kinda sad that there are so many guys that are so lonely and desperate that they will fall in love with any girl that gives them even a shred of attention.
@facelessninetytwo aka Man of the Rain Well theres a couple of reasons they are much rarer, first of all men are very heavily pressured to find a girl much more so than women, secondly women are not taught to repress their emotions and are comfortable leaning on their friends for empathy and emotional support, thirdly men's value is heavily defined by the girl they get and how attractive they are whereas women tend to value personality way more
Yea its sad. Most men today either get NO female attention or negative female attention. So they go online and donate money to a girl they find attractive and she says "omg! ty so much, I love you and you have the biggest D" Now he is getting positive female attention.
@facelessninetytwo aka Man of the Rain lonely gal here, i feel compelled to show my presence now :p i've been indoors/hermit-lifestyle for most of my life (still in highschool, never been to public, only online), and i'm attention-starved to the nines. i'm not sure where to go or what to do with my situation, just feel kinda stuck. especially with Miss Corona forcing me to stay inside--which is a good thing ofc but shit for the mood--it feels like things will just be this way forever. Watching Dr K has been a big help, but it still seems like there's a barrier of anxiety whenever I get too emotionally close to someone which just stops me in my tracks. Sorry for rambling to you in particular. It's just a big bottle of mental hell.
As a gay man who is no more than a spectator when it comes to heterosexual relationships, it's really astonishing how just broken and fucked the dynamics between the genders is. There's so many lonely depressed men, and so many women have had so many experiences with harassment that they've almost gotten used to it and it's really tragic. Also none of this is to say there's no problems in same sex relationships, there certainly are, but there seems to be such a gulf between the genders when it comes to communication and understanding how the other works and thinks and what they want.
I do also think that part of the issue is that there are a lot more hetero relationships than not. So you're limited by your pool. Hetero relationships being higher in quantity are due to also being higher in disfunction, due to mismatch of expectations, excluding gender differences. Solely on statistics.
@@pedroassuncao2630 This. Also when you are hetero you can pretty much bet on everyone of the opposite you meet is a potential partner or can maybe see you as a potential partner. That changes everything day to day and especially in workplace environments. The same conversation two men can have could be the taken completely differently than 2 women. Men and Women cant ever be equal socially, theres too many different dynamics and positions in society to be dismantled.
It's not a gulf between genders as much as it is men treating women like inhuman objects they can insult, idealize, and use for their own pleasure and ego. Don't put this on the women for a second. The issues stem primarily from how men are conditioned.
"She thought we were dating and I thought I was just showing her around town" lol same for me and my wife. I asked her on one date, and by the 2nd I was sure I was friendzoned when I babbled about how excited I was for Skyrim coming out in the park for 2 hours since I couldn't figure out anything else to say. By then I had assumed I'd bungled it and she had no interest. I was just trying to ride out that date and maybe end up with a friend at least. Later she told me that I could have proposed right then and she would have said yes, lol...
Did she give you any positive feedback during the conversation? Because if not I can imagine in your position I would of fucked it up mistakingly thinking I already did.
I like these conversations to gain a better perspective. What I don't like especially concerning this topic is that Men are obligated to seek out women if they want a partner in the overwhelming majority of the cases. That puts in a position where of course so many more of us are gonna go the wrong way about it strictly from a numbers standpoint. Combine that with having to muster up courage to approach a woman and put yourself in a position where you can be rejected that can affect you negatively. Mix that with the daily battles of inadecuacy we deal with that are exclusive to our gender. On top of all that and most importantly of all, men tend to be showed very little attention emotionally in society which puts us in situations where we go into these interactions with emotional problems already. All of this just sounds like you're setting us up for failure and if we do, we're forced to figure it out ourselves without support.
a lot of these problems are simply (not easily) solved by getting used to rejection (both genders); whether romantically, professionally, or just in general. People need to realize that not everything is in their control and sometimes we're just not gonna get what we want and that's ok.
@@sausageanimations4301 There are bad people in every single group. The man hating feminists are a pretty small minority, but blow up on the internet because of their extremely offensive views. Pair that with the 'anti-sjw', 'feminazi' stuff that was really popular on youtube a few years back that showed off every single clip of a crazy radical feminist and it's easy to see why some people have negative associations with feminism. Mainstream feminism doesn't need to change its name, it just needs to be louder about its positions and distance itself from the minority of crazies. There are groups of radicals in like that in every group. Feminism has been around for decades. It wouldn't be very smart to throw all that away and try to change their name and get everyone in support of feminism on board with a new name collectively and somehow not allow radicals to follow it.
Indirect ways to decline someone's advances just keeps on the infinite cycle of hope for a desperate person. Instead of saying like "I'm not really interested in this right now" say something more akin to "I am not interested in you".
@@cellceair8772 Sure, if your view of social interactions is the same and you are not desperate/horny/in love enough to be hopeful enough to keep going. Being ambiguous because you don't want to feel bad for being honest results in you being ambiguous, which is sometimes the problem.
This is important, especially when you consider the male perspective of the situation. Alot of guys are, wrongfully, told to be assertive and confident even if she initially says something close to no; this is akin to the "no means keep going problem". With the best of intentions, the guy may just think her rejection is reactive and could be quick to change, taken from the advice of his peers, hence why he continues; he's not wrong, many have denied initial interest only to be won over down the line but many more have either genuinely fucked up or been wrongly labeled as creepy. This cannot happen if she says "I am not interested in you", it's decisive, concrete and leaves no further room for discussion.
@@blazinkid5178 I agree, it's so much better to just directly say "I'm not interested in you" instead of implying it's just not the right time. Especially over text, it just leaves no room for interpretation. Most people nowadays are just so shy of confrontation that they think not saying the truth about what they feel is somehow being "nice" to a guy.
@@Torbintime It's true, people nowadays want to present themselves as 'right' rather than do the right thing. I'll admit, to play devil's advocate, there are rare cases where being respectful and direct with a guy has gotten a girl into trouble. The guys who'd hit a woman rather than hold the L are the worst, but the people who'd sell someone a dream instead of being direct are not too far off. And I can't lie: Dr.K has messed up on the approach to this topic; it's been a purely female-centric narrative. He's gotta get some guys on and challenge the them with the opinions outlined on this video instead of just presenting more of the same side and declaring 'men' as the problem. These days, we're all just fucking up.
@@stefanopaolini6117 So what you're saying is, men have to basically play women like cheap fiddles in order to get them in a relationship, e.g. by not overinvesting (forcing things), so the women won't lose interest?
UA-camr Contrapoints spoke about this issue in one of her videos. Being transgender, she has a perspective on online interactions both as male and female. The former being more frequently encountering radio silence and being ignored when sending messages, and the latter getting tons and tons of requests, and having to wade thru hundreds of garbage copy pasted or abusive messages. I wish Dr. K had a chat with her.
@@WrathofFenrir99 bruh rapacious oligarchs are kill hundreds of Americans each day by lobbying against policies that could easily prevent their deaths. This impending covid eviction crisis should be the breaking point, and if even that's not enough to convince the majority of us that it's time to band together and raise hell, America will be getting what it deserves.
I don't get why he calls himself that. He's 37 (same as my sibling). He's an older millennial. He also talks like a millennial and clearly grew up with that culture. No boomers here (un)fortunately.
@@Mrfiufaufou it depends on the type of friends. Close friends yeah I agree, but having girls in the friends groups without wanting to be in a relationship can happend. But having a girl friend who calls me at 4 am because she broke up with her boyfriend yeah I'm not in it just to be friends.
Bruh, the problem I see is that there are so many men, myself included, that get abandoned from any social interaction with women. I have had experiences where women talk behind my back about how they were stalked by me even though I happened to cycle in the same direction as them, namely, the center of town. They stopped and started gossiping, audibly... Like... I just cycle the same direction and I'm already doing something wrong. How the fuck do you expect me to not feel good when a woman is being normal and nice to me? I have autism and am introverted, conversations are already difficult for me, so whenever I have a good one it is special to me.
I feel you bro. I don't have autism but to me is also difficult to talk to people and what happend to you happends to me also. When I go walk alone some women also just gossip if I'm going the same direction as them or just move to the other side of the road for no reason. The difference is I know there's not a single woman who wants to be with me so having any hope is worthless. Yeah I'm always lonely but at least I'm never delusional.
i have autism too and it’s the opposite, i get paranoid that men want to take advantage of my lack of social queues and i can never tell if i’m being naive
Other Pill how about the empathy gap is on both sides? Women don't understand the emotional wasteland men wander in and how awful it is. Men don't understand that women live with the constant fear of sexual violence and being dehumanised and treated like a symbolic entity instead of a real person and how awful that is. How about we each take a while to consider these things and try to be in the other persons shoes instead of this immature competition?
This is infuriating, we have to get to a point in society where it's not only the males responsibility to court women, I've had women tell me they've liked me for long stretches of time and were " waiting " on my approach, why is it OUR job to sustain all the damage. If women would court men more we would have less problems like this.
A lot of women are pressured to conform to standards like not asking a guy out, just like men are pressured to take the lead and ask. I would argue it shouldn't be that either gender should have to take the lead on asking a person out, both should feel comfortable taking that step.
What is the purpose of make up? Women are expected to put additional effort into their looks. Men are "supposed" to be straightforward/bold, women are "supposed" to be fragile/mysterious. You are asking for too much
@@DimaRakesah most men don't have the problem of feeling uncomfortable about being approached. If we lived in a world where it was typical for women to approach men you wouldn't have this issue.... I fail to see how your rationale makes sense.
@@juno1597 Even if men say they wouldn't mind women approaching them, that doesn't mean women have been conditioned to do so. We're told not to be too forward or pushy, approaching a guy can be seen as desperate, too forward, and potentially be seen as the behavior of "loose" women. That's not to say I agree. I have often made the first move myself, heck I asked my now husband out on a date first, but as someone who has seen this conditioning first hand I don't expect all women to be like me.
I also would love if women approached men as frequently as men approached women. But that simply isn't gonna happen because of game theory. Women are more selective with their partners then men are. Mathematically, it's just more advantageous for women to let men come to them first.
I found a way to avoid retaliation sometimes when telling someone I'm not interested is to give their ego a way out, so telling them something like "Hey, I just wanted to let you know something. I am getting vibes from you that you might be romantically into me, and tbh I'm not interested in that kind of relationship, but I'm thinking it might also be just your way of being friendly, so I just wanted to clarify this with you" and so it gives them the opportunity to say "yeah that's just me being friendly" and then stop talking to me
I personally hate the "I'm not interested in that kind of relationship". That is almost always a lie. Even if you're not actively looking, you aren't going to reject the man of your dreams. If you are "not interested in that kind of relationship" that implies that the problem is with you: you aren't ready for a relationship - but once you are, the guy is still in the game. What you actually mean and should say is "I am not attracted to you at all". The phrasing is arguable, though I personally think it's better to be harsh. Better for the guy to get offended and storm off, than to hang around never giving up.
@@someguycalledcerberus9805 dont think its a womans responsibility to give a guy what he expects from her....i do know where u are coming from and that a harsh rejection will kill all hope in him, but it leaves the woman up for criticism too and she is human like a man is...so i dont think its fair to hold her accountable for a mans hurt feelings...he should hold himself accountable... while its pretty nice if a woman is rude to him if needed...its not something one can expect.
My mom had to repeat a class in medical school when she rejected her professor. He failed her for no reason. Up until that point she was at the top of her class. This was before there were ways to get this addressed by the school.
Doctor K: "I might call you "you guys" but I will try to use "ya all"." Proceeds to use "ya all" exactly three times and "you guys" the rest of the conversation because shit got real fast.
@@Thenewkrookkud Because semantically, it is. It has evolved to be a gender-neutral term. Before the same people who, despite all Latinos telling them to stop, keep pushing the LatinX thing, have made a decision for everyone else that "guys" is now offensive.
2 things I noticed on the friend zone subject that just made me think about how clueless girls are about male friends "he just moved to my city were such good friends" nah hes 100% playing the long game, literally no one would do that for someone who rejected them and is now just a friend. "i confessed to him and he had no idea it was gonna happen" yet you still ended up in a relationship so clearly he still liked you as more than a friend
Regarding the "no real incels on stream", I remember interviews with Neonazis that were very similar. For some of them, when you create a safe environment, so they actually think and talk about their behavior, their believes start to shake. They somehow got into these communities because they felt understood by them and they just ride that emotional high.
It's something he points out in a video about conversation. If you argue with someone, they dig their heels in. If you listen to someone, repeat back what they say to them, or ask them to go into detail when they're confused they don't dig their heels in and are pretty open to changing their mind.
If you're a woman and you're not hideous, chances are you're drowning in so much unwanted attention that kindness isn't a rare thing to encounter (whether it's genuine or faked in attempt to get in your pants.) That's a unique form of loneliness, for sure. Men dont know what THAT feels like. The average man gets closer to zero attention/interest from the opposite sex and is so lonely and starved for attention that even the smallest forms of kindness, (the kind that would literally mean nothing to you,) would make a man start to fantasize about spending the rest of our lives with that woman. THATS a unique form of loneliness. Women don't care or feel bad if the average man is invisible to 99% of women. Men don't care or feel bad if 99% of men want to sleep with you and thats the attention you're getting, (even if most of the attention woman are getting is superficial, unsatifying or unfilling Probably because some people think negative attention is better than none, (and maybe that's why the men in their stories react to rejection out of anger?) It's a problem. I don't know what we do about it but hopefully I've pinpointed the empathetic gap in the dynamics.
this is very well felt and explained. Like I've been feeling incredibly lonely and yet I know I wouldn't get much genuine sympathy nor understanding about it.. which in turn adds to the loneliness. Depressing
Personally I have a theory that we do know which is "worse". Not trying to even get into that argument bc there's no winning on either side, both genders have unique struggles but here is what I will say: Think of what the men who feel this way have been getting up to, especially the youth, they go online and they troll the world, they have outbursts of violence, anger, bitterness etc etc, I seriously feel like these men have decided it is better to have negative attention and be that "problem" rather than be invisible. They find it better to be seen and hated than completely alone. And tbh I feel like I agree, I'm in a better place in life now but I definitely remember the feelings and can think of behaviors I engaged in just to feel seen, from something as small as griefing in fucking Minecraft lmao to full on bullying etc etc, thank god I never went as far as to do anything illegal or even harrass women or something insane like that but I feel like I have never heard anyone talk about this. Women sometimes live in a world of an abundance of fake attention and men with none, but there exists a group of men who felt the "nothing" and decided negative attention is better than complete invisability and isolation.
Self care first. It’s like if you want a pet, but don’t have any money or food. Relationships take work and if you’re not bettering yourself, then your relationship might be hard on you
As someone with virtually no romantic experience I find it incredibly strange to begin a relationship with someone under the pretense of “I’m interested in you romantically”. And by begin I just mean early on in a relationship, not necessarily at the very start. I don’t just feel romantically interested in people like that. To be honest I don’t know that I’ve ever felt romantically attracted to someone. It seems to make more sense to have a well established relationship before making anything romantic. But I get the impression that at that point women see little to no potential possibility of a romantic relationship, only a platonic one. Do I understand this wrongly? I’m genuinely interested in this, because I’ve essentially settle on the value of: if no one wants to establish a romantic relationship this way then I am not meant to have a romantic relationship. And that’s fine, I’ve accepted that if this is the case that I can’t change that.
