Professional art conservator here. I agree, just get your ideas down the best you know how, and in a 100 years if the paint is flaking, you’re giving a conservator a job
This came up in my feed, even though I'm not a plein air painter, and I couldn't agree more. I do mixed media collage work, and started making my own irregularly-shaped panels from layers of cardboard coated with layer after layer of whatever acid-free recycled paper I can get my hands on, with visible top layers that are usually some combination of book pages and sketch paper that I've made marks on with India ink or charcoal. I'm also using up my old hoard of yellowing student-grade cold-press watercolor paper and too-small stretched canvases by giving them the same treatment. They're dirt cheap, and a lot of fun to make and to work on, and don't look like anything else out there. And by the time I'm done with any given piece, it's covered in so many layers of glue, acrylic paints and media, plus a coat of varnish, it's pretty tough. But I've had other artists go into a tizzy because they might not be archival! Oh, no! The horror! And I've kept telling them that if my work stands the test of time, and is still loved in a hundred years, I'll be keeping future paper conservators in business. For now, I'm just going to have fun with the process of making art and improving my skills for my own enjoyment, without geting hung up on what might happen to it in the far-distant future. Oh, yeah-and I do use house paint instead of gesso, because I'm a very bad artist like that, LOL.
Thanks for sharing, I've always used any type of wood base surfaces like mdf rather than stretched canvas that could end up torn where as hardboard is much cheaper and tougher!
Those who have the compulsion to paint, to create art, will paint on any surface with anything that produces the desired outcome. The ancients painted on rock walls, in caves, on bark etc and some of those have lasted tens of thousands of years. Today we have more choice than ever before, some of which is extraordinarily expensive, but the cost of materials does not equate to originality, skill or saleability. Most certainly, as you say, in the beginning all it achieves is increasing profits for the art supply manufacturers.
I paint on everything. Glass, polyethylene canvas, cotton, linen, plastic, paper, aluminium, wood, MDF, Pyrex, you name it. I paint with cheap acrylic, oil, pva mix, resin, metal paint,just about anything. Ill use brushes, sponges, trowels, rollers, just about anythinf i can pick up. There are only 3 things that a required - have a good primer, good gesso (where applicable) and a really good sealant.
Thank you Stefan. I have learned so much from your videos over the past few years. And now with your book to referance by, I'm delighted. Stay inspired & inspiring.🙏🖌🎨
I bought the book. You changed what I paint on when you did an earlier version of this video. One thing I never got about the primer is whether when spraying auto body primer, and letting it dry, one needs to use that board pronto. Normally with things like sand blasting (obviously very different in how it activates a surface), and primer one is trying to use the surface within a day or so. When you prep a board do you care when you use it? Would you spray enough for a year, or a week? I'm not worrying about archival, I worry more about when the next garbage pickup is, and that they cancelled the weekly pickup. But for some people, it would be worth knowing how you handle the situation. As a boat builder, we test paints with a scratch test if we are doing something new. You paint a sample of your board/primer/ paint (in the art case). You let it dry thoroughly. You then score the surface with a box cutter on a 1 inch grid. You then apply masking tape, thoroughly rubbing it down, and you rip the tape off, right away. If the paint doesn't lift, you have a good bond. This is an industry standard method. To give the tape a chance, one needs to have a smooth, thin surface of the applied paint, as if one was painting the wall of a room. This determines whether the interlayer bond is sound. It won't tell you whether your acrylic paint will fall apart within itself, but thankfully we don't need to worry too much about that with oil paint.
Strathmore 500 and 300 series illustration board is good for almost any media except oils. 100% cotton rag acid free archival. A 10 pack of 20"x30 is around $135 ordered online. Dibond or other brands of ACM or ACP, aluminum composite panel, is popular. Light weight and available pre primed in sizes up to 4'x8' costing around $150/4'X8 sheet depending on the brand. Usually used for signs . Easily cut by scoring 1 side and snapping like sheetrock. Ralph Mayer in his famous book written decades ago about artists materials says that metal may well be the best painting support in the future if prepped and primed correctly. Galvanized sheet metal can be good for a variety of reasons but the prep is a hassle which can be avoided with the pre primed material which is not always easy to find. 27 gauge is good.
I've used acm for years and love it. I don't like the primer from the manufacturer, though. Far too slippery. I also don't like applying gesso or even oil primer to the panels. I much prefer the feel and look of a fine oil primed canvas. I mount the canvas to the acm to achieve a rigid support that has the texture and feel that I like. For larger sizes I use acm with a corrugated core. Lighter weight and more rigid.
I worked on all type of canvas and boards and by far nothing can beat an oil primed linen canvas, it’s so smooth and nice to work on. You can definitely paint on any surface and come up with a masterpiece but when having the right tools and skills things go smooth. Also you never know when your work can be in a museum, do you think Van Gogh knew that his work will be in museum one day? No I found that statement very discouraging especially for those beginners
Not only was the canvas used for larger works, originating in Venice , a nautical trading port, but the use of oil as a vehicle for pigments at that early Renaissance time simultaneously allowed the flexible substrate. Tempera cracks on anything flexible.
My professor taught us not to use Winton as he had a sold painting that was hung over a fireplace and also was subjected to sun over time. The client wanted him to fix some damage from the heat and sun, but he couldnt get the Winton to match even tbough he knew the proper mixture. There simply was not enough pigment in the Winton student grade paint and once the painting aged in those conditions, there was no colormatching to be done.
@@StefanBaumannHe was NOT a snob! He warned us about the lightfastness of Winton over the artist grade and showed us what his experience was. Maybe you’re the snob?
I do something similar cheap, effective. But I do beg to differ with you. One of my paintings was accepted into a museum and I can only hope it will still be on display 100 years from now. MOBA, the Museum of Bad Art honored me by accepting my obra. I couldn't be more proud.
There's also a question in "archival" of, what do you expect the display conditions to actually be. Works made for reproduction(as with most illustration) will often use materials that don't last, since the point is to get it printed, and the prints can be the thing that are made to last. I'm not an oil artist, so the board vs canvas discussion is new to me, but I post a lot of ink drawings on social media. That means the experienced work is digital, so the thing to archive is probably that digital form too. In that way, I got over myself, and I'll do drawings with Bic Cristals and Papermate Flairs on a sketchbook I got at Daiso for $2. I'll do that knowing that there would be more longevity in using lampblack pigment on Strathmore bristol - and I have that stuff too - but if I work with that, it's probably because I want a heavier surface that leaves the lines unfeathered, versus the prospect of "what happens to it after 50 years".
I paint on Claessens oil primed 13DPS, probably their smoothest/finest linen as it has around 6 layers of oil primer. The regular 13 is 2 layers, 13DP is 4 and 13DPS is 5 or 6. Tried other brands of oil primed linen, painted on mdf, aluminium, polyester etc, tried all sorts of primers over the years. Nothing has the same feel and results I get from the Claessens 13DPS though. I buy the full 10m long x 2m wide roll. My first small 8" x 8" painting pays for the whole roll and everything thereafter is profit. 🙂
I also purchase canvas (Claessens) rolls. A couple of finishes but always oil primed. I paint larger on stretched, though will paint on a 18x24 or so on aluminum WITH canvas adhered to it with Miracle Muck. The feel of stretched linen cannot be matched.
@@billfargo7911 Yes I also prefer the feel of oil primed linen over just priming a board. But I do prefer rigid surface over stretched so I always make my own canvas panels, also on aluminum composite material. For smaller sizes I use the solid core and for larger sizes I use the corrugated core. Not criticizing your preference of stretched canvas. Everyone has different sensitivities to the feel and look of how paint is applied. There is no one-size-fits-all option. Everyone should find what suits them best.
I paint on plywood, and while I generally have to pay for it, I do end up with quite a lot left over from boats I build for fun. That said, some people are maybe not going for it. Here are a few other options. 1) If you really want art store canvas, but maybe a little better that what you can get from Michaels. You can get rolls of it, heavily primed, from Amazon. It is still coarse, but it is a lot better filled than what we have from the big boxes. You can stretch it on frames, they also sell those, but I just cut them out and tape or otherwise fit them to an easel board. Works for practice pieces. And a lot of people use them or maybe linen roll material as their preferred approach. What some people do is make a sheet that will hold several pieces, then tape them off, possibly with enough space to wrap on a frame, but there are other options. A medium sized piece has some mass and stability. You get very clean edges when you remove the tap. One advantage is that if you are at a stage where you want to keep some work, then you can store this material without much bulk, once it is truly dry. 2) You can buy muslim, which is a very light and sometimes dense cotton. It has a fine texture like portrait linen (ie, nearly as good as wood). The reason one can't use such light material for framed canvases is because it is not strong enough. That is where linen comes in. A light linen is still very strong. But what you do with the Muslin is glue it to a backer, either plywood, or the foam boards, that are a good choice for hiking in. You can do it cold, but I have a T-shirt press so I use that. If will stick if you use archival white glue and a squeegee. Backpacking is the only situation where I would use it. If you use it, you still have to gesso it. 3) In Canada the national gallery, or some such authority did a wide ranging examination of supports for painting. I don't know what, other than archival qualities, were their considerations. Their recommendation was dacron fabric handled like a canvas. It is very fine textured, strong, and does not stretch much. It is reasonably cheap. I guess one gessos it. Might be interesting for a very large project since it is incredibly light.
When I started painting, I used loose canvas sheets from the Fredrix pads, taped to a piece of cardboard. Worked well for learning, but you can't escape the texture. Thanks for your video!
This is so true! I use these pads from Fredrix but have exactly the same issue. I have tried gesso but even that doesn’t help. It’s also expensive to frame canvases.
Thank you for this video. I never liked painting on canvas, and there is no need as I’m not going to roll them to transport by horse rider, cart, or galleon. You said plywood and I like low moisture smooth 1/4” to 1/2” thick material. I do prefer to prep the surface with a smooth cotton fabric adhered with wood glue. Linen is too waxy. Then I ground with readymade gesso for small panels. I’ve tried different gesso recipes and I mix wet drywall compound and white PVA glue for the first coat. After sanding I optionally add to the second coat, colorant, diatomaceous earth (for tooth), Fuller’s earth (for oil absorption). Finally, coat with a titanium white paint (oil or acrylic). Takes time but can be done in batches. The cost is a fraction of art shop panels. The best part is finding an excellent vintage custom frame and being able to make a panel that fits it.
Enjoyed the content, I have come to this realization recently, I started painting on cheap canvases and just felt unhappy with the process for the longest time, the way the paint laid on the canvas just made me feel like my process was wrong and I stopped for a while. I’m a multimedia artist and so as I got more money i shifted to Masters Touch Deep canvases, so much better. I do gesso my canvases, mainly because I like to texture the canvas in a thick way. But I have shifted now from canvases to panel boards. My thinking is that they are easier to transport/store/sell/ship whether at art shops or from my studio. The only time I paint on canvas now is for art I’m keeping or gifting, or an original. I will be using spray paint as my base soon, gesso is just to costly now to justify increasing the prices for the customer, spray paint is half the price and does farther. Thanks for intellectual spur, happy painting all!
The old masters faced the pores problem with the half measure of varnishing the piece after the painted work had dried. This would bring back some of the illumination that Mr. Baumann mentioned, but I'm intrigued by the white "auto primer" method he mentioned (BEFORE the multi colors of the painting are started). It's available in your choise of spray or small can. I also want to try black primer to make a cheezy "Elvis on velvet" spoof.
Thanks for the tip on using automotive primer. I sand, re-prime and reuse the old canvases that don’t sell. It’ll save a lot of time if I have a rush job and nothing prepped.
You could also use a bed sheet, natural fabric well gummed down - with your preferred media - to your chosen base. It’s just about making the effort which is rewarded by knowning the whole work is your creation.
I like canvas. I like the intensity of the expensive paints. Some of the less expensive paints are OK, but don’t have the same amount of pigment in them. I don’t think of the costs when I paint. I prioritize having art supplies.
Great video, thanks. I always wanted canvas but it's expensive. My favorite artist is Maxfield Parrish. I own 5 prints from the 1920s. As a pianist, your reference made me smile.
I have alot of canvasses to use up... was thinking of going to mdf!!! Thanks for the confirmation. Can I spray my existing canvases with rustolean auto printer instead of gesso?
Bravo....we outside of America - love you: The Most important thing for artist is - work❤ who would say that😁(they usualy think colors, canvases, brushes...😁
Every real artist knows this. I used to work in studios where there was some quite prominent successful artists and their studios had plenty of Winton paint, emulsion etc hanging about. I think they generally underpaint and build up with lower quality paint and then finish off with the expensive stuff, or use cheap earths and blues and more expensive warm cadmiums.
I had to learn this the hard way! Glad I had the experience with canvas I did in case I ever have to stretch and unstretch a large painting to sell across the country! Also I like using grifitto and canvas doesn’t hold up as well!
Based on the comments, I feel like I might get yelled at for saying this... but could you not just gesso/sand the canvas a few times to get a smooth surface? That's how to get rid of the texture of the canvas. The gesso fills the pores, leaving a smooth surface. A canvas right out of the plastic will be rough, sure, but you can prepare the surface how ever smooth you like. For practice, you can buy packs of small canvases for like $20 for 5 canvases. I get 16"x20" canvases for $4 a piece that way.
Wouldn't mdf be far cheaper still? my local hardware store sells 6mm thickness, 2440 x 1220mm for $25.90, that's $8.99 per square meter, and if I want 3mm thickness then It's only $15.81 which is $5.49 for a square meter. This is in AUD
Smooth side or rough side of MDF board?? I actually love the rough side. I don’t do crazy detailed realism. I do a modern version of Pointillism. It’s funny because I love MDF boards but I actually felt funny going to Home Depot getting them cut and then charging $$$$ for my work. Home Depot and Rustoleum here I come!!!!🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉😢
the better my paintings went the crappiest my base is. now im just working on primed paper. I work in oils quite fast so I know I will just be doing so many
I've been thinking about painting on boards recently because i am not able to access canvas right now so boards is the only option, i just hope its the right move.
I'm transitioning from watercolor to oil painting. Thank you for this tip. My teacher says to always use an oil based primer, not gesso. Your tip on spraying automotive primer is genius. Really appreciate this ❤
Blanket statements by teachers are bad. That includes both your teacher as well as what is taught in this video. While I also personally prefer oil based primer, I know a lot of artists who prefer gesso because they perform differently. Each artist is unique and has their own sensitivities and ways to apply the paint and have different tastes in the finished look. Each primer DOES look and feel different, contrary to what this video suggests. In fact the video contradicts itself. He says he prefers oil primer, then later says that you cannot tell the difference with automotive primer once you learn how to use it. That is a contradiction and it completely false. Their is a difference in look and feel. Find the primer that suits your style. There are pros and cons of oil based. There are pros and cons of gesso. There are pros and cons of spray-on acrylic automotive primer. Pros and cons to oil based spray-on automotive primer. Experiment and find what suits you best rather than what others tell you is best for them. And there is also the traditional gesso which is made of rabbit skin glue and marble dust (calcium carbonate). They aren't available commercially to my knowledge, but they can be made in your studio. That may be something to also experiment with if you want. Completely different feel and look. Find what works for you.
Hi Stefan, great advice thank you. yes painting on canvas is frustrating because also the pores cause the paint to lay unevenly unless you really pile it on. It is hard to create precision and sharp line work. Is amber shellac just as good as primer and gesso?
There's a lotta materials available that they didn't have before the 20th century. MDF, HDF (Hardboard/masonite), foamboard, plastics like yupo and dura-bright, aluminum panels... There's even people painting on the GLASS that comes with frames!
I started painting on mdf, then I was afraid it wouldn't be professional, and michaels had a sale with 60% off so I bought several to learn how to paint on canvas. But my biggest fear is shipping, and given the prices in Canada for shipping a canvas, I can't even imagine shipping a painting on mdf.😅
Fantastic advice. Art supplies are extortionately expensive and do not improve your skills proportionately . Literally deters you from using it! You become a collector of art supplies rather than an artist 😅
I think if you think your work as an artist is good or even great, go for the good stuff. I save a lot of money making my oil primed linen canvas from scratch and not bound by conventional store bought dimensions. Stretchers, rolls of good smooth linen, tacks, rsg, lead primer applied with pallet knife. Super smooth unlike anything you can buy and a joy to paint on with oils. And, if a painting does not work, it can be reused by applying another layer of oil primer over it. It is not for everyone because the making of canvas like this is hard work and time and space.
Yes! Agreed! I have always made my own from day 1. It's far more cost effective and you get better quality. I switched to gluing my canvas to panels years ago because I prefer a rigid support, but I've also stretched many canvases in my day. Making your own is the way to go. And primed boards do not feel or look the same as a good quality oil primed linen.
i only bought so far cheap canvases for 5-8€uro /50x70cm because at this size mdf becomes a problem in term of what do you do with it later on? the canvas can be hung on the wall and it sits there, the mdf would need a frame which drives the cost up and you cant lay them over each other when you painted a little bit thicker.
"Archival enough" includes archival for the middle term. I have works on paper that I made when I was half my current age, that are a crumbling, yellowing mess. It seems to me that a middle-aged collector has a right to expect that the work they buy will last into their old age in a condition such that their heirs will have to decide whether to display it or to sell it-rather than both options being absurd because of deterioration. AND, I think this is an appropriate expectation for any art that is good enough that another person wants to pay some money for the privilege of living with it--NOT just for the few ionospheric super-stars. Works on paper are especially vulnerable; I think that oil painting on your auto-primed mdf is probably OK. But even there, your students should be looking at the lightfastness of their pigments, not thinking that archival qualities are for someone else, not them.
I believe most of this video is about practicing, my 0.02 is take Stefan’s advice so you can practice a lot, but A LOT. Even the masters practiced on paper and other surfaces. When you are ready to do work that you really care and want to keep for a long time or sell, then spend you money but do it wisely.
Good quality paper properly primed will not yellow or get damaged by oils. I have 20 year old paintings on cardboard and 10 year old paintings on paper, there are absolutely no signs of aging if you examine them.
Is there a substitute for Ampersand? They are over priced. But on the other hand I can’t seem to find a wood panel that doesn’t warp or bend. Options are birch wood, basswood plywood, and MDF
I'm wondering how you are prepping your panels? I use birch plywood sealed front, back and all sides because it is mainly moisture that causes warping. If your panels are very thin you may have cradle them to prevent warping
MDF is so heavy! Not cost effective when you need to ship them to buyers. Maybe ok to practice on until you are good, but too heavyto ship. And aren't they bad if they get wet? Don't they swell?
aluminum composite material (acm) is comparable in price if you buy from a sign supplier and is much lighter in weight. It is less prone to expansion / contraction issues and wont swell if they get wet. Far superior product. But not available locally in small towns or small cities. My closest supplier is 80 miles away, but they offer free deliver with a minimum order that I easily reach buying one or two panels. For a small fee they well even cut the large sheets down to smaller sizes for me that is well worth it for me. I don't prime the acm directly (though you can and I've tried it), but I prefer to mount linen to the acm. Great, durable lightweight, rigid panels.
@@keithbond9423 That's actually not true at all...acm is far far more expensive compared to mdf board, even with a sign supplier. MDF board is literally a fraction of the price lol...
I think he is saying a large panel is $60.00 which is about what I pay for a 4x8 foot panel this will provide 24 9x12 inch panels, making the cost per 9x12 approximately $2.30
Hello there stefon. I just found out about this surface for painting called ACM aluminum panels. I just wanted your opinion on them. Are they any good? Thanks
@@StefanBaumann but when you paint on big panels they get heavy and i really don't like the texture of canvas or lenin. Plus shipping heavy painting is way more expensive (where i live at least)
@@Mohamed-tr7fi ACM is a lot heavier than MDF. I don't like MDF. I like to use good plywood it weighs a lot less. So that would be marine grade or aircraft or baltic birch for small work you can get some doorskins and they are tremendous quality and about 10 bucks for a 7' x 36" sheet. We even used to make boats out of them at one time. We are talking about 3 and 4mm material. It weighs a bout 3-6 ounces a square foot. my 3mm ACM weights about a pound a sqare foot. The people who use ACM are convinced it is the most archival material that there is. I doubt it because it is not designed as an art product, and there is a brand, but some big stores carry something they found somewhere, nice quality at my local, but it is pre finished for some kind of outdoor use on one side, and seemingly raw on the other. The raw side is pretty shinny so there might be something on it. If you look into what you have to do to properly bond to Al i involves and acid wash, and epoxy coating. So you can try something else, but it would be pretty much guess work. The meat in the sandwich is some kind of plastic. I mean it will last too long unless you are in the top .1%. But they are thinking in hundreds or thousands of years. And we are talking about all kinds of unproven materials coming together. A lot of things could happen.
When I studied art in the early 1980s, the requirement in a painting class by an abstract expressionist that we work on 36 x 48 inch stretched canvases seemed primarily designed to intimidate the mostly women students. Someone's husband made completed stretcher frame equivalents in his woodshop for us so all we had to do was stretch and gesso, and lug the things to/from/through a downtown city campus. I got on better with visiting figurative artists who did not have rigid demands for grounds used, and made use of smaller commercial stretched canvases or recycled those big stretchers. Work centered on print/documentation/presentation production, so art is for myself and has suffered from earlier not making peace with bad working spaces at home, should have been furiously sketchbooking and prepping 3D pieces to paint. Did take some classes from an illustrator to warm up and lose some intimidation re working with good materials and on collectible pieces. Have boards, sketchbooks, and artist resin models, and will be working in acrylic, gouache, and colored pencils (and other low-dust media) as the home studio solution for a quarter of a larger bedroom space that will also have a computer station, half the library, and some display/storage. Do what you realistically can in your now; I'll be sketching and prepping and preparing spaces until I get my current thesis done.
for working with acrylics, Golden recommends sealing the bare panel with their gloss medium, let it dry, then you are good to go. may I add to seal both sides and all edges for protection against humidity and potential warping.
I don’t know if this is really great advice… I mean, certainly there is a case to be made for looking at alternative surfaces besides stretched canvas- I have no problem with that. I mean, I do like painting on stretched canvas, & I don’t really think all of your criticisms are legitimate… Like, the visibility of the weave is a very silly reason to reject canvas altogether… You can literally prime a canvas to have as much texture (or even structure, if you use molding pastes & stuff like that) , or as little texture as you want… I grant you that it takes a little effort to prepare a canvas… But I would be doing something similar to pretty much any surface to ensure good paint adhesion & the kind of surface I want to be working on… If you want it very smooth, all you have to do is apply a few of layers of gesso. If you really want it perfectly smooth, apply them with a roller or a palette knife/trowel or whatever works for you. If you deem it necessary (you’ll get a feel for what works as you practice & experiment over time) then sand each layer in between applications… But even without sanding, if you’re careful you can get a VERY smooth surface with gesso. And then if you prefer oil primed, you can put the oil primer on top of that. Otherwise, you can paint acrylics or oils directly into acrylic gesso… There’s no reason you HAVE to accept the texture of the weave being visible, & painters who use canvas have dealt with it in this manner for quite a while. Personally, I often like to have a little bit of a fresco-like texture, so I don’t always intend to make it perfectly flat, but with gesso alone you can achieve a huge spectrum of textural effects, & as long as it’s thick enough to obscure the weave, you won’t see it (it can actually be a very cool touch to have it show through in certain spots & not others, if you do so in an elegant way). And if you add in other options for preparation, like molding pastes, absorbent grounds, etc., there is plenty you can do with a canvas besides just having such a thin primer on it that the weave/pores are visible. Anyway, setting that argument aside, I agree that stretched canvases can be very costly (a lot of the serious painters who really like canvas will stretch their own, or will hold canvas taut against a board in some way that keeps it flat to paint without actually stretching it, because loose canvas is much cheaper to transport/ship, as it can be rolled up, saving a lot of space when you need to transport a lot of large paintings for a show, though obviously the exact medium & specific materials you’re using are a big factor in how safely it can be rolled up once dry without cracking or otherwise becoming permanently distorted- but yeah, approaching canvas in ways that doesn’t require you to pay a premium for pre-stretched canvases, because a 100 sq foot roll of duck canvas or whatever is a lot cheaper than 100 sq feet of pre-stretched canvases, for example. Aside from cost, I think the biggest issues with stretched canvases are having to ship/transport them (which is only even worse with a huge, bulky, heavy MDF board), the risk of expanding or contracting due to environmental reasons (MDF also has the issue that if it isn’t PERFECTLY sealed, it can absorb moisture, which can ultimately lead to warping)… The fact that a stretch canvas is vulnerable to being pierced by a sharp object (MDF is definitely a bit more durable, but still pretty infamous for being soft & easily dented/gouged/otherwise damaged by impacts)… And, depending on what kind of project you’re doing, the fact that a stretched canvas CAN sag or be dented in can be a problem. For example, if you’re doing acrylic pouring, or anything else where you apply a lot of very heavy, dense material, that can cause the center to sag inward, which can cause fluid designs to distort before they dry, or can cause cracking/adhesion problems, or what have you; you generally don’t want a painting surface to distort after it’s painted, unless it’s a very flexible medium & you intend to roll it up. So that’s a consideration which isn’t necessarily a concern for the average oil or acrylic painter, just painting in average thickness layers with a brush… But I like pouring, & layering thickly, so it’s something I keep in mind. In that respect MDF is surely preferable, but so is any rigid support. Oh, also, MDF may out-gas formaldehyde & other carcinogenic fumes, so… Also a consideration- especially depending on where you’re keeping all of these MDF paintings. I don’t actually know how perfectly you can seal these boards to prevent moisture getting in or carcinogenic fumes getting out, if you were very rigorous & seal every side perfectly (maybe that’d work, or maybe as soon as anything happens that creates a crack, it’s going to be releasing them all the same), but if you’re just spraying the painting side with auto-primer in a very slap-dash fashion to save time, then the rest of it certainly isn’t sealed, so you’ll surely have both of those factors to contend with… I’m also not sure what the tannin content of MDF board is like- it probably depends on what adhesives are used in it, but that can also damage an oil painting… But even assuming that it has no acidity problems (or the auto-primer blocks the acids effectively)… I wouldn’t want a bunch of big sheets of MDF board accumulating in my home or studio, potentially releasing carcinogens (I don’t even feel great about having one that I use to work on top of, but I doubt that a single ~2 foot by 2 foot sheet has TOO big of an effect, as long as there’s decent ventilation). I’d be very worried about how soft & prone to damage it might be, the potentially less-than-archival quality… I mean, for practice sessions, experimenting, studies, by all means- paint on whatever you want (just like if you aren’t expecting to sell it as a final product, or hoping for it to last, there’s no reason you can’t draw on newsprint, or in a notebook, or whatever)! And if that’s all you can afford, do what you have to do… But I think that talking as if MDF is as good a surface as an artist EVER needs… Even as a professional… You’re definitely getting what you’re paying for with MDF. There’s good reason that you don’t see a ton of paintings on MDF in museums or galleries, even though it’s so cheap & available… If you’re trying to make something that will last, & that will be professional, & really serve its function well as a painting surface, you kind of need to be a bit more selective than that. Again, if you fully seal every side, maybe you can get away with using it… But by then, are you really saving all that much labor over just taking the time to properly apply a few layers of gesso to a superior surface? You’re still having to apply a primer several times, cover every edge, be very diligent, & in the end your surface still has the flaws inherent to MDF, & if that primer seal ever gets broken then the protection won’t necessarily last (AFAIK primer is also just not a 100% perfect, impenetrable barrier; if it was, there would be no problem with using high tannin wood panels, because you could just apply a couple layers of primer & know the acids will never touch the paint; over time, or with physical damage, the protection can be breached, so you want as few tannins/acids, as little moisture vulnerability, & so on, as possible in the surface to start with.
What I’d recommend is what I’ve seen recommended as the ideal oil painting surface, if you can find a good supplier: ACM panel/board. Aluminum Composite Material panels contain no acids (bigger deal for oil painting; with acrylics, a low-tannin wood is really probably fine, but I’d still generally invest in something higher quality than fiber or particle board; hardboard intended for painting purposes can be fine, or a proper wood panel made from a low-tannin wood type). It’s really hard & durable- I’m sure it can be dented/nicked if you hit it hard enough, but it’s a lot denser & harder than MDF. It can be easily cut to size. It’s basically PERFECTLY smooth by default. Has a nice weight to it, but without being prohibitively heavy for hanging/display (it may get pretty heavy at larger sizes, but it’s literally made industrially for use in businesses signs, or in wall panels, so it’s presumed that it’ll be up, vertical, on or near a wall anyway. And if can be pricey if you just buy individual panels at an art supply store (as with every other kind of board & panel & canvas), but if you can find the kind of supplier who sells in bulk to businesses for signage & such, you can get HUGE surfaces very cheaply, cut them down to whatever size you want, & have your surfaces taken care of for way cheaper than most surfaces while getting top archival quality (just make sure it’s one of the kinds that is suitable for painting; it can get a little confusing when they’re selling different types for other industrial uses). The only real downsides are: 1. That you do have to bother with finding a supplier, ideally in your area, in order to get the good pricing. 2. It does take some prep work to get it ready. You can find great illustrated guides & videos on how to prepare ACM board/panel for oil painting online so I won’t explain here, but it involves scuffing the aluminum surface (WEAR A RESPIRATOR- don’t inhale particles of aluminum), rinsing the dust away typically with isopropyl alcohol, & then priming it… There are certain things you don’t want to mess up, so definitely use a guide/tutorial the first time or two. But it’s not rocket science, & isn’t much more work, really, than dealing & gessoing wood panel, or priming canvas until the weave is covered, or whatever. 3. As with other kinds of panel/board, I guess it is a downside that you kind of need a frame, or some kind of comparable hardware, in order to hang it up… Wood panel, ACM, MDF- they’re all just flat rectangular prisms, & the painting presumably covers the whole thing, so you don’t want to drill holes straight into it… So if you’re ever going to put it in a gallery or something, a lot of them require artwork to be wired, or to have some kind of hanging mechanism, & the only real option for these surfaces is to frame them, which maybe you were going to do anyway, but it can be an pricey additional expense, depending on the size & weight & so on… Again, the weight of MDF gets really burdensome really fast- if you ever had to ship paintings that were more than a foot or so in each direction, & they’re on MDF board, sealed, that will add up like CRAZY. I know just from hauling this 2x2 board (which is only like 3/4 inch or 1 inch thick), this stuff is big & bulky & heavy. Whereas ACM panel is a lot thinner, sleeker, & still not LIGHT, but certainly more manageable. So, potential con that you can’t just stick ACM panels up on the wall on their own… One thing I do really love about stretched canvas, aside from how light they are (the same 3x2 foot painting that would be a pain to haul around on MDF board, you could basically carry one-handed on stretched canvas), is that- as long as the wood stretcher framing is thick & quality enough to take screws properly, as most gallery-wrapped pre-stretched canvas ought to be, you can literally just drill holes, screw some eye screws in, & wire the stretcher bars directly, & then you can hang the painting without the need for a frame or anything else beyond a hanger rated to support the weight of the painting. That said, being that ACM is so perfectly flat & rigid, it shouldn’t be a problem to frame it in most cases, unless there’s a lot of thick texturing on the front or something. Anyway, it’s a great, potentially affordable alternative that is ideal for oils & doesn’t come with so many downsides & risks. Higher quality wood panels can also be great for acrylics, but again… Acids are a way bigger issue for oil paintings, so I would only use wood panel for a serious oil painting if it’s a tannin-free/very low-tannin wood, & even then you’d ideally seal it thoroughly, just to be safe. This is the kind of care in preparation that may be a little boring, a little tedious, but just out of respect for your own work, & for anyone who might potentially buy it in the future, it’s worth going the extra mile (or at least taking these minimal precautions). Worst case scenario is that you half-ass the preparation, start painting, end up making something you actually LOVE & want to last, & think you could sell… But then it ends up having really serious archivability/lightfastness/acid damage/moisture damage problems or what have you because you didn’t bother to start from a strong foundation. It’s much better IMO to put in the effort up front, & then even if that painting doesn’t work out, you can eventually repurpose it & you’ll still have the strong foundations you put in place to rebuild on. It’s obviously harder to reuse a surface in oil painting, because you might have to wait a YEAR or more for it to fully cure, vs having the freedom to re-gesso a surface like 5 minutes after you finish an acrylic painting if you don’t like it, & restart that day, but that’s just a trade-off of the medium, & you technically can still reuse one… It just has a way longer turn-around. Anyway, not trying to discourage anyone from having fun with a DIY art project with whatever materials they have available. It’s not a matter of elitism. But if you are trying to do it professionally, & if you want your work to last, this stuff is important to think about.
@@SomethingImpromptu I agree that ACM is the best option on the market. And it is surprisingly affordable as you mention from a sign supply store. I will add though, that for larger sizes, I use the acm with a corrugated core. They are lighter in weight and much more rigid. But they do cost more than the solid core. Definitely worth it for me, though, with the larger sizes. Most acm that I see comes with a white smooth coating which can be painted directly on if you want, but it is far too slippery for my style. Lightly sanding it is needed. Yes, you can prime over it with primer of choice, whether acrylic gesso or oil based primer. However I love the look and feel of a nice oil primed linen. I buy linen in rolls and glue them to the acm panels. I agree with @SomethingImpromptu that MDF is a terrible choice.
Professional art conservator here. I agree, just get your ideas down the best you know how, and in a 100 years if the paint is flaking, you’re giving a conservator a job
Im PRO JOB
Finally, some common sense and realism on this topic!!
Thanks for the kind words
This came up in my feed, even though I'm not a plein air painter, and I couldn't agree more. I do mixed media collage work, and started making my own irregularly-shaped panels from layers of cardboard coated with layer after layer of whatever acid-free recycled paper I can get my hands on, with visible top layers that are usually some combination of book pages and sketch paper that I've made marks on with India ink or charcoal. I'm also using up my old hoard of yellowing student-grade cold-press watercolor paper and too-small stretched canvases by giving them the same treatment. They're dirt cheap, and a lot of fun to make and to work on, and don't look like anything else out there. And by the time I'm done with any given piece, it's covered in so many layers of glue, acrylic paints and media, plus a coat of varnish, it's pretty tough.
But I've had other artists go into a tizzy because they might not be archival! Oh, no! The horror!
And I've kept telling them that if my work stands the test of time, and is still loved in a hundred years, I'll be keeping future paper conservators in business. For now, I'm just going to have fun with the process of making art and improving my skills for my own enjoyment, without geting hung up on what might happen to it in the far-distant future.
Oh, yeah-and I do use house paint instead of gesso, because I'm a very bad artist like that, LOL.
ego bites thanks for the kind word
Thanks for sharing, I've always used any type of wood base surfaces like mdf rather than stretched canvas that could end up torn where as hardboard is much cheaper and tougher!
Those who have the compulsion to paint, to create art, will paint on any surface with anything that produces the desired outcome. The ancients painted on rock walls, in caves, on bark etc and some of those have lasted tens of thousands of years. Today we have more choice than ever before, some of which is extraordinarily expensive, but the cost of materials does not equate to originality, skill or saleability. Most certainly, as you say, in the beginning all it achieves is increasing profits for the art supply manufacturers.
I’m so glad you confirmed that it’s ok to paint on wood!!!
I paint on everything. Glass, polyethylene canvas, cotton, linen, plastic, paper, aluminium, wood, MDF, Pyrex, you name it. I paint with cheap acrylic, oil, pva mix, resin, metal paint,just about anything. Ill use brushes, sponges, trowels, rollers, just about anythinf i can pick up. There are only 3 things that a required - have a good primer, good gesso (where applicable) and a really good sealant.
I like how you end the video with "stop watching my videos and go paint"
Brutal, honest, informative! Love it! Thank you for sharing! 🖌🎨💖
Thank you Stefan. I have learned so much from your videos over the past few years. And now with your book to referance by, I'm delighted. Stay inspired & inspiring.🙏🖌🎨
I love painting on wood, its unbelievable 😊😊😊
I bought the book.
You changed what I paint on when you did an earlier version of this video. One thing I never got about the primer is whether when spraying auto body primer, and letting it dry, one needs to use that board pronto. Normally with things like sand blasting (obviously very different in how it activates a surface), and primer one is trying to use the surface within a day or so. When you prep a board do you care when you use it? Would you spray enough for a year, or a week?
I'm not worrying about archival, I worry more about when the next garbage pickup is, and that they cancelled the weekly pickup. But for some people, it would be worth knowing how you handle the situation.
As a boat builder, we test paints with a scratch test if we are doing something new. You paint a sample of your board/primer/ paint (in the art case). You let it dry thoroughly. You then score the surface with a box cutter on a 1 inch grid. You then apply masking tape, thoroughly rubbing it down, and you rip the tape off, right away. If the paint doesn't lift, you have a good bond. This is an industry standard method. To give the tape a chance, one needs to have a smooth, thin surface of the applied paint, as if one was painting the wall of a room. This determines whether the interlayer bond is sound. It won't tell you whether your acrylic paint will fall apart within itself, but thankfully we don't need to worry too much about that with oil paint.
Strathmore 500 and 300 series illustration board is good for almost any media except oils. 100% cotton rag acid free archival. A 10 pack of 20"x30 is around $135 ordered online.
Dibond or other brands of ACM or ACP, aluminum composite panel, is popular. Light weight and available pre primed in sizes up to 4'x8' costing around $150/4'X8 sheet depending on the brand. Usually used for signs . Easily cut by scoring 1 side and snapping like sheetrock. Ralph Mayer in his famous book written decades ago about artists materials says that metal may well be the best painting support in the future if prepped and primed correctly. Galvanized sheet metal can be good for a variety of reasons but the prep is a hassle which can be avoided with the pre primed material which is not always easy to find. 27 gauge is good.
I've used acm for years and love it. I don't like the primer from the manufacturer, though. Far too slippery. I also don't like applying gesso or even oil primer to the panels. I much prefer the feel and look of a fine oil primed canvas. I mount the canvas to the acm to achieve a rigid support that has the texture and feel that I like. For larger sizes I use acm with a corrugated core. Lighter weight and more rigid.
I worked on all type of canvas and boards and by far nothing can beat an oil primed linen canvas, it’s so smooth and nice to work on.
You can definitely paint on any surface and come up with a masterpiece but when having the right tools and skills things go smooth.
Also you never know when your work can be in a museum, do you think Van Gogh knew that his work will be in museum one day? No
I found that statement very discouraging especially for those beginners
Thank you. My husband cuts my boards for me. I prefer the boards over canvas. 👍🤗
Thank you, I always learn something when I listen to you.
That is why I do the videos, Just for you!
Not only was the canvas used for larger works, originating in Venice , a nautical trading port, but the use of oil as a vehicle for pigments at that early Renaissance time simultaneously allowed the flexible substrate. Tempera cracks on anything flexible.
My professor taught us not to use Winton as he had a sold painting that was hung over a fireplace and also was subjected to sun over time. The client wanted him to fix some damage from the heat and sun, but he couldnt get the Winton to match even tbough he knew the proper mixture. There simply was not enough pigment in the Winton student grade paint and once the painting aged in those conditions, there was no colormatching to be done.
I know lots of professional aritst in major gallerys that use Winton your teacher was a snob
@@StefanBaumannHe was NOT a snob! He warned us about the lightfastness of Winton over the artist grade and showed us what his experience was. Maybe you’re the snob?
My eyebrows were touching my hairline the whole time m! Yeah!!! 🙏🙏🙏👌👌🙌🙌🙌
I do something similar cheap, effective. But I do beg to differ with you. One of my paintings was accepted into a museum and I can only hope it will still be on display 100 years from now. MOBA, the Museum of Bad Art honored me by accepting my obra. I couldn't be more proud.
I wish it was a requirement to watch this video before you start art practice in oil paint. Thank you ❤
There's also a question in "archival" of, what do you expect the display conditions to actually be. Works made for reproduction(as with most illustration) will often use materials that don't last, since the point is to get it printed, and the prints can be the thing that are made to last. I'm not an oil artist, so the board vs canvas discussion is new to me, but I post a lot of ink drawings on social media. That means the experienced work is digital, so the thing to archive is probably that digital form too. In that way, I got over myself, and I'll do drawings with Bic Cristals and Papermate Flairs on a sketchbook I got at Daiso for $2. I'll do that knowing that there would be more longevity in using lampblack pigment on Strathmore bristol - and I have that stuff too - but if I work with that, it's probably because I want a heavier surface that leaves the lines unfeathered, versus the prospect of "what happens to it after 50 years".
It doesn't mean to be so complicated, get a board spray if it lasts forever fine if not, you're not gonna last forever either.
I paint on Claessens oil primed 13DPS, probably their smoothest/finest linen as it has around 6 layers of oil primer. The regular 13 is 2 layers, 13DP is 4 and 13DPS is 5 or 6. Tried other brands of oil primed linen, painted on mdf, aluminium, polyester etc, tried all sorts of primers over the years. Nothing has the same feel and results I get from the Claessens 13DPS though. I buy the full 10m long x 2m wide roll. My first small 8" x 8" painting pays for the whole roll and everything thereafter is profit. 🙂
I also purchase canvas (Claessens) rolls. A couple of finishes but always oil primed. I paint larger on stretched, though will paint on a 18x24 or so on aluminum WITH canvas adhered to it with Miracle Muck. The feel of stretched linen cannot be matched.
@@billfargo7911 Yes I also prefer the feel of oil primed linen over just priming a board. But I do prefer rigid surface over stretched so I always make my own canvas panels, also on aluminum composite material. For smaller sizes I use the solid core and for larger sizes I use the corrugated core. Not criticizing your preference of stretched canvas. Everyone has different sensitivities to the feel and look of how paint is applied. There is no one-size-fits-all option. Everyone should find what suits them best.
I love claasens13....tried numerous other surfaces. But i will try mdf.
No wonder i have these wood boards prepped and ready for some acrlic paint to apply ,and just stick with canibus only , seriously ! 😊❤
I paint on plywood, and while I generally have to pay for it, I do end up with quite a lot left over from boats I build for fun.
That said, some people are maybe not going for it. Here are a few other options.
1) If you really want art store canvas, but maybe a little better that what you can get from Michaels. You can get rolls of it, heavily primed, from Amazon. It is still coarse, but it is a lot better filled than what we have from the big boxes. You can stretch it on frames, they also sell those, but I just cut them out and tape or otherwise fit them to an easel board. Works for practice pieces. And a lot of people use them or maybe linen roll material as their preferred approach. What some people do is make a sheet that will hold several pieces, then tape them off, possibly with enough space to wrap on a frame, but there are other options. A medium sized piece has some mass and stability. You get very clean edges when you remove the tap.
One advantage is that if you are at a stage where you want to keep some work, then you can store this material without much bulk, once it is truly dry.
2) You can buy muslim, which is a very light and sometimes dense cotton. It has a fine texture like portrait linen (ie, nearly as good as wood). The reason one can't use such light material for framed canvases is because it is not strong enough. That is where linen comes in. A light linen is still very strong. But what you do with the Muslin is glue it to a backer, either plywood, or the foam boards, that are a good choice for hiking in. You can do it cold, but I have a T-shirt press so I use that. If will stick if you use archival white glue and a squeegee. Backpacking is the only situation where I would use it. If you use it, you still have to gesso it.
3) In Canada the national gallery, or some such authority did a wide ranging examination of supports for painting. I don't know what, other than archival qualities, were their considerations. Their recommendation was dacron fabric handled like a canvas. It is very fine textured, strong, and does not stretch much. It is reasonably cheap. I guess one gessos it. Might be interesting for a very large project since it is incredibly light.
When I started painting, I used loose canvas sheets from the Fredrix pads, taped to a piece of cardboard. Worked well for learning, but you can't escape the texture. Thanks for your video!
This is so true! I use these pads from Fredrix but have exactly the same issue. I have tried gesso but even that doesn’t help. It’s also expensive to frame canvases.
you can! use more layers of gesso, sandpaper... you can make a very flat surface on canvas. you can make any fabric your canvas
Best video I'v seen yet on art for us artists... thank you for your honesty...
Thank you for this video. I never liked painting on canvas, and there is no need as I’m not going to roll them to transport by horse rider, cart, or galleon. You said plywood and I like low moisture smooth 1/4” to 1/2” thick material. I do prefer to prep the surface with a smooth cotton fabric adhered with wood glue. Linen is too waxy. Then I ground with readymade gesso for small panels. I’ve tried different gesso recipes and I mix wet drywall compound and white PVA glue for the first coat. After sanding I optionally add to the second coat, colorant, diatomaceous earth (for tooth), Fuller’s earth (for oil absorption). Finally, coat with a titanium white paint (oil or acrylic). Takes time but can be done in batches. The cost is a fraction of art shop panels. The best part is finding an excellent vintage custom frame and being able to make a panel that fits it.
Enjoyed the content, I have come to this realization recently, I started painting on cheap canvases and just felt unhappy with the process for the longest time, the way the paint laid on the canvas just made me feel like my process was wrong and I stopped for a while. I’m a multimedia artist and so as I got more money i shifted to Masters Touch Deep canvases, so much better. I do gesso my canvases, mainly because I like to texture the canvas in a thick way. But I have shifted now from canvases to panel boards. My thinking is that they are easier to transport/store/sell/ship whether at art shops or from my studio. The only time I paint on canvas now is for art I’m keeping or gifting, or an original. I will be using spray paint as my base soon, gesso is just to costly now to justify increasing the prices for the customer, spray paint is half the price and does farther. Thanks for intellectual spur, happy painting all!
Just keep doing what you are doing and be steady
Wow! Great to see you, it’s been awhile. You the reason I decided to try Art! Thank you ♥️
The old masters faced the pores problem with the half measure of varnishing the piece after the painted work had dried. This would bring back some of the illumination that Mr. Baumann mentioned, but I'm intrigued by the white "auto primer" method he mentioned (BEFORE the multi colors of the painting are started). It's available in your choise of spray or small can. I also want to try black primer to make a cheezy "Elvis on velvet" spoof.
Let me know
Thanks for the tip on using automotive primer. I sand, re-prime and reuse the old canvases that don’t sell. It’ll save a lot of time if I have a rush job and nothing prepped.
Great practical information.And yes I’ve tried and tested.
You could also use a bed sheet, natural fabric well gummed down - with your preferred media - to your chosen base. It’s just about making the effort which is rewarded by knowning the whole work is your creation.
Wow dropping golden nuggets !!
I like canvas. I like the intensity of the expensive paints. Some of the less expensive paints are OK, but don’t have the same amount of pigment in them. I don’t think of the costs when I paint.
I prioritize having art supplies.
You are fabulous. You are a gift
No, you are the gift ! Thanks for the kind words
Great video, thanks. I always wanted canvas but it's expensive. My favorite artist is Maxfield Parrish. I own 5 prints from the 1920s. As a pianist, your reference made me smile.
I have alot of canvasses to use up... was thinking of going to mdf!!! Thanks for the confirmation. Can I spray my existing canvases with rustolean auto printer instead of gesso?
Bravo....we outside of America - love you: The Most important thing for artist is - work❤ who would say that😁(they usualy think colors, canvases, brushes...😁
Love the turquoise! It is my birth stone!!:Still think the book is amazing
Thanks, Tell the world
Every real artist knows this.
I used to work in studios where there was some quite prominent successful artists and their studios had plenty of Winton paint, emulsion etc hanging about. I think they generally underpaint and build up with lower quality paint and then finish off with the expensive stuff, or use cheap earths and blues and more expensive warm cadmiums.
I had to learn this the hard way! Glad I had the experience with canvas I did in case I ever have to stretch and unstretch a large painting to sell across the country! Also I like using grifitto and canvas doesn’t hold up as well!
Thank you so much for sharing this very interesting topic.
I love painting on masonite board! Taking it one step further, is there any paper you like or recommend?
You’re speaking great SENSE 👌👌👌
Thought ya might be a wacko but listened to the end. Thx
Love it.🙏
Based on the comments, I feel like I might get yelled at for saying this... but could you not just gesso/sand the canvas a few times to get a smooth surface? That's how to get rid of the texture of the canvas. The gesso fills the pores, leaving a smooth surface. A canvas right out of the plastic will be rough, sure, but you can prepare the surface how ever smooth you like. For practice, you can buy packs of small canvases for like $20 for 5 canvases. I get 16"x20" canvases for $4 a piece that way.
Wouldn't mdf be far cheaper still? my local hardware store sells 6mm thickness, 2440 x 1220mm for $25.90, that's $8.99 per square meter, and if I want 3mm thickness then It's only $15.81 which is $5.49 for a square meter. This is in AUD
How fun, one of my mother's best paintings was done on paper grocery bags but that wasn't using oils.
If we use a thin board, you have to frame it and that costs money!
I just switched to fluid art from oil painting.
Smooth side or rough side of MDF board?? I actually love the rough side. I don’t do crazy detailed realism. I do a modern version of Pointillism. It’s funny because I love MDF boards but I actually felt funny going to Home Depot getting them cut and then charging $$$$ for my work. Home Depot and Rustoleum here I come!!!!🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉😢
Thank You - Wise words, Stefan!
Thank you for your valuable advises.
I switched to MDF panels thru your coaching. But, mostly I paint on paper.
fantastic video. thank you
Bravo!
I use plyboard and it is very affortdable and light. 👍🏻
Simply BRILLIANT …Thank you !!
Wow! thanks
Very good advice! Thank you!
I paint on 1/8-inch thick Masonite panels.
Great video! Were can i find the Automotive primer you use?? On the mdf boards
Home depot
the better my paintings went the crappiest my base is. now im just working on primed paper. I work in oils quite fast so I know I will just be doing so many
I. F***ing. Loved. This. Video!!!!!!! 🙌🏼
ACM panel/Dibond is even better. You can get a 4x8 foot panel for 100 bucks and it's stronger, less prone to warping and more archival.
I've been thinking about painting on boards recently because i am not able to access canvas right now so boards is the only option, i just hope its the right move.
I'm transitioning from watercolor to oil painting. Thank you for this tip. My teacher says to always use an oil based primer, not gesso. Your tip on spraying automotive primer is genius. Really appreciate this ❤
Blanket statements by teachers are bad. That includes both your teacher as well as what is taught in this video. While I also personally prefer oil based primer, I know a lot of artists who prefer gesso because they perform differently. Each artist is unique and has their own sensitivities and ways to apply the paint and have different tastes in the finished look. Each primer DOES look and feel different, contrary to what this video suggests. In fact the video contradicts itself. He says he prefers oil primer, then later says that you cannot tell the difference with automotive primer once you learn how to use it. That is a contradiction and it completely false. Their is a difference in look and feel. Find the primer that suits your style. There are pros and cons of oil based. There are pros and cons of gesso. There are pros and cons of spray-on acrylic automotive primer. Pros and cons to oil based spray-on automotive primer. Experiment and find what suits you best rather than what others tell you is best for them. And there is also the traditional gesso which is made of rabbit skin glue and marble dust (calcium carbonate). They aren't available commercially to my knowledge, but they can be made in your studio. That may be something to also experiment with if you want. Completely different feel and look. Find what works for you.
Cold-pressed illustration board, 2x gessoed.
Hi Stefan, great advice thank you. yes painting on canvas is frustrating because also the pores cause the paint to lay unevenly unless you really pile it on. It is hard to create precision and sharp line work. Is amber shellac just as good as primer and gesso?
MY NAME IS MARCO FROM ISRAEL NHST JOIN TO YOUR CHANNEL TA,ING BREAK BETWEEN MISSLES FROM LEBANON THAN THOSE FROM IRAN. YOUR VIDEOS PROVIDE JUST CALM
Oil painting paper is affordable, lightweight and doesn't need preparation. Great for practising. Canson makes a good and affordable one.
There's a lotta materials available that they didn't have before the 20th century. MDF, HDF (Hardboard/masonite), foamboard, plastics like yupo and dura-bright, aluminum panels... There's even people painting on the GLASS that comes with frames!
I want to hear more from you. I hope there’s a bunch of stuff that I can listen to and check you out.
I'm All over Yourtube with over 300 videos including PBS
My tutor at art school used to say, before you go to the art shop pop into the hardware store first.
Great tutorial. What about hot pressed watercolor paper? Thanks for sharing.
Love it but it is costly
I started painting on mdf, then I was afraid it wouldn't be professional, and michaels had a sale with 60% off so I bought several to learn how to paint on canvas.
But my biggest fear is shipping, and given the prices in Canada for shipping a canvas, I can't even imagine shipping a painting on mdf.😅
Fantastic advice. Art supplies are extortionately expensive and do not improve your skills proportionately . Literally deters you from using it! You become a collector of art supplies rather than an artist 😅
Thank you
I think if you think your work as an artist is good or even great, go for the good stuff. I save a lot of money making my oil primed linen canvas from scratch and not bound by conventional store bought dimensions. Stretchers, rolls of good smooth linen, tacks, rsg, lead primer applied with pallet knife. Super smooth unlike anything you can buy and a joy to paint on with oils. And, if a painting does not work, it can be reused by applying another layer of oil primer over it. It is not for everyone because the making of canvas like this is hard work and time and space.
Yes! Agreed! I have always made my own from day 1. It's far more cost effective and you get better quality. I switched to gluing my canvas to panels years ago because I prefer a rigid support, but I've also stretched many canvases in my day. Making your own is the way to go. And primed boards do not feel or look the same as a good quality oil primed linen.
Which type of brush works best for painting on panels
i only bought so far cheap canvases for 5-8€uro /50x70cm because at this size mdf becomes a problem in term of what do you do with it later on? the canvas can be hung on the wall and it sits there, the mdf would need a frame which drives the cost up and you cant lay them over each other when you painted a little bit thicker.
I have to ask! Dear Sir, I am curious about the wall behind you. Did you paint the finish? I love the reflective quality! Denise in Raleigh
Have you ever heard of wall paper?
Yes its is brawnz color
"Archival enough" includes archival for the middle term. I have works on paper that I made when I was half my current age, that are a crumbling, yellowing mess. It seems to me that a middle-aged collector has a right to expect that the work they buy will last into their old age in a condition such that their heirs will have to decide whether to display it or to sell it-rather than both options being absurd because of deterioration. AND, I think this is an appropriate expectation for any art that is good enough that another person wants to pay some money for the privilege of living with it--NOT just for the few ionospheric super-stars. Works on paper are especially vulnerable; I think that oil painting on your auto-primed mdf is probably OK. But even there, your students should be looking at the lightfastness of their pigments, not thinking that archival qualities are for someone else, not them.
I did not say Paper...
@@StefanBaumann My point is the relevance of that "medium term," and for most anybody selling work.
I believe most of this video is about practicing, my 0.02 is take Stefan’s advice so you can practice a lot, but A LOT. Even the masters practiced on paper and other surfaces. When you are ready to do work that you really care and want to keep for a long time or sell, then spend you money but do it wisely.
I think you missed the point of this video
Good quality paper properly primed will not yellow or get damaged by oils. I have 20 year old paintings on cardboard and 10 year old paintings on paper, there are absolutely no signs of aging if you examine them.
Is there a substitute for Ampersand? They are over priced. But on the other hand I can’t seem to find a wood panel that doesn’t warp or bend. Options are birch wood, basswood plywood, and MDF
I'm wondering how you are prepping your panels? I use birch plywood sealed front, back and all sides because it is mainly moisture that causes warping. If your panels are very thin you may have cradle them to prevent warping
Lots of opinions but it is all come down to the artist
Stefan B you are so down to earth. Thank you for your practical advice.
Thanks for the kind words, Watch more of my videos
I paint on acrylic primed canvas panels. $4-6 a piece. It works fine although I am not an expert
what side of the board is preferred to paint on? the rough side or smooth side?
smoooth
I agree. I'm a novice painter. No way would I fork out for canvas. I just use off cuts of board from my local hardware store. Costs £3.00!
MDF is so heavy! Not cost effective when you need to ship them to buyers. Maybe ok to practice on until you are good, but too heavyto ship. And aren't they bad if they get wet? Don't they swell?
aluminum composite material (acm) is comparable in price if you buy from a sign supplier and is much lighter in weight. It is less prone to expansion / contraction issues and wont swell if they get wet. Far superior product. But not available locally in small towns or small cities. My closest supplier is 80 miles away, but they offer free deliver with a minimum order that I easily reach buying one or two panels. For a small fee they well even cut the large sheets down to smaller sizes for me that is well worth it for me.
I don't prime the acm directly (though you can and I've tried it), but I prefer to mount linen to the acm. Great, durable lightweight, rigid panels.
@@keithbond9423 wow, great idea.
that was what i was saying
@@keithbond9423 That's actually not true at all...acm is far far more expensive compared to mdf board, even with a sign supplier. MDF board is literally a fraction of the price lol...
12 x 16 for $60? Where do you buy those expensive canvases? Why would you pay that much?
$10
Don"t
I think he is saying a large panel is $60.00 which is about what I pay for a 4x8 foot panel
this will provide 24 9x12 inch panels, making the cost per 9x12 approximately $2.30
I paint on 3 ply timber which is more solid than Mdf and much cheaper than canvas.
Hello there stefon. I just found out about this surface for painting called ACM aluminum panels. I just wanted your opinion on them. Are they any good? Thanks
I like my efforts EZ they work but why? Every hardware store has MDF
@@StefanBaumann but when you paint on big panels they get heavy and i really don't like the texture of canvas or lenin. Plus shipping heavy painting is way more expensive (where i live at least)
@@Mohamed-tr7fi ACM is a lot heavier than MDF. I don't like MDF. I like to use good plywood it weighs a lot less. So that would be marine grade or aircraft or baltic birch for small work you can get some doorskins and they are tremendous quality and about 10 bucks for a 7' x 36" sheet. We even used to make boats out of them at one time. We are talking about 3 and 4mm material. It weighs a bout 3-6 ounces a square foot. my 3mm ACM weights about a pound a sqare foot.
The people who use ACM are convinced it is the most archival material that there is. I doubt it because it is not designed as an art product, and there is a brand, but some big stores carry something they found somewhere, nice quality at my local, but it is pre finished for some kind of outdoor use on one side, and seemingly raw on the other. The raw side is pretty shinny so there might be something on it. If you look into what you have to do to properly bond to Al i involves and acid wash, and epoxy coating. So you can try something else, but it would be pretty much guess work. The meat in the sandwich is some kind of plastic. I mean it will last too long unless you are in the top .1%. But they are thinking in hundreds or thousands of years. And we are talking about all kinds of unproven materials coming together. A lot of things could happen.
When I studied art in the early 1980s, the requirement in a painting class by an abstract expressionist that we work on 36 x 48 inch stretched canvases seemed primarily designed to intimidate the mostly women students. Someone's husband made completed stretcher frame equivalents in his woodshop for us so all we had to do was stretch and gesso, and lug the things to/from/through a downtown city campus. I got on better with visiting figurative artists who did not have rigid demands for grounds used, and made use of smaller commercial stretched canvases or recycled those big stretchers. Work centered on print/documentation/presentation production, so art is for myself and has suffered from earlier not making peace with bad working spaces at home, should have been furiously sketchbooking and prepping 3D pieces to paint. Did take some classes from an illustrator to warm up and lose some intimidation re working with good materials and on collectible pieces. Have boards, sketchbooks, and artist resin models, and will be working in acrylic, gouache, and colored pencils (and other low-dust media) as the home studio solution for a quarter of a larger bedroom space that will also have a computer station, half the library, and some display/storage. Do what you realistically can in your now; I'll be sketching and prepping and preparing spaces until I get my current thesis done.
Fine. Does this information apply to acrilycs paintings?
NO
Do you just use a hardware shop oil primer product to prime the board? And don't these boards warp somewhat? Thanks
yes
Thanks for this! I know you use oils...if a person wihes to work in acrylics will auto primer work to prime mdf board or which primer will?
acrylics should not be on oil primer
for working with acrylics, Golden recommends sealing the bare panel with their gloss medium, let it dry, then you are good to go. may I add to seal both sides and all edges for protection against humidity and potential warping.
I don’t know if this is really great advice… I mean, certainly there is a case to be made for looking at alternative surfaces besides stretched canvas- I have no problem with that. I mean, I do like painting on stretched canvas, & I don’t really think all of your criticisms are legitimate… Like, the visibility of the weave is a very silly reason to reject canvas altogether… You can literally prime a canvas to have as much texture (or even structure, if you use molding pastes & stuff like that) , or as little texture as you want… I grant you that it takes a little effort to prepare a canvas… But I would be doing something similar to pretty much any surface to ensure good paint adhesion & the kind of surface I want to be working on… If you want it very smooth, all you have to do is apply a few of layers of gesso. If you really want it perfectly smooth, apply them with a roller or a palette knife/trowel or whatever works for you. If you deem it necessary (you’ll get a feel for what works as you practice & experiment over time) then sand each layer in between applications… But even without sanding, if you’re careful you can get a VERY smooth surface with gesso. And then if you prefer oil primed, you can put the oil primer on top of that. Otherwise, you can paint acrylics or oils directly into acrylic gesso… There’s no reason you HAVE to accept the texture of the weave being visible, & painters who use canvas have dealt with it in this manner for quite a while. Personally, I often like to have a little bit of a fresco-like texture, so I don’t always intend to make it perfectly flat, but with gesso alone you can achieve a huge spectrum of textural effects, & as long as it’s thick enough to obscure the weave, you won’t see it (it can actually be a very cool touch to have it show through in certain spots & not others, if you do so in an elegant way). And if you add in other options for preparation, like molding pastes, absorbent grounds, etc., there is plenty you can do with a canvas besides just having such a thin primer on it that the weave/pores are visible.
Anyway, setting that argument aside, I agree that stretched canvases can be very costly (a lot of the serious painters who really like canvas will stretch their own, or will hold canvas taut against a board in some way that keeps it flat to paint without actually stretching it, because loose canvas is much cheaper to transport/ship, as it can be rolled up, saving a lot of space when you need to transport a lot of large paintings for a show, though obviously the exact medium & specific materials you’re using are a big factor in how safely it can be rolled up once dry without cracking or otherwise becoming permanently distorted- but yeah, approaching canvas in ways that doesn’t require you to pay a premium for pre-stretched canvases, because a 100 sq foot roll of duck canvas or whatever is a lot cheaper than 100 sq feet of pre-stretched canvases, for example.
Aside from cost, I think the biggest issues with stretched canvases are having to ship/transport them (which is only even worse with a huge, bulky, heavy MDF board), the risk of expanding or contracting due to environmental reasons (MDF also has the issue that if it isn’t PERFECTLY sealed, it can absorb moisture, which can ultimately lead to warping)… The fact that a stretch canvas is vulnerable to being pierced by a sharp object (MDF is definitely a bit more durable, but still pretty infamous for being soft & easily dented/gouged/otherwise damaged by impacts)… And, depending on what kind of project you’re doing, the fact that a stretched canvas CAN sag or be dented in can be a problem. For example, if you’re doing acrylic pouring, or anything else where you apply a lot of very heavy, dense material, that can cause the center to sag inward, which can cause fluid designs to distort before they dry, or can cause cracking/adhesion problems, or what have you; you generally don’t want a painting surface to distort after it’s painted, unless it’s a very flexible medium & you intend to roll it up. So that’s a consideration which isn’t necessarily a concern for the average oil or acrylic painter, just painting in average thickness layers with a brush… But I like pouring, & layering thickly, so it’s something I keep in mind. In that respect MDF is surely preferable, but so is any rigid support.
Oh, also, MDF may out-gas formaldehyde & other carcinogenic fumes, so… Also a consideration- especially depending on where you’re keeping all of these MDF paintings. I don’t actually know how perfectly you can seal these boards to prevent moisture getting in or carcinogenic fumes getting out, if you were very rigorous & seal every side perfectly (maybe that’d work, or maybe as soon as anything happens that creates a crack, it’s going to be releasing them all the same), but if you’re just spraying the painting side with auto-primer in a very slap-dash fashion to save time, then the rest of it certainly isn’t sealed, so you’ll surely have both of those factors to contend with… I’m also not sure what the tannin content of MDF board is like- it probably depends on what adhesives are used in it, but that can also damage an oil painting… But even assuming that it has no acidity problems (or the auto-primer blocks the acids effectively)… I wouldn’t want a bunch of big sheets of MDF board accumulating in my home or studio, potentially releasing carcinogens (I don’t even feel great about having one that I use to work on top of, but I doubt that a single ~2 foot by 2 foot sheet has TOO big of an effect, as long as there’s decent ventilation). I’d be very worried about how soft & prone to damage it might be, the potentially less-than-archival quality…
I mean, for practice sessions, experimenting, studies, by all means- paint on whatever you want (just like if you aren’t expecting to sell it as a final product, or hoping for it to last, there’s no reason you can’t draw on newsprint, or in a notebook, or whatever)! And if that’s all you can afford, do what you have to do… But I think that talking as if MDF is as good a surface as an artist EVER needs… Even as a professional… You’re definitely getting what you’re paying for with MDF. There’s good reason that you don’t see a ton of paintings on MDF in museums or galleries, even though it’s so cheap & available… If you’re trying to make something that will last, & that will be professional, & really serve its function well as a painting surface, you kind of need to be a bit more selective than that. Again, if you fully seal every side, maybe you can get away with using it… But by then, are you really saving all that much labor over just taking the time to properly apply a few layers of gesso to a superior surface? You’re still having to apply a primer several times, cover every edge, be very diligent, & in the end your surface still has the flaws inherent to MDF, & if that primer seal ever gets broken then the protection won’t necessarily last (AFAIK primer is also just not a 100% perfect, impenetrable barrier; if it was, there would be no problem with using high tannin wood panels, because you could just apply a couple layers of primer & know the acids will never touch the paint; over time, or with physical damage, the protection can be breached, so you want as few tannins/acids, as little moisture vulnerability, & so on, as possible in the surface to start with.
What I’d recommend is what I’ve seen recommended as the ideal oil painting surface, if you can find a good supplier: ACM panel/board. Aluminum Composite Material panels contain no acids (bigger deal for oil painting; with acrylics, a low-tannin wood is really probably fine, but I’d still generally invest in something higher quality than fiber or particle board; hardboard intended for painting purposes can be fine, or a proper wood panel made from a low-tannin wood type). It’s really hard & durable- I’m sure it can be dented/nicked if you hit it hard enough, but it’s a lot denser & harder than MDF. It can be easily cut to size. It’s basically PERFECTLY smooth by default. Has a nice weight to it, but without being prohibitively heavy for hanging/display (it may get pretty heavy at larger sizes, but it’s literally made industrially for use in businesses signs, or in wall panels, so it’s presumed that it’ll be up, vertical, on or near a wall anyway. And if can be pricey if you just buy individual panels at an art supply store (as with every other kind of board & panel & canvas), but if you can find the kind of supplier who sells in bulk to businesses for signage & such, you can get HUGE surfaces very cheaply, cut them down to whatever size you want, & have your surfaces taken care of for way cheaper than most surfaces while getting top archival quality (just make sure it’s one of the kinds that is suitable for painting; it can get a little confusing when they’re selling different types for other industrial uses).
The only real downsides are:
1. That you do have to bother with finding a supplier, ideally in your area, in order to get the good pricing.
2. It does take some prep work to get it ready. You can find great illustrated guides & videos on how to prepare ACM board/panel for oil painting online so I won’t explain here, but it involves scuffing the aluminum surface (WEAR A RESPIRATOR- don’t inhale particles of aluminum), rinsing the dust away typically with isopropyl alcohol, & then priming it… There are certain things you don’t want to mess up, so definitely use a guide/tutorial the first time or two. But it’s not rocket science, & isn’t much more work, really, than dealing & gessoing wood panel, or priming canvas until the weave is covered, or whatever.
3. As with other kinds of panel/board, I guess it is a downside that you kind of need a frame, or some kind of comparable hardware, in order to hang it up… Wood panel, ACM, MDF- they’re all just flat rectangular prisms, & the painting presumably covers the whole thing, so you don’t want to drill holes straight into it… So if you’re ever going to put it in a gallery or something, a lot of them require artwork to be wired, or to have some kind of hanging mechanism, & the only real option for these surfaces is to frame them, which maybe you were going to do anyway, but it can be an pricey additional expense, depending on the size & weight & so on… Again, the weight of MDF gets really burdensome really fast- if you ever had to ship paintings that were more than a foot or so in each direction, & they’re on MDF board, sealed, that will add up like CRAZY. I know just from hauling this 2x2 board (which is only like 3/4 inch or 1 inch thick), this stuff is big & bulky & heavy. Whereas ACM panel is a lot thinner, sleeker, & still not LIGHT, but certainly more manageable.
So, potential con that you can’t just stick ACM panels up on the wall on their own… One thing I do really love about stretched canvas, aside from how light they are (the same 3x2 foot painting that would be a pain to haul around on MDF board, you could basically carry one-handed on stretched canvas), is that- as long as the wood stretcher framing is thick & quality enough to take screws properly, as most gallery-wrapped pre-stretched canvas ought to be, you can literally just drill holes, screw some eye screws in, & wire the stretcher bars directly, & then you can hang the painting without the need for a frame or anything else beyond a hanger rated to support the weight of the painting. That said, being that ACM is so perfectly flat & rigid, it shouldn’t be a problem to frame it in most cases, unless there’s a lot of thick texturing on the front or something.
Anyway, it’s a great, potentially affordable alternative that is ideal for oils & doesn’t come with so many downsides & risks. Higher quality wood panels can also be great for acrylics, but again… Acids are a way bigger issue for oil paintings, so I would only use wood panel for a serious oil painting if it’s a tannin-free/very low-tannin wood, & even then you’d ideally seal it thoroughly, just to be safe. This is the kind of care in preparation that may be a little boring, a little tedious, but just out of respect for your own work, & for anyone who might potentially buy it in the future, it’s worth going the extra mile (or at least taking these minimal precautions). Worst case scenario is that you half-ass the preparation, start painting, end up making something you actually LOVE & want to last, & think you could sell… But then it ends up having really serious archivability/lightfastness/acid damage/moisture damage problems or what have you because you didn’t bother to start from a strong foundation. It’s much better IMO to put in the effort up front, & then even if that painting doesn’t work out, you can eventually repurpose it & you’ll still have the strong foundations you put in place to rebuild on. It’s obviously harder to reuse a surface in oil painting, because you might have to wait a YEAR or more for it to fully cure, vs having the freedom to re-gesso a surface like 5 minutes after you finish an acrylic painting if you don’t like it, & restart that day, but that’s just a trade-off of the medium, & you technically can still reuse one… It just has a way longer turn-around.
Anyway, not trying to discourage anyone from having fun with a DIY art project with whatever materials they have available. It’s not a matter of elitism. But if you are trying to do it professionally, & if you want your work to last, this stuff is important to think about.
@@SomethingImpromptu I agree that ACM is the best option on the market. And it is surprisingly affordable as you mention from a sign supply store. I will add though, that for larger sizes, I use the acm with a corrugated core. They are lighter in weight and much more rigid. But they do cost more than the solid core. Definitely worth it for me, though, with the larger sizes. Most acm that I see comes with a white smooth coating which can be painted directly on if you want, but it is far too slippery for my style. Lightly sanding it is needed. Yes, you can prime over it with primer of choice, whether acrylic gesso or oil based primer. However I love the look and feel of a nice oil primed linen. I buy linen in rolls and glue them to the acm panels. I agree with @SomethingImpromptu that MDF is a terrible choice.
Would using the white autoprimer on board work for acrylic painting too? Where do I buy it? At an auto shop?
I *think * that you can use gesso over the primer, to be able to keep the tannins in
Auto primer is usually oil and acrylic should not put on oil
Just because I love my paintings makes it valuable. If people don't like it or noone buys it, it is not less valuable.