kinda sad that there are so many guys that are so lonely and desperate that they will fall in love with any girl that gives them even a shred of attention.
@facelessninetytwo aka Man of the Rain Well theres a couple of reasons they are much rarer, first of all men are very heavily pressured to find a girl much more so than women, secondly women are not taught to repress their emotions and are comfortable leaning on their friends for empathy and emotional support, thirdly men's value is heavily defined by the girl they get and how attractive they are whereas women tend to value personality way more
Yea its sad. Most men today either get NO female attention or negative female attention. So they go online and donate money to a girl they find attractive and she says "omg! ty so much, I love you and you have the biggest D" Now he is getting positive female attention.
@facelessninetytwo aka Man of the Rain lonely gal here, i feel compelled to show my presence now :p i've been indoors/hermit-lifestyle for most of my life (still in highschool, never been to public, only online), and i'm attention-starved to the nines. i'm not sure where to go or what to do with my situation, just feel kinda stuck. especially with Miss Corona forcing me to stay inside--which is a good thing ofc but shit for the mood--it feels like things will just be this way forever. Watching Dr K has been a big help, but it still seems like there's a barrier of anxiety whenever I get too emotionally close to someone which just stops me in my tracks. Sorry for rambling to you in particular. It's just a big bottle of mental hell.
As a gay man who is no more than a spectator when it comes to heterosexual relationships, it's really astonishing how just broken and fucked the dynamics between the genders is. There's so many lonely depressed men, and so many women have had so many experiences with harassment that they've almost gotten used to it and it's really tragic. Also none of this is to say there's no problems in same sex relationships, there certainly are, but there seems to be such a gulf between the genders when it comes to communication and understanding how the other works and thinks and what they want.
I do also think that part of the issue is that there are a lot more hetero relationships than not. So you're limited by your pool. Hetero relationships being higher in quantity are due to also being higher in disfunction, due to mismatch of expectations, excluding gender differences. Solely on statistics.
@@pedroassuncao2630 This. Also when you are hetero you can pretty much bet on everyone of the opposite you meet is a potential partner or can maybe see you as a potential partner. That changes everything day to day and especially in workplace environments. The same conversation two men can have could be the taken completely differently than 2 women. Men and Women cant ever be equal socially, theres too many different dynamics and positions in society to be dismantled.
It's not a gulf between genders as much as it is men treating women like inhuman objects they can insult, idealize, and use for their own pleasure and ego. Don't put this on the women for a second. The issues stem primarily from how men are conditioned.
This sounds selfish, but as someone who I consider to be a morally decent man, the fact most women have had to deal with men harassing them for not reciprocating romantic feelings just makes it even harder for me to approach and open up to women. The assumption from a lot of women that me or men as a whole are going to take getting rejected in a toxic way and that even if we don't take it negatively they just "dodged a bullet" is so demotivating. I don't want anyone to be afraid of me because of my gender.
I think most men are accepting the rejection in a good way but media tends to talk about the ones who don't and paints a false picture of all men are running over boundaries me(21) and most of my male friends are ok with getting rejected and "how dare someone rejects me" is a joke material :)) rejection is not a personal attack and people have different tastes with different things going on in their lives, just gotta be bold and try again so you can find people who love you and believe me they exist
But they aren't. It's not like women are attacking a whole gender. We're attacki g the abusers and harrassers. For the forst time we're speaking up about our consent - something that has been pushed around for ages. It really isn't that hard to approach someome and play by the same rules. You can ask if something is okay. If no? Then No. If yes? Continue as normal. Nothing about the way you should approach women changed, we are just voicing how to definitely not do it.
nawmurr I think you taking what I said differently than I meant. What I was trying to say is that the prevalence of harassment that so many women have experienced has made many people on both sides, including myself, jaded and cynical when it comes to romantic relationships. I don’t think women are attacking men as a whole and I absolutely support women speaking up about their experiences and trying to educate on what is and isn’t okay, I’m more lamenting the added baggage that widespread harassment has added to potential relationships.
@@skibadibapmbapdap I'm sorry, I think I was falsely reading some undertones and indeed took on the original post a little differently. For me personally I am not afraid of men in general. I am not afraid of the whole gender but more of the situations where I can be taken advantage of. If someone approaches me and is willing to set and respect boundaries, I am not afraid of them. I understand that with all the publicity around the topic might come off as disencouraging for you and some other people, but I believe instead it's a good moment to stop and reflect if your actions could and should be changed.
In general I (male) have the feeling in my life there is no one male that I can trust enough to speak about my problems. I think that is a major poblem and in my experience it is easier to talk with females about it because they can partly relate to emotinal problems. So i can understand why a Man would fall for a Woman that listens to him because that builds a trust that he has never had a chance to experience. And the tought process of a Man could then be: I can trust her -> She understands me -> Must be love because no man would ever put so much effort in understanding me. Which goes the complete wrong way because it is a normal interaction as a Friend not a romantic interaction... Thats how i would try to explain why men are so drawn to almost every friendly woman. All just my opinion.
I concluded to just take my problems by myself to not hurt anyone I talk to which is also not an ideal situation. Also i never had a friend come to me to tell me his problems but would be happy to talk about them if they need to be dealt with.
@@Forward.4 my guess is some sort of flame at dr. K at his "I'm actually deeply in love with one of you right now" joke which to be fair wasnt that good and I kinda cringed but he seemed to realize that it didnt land and he took it with stride which is pretty cool for him. no harm no foul.
41:18 I found it kinda hard to listen to her story because I think it's a good example how the sexes sometimes don't understand each other. She might be totally right, but when Dr. K asked why she's so sure that he faked it she essentially responded with "he didn't cry his eyes out like I did". I don't cry everytime I'm sad, especially if it's a very deep feeling. When I break up with someone or someone I like passes or moves away I won't cry all the time. Actually, I will mostly suffer in silence and just feel like total crap most of the day or week or longer. Does that make my suffering better? No. I might even worsen the effect by not giving into the emotion. And I think that many more guys do that too, for a variety of reasons. So just because we're not as expressive that doesn't mean we're not feeling anything or mean something with what we say.
I'm more disturbed by the 8 year gap. She's 17 and he's 25. That's a lot. The other thing is that even though the guy may be upset, he should never hold it over the girl's head. It's the same vice versa. If you're sad about rejection, turn to someone else instead of the person who has rejected you. It's a lot to bare on the person who has rejected you and what? They are supposed to get into a relationship with you out of pity? If they don't love you, they are going to be miserable. There's also the fact that more recently, my friends went through something similar. The guy confessed to the girl and she rejected him by saying she liked another guy. She apparently went on and on, and this was on a voice call so she couldn't see his reaction. The boy just sat there, silent, about to cry for a couple hours. He was really hurt by it and he told her afterwards, making her feel guilty, and when my friend felt guilty, she tried to explain herself to the boy, making the boy feel worse. The thing was that the guy went on to call her fat, call her stupid, make fun of her in front of his friends by insinuating she was ugly, and just a bunch of gross things. What he did was wrong. I asked him why he did all of that because my female friend was deep in depression because of the abuse and the guy said, "revenge". I think that for the guy to get to that point, there was a distinct lack of empathy. My friend tried to bandage an open wound and rubbed salt in it instead. Sometimes girls make mistakes. My friend thought that she was cushioning the blow by explaining herself. That was dumb. I just wish for guys to understand that, before doing anything bad to the people they are interested in.
@Rubena Alexander It seems that your friend went through a lot and I'm genuinely sorry to hear that. I hope she gets help soon. However, this seems to be based on a different issue, so I don't think the two stores connect all that well. Let me explain. Firstly, stories are always anecdotal. To me it sounds like the girl in the video had a bad experience and therefore thinks poorly of all men. That's wrong. Straight up. I interpreted your story as a bad mannered or maybe even empathy lacking person. But the problem I'm referring to is rather based on communication. In the video story there might also be a lack of empathy but in that case I don't blame the guy alone. She put a lot of emphasis on how bad she felt and cried while not thinking about how other people express or suppress their emotions. I don't know anything about you, but being rejected by a person you truly love is unbelievably painful. Many people try to change their crushe's view on the relationship, understandably. So if you know what I'm talking about, please try to understand me. That being said, there's no excuse for bullying a girl into depression. But neither is there a reason to turn into a bully yourself because of that.
So true. I also almost never cry when I'm sad. You just kinda sit there and question your humanity, because you feel like crap and know that you probably should be crying.
"She thought we were dating and I thought I was just showing her around town" lol same for me and my wife. I asked her on one date, and by the 2nd I was sure I was friendzoned when I babbled about how excited I was for Skyrim coming out in the park for 2 hours since I couldn't figure out anything else to say. By then I had assumed I'd bungled it and she had no interest. I was just trying to ride out that date and maybe end up with a friend at least. Later she told me that I could have proposed right then and she would have said yes, lol...
Did she give you any positive feedback during the conversation? Because if not I can imagine in your position I would of fucked it up mistakingly thinking I already did.
Indirect ways to decline someone's advances just keeps on the infinite cycle of hope for a desperate person. Instead of saying like "I'm not really interested in this right now" say something more akin to "I am not interested in you".
@@cellceair8772 Sure, if your view of social interactions is the same and you are not desperate/horny/in love enough to be hopeful enough to keep going. Being ambiguous because you don't want to feel bad for being honest results in you being ambiguous, which is sometimes the problem.
This is important, especially when you consider the male perspective of the situation. Alot of guys are, wrongfully, told to be assertive and confident even if she initially says something close to no; this is akin to the "no means keep going problem". With the best of intentions, the guy may just think her rejection is reactive and could be quick to change, taken from the advice of his peers, hence why he continues; he's not wrong, many have denied initial interest only to be won over down the line but many more have either genuinely fucked up or been wrongly labeled as creepy. This cannot happen if she says "I am not interested in you", it's decisive, concrete and leaves no further room for discussion.
@@blazinkid5178 I agree, it's so much better to just directly say "I'm not interested in you" instead of implying it's just not the right time. Especially over text, it just leaves no room for interpretation. Most people nowadays are just so shy of confrontation that they think not saying the truth about what they feel is somehow being "nice" to a guy.
@@Torbintime It's true, people nowadays want to present themselves as 'right' rather than do the right thing. I'll admit, to play devil's advocate, there are rare cases where being respectful and direct with a guy has gotten a girl into trouble. The guys who'd hit a woman rather than hold the L are the worst, but the people who'd sell someone a dream instead of being direct are not too far off. And I can't lie: Dr.K has messed up on the approach to this topic; it's been a purely female-centric narrative. He's gotta get some guys on and challenge the them with the opinions outlined on this video instead of just presenting more of the same side and declaring 'men' as the problem. These days, we're all just fucking up.
I like these conversations to gain a better perspective. What I don't like especially concerning this topic is that Men are obligated to seek out women if they want a partner in the overwhelming majority of the cases. That puts in a position where of course so many more of us are gonna go the wrong way about it strictly from a numbers standpoint. Combine that with having to muster up courage to approach a woman and put yourself in a position where you can be rejected that can affect you negatively. Mix that with the daily battles of inadecuacy we deal with that are exclusive to our gender. On top of all that and most importantly of all, men tend to be showed very little attention emotionally in society which puts us in situations where we go into these interactions with emotional problems already. All of this just sounds like you're setting us up for failure and if we do, we're forced to figure it out ourselves without support.
a lot of these problems are simply (not easily) solved by getting used to rejection (both genders); whether romantically, professionally, or just in general. People need to realize that not everything is in their control and sometimes we're just not gonna get what we want and that's ok.
@@sausageanimations4301 There are bad people in every single group. The man hating feminists are a pretty small minority, but blow up on the internet because of their extremely offensive views. Pair that with the 'anti-sjw', 'feminazi' stuff that was really popular on youtube a few years back that showed off every single clip of a crazy radical feminist and it's easy to see why some people have negative associations with feminism. Mainstream feminism doesn't need to change its name, it just needs to be louder about its positions and distance itself from the minority of crazies. There are groups of radicals in like that in every group. Feminism has been around for decades. It wouldn't be very smart to throw all that away and try to change their name and get everyone in support of feminism on board with a new name collectively and somehow not allow radicals to follow it.
@@stefanopaolini6117 So what you're saying is, men have to basically play women like cheap fiddles in order to get them in a relationship, e.g. by not overinvesting (forcing things), so the women won't lose interest?
UA-camr Contrapoints spoke about this issue in one of her videos. Being transgender, she has a perspective on online interactions both as male and female. The former being more frequently encountering radio silence and being ignored when sending messages, and the latter getting tons and tons of requests, and having to wade thru hundreds of garbage copy pasted or abusive messages. I wish Dr. K had a chat with her.
@@WrathofFenrir99 bruh rapacious oligarchs are kill hundreds of Americans each day by lobbying against policies that could easily prevent their deaths. This impending covid eviction crisis should be the breaking point, and if even that's not enough to convince the majority of us that it's time to band together and raise hell, America will be getting what it deserves.
Damn, I wish I had this video before I got into my first long term relationship. All the talk about setting boundaries was amazing, and if I knew how to communicate my own boundaries during that relationship, I would have either found out that it wasn't going to work out within the first of seven years, rather than getting hurt over and over again. Keep up the good work, these are amazing
Right I hope most guys know this, you’re not entitled to a relationship with her and she’s not entitled to a friendship with you. I understand how she can be confused by things suddenly switching up but I can come off very strong if a guy just suddenly says “I like you” and I can understand why guys want to be friends first (I think most girls want to be friends first too). Both sides of this experience are valid and women should reject men gently and men should take the rejection as a gentleman
@awsambdaman In a perfect world this would be nice. Unfortunately, some women have rejected men nicely and they don't always take it nicely. I'm lucky I have only had one situation where a guy was pushy enough that I had to block his number. After that I was more cautious about not sharing my phone number and being more aware.
I don't get why he calls himself that. He's 37 (same as my sibling). He's an older millennial. He also talks like a millennial and clearly grew up with that culture. No boomers here (un)fortunately.
Doctor K: "I might call you "you guys" but I will try to use "ya all"." Proceeds to use "ya all" exactly three times and "you guys" the rest of the conversation because shit got real fast.
@@Thenewkrookkud Because semantically, it is. It has evolved to be a gender-neutral term. Before the same people who, despite all Latinos telling them to stop, keep pushing the LatinX thing, have made a decision for everyone else that "guys" is now offensive.
@@Mrfiufaufou it depends on the type of friends. Close friends yeah I agree, but having girls in the friends groups without wanting to be in a relationship can happend. But having a girl friend who calls me at 4 am because she broke up with her boyfriend yeah I'm not in it just to be friends.
Bruh, the problem I see is that there are so many men, myself included, that get abandoned from any social interaction with women. I have had experiences where women talk behind my back about how they were stalked by me even though I happened to cycle in the same direction as them, namely, the center of town. They stopped and started gossiping, audibly... Like... I just cycle the same direction and I'm already doing something wrong. How the fuck do you expect me to not feel good when a woman is being normal and nice to me? I have autism and am introverted, conversations are already difficult for me, so whenever I have a good one it is special to me.
I feel you bro. I don't have autism but to me is also difficult to talk to people and what happend to you happends to me also. When I go walk alone some women also just gossip if I'm going the same direction as them or just move to the other side of the road for no reason. The difference is I know there's not a single woman who wants to be with me so having any hope is worthless. Yeah I'm always lonely but at least I'm never delusional.
i have autism too and it’s the opposite, i get paranoid that men want to take advantage of my lack of social queues and i can never tell if i’m being naive
Other Pill how about the empathy gap is on both sides? Women don't understand the emotional wasteland men wander in and how awful it is. Men don't understand that women live with the constant fear of sexual violence and being dehumanised and treated like a symbolic entity instead of a real person and how awful that is. How about we each take a while to consider these things and try to be in the other persons shoes instead of this immature competition?