It's not abnormal to not tend to feel romantic interest in people until you've gotten to know them better. It gets referred to as a "sexuality" (demisexual) but it seems like such a nonsense term to me. Maybe that's just because I can't understand how anyone can feel like they want to have a relationship with someone without having spoken to them. To me that's just physical attraction and I don't think physical attraction alone indicates any real kind of compatibility. I think the important thing in all cases is to not lead people on. If you start from a place of friendship and begin having feelings for someone... communicate it. Don't let it fester. You can't be lead on by someone who's oblivious and if you don't communicate that your feelings have shifted from platonic to romantic, you're essentially leading the other person on to believing it's still a purely platonic relationship. Just because you've fallen in love doesn't mean the other person feels the same. If they don't reciprocate your feelings, you or they are perfectly entitled to move on from that relationship. Nobody is entitled to a relationship with someone that that person doesn't want to have.
@Unironik I think I just reject that notion. Maybe for most people they do chose what their goal is early in a relationship, I honestly can't know that. But that seems a bit black and white. And the friend zone seems to be something mostly conjured by lack of communication.
If someone is seeking a romantic relationship or even a plutonic one then what’s wrong with just getting to the point? So long as you don’t force yourself on them or attempt to blackmail them then there shouldn’t be an issue with not wasting your time
@@Lapis_Pylosiphorum Who said there was something wrong with that? I just find it strange because I don't really have romantic attraction to someone until I've already known them, generally as friends. Its weird to me to start a relationship as romantic because I just don't really feel that until I already know someone. But obviously I'm in the minority of how people approach relationships.
@@jordanb7304 this sounds like the textbook experience of demiromantic people. Not demisexual but demiromantic. But at the same time normative romantic stuff often involves a mix of initial sexual attraction, general desire for a certain kind of future with someone someday, and then intention to explore through dating if the romantic connection is there or not. Or another normative experience is to have a friendship and sexual attraction and then you start to feel like your emotional feelings for this friend have shifted into being in love or at least wanting to date, and then you try to add romance to the friendship later on.
I think observing from my peers, a lot of times girls need to be mean for guys to back off, and when a girl isn't mean they take that as a rare kind like a shiny pokemon and that they have to get them. They should really get to know people better than to jump on that safeness they get from a welcoming person.
If you're a woman and you're not hideous, chances are you're drowning in so much unwanted attention that kindness isn't a rare thing to encounter (whether it's genuine or faked in attempt to get in your pants.) That's a unique form of loneliness, for sure. Men dont know what THAT feels like. The average man gets closer to zero attention/interest from the opposite sex and is so lonely and starved for attention that even the smallest forms of kindness, (the kind that would literally mean nothing to you,) would make a man start to fantasize about spending the rest of our lives with that woman. THATS a unique form of loneliness. Women don't care or feel bad if the average man is invisible to 99% of women. Men don't care or feel bad if 99% of men want to sleep with you and thats the attention you're getting, (even if most of the attention woman are getting is superficial, unsatifying or unfilling Probably because some people think negative attention is better than none, (and maybe that's why the men in their stories react to rejection out of anger?) It's a problem. I don't know what we do about it but hopefully I've pinpointed the empathetic gap in the dynamics. Realizing it helped me make sense of it and take rejections less personally
"We need to have conversations!" one moment later "We ignore messages if we don't like you" also moments later "You have to be respectful to us" . This conversation left me more confused than before, luckily for me i don't play the long run so women in my life are either in or out, i just need one female friend not an army, but i respect other people views on life, it's just mine is different. I think it would help the argument if there was actually a real discussion between men and women in the same chat so everybody can understand both points of view. Edit : I would like to clarify that i do not play friend to get the juice, i'm quite clear from the get go what my intentions are.
Are you dumb or something? It's pretty obvious that the people you need to have conversations with or the people that you respect is not the same that you ignore. The first one is for the people you care about and the second is for the people you don't care or don't have time to. It's the same for every normal person.
I appreciate these women sharing their experiences. Id want to come on to share my male perspective of being mistreated and feeling frustrated from interacting with women. EDIT: I don't feel ok using the word "manipulation" as it's too strong for my experience. So I changed it to "feeling frustrated"
I think on the Twitch channel there's a google form where you can apply on to be interviewed! I filled two out myself, but id love to see what youd have to say!
Most things stayed the same. Intensity varied thanks to woman's rights movement, but also due to other economic, cultural and political changes, good or bad. When I talk to my family, women from 16-84 have/had basically the same problems even when some laws and norms changed. What got better in my experience is that we talk about it and be there for each other. And sometimes this even happens with men. So not all hope lost certainly :)
@@potatotiel So? Chatrooms, ICQ, MSN, AOL, Yahoo Games, WoW, MySpace, plain old Usenet email groups all existed decades before. And of course internet dating. And discussion forums. Online behavior has changed and this is a perfectly valid and useful point to inquire about. Also, in many cases we can't totally unambiguously distinguish between "being hit on" and "being messaged" or "having a conversation with". So let's not reduce this to a strawman.
Tip for men : if you can't imagine her fucking another guy and never being with you romantically without feeling bad, you shouldnt be friends with her. Keeping it going will only bring you misery, festering resentment and toxicity. Tip for women : most guys will delude themselves into thinking they can handle it but are hurting. Break off the "friendship" for them. Keeping it going knowing that is very selfish and will only end in something very toxic for both of you. Also, don't be naive; most men who approach you for your number have some romantic interest, so treat it as such and don't encourage a friendship where is likely none possible (depends on circumstances obviously but a good general rule to have IMO). Another thing : men tend to be attracted to a women immediately, whereas for women it usually develops over time, which only adds to the initial confusion of intentions in the early stages. From my experience, only emotionally mature and fairly sexually skilled and sophisticated men & women can be friends without it turning toxic. It's fairly rare. Don't delude yourself (on either side) and break it off ASAP if you have feelings and you're not comfortable (see the above tip for men to see if you're truly comfortable).
Ard Vark I think they’re speaking in general terms. All situations are unique and some things may be different your situation. Ultimate it has to be your call after weighing all the factors.
@@jordanb7304 Kk. When I think of "friends" though, I think of my old classmates or people that I would joke around with at a workplace, or people I play games with. As a straight guy, and a virgin, I still maintain friendships with women, which is why I was asking. I'm not asexual either, I just don't feel any need to push myself on anyone romantically. My thought on the matter is if my feelings for someone are requited, we'll mutually agree on a romantic relationship eventually. I don't really see why I can't be friends with women with such a mindset. Would you say that I can be friends with women when weighing my disposition towards romance as a factor?
@@ardvark3131 you still what? If a friend to you is nothing outside of that then yeah you can't be friends. To me a friend is someone I have a relatively close relationship who's company I enjoy. Typically its only platonic, but I suppose there are flirtatious friends out there, Im not sure. If you can't have a relationship with someone that is them not your significant other, and they don't want that, then you should drop it. All it does is make your life more difficult.
There is this expectation towards men, where they are supposed to play with open cards at all times and at the same time be ok with how their surroundings react to that.
This! The conversation is always so onesided and pigeon holed into things having to be a certain way. D.K's none egalitarian comment at the end speaks volumes.
That's how it is, i learned to survive like that, and actually being vulnerable and hurt doesn't even bother me anymore, either you get used to it or you don't, that's how it is but it shouldn't be like that
I wish he called them out on their bullshit more....in his way tho. I love how he caught them with their hand in the cookie jar a few times, without them even realizing it before it was too late.
they are not supposed to play with open cards at all times, but they are supposed to take responsibility for their actions and if they are not able to do so its better u play with open cards than thinking that they were lead on or something... most men dont wanna accept the truth and rather dwell in their fantasy of hope of getting something out of a relationship... a guy can play with a pokerface and not reveal anything at all, but he should be able to deal with the consequences.
You can't have clear boundaries with closed cards my friend. I don't always want to be open myself, but it's important in those moments to say how you really feel so that miscommunication doesn't happen. Good luck x
41:30 "it was his tone" when i talk about my feelings im too anxious and try to sound as normal as possible. people usually never pick up on my negative emotions even irl. tone of voice can be disguised and manipulated both to show feelings you don't have or hide feelings you have.
Yeah I think that was quite narrow minded of her, for quite a lot of people the way they cope is to be very dry about it even if they feel terrible inside. That being said, we don't know how he felt, just that he didn't express it very well if he was really this sad - which mind you, while unfortunate, is understandable. Just think that perspective should be considered.
I think its important to stay enforced in your boundaries and not act hypocritically. Ive had women tell md "its not appropriate to flirt with me in that way." And ill say "sure, no problem!" But then they turn around and flirt with me in that way. That kind of deflates the boundrys previously set.
I was totally guilty of some of those things. I've already realised most of the ways I've been inappropriate with girls before watching the video, but it was still nice to get some confirmation and insight on how they might view these things.
These women are so cringey to listen to while talking about the friendzone. This is terrible advice for men. If you like someone, and she doesn't like you back. WALK AWAY, do NOT be her friend. Find someone else who appreciates you in the same way. Being friends with someone you want you back sucks. Don't waste your time with that shit, you deserve better.
55:06 I just realized it's like that meme about how most guys are so starved for affection that the slightest complement would make them think they are in love with you.
@@blackharpy7468 I mean, she can like you....in a platonic way. Sad that that isn't enough for some guys that they react negatively. Rejection feels terrible but that doesn't mean it's okay to lash out. I remember this guy I was friends with in high school asked me out. I said, "no". He got mad and called me a b*tch. Then asked me out again months later and I told him I didn't feel the same way. Eventually, I felt bad about not feeling the same, so I agreed to date him. I still wasn't feeling it. Guilting people into dating you is just wrong. Having a bad start in any romantic context is just bound to fail and leave all parties involved feeling awful.
I feel like there is a huge problem here. They sometimes say things like "Just do that, just do this"... and Im like "Its not that easy" So around min 13:30 one of them said something along the lines of "You should talk to them about this and make sure you are not getting the wrong hints" But now imagine it's a long time friendship and you suddenly ask "Idk, I feel like I'm getting these hints and want to make sure I'm not just an idiot" and then you actually got the wrong hints there... where is that friendship gonna go? Like, if you bring that up no matter if a girl to a guy or a guy to a girl... they will always think at the end of that "Is he/she into me? Can this still be a normal friendship?" it just becomes so damn awkward and that's just because nobody straight up wants to admit their feelings... If they did we would have the same scenario of a possible rejection and the friendship will become awkward/might end. Communication in that case is never gonna help it always is like an all or nothing scenario kind of thing.
@@cringestealer that's a risk you need to really think if you're willing to take. I've had it both not work and work for me with different people but that's because every time I was with those people I found it really hard to keep my feelings for them down. I also don't think that if you're honest and then get rejected that necessarily ruins that friendship, truly strong friendships can still get through something like that. They'll never be the same but they don't necessarily go away, and all you can do is hope that the other person is as willing as you to continue that friendship after a rejection.
Easiest way to not be in the friend zone : if you meet them and you find them romantically interesting, ask them if they're single and if yes, ask them out. Either it's yes and that's great or it's not and then you can be friends, or not. Either way, you're never "put into" the friend zone.
A Boys Talk about the topic would be nice, but its hard to not drift into defending even though I dont think all this was realy an attack. I think a male perspektiv on the fear of being lonly and the fear of having less value when not having a relationship would be nice, but maybe I'm projecting. Thank for the good work HG.
I'd be interested to hear that discussion, I would like to better understand males so I can have better friendships with them (I am married) I would just ask that it be kept in mind that whatever loneliness or whatnot people feel it isn't the responsibility of someone else to fix it. I think that would be a good place for both sides to understand each other better. It's easier to listen to someone saying they feel xyz when there is no emotional baggage being passed on to others.
@@piff8061 i think the truth would be more blunt than u think...i do know that many women are really thinking about the situations and stuff, while most men are very pragmatic and just think logically...attractive girl -> they want to hang around and try to hit on her at times... men usually dont get this much attention from girls so many of them accept the status quo as a "friend" and hope to be able to change the mind of the girl in the future...
@@kevinglucose4057 I see... Do you think it's the lack of attention that makes a guy hold on with just a tiny bit of hope for so long in the friendzone? I guess it is true, for me as female I have so many options my head is spinning. Trying to talk to everyone is an impossible task and ignoring some people is inevitable cause you get drowned in messages. Then the men get really pissed off cause they feel ignored on purpose or whatever. Had this happen yesterday where people either tried manipulating me to ralk to them or just give me shit for not spending enough time with them. I found many men are really indirect with what they want they tip toe around it all the time and I just wish they were blunt. Many times someone just wants like sex or something. I wish they just would say that instead of saying "hey, how are you? And then after that tell me they wanna do X X and X. Makes me not very optimistic when I see someone just say Hello cause 80% it means they want something a bit out there. But at the same time the amount if options you get as a female i feel has atleast made me more shallow... no longer is it getting to know someone even if there was an awkward start... it's like... oh its awkward first impression? They're out. Because I have plenty of other options.. It becomes such a weird and bizzare sorting system. It's really bad and then men feel alone and ignored and not wanted for obvious reason. It sucks!!
It's tough out here as a man. I am 28 years old, lifelong bachelor. Been just working on myself and trying to live my best life. Best of luck to everyone in the comments.
Im 34 and and the same as you i dont even approach women im shit scared to get reported for something ive heard stories that some have been reported for rape just because the girl thaught the guy looked ugly
1:46:15 "Ask if something you did was OK so I don't have to start that conversation". Like, WTF? This girl is expecting for other person to pamper her by asking whether or not she's OK with the way he behaves just so she doesn't have to start difficult conversations and voice her own opinion on her own accord. What I'm hearing in this entire conversation so far has been girls putting a bunch of responsibilities on the other person without ever stopping to think about their own responsibility in a relationship.
Holy moly... I'm so naive. I had no idea to which extent this was happening to girls. As a guy, you never get exposed to these experiences, unless it's a story told by your girlfriend or someone else close to you. I had heard a few horror stories, but had no idea how common they were. This is an important discussion.
The comment section just proves the need for discussions like these... a lot of people getting defensive and upset because they identified with what the men mentioned by the girls did/do. Taking insight from other people's opinion is the first step for personal development. You don't have to agree with what they are saying, but acknowledging their experiences and thoughts can be beneficial, specially if you have trouble socializing/talking to women (could apply to both genders).
The problem is much deeper than just that though. As men we get less emotional support. Seeing dudes go crazy in the comment section doesn’t really surprise me. Like it’s wrong but you can’t expect any different without addressing the root cause of the problem. Oh and by the way telling men that are watching these type of videos that they acknowledge the other gender’s experiences that’s less stigmatized to get help or have support isn’t gonna help your point. I’m not saying it to be a dick either, I just notice men in these type of communities don’t respond too well to it.
I have so many stories as well. It's really sad, but it's just normal to have men creep on you as a woman. I've even had coworkers fantasize over me to the point where I've had to get management involved, because they won't respect boundaries or take hints. And it sucks, because one of them was a good friend of mine prior to that experience. He went through a divorce and rebounded on me hard- but it was not mutual. I couldn't believe my friend had become this wall that suddenly was completely shut off from communication. No matter what I said or did, I was his "wife."
Guys are more willing to talk and connect with females, at the level that they want to experience vulnerability. Unfortunately, the follow on is that guys then equate that vulnerability to love, which is also why they choose not to communicate the same way with other guys.
Brother, hear me as a friend, please drop the word female from your vocabulary. Unless you’re identifying a corpse and writing a report about it for the police, loose that formality. Girls, women, ladies, people.. whatever else will be so much more conducive to the reality of your life. Female, in this context, sounds too anatomical to me and I think it draws a difference between a concept and a person. We’re all people, male/female - boys/girls - men/women.. not ideas. Peace, love, and pubic fuzz, my friend.
tbh...i dont know if thats really the reason since most guys are not even that open with woman as they claiming to be... i barely know a guy who is like really open with them...its just that they spend time with them and share a lot of commonalities, but open like....i tell u what im actually feeling, i tell u how difficult it was growing up, i tell u about women rejecting me...i havent experienced much of it
@@p00ch58 Using the term female feels...weird. Like if you're referring to a dog or something rather than a person. Same with male. Just my thought about it. Obviously people can disagree. w.e.
@@WatchThatKilcam15 Yep. They address smaller but real problems. There's nothing wrong with what they're saying, I don't get why people get offended by women sharing stories.
@i'm fucking high 1. Don't come with expectations. Just because you like/do things for a woman does not mean she's obligated to give you what you want. 2. pay attention to body language. Does she seem uninterested in holding a conversation with you? Is she uncomfortable (leaning away, avoiding eye contact, think 'nervous behavior)? Excuse yourself and leave. 3. Be upfront about why you're pursuing someone but not in a creepy way. Keep in mind that this involves heeding #2. If you see a girl you think is cute and you want to chat her up, look for something on her person or that she's doing that you think is cool and strike up a conversation. 'Hey, I like your shirt. Where'd you get it from?' And continue conversation from there WHILE KEEPING #2 IN MIND. 4. Act like she's a human being. Respect her space. It'll go a long way.
It would be nice, if they actually were interested in a genuine relationship. Unfortunately though, 99% of the time these guys just want to treat girls like anime body pillows and them ignore them so they can go back to their video games. Go watch a discussion with an incel. Every single time without fail, they end up referring to conventionally attractive girls as "club sluts" or some other similar term, and reveal that they don't actually want a serious relationship with these women anyway, because they think women like that could never love them, and would only take advantage of them for money. That's why incels get rejected. They don't actually feel love for the woman they desire, they feel lust, and hatred, and nothing else.
Not to sound like a doomer/incel but girls love social validation even when they have a significant other who provides them that already. Must be a some sort of personality trait or level of maturity.
@@Zombiecure13 *some* girls, yes, and some guys as well. The difference between a reasonable person and a doomer/incel is the level of generalization in their statements
As a guy who learned many of these lessons the hard way, I wish I'd had this information when I was in high school. Thank you for sharing your insights ladies. There were a lot of good points here, but the ones I've felt have been most helpful to me are clearly communicating boundaries and then respecting those boundaries, even if that means the relationship ends.
TLDW from personal experience, it feels as if men tend to have strong feelings for women who take time to listen due to nobody else every doing it. I had a similar experience with a girl who Im still friends with, but I realized I never actually liked her in that way.
I would like to see something like this but just with some neurodiverse people. People with Autism or ADHD or other diagnoses might have reasons for some behavior that NT people don't understand.
@@ScatterBrainedYouBetterFollow yes they got a strong disdain over their neurodiversity. I guess it stems from humans being social animals. Which makes social intelligence and charisma one of the most important reproductive markers. Better than strength or even wealth often.... .
I think it would be a bit useless. Not because ND people don't have valuable experiences, far from it, but because what actually needs to happen is for both men and women / both ND and NT people to meet on stream, like 4 on 4 or 3 on 3 and actually explain all of this to the "other side", because the biggest problem is that people don't understand each other. And the "other side" will ask questions you might think are obvious (but they don't), which leads to helping them to understand you and vice versa.
hope you could still somehow benefit from that. I agree with you guys that it need to scratch the surface more. Hope that at one point we could have a 1:1 setting and go thru the whole thing and not reacting to a lot of experience being shared. I tried to share my perspective and my learnings. I tried to express that I am willing to learn about the things that I did not understand and caused me frustration. As a really openminded, patient, empathic, and easily feeling protective/caring individual It was hard for me to reject people and I cried hard the first time I had to reject a person. Going thru that process over and over again made me feel lonely too. I thought people liked me for being me (and the circumstance was that my environment was predominately male) and not because I was a target for girlfriend material. that loneliness transformed me into being the "I have to meet every expectation of my boyfriend-girlfriend" which crushed me ... this is when I got my own reality check: "I need to set boundaries!". I hope this makes more sense to some of you. Since you don't have to forget that these girls on stream might read every comment. I encourage you to watch this video with an open heart. we are also (healthy)gamers and we might also come from a place of loneliness or disconnection at some point too. Thank you for listening. Champ.
Thank you for writing this. The last guy I had to reject that I had known for a while was a bit toxic and tried to hurt me further as well but I dropped him, ignored him, and blocked him before he could. It started with how I wanted to hang out but he turned it into a date. Not only that, I wanted my friend to come and at the start he said no. That should’ve already been bad enough. After the now turned date without my real approval and I went along with it because I had a hard time saying no, I did tell him I didn’t want anything more because I am not in a state to deal with a relationship. I have anxiety and depression and I don’t want to be a burden. He was initially supportive, but then turned too hopeful. A couple days later I had to fully shoot him down because he didn’t understand what I had told him and he turned to guilt tripping me for rejecting him and going as far as to saying he was going yo get drunk at a party and kill himself this summer. Needless to say I told him “Goodnight” and stopped responding till a month later because he would not stop messaging me as if he’d done nothing wrong. After that “goodnight” he sent some vague messages to try and get me to reply because he knew I was an empathetic and caring type of person. I didn’t budge because I’d had experience with these types of people before. A month later of messaging me and me not replying I told him that I no longer wanted to speak to him ever again. He hit me with that classic, “damn I thought you were cool.” Line. Bonus: When I rejected him, he implied that explicitly because I rejected HIM that would mean that my future relationship was destined to be abusive. It’s just sad, but that’s why we’ve got to be there for each other and not let people like these manipulate us. It shouldn’t have to be our responsibility to control the situation, but yeah. World we live in, huh?
But you have to walk a thousand miles In my shoes, just to see What it's like, to be me I'll be you, let's trade shoes Just to see what I'd be like to Feel your pain, you feel mine
When people talk about dropping hints and all that it really just kinda if irks me. If you like someone then just come out and say it instead of dancing around the topic and trying to get a confession out of the other person first?
Unironically Destiny had the best take on this. If either gender is playing the "game", theyre not mentally mature enough to be in a relationship so drop them.
I didn't expect this to be so relatable. I feel like even commenting on videos like this could "get me in trouble." Their stories and experiences are similar to some of my own, and now I've become so reclusive. I'll probably delete this comment. That's how low my trust levels are online. It no longer feels safe.
Because that is socially acceptable. Annoying the "kween" is not allowed in any circumstance. "Filthy peasant thinks he is worthy of my love/attention. Disgusting!" LOL Men are really pathetic, they became broken humans for some time now. Parents need to step up and make them have boundaries with others and respect themselves as humans.
@@really-._.- In my experience it's often the overbearing parents that break down their sons' boundries. On the other hand aloof parents could make their kids starved for attention.
Thank you Dr. K for 2:08:27. I think it's important to express this point, especially to your guests. Basically if either person isn't getting what they want from the relationship it's important that either party is allowed to terminate the relationship.
i wanted to comment to say how after listening to each of them tell their introduction, i immediately felt more connected to each person. I think it's important to notice how just giving someone a few seconds to express themselves and giving them attention while they do it really helps us feel connected to each other.
Holy crap I’m only halfway through the vod but just thinking about when I tried to set boundaries with my now ex-gf I would get this “what about me?” Response from her. In retrospect I wish I had done a better job of communicating my boundaries as well as recognizing when I needed boundaries, cause I too was under the impression that I wasn’t supposed to have certain boundaries (like I was being selfish/uncaring). But then to know when I needed boundaries and trying to communicate them, only to be hit with “well I have needs too” was just defeating. Literally made me feel invalidated.
I get a lot from Dr K videos but the most impressive thing is his ability to listen. I can see when he wants to say something but somebody else starts talking he just lets them speak in the whole time he's taking notes so he doesn't forget his points but can still practice reflective listening.
1:25:17 great comment 1:49:50 great comment 1:50:20 "People who can't control their emotions try to control other peoples behaviour" can go both ways but great comment. 1:50:28 "is the burden of responsibility on the person who is making the other person feel uncomfortable?" great question 1:50:37 Doctors summary of what the bold girl means. I wonder how this statement will be appealed in varying circumstances. Especially when the person making that statement is a man, and his target is a woman. 1:52:10 In certain impoverished black communities if a man shows that type of behaviour it is considered love. There was a tweet where a black woman said she wants men who behave like this, if they don't that means they don't love you. Most of the men in the comment section were dragging her stupid ass for encouraging toxic behaviour to men. It is something similar that I experienced in London. Where when a woman says "no" and you persist, that means you love her. I was told this by women. When I asked my male friends they helped by telling to disregard what women said about persisting and don't pursue her anymore. The very girl I liked even told me the story of how her mum and dad became lovers. It was after her mum rejected him (multiple occasions) and he persisted (in the story, he sounded like a creep. He came to her house with flowers, this was after multiple rejections) and got her. My crush told me this story with awe in her eyes. As a society we need to speak about how women not only are creating, rewarding (re-enforcing) and encouraging this culture but are not acknowledging it, blaming men like we are evil for practising what they taught us. 2:02:10 "Paying your rent" this is a man being taken advantage off, why don't you acknowledge that?? I'm really disappointed. The woman doesn't owe him SHIT. BUT we should call what they are doing out, they are taken advantage of him. Also, why don't you have a Men's space in your discord? This will be a good place to help gap the gender misunderstanding.
For the last bit, I think he was referring to someone who is offering to pay rent when it's unprompted or unwanted. That's a different situation than being taken advantage of.
@@jbark678 I am aware of that. However, what I am saying is: if the person accepts that knowing that the man is doing this because they love them and hope that if they express their adoration through financial support that they might win their love. I've seen women take advantage of men like this. They knew damn well but they did not state the fact that not only are they aware but what they are doing won't win them their love. A lot of guys have seen or heard men be taken advantage of like that.
The paying your rent is like twitch donations, not a guy actually paying their rent irl and staying friends. In this case, they have done literally nothing to take advantage of them, they are being cucked of their own volition. Not their jobs to save people from their own stupidity.
I just couldn't stop thinking about this woman with Aspergers that wouldn't stop hanging around me when I was working when I younger. She kept saying how she "doesn't need a boyfriend", but she kept showing me interest and my inexperienced ass was afraid to make a move on her and make things serious. The few times I did end up hanging out with her I was very awkward because I've never been "friends" with a woman and I had feelings for her and she was definitely sending so many mixed signals that my underdeveloped brain didn't know WTF to do. I didn't even have the balls to make a move on her at the time because I wasn't very experienced around dating women at the time, so I just stopped talking to her and that was it.
First things first, based on that story women remove your number from your socials. There are a lot of accounts that link your phone number/contacts so you’re searchable or discoverable by your number, that’s how they find everything.
I really appreciate Lissa's attitude. I think that a good mix of assertiveness and understanding creates a really healthy environment both for you and others, where you don't stand for people being unfair to you, but you're also sensitive enough to not hurt anyone in the process.
When I found your channel I would never thought how much your content would draw me in. First I looked at your videos and was like what the hell it's over 1 or 2 hours long. But I have learned so much about myself and people around me and I am so thankful for that. Keep up the good work you are amazing. And thank you for helping all those people. It takes a lot of effort and time and I really appreciate that. 👏👏👏
This was great and needed to be heard by all the young men out there. It sucks to be rejected but you might be the person rejecting someone else one day and imagine if that person stepped past your boundaries and made you uncomfortable or inappropriately touched you or something. Just simple golden rule stuff - treat others the way you would want to be treated
Education matters. Low status women step over boundaries like crazy. Sticking their nose in business they should not. When you deal with an actual educated woman, she'll respect your boundaries.
I, and a surprising amount of other guys have been inappropriately touched. Guess what, we don't care, some are totally into it, some are uncomfortable, but we don't contract fake depression and see a therapist for three years afterwards. I personally would love to be able to be so goddamn attractive that I have to constantly reject people, sure, it would be annoying, but it's better than not having any positive relationships at all
The thing is even when you do ask about boundaries, is something okay.. etc. they will still lie to you and pretend it is okay and then it becomes a guessing game as to what they are okay and not okay with and it can get ugly pretty fast. Not saying that guys do things that can be pretty bad but some women can have a lot of issues with communication as well. Also I've been friends with women where their default assumption is that I'm a guy and I'm being nice to them so that must mean I'm automatically hitting on them which can then lead to a lot of awkward situations and conversations or just flat out losing a friend without ever getting the chance to clear things up.
Yes it is well documented that - W O M A N - will do or say whatever to get whatever it is that they want no matter the consequences for them or anyone else involved.
If you want to keep the women in your life, find out why she's afraid to be honest with you about her boundaries. From my experience (and because I've done this myself), when women feel unsafe they will lie in an attempt to not get harassed or assaulted. Otherwise just stop talking with her. Her communication issue isn't your problem, and as long as your safe you'll find women who know how to communicate.
Its always problematic when a person talks about their own issues before being able to hear out another person's issues. In this case another person's issues being the video.
i dont know if i would agree on that...i have a few female friends and im always very nice to them and ive never been in a situation where they had to clear things up at a certain time... the only time that happened to me was when i really had feelings for someone and it was very visible to her...tho i still had no balls to admit that i truly had feelings when she confronted me with it by tellling me that we are just friends.... this was like 4 years ago and the funny thing is...we are like really good friends now and i have absolutely no romantic interest in her...last year she got her new boyfriend and i had 0 jealousy towards the guy she was dating. besides that i even actively looked to ask her about him and how he is doing...i really want them both to be happy as i see that he is a great influence for her...
i think a big part of the problem is, affection and intimacy is easily avaible for women but not for men. And i guess every human, no matter what gender wants some kind of affection and intimacy (doesnt have to be sexual)
One thing that hit me : When you treat them (men) as human they confuse it for affection. Somehow it sound wrong on so many level. It sound wrong that it is happening, but it also sound incredibly wrong when you think about WHY it's happening.
This was really interesting, but the friendzone conversation was quite depressing. There seemed to be an assumption that if a friend catches feelings for you, then he must have only been manipulating you all along. As a man, it would be extremely hurtful to develop feelings for someone, tell her, and then be accused of ulterior motives. And yes, if he already confessed romantic feelings to you and THEN you become best friends, those feelings are VERY unlikely to be gone. Although again, “playing the long game” sounds manipulative in a way that I feel is very unfair to the man.
I still don't understand how guys start to move crazy when a girl politely rejects them . I've been rejected a couple times before , never even had a gf but, I've never thought of insulting them like wtf😂 I heard a case where a girl rejected a guy and he stabbed her in the ear..wtaf man.
lol yeah I remember when my older sister wanted to break up with her boyfriend, they had been dating for a year or so, and he stabbed himself actually. with a fork through his hand. I still remember as a 12 year old little girl, cleaning up the pool of blood they both just left in the commotion. At least he did it to himself. He was really nice usually.
@@LiMaking Aside from putting a fork in your hand being a stupid thing to do... breaking up after a year is very different from someone rejecting you right away.
@@hgzmatt and somehow the outcome was equally forcefully violent and bad. It's about being able to handle rejection. Doesn't matter how much time has past. Majority of the time those nice guys being rejected "right away" has been playing the long game before the rejection though. From which I've personally experienced from a lot of guys who I thought were my friends. All of them turned nasty in different ways.
@@LiMaking You do understand that breakups hurt, right? Have you ever had someone decide out of the blue that they don't want you anymore in their life? After spending almost every day together. Overreacting may not be right.. but I can very much understand it and you should too. Unless there were never feelings involved in the first place. I love it when people think they can decide something unilaterally and expect the other person to not only be understanding but agree with it. That is a very difficult situation.
@@hgzmatt dude, understanding why a person reacted in a sertain way, is a completely different thing from thinking the action is in any way tolerable or will gve you any kind of respect. I can understand even the way h*tler justified his thinking, but I'm not going to just let that slide.
the problem is, all the education people want to push towards men is a large list of "don't dos" and when a guy ultimately wants to find a partner, sexualy or romantically, the first thing he has to do is disregard that list
You lost me in the 2nd half. I agree in most things in life telling people only what not to do and not what to actively do isn't super helpful and is missing something key. Don't objectify the person you're attracted to and forget they are a human being. So what DO you do when you want to find a partner? You think about how they might feel in the situation. You try to make them feel respected and like you genuinely care about their experience of things too. You don't disregard the list of stuff not to do. It's vitally important while trying to get a partner to indeed not cross the line.
The people in this age group grew up on the phone and the computer. I think that's the biggest issue as to why this is becoming more common. As someone in my mind 30's, I didn't have a cellphone until I was 18. And it wasn't a smart phone. Those didn't exist! Lol. I will always be grateful for this.
@@chilanya Comparative to now? Sure! I had to develop my social skills as a kid in order to just survive. There was no meme or internet culture. I think the generation under mine had a significantly harder time growing up. Technology is great, but we're too dependent on it for our social engagements.
I'm noticing a common theme so far, however im only a small portion into the video. The theme seems to be "We need to teach a lot of men what is acceptable and unacceptable but we dont know how." I really hope these conversations can lead to learning how to teach men about this. I wouldve loved to know a lot of the information and experience I had in high school and right afterwards.
I wish men AND women would teach each other, or the younger generation.. some of this is just common sense and decency. it shouldn't be up to women to offer free education everytime a man cannot respect a boundary that's clearly been set.
@@chilanya And it shouldnt be up to men either but someone has to step to the plate and help stop these kinds of things from happening. Do you think men want to sit and be awkward and not know what to do, overstep boundaries that they dont recognize are there? Do you think we enjoy this stuff? Being berated even when its justified constantly for how we date and percieve the world? No. We abso-fucking-lutely do NOT. We dont just sit here and try the same thing over and over again expecting different results as much as its portrayed. Should we be having to give lessons to MEN and WOMEN about what it should be like dating, no. But do we need to do it, YES. WE NEED TO. Because if we don't, we are only perpetuating the exact problems women are facing when it comes to dating men, boundaries, and any part of that topic.
@@3v068 honestly it's a chore for anyone, especially if the students are slow. i'll admit i made a lot of mistakes when i was younger and infatuated and desperate. and you're right we should do it - give lessons - it could also be a good role for fathers/mothers or older siblings. And i really think the PUA things - which are at least a form of teachings - are actually counterproductive because so much of the info given is toxic and dehumanizing women. but at least PUA are trying to teach something.
@@chilanya Boundaries are merely ways to control another person for your own benefit. Romantic Relationships by thier very nature are meant to be controlling.
I think this conversation has a missing part: the one in which the girls talk about their own experiences in getting rejected (assuming they're heterosexual) by guys, and their own experiences of unrequited love/crushes. This might have made them more empathetic to the male condition.
I can answer that. I asked someone out that I had a big crush on. He declined, I was like okie dokie. We remained friends. Not a big deal. Years later we ended up dating and now we're married. The girls in the video repeatedly talk about their wishes not being respected and being pressured/guilted into relationships, THAT is what they are saying is the issue in these situations. The problem isn't being asked out or being rejected, those are all normal parts of dating. The problem is when someone says no and the other person doesn't respect that no. No one owes another person a relationship, regardless of the gender, and how a person feels about being "rejected" doesn't justify pressuring them to change their mind. The argument of being "more empathetic to the male condition" doesn't apply. NO ONE has to accept a relationship they don't want to be in, nor should anyone accept a relationship out of pity or guilt.
One of my best friends is someone that friend zoned me. Grew to realize I prefer her as a friend anyways and am glad we continued to hang out afterwards. Sounds like Linda had the experience that my friend had and it worked out well for them too :)
It’s true but this is propaganda at its finest, that’s what feminism is, Joel Ra you make a good point but that’s just one result of this outcome and it occurred cause most parents teachers and managers where trained to snuff feelings outta young individuals
All comes down to the fact that it is a broken ideology that not only has hypocritical tendency but is rooted in the worst morals that does nothing to benefit even females let alone males & little for society the economy or world as a whole
You've forgot important side of this problem: sometimes one exploitate another who got in friendzone just to get attention and other benefits, knowing about this person's pain but keeping pulling and pushing to preserve benefits. Have anyone been there or seen that?
The whole part about being uncomfortable rejecting people is kind of the same reason men are usually uncomfortable approaching someone. The fear of retaliation is basically the same as the fear of rejection, the negative consequences are unpredictable and could be devastating
I just wanted to say - I saw a lot of people noting this in the Twitch chat, but when one of the girls mentioned giving a guy her phone number to be nice - while chat was right, one should never hand out their phone number, please keep in mind a few things: 1) when you're young, honestly, sometimes you get swept up in the moment. I know i've found myself knowing full well I shouldn't hand out my #, but sometimes theres a situation where you're scare/unsure what will happen if you don't, so you just do. Yes, we should be used to just handing out a rando # or something in these cases, but especially if you're young and haven't had this happen before, you just kind of react. 2) Many women are taught to just play along from a young age, which is not great, but so when you're suddenly asked it may just happen. Again, obviously it's not a good thing to do at all - but before you rage at especially young women for doing such a thing, remember women have often been brought up to just play along and be nice, and if you're young and haven't figured out how to say no, some may just act without full thought. Just asking for a little patience.
I can't stress enough how trying to be friend with someone who has a crush on you is just not a good thing. My experience with women is that they don't really manage their social life to well. I wouldn't want to be around someone who has feelings for me and not vice versa. That would be fucking manipulative on my part and I don't want to be in that situation. I can still be nice kind to this person, but I wouldn't want to hang out with her every single day or even be a close friend with her. If I don't like her like that, I won't play into her emotions by being around her to much. So the same should go vice versa. Stop trying to befriend people who have a crush on you, it's not mean it's mercy if anything. If you can't handle controlling who your socializing with, don't blame the opposing gender. You don't have to be friends with them so don't fall back on friendship with people who have feelings for you. Just don't do it. Period.
@@crispychknwings9829 not necessarily. But you don't want to be simping for this person, get outta that friendship immediately and start looking someone who likes you back. The person in question should understand and not play twisted games with your emotions when you don't hang out with them that often. You can be on good terms but avoid being too close after rejection.
From the perspective of a guy that has been rejected plenty times, I think that most of these weird behaviours from us are due to a lack of experience. It hurts our ego to be rejected, but I realized that we just have to be able to manage that feeling, it really helps to focus on your own stuff and treat women as people. Once I applied these changes in my life it started to go slightly better when it comes to find a girlfriend. I even rejected a couple times and got to experience what is like to be the one that rejects... and it sucks, it is uncomfortable to hurt someone's feelings. By the way, loved the video. I even joined to the meditation at the end.
The fun thing about the Friendzone is that it kinda tells the other person they are thought of in terms of a "can fuck" vs "cannot fuck" binary. Their friendship is implied to be something of a consolation prize for losers.... If that's not contempt, I don't know what could be.
well, if one is stuck in the friendzone then one is a) not a friend at all or b) a true friend that is not offended being in the friendzone, since one just wants to be friends.
It’s perfectly possible to ask out a friend and continue to be friends even after rejection. In college I asked out one of my close friends, and she turned me down. However, I made it very clear that I valued the friendship and didn’t want to lose it, I just figured I’d shoot my shot and see if she felt the same way. Then, and this is the most important part, going forward, I didn’t make it weird. I wasn’t making comments about how good she looked, or try to always hang out with her 1 on 1. I just continued talking about all the same stuff I would talk to her about before I asked her out. She even started dating my best friend. It was fine because I didn’t make it weird. I’m not jealous, they are great for each other and I am happy that they are happy. We are still friends and this happened years ago. The issue is that so many of these guys are incapable of not making it weird.
kinda sad that there are so many guys that are so lonely and desperate that they will fall in love with any girl that gives them even a shred of attention.
@facelessninetytwo aka Man of the Rain Well theres a couple of reasons they are much rarer, first of all men are very heavily pressured to find a girl much more so than women, secondly women are not taught to repress their emotions and are comfortable leaning on their friends for empathy and emotional support, thirdly men's value is heavily defined by the girl they get and how attractive they are whereas women tend to value personality way more
Yea its sad. Most men today either get NO female attention or negative female attention. So they go online and donate money to a girl they find attractive and she says "omg! ty so much, I love you and you have the biggest D" Now he is getting positive female attention.
@@jeremycalhoun6783 yep it's literally the reason only fans exists
@facelessninetytwo aka Man of the Rain lonely gal here, i feel compelled to show my presence now :p
i've been indoors/hermit-lifestyle for most of my life (still in highschool, never been to public, only online), and i'm attention-starved to the nines. i'm not sure where to go or what to do with my situation, just feel kinda stuck. especially with Miss Corona forcing me to stay inside--which is a good thing ofc but shit for the mood--it feels like things will just be this way forever. Watching Dr K has been a big help, but it still seems like there's a barrier of anxiety whenever I get too emotionally close to someone which just stops me in my tracks.
Sorry for rambling to you in particular. It's just a big bottle of mental hell.
@@lupostrasz I think that anxiety is felt by everyone, it's just another layer you've gotta break through.
Please do one of these with men. Or even men and women together. It's so sad how little the genders understand each other
@@sagemerson Looking forward to it!
@@sagemerson Thank you for everything! Waving back!
You mean sexes not gender
Agreed, I believe we should have both sides in order to find a common ground solution or something close to it.
Aswad Chowdhury :D
Important takeaway, rejection isn’t the end of the world. A girl saying no is not reflective of your value as a person.
easy just stop putting value on women in the first place.
@@hood4200 ah yes I see no future problem being caused by this
Rejection isn't reflective of you completely for sure, but @Purzenify's point is important. Always try to look to understand and improve on yourself.
Exactly! Women are a numbers game, there's a Coach Red Pill video with that title already
@Thanos Mighty only if you mean it in the strictly materialistic sense.
As a gay man who is no more than a spectator when it comes to heterosexual relationships, it's really astonishing how just broken and fucked the dynamics between the genders is. There's so many lonely depressed men, and so many women have had so many experiences with harassment that they've almost gotten used to it and it's really tragic. Also none of this is to say there's no problems in same sex relationships, there certainly are, but there seems to be such a gulf between the genders when it comes to communication and understanding how the other works and thinks and what they want.
yeah, i wish i was gay sometimes
I do also think that part of the issue is that there are a lot more hetero relationships than not. So you're limited by your pool. Hetero relationships being higher in quantity are due to also being higher in disfunction, due to mismatch of expectations, excluding gender differences. Solely on statistics.
The golden rule: communication is key. One of my fav professors said it all the time.
@@pedroassuncao2630 This. Also when you are hetero you can pretty much bet on everyone of the opposite you meet is a potential partner or can maybe see you as a potential partner. That changes everything day to day and especially in workplace environments. The same conversation two men can have could be the taken completely differently than 2 women. Men and Women cant ever be equal socially, theres too many different dynamics and positions in society to be dismantled.
It's not a gulf between genders as much as it is men treating women like inhuman objects they can insult, idealize, and use for their own pleasure and ego. Don't put this on the women for a second. The issues stem primarily from how men are conditioned.
"She thought we were dating and I thought I was just showing her around town" lol same for me and my wife.
I asked her on one date, and by the 2nd I was sure I was friendzoned when I babbled about how excited I was for Skyrim coming out in the park for 2 hours since I couldn't figure out anything else to say. By then I had assumed I'd bungled it and she had no interest. I was just trying to ride out that date and maybe end up with a friend at least.
Later she told me that I could have proposed right then and she would have said yes, lol...
Omg I'm melting! This story is so adorable!
Good for you man! This is good to hear
Did she give you any positive feedback during the conversation? Because if not I can imagine in your position I would of fucked it up mistakingly thinking I already did.
Good thing your children can play the Skyrim Reremake for the XBOX 730 ONE WII in 2035 so they understand how you fell for each other
What part of the video was this in? This is really sweet lmao
I like these conversations to gain a better perspective. What I don't like especially concerning this topic is that Men are obligated to seek out women if they want a partner in the overwhelming majority of the cases. That puts in a position where of course so many more of us are gonna go the wrong way about it strictly from a numbers standpoint. Combine that with having to muster up courage to approach a woman and put yourself in a position where you can be rejected that can affect you negatively. Mix that with the daily battles of inadecuacy we deal with that are exclusive to our gender. On top of all that and most importantly of all, men tend to be showed very little attention emotionally in society which puts us in situations where we go into these interactions with emotional problems already. All of this just sounds like you're setting us up for failure and if we do, we're forced to figure it out ourselves without support.
a lot of these problems are simply (not easily) solved by getting used to rejection (both genders); whether romantically, professionally, or just in general. People need to realize that not everything is in their control and sometimes we're just not gonna get what we want and that's ok.
@@izs6946 good luck getting women used to rejection LOL
That’s why feminism is a good idea. Despite what Sargon of cuckad would tell you feminism seeks to address a lot of these problems.
@@sausageanimations4301 There are bad people in every single group. The man hating feminists are a pretty small minority, but blow up on the internet because of their extremely offensive views. Pair that with the 'anti-sjw', 'feminazi' stuff that was really popular on youtube a few years back that showed off every single clip of a crazy radical feminist and it's easy to see why some people have negative associations with feminism.
Mainstream feminism doesn't need to change its name, it just needs to be louder about its positions and distance itself from the minority of crazies. There are groups of radicals in like that in every group. Feminism has been around for decades. It wouldn't be very smart to throw all that away and try to change their name and get everyone in support of feminism on board with a new name collectively and somehow not allow radicals to follow it.
That last part is just so relatable
I agree that a co-ed conversation like this would be really illuminating.
Indirect ways to decline someone's advances just keeps on the infinite cycle of hope for a desperate person. Instead of saying like "I'm not really interested in this right now" say something more akin to "I am not interested in you".
But why though? I don't really read a difference. If you can understand social situations you should understand those mean no.
@@cellceair8772 Sure, if your view of social interactions is the same and you are not desperate/horny/in love enough to be hopeful enough to keep going. Being ambiguous because you don't want to feel bad for being honest results in you being ambiguous, which is sometimes the problem.
This is important, especially when you consider the male perspective of the situation. Alot of guys are, wrongfully, told to be assertive and confident even if she initially says something close to no; this is akin to the "no means keep going problem". With the best of intentions, the guy may just think her rejection is reactive and could be quick to change, taken from the advice of his peers, hence why he continues; he's not wrong, many have denied initial interest only to be won over down the line but many more have either genuinely fucked up or been wrongly labeled as creepy.
This cannot happen if she says "I am not interested in you", it's decisive, concrete and leaves no further room for discussion.
@@blazinkid5178 I agree, it's so much better to just directly say "I'm not interested in you" instead of implying it's just not the right time. Especially over text, it just leaves no room for interpretation. Most people nowadays are just so shy of confrontation that they think not saying the truth about what they feel is somehow being "nice" to a guy.
@@Torbintime It's true, people nowadays want to present themselves as 'right' rather than do the right thing.
I'll admit, to play devil's advocate, there are rare cases where being respectful and direct with a guy has gotten a girl into trouble. The guys who'd hit a woman rather than hold the L are the worst, but the people who'd sell someone a dream instead of being direct are not too far off.
And I can't lie: Dr.K has messed up on the approach to this topic; it's been a purely female-centric narrative. He's gotta get some guys on and challenge the them with the opinions outlined on this video instead of just presenting more of the same side and declaring 'men' as the problem.
These days, we're all just fucking up.
I just assume no one is ever looking for a relationship so I never have this problem
Same, but its a sad world too :-D
Because people don't look for relationship, they happen. You can't force things, every bit of forcing it makes it less interesting in girls' eyes
@@stefanopaolini6117 So what you're saying is, men have to basically play women like cheap fiddles in order to get them in a relationship, e.g. by not overinvesting (forcing things), so the women won't lose interest?
@@SimbaBrank23
That's a hot take if I ever saw one. I'm curious how you read "play women like cheap fiddles" from "You can't force things".
I can peer review this. I do the same thing works like a charm.
UA-camr Contrapoints spoke about this issue in one of her videos. Being transgender, she has a perspective on online interactions both as male and female. The former being more frequently encountering radio silence and being ignored when sending messages, and the latter getting tons and tons of requests, and having to wade thru hundreds of garbage copy pasted or abusive messages. I wish Dr. K had a chat with her.
That would be dope, I think Contra also just has to offer much
Asad Parvez guillotine jeff bezos lul
With him why people use stupid language to disguize fiction with reality
Asad Parvez are you le triggered? pepesmirk
@@WrathofFenrir99 bruh rapacious oligarchs are kill hundreds of Americans each day by lobbying against policies that could easily prevent their deaths. This impending covid eviction crisis should be the breaking point, and if even that's not enough to convince the majority of us that it's time to band together and raise hell, America will be getting what it deserves.
just bottle your emotions and be hermit guys cant get rejected if you're always alone 4Head
That’s my plan
Been doing that for a few years now, it's working great.
Been doing that for 20 years straight
9 years PogU
Doing that for multiple years now....
Hes becoming less of a boomer as we go... HES EVOLVING
He’s aging... just backwards!
HE'S ASCENDING!
l e v e l u p
An old dog can learn new tricks if they are not that old and also have a Harvard education
I don't get why he calls himself that. He's 37 (same as my sibling). He's an older millennial. He also talks like a millennial and clearly grew up with that culture. No boomers here (un)fortunately.
I get friendzoned so often that I usually just friendzone the girl knowing she's going to friendzone me anyways.
Same
Girl here. Same- I just friendzone myself by default.
lol wtf @@potatotiel
Girl: nono, he told me that he was fine with just being friends
chat: HE IS STALLING BOYS!!!!!!!
No guy ever is fine just being friends. Ever. Boys only make advances to get in to a relationship.
@@Mrfiufaufou thats quite an overgeneralization. Even though i would have to agree in most cases.
pepeLaugh that was me
@@Mrfiufaufou gotta agree with that .
@@Mrfiufaufou it depends on the type of friends. Close friends yeah I agree, but having girls in the friends groups without wanting to be in a relationship can happend. But having a girl friend who calls me at 4 am because she broke up with her boyfriend yeah I'm not in it just to be friends.
Bruh, the problem I see is that there are so many men, myself included, that get abandoned from any social interaction with women.
I have had experiences where women talk behind my back about how they were stalked by me even though I happened to cycle in the same direction as them, namely, the center of town. They stopped and started gossiping, audibly... Like... I just cycle the same direction and I'm already doing something wrong.
How the fuck do you expect me to not feel good when a woman is being normal and nice to me?
I have autism and am introverted, conversations are already difficult for me, so whenever I have a good one it is special to me.
Wow that must feel so hurtful and isolating. I hope you're okay ): if that happened to me I think I would just stay inside all day
I feel you bro. I don't have autism but to me is also difficult to talk to people and what happend to you happends to me also. When I go walk alone some women also just gossip if I'm going the same direction as them or just move to the other side of the road for no reason. The difference is I know there's not a single woman who wants to be with me so having any hope is worthless. Yeah I'm always lonely but at least I'm never delusional.
i have autism too and it’s the opposite, i get paranoid that men want to take advantage of my lack of social queues and i can never tell if i’m being naive
@@roseclouds5838 that's the f-king point. Everything is opposite for women. They can never really understand.
Other Pill how about the empathy gap is on both sides? Women don't understand the emotional wasteland men wander in and how awful it is. Men don't understand that women live with the constant fear of sexual violence and being dehumanised and treated like a symbolic entity instead of a real person and how awful that is. How about we each take a while to consider these things and try to be in the other persons shoes instead of this immature competition?
This is infuriating, we have to get to a point in society where it's not only the males responsibility to court women, I've had women tell me they've liked me for long stretches of time and were " waiting " on my approach, why is it OUR job to sustain all the damage. If women would court men more we would have less problems like this.
A lot of women are pressured to conform to standards like not asking a guy out, just like men are pressured to take the lead and ask. I would argue it shouldn't be that either gender should have to take the lead on asking a person out, both should feel comfortable taking that step.
What is the purpose of make up? Women are expected to put additional effort into their looks. Men are "supposed" to be straightforward/bold, women are "supposed" to be fragile/mysterious. You are asking for too much
@@DimaRakesah most men don't have the problem of feeling uncomfortable about being approached. If we lived in a world where it was typical for women to approach men you wouldn't have this issue.... I fail to see how your rationale makes sense.
@@juno1597 Even if men say they wouldn't mind women approaching them, that doesn't mean women have been conditioned to do so. We're told not to be too forward or pushy, approaching a guy can be seen as desperate, too forward, and potentially be seen as the behavior of "loose" women. That's not to say I agree. I have often made the first move myself, heck I asked my now husband out on a date first, but as someone who has seen this conditioning first hand I don't expect all women to be like me.
I also would love if women approached men as frequently as men approached women. But that simply isn't gonna happen because of game theory. Women are more selective with their partners then men are. Mathematically, it's just more advantageous for women to let men come to them first.
I found a way to avoid retaliation sometimes when telling someone I'm not interested is to give their ego a way out, so telling them something like "Hey, I just wanted to let you know something. I am getting vibes from you that you might be romantically into me, and tbh I'm not interested in that kind of relationship, but I'm thinking it might also be just your way of being friendly, so I just wanted to clarify this with you" and so it gives them the opportunity to say "yeah that's just me being friendly" and then stop talking to me
Damn this shit genius.
That's awesome!
Well played, its a great idea in awkward situations to give ppl options and a way to withdraw somewhat honorably.
I personally hate the "I'm not interested in that kind of relationship". That is almost always a lie. Even if you're not actively looking, you aren't going to reject the man of your dreams. If you are "not interested in that kind of relationship" that implies that the problem is with you: you aren't ready for a relationship - but once you are, the guy is still in the game.
What you actually mean and should say is "I am not attracted to you at all". The phrasing is arguable, though I personally think it's better to be harsh. Better for the guy to get offended and storm off, than to hang around never giving up.
@@someguycalledcerberus9805 dont think its a womans responsibility to give a guy what he expects from her....i do know where u are coming from and that a harsh rejection will kill all hope in him, but it leaves the woman up for criticism too and she is human like a man is...so i dont think its fair to hold her accountable for a mans hurt feelings...he should hold himself accountable...
while its pretty nice if a woman is rude to him if needed...its not something one can expect.
Amazing video. A friendly reminder: Relationships are a 2 player game. If someone doesn't want to play with you. Respect their decision.
More like respect yourself enough to sign out.
@@EvilSapphireR It can go both ways. Respecting yourself is usually hand-in-hand with respecting other people.
if someone doesn't want to play with you, then respect yourself and walk away
What sad about it, people only want to play with attractive people.
This analogy is good because singleplayer games are much better than multiplayer games, in my opinion.
Please have a men and women stream, I felt there were a lot of times men in chat were having different views that could be explored.
Yh because will know they fake their behaviour when they are around women 😂
@@missandry2669 As opposed to faking their faces 🤣
My mom had to repeat a class in medical school when she rejected her professor. He failed her for no reason. Up until that point she was at the top of her class. This was before there were ways to get this addressed by the school.
this is sickening. kudos for your mama
There were always ways to get it addressed, and the same issues exist with getting it addressed now. Politics and fear
Wow really respect your mom and hope that guy rots in hell
Proof that she really passed the class?
Evidence?
Doctor K: "I might call you "you guys" but I will try to use "ya all"."
Proceeds to use "ya all" exactly three times and "you guys" the rest of the conversation because shit got real fast.
*y'all
@Kaeda Tiger "You guys" feels more like 'That group of people' rather than 'These males'
@@Thenewkrookkud Because semantically, it is. It has evolved to be a gender-neutral term. Before the same people who, despite all Latinos telling them to stop, keep pushing the LatinX thing, have made a decision for everyone else that "guys" is now offensive.
ahah
2 things I noticed on the friend zone subject that just made me think about how clueless girls are about male friends
"he just moved to my city were such good friends" nah hes 100% playing the long game, literally no one would do that for someone who rejected them and is now just a friend.
"i confessed to him and he had no idea it was gonna happen" yet you still ended up in a relationship so clearly he still liked you as more than a friend
They all know it too. They want to believe he just flipped to friend. Not how it works.
Regarding the "no real incels on stream", I remember interviews with Neonazis that were very similar. For some of them, when you create a safe environment, so they actually think and talk about their behavior, their believes start to shake. They somehow got into these communities because they felt understood by them and they just ride that emotional high.
It's something he points out in a video about conversation. If you argue with someone, they dig their heels in. If you listen to someone, repeat back what they say to them, or ask them to go into detail when they're confused they don't dig their heels in and are pretty open to changing their mind.
If you're a woman and you're not hideous, chances are you're drowning in so much unwanted attention that kindness isn't a rare thing to encounter (whether it's genuine or faked in attempt to get in your pants.) That's a unique form of loneliness, for sure. Men dont know what THAT feels like. The average man gets closer to zero attention/interest from the opposite sex and is so lonely and starved for attention that even the smallest forms of kindness, (the kind that would literally mean nothing to you,) would make a man start to fantasize about spending the rest of our lives with that woman. THATS a unique form of loneliness. Women don't care or feel bad if the average man is invisible to 99% of women. Men don't care or feel bad if 99% of men want to sleep with you and thats the attention you're getting, (even if most of the attention woman are getting is superficial, unsatifying or unfilling Probably because some people think negative attention is better than none, (and maybe that's why the men in their stories react to rejection out of anger?) It's a problem. I don't know what we do about it but hopefully I've pinpointed the empathetic gap in the dynamics.
this is very well felt and explained. Like I've been feeling incredibly lonely and yet I know I wouldn't get much genuine sympathy nor understanding about it.. which in turn adds to the loneliness. Depressing
Personally I have a theory that we do know which is "worse". Not trying to even get into that argument bc there's no winning on either side, both genders have unique struggles but here is what I will say: Think of what the men who feel this way have been getting up to, especially the youth, they go online and they troll the world, they have outbursts of violence, anger, bitterness etc etc, I seriously feel like these men have decided it is better to have negative attention and be that "problem" rather than be invisible. They find it better to be seen and hated than completely alone.
And tbh I feel like I agree, I'm in a better place in life now but I definitely remember the feelings and can think of behaviors I engaged in just to feel seen, from something as small as griefing in fucking Minecraft lmao to full on bullying etc etc, thank god I never went as far as to do anything illegal or even harrass women or something insane like that but I feel like I have never heard anyone talk about this.
Women sometimes live in a world of an abundance of fake attention and men with none, but there exists a group of men who felt the "nothing" and decided negative attention is better than complete invisability and isolation.
Girls: Omg all these boys keep falling in love with me lol.
Guys: I haven't enjoyed a single day on this earth.
Girls:This is a nice dress!.
Boys:... Dori me, interimo adapare dori me.
Ameno, ameno, latire... latire mo,
Dori me
If you think finding a relationship will solve your problems, you are up for a rude awakening my dude.
Self care first. It’s like if you want a pet, but don’t have any money or food. Relationships take work and if you’re not bettering yourself, then your relationship might be hard on you
Watch the interview with SweetAnita or KaceyTron.
The problems are just different
Great conversations ! "Love Is Not Enough" by Mark Manson is great listen on the topic of boundaries in romantic relationships.
As someone with virtually no romantic experience I find it incredibly strange to begin a relationship with someone under the pretense of “I’m interested in you romantically”. And by begin I just mean early on in a relationship, not necessarily at the very start. I don’t just feel romantically interested in people like that. To be honest I don’t know that I’ve ever felt romantically attracted to someone. It seems to make more sense to have a well established relationship before making anything romantic. But I get the impression that at that point women see little to no potential possibility of a romantic relationship, only a platonic one. Do I understand this wrongly?
I’m genuinely interested in this, because I’ve essentially settle on the value of: if no one wants to establish a romantic relationship this way then I am not meant to have a romantic relationship. And that’s fine, I’ve accepted that if this is the case that I can’t change that.
It's not abnormal to not tend to feel romantic interest in people until you've gotten to know them better. It gets referred to as a "sexuality" (demisexual) but it seems like such a nonsense term to me. Maybe that's just because I can't understand how anyone can feel like they want to have a relationship with someone without having spoken to them. To me that's just physical attraction and I don't think physical attraction alone indicates any real kind of compatibility.
I think the important thing in all cases is to not lead people on. If you start from a place of friendship and begin having feelings for someone... communicate it. Don't let it fester. You can't be lead on by someone who's oblivious and if you don't communicate that your feelings have shifted from platonic to romantic, you're essentially leading the other person on to believing it's still a purely platonic relationship. Just because you've fallen in love doesn't mean the other person feels the same. If they don't reciprocate your feelings, you or they are perfectly entitled to move on from that relationship. Nobody is entitled to a relationship with someone that that person doesn't want to have.
@Unironik I think I just reject that notion. Maybe for most people they do chose what their goal is early in a relationship, I honestly can't know that. But that seems a bit black and white. And the friend zone seems to be something mostly conjured by lack of communication.
If someone is seeking a romantic relationship or even a plutonic one then what’s wrong with just getting to the point? So long as you don’t force yourself on them or attempt to blackmail them then there shouldn’t be an issue with not wasting your time
@@Lapis_Pylosiphorum Who said there was something wrong with that? I just find it strange because I don't really have romantic attraction to someone until I've already known them, generally as friends. Its weird to me to start a relationship as romantic because I just don't really feel that until I already know someone. But obviously I'm in the minority of how people approach relationships.
@@jordanb7304 this sounds like the textbook experience of demiromantic people. Not demisexual but demiromantic. But at the same time normative romantic stuff often involves a mix of initial sexual attraction, general desire for a certain kind of future with someone someday, and then intention to explore through dating if the romantic connection is there or not. Or another normative experience is to have a friendship and sexual attraction and then you start to feel like your emotional feelings for this friend have shifted into being in love or at least wanting to date, and then you try to add romance to the friendship later on.
I think observing from my peers, a lot of times girls need to be mean for guys to back off, and when a girl isn't mean they take that as a rare kind like a shiny pokemon and that they have to get them. They should really get to know people better than to jump on that safeness they get from a welcoming person.
Being mean? I get what you're saying but they do different by pulling them aside and "imprint" the truth in their brain
If you're a woman and you're not hideous, chances are you're drowning in so much unwanted attention that kindness isn't a rare thing to encounter (whether it's genuine or faked in attempt to get in your pants.) That's a unique form of loneliness, for sure. Men dont know what THAT feels like. The average man gets closer to zero attention/interest from the opposite sex and is so lonely and starved for attention that even the smallest forms of kindness, (the kind that would literally mean nothing to you,) would make a man start to fantasize about spending the rest of our lives with that woman. THATS a unique form of loneliness. Women don't care or feel bad if the average man is invisible to 99% of women. Men don't care or feel bad if 99% of men want to sleep with you and thats the attention you're getting, (even if most of the attention woman are getting is superficial, unsatifying or unfilling Probably because some people think negative attention is better than none, (and maybe that's why the men in their stories react to rejection out of anger?) It's a problem. I don't know what we do about it but hopefully I've pinpointed the empathetic gap in the dynamics. Realizing it helped me make sense of it and take rejections less personally
@@ASPEDBUSDRIVER1well said
"We need to have conversations!" one moment later "We ignore messages if we don't like you" also moments later "You have to be respectful to us" . This conversation left me more confused than before, luckily for me i don't play the long run so women in my life are either in or out, i just need one female friend not an army, but i respect other people views on life, it's just mine is different.
I think it would help the argument if there was actually a real discussion between men and women in the same chat so everybody can understand both points of view.
Edit : I would like to clarify that i do not play friend to get the juice, i'm quite clear from the get go what my intentions are.
Imagine each person being different
@@davidemura4444 I'd rather not, it would scare the hell out of me.
@@astromonkey1757 feel you so much that it hurts.
Are you dumb or something? It's pretty obvious that the people you need to have conversations with or the people that you respect is not the same that you ignore. The first one is for the people you care about and the second is for the people you don't care or don't have time to. It's the same for every normal person.
@@RoMarXxD i dont know, my parents gave me an education so if someone asks me something i replay back.
I'd simp for Dr. K
Do we have the same name or is it a bug?
@@gijane2cantwaittoseeyou203 a bug, all the names look different to me
Stop using it as a verb.
It means simpleton, or someone lacking common sense.
Don't degrade yourself to that low, especially when it makes no sense.
@@illestvillain1971 calm down, it's only a joke :(
We all would, he's so precious.
I appreciate these women sharing their experiences. Id want to come on to share my male perspective of being mistreated and feeling frustrated from interacting with women.
EDIT: I don't feel ok using the word "manipulation" as it's too strong for my experience. So I changed it to "feeling frustrated"
100%
I think on the Twitch channel there's a google form where you can apply on to be interviewed! I filled two out myself, but id love to see what youd have to say!
chromatika I appreciate the support! I just think there were gaps where I felt like shedding light on how I would feel as a guy in these scenarios
@@rosmcdoodle o yeah i understand, theres a lot of ways we could communicate but sadly opt not to
Oh please come on I really wanna hear the male perspective so bad we need more understanding of eachother!!
He should do a discussion with older women and younger women, so they can discuss just how much things have changed in recent years.
I agree. At 32 I couldn’t really relate to much of what they were talking about.
Most things stayed the same. Intensity varied thanks to woman's rights movement, but also due to other economic, cultural and political changes, good or bad. When I talk to my family, women from 16-84 have/had basically the same problems even when some laws and norms changed. What got better in my experience is that we talk about it and be there for each other. And sometimes this even happens with men. So not all hope lost certainly :)
@@potatotiel So? Chatrooms, ICQ, MSN, AOL, Yahoo Games, WoW, MySpace, plain old Usenet email groups all existed decades before. And of course internet dating. And discussion forums. Online behavior has changed and this is a perfectly valid and useful point to inquire about. Also, in many cases we can't totally unambiguously distinguish between "being hit on" and "being messaged" or "having a conversation with". So let's not reduce this to a strawman.
Tip for men : if you can't imagine her fucking another guy and never being with you romantically without feeling bad, you shouldnt be friends with her. Keeping it going will only bring you misery, festering resentment and toxicity.
Tip for women : most guys will delude themselves into thinking they can handle it but are hurting. Break off the "friendship" for them. Keeping it going knowing that is very selfish and will only end in something very toxic for both of you. Also, don't be naive; most men who approach you for your number have some romantic interest, so treat it as such and don't encourage a friendship where is likely none possible (depends on circumstances obviously but a good general rule to have IMO).
Another thing : men tend to be attracted to a women immediately, whereas for women it usually develops over time, which only adds to the initial confusion of intentions in the early stages.
From my experience, only emotionally mature and fairly sexually skilled and sophisticated men & women can be friends without it turning toxic. It's fairly rare. Don't delude yourself (on either side) and break it off ASAP if you have feelings and you're not comfortable (see the above tip for men to see if you're truly comfortable).
What about old classmates of the other gender. If neither of us are very sexually savvy, can we just not be friends anymore?
Ard Vark I think they’re speaking in general terms. All situations are unique and some things may be different your situation. Ultimate it has to be your call after weighing all the factors.
@@jordanb7304 Kk. When I think of "friends" though, I think of my old classmates or people that I would joke around with at a workplace, or people I play games with. As a straight guy, and a virgin, I still maintain friendships with women, which is why I was asking. I'm not asexual either, I just don't feel any need to push myself on anyone romantically. My thought on the matter is if my feelings for someone are requited, we'll mutually agree on a romantic relationship eventually. I don't really see why I can't be friends with women with such a mindset. Would you say that I can be friends with women when weighing my disposition towards romance as a factor?
Women are attracted instantly as well. You'll know if a woman likes you within the first few minutes. If you don't know, move on.
@@ardvark3131 you still what? If a friend to you is nothing outside of that then yeah you can't be friends. To me a friend is someone I have a relatively close relationship who's company I enjoy. Typically its only platonic, but I suppose there are flirtatious friends out there, Im not sure.
If you can't have a relationship with someone that is them not your significant other, and they don't want that, then you should drop it. All it does is make your life more difficult.
There is this expectation towards men, where they are supposed to play with open cards at all times and at the same time be ok with how their surroundings react to that.
This! The conversation is always so onesided and pigeon holed into things having to be a certain way. D.K's none egalitarian comment at the end speaks volumes.
That's how it is, i learned to survive like that, and actually being vulnerable and hurt doesn't even bother me anymore, either you get used to it or you don't, that's how it is but it shouldn't be like that
I wish he called them out on their bullshit more....in his way tho. I love how he caught them with their hand in the cookie jar a few times, without them even realizing it before it was too late.
they are not supposed to play with open cards at all times, but they are supposed to take responsibility for their actions and if they are not able to do so its better u play with open cards than thinking that they were lead on or something...
most men dont wanna accept the truth and rather dwell in their fantasy of hope of getting something out of a relationship...
a guy can play with a pokerface and not reveal anything at all, but he should be able to deal with the consequences.
You can't have clear boundaries with closed cards my friend.
I don't always want to be open myself, but it's important in those moments to say how you really feel so that miscommunication doesn't happen.
Good luck x
41:30 "it was his tone"
when i talk about my feelings im too anxious and try to sound as normal as possible. people usually never pick up on my negative emotions even irl. tone of voice can be disguised and manipulated both to show feelings you don't have or hide feelings you have.
Yeah I think that was quite narrow minded of her, for quite a lot of people the way they cope is to be very dry about it even if they feel terrible inside. That being said, we don't know how he felt, just that he didn't express it very well if he was really this sad - which mind you, while unfortunate, is understandable. Just think that perspective should be considered.
@@JennyDarukat true
I think its important to stay enforced in your boundaries and not act hypocritically. Ive had women tell md "its not appropriate to flirt with me in that way." And ill say "sure, no problem!" But then they turn around and flirt with me in that way. That kind of deflates the boundrys previously set.
Boundaries only apply to you, silly!
Hypocrisy applies to everyone lol
You yourself are responsible of setting your own boundary, why blaming others for not reading your mind?
I was totally guilty of some of those things. I've already realised most of the ways I've been inappropriate with girls before watching the video, but it was still nice to get some confirmation and insight on how they might view these things.
PogU reformed
as a girl ive been guilty of some of the stuff that they said men did too. glad to be in an emotionally healthy place now
Yeah I agree, if only videos like this would be shown to us at a young age so we had a better understanding
These women are so cringey to listen to while talking about the friendzone. This is terrible advice for men. If you like someone, and she doesn't like you back. WALK AWAY, do NOT be her friend. Find someone else who appreciates you in the same way. Being friends with someone you want you back sucks. Don't waste your time with that shit, you deserve better.
Thank you! Do not entertain women if you want more and they do not reciprocate. You just hurt yourself.
55:06 I just realized it's like that meme about how most guys are so starved for affection that the slightest complement would make them think they are in love with you.
Where do you think memes come from exactly?
@@godspeedhero3671 Where do you think references or examples come from exactly?
@@godspeedhero3671 real life
@@kabukijo12 reality. Truth is, when a girl makes a guy a compliment it happens extremely rare. Therefore, she likes me if she does that
@@blackharpy7468 I mean, she can like you....in a platonic way. Sad that that isn't enough for some guys that they react negatively. Rejection feels terrible but that doesn't mean it's okay to lash out. I remember this guy I was friends with in high school asked me out. I said, "no". He got mad and called me a b*tch. Then asked me out again months later and I told him I didn't feel the same way. Eventually, I felt bad about not feeling the same, so I agreed to date him. I still wasn't feeling it. Guilting people into dating you is just wrong. Having a bad start in any romantic context is just bound to fail and leave all parties involved feeling awful.
I was once listening to a pick up artist. He said: "As long as she does not block you, it is not a rejection."
I feel like there is a huge problem here. They sometimes say things like "Just do that, just do this"... and Im like "Its not that easy"
So around min 13:30 one of them said something along the lines of "You should talk to them about this and make sure you are not getting the wrong hints"
But now imagine it's a long time friendship and you suddenly ask "Idk, I feel like I'm getting these hints and want to make sure I'm not just an idiot" and then you actually got the wrong hints there... where is that friendship gonna go?
Like, if you bring that up no matter if a girl to a guy or a guy to a girl... they will always think at the end of that "Is he/she into me? Can this still be a normal friendship?" it just becomes so damn awkward and that's just because nobody straight up wants to admit their feelings... If they did we would have the same scenario of a possible rejection and the friendship will become awkward/might end.
Communication in that case is never gonna help it always is like an all or nothing scenario kind of thing.
Thats the issue with this episode. Because the friend zone and simping works both ways. I wish I had a male perspective in this conversation.
I mean what's the alternative here stay in the dark? hope for some miracle? Stay a coward?
@@AR-dr1sb There is no solution. Its just coinflip at this point. Either guarantee staying friends or gamble your friendship for an opportunity.
@@cringestealer that's a risk you need to really think if you're willing to take. I've had it both not work and work for me with different people but that's because every time I was with those people I found it really hard to keep my feelings for them down.
I also don't think that if you're honest and then get rejected that necessarily ruins that friendship, truly strong friendships can still get through something like that. They'll never be the same but they don't necessarily go away, and all you can do is hope that the other person is as willing as you to continue that friendship after a rejection.
@@Sovspot I agree
Easiest way to not be in the friend zone : if you meet them and you find them romantically interesting, ask them if they're single and if yes, ask them out. Either it's yes and that's great or it's not and then you can be friends, or not. Either way, you're never "put into" the friend zone.
This comment would single handedly cure all incels.
This sums it up pretty well. Just don't be weird or creepy about it.
I'm confused, if she says no, then r u not in the friendzone...
thats a great strategy! And if the girl rejected you only because she needs more time to get to know you, then she will likely try to text you !
@@hood4200 How? The incel issue isn't completely reducible to the friend zone problem.
A Boys Talk about the topic would be nice, but its hard to not drift into defending even though I dont think all this was realy an attack.
I think a male perspektiv on the fear of being lonly and the fear of having less value when not having a relationship would be nice, but maybe I'm projecting.
Thank for the good work HG.
I'd be interested to hear that discussion, I would like to better understand males so I can have better friendships with them (I am married) I would just ask that it be kept in mind that whatever loneliness or whatnot people feel it isn't the responsibility of someone else to fix it. I think that would be a good place for both sides to understand each other better. It's easier to listen to someone saying they feel xyz when there is no emotional baggage being passed on to others.
I really want to understand men better I really want their perspectives too it would be so nice to be able to compare male and female perspectives
if you actuall finished listening to the whole thing, the girls requested that guys be in the discussion
@@piff8061 i think the truth would be more blunt than u think...i do know that many women are really thinking about the situations and stuff, while most men are very pragmatic and just think logically...attractive girl -> they want to hang around and try to hit on her at times...
men usually dont get this much attention from girls so many of them accept the status quo as a "friend" and hope to be able to change the mind of the girl in the future...
@@kevinglucose4057 I see... Do you think it's the lack of attention that makes a guy hold on with just a tiny bit of hope for so long in the friendzone? I guess it is true, for me as female I have so many options my head is spinning. Trying to talk to everyone is an impossible task and ignoring some people is inevitable cause you get drowned in messages. Then the men get really pissed off cause they feel ignored on purpose or whatever. Had this happen yesterday where people either tried manipulating me to ralk to them or just give me shit for not spending enough time with them. I found many men are really indirect with what they want they tip toe around it all the time and I just wish they were blunt. Many times someone just wants like sex or something. I wish they just would say that instead of saying "hey, how are you? And then after that tell me they wanna do X X and X. Makes me not very optimistic when I see someone just say Hello cause 80% it means they want something a bit out there.
But at the same time the amount if options you get as a female i feel has atleast made me more shallow... no longer is it getting to know someone even if there was an awkward start... it's like... oh its awkward first impression? They're out. Because I have plenty of other options.. It becomes such a weird and bizzare sorting system. It's really bad and then men feel alone and ignored and not wanted for obvious reason. It sucks!!
It's tough out here as a man. I am 28 years old, lifelong bachelor. Been just working on myself and trying to live my best life. Best of luck to everyone in the comments.
Keep at it bro, you'll find someone eventually 👊
@@eltyo340 Thanks. That's the only attitude moving forward ;)
@@leveleduphuman And if you don't w/e you can still be happy :)
Im 34 and and the same as you i dont even approach women im shit scared to get reported for something ive heard stories that some have been reported for rape just because the girl thaught the guy looked ugly
@@leveleduphuman just checking in man, any luck?
I mean the guys reacting to a nice apology with calling you a c**t, that's a great way to filter them out early.
I actually love getting comments like that because I know I dodged a bullet early LMAO
1:46:15 "Ask if something you did was OK so I don't have to start that conversation". Like, WTF? This girl is expecting for other person to pamper her by asking whether or not she's OK with the way he behaves just so she doesn't have to start difficult conversations and voice her own opinion on her own accord.
What I'm hearing in this entire conversation so far has been girls putting a bunch of responsibilities on the other person without ever stopping to think about their own responsibility in a relationship.
Holy moly... I'm so naive. I had no idea to which extent this was happening to girls. As a guy, you never get exposed to these experiences, unless it's a story told by your girlfriend or someone else close to you. I had heard a few horror stories, but had no idea how common they were. This is an important discussion.
Also a guy, I was shocked when I learned what women have to put up with.
Jeff B be observant when talking to women (friends or more) and try to make sure they’re not uncomfortable
Jeff B There’s a difference between being observant and walking on eggshells.
The comment section just proves the need for discussions like these... a lot of people getting defensive and upset because they identified with what the men mentioned by the girls did/do. Taking insight from other people's opinion is the first step for personal development. You don't have to agree with what they are saying, but acknowledging their experiences and thoughts can be beneficial, specially if you have trouble socializing/talking to women (could apply to both genders).
@Mortarion978 maybe if you find yourself agreeing with a 50 year old predator proffesor, its not the girls that are the problem..
Mortarion978 The thing is that a professor should know not to flirt with a student anyway, the power dynamic is way off.
The problem is much deeper than just that though. As men we get less emotional support. Seeing dudes go crazy in the comment section doesn’t really surprise me. Like it’s wrong but you can’t expect any different without addressing the root cause of the problem. Oh and by the way telling men that are watching these type of videos that they acknowledge the other gender’s experiences that’s less stigmatized to get help or have support isn’t gonna help your point. I’m not saying it to be a dick either, I just notice men in these type of communities don’t respond too well to it.
Everyone validate women experience.
All male experiences are un validated or showed as mesogyne because if you don't serve woman Ur sexist
Fuck that
@@jayjaynator2911 Hi,
Sorry you feel this way. Tell us more
I have so many stories as well. It's really sad, but it's just normal to have men creep on you as a woman. I've even had coworkers fantasize over me to the point where I've had to get management involved, because they won't respect boundaries or take hints. And it sucks, because one of them was a good friend of mine prior to that experience. He went through a divorce and rebounded on me hard- but it was not mutual. I couldn't believe my friend had become this wall that suddenly was completely shut off from communication. No matter what I said or did, I was his "wife."
“See you NT” was what i was thinking lol
Guys are more willing to talk and connect with females, at the level that they want to experience vulnerability. Unfortunately, the follow on is that guys then equate that vulnerability to love, which is also why they choose not to communicate the same way with other guys.
Brother, hear me as a friend, please drop the word female from your vocabulary. Unless you’re identifying a corpse and writing a report about it for the police, loose that formality. Girls, women, ladies, people.. whatever else will be so much more conducive to the reality of your life. Female, in this context, sounds too anatomical to me and I think it draws a difference between a concept and a person. We’re all people, male/female - boys/girls - men/women.. not ideas.
Peace, love, and pubic fuzz, my friend.
@@p00ch58 im describing the interaction of a heteronormative relationship. If you want to insinuate something else thats on you, not me.
tbh...i dont know if thats really the reason since most guys are not even that open with woman as they claiming to be...
i barely know a guy who is like really open with them...its just that they spend time with them and share a lot of commonalities, but open like....i tell u what im actually feeling, i tell u how difficult it was growing up, i tell u about women rejecting me...i havent experienced much of it
@@kevinglucose4057 that's because those females would dump those guys at a heartbeat and the guys knows it
@@p00ch58 Using the term female feels...weird. Like if you're referring to a dog or something rather than a person. Same with male. Just my thought about it. Obviously people can disagree. w.e.
loved having chat on screen for this one!
watching all the sensitive men get super triggered and attack strawmen in chat is just *chefs kiss*
@@WatchThatKilcam15 Yep. They address smaller but real problems.
There's nothing wrong with what they're saying, I don't get why people get offended by women sharing stories.
(hetero) adult men and women shouldn’t be trying to make friends with each other. this video confirmed that for ne
When Commander Shepard said "We'll bang, okay?" was the first time I was confronted with a man so brazingly stepping over boundries.
@i'm fucking high Be attractive.
@i'm fucking high 1. Don't come with expectations. Just because you like/do things for a woman does not mean she's obligated to give you what you want.
2. pay attention to body language. Does she seem uninterested in holding a conversation with you? Is she uncomfortable (leaning away, avoiding eye contact, think 'nervous behavior)? Excuse yourself and leave.
3. Be upfront about why you're pursuing someone but not in a creepy way. Keep in mind that this involves heeding #2. If you see a girl you think is cute and you want to chat her up, look for something on her person or that she's doing that you think is cool and strike up a conversation. 'Hey, I like your shirt. Where'd you get it from?' And continue conversation from there WHILE KEEPING #2 IN MIND.
4. Act like she's a human being. Respect her space. It'll go a long way.
@i'm fucking high Go for it! And just remember, don't try to internalize rejection. Think of it as an experience and learn from it.
The one from Mass Effect?
Being a girl must be hard, can't even imagine people telling you they're attracted to you all the time. My life is so easy, nobody even knows I exist.
It's better to have the validation of having people being attracted to you than having the invalidation of your existence not even being noticed
It would be nice, if they actually were interested in a genuine relationship. Unfortunately though, 99% of the time these guys just want to treat girls like anime body pillows and them ignore them so they can go back to their video games. Go watch a discussion with an incel. Every single time without fail, they end up referring to conventionally attractive girls as "club sluts" or some other similar term, and reveal that they don't actually want a serious relationship with these women anyway, because they think women like that could never love them, and would only take advantage of them for money. That's why incels get rejected. They don't actually feel love for the woman they desire, they feel lust, and hatred, and nothing else.
too much and too little attention are both bad things okay we don't have to turn this into the oppression olympics
Not to sound like a doomer/incel but girls love social validation even when they have a significant other who provides them that already. Must be a some sort of personality trait or level of maturity.
@@Zombiecure13 *some* girls, yes, and some guys as well. The difference between a reasonable person and a doomer/incel is the level of generalization in their statements
As a guy who learned many of these lessons the hard way, I wish I'd had this information when I was in high school. Thank you for sharing your insights ladies. There were a lot of good points here, but the ones I've felt have been most helpful to me are clearly communicating boundaries and then respecting those boundaries, even if that means the relationship ends.
TLDW from personal experience, it feels as if men tend to have strong feelings for women who take time to listen due to nobody else every doing it. I had a similar experience with a girl who Im still friends with, but I realized I never actually liked her in that way.
I feel this in my soul.
1000%%%%%%%
Everyone respects your boundaries, until you enforce them, because everyone thinks they should be the exception
I would like to see something like this but just with some neurodiverse people. People with Autism or ADHD or other diagnoses might have reasons for some behavior that NT people don't understand.
Or because women statistically overwhelmingly despise autistic men.
@@ScatterBrainedYouBetterFollow I'm kinda interested in where you got that statistic from. I would like to look further into it.
@@ScatterBrainedYouBetterFollow yes they got a strong disdain over their neurodiversity. I guess it stems from humans being social animals. Which makes social intelligence and charisma one of the most important reproductive markers. Better than strength or even wealth often.... .
I think it would be a bit useless. Not because ND people don't have valuable experiences, far from it, but because what actually needs to happen is for both men and women / both ND and NT people to meet on stream, like 4 on 4 or 3 on 3 and actually explain all of this to the "other side", because the biggest problem is that people don't understand each other. And the "other side" will ask questions you might think are obvious (but they don't), which leads to helping them to understand you and vice versa.
hope you could still somehow benefit from that. I agree with you guys that it need to scratch the surface more. Hope that at one point we could have a 1:1 setting and go thru the whole thing and not reacting to a lot of experience being shared. I tried to share my perspective and my learnings. I tried to express that I am willing to learn about the things that I did not understand and caused me frustration. As a really openminded, patient, empathic, and easily feeling protective/caring individual It was hard for me to reject people and I cried hard the first time I had to reject a person. Going thru that process over and over again made me feel lonely too. I thought people liked me for being me (and the circumstance was that my environment was predominately male) and not because I was a target for girlfriend material. that loneliness transformed me into being the "I have to meet every expectation of my boyfriend-girlfriend" which crushed me ... this is when I got my own reality check: "I need to set boundaries!".
I hope this makes more sense to some of you. Since you don't have to forget that these girls on stream might read every comment. I encourage you to watch this video with an open heart. we are also (healthy)gamers and we might also come from a place of loneliness or disconnection at some point too. Thank you for listening. Champ.
maybe because I am kinda of an avoidant type and it makes me anxious
Thank you for writing this. The last guy I had to reject that I had known for a while was a bit toxic and tried to hurt me further as well but I dropped him, ignored him, and blocked him before he could. It started with how I wanted to hang out but he turned it into a date. Not only that, I wanted my friend to come and at the start he said no. That should’ve already been bad enough. After the now turned date without my real approval and I went along with it because I had a hard time saying no, I did tell him I didn’t want anything more because I am not in a state to deal with a relationship. I have anxiety and depression and I don’t want to be a burden. He was initially supportive, but then turned too hopeful. A couple days later I had to fully shoot him down because he didn’t understand what I had told him and he turned to guilt tripping me for rejecting him and going as far as to saying he was going yo get drunk at a party and kill himself this summer. Needless to say I told him “Goodnight” and stopped responding till a month later because he would not stop messaging me as if he’d done nothing wrong. After that “goodnight” he sent some vague messages to try and get me to reply because he knew I was an empathetic and caring type of person. I didn’t budge because I’d had experience with these types of people before. A month later of messaging me and me not replying I told him that I no longer wanted to speak to him ever again. He hit me with that classic, “damn I thought you were cool.” Line.
Bonus: When I rejected him, he implied that explicitly because I rejected HIM that would mean that my future relationship was destined to be abusive.
It’s just sad, but that’s why we’ve got to be there for each other and not let people like these manipulate us. It shouldn’t have to be our responsibility to control the situation, but yeah. World we live in, huh?
But you have to walk a thousand miles
In my shoes, just to see
What it's like, to be me
I'll be you, let's trade shoes
Just to see what I'd be like to
Feel your pain, you feel mine
When people talk about dropping hints and all that it really just kinda if irks me. If you like someone then just come out and say it instead of dancing around the topic and trying to get a confession out of the other person first?
I feel like sometimes it’s just hard on both ends to do that
Unironically Destiny had the best take on this. If either gender is playing the "game", theyre not mentally mature enough to be in a relationship so drop them.
@@bc9554 bro that's a hard cap. Couldn't agree more.
I didn't expect this to be so relatable.
I feel like even commenting on videos like this could "get me in trouble." Their stories and experiences are similar to some of my own, and now I've become so reclusive.
I'll probably delete this comment. That's how low my trust levels are online. It no longer feels safe.
It's interesting when Dr. K said women can overstep men's boundaries, a lot of smirking.
Because that is socially acceptable. Annoying the "kween" is not allowed in any circumstance. "Filthy peasant thinks he is worthy of my love/attention. Disgusting!" LOL
Men are really pathetic, they became broken humans for some time now. Parents need to step up and make them have boundaries with others and respect themselves as humans.
@@really-._.- In my experience it's often the overbearing parents that break down their sons' boundries. On the other hand aloof parents could make their kids starved for attention.
@@really-._.- the phrase "Men are pathetic" indicates either a samskar or ego
@@really-._.- hwat
@@cerberv5040 Yes my mother is killing me by doing that, i just can't live/leave
Thank you Dr. K for 2:08:27. I think it's important to express this point, especially to your guests.
Basically if either person isn't getting what they want from the relationship it's important that either party is allowed to terminate the relationship.
i wanted to comment to say how after listening to each of them tell their introduction, i immediately felt more connected to each person. I think it's important to notice how just giving someone a few seconds to express themselves and giving them attention while they do it really helps us feel connected to each other.
So in this society, women are the precious people and men aren't, so therefore men have to get preciousness. WHAT WERE WE ALL THINKING?
All I heard in this conversation is that men have to acclimate to almost everything women
Holy crap I’m only halfway through the vod but just thinking about when I tried to set boundaries with my now ex-gf I would get this “what about me?” Response from her. In retrospect I wish I had done a better job of communicating my boundaries as well as recognizing when I needed boundaries, cause I too was under the impression that I wasn’t supposed to have certain boundaries (like I was being selfish/uncaring). But then to know when I needed boundaries and trying to communicate them, only to be hit with “well I have needs too” was just defeating. Literally made me feel invalidated.
I get a lot from Dr K videos but the most impressive thing is his ability to listen. I can see when he wants to say something but somebody else starts talking he just lets them speak in the whole time he's taking notes so he doesn't forget his points but can still practice reflective listening.
1:25:17 great comment
1:49:50 great comment
1:50:20 "People who can't control their emotions try to control other peoples behaviour" can go both ways but great comment.
1:50:28 "is the burden of responsibility on the person who is making the other person feel uncomfortable?" great question
1:50:37 Doctors summary of what the bold girl means. I wonder how this statement will be appealed in varying circumstances. Especially when the person making that statement is a man, and his target is a woman.
1:52:10 In certain impoverished black communities if a man shows that type of behaviour it is considered love. There was a tweet where a black woman said she wants men who behave like this, if they don't that means they don't love you. Most of the men in the comment section were dragging her stupid ass for encouraging toxic behaviour to men.
It is something similar that I experienced in London. Where when a woman says "no" and you persist, that means you love her. I was told this by women. When I asked my male friends they helped by telling to disregard what women said about persisting and don't pursue her anymore. The very girl I liked even told me the story of how her mum and dad became lovers. It was after her mum rejected him (multiple occasions) and he persisted (in the story, he sounded like a creep. He came to her house with flowers, this was after multiple rejections) and got her. My crush told me this story with awe in her eyes. As a society we need to speak about how women not only are creating, rewarding (re-enforcing) and encouraging this culture but are not acknowledging it, blaming men like we are evil for practising what they taught us.
2:02:10 "Paying your rent" this is a man being taken advantage off, why don't you acknowledge that?? I'm really disappointed. The woman doesn't owe him SHIT. BUT we should call what they are doing out, they are taken advantage of him. Also, why don't you have a Men's space in your discord? This will be a good place to help gap the gender misunderstanding.
For the last bit, I think he was referring to someone who is offering to pay rent when it's unprompted or unwanted. That's a different situation than being taken advantage of.
@@jbark678 I am aware of that. However, what I am saying is: if the person accepts that knowing that the man is doing this because they love them and hope that if they express their adoration through financial support that they might win their love.
I've seen women take advantage of men like this. They knew damn well but they did not state the fact that not only are they aware but what they are doing won't win them their love. A lot of guys have seen or heard men be taken advantage of like that.
Hey are your timestamps correct? I don't hear the quotes or "great comments" at the time stamps
@@lordfrogIII I'm refering to text comments
The paying your rent is like twitch donations, not a guy actually paying their rent irl and staying friends. In this case, they have done literally nothing to take advantage of them, they are being cucked of their own volition. Not their jobs to save people from their own stupidity.
Dating for men is like dying of thirst in the Sahara desert however dating for women is like dying of thirst in the pacific ocean
I like this. You made me stop and think.
Have a nice day
@@LeafyK you too 💯
You can't drink salt water... You will dehydrate even more matr
How is it like dying
@@jayjaynator2911 Exactly what he was trying to say.
I just couldn't stop thinking about this woman with Aspergers that wouldn't stop hanging around me when I was working when I younger. She kept saying how she "doesn't need a boyfriend", but she kept showing me interest and my inexperienced ass was afraid to make a move on her and make things serious. The few times I did end up hanging out with her I was very awkward because I've never been "friends" with a woman and I had feelings for her and she was definitely sending so many mixed signals that my underdeveloped brain didn't know WTF to do. I didn't even have the balls to make a move on her at the time because I wasn't very experienced around dating women at the time, so I just stopped talking to her and that was it.
i wish he would end every video with "Ok CHAT" - I really felt it's absence on this one
First things first, based on that story women remove your number from your socials. There are a lot of accounts that link your phone number/contacts so you’re searchable or discoverable by your number, that’s how they find everything.
I really appreciate Lissa's attitude. I think that a good mix of assertiveness and understanding creates a really healthy environment both for you and others, where you don't stand for people being unfair to you, but you're also sensitive enough to not hurt anyone in the process.
When I found your channel I would never thought how much your content would draw me in. First I looked at your videos and was like what the hell it's over 1 or 2 hours long. But I have learned so much about myself and people around me and I am so thankful for that. Keep up the good work you are amazing. And thank you for helping all those people. It takes a lot of effort and time and I really appreciate that. 👏👏👏
This was great and needed to be heard by all the young men out there. It sucks to be rejected but you might be the person rejecting someone else one day and imagine if that person stepped past your boundaries and made you uncomfortable or inappropriately touched you or something. Just simple golden rule stuff - treat others the way you would want to be treated
Education matters. Low status women step over boundaries like crazy. Sticking their nose in business they should not. When you deal with an actual educated woman, she'll respect your boundaries.
I, and a surprising amount of other guys have been inappropriately touched. Guess what, we don't care, some are totally into it, some are uncomfortable, but we don't contract fake depression and see a therapist for three years afterwards. I personally would love to be able to be so goddamn attractive that I have to constantly reject people, sure, it would be annoying, but it's better than not having any positive relationships at all
Cat Funt stop trolling you incel. If you are serious then you actually do need a therapist
I think these kinds of videos are really important, good job organizing this.
This topic is a double-edged sword
What do you mean?
@@user-bi4tr2lj4m seconded
@@user-bi4tr2lj4m saying one party has it harder is going to rail up the other one
The thing is even when you do ask about boundaries, is something okay.. etc. they will still lie to you and pretend it is okay and then it becomes a guessing game as to what they are okay and not okay with and it can get ugly pretty fast. Not saying that guys do things that can be pretty bad but some women can have a lot of issues with communication as well. Also I've been friends with women where their default assumption is that I'm a guy and I'm being nice to them so that must mean I'm automatically hitting on them which can then lead to a lot of awkward situations and conversations or just flat out losing a friend without ever getting the chance to clear things up.
Yes it is well documented that - W O M A N - will do or say whatever to get whatever it is that they want no matter the consequences for them or anyone else involved.
If you want to keep the women in your life, find out why she's afraid to be honest with you about her boundaries. From my experience (and because I've done this myself), when women feel unsafe they will lie in an attempt to not get harassed or assaulted.
Otherwise just stop talking with her. Her communication issue isn't your problem, and as long as your safe you'll find women who know how to communicate.
Its always problematic when a person talks about their own issues before being able to hear out another person's issues. In this case another person's issues being the video.
i dont know if i would agree on that...i have a few female friends and im always very nice to them and ive never been in a situation where they had to clear things up at a certain time...
the only time that happened to me was when i really had feelings for someone and it was very visible to her...tho i still had no balls to admit that i truly had feelings when she confronted me with it by tellling me that we are just friends....
this was like 4 years ago and the funny thing is...we are like really good friends now and i have absolutely no romantic interest in her...last year she got her new boyfriend and i had 0 jealousy towards the guy she was dating. besides that i even actively looked to ask her about him and how he is doing...i really want them both to be happy as i see that he is a great influence for her...
i think a big part of the problem is, affection and intimacy is easily avaible for women but not for men.
And i guess every human, no matter what gender wants some kind of affection and intimacy (doesnt have to be sexual)
One thing that hit me : When you treat them (men) as human they confuse it for affection. Somehow it sound wrong on so many level. It sound wrong that it is happening, but it also sound incredibly wrong when you think about WHY it's happening.
Why is it happening?
Because on a daily basis men don't get the benefit of being treated like human being by other, especially women
"Girlfriendzoned" You are awesome Dr. K
This was really interesting, but the friendzone conversation was quite depressing. There seemed to be an assumption that if a friend catches feelings for you, then he must have only been manipulating you all along. As a man, it would be extremely hurtful to develop feelings for someone, tell her, and then be accused of ulterior motives.
And yes, if he already confessed romantic feelings to you and THEN you become best friends, those feelings are VERY unlikely to be gone. Although again, “playing the long game” sounds manipulative in a way that I feel is very unfair to the man.
I was pumped about this video either way, but was pleasantly surprised to see a forum of women weighing in. Nice!
I still don't understand how guys start to move crazy when a girl politely rejects them . I've been rejected a couple times before , never even had a gf but, I've never thought of insulting them like wtf😂 I heard a case where a girl rejected a guy and he stabbed her in the ear..wtaf man.
lol yeah I remember when my older sister wanted to break up with her boyfriend, they had been dating for a year or so, and he stabbed himself actually. with a fork through his hand. I still remember as a 12 year old little girl, cleaning up the pool of blood they both just left in the commotion. At least he did it to himself. He was really nice usually.
@@LiMaking Aside from putting a fork in your hand being a stupid thing to do... breaking up after a year is very different from someone rejecting you right away.
@@hgzmatt and somehow the outcome was equally forcefully violent and bad. It's about being able to handle rejection. Doesn't matter how much time has past. Majority of the time those nice guys being rejected "right away" has been playing the long game before the rejection though. From which I've personally experienced from a lot of guys who I thought were my friends. All of them turned nasty in different ways.
@@LiMaking You do understand that breakups hurt, right? Have you ever had someone decide out of the blue that they don't want you anymore in their life? After spending almost every day together. Overreacting may not be right.. but I can very much understand it and you should too. Unless there were never feelings involved in the first place.
I love it when people think they can decide something unilaterally and expect the other person to not only be understanding but agree with it. That is a very difficult situation.
@@hgzmatt dude, understanding why a person reacted in a sertain way, is a completely different thing from thinking the action is in any way tolerable or will gve you any kind of respect. I can understand even the way h*tler justified his thinking, but I'm not going to just let that slide.
the problem is, all the education people want to push towards men is a large list of "don't dos" and when a guy ultimately wants to find a partner, sexualy or romantically, the first thing he has to do is disregard that list
You lost me in the 2nd half. I agree in most things in life telling people only what not to do and not what to actively do isn't super helpful and is missing something key. Don't objectify the person you're attracted to and forget they are a human being. So what DO you do when you want to find a partner? You think about how they might feel in the situation. You try to make them feel respected and like you genuinely care about their experience of things too. You don't disregard the list of stuff not to do. It's vitally important while trying to get a partner to indeed not cross the line.
@@VioletEmerald the problems I've had have nothing to do with disrespecting women or objectification
The people in this age group grew up on the phone and the computer. I think that's the biggest issue as to why this is becoming more common. As someone in my mind 30's, I didn't have a cellphone until I was 18. And it wasn't a smart phone. Those didn't exist! Lol. I will always be grateful for this.
Do you think you had a better experience because of it?
@@chilanya Comparative to now? Sure! I had to develop my social skills as a kid in order to just survive. There was no meme or internet culture. I think the generation under mine had a significantly harder time growing up. Technology is great, but we're too dependent on it for our social engagements.
I'm noticing a common theme so far, however im only a small portion into the video. The theme seems to be "We need to teach a lot of men what is acceptable and unacceptable but we dont know how." I really hope these conversations can lead to learning how to teach men about this. I wouldve loved to know a lot of the information and experience I had in high school and right afterwards.
I wish men AND women would teach each other, or the younger generation.. some of this is just common sense and decency. it shouldn't be up to women to offer free education everytime a man cannot respect a boundary that's clearly been set.
@@chilanya And it shouldnt be up to men either but someone has to step to the plate and help stop these kinds of things from happening.
Do you think men want to sit and be awkward and not know what to do, overstep boundaries that they dont recognize are there? Do you think we enjoy this stuff? Being berated even when its justified constantly for how we date and percieve the world? No. We abso-fucking-lutely do NOT. We dont just sit here and try the same thing over and over again expecting different results as much as its portrayed.
Should we be having to give lessons to MEN and WOMEN about what it should be like dating, no. But do we need to do it, YES. WE NEED TO. Because if we don't, we are only perpetuating the exact problems women are facing when it comes to dating men, boundaries, and any part of that topic.
@@3v068 honestly it's a chore for anyone, especially if the students are slow. i'll admit i made a lot of mistakes when i was younger and infatuated and desperate. and you're right we should do it - give lessons - it could also be a good role for fathers/mothers or older siblings. And i really think the PUA things - which are at least a form of teachings - are actually counterproductive because so much of the info given is toxic and dehumanizing women. but at least PUA are trying to teach something.
@@chilanya Boundaries are merely ways to control another person for your own benefit. Romantic Relationships by thier very nature are meant to be controlling.
It should be easy. Women just need to say directly "I'm not interested in you". That's literally it.
I think this conversation has a missing part: the one in which the girls talk about their own experiences in getting rejected (assuming they're heterosexual) by guys, and their own experiences of unrequited love/crushes. This might have made them more empathetic to the male condition.
I can answer that. I asked someone out that I had a big crush on. He declined, I was like okie dokie. We remained friends. Not a big deal. Years later we ended up dating and now we're married. The girls in the video repeatedly talk about their wishes not being respected and being pressured/guilted into relationships, THAT is what they are saying is the issue in these situations. The problem isn't being asked out or being rejected, those are all normal parts of dating. The problem is when someone says no and the other person doesn't respect that no. No one owes another person a relationship, regardless of the gender, and how a person feels about being "rejected" doesn't justify pressuring them to change their mind. The argument of being "more empathetic to the male condition" doesn't apply. NO ONE has to accept a relationship they don't want to be in, nor should anyone accept a relationship out of pity or guilt.
@@DimaRakesah: I agree with everything you said; which is not in contradiction with what I said.
One of my best friends is someone that friend zoned me. Grew to realize I prefer her as a friend anyways and am glad we continued to hang out afterwards. Sounds like Linda had the experience that my friend had and it worked out well for them too :)
This is the effect of teaching literally half the population to supress and deny their feelings.
*all
It’s true but this is propaganda at its finest, that’s what feminism is, Joel Ra you make a good point but that’s just one result of this outcome and it occurred cause most parents teachers and managers where trained to snuff feelings outta young individuals
@@Lapis_Pylosiphorum what is propaganda for what? I'm not sure I follow mate.
@Joel Ra Feminism is propaganda to women and I guess beta simp males
All comes down to the fact that it is a broken ideology that not only has hypocritical tendency but is rooted in the worst morals that does nothing to benefit even females let alone males & little for society the economy or world as a whole
You've forgot important side of this problem: sometimes one exploitate another who got in friendzone just to get attention and other benefits, knowing about this person's pain but keeping pulling and pushing to preserve benefits.
Have anyone been there or seen that?
That girl said that she flirt to 'motivate' ppl? And doesn't expect that they'll think you like'em?
The whole part about being uncomfortable rejecting people is kind of the same reason men are usually uncomfortable approaching someone. The fear of retaliation is basically the same as the fear of rejection, the negative consequences are unpredictable and could be devastating
I just wanted to say - I saw a lot of people noting this in the Twitch chat, but when one of the girls mentioned giving a guy her phone number to be nice - while chat was right, one should never hand out their phone number, please keep in mind a few things: 1) when you're young, honestly, sometimes you get swept up in the moment. I know i've found myself knowing full well I shouldn't hand out my #, but sometimes theres a situation where you're scare/unsure what will happen if you don't, so you just do. Yes, we should be used to just handing out a rando # or something in these cases, but especially if you're young and haven't had this happen before, you just kind of react. 2) Many women are taught to just play along from a young age, which is not great, but so when you're suddenly asked it may just happen.
Again, obviously it's not a good thing to do at all - but before you rage at especially young women for doing such a thing, remember women have often been brought up to just play along and be nice, and if you're young and haven't figured out how to say no, some may just act without full thought. Just asking for a little patience.
I can't stress enough how trying to be friend with someone who has a crush on you is just not a good thing. My experience with women is that they don't really manage their social life to well. I wouldn't want to be around someone who has feelings for me and not vice versa. That would be fucking manipulative on my part and I don't want to be in that situation. I can still be nice kind to this person, but I wouldn't want to hang out with her every single day or even be a close friend with her.
If I don't like her like that, I won't play into her emotions by being around her to much. So the same should go vice versa. Stop trying to befriend people who have a crush on you, it's not mean it's mercy if anything. If you can't handle controlling who your socializing with, don't blame the opposing gender. You don't have to be friends with them so don't fall back on friendship with people who have feelings for you. Just don't do it. Period.
That's my situation. Feelings eventually grew for that person. So does that mean 4+ years of friendship down the drain?
@@crispychknwings9829 not necessarily. But you don't want to be simping for this person, get outta that friendship immediately and start looking someone who likes you back. The person in question should understand and not play twisted games with your emotions when you don't hang out with them that often. You can be on good terms but avoid being too close after rejection.
From the perspective of a guy that has been rejected plenty times, I think that most of these weird behaviours from us are due to a lack of experience. It hurts our ego to be rejected, but I realized that we just have to be able to manage that feeling, it really helps to focus on your own stuff and treat women as people. Once I applied these changes in my life it started to go slightly better when it comes to find a girlfriend. I even rejected a couple times and got to experience what is like to be the one that rejects... and it sucks, it is uncomfortable to hurt someone's feelings.
By the way, loved the video. I even joined to the meditation at the end.
I lot of female friends . I only be friend with a girl I don't find attractive(my type).
The fun thing about the Friendzone is that it kinda tells the other person they are thought of in terms of a "can fuck" vs "cannot fuck" binary. Their friendship is implied to be something of a consolation prize for losers....
If that's not contempt, I don't know what could be.
well, if one is stuck in the friendzone then one is a) not a friend at all or b) a true friend that is not offended being in the friendzone, since one just wants to be friends.
If you believe there isn't any value in friendship and being with women can only be about fucking for you, then sure I can see why you feel that way
It’s worse than that. As Jordan Peterson said, paraphrased, “you’re cool but I don’t think your genes should pass on to the next generation”
That's kinda the truth though. Whether you appeal to someone in that way is the difference. I don't see is a contemptuous every time
@@broaz885 not right after rejection though
It’s perfectly possible to ask out a friend and continue to be friends even after rejection. In college I asked out one of my close friends, and she turned me down. However, I made it very clear that I valued the friendship and didn’t want to lose it, I just figured I’d shoot my shot and see if she felt the same way. Then, and this is the most important part, going forward, I didn’t make it weird. I wasn’t making comments about how good she looked, or try to always hang out with her 1 on 1. I just continued talking about all the same stuff I would talk to her about before I asked her out. She even started dating my best friend. It was fine because I didn’t make it weird. I’m not jealous, they are great for each other and I am happy that they are happy. We are still friends and this happened years ago. The issue is that so many of these guys are incapable of not making it weird.