My mom had to repeat a class in medical school when she rejected her professor. He failed her for no reason. Up until that point she was at the top of her class. This was before there were ways to get this addressed by the school.
I found a way to avoid retaliation sometimes when telling someone I'm not interested is to give their ego a way out, so telling them something like "Hey, I just wanted to let you know something. I am getting vibes from you that you might be romantically into me, and tbh I'm not interested in that kind of relationship, but I'm thinking it might also be just your way of being friendly, so I just wanted to clarify this with you" and so it gives them the opportunity to say "yeah that's just me being friendly" and then stop talking to me
I personally hate the "I'm not interested in that kind of relationship". That is almost always a lie. Even if you're not actively looking, you aren't going to reject the man of your dreams. If you are "not interested in that kind of relationship" that implies that the problem is with you: you aren't ready for a relationship - but once you are, the guy is still in the game. What you actually mean and should say is "I am not attracted to you at all". The phrasing is arguable, though I personally think it's better to be harsh. Better for the guy to get offended and storm off, than to hang around never giving up.
@@someguycalledcerberus9805 dont think its a womans responsibility to give a guy what he expects from her....i do know where u are coming from and that a harsh rejection will kill all hope in him, but it leaves the woman up for criticism too and she is human like a man is...so i dont think its fair to hold her accountable for a mans hurt feelings...he should hold himself accountable... while its pretty nice if a woman is rude to him if needed...its not something one can expect.
Yo Dr. K you have easily become one of my top YT content creators. I have genuinely enjoyed each video of yours I've seen and I truly believe you're doing a great service for the industry. Looking forward to more of these discussions.
Found some gold at 2:06:43 "If someone is blocking you on a platform, don't assume that to be a mistake. So if someone is trying to set a boundary, respect that boundary. Also recognize that if someone sets a boundary with you and you feel hurt, you feeling hurt does not entitle you to anything from the other person." Extrapolating: If others don't want you around their private social circle, and you claim that they are in the wrong... If others tell you not to cross a line, and you persist past that line... If because of the boundary, you feel hurt or wronged or victimized... and because of your feeling that way, you believe that you are entitled to something from others... Consider how closely your thoughts, actions, demands, and claims align with a creep trying to invade another's life. Clarification: Lets reduce the amount of unnecessary suffering in the lives of those around us. Adding more to the avoidable suffering may be your current heading.
Too many guys have tried to hit on my girlfriend because how humble and nice she is to anyone, taking me as the bad guy who mistreats her. If only they knew anything.. The white Knight savior of Princesses in distress is way too common, she ended up telling me that the "I'm not like the other guys" while trying to save her from a made up danger is way too stressful to her, that it is like the default response from any guy who meets a nice girl.
2 things I noticed on the friend zone subject that just made me think about how clueless girls are about male friends "he just moved to my city were such good friends" nah hes 100% playing the long game, literally no one would do that for someone who rejected them and is now just a friend. "i confessed to him and he had no idea it was gonna happen" yet you still ended up in a relationship so clearly he still liked you as more than a friend
@@AFlyingBird702 they know but its good to have someone acting like a puppy on your side so they pretend to themselves not know what IS happening the two are at fault but the Guy has the excuse of love
This is infuriating, we have to get to a point in society where it's not only the males responsibility to court women, I've had women tell me they've liked me for long stretches of time and were " waiting " on my approach, why is it OUR job to sustain all the damage. If women would court men more we would have less problems like this.
A lot of women are pressured to conform to standards like not asking a guy out, just like men are pressured to take the lead and ask. I would argue it shouldn't be that either gender should have to take the lead on asking a person out, both should feel comfortable taking that step.
What is the purpose of make up? Women are expected to put additional effort into their looks. Men are "supposed" to be straightforward/bold, women are "supposed" to be fragile/mysterious. You are asking for too much
@@DimaRakesah most men don't have the problem of feeling uncomfortable about being approached. If we lived in a world where it was typical for women to approach men you wouldn't have this issue.... I fail to see how your rationale makes sense.
@@juno1597 Even if men say they wouldn't mind women approaching them, that doesn't mean women have been conditioned to do so. We're told not to be too forward or pushy, approaching a guy can be seen as desperate, too forward, and potentially be seen as the behavior of "loose" women. That's not to say I agree. I have often made the first move myself, heck I asked my now husband out on a date first, but as someone who has seen this conditioning first hand I don't expect all women to be like me.
I also would love if women approached men as frequently as men approached women. But that simply isn't gonna happen because of game theory. Women are more selective with their partners then men are. Mathematically, it's just more advantageous for women to let men come to them first.
One of my pet peeves is when someone excuses someone's behavior by saying, "Oh that's just the way he is." That actually gives that person permission to be a jerk!
Most things stayed the same. Intensity varied thanks to woman's rights movement, but also due to other economic, cultural and political changes, good or bad. When I talk to my family, women from 16-84 have/had basically the same problems even when some laws and norms changed. What got better in my experience is that we talk about it and be there for each other. And sometimes this even happens with men. So not all hope lost certainly :)
@@potatotiel So? Chatrooms, ICQ, MSN, AOL, Yahoo Games, WoW, MySpace, plain old Usenet email groups all existed decades before. And of course internet dating. And discussion forums. Online behavior has changed and this is a perfectly valid and useful point to inquire about. Also, in many cases we can't totally unambiguously distinguish between "being hit on" and "being messaged" or "having a conversation with". So let's not reduce this to a strawman.
I think observing from my peers, a lot of times girls need to be mean for guys to back off, and when a girl isn't mean they take that as a rare kind like a shiny pokemon and that they have to get them. They should really get to know people better than to jump on that safeness they get from a welcoming person.
If you're a woman and you're not hideous, chances are you're drowning in so much unwanted attention that kindness isn't a rare thing to encounter (whether it's genuine or faked in attempt to get in your pants.) That's a unique form of loneliness, for sure. Men dont know what THAT feels like. The average man gets closer to zero attention/interest from the opposite sex and is so lonely and starved for attention that even the smallest forms of kindness, (the kind that would literally mean nothing to you,) would make a man start to fantasize about spending the rest of our lives with that woman. THATS a unique form of loneliness. Women don't care or feel bad if the average man is invisible to 99% of women. Men don't care or feel bad if 99% of men want to sleep with you and thats the attention you're getting, (even if most of the attention woman are getting is superficial, unsatifying or unfilling Probably because some people think negative attention is better than none, (and maybe that's why the men in their stories react to rejection out of anger?) It's a problem. I don't know what we do about it but hopefully I've pinpointed the empathetic gap in the dynamics. Realizing it helped me make sense of it and take rejections less personally
Self care first. It’s like if you want a pet, but don’t have any money or food. Relationships take work and if you’re not bettering yourself, then your relationship might be hard on you
Regarding the "no real incels on stream", I remember interviews with Neonazis that were very similar. For some of them, when you create a safe environment, so they actually think and talk about their behavior, their believes start to shake. They somehow got into these communities because they felt understood by them and they just ride that emotional high.
It's something he points out in a video about conversation. If you argue with someone, they dig their heels in. If you listen to someone, repeat back what they say to them, or ask them to go into detail when they're confused they don't dig their heels in and are pretty open to changing their mind.
If you're a woman and you're not hideous, chances are you're drowning in so much unwanted attention that kindness isn't a rare thing to encounter (whether it's genuine or faked in attempt to get in your pants.) That's a unique form of loneliness, for sure. Men dont know what THAT feels like. The average man gets closer to zero attention/interest from the opposite sex and is so lonely and starved for attention that even the smallest forms of kindness, (the kind that would literally mean nothing to you,) would make a man start to fantasize about spending the rest of our lives with that woman. THATS a unique form of loneliness. Women don't care or feel bad if the average man is invisible to 99% of women. Men don't care or feel bad if 99% of men want to sleep with you and thats the attention you're getting, (even if most of the attention woman are getting is superficial, unsatifying or unfilling Probably because some people think negative attention is better than none, (and maybe that's why the men in their stories react to rejection out of anger?) It's a problem. I don't know what we do about it but hopefully I've pinpointed the empathetic gap in the dynamics.
this is very well felt and explained. Like I've been feeling incredibly lonely and yet I know I wouldn't get much genuine sympathy nor understanding about it.. which in turn adds to the loneliness. Depressing
Personally I have a theory that we do know which is "worse". Not trying to even get into that argument bc there's no winning on either side, both genders have unique struggles but here is what I will say: Think of what the men who feel this way have been getting up to, especially the youth, they go online and they troll the world, they have outbursts of violence, anger, bitterness etc etc, I seriously feel like these men have decided it is better to have negative attention and be that "problem" rather than be invisible. They find it better to be seen and hated than completely alone. And tbh I feel like I agree, I'm in a better place in life now but I definitely remember the feelings and can think of behaviors I engaged in just to feel seen, from something as small as griefing in fucking Minecraft lmao to full on bullying etc etc, thank god I never went as far as to do anything illegal or even harrass women or something insane like that but I feel like I have never heard anyone talk about this. Women sometimes live in a world of an abundance of fake attention and men with none, but there exists a group of men who felt the "nothing" and decided negative attention is better than complete invisability and isolation.
As guy i am putting how i feel. my generation is brought up in less social environment, but still societal expectations linger. And it's human need to feel belonged and safe. For women it might be physical safety and for men it's emotional safety. And burden of finding someone always fall on man, and he desperately tries to impress any girl that listens to him. And women (based on conversations i had with friends) never approached a guy directly, but always had experiences of guys approaching them. But often times get overwhelmed. And digging a bit deeper they want to be emotionally invested in them. Like i had discussion with my female friend. I said to her, there was this girl I liked and i asked her directly 'are you single? She said no. And i replied' have a nice day' And my friend got surprised and said 'that's not how you ask someone out by being that direct. If i was in her place and was single , still i would have said no i am not single. Its important to take time. And my argument was ' but if I wouldn't have asked her whether or not she is single, i would have went on a date or two , only to have given my time and feeling for someone i thought could be a potential relationship' So i think there is kinda paradox, We, men want something straightforward and direct, but girls want some kinda assurity. IDK. I said what I felt. Anyone feel free to comment.
Your comment is good but I disagree with the second phrase. Young people are raised far, far, far more social than how I was raised. Back in the day you could only talk to people physically or by phone or letter, and you had to have a previously estabilished relationship with them to talk to them non-physically. Now people can have so much contact with anyone around the globe, giving you exposure to so many perspectives that it would take an actual effort to be ignorant. Also, expectations have indeed remained the same but they were never unreasonable: people have always expected you to be benign, respectful of boundaries and inoffensive towards them. If you got all Niceguy on a woman back in the day, she would hate you for it just as much as woman would nowadays. If being benign, respectful of boundaries and inoffensive is a tall order for men nowadays, it's a them problem.
@@raghavnamasivayam5098 not in my experience. The deepest conversations I've ever had in my life have been on 4chan, of all places. Interactions are far richer when there's nothing to be judged other than words and ideas.
@@phosspatharios9680 well true but having face to face conversations are essential rather than being online well humans fundamentally connect better face to face than online conversations
As someone with virtually no romantic experience I find it incredibly strange to begin a relationship with someone under the pretense of “I’m interested in you romantically”. And by begin I just mean early on in a relationship, not necessarily at the very start. I don’t just feel romantically interested in people like that. To be honest I don’t know that I’ve ever felt romantically attracted to someone. It seems to make more sense to have a well established relationship before making anything romantic. But I get the impression that at that point women see little to no potential possibility of a romantic relationship, only a platonic one. Do I understand this wrongly? I’m genuinely interested in this, because I’ve essentially settle on the value of: if no one wants to establish a romantic relationship this way then I am not meant to have a romantic relationship. And that’s fine, I’ve accepted that if this is the case that I can’t change that.
It's not abnormal to not tend to feel romantic interest in people until you've gotten to know them better. It gets referred to as a "sexuality" (demisexual) but it seems like such a nonsense term to me. Maybe that's just because I can't understand how anyone can feel like they want to have a relationship with someone without having spoken to them. To me that's just physical attraction and I don't think physical attraction alone indicates any real kind of compatibility. I think the important thing in all cases is to not lead people on. If you start from a place of friendship and begin having feelings for someone... communicate it. Don't let it fester. You can't be lead on by someone who's oblivious and if you don't communicate that your feelings have shifted from platonic to romantic, you're essentially leading the other person on to believing it's still a purely platonic relationship. Just because you've fallen in love doesn't mean the other person feels the same. If they don't reciprocate your feelings, you or they are perfectly entitled to move on from that relationship. Nobody is entitled to a relationship with someone that that person doesn't want to have.
@Unironik I think I just reject that notion. Maybe for most people they do chose what their goal is early in a relationship, I honestly can't know that. But that seems a bit black and white. And the friend zone seems to be something mostly conjured by lack of communication.
If someone is seeking a romantic relationship or even a plutonic one then what’s wrong with just getting to the point? So long as you don’t force yourself on them or attempt to blackmail them then there shouldn’t be an issue with not wasting your time
@@Lapis_Pylosiphorum Who said there was something wrong with that? I just find it strange because I don't really have romantic attraction to someone until I've already known them, generally as friends. Its weird to me to start a relationship as romantic because I just don't really feel that until I already know someone. But obviously I'm in the minority of how people approach relationships.
@@jordanb7304 this sounds like the textbook experience of demiromantic people. Not demisexual but demiromantic. But at the same time normative romantic stuff often involves a mix of initial sexual attraction, general desire for a certain kind of future with someone someday, and then intention to explore through dating if the romantic connection is there or not. Or another normative experience is to have a friendship and sexual attraction and then you start to feel like your emotional feelings for this friend have shifted into being in love or at least wanting to date, and then you try to add romance to the friendship later on.
The ability to handle rejection might be the single biggest factor in dating success. Not only can it reveal a person’s emotional health, but it literally increases a guy’s chances because he’ll try more often and not waste time on someone who has either already rejected him or someone he’s too afraid to ask out. Edit: To add to this, the ability to handle rejection well also reflects how well you will handle certain times in your relationship. There will be times when your partner has their own worries, or is upset with you about something or is just feeling physically uncomfortable. Are you going to be an egotistical baby and make it about you, or can you consider her feelings in these times? Someone who can’t handle rejection will fail in these moments.
Very good take and makes a lot of sense. There’s no guarantee that once you finally get a partner that you will be successful moving forward in the relationship. I think this is also tied to a more overarching issue of developing better emotional intelligence, not just to understanding how your partner feels but also how you feel and how it may affect your mood or decision making.
It's dishonest to imply this is about emotional maturity as it might apply to everyone when the burden of initiating and dealing with rejection mostly falls on men. Gender neutral language doesn't change this.
@@rdor011 I used the word "person" one time but used male pronouns for the rest of my statement. The ability to handle rejection is universal to both genders, however, even if the cultural expectation is to place the burden on men. If and when a women feels rejected, the actions she takes in response to the feeling of rejections absolutely reflects on her emotional maturity. If a women proceeds to stalk you after you show disinterest rejection, she is behaving immaturely, if she accepts it and moves on, she is behaving maturely. Also, women do initiate, they just don't do it with every man, just like every man doesn't initiate with every woman. They are simply less overt about their advances so they usually go unnoticed by uninvolved observers. Men who have never experienced being initiated upon by women get the impression that women never initiate, but it's more likely a reflection of the man's own limited experience.
@@bigheadrhino my point was that women women typically do not handle rejection well precisely because they haven't needed build up this emotional resilience. We don't 'see' these badly behaving women all that often because this situation is far less frequent. Also the argument for indirect interest is kinda ridiculous - dropping easily deniable hints doesn't involve the same courage or risk to one's ego, and in those situations the man still has to take the lead (and get rejected if he fails to do it the right way)
I feel like there is a huge problem here. They sometimes say things like "Just do that, just do this"... and Im like "Its not that easy" So around min 13:30 one of them said something along the lines of "You should talk to them about this and make sure you are not getting the wrong hints" But now imagine it's a long time friendship and you suddenly ask "Idk, I feel like I'm getting these hints and want to make sure I'm not just an idiot" and then you actually got the wrong hints there... where is that friendship gonna go? Like, if you bring that up no matter if a girl to a guy or a guy to a girl... they will always think at the end of that "Is he/she into me? Can this still be a normal friendship?" it just becomes so damn awkward and that's just because nobody straight up wants to admit their feelings... If they did we would have the same scenario of a possible rejection and the friendship will become awkward/might end. Communication in that case is never gonna help it always is like an all or nothing scenario kind of thing.
@@cringestealer that's a risk you need to really think if you're willing to take. I've had it both not work and work for me with different people but that's because every time I was with those people I found it really hard to keep my feelings for them down. I also don't think that if you're honest and then get rejected that necessarily ruins that friendship, truly strong friendships can still get through something like that. They'll never be the same but they don't necessarily go away, and all you can do is hope that the other person is as willing as you to continue that friendship after a rejection.
There is this expectation towards men, where they are supposed to play with open cards at all times and at the same time be ok with how their surroundings react to that.
This! The conversation is always so onesided and pigeon holed into things having to be a certain way. D.K's none egalitarian comment at the end speaks volumes.
That's how it is, i learned to survive like that, and actually being vulnerable and hurt doesn't even bother me anymore, either you get used to it or you don't, that's how it is but it shouldn't be like that
I wish he called them out on their bullshit more....in his way tho. I love how he caught them with their hand in the cookie jar a few times, without them even realizing it before it was too late.
they are not supposed to play with open cards at all times, but they are supposed to take responsibility for their actions and if they are not able to do so its better u play with open cards than thinking that they were lead on or something... most men dont wanna accept the truth and rather dwell in their fantasy of hope of getting something out of a relationship... a guy can play with a pokerface and not reveal anything at all, but he should be able to deal with the consequences.
You can't have clear boundaries with closed cards my friend. I don't always want to be open myself, but it's important in those moments to say how you really feel so that miscommunication doesn't happen. Good luck x
I hate that as someone with attachment issues, I had to learn a lot of what boundaries are the hard way. Trial and terror. I feel for everyone who has to go through this, I wish that this can be something that is talked about more openly in future generations.
"We need to have conversations!" one moment later "We ignore messages if we don't like you" also moments later "You have to be respectful to us" . This conversation left me more confused than before, luckily for me i don't play the long run so women in my life are either in or out, i just need one female friend not an army, but i respect other people views on life, it's just mine is different. I think it would help the argument if there was actually a real discussion between men and women in the same chat so everybody can understand both points of view. Edit : I would like to clarify that i do not play friend to get the juice, i'm quite clear from the get go what my intentions are.
Are you dumb or something? It's pretty obvious that the people you need to have conversations with or the people that you respect is not the same that you ignore. The first one is for the people you care about and the second is for the people you don't care or don't have time to. It's the same for every normal person.
Easiest way to not be in the friend zone : if you meet them and you find them romantically interesting, ask them if they're single and if yes, ask them out. Either it's yes and that's great or it's not and then you can be friends, or not. Either way, you're never "put into" the friend zone.
It would be nice if you had conversations with non-streamer women that didn't revolve around their relationships with men or sexism on the internet. I wish you would include them in conversations about general mental health.
@@Flytee83 for what it's worth, we approached HG about having this conversation on stream! We had this convo on the women's discord and thought it could be helpful to continue the discussion in public. It's not as though he only let us on to talk about relationships. I'm also hopeful he'll include women when talking about other topics (:
@@sagemerson Totally valid- don't get me wrong I think this is an important conversation to have, so thank you! I'm just pointing out that some inclusion in non-relationship/ male-centred topics would be nice. (Also there's a woman's only server? Good to know!)
@@WatchThatKilcam15 Yep. They address smaller but real problems. There's nothing wrong with what they're saying, I don't get why people get offended by women sharing stories.
I think there should be a dialogue between the male/female perspectives, maybe a more diverse cast the next time. I think, the reason all of this is a problem in the first place is gender segregation and the inability to come to terms with how each gender is taught to operate within society, there is seemingly an understanding of what, but not why. The reason a lot of guys in the comment section here are seemingly frustrated is because they feel their perspective is not represented, only half of the story is told, with the addition of Dr. K "straw/steelmanning" the male experience. It most definitely generates some cognitive dissonance in guys who feel differently, as you can see in the comments.
I can see that yeah. A lot of people here are as you said, frustrated or don't feel listened too in some way. A dialogue of both guys and girls would be a great idea
I do appreciate hearing the full female perspective and there is always time in the future for a co-ed panel. I think it helps show the impact when all the girls can agree that they have been in similar situations to each other.
It's funny though, don't you think? That the internet is FULL of all this allegedly "not heard" males who post their sometimes really hateful theories about women everywhere. You have 4can, 9gag, UA-cam, in huge parts Reddit, incel forum, red pill communities, etc.... All talking endlessly about how men are not being heard, how women are evil and control everything and feel sooo important. Doesn't that seem strange to you?
@@atro9653 I don't understand what your point here is. On one hand you say it's alleged, that the internet is full of unheard, frustrated men and on the other hand you characterize them all to be misogynists. Are you saying, that you think they should be ignored, because they're all inherently hateful? The internet is full of unheard frustrated men, radicalized misogynists and men who fit both categories. There are also plenty of unheard, frustrated women. There is no doubt about that. My only objective in writing my comment was pointing it out and rationalizing what may make them feel that way while reacting to this panel, considering the comment section was full of those male-majority perspectives when I wrote the comment. I don't have a problem with this panel being all-female. It was just a suggestion for a future panel.
@@DestinyAwaitsChannel My point here is: try to read the internet from a woman's perspective for a change. The amount of hate aimed at us is starting to get insufferable. Men actively push women out of the discussion by spewing hateful theories in every corner of the internet. And sometimes in real life too. All because they feel not enough hot ladys want to date them. I say: grow up.
41:30 "it was his tone" when i talk about my feelings im too anxious and try to sound as normal as possible. people usually never pick up on my negative emotions even irl. tone of voice can be disguised and manipulated both to show feelings you don't have or hide feelings you have.
Yeah I think that was quite narrow minded of her, for quite a lot of people the way they cope is to be very dry about it even if they feel terrible inside. That being said, we don't know how he felt, just that he didn't express it very well if he was really this sad - which mind you, while unfortunate, is understandable. Just think that perspective should be considered.
So yeah, I just decided to tell you all about my own feelings while watching this: Im male, 19 now and I had some very bad situations in my past. Sadly I was misguided by unlucky circumstances and for a long time I thought I need to be selfish and have a great opinion on my self to be able to live in this world and communicate with others. With the time going on, I noticed the gap of social skills between me and other people my age. But instead of working on it I fell in a deep Depression and build giant walls to secure me from any bad feeling and rejection I could get if I open up. Its been almost a year without having the feeling of loving someone else. I started a therapy and now I learned a ton but I struggle to use these things in my life. Im inpatient, im feeling extremely lonely and bad and I want to start doing something right now. But I have no one to talk to, no one to meet. My problem is, being too impatient especially with girls I like. I tend to text them way too much because I have sooo much on my Mind and then they reject me (of course, I would also reject someone who gives 150% just to impress me). In the therapy I learned that im an extremely sensible person and my analytical cold side is just a barrier I build because I had bad experiences in the past. Dont get me wrong, im still stuck with the exact same problems I always had, but for the first time I know why im acting like this and what I have to change to make it better. I would love to tell my whole story to anyone who wants to hear it but its way too long and this is not the place to share all of this... I just want to say, sometimes you think you are the victim. It may be true, but most of the time youre making yourself a victim. You can only change things about yourself and your perception of the world. Stop trying to change other people or blame them for not knowing anything or something like that.... (and at last, sorry for my english. Im from germany but I tried my best :D)
Tip for men : if you can't imagine her fucking another guy and never being with you romantically without feeling bad, you shouldnt be friends with her. Keeping it going will only bring you misery, festering resentment and toxicity. Tip for women : most guys will delude themselves into thinking they can handle it but are hurting. Break off the "friendship" for them. Keeping it going knowing that is very selfish and will only end in something very toxic for both of you. Also, don't be naive; most men who approach you for your number have some romantic interest, so treat it as such and don't encourage a friendship where is likely none possible (depends on circumstances obviously but a good general rule to have IMO). Another thing : men tend to be attracted to a women immediately, whereas for women it usually develops over time, which only adds to the initial confusion of intentions in the early stages. From my experience, only emotionally mature and fairly sexually skilled and sophisticated men & women can be friends without it turning toxic. It's fairly rare. Don't delude yourself (on either side) and break it off ASAP if you have feelings and you're not comfortable (see the above tip for men to see if you're truly comfortable).
Ard Vark I think they’re speaking in general terms. All situations are unique and some things may be different your situation. Ultimate it has to be your call after weighing all the factors.
@@jordanb7304 Kk. When I think of "friends" though, I think of my old classmates or people that I would joke around with at a workplace, or people I play games with. As a straight guy, and a virgin, I still maintain friendships with women, which is why I was asking. I'm not asexual either, I just don't feel any need to push myself on anyone romantically. My thought on the matter is if my feelings for someone are requited, we'll mutually agree on a romantic relationship eventually. I don't really see why I can't be friends with women with such a mindset. Would you say that I can be friends with women when weighing my disposition towards romance as a factor?
@@ardvark3131 you still what? If a friend to you is nothing outside of that then yeah you can't be friends. To me a friend is someone I have a relatively close relationship who's company I enjoy. Typically its only platonic, but I suppose there are flirtatious friends out there, Im not sure. If you can't have a relationship with someone that is them not your significant other, and they don't want that, then you should drop it. All it does is make your life more difficult.
I get a lot from Dr K videos but the most impressive thing is his ability to listen. I can see when he wants to say something but somebody else starts talking he just lets them speak in the whole time he's taking notes so he doesn't forget his points but can still practice reflective listening.
These women are so cringey to listen to while talking about the friendzone. This is terrible advice for men. If you like someone, and she doesn't like you back. WALK AWAY, do NOT be her friend. Find someone else who appreciates you in the same way. Being friends with someone you want you back sucks. Don't waste your time with that shit, you deserve better.
It's tough out here as a man. I am 28 years old, lifelong bachelor. Been just working on myself and trying to live my best life. Best of luck to everyone in the comments.
Im 34 and and the same as you i dont even approach women im shit scared to get reported for something ive heard stories that some have been reported for rape just because the girl thaught the guy looked ugly
Best dr k meditation ever. I was the only girl on most of my college classes and some things happened that I did not enjoy, but there was not evil intent. You are doing good work. Respect.
A lot of men and women are socialized to think toxic things about the opposite sex. Many women are raised to believe that they will get their perfect knight in shining armor who's strong and confident. While many men are raised to suppress emotions, to be assertive, to be the dominant one. Both are often raised with the belief that they totally need a relationship eventually, all of this comes together to form unhealthy views of each other, and no one is particularly better than the other. It's important that we recognize these things and move passed them.
This was a very enlightening conversation about being on the receiving end of a lot of the awkward encounters our generation has to resort to because of the internet. I'd be interested to see a follow up conversation with both men and women from the community. Maybe discussing an acceptable way to approach women with romantic intention without causing any party involved to feel uncomfortable. It's sad to say from a male perspective that dating has really become a game of "forcing" encounters. Men socially are the ones required to drive the courting proccess but still bear most of the burden of making sure the other person is ok with it. Often the alternative for a single guy these days is to just not say anything and essentially not meet anyone lest you do or say something wrong and don't realize.
There are acceptable ways to approach a woman with a romantic intentional but, from my point of view, it's very difficult that you achieve it with out getting both sides uncomfortable in some way. At least the first times you try. Whether the answer is no, it's always difficult for everybody to reject someone and it doesn't matter how it is going to make both uncomfortable. Or the answer is yes, and then both are going to feel the pressure of impress the person they are going to date. But as far as I have seen this feeling fades away with time, the more experience the players have with the game the less importance they give to a single match.
@@monkeyorful Very true. The bad part is that these days it's incredibly hard not to put pressure on each individual match as it's exceedingly rare to outright meet people these days.
You're so correct here!!! Being responsible to push the experience AND also being responsible for the boundaries of the other is not only exhausting, it's impossible to perform.
@@JeffCaplan313 I dunno dude it isn't that hard to ask "hey is "blank and blank" okay?" to set boundaries early on. Kinda the fundamentals of a relationship.
I think its important to stay enforced in your boundaries and not act hypocritically. Ive had women tell md "its not appropriate to flirt with me in that way." And ill say "sure, no problem!" But then they turn around and flirt with me in that way. That kind of deflates the boundrys previously set.
Guys are more willing to talk and connect with females, at the level that they want to experience vulnerability. Unfortunately, the follow on is that guys then equate that vulnerability to love, which is also why they choose not to communicate the same way with other guys.
Brother, hear me as a friend, please drop the word female from your vocabulary. Unless you’re identifying a corpse and writing a report about it for the police, loose that formality. Girls, women, ladies, people.. whatever else will be so much more conducive to the reality of your life. Female, in this context, sounds too anatomical to me and I think it draws a difference between a concept and a person. We’re all people, male/female - boys/girls - men/women.. not ideas. Peace, love, and pubic fuzz, my friend.
tbh...i dont know if thats really the reason since most guys are not even that open with woman as they claiming to be... i barely know a guy who is like really open with them...its just that they spend time with them and share a lot of commonalities, but open like....i tell u what im actually feeling, i tell u how difficult it was growing up, i tell u about women rejecting me...i havent experienced much of it
@@p00ch58 Using the term female feels...weird. Like if you're referring to a dog or something rather than a person. Same with male. Just my thought about it. Obviously people can disagree. w.e.
I did not do anything that extreme like moving for somebody. but I convinced myself I was cool being a friend. It took me years to realize that I had so many problems and depression that had caused me to project her into the role of potential girlfriend because she was kind to me, liked my company, and we were default 'dates' for each other to do fun stuff together...(this was probably because I met her shortly after a LTR ended). I had to let her go. My feelings for her were real, no question - but as I noticed my depression becoming more and more chronic whenever she told me about a guy she dated, I realized this was not the boat I wanted to be in. I had a bit of a breakdown, tried to share with someone I trusted. It is very difficult to regulate your emotions when you are in a fragile time (and as it turned out she was in a similar situation). The funny thing was that I never told her, although I'm sure she knew...and she never shot me down because I tried my best to respect her boundaries. I couldn't have know if she would've been the great love of my life or anything like that. But I know that it took a while and some very difficult, long introspection, triggered by a depressive episode, to make me realize that it was not to be. So, I grieved and I moved on. I found out many years later that there was a lot more going on with her and we probably would not have worked out anyway. You have to think about what's going on with you before you can understand what your feelings are telling you about one particular person...and you have to understand that one conversation, one kiss, one date, even one time having sex doesn't tell you nearly enough about a person to let you decide you're right for each other.
I appreciate these women sharing their experiences. Id want to come on to share my male perspective of being mistreated and feeling frustrated from interacting with women. EDIT: I don't feel ok using the word "manipulation" as it's too strong for my experience. So I changed it to "feeling frustrated"
I think on the Twitch channel there's a google form where you can apply on to be interviewed! I filled two out myself, but id love to see what youd have to say!
As a guy who learned many of these lessons the hard way, I wish I'd had this information when I was in high school. Thank you for sharing your insights ladies. There were a lot of good points here, but the ones I've felt have been most helpful to me are clearly communicating boundaries and then respecting those boundaries, even if that means the relationship ends.
i wanted to comment to say how after listening to each of them tell their introduction, i immediately felt more connected to each person. I think it's important to notice how just giving someone a few seconds to express themselves and giving them attention while they do it really helps us feel connected to each other.
A Boys Talk about the topic would be nice, but its hard to not drift into defending even though I dont think all this was realy an attack. I think a male perspektiv on the fear of being lonly and the fear of having less value when not having a relationship would be nice, but maybe I'm projecting. Thank for the good work HG.
I'd be interested to hear that discussion, I would like to better understand males so I can have better friendships with them (I am married) I would just ask that it be kept in mind that whatever loneliness or whatnot people feel it isn't the responsibility of someone else to fix it. I think that would be a good place for both sides to understand each other better. It's easier to listen to someone saying they feel xyz when there is no emotional baggage being passed on to others.
@@piff8061 i think the truth would be more blunt than u think...i do know that many women are really thinking about the situations and stuff, while most men are very pragmatic and just think logically...attractive girl -> they want to hang around and try to hit on her at times... men usually dont get this much attention from girls so many of them accept the status quo as a "friend" and hope to be able to change the mind of the girl in the future...
@@kevinglucose4057 I see... Do you think it's the lack of attention that makes a guy hold on with just a tiny bit of hope for so long in the friendzone? I guess it is true, for me as female I have so many options my head is spinning. Trying to talk to everyone is an impossible task and ignoring some people is inevitable cause you get drowned in messages. Then the men get really pissed off cause they feel ignored on purpose or whatever. Had this happen yesterday where people either tried manipulating me to ralk to them or just give me shit for not spending enough time with them. I found many men are really indirect with what they want they tip toe around it all the time and I just wish they were blunt. Many times someone just wants like sex or something. I wish they just would say that instead of saying "hey, how are you? And then after that tell me they wanna do X X and X. Makes me not very optimistic when I see someone just say Hello cause 80% it means they want something a bit out there. But at the same time the amount if options you get as a female i feel has atleast made me more shallow... no longer is it getting to know someone even if there was an awkward start... it's like... oh its awkward first impression? They're out. Because I have plenty of other options.. It becomes such a weird and bizzare sorting system. It's really bad and then men feel alone and ignored and not wanted for obvious reason. It sucks!!
55:06 I just realized it's like that meme about how most guys are so starved for affection that the slightest complement would make them think they are in love with you.
@@blackharpy7468 I mean, she can like you....in a platonic way. Sad that that isn't enough for some guys that they react negatively. Rejection feels terrible but that doesn't mean it's okay to lash out. I remember this guy I was friends with in high school asked me out. I said, "no". He got mad and called me a b*tch. Then asked me out again months later and I told him I didn't feel the same way. Eventually, I felt bad about not feeling the same, so I agreed to date him. I still wasn't feeling it. Guilting people into dating you is just wrong. Having a bad start in any romantic context is just bound to fail and leave all parties involved feeling awful.
When I found your channel I would never thought how much your content would draw me in. First I looked at your videos and was like what the hell it's over 1 or 2 hours long. But I have learned so much about myself and people around me and I am so thankful for that. Keep up the good work you are amazing. And thank you for helping all those people. It takes a lot of effort and time and I really appreciate that. 👏👏👏
The comment section just proves the need for discussions like these... a lot of people getting defensive and upset because they identified with what the men mentioned by the girls did/do. Taking insight from other people's opinion is the first step for personal development. You don't have to agree with what they are saying, but acknowledging their experiences and thoughts can be beneficial, specially if you have trouble socializing/talking to women (could apply to both genders).
The problem is much deeper than just that though. As men we get less emotional support. Seeing dudes go crazy in the comment section doesn’t really surprise me. Like it’s wrong but you can’t expect any different without addressing the root cause of the problem. Oh and by the way telling men that are watching these type of videos that they acknowledge the other gender’s experiences that’s less stigmatized to get help or have support isn’t gonna help your point. I’m not saying it to be a dick either, I just notice men in these type of communities don’t respond too well to it.
@i'm fucking high 1. Don't come with expectations. Just because you like/do things for a woman does not mean she's obligated to give you what you want. 2. pay attention to body language. Does she seem uninterested in holding a conversation with you? Is she uncomfortable (leaning away, avoiding eye contact, think 'nervous behavior)? Excuse yourself and leave. 3. Be upfront about why you're pursuing someone but not in a creepy way. Keep in mind that this involves heeding #2. If you see a girl you think is cute and you want to chat her up, look for something on her person or that she's doing that you think is cool and strike up a conversation. 'Hey, I like your shirt. Where'd you get it from?' And continue conversation from there WHILE KEEPING #2 IN MIND. 4. Act like she's a human being. Respect her space. It'll go a long way.
On the subject of being hurt when someone is setting a boundary, I can agree that just because you're hurt by that boundary doesn't mean you're entitled to some kind of compensation or whatever, or that the boundary is wrong or unfair, but at the same time they are not entitled to a particular emotional response from you. I had an experience where someone basically wanted to disconnect from me for the foreseeable future in a way that I felt was unfair, of course at the same time he had every right to make that decision, but he at the same time disliked that it made me angry and frustrated that he was doing that. I don't think the rejecter is entitled to a particular emotional response from the rejectee, assuming that emotional response is not some form of harassment. This also wasn't anything parasocial which is a whole other bag of worms, but I feel like as long as I'm respecting his wishes, I'm allowed to be as pissed as I want to be.
Imo if people were more upfront in general about their expectations and wants we'd have a lot less friendzones and more clear cut lines. Frankly if you are a follower of a female stream you shouldn't have any expectations of reciprocation at all. It's completely unrealistic and fantastical. On the flip side, female streamers shouldn't lead them on with bait. However, if you interpret someone being polite and nice as flirtatious you need to re-evaluate human behaviour. Mfs keep thinking that just being polite is being interested. It isn't. You should say upfront "look I'm interested in you romantically, wanna go out?" And if you get shot down so be it! Accept it. You could ask why but you're again not entitled to know. You don't have the right. But maybe the other party is interested and accepts and then again you can communicate upfront about expectations. Fucking anime rules ruin shit. Misunderstandings up the wazoo await lol I'm literally seeing this shit happen in real life 😂😂😂
It sounds simple and ideally it is (i agree with you) but often people are too shy to come out and say it. It can be surprisingly hard emotionally to just be open about your feelings for fear of being judged or labeled as creepy/too forward.
honestly, I have expectations / interests about certain streamers, but just like in real life, I'm not going to ask people out, without any context. imo, there's no reason why anyone would think about going out with you, if that person doesn't even know you. that's where the straightfoward part comes in.
@@tigerfestivals5137 From what I've experienced, most people aren't even self aware or emotional intelligent enough to put their emotions and preferences into words. Knowing how to digest and express your experiences is a lot of work. Male and Female are as different as playing Tank and DPS, a lot of unrelatable experiences on both sides. If you are the type of person that has the means to access content on how to communicate more effectively and understand yourself better (Dr. K is great, therapy is great too but everyone has the ability to choose a different path for self growth) similar people will appreciate your dedication and that will lead to healthier stronger relationships. I think unfortunately some people in this comment section aren't willing to do the hard work to try to understand themselves first in order to relate to others better, so they pass judgement on the opposite gender as a whole. Better communication and relationship with oneself produces communication and relationships with others. "Natural" human instinct and inclination such as hypergamy in women and strong sexual drive in men doesn't make us bad humans, it's simply part of existence. The people willing to recognize and integrate that as part of themselves can help each other grow and imo that's what matters. TL;DR: Enjoy the process of learning what makes you tick and then realise that everyone is perfectly flawed and that is OK.
1:46:15 "Ask if something you did was OK so I don't have to start that conversation". Like, WTF? This girl is expecting for other person to pamper her by asking whether or not she's OK with the way he behaves just so she doesn't have to start difficult conversations and voice her own opinion on her own accord. What I'm hearing in this entire conversation so far has been girls putting a bunch of responsibilities on the other person without ever stopping to think about their own responsibility in a relationship.
I have so many stories as well. It's really sad, but it's just normal to have men creep on you as a woman. I've even had coworkers fantasize over me to the point where I've had to get management involved, because they won't respect boundaries or take hints. And it sucks, because one of them was a good friend of mine prior to that experience. He went through a divorce and rebounded on me hard- but it was not mutual. I couldn't believe my friend had become this wall that suddenly was completely shut off from communication. No matter what I said or did, I was his "wife."
I get your thinking but also a lot of boys just don't seem to understand the difference between flirting and friendly banter from girls/women... probably a result of not socializing enough with women (or people in general) due to sosial anxiety.
there's practically no such thing as being led on. it's only possible to be 'led on' if you are guessing about how someone feels about you because you're interested in them. if you want to know how someone feels about you then you just need to ask them in a respectful way. get over your fear of rejection or anxiety and just do it or don't complain about the friendzone or being led on.
This is the first stream from Dr. K in which I was not able to empathize with the speakers, I'm more confused about women's problems than I was before watching this. This experience was like hearing rich people who complain about people flocking to them, it may be annoying but the opposite is much much worse, that is being ignored and rejected because you're too poor. I would have much preferred to hear the opposite side: guys who are friendzoned.
I liked the stream, but I think the problem is, is that we are really only having half the conversation with only girls on the stream talking about this, I really would be interested in having some guys talk about this stuff too. I think the idea of having both a mixed guys and girls friend zone stream would be a good idea for next time
I didn't expect this to be so relatable. I feel like even commenting on videos like this could "get me in trouble." Their stories and experiences are similar to some of my own, and now I've become so reclusive. I'll probably delete this comment. That's how low my trust levels are online. It no longer feels safe.
Holy moly... I'm so naive. I had no idea to which extent this was happening to girls. As a guy, you never get exposed to these experiences, unless it's a story told by your girlfriend or someone else close to you. I had heard a few horror stories, but had no idea how common they were. This is an important discussion.
People need to realize this shit isn't uncommon, it's VERY common. I promise you every woman has at least one (usually multiple) bad experiences with men, be it harassment, assault, etc. or if they're lucky enough not to have one they almost certainly know someone who does. The shit I hear from my female friends, man, it's every one of them.
It’s perfectly possible to ask out a friend and continue to be friends even after rejection. In college I asked out one of my close friends, and she turned me down. However, I made it very clear that I valued the friendship and didn’t want to lose it, I just figured I’d shoot my shot and see if she felt the same way. Then, and this is the most important part, going forward, I didn’t make it weird. I wasn’t making comments about how good she looked, or try to always hang out with her 1 on 1. I just continued talking about all the same stuff I would talk to her about before I asked her out. She even started dating my best friend. It was fine because I didn’t make it weird. I’m not jealous, they are great for each other and I am happy that they are happy. We are still friends and this happened years ago. The issue is that so many of these guys are incapable of not making it weird.
1:25:17 great comment 1:49:50 great comment 1:50:20 "People who can't control their emotions try to control other peoples behaviour" can go both ways but great comment. 1:50:28 "is the burden of responsibility on the person who is making the other person feel uncomfortable?" great question 1:50:37 Doctors summary of what the bold girl means. I wonder how this statement will be appealed in varying circumstances. Especially when the person making that statement is a man, and his target is a woman. 1:52:10 In certain impoverished black communities if a man shows that type of behaviour it is considered love. There was a tweet where a black woman said she wants men who behave like this, if they don't that means they don't love you. Most of the men in the comment section were dragging her stupid ass for encouraging toxic behaviour to men. It is something similar that I experienced in London. Where when a woman says "no" and you persist, that means you love her. I was told this by women. When I asked my male friends they helped by telling to disregard what women said about persisting and don't pursue her anymore. The very girl I liked even told me the story of how her mum and dad became lovers. It was after her mum rejected him (multiple occasions) and he persisted (in the story, he sounded like a creep. He came to her house with flowers, this was after multiple rejections) and got her. My crush told me this story with awe in her eyes. As a society we need to speak about how women not only are creating, rewarding (re-enforcing) and encouraging this culture but are not acknowledging it, blaming men like we are evil for practising what they taught us. 2:02:10 "Paying your rent" this is a man being taken advantage off, why don't you acknowledge that?? I'm really disappointed. The woman doesn't owe him SHIT. BUT we should call what they are doing out, they are taken advantage of him. Also, why don't you have a Men's space in your discord? This will be a good place to help gap the gender misunderstanding.
For the last bit, I think he was referring to someone who is offering to pay rent when it's unprompted or unwanted. That's a different situation than being taken advantage of.
@@jbark678 I am aware of that. However, what I am saying is: if the person accepts that knowing that the man is doing this because they love them and hope that if they express their adoration through financial support that they might win their love. I've seen women take advantage of men like this. They knew damn well but they did not state the fact that not only are they aware but what they are doing won't win them their love. A lot of guys have seen or heard men be taken advantage of like that.
The paying your rent is like twitch donations, not a guy actually paying their rent irl and staying friends. In this case, they have done literally nothing to take advantage of them, they are being cucked of their own volition. Not their jobs to save people from their own stupidity.
hope you could still somehow benefit from that. I agree with you guys that it need to scratch the surface more. Hope that at one point we could have a 1:1 setting and go thru the whole thing and not reacting to a lot of experience being shared. I tried to share my perspective and my learnings. I tried to express that I am willing to learn about the things that I did not understand and caused me frustration. As a really openminded, patient, empathic, and easily feeling protective/caring individual It was hard for me to reject people and I cried hard the first time I had to reject a person. Going thru that process over and over again made me feel lonely too. I thought people liked me for being me (and the circumstance was that my environment was predominately male) and not because I was a target for girlfriend material. that loneliness transformed me into being the "I have to meet every expectation of my boyfriend-girlfriend" which crushed me ... this is when I got my own reality check: "I need to set boundaries!". I hope this makes more sense to some of you. Since you don't have to forget that these girls on stream might read every comment. I encourage you to watch this video with an open heart. we are also (healthy)gamers and we might also come from a place of loneliness or disconnection at some point too. Thank you for listening. Champ.
Thank you for writing this. The last guy I had to reject that I had known for a while was a bit toxic and tried to hurt me further as well but I dropped him, ignored him, and blocked him before he could. It started with how I wanted to hang out but he turned it into a date. Not only that, I wanted my friend to come and at the start he said no. That should’ve already been bad enough. After the now turned date without my real approval and I went along with it because I had a hard time saying no, I did tell him I didn’t want anything more because I am not in a state to deal with a relationship. I have anxiety and depression and I don’t want to be a burden. He was initially supportive, but then turned too hopeful. A couple days later I had to fully shoot him down because he didn’t understand what I had told him and he turned to guilt tripping me for rejecting him and going as far as to saying he was going yo get drunk at a party and kill himself this summer. Needless to say I told him “Goodnight” and stopped responding till a month later because he would not stop messaging me as if he’d done nothing wrong. After that “goodnight” he sent some vague messages to try and get me to reply because he knew I was an empathetic and caring type of person. I didn’t budge because I’d had experience with these types of people before. A month later of messaging me and me not replying I told him that I no longer wanted to speak to him ever again. He hit me with that classic, “damn I thought you were cool.” Line. Bonus: When I rejected him, he implied that explicitly because I rejected HIM that would mean that my future relationship was destined to be abusive. It’s just sad, but that’s why we’ve got to be there for each other and not let people like these manipulate us. It shouldn’t have to be our responsibility to control the situation, but yeah. World we live in, huh?
It’s true but this is propaganda at its finest, that’s what feminism is, Joel Ra you make a good point but that’s just one result of this outcome and it occurred cause most parents teachers and managers where trained to snuff feelings outta young individuals
All comes down to the fact that it is a broken ideology that not only has hypocritical tendency but is rooted in the worst morals that does nothing to benefit even females let alone males & little for society the economy or world as a whole
I was totally guilty of some of those things. I've already realised most of the ways I've been inappropriate with girls before watching the video, but it was still nice to get some confirmation and insight on how they might view these things.
Dr. K is always very accommodating to his guests, being concerned with making them feel good and comfortable before challenging them a bit. This time around, I think he overdid it a bit in this regard. There were a ton of moments where it would have been his role to challenge, but he was either excessively careful about it (and content with receiving no answer to his questions) or he didn't do it at all. Feels like this is the only episode where at the end, instead of reflecting on it, the guests came out even more entrenched in their original state of mind.
It would be nice, if they actually were interested in a genuine relationship. Unfortunately though, 99% of the time these guys just want to treat girls like anime body pillows and them ignore them so they can go back to their video games. Go watch a discussion with an incel. Every single time without fail, they end up referring to conventionally attractive girls as "club sluts" or some other similar term, and reveal that they don't actually want a serious relationship with these women anyway, because they think women like that could never love them, and would only take advantage of them for money. That's why incels get rejected. They don't actually feel love for the woman they desire, they feel lust, and hatred, and nothing else.
Not to sound like a doomer/incel but girls love social validation even when they have a significant other who provides them that already. Must be a some sort of personality trait or level of maturity.
@@Zombiecure13 *some* girls, yes, and some guys as well. The difference between a reasonable person and a doomer/incel is the level of generalization in their statements
I've only started watching you less than a week ago , just wanted to say your videos are extremely informative and really a good watch. keep u the good work. you now have a new fan.
You've forgot important side of this problem: sometimes one exploitate another who got in friendzone just to get attention and other benefits, knowing about this person's pain but keeping pulling and pushing to preserve benefits. Have anyone been there or seen that?
TLDW from personal experience, it feels as if men tend to have strong feelings for women who take time to listen due to nobody else every doing it. I had a similar experience with a girl who Im still friends with, but I realized I never actually liked her in that way.
kinda sad that there are so many guys that are so lonely and desperate that they will fall in love with any girl that gives them even a shred of attention.
@facelessninetytwo aka Man of the Rain Well theres a couple of reasons they are much rarer, first of all men are very heavily pressured to find a girl much more so than women, secondly women are not taught to repress their emotions and are comfortable leaning on their friends for empathy and emotional support, thirdly men's value is heavily defined by the girl they get and how attractive they are whereas women tend to value personality way more
Yea its sad. Most men today either get NO female attention or negative female attention. So they go online and donate money to a girl they find attractive and she says "omg! ty so much, I love you and you have the biggest D" Now he is getting positive female attention.
@@jeremycalhoun6783 yep it's literally the reason only fans exists
@facelessninetytwo aka Man of the Rain lonely gal here, i feel compelled to show my presence now :p
i've been indoors/hermit-lifestyle for most of my life (still in highschool, never been to public, only online), and i'm attention-starved to the nines. i'm not sure where to go or what to do with my situation, just feel kinda stuck. especially with Miss Corona forcing me to stay inside--which is a good thing ofc but shit for the mood--it feels like things will just be this way forever. Watching Dr K has been a big help, but it still seems like there's a barrier of anxiety whenever I get too emotionally close to someone which just stops me in my tracks.
Sorry for rambling to you in particular. It's just a big bottle of mental hell.
@@lupostrasz I think that anxiety is felt by everyone, it's just another layer you've gotta break through.
As a gay man who is no more than a spectator when it comes to heterosexual relationships, it's really astonishing how just broken and fucked the dynamics between the genders is. There's so many lonely depressed men, and so many women have had so many experiences with harassment that they've almost gotten used to it and it's really tragic. Also none of this is to say there's no problems in same sex relationships, there certainly are, but there seems to be such a gulf between the genders when it comes to communication and understanding how the other works and thinks and what they want.
yeah, i wish i was gay sometimes
I do also think that part of the issue is that there are a lot more hetero relationships than not. So you're limited by your pool. Hetero relationships being higher in quantity are due to also being higher in disfunction, due to mismatch of expectations, excluding gender differences. Solely on statistics.
The golden rule: communication is key. One of my fav professors said it all the time.
@@pedroassuncao2630 This. Also when you are hetero you can pretty much bet on everyone of the opposite you meet is a potential partner or can maybe see you as a potential partner. That changes everything day to day and especially in workplace environments. The same conversation two men can have could be the taken completely differently than 2 women. Men and Women cant ever be equal socially, theres too many different dynamics and positions in society to be dismantled.
It's not a gulf between genders as much as it is men treating women like inhuman objects they can insult, idealize, and use for their own pleasure and ego. Don't put this on the women for a second. The issues stem primarily from how men are conditioned.
Please do one of these with men. Or even men and women together. It's so sad how little the genders understand each other
@@sagemerson Looking forward to it!
@@sagemerson Thank you for everything! Waving back!
You mean sexes not gender
Agreed, I believe we should have both sides in order to find a common ground solution or something close to it.
Aswad Chowdhury :D
This sounds selfish, but as someone who I consider to be a morally decent man, the fact most women have had to deal with men harassing them for not reciprocating romantic feelings just makes it even harder for me to approach and open up to women. The assumption from a lot of women that me or men as a whole are going to take getting rejected in a toxic way and that even if we don't take it negatively they just "dodged a bullet" is so demotivating. I don't want anyone to be afraid of me because of my gender.
Feel u bro
I think most men are accepting the rejection in a good way but media tends to talk about the ones who don't and paints a false picture of all men are running over boundaries
me(21) and most of my male friends are ok with getting rejected and "how dare someone rejects me" is a joke material :))
rejection is not a personal attack and people have different tastes with different things going on in their lives, just gotta be bold and try again so you can find people who love you and believe me they exist
But they aren't. It's not like women are attacking a whole gender. We're attacki g the abusers and harrassers. For the forst time we're speaking up about our consent - something that has been pushed around for ages. It really isn't that hard to approach someome and play by the same rules. You can ask if something is okay. If no? Then No. If yes? Continue as normal. Nothing about the way you should approach women changed, we are just voicing how to definitely not do it.
nawmurr I think you taking what I said differently than I meant. What I was trying to say is that the prevalence of harassment that so many women have experienced has made many people on both sides, including myself, jaded and cynical when it comes to romantic relationships.
I don’t think women are attacking men as a whole and I absolutely support women speaking up about their experiences and trying to educate on what is and isn’t okay, I’m more lamenting the added baggage that widespread harassment has added to potential relationships.
@@skibadibapmbapdap I'm sorry, I think I was falsely reading some undertones and indeed took on the original post a little differently. For me personally I am not afraid of men in general. I am not afraid of the whole gender but more of the situations where I can be taken advantage of. If someone approaches me and is willing to set and respect boundaries, I am not afraid of them. I understand that with all the publicity around the topic might come off as disencouraging for you and some other people, but I believe instead it's a good moment to stop and reflect if your actions could and should be changed.
In general I (male) have the feeling in my life there is no one male that I can trust enough to speak about my problems. I think that is a major poblem and in my experience it is easier to talk with females about it because they can partly relate to emotinal problems. So i can understand why a Man would fall for a Woman that listens to him because that builds a trust that he has never had a chance to experience. And the tought process of a Man could then be: I can trust her -> She understands me -> Must be love because no man would ever put so much effort in understanding me. Which goes the complete wrong way because it is a normal interaction as a Friend not a romantic interaction... Thats how i would try to explain why men are so drawn to almost every friendly woman. All just my opinion.
I concluded to just take my problems by myself to not hurt anyone I talk to which is also not an ideal situation. Also i never had a friend come to me to tell me his problems but would be happy to talk about them if they need to be dealt with.
@Jeff B Thanks for the advice :) I will try that.
@Jeff B Thank you but i think it belongs to you
@Omega Hakim Exept I am from Germany
Yall can talk about your problems with me.
dr. k giggling and gossiping with all the girls is hilarious
he need 30 lady per stream, and somtimes a guy issue
Dr. K simping.
@@lyn8704 It was just a joke, a meme, not serious. Btw, what you're doing right now is sexist, so stfu.
@@hichaelhyers damn what did he say? He deleted his comment
@@Forward.4 my guess is some sort of flame at dr. K at his "I'm actually deeply in love with one of you right now" joke which to be fair wasnt that good and I kinda cringed but he seemed to realize that it didnt land and he took it with stride which is pretty cool for him. no harm no foul.
Important takeaway, rejection isn’t the end of the world. A girl saying no is not reflective of your value as a person.
easy just stop putting value on women in the first place.
@@hood4200 ah yes I see no future problem being caused by this
Rejection isn't reflective of you completely for sure, but @Purzenify's point is important. Always try to look to understand and improve on yourself.
Exactly! Women are a numbers game, there's a Coach Red Pill video with that title already
@Thanos Mighty only if you mean it in the strictly materialistic sense.
I agree that a co-ed conversation like this would be really illuminating.
gonna send this to my friend from alabama who just got rejected by his sister
pray for him
PepeLaugh
F
Hol up
Hell yea brother
F
41:18 I found it kinda hard to listen to her story because I think it's a good example how the sexes sometimes don't understand each other. She might be totally right, but when Dr. K asked why she's so sure that he faked it she essentially responded with "he didn't cry his eyes out like I did". I don't cry everytime I'm sad, especially if it's a very deep feeling. When I break up with someone or someone I like passes or moves away I won't cry all the time. Actually, I will mostly suffer in silence and just feel like total crap most of the day or week or longer. Does that make my suffering better? No. I might even worsen the effect by not giving into the emotion.
And I think that many more guys do that too, for a variety of reasons. So just because we're not as expressive that doesn't mean we're not feeling anything or mean something with what we say.
I'm more disturbed by the 8 year gap. She's 17 and he's 25. That's a lot.
The other thing is that even though the guy may be upset, he should never hold it over the girl's head. It's the same vice versa. If you're sad about rejection, turn to someone else instead of the person who has rejected you. It's a lot to bare on the person who has rejected you and what? They are supposed to get into a relationship with you out of pity? If they don't love you, they are going to be miserable.
There's also the fact that more recently, my friends went through something similar. The guy confessed to the girl and she rejected him by saying she liked another guy. She apparently went on and on, and this was on a voice call so she couldn't see his reaction. The boy just sat there, silent, about to cry for a couple hours. He was really hurt by it and he told her afterwards, making her feel guilty, and when my friend felt guilty, she tried to explain herself to the boy, making the boy feel worse. The thing was that the guy went on to call her fat, call her stupid, make fun of her in front of his friends by insinuating she was ugly, and just a bunch of gross things. What he did was wrong. I asked him why he did all of that because my female friend was deep in depression because of the abuse and the guy said, "revenge".
I think that for the guy to get to that point, there was a distinct lack of empathy. My friend tried to bandage an open wound and rubbed salt in it instead. Sometimes girls make mistakes. My friend thought that she was cushioning the blow by explaining herself. That was dumb. I just wish for guys to understand that, before doing anything bad to the people they are interested in.
@Rubena Alexander It seems that your friend went through a lot and I'm genuinely sorry to hear that. I hope she gets help soon.
However, this seems to be based on a different issue, so I don't think the two stores connect all that well.
Let me explain. Firstly, stories are always anecdotal. To me it sounds like the girl in the video had a bad experience and therefore thinks poorly of all men. That's wrong. Straight up.
I interpreted your story as a bad mannered or maybe even empathy lacking person. But the problem I'm referring to is rather based on communication. In the video story there might also be a lack of empathy but in that case I don't blame the guy alone. She put a lot of emphasis on how bad she felt and cried while not thinking about how other people express or suppress their emotions.
I don't know anything about you, but being rejected by a person you truly love is unbelievably painful. Many people try to change their crushe's view on the relationship, understandably. So if you know what I'm talking about, please try to understand me.
That being said, there's no excuse for bullying a girl into depression.
But neither is there a reason to turn into a bully yourself because of that.
@@thedovahkiin7896 You seem like a rational person. I think I agree with you for the most part.
So true. I also almost never cry when I'm sad. You just kinda sit there and question your humanity, because you feel like crap and know that you probably should be crying.
@@rubenaalexander5007 why the age gap? Is it hypergamy? Is an older guy more mature?
"She thought we were dating and I thought I was just showing her around town" lol same for me and my wife.
I asked her on one date, and by the 2nd I was sure I was friendzoned when I babbled about how excited I was for Skyrim coming out in the park for 2 hours since I couldn't figure out anything else to say. By then I had assumed I'd bungled it and she had no interest. I was just trying to ride out that date and maybe end up with a friend at least.
Later she told me that I could have proposed right then and she would have said yes, lol...
Omg I'm melting! This story is so adorable!
Good for you man! This is good to hear
Did she give you any positive feedback during the conversation? Because if not I can imagine in your position I would of fucked it up mistakingly thinking I already did.
Good thing your children can play the Skyrim Reremake for the XBOX 730 ONE WII in 2035 so they understand how you fell for each other
What part of the video was this in? This is really sweet lmao
Indirect ways to decline someone's advances just keeps on the infinite cycle of hope for a desperate person. Instead of saying like "I'm not really interested in this right now" say something more akin to "I am not interested in you".
But why though? I don't really read a difference. If you can understand social situations you should understand those mean no.
@@cellceair8772 Sure, if your view of social interactions is the same and you are not desperate/horny/in love enough to be hopeful enough to keep going. Being ambiguous because you don't want to feel bad for being honest results in you being ambiguous, which is sometimes the problem.
This is important, especially when you consider the male perspective of the situation. Alot of guys are, wrongfully, told to be assertive and confident even if she initially says something close to no; this is akin to the "no means keep going problem". With the best of intentions, the guy may just think her rejection is reactive and could be quick to change, taken from the advice of his peers, hence why he continues; he's not wrong, many have denied initial interest only to be won over down the line but many more have either genuinely fucked up or been wrongly labeled as creepy.
This cannot happen if she says "I am not interested in you", it's decisive, concrete and leaves no further room for discussion.
@@blazinkid5178 I agree, it's so much better to just directly say "I'm not interested in you" instead of implying it's just not the right time. Especially over text, it just leaves no room for interpretation. Most people nowadays are just so shy of confrontation that they think not saying the truth about what they feel is somehow being "nice" to a guy.
@@Torbintime It's true, people nowadays want to present themselves as 'right' rather than do the right thing.
I'll admit, to play devil's advocate, there are rare cases where being respectful and direct with a guy has gotten a girl into trouble. The guys who'd hit a woman rather than hold the L are the worst, but the people who'd sell someone a dream instead of being direct are not too far off.
And I can't lie: Dr.K has messed up on the approach to this topic; it's been a purely female-centric narrative. He's gotta get some guys on and challenge the them with the opinions outlined on this video instead of just presenting more of the same side and declaring 'men' as the problem.
These days, we're all just fucking up.
I like these conversations to gain a better perspective. What I don't like especially concerning this topic is that Men are obligated to seek out women if they want a partner in the overwhelming majority of the cases. That puts in a position where of course so many more of us are gonna go the wrong way about it strictly from a numbers standpoint. Combine that with having to muster up courage to approach a woman and put yourself in a position where you can be rejected that can affect you negatively. Mix that with the daily battles of inadecuacy we deal with that are exclusive to our gender. On top of all that and most importantly of all, men tend to be showed very little attention emotionally in society which puts us in situations where we go into these interactions with emotional problems already. All of this just sounds like you're setting us up for failure and if we do, we're forced to figure it out ourselves without support.
a lot of these problems are simply (not easily) solved by getting used to rejection (both genders); whether romantically, professionally, or just in general. People need to realize that not everything is in their control and sometimes we're just not gonna get what we want and that's ok.
@@izs6946 good luck getting women used to rejection LOL
That’s why feminism is a good idea. Despite what Sargon of cuckad would tell you feminism seeks to address a lot of these problems.
@@sausageanimations4301 There are bad people in every single group. The man hating feminists are a pretty small minority, but blow up on the internet because of their extremely offensive views. Pair that with the 'anti-sjw', 'feminazi' stuff that was really popular on youtube a few years back that showed off every single clip of a crazy radical feminist and it's easy to see why some people have negative associations with feminism.
Mainstream feminism doesn't need to change its name, it just needs to be louder about its positions and distance itself from the minority of crazies. There are groups of radicals in like that in every group. Feminism has been around for decades. It wouldn't be very smart to throw all that away and try to change their name and get everyone in support of feminism on board with a new name collectively and somehow not allow radicals to follow it.
That last part is just so relatable
I just assume no one is ever looking for a relationship so I never have this problem
Same, but its a sad world too :-D
Because people don't look for relationship, they happen. You can't force things, every bit of forcing it makes it less interesting in girls' eyes
@@stefanopaolini6117 So what you're saying is, men have to basically play women like cheap fiddles in order to get them in a relationship, e.g. by not overinvesting (forcing things), so the women won't lose interest?
@@SimbaBrank23
That's a hot take if I ever saw one. I'm curious how you read "play women like cheap fiddles" from "You can't force things".
I can peer review this. I do the same thing works like a charm.
UA-camr Contrapoints spoke about this issue in one of her videos. Being transgender, she has a perspective on online interactions both as male and female. The former being more frequently encountering radio silence and being ignored when sending messages, and the latter getting tons and tons of requests, and having to wade thru hundreds of garbage copy pasted or abusive messages. I wish Dr. K had a chat with her.
That would be dope, I think Contra also just has to offer much
Asad Parvez guillotine jeff bezos lul
With him why people use stupid language to disguize fiction with reality
Asad Parvez are you le triggered? pepesmirk
@@WrathofFenrir99 bruh rapacious oligarchs are kill hundreds of Americans each day by lobbying against policies that could easily prevent their deaths. This impending covid eviction crisis should be the breaking point, and if even that's not enough to convince the majority of us that it's time to band together and raise hell, America will be getting what it deserves.
just bottle your emotions and be hermit guys cant get rejected if you're always alone 4Head
That’s my plan
Been doing that for a few years now, it's working great.
Been doing that for 20 years straight
9 years PogU
Doing that for multiple years now....
Damn, I wish I had this video before I got into my first long term relationship. All the talk about setting boundaries was amazing, and if I knew how to communicate my own boundaries during that relationship, I would have either found out that it wasn't going to work out within the first of seven years, rather than getting hurt over and over again.
Keep up the good work, these are amazing
Welcome to gaining wisdom the hard way.
Guys just so you know it’s totally fine to stop being a girls friend after she rejects you
I have lots of female friends . I can befriend with a girl if I am not attracted to her .
it is
Right I hope most guys know this, you’re not entitled to a relationship with her and she’s not entitled to a friendship with you. I understand how she can be confused by things suddenly switching up but I can come off very strong if a guy just suddenly says “I like you” and I can understand why guys want to be friends first (I think most girls want to be friends first too). Both sides of this experience are valid and women should reject men gently and men should take the rejection as a gentleman
@awsambdaman In a perfect world this would be nice. Unfortunately, some women have rejected men nicely and they don't always take it nicely. I'm lucky I have only had one situation where a guy was pushy enough that I had to block his number. After that I was more cautious about not sharing my phone number and being more aware.
sry to hear that @@tiff921
Hes becoming less of a boomer as we go... HES EVOLVING
He’s aging... just backwards!
HE'S ASCENDING!
l e v e l u p
An old dog can learn new tricks if they are not that old and also have a Harvard education
I don't get why he calls himself that. He's 37 (same as my sibling). He's an older millennial. He also talks like a millennial and clearly grew up with that culture. No boomers here (un)fortunately.
Doctor K: "I might call you "you guys" but I will try to use "ya all"."
Proceeds to use "ya all" exactly three times and "you guys" the rest of the conversation because shit got real fast.
*y'all
@Kaeda Tiger "You guys" feels more like 'That group of people' rather than 'These males'
@@Thenewkrookkud Because semantically, it is. It has evolved to be a gender-neutral term. Before the same people who, despite all Latinos telling them to stop, keep pushing the LatinX thing, have made a decision for everyone else that "guys" is now offensive.
ahah
Girl: nono, he told me that he was fine with just being friends
chat: HE IS STALLING BOYS!!!!!!!
No guy ever is fine just being friends. Ever. Boys only make advances to get in to a relationship.
@@Mrfiufaufou thats quite an overgeneralization. Even though i would have to agree in most cases.
pepeLaugh that was me
@@Mrfiufaufou gotta agree with that .
@@Mrfiufaufou it depends on the type of friends. Close friends yeah I agree, but having girls in the friends groups without wanting to be in a relationship can happend. But having a girl friend who calls me at 4 am because she broke up with her boyfriend yeah I'm not in it just to be friends.
I get friendzoned so often that I usually just friendzone the girl knowing she's going to friendzone me anyways.
Same
Girl here. Same- I just friendzone myself by default.
lol wtf @@potatotiel
Bruh, the problem I see is that there are so many men, myself included, that get abandoned from any social interaction with women.
I have had experiences where women talk behind my back about how they were stalked by me even though I happened to cycle in the same direction as them, namely, the center of town. They stopped and started gossiping, audibly... Like... I just cycle the same direction and I'm already doing something wrong.
How the fuck do you expect me to not feel good when a woman is being normal and nice to me?
I have autism and am introverted, conversations are already difficult for me, so whenever I have a good one it is special to me.
Wow that must feel so hurtful and isolating. I hope you're okay ): if that happened to me I think I would just stay inside all day
I feel you bro. I don't have autism but to me is also difficult to talk to people and what happend to you happends to me also. When I go walk alone some women also just gossip if I'm going the same direction as them or just move to the other side of the road for no reason. The difference is I know there's not a single woman who wants to be with me so having any hope is worthless. Yeah I'm always lonely but at least I'm never delusional.
i have autism too and it’s the opposite, i get paranoid that men want to take advantage of my lack of social queues and i can never tell if i’m being naive
@@roseclouds5838 that's the f-king point. Everything is opposite for women. They can never really understand.
Other Pill how about the empathy gap is on both sides? Women don't understand the emotional wasteland men wander in and how awful it is. Men don't understand that women live with the constant fear of sexual violence and being dehumanised and treated like a symbolic entity instead of a real person and how awful that is. How about we each take a while to consider these things and try to be in the other persons shoes instead of this immature competition?
My mom had to repeat a class in medical school when she rejected her professor. He failed her for no reason. Up until that point she was at the top of her class. This was before there were ways to get this addressed by the school.
this is sickening. kudos for your mama
There were always ways to get it addressed, and the same issues exist with getting it addressed now. Politics and fear
Wow really respect your mom and hope that guy rots in hell
Proof that she really passed the class?
Evidence?
I found a way to avoid retaliation sometimes when telling someone I'm not interested is to give their ego a way out, so telling them something like "Hey, I just wanted to let you know something. I am getting vibes from you that you might be romantically into me, and tbh I'm not interested in that kind of relationship, but I'm thinking it might also be just your way of being friendly, so I just wanted to clarify this with you" and so it gives them the opportunity to say "yeah that's just me being friendly" and then stop talking to me
Damn this shit genius.
That's awesome!
Well played, its a great idea in awkward situations to give ppl options and a way to withdraw somewhat honorably.
I personally hate the "I'm not interested in that kind of relationship". That is almost always a lie. Even if you're not actively looking, you aren't going to reject the man of your dreams. If you are "not interested in that kind of relationship" that implies that the problem is with you: you aren't ready for a relationship - but once you are, the guy is still in the game.
What you actually mean and should say is "I am not attracted to you at all". The phrasing is arguable, though I personally think it's better to be harsh. Better for the guy to get offended and storm off, than to hang around never giving up.
@@someguycalledcerberus9805 dont think its a womans responsibility to give a guy what he expects from her....i do know where u are coming from and that a harsh rejection will kill all hope in him, but it leaves the woman up for criticism too and she is human like a man is...so i dont think its fair to hold her accountable for a mans hurt feelings...he should hold himself accountable...
while its pretty nice if a woman is rude to him if needed...its not something one can expect.
someone in chat said "Fedmyster" when they were talking about men breaking boundaries💀
yikers
@Blue .Barrymore fedmyster just means: "fricking big groomer".
Griffin Dale are they wrong? 👀
@Blue .Barrymore he was a twitch streamer who was exposed for essentially sexually harassing people in the house he lived with (mainly girls)
@@zackery5678 Not only that, but basically all his female friends, as well.
Amazing video. A friendly reminder: Relationships are a 2 player game. If someone doesn't want to play with you. Respect their decision.
More like respect yourself enough to sign out.
@@EvilSapphireR It can go both ways. Respecting yourself is usually hand-in-hand with respecting other people.
if someone doesn't want to play with you, then respect yourself and walk away
What sad about it, people only want to play with attractive people.
This analogy is good because singleplayer games are much better than multiplayer games, in my opinion.
Yo Dr. K you have easily become one of my top YT content creators. I have genuinely enjoyed each video of yours I've seen and I truly believe you're doing a great service for the industry. Looking forward to more of these discussions.
Found some gold at 2:06:43
"If someone is blocking you on a platform, don't assume that to be a mistake.
So if someone is trying to set a boundary, respect that boundary.
Also recognize that if someone sets a boundary with you and you feel hurt, you feeling hurt does not entitle you to anything from the other person."
Extrapolating:
If others don't want you around their private social circle, and you claim that they are in the wrong...
If others tell you not to cross a line, and you persist past that line...
If because of the boundary, you feel hurt or wronged or victimized...
and because of your feeling that way, you believe that you are entitled to something from others...
Consider how closely your thoughts, actions, demands, and claims align with a creep trying to invade another's life.
Clarification:
Lets reduce the amount of unnecessary suffering in the lives of those around us.
Adding more to the avoidable suffering may be your current heading.
Too many guys have tried to hit on my girlfriend because how humble and nice she is to anyone, taking me as the bad guy who mistreats her.
If only they knew anything.. The white Knight savior of Princesses in distress is way too common, she ended up telling me that the "I'm not like the other guys" while trying to save her from a made up danger is way too stressful to her, that it is like the default response from any guy who meets a nice girl.
2 things I noticed on the friend zone subject that just made me think about how clueless girls are about male friends
"he just moved to my city were such good friends" nah hes 100% playing the long game, literally no one would do that for someone who rejected them and is now just a friend.
"i confessed to him and he had no idea it was gonna happen" yet you still ended up in a relationship so clearly he still liked you as more than a friend
They all know it too. They want to believe he just flipped to friend. Not how it works.
@@AFlyingBird702 they know but its good to have someone acting like a puppy on your side so they pretend to themselves not know what IS happening the two are at fault but the Guy has the excuse of love
This is infuriating, we have to get to a point in society where it's not only the males responsibility to court women, I've had women tell me they've liked me for long stretches of time and were " waiting " on my approach, why is it OUR job to sustain all the damage. If women would court men more we would have less problems like this.
A lot of women are pressured to conform to standards like not asking a guy out, just like men are pressured to take the lead and ask. I would argue it shouldn't be that either gender should have to take the lead on asking a person out, both should feel comfortable taking that step.
What is the purpose of make up? Women are expected to put additional effort into their looks. Men are "supposed" to be straightforward/bold, women are "supposed" to be fragile/mysterious. You are asking for too much
@@DimaRakesah most men don't have the problem of feeling uncomfortable about being approached. If we lived in a world where it was typical for women to approach men you wouldn't have this issue.... I fail to see how your rationale makes sense.
@@juno1597 Even if men say they wouldn't mind women approaching them, that doesn't mean women have been conditioned to do so. We're told not to be too forward or pushy, approaching a guy can be seen as desperate, too forward, and potentially be seen as the behavior of "loose" women. That's not to say I agree. I have often made the first move myself, heck I asked my now husband out on a date first, but as someone who has seen this conditioning first hand I don't expect all women to be like me.
I also would love if women approached men as frequently as men approached women. But that simply isn't gonna happen because of game theory. Women are more selective with their partners then men are. Mathematically, it's just more advantageous for women to let men come to them first.
One of my pet peeves is when someone excuses someone's behavior by saying, "Oh that's just the way he is." That actually gives that person permission to be a jerk!
"he"?
That also applies to women as well. Don't forget that.
"He's okay once you get to know him." really justs means "He's an asshole, but you'll get used to it."
@@SimbaBrank23 Sorry I was thinking about a few people in particular, and they were men. Didn't mean to offend.
Great conversations ! "Love Is Not Enough" by Mark Manson is great listen on the topic of boundaries in romantic relationships.
Make a video on what to do when you step-sister gets stuck in various places in the house and keeps loudly informing you. It's driving me nuts.
Have you watched this vid friend - ua-cam.com/video/sxnJcZvuRK8/v-deo.html . It exemplifies the real struggle lol
Yea it's so annoying. Like how do you even get stuck in a drier. And why don't you refer to me by my Gamer name!!!
@@illestvillain1971 when my girl don't say my COD kd when she call my name I ain't replying
@@itsbk6192 my cod ratio is 6:9.
It's worth it.
But ofc it isn't.
Dr. K is a pervert, so I'm sure he'll enjoy that type of research.
He should do a discussion with older women and younger women, so they can discuss just how much things have changed in recent years.
I agree. At 32 I couldn’t really relate to much of what they were talking about.
Most things stayed the same. Intensity varied thanks to woman's rights movement, but also due to other economic, cultural and political changes, good or bad. When I talk to my family, women from 16-84 have/had basically the same problems even when some laws and norms changed. What got better in my experience is that we talk about it and be there for each other. And sometimes this even happens with men. So not all hope lost certainly :)
@@potatotiel So? Chatrooms, ICQ, MSN, AOL, Yahoo Games, WoW, MySpace, plain old Usenet email groups all existed decades before. And of course internet dating. And discussion forums. Online behavior has changed and this is a perfectly valid and useful point to inquire about. Also, in many cases we can't totally unambiguously distinguish between "being hit on" and "being messaged" or "having a conversation with". So let's not reduce this to a strawman.
I think observing from my peers, a lot of times girls need to be mean for guys to back off, and when a girl isn't mean they take that as a rare kind like a shiny pokemon and that they have to get them. They should really get to know people better than to jump on that safeness they get from a welcoming person.
Being mean? I get what you're saying but they do different by pulling them aside and "imprint" the truth in their brain
If you're a woman and you're not hideous, chances are you're drowning in so much unwanted attention that kindness isn't a rare thing to encounter (whether it's genuine or faked in attempt to get in your pants.) That's a unique form of loneliness, for sure. Men dont know what THAT feels like. The average man gets closer to zero attention/interest from the opposite sex and is so lonely and starved for attention that even the smallest forms of kindness, (the kind that would literally mean nothing to you,) would make a man start to fantasize about spending the rest of our lives with that woman. THATS a unique form of loneliness. Women don't care or feel bad if the average man is invisible to 99% of women. Men don't care or feel bad if 99% of men want to sleep with you and thats the attention you're getting, (even if most of the attention woman are getting is superficial, unsatifying or unfilling Probably because some people think negative attention is better than none, (and maybe that's why the men in their stories react to rejection out of anger?) It's a problem. I don't know what we do about it but hopefully I've pinpointed the empathetic gap in the dynamics. Realizing it helped me make sense of it and take rejections less personally
@@ASPEDBUSDRIVER1well said
16:38 "I'm laughing because I am uncomfortable"
What a one liner :D
Girls: Omg all these boys keep falling in love with me lol.
Guys: I haven't enjoyed a single day on this earth.
Girls:This is a nice dress!.
Boys:... Dori me, interimo adapare dori me.
Ameno, ameno, latire... latire mo,
Dori me
If you think finding a relationship will solve your problems, you are up for a rude awakening my dude.
Self care first. It’s like if you want a pet, but don’t have any money or food. Relationships take work and if you’re not bettering yourself, then your relationship might be hard on you
Watch the interview with SweetAnita or KaceyTron.
The problems are just different
Regarding the "no real incels on stream", I remember interviews with Neonazis that were very similar. For some of them, when you create a safe environment, so they actually think and talk about their behavior, their believes start to shake. They somehow got into these communities because they felt understood by them and they just ride that emotional high.
It's something he points out in a video about conversation. If you argue with someone, they dig their heels in. If you listen to someone, repeat back what they say to them, or ask them to go into detail when they're confused they don't dig their heels in and are pretty open to changing their mind.
Please have a men and women stream, I felt there were a lot of times men in chat were having different views that could be explored.
Yh because will know they fake their behaviour when they are around women 😂
@@missandry2669 As opposed to faking their faces 🤣
If you're a woman and you're not hideous, chances are you're drowning in so much unwanted attention that kindness isn't a rare thing to encounter (whether it's genuine or faked in attempt to get in your pants.) That's a unique form of loneliness, for sure. Men dont know what THAT feels like. The average man gets closer to zero attention/interest from the opposite sex and is so lonely and starved for attention that even the smallest forms of kindness, (the kind that would literally mean nothing to you,) would make a man start to fantasize about spending the rest of our lives with that woman. THATS a unique form of loneliness. Women don't care or feel bad if the average man is invisible to 99% of women. Men don't care or feel bad if 99% of men want to sleep with you and thats the attention you're getting, (even if most of the attention woman are getting is superficial, unsatifying or unfilling Probably because some people think negative attention is better than none, (and maybe that's why the men in their stories react to rejection out of anger?) It's a problem. I don't know what we do about it but hopefully I've pinpointed the empathetic gap in the dynamics.
this is very well felt and explained. Like I've been feeling incredibly lonely and yet I know I wouldn't get much genuine sympathy nor understanding about it.. which in turn adds to the loneliness. Depressing
Personally I have a theory that we do know which is "worse". Not trying to even get into that argument bc there's no winning on either side, both genders have unique struggles but here is what I will say: Think of what the men who feel this way have been getting up to, especially the youth, they go online and they troll the world, they have outbursts of violence, anger, bitterness etc etc, I seriously feel like these men have decided it is better to have negative attention and be that "problem" rather than be invisible. They find it better to be seen and hated than completely alone.
And tbh I feel like I agree, I'm in a better place in life now but I definitely remember the feelings and can think of behaviors I engaged in just to feel seen, from something as small as griefing in fucking Minecraft lmao to full on bullying etc etc, thank god I never went as far as to do anything illegal or even harrass women or something insane like that but I feel like I have never heard anyone talk about this.
Women sometimes live in a world of an abundance of fake attention and men with none, but there exists a group of men who felt the "nothing" and decided negative attention is better than complete invisability and isolation.
As guy i am putting how i feel. my generation is brought up in less social environment, but still societal expectations linger. And it's human need to feel belonged and safe. For women it might be physical safety and for men it's emotional safety.
And burden of finding someone always fall on man, and he desperately tries to impress any girl that listens to him.
And women (based on conversations i had with friends) never approached a guy directly, but always had experiences of guys approaching them. But often times get overwhelmed. And digging a bit deeper they want to be emotionally invested in them.
Like i had discussion with my female friend. I said to her, there was this girl I liked and i asked her directly 'are you single? She said no. And i replied' have a nice day'
And my friend got surprised and said 'that's not how you ask someone out by being that direct. If i was in her place and was single , still i would have said no i am not single. Its important to take time.
And my argument was ' but if I wouldn't have asked her whether or not she is single, i would have went on a date or two , only to have given my time and feeling for someone i thought could be a potential relationship'
So i think there is kinda paradox,
We, men want something straightforward and direct, but girls want some kinda assurity.
IDK. I said what I felt.
Anyone feel free to comment.
Your comment is good but I disagree with the second phrase.
Young people are raised far, far, far more social than how I was raised. Back in the day you could only talk to people physically or by phone or letter, and you had to have a previously estabilished relationship with them to talk to them non-physically. Now people can have so much contact with anyone around the globe, giving you exposure to so many perspectives that it would take an actual effort to be ignorant.
Also, expectations have indeed remained the same but they were never unreasonable: people have always expected you to be benign, respectful of boundaries and inoffensive towards them. If you got all Niceguy on a woman back in the day, she would hate you for it just as much as woman would nowadays. If being benign, respectful of boundaries and inoffensive is a tall order for men nowadays, it's a them problem.
@@phosspatharios9680 social media isnt real life interactions well it's not authentic
@@raghavnamasivayam5098 not in my experience. The deepest conversations I've ever had in my life have been on 4chan, of all places. Interactions are far richer when there's nothing to be judged other than words and ideas.
@@phosspatharios9680 well true but having face to face conversations are essential rather than being online
well humans fundamentally connect better face to face than online conversations
As someone with virtually no romantic experience I find it incredibly strange to begin a relationship with someone under the pretense of “I’m interested in you romantically”. And by begin I just mean early on in a relationship, not necessarily at the very start. I don’t just feel romantically interested in people like that. To be honest I don’t know that I’ve ever felt romantically attracted to someone. It seems to make more sense to have a well established relationship before making anything romantic. But I get the impression that at that point women see little to no potential possibility of a romantic relationship, only a platonic one. Do I understand this wrongly?
I’m genuinely interested in this, because I’ve essentially settle on the value of: if no one wants to establish a romantic relationship this way then I am not meant to have a romantic relationship. And that’s fine, I’ve accepted that if this is the case that I can’t change that.
It's not abnormal to not tend to feel romantic interest in people until you've gotten to know them better. It gets referred to as a "sexuality" (demisexual) but it seems like such a nonsense term to me. Maybe that's just because I can't understand how anyone can feel like they want to have a relationship with someone without having spoken to them. To me that's just physical attraction and I don't think physical attraction alone indicates any real kind of compatibility.
I think the important thing in all cases is to not lead people on. If you start from a place of friendship and begin having feelings for someone... communicate it. Don't let it fester. You can't be lead on by someone who's oblivious and if you don't communicate that your feelings have shifted from platonic to romantic, you're essentially leading the other person on to believing it's still a purely platonic relationship. Just because you've fallen in love doesn't mean the other person feels the same. If they don't reciprocate your feelings, you or they are perfectly entitled to move on from that relationship. Nobody is entitled to a relationship with someone that that person doesn't want to have.
@Unironik I think I just reject that notion. Maybe for most people they do chose what their goal is early in a relationship, I honestly can't know that. But that seems a bit black and white. And the friend zone seems to be something mostly conjured by lack of communication.
If someone is seeking a romantic relationship or even a plutonic one then what’s wrong with just getting to the point? So long as you don’t force yourself on them or attempt to blackmail them then there shouldn’t be an issue with not wasting your time
@@Lapis_Pylosiphorum Who said there was something wrong with that? I just find it strange because I don't really have romantic attraction to someone until I've already known them, generally as friends. Its weird to me to start a relationship as romantic because I just don't really feel that until I already know someone. But obviously I'm in the minority of how people approach relationships.
@@jordanb7304 this sounds like the textbook experience of demiromantic people. Not demisexual but demiromantic. But at the same time normative romantic stuff often involves a mix of initial sexual attraction, general desire for a certain kind of future with someone someday, and then intention to explore through dating if the romantic connection is there or not. Or another normative experience is to have a friendship and sexual attraction and then you start to feel like your emotional feelings for this friend have shifted into being in love or at least wanting to date, and then you try to add romance to the friendship later on.
The ability to handle rejection might be the single biggest factor in dating success. Not only can it reveal a person’s emotional health, but it literally increases a guy’s chances because he’ll try more often and not waste time on someone who has either already rejected him or someone he’s too afraid to ask out. Edit: To add to this, the ability to handle rejection well also reflects how well you will handle certain times in your relationship. There will be times when your partner has their own worries, or is upset with you about something or is just feeling physically uncomfortable. Are you going to be an egotistical baby and make it about you, or can you consider her feelings in these times? Someone who can’t handle rejection will fail in these moments.
Very good take and makes a lot of sense. There’s no guarantee that once you finally get a partner that you will be successful moving forward in the relationship. I think this is also tied to a more overarching issue of developing better emotional intelligence, not just to understanding how your partner feels but also how you feel and how it may affect your mood or decision making.
Nope, the single biggest factor is exposure rate which can include rejections, friendships, social circles, and interactions with strangers.
It's dishonest to imply this is about emotional maturity as it might apply to everyone when the burden of initiating and dealing with rejection mostly falls on men. Gender neutral language doesn't change this.
@@rdor011 I used the word "person" one time but used male pronouns for the rest of my statement. The ability to handle rejection is universal to both genders, however, even if the cultural expectation is to place the burden on men. If and when a women feels rejected, the actions she takes in response to the feeling of rejections absolutely reflects on her emotional maturity. If a women proceeds to stalk you after you show disinterest rejection, she is behaving immaturely, if she accepts it and moves on, she is behaving maturely. Also, women do initiate, they just don't do it with every man, just like every man doesn't initiate with every woman. They are simply less overt about their advances so they usually go unnoticed by uninvolved observers. Men who have never experienced being initiated upon by women get the impression that women never initiate, but it's more likely a reflection of the man's own limited experience.
@@bigheadrhino my point was that women women typically do not handle rejection well precisely because they haven't needed build up this emotional resilience. We don't 'see' these badly behaving women all that often because this situation is far less frequent. Also the argument for indirect interest is kinda ridiculous - dropping easily deniable hints doesn't involve the same courage or risk to one's ego, and in those situations the man still has to take the lead (and get rejected if he fails to do it the right way)
I feel like there is a huge problem here. They sometimes say things like "Just do that, just do this"... and Im like "Its not that easy"
So around min 13:30 one of them said something along the lines of "You should talk to them about this and make sure you are not getting the wrong hints"
But now imagine it's a long time friendship and you suddenly ask "Idk, I feel like I'm getting these hints and want to make sure I'm not just an idiot" and then you actually got the wrong hints there... where is that friendship gonna go?
Like, if you bring that up no matter if a girl to a guy or a guy to a girl... they will always think at the end of that "Is he/she into me? Can this still be a normal friendship?" it just becomes so damn awkward and that's just because nobody straight up wants to admit their feelings... If they did we would have the same scenario of a possible rejection and the friendship will become awkward/might end.
Communication in that case is never gonna help it always is like an all or nothing scenario kind of thing.
Thats the issue with this episode. Because the friend zone and simping works both ways. I wish I had a male perspective in this conversation.
I mean what's the alternative here stay in the dark? hope for some miracle? Stay a coward?
@@AR-dr1sb There is no solution. Its just coinflip at this point. Either guarantee staying friends or gamble your friendship for an opportunity.
@@cringestealer that's a risk you need to really think if you're willing to take. I've had it both not work and work for me with different people but that's because every time I was with those people I found it really hard to keep my feelings for them down.
I also don't think that if you're honest and then get rejected that necessarily ruins that friendship, truly strong friendships can still get through something like that. They'll never be the same but they don't necessarily go away, and all you can do is hope that the other person is as willing as you to continue that friendship after a rejection.
@@Sovspot I agree
There is this expectation towards men, where they are supposed to play with open cards at all times and at the same time be ok with how their surroundings react to that.
This! The conversation is always so onesided and pigeon holed into things having to be a certain way. D.K's none egalitarian comment at the end speaks volumes.
That's how it is, i learned to survive like that, and actually being vulnerable and hurt doesn't even bother me anymore, either you get used to it or you don't, that's how it is but it shouldn't be like that
I wish he called them out on their bullshit more....in his way tho. I love how he caught them with their hand in the cookie jar a few times, without them even realizing it before it was too late.
they are not supposed to play with open cards at all times, but they are supposed to take responsibility for their actions and if they are not able to do so its better u play with open cards than thinking that they were lead on or something...
most men dont wanna accept the truth and rather dwell in their fantasy of hope of getting something out of a relationship...
a guy can play with a pokerface and not reveal anything at all, but he should be able to deal with the consequences.
You can't have clear boundaries with closed cards my friend.
I don't always want to be open myself, but it's important in those moments to say how you really feel so that miscommunication doesn't happen.
Good luck x
I think these kinds of videos are really important, good job organizing this.
I hate that as someone with attachment issues, I had to learn a lot of what boundaries are the hard way. Trial and terror. I feel for everyone who has to go through this, I wish that this can be something that is talked about more openly in future generations.
"We need to have conversations!" one moment later "We ignore messages if we don't like you" also moments later "You have to be respectful to us" . This conversation left me more confused than before, luckily for me i don't play the long run so women in my life are either in or out, i just need one female friend not an army, but i respect other people views on life, it's just mine is different.
I think it would help the argument if there was actually a real discussion between men and women in the same chat so everybody can understand both points of view.
Edit : I would like to clarify that i do not play friend to get the juice, i'm quite clear from the get go what my intentions are.
Imagine each person being different
@@davidemura4444 I'd rather not, it would scare the hell out of me.
@@astromonkey1757 feel you so much that it hurts.
Are you dumb or something? It's pretty obvious that the people you need to have conversations with or the people that you respect is not the same that you ignore. The first one is for the people you care about and the second is for the people you don't care or don't have time to. It's the same for every normal person.
@@RoMarXxD i dont know, my parents gave me an education so if someone asks me something i replay back.
Easiest way to not be in the friend zone : if you meet them and you find them romantically interesting, ask them if they're single and if yes, ask them out. Either it's yes and that's great or it's not and then you can be friends, or not. Either way, you're never "put into" the friend zone.
This comment would single handedly cure all incels.
This sums it up pretty well. Just don't be weird or creepy about it.
I'm confused, if she says no, then r u not in the friendzone...
thats a great strategy! And if the girl rejected you only because she needs more time to get to know you, then she will likely try to text you !
@@hood4200 How? The incel issue isn't completely reducible to the friend zone problem.
It would be nice if you had conversations with non-streamer women that didn't revolve around their relationships with men or sexism on the internet. I wish you would include them in conversations about general mental health.
Starsleeps isn't a streamer, she's just a Twitter artist.
@@MadSupra354 I think you misunderstood my original comment.
@@Flytee83 for what it's worth, we approached HG about having this conversation on stream! We had this convo on the women's discord and thought it could be helpful to continue the discussion in public. It's not as though he only let us on to talk about relationships. I'm also hopeful he'll include women when talking about other topics (:
@@sagemerson Totally valid- don't get me wrong I think this is an important conversation to have, so thank you! I'm just pointing out that some inclusion in non-relationship/ male-centred topics would be nice. (Also there's a woman's only server? Good to know!)
I really liked his conversation with Kaceytron.
loved having chat on screen for this one!
watching all the sensitive men get super triggered and attack strawmen in chat is just *chefs kiss*
@@WatchThatKilcam15 Yep. They address smaller but real problems.
There's nothing wrong with what they're saying, I don't get why people get offended by women sharing stories.
I think there should be a dialogue between the male/female perspectives, maybe a more diverse cast the next time. I think, the reason all of this is a problem in the first place is gender segregation and the inability to come to terms with how each gender is taught to operate within society, there is seemingly an understanding of what, but not why.
The reason a lot of guys in the comment section here are seemingly frustrated is because they feel their perspective is not represented, only half of the story is told, with the addition of Dr. K "straw/steelmanning" the male experience. It most definitely generates some cognitive dissonance in guys who feel differently, as you can see in the comments.
I can see that yeah. A lot of people here are as you said, frustrated or don't feel listened too in some way. A dialogue of both guys and girls would be a great idea
I do appreciate hearing the full female perspective and there is always time in the future for a co-ed panel. I think it helps show the impact when all the girls can agree that they have been in similar situations to each other.
It's funny though, don't you think? That the internet is FULL of all this allegedly "not heard" males who post their sometimes really hateful theories about women everywhere. You have 4can, 9gag, UA-cam, in huge parts Reddit, incel forum, red pill communities, etc.... All talking endlessly about how men are not being heard, how women are evil and control everything and feel sooo important. Doesn't that seem strange to you?
@@atro9653 I don't understand what your point here is. On one hand you say it's alleged, that the internet is full of unheard, frustrated men and on the other hand you characterize them all to be misogynists. Are you saying, that you think they should be ignored, because they're all inherently hateful?
The internet is full of unheard frustrated men, radicalized misogynists and men who fit both categories. There are also plenty of unheard, frustrated women. There is no doubt about that.
My only objective in writing my comment was pointing it out and rationalizing what may make them feel that way while reacting to this panel, considering the comment section was full of those male-majority perspectives when I wrote the comment.
I don't have a problem with this panel being all-female. It was just a suggestion for a future panel.
@@DestinyAwaitsChannel My point here is: try to read the internet from a woman's perspective for a change. The amount of hate aimed at us is starting to get insufferable. Men actively push women out of the discussion by spewing hateful theories in every corner of the internet. And sometimes in real life too. All because they feel not enough hot ladys want to date them. I say: grow up.
41:30 "it was his tone"
when i talk about my feelings im too anxious and try to sound as normal as possible. people usually never pick up on my negative emotions even irl. tone of voice can be disguised and manipulated both to show feelings you don't have or hide feelings you have.
Yeah I think that was quite narrow minded of her, for quite a lot of people the way they cope is to be very dry about it even if they feel terrible inside. That being said, we don't know how he felt, just that he didn't express it very well if he was really this sad - which mind you, while unfortunate, is understandable. Just think that perspective should be considered.
@@JennyDarukat true
So yeah, I just decided to tell you all about my own feelings while watching this:
Im male, 19 now and I had some very bad situations in my past. Sadly I was misguided by unlucky circumstances and for a long time I thought I need to be selfish and have a great opinion on my self to be able to live in this world and communicate with others. With the time going on, I noticed the gap of social skills between me and other people my age. But instead of working on it I fell in a deep Depression and build giant walls to secure me from any bad feeling and rejection I could get if I open up.
Its been almost a year without having the feeling of loving someone else. I started a therapy and now I learned a ton but I struggle to use these things in my life. Im inpatient, im feeling extremely lonely and bad and I want to start doing something right now. But I have no one to talk to, no one to meet. My problem is, being too impatient especially with girls I like. I tend to text them way too much because I have sooo much on my Mind and then they reject me (of course, I would also reject someone who gives 150% just to impress me).
In the therapy I learned that im an extremely sensible person and my analytical cold side is just a barrier I build because I had bad experiences in the past.
Dont get me wrong, im still stuck with the exact same problems I always had, but for the first time I know why im acting like this and what I have to change to make it better.
I would love to tell my whole story to anyone who wants to hear it but its way too long and this is not the place to share all of this...
I just want to say, sometimes you think you are the victim. It may be true, but most of the time youre making yourself a victim. You can only change things about yourself and your perception of the world. Stop trying to change other people or blame them for not knowing anything or something like that....
(and at last, sorry for my english. Im from germany but I tried my best :D)
Ich hoffe dass es dir heutzutage besser geht, Alter
I know this was like a year ago but I'm so proud you put your thoughts to words!! Good luck in life!
I was pumped about this video either way, but was pleasantly surprised to see a forum of women weighing in. Nice!
I was once listening to a pick up artist. He said: "As long as she does not block you, it is not a rejection."
haha this is fucking awful dude. people need to keep in contact with one another due to work reasons sometimes.
Tip for men : if you can't imagine her fucking another guy and never being with you romantically without feeling bad, you shouldnt be friends with her. Keeping it going will only bring you misery, festering resentment and toxicity.
Tip for women : most guys will delude themselves into thinking they can handle it but are hurting. Break off the "friendship" for them. Keeping it going knowing that is very selfish and will only end in something very toxic for both of you. Also, don't be naive; most men who approach you for your number have some romantic interest, so treat it as such and don't encourage a friendship where is likely none possible (depends on circumstances obviously but a good general rule to have IMO).
Another thing : men tend to be attracted to a women immediately, whereas for women it usually develops over time, which only adds to the initial confusion of intentions in the early stages.
From my experience, only emotionally mature and fairly sexually skilled and sophisticated men & women can be friends without it turning toxic. It's fairly rare. Don't delude yourself (on either side) and break it off ASAP if you have feelings and you're not comfortable (see the above tip for men to see if you're truly comfortable).
What about old classmates of the other gender. If neither of us are very sexually savvy, can we just not be friends anymore?
Ard Vark I think they’re speaking in general terms. All situations are unique and some things may be different your situation. Ultimate it has to be your call after weighing all the factors.
@@jordanb7304 Kk. When I think of "friends" though, I think of my old classmates or people that I would joke around with at a workplace, or people I play games with. As a straight guy, and a virgin, I still maintain friendships with women, which is why I was asking. I'm not asexual either, I just don't feel any need to push myself on anyone romantically. My thought on the matter is if my feelings for someone are requited, we'll mutually agree on a romantic relationship eventually. I don't really see why I can't be friends with women with such a mindset. Would you say that I can be friends with women when weighing my disposition towards romance as a factor?
Women are attracted instantly as well. You'll know if a woman likes you within the first few minutes. If you don't know, move on.
@@ardvark3131 you still what? If a friend to you is nothing outside of that then yeah you can't be friends. To me a friend is someone I have a relatively close relationship who's company I enjoy. Typically its only platonic, but I suppose there are flirtatious friends out there, Im not sure.
If you can't have a relationship with someone that is them not your significant other, and they don't want that, then you should drop it. All it does is make your life more difficult.
I get a lot from Dr K videos but the most impressive thing is his ability to listen. I can see when he wants to say something but somebody else starts talking he just lets them speak in the whole time he's taking notes so he doesn't forget his points but can still practice reflective listening.
These women are so cringey to listen to while talking about the friendzone. This is terrible advice for men. If you like someone, and she doesn't like you back. WALK AWAY, do NOT be her friend. Find someone else who appreciates you in the same way. Being friends with someone you want you back sucks. Don't waste your time with that shit, you deserve better.
Thank you! Do not entertain women if you want more and they do not reciprocate. You just hurt yourself.
It's tough out here as a man. I am 28 years old, lifelong bachelor. Been just working on myself and trying to live my best life. Best of luck to everyone in the comments.
Keep at it bro, you'll find someone eventually 👊
@@eltyo340 Thanks. That's the only attitude moving forward ;)
@@leveleduphuman And if you don't w/e you can still be happy :)
Im 34 and and the same as you i dont even approach women im shit scared to get reported for something ive heard stories that some have been reported for rape just because the girl thaught the guy looked ugly
@@leveleduphuman just checking in man, any luck?
Best dr k meditation ever. I was the only girl on most of my college classes and some things happened that I did not enjoy, but there was not evil intent. You are doing good work. Respect.
A lot of men and women are socialized to think toxic things about the opposite sex. Many women are raised to believe that they will get their perfect knight in shining armor who's strong and confident. While many men are raised to suppress emotions, to be assertive, to be the dominant one. Both are often raised with the belief that they totally need a relationship eventually, all of this comes together to form unhealthy views of each other, and no one is particularly better than the other.
It's important that we recognize these things and move passed them.
This was a very enlightening conversation about being on the receiving end of a lot of the awkward encounters our generation has to resort to because of the internet.
I'd be interested to see a follow up conversation with both men and women from the community. Maybe discussing an acceptable way to approach women with romantic intention without causing any party involved to feel uncomfortable.
It's sad to say from a male perspective that dating has really become a game of "forcing" encounters. Men socially are the ones required to drive the courting proccess but still bear most of the burden of making sure the other person is ok with it. Often the alternative for a single guy these days is to just not say anything and essentially not meet anyone lest you do or say something wrong and don't realize.
There are acceptable ways to approach a woman with a romantic intentional but, from my point of view, it's very difficult that you achieve it with out getting both sides uncomfortable in some way. At least the first times you try.
Whether the answer is no, it's always difficult for everybody to reject someone and it doesn't matter how it is going to make both uncomfortable. Or the answer is yes, and then both are going to feel the pressure of impress the person they are going to date. But as far as I have seen this feeling fades away with time, the more experience the players have with the game the less importance they give to a single match.
@@monkeyorful Very true. The bad part is that these days it's incredibly hard not to put pressure on each individual match as it's exceedingly rare to outright meet people these days.
You're so correct here!!! Being responsible to push the experience AND also being responsible for the boundaries of the other is not only exhausting, it's impossible to perform.
@@JeffCaplan313 I dunno dude it isn't that hard to ask "hey is "blank and blank" okay?" to set boundaries early on. Kinda the fundamentals of a relationship.
I'd simp for Dr. K
Do we have the same name or is it a bug?
@@gijane2cantwaittoseeyou203 a bug, all the names look different to me
Stop using it as a verb.
It means simpleton, or someone lacking common sense.
Don't degrade yourself to that low, especially when it makes no sense.
@@illestvillain1971 calm down, it's only a joke :(
We all would, he's so precious.
I think its important to stay enforced in your boundaries and not act hypocritically. Ive had women tell md "its not appropriate to flirt with me in that way." And ill say "sure, no problem!" But then they turn around and flirt with me in that way. That kind of deflates the boundrys previously set.
Boundaries only apply to you, silly!
Hypocrisy applies to everyone lol
You yourself are responsible of setting your own boundary, why blaming others for not reading your mind?
Guys are more willing to talk and connect with females, at the level that they want to experience vulnerability. Unfortunately, the follow on is that guys then equate that vulnerability to love, which is also why they choose not to communicate the same way with other guys.
Brother, hear me as a friend, please drop the word female from your vocabulary. Unless you’re identifying a corpse and writing a report about it for the police, loose that formality. Girls, women, ladies, people.. whatever else will be so much more conducive to the reality of your life. Female, in this context, sounds too anatomical to me and I think it draws a difference between a concept and a person. We’re all people, male/female - boys/girls - men/women.. not ideas.
Peace, love, and pubic fuzz, my friend.
@@p00ch58 im describing the interaction of a heteronormative relationship. If you want to insinuate something else thats on you, not me.
tbh...i dont know if thats really the reason since most guys are not even that open with woman as they claiming to be...
i barely know a guy who is like really open with them...its just that they spend time with them and share a lot of commonalities, but open like....i tell u what im actually feeling, i tell u how difficult it was growing up, i tell u about women rejecting me...i havent experienced much of it
@@kevinglucose4057 that's because those females would dump those guys at a heartbeat and the guys knows it
@@p00ch58 Using the term female feels...weird. Like if you're referring to a dog or something rather than a person. Same with male. Just my thought about it. Obviously people can disagree. w.e.
I did not do anything that extreme like moving for somebody. but I convinced myself I was cool being a friend. It took me years to realize that I had so many problems and depression that had caused me to project her into the role of potential girlfriend because she was kind to me, liked my company, and we were default 'dates' for each other to do fun stuff together...(this was probably because I met her shortly after a LTR ended). I had to let her go. My feelings for her were real, no question - but as I noticed my depression becoming more and more chronic whenever she told me about a guy she dated, I realized this was not the boat I wanted to be in. I had a bit of a breakdown, tried to share with someone I trusted. It is very difficult to regulate your emotions when you are in a fragile time (and as it turned out she was in a similar situation). The funny thing was that I never told her, although I'm sure she knew...and she never shot me down because I tried my best to respect her boundaries.
I couldn't have know if she would've been the great love of my life or anything like that. But I know that it took a while and some very difficult, long introspection, triggered by a depressive episode, to make me realize that it was not to be. So, I grieved and I moved on. I found out many years later that there was a lot more going on with her and we probably would not have worked out anyway. You have to think about what's going on with you before you can understand what your feelings are telling you about one particular person...and you have to understand that one conversation, one kiss, one date, even one time having sex doesn't tell you nearly enough about a person to let you decide you're right for each other.
I appreciate these women sharing their experiences. Id want to come on to share my male perspective of being mistreated and feeling frustrated from interacting with women.
EDIT: I don't feel ok using the word "manipulation" as it's too strong for my experience. So I changed it to "feeling frustrated"
100%
I think on the Twitch channel there's a google form where you can apply on to be interviewed! I filled two out myself, but id love to see what youd have to say!
chromatika I appreciate the support! I just think there were gaps where I felt like shedding light on how I would feel as a guy in these scenarios
@@rosmcdoodle o yeah i understand, theres a lot of ways we could communicate but sadly opt not to
Oh please come on I really wanna hear the male perspective so bad we need more understanding of eachother!!
As a guy who learned many of these lessons the hard way, I wish I'd had this information when I was in high school. Thank you for sharing your insights ladies. There were a lot of good points here, but the ones I've felt have been most helpful to me are clearly communicating boundaries and then respecting those boundaries, even if that means the relationship ends.
i wanted to comment to say how after listening to each of them tell their introduction, i immediately felt more connected to each person. I think it's important to notice how just giving someone a few seconds to express themselves and giving them attention while they do it really helps us feel connected to each other.
A Boys Talk about the topic would be nice, but its hard to not drift into defending even though I dont think all this was realy an attack.
I think a male perspektiv on the fear of being lonly and the fear of having less value when not having a relationship would be nice, but maybe I'm projecting.
Thank for the good work HG.
I'd be interested to hear that discussion, I would like to better understand males so I can have better friendships with them (I am married) I would just ask that it be kept in mind that whatever loneliness or whatnot people feel it isn't the responsibility of someone else to fix it. I think that would be a good place for both sides to understand each other better. It's easier to listen to someone saying they feel xyz when there is no emotional baggage being passed on to others.
I really want to understand men better I really want their perspectives too it would be so nice to be able to compare male and female perspectives
if you actuall finished listening to the whole thing, the girls requested that guys be in the discussion
@@piff8061 i think the truth would be more blunt than u think...i do know that many women are really thinking about the situations and stuff, while most men are very pragmatic and just think logically...attractive girl -> they want to hang around and try to hit on her at times...
men usually dont get this much attention from girls so many of them accept the status quo as a "friend" and hope to be able to change the mind of the girl in the future...
@@kevinglucose4057 I see... Do you think it's the lack of attention that makes a guy hold on with just a tiny bit of hope for so long in the friendzone? I guess it is true, for me as female I have so many options my head is spinning. Trying to talk to everyone is an impossible task and ignoring some people is inevitable cause you get drowned in messages. Then the men get really pissed off cause they feel ignored on purpose or whatever. Had this happen yesterday where people either tried manipulating me to ralk to them or just give me shit for not spending enough time with them. I found many men are really indirect with what they want they tip toe around it all the time and I just wish they were blunt. Many times someone just wants like sex or something. I wish they just would say that instead of saying "hey, how are you? And then after that tell me they wanna do X X and X. Makes me not very optimistic when I see someone just say Hello cause 80% it means they want something a bit out there.
But at the same time the amount if options you get as a female i feel has atleast made me more shallow... no longer is it getting to know someone even if there was an awkward start... it's like... oh its awkward first impression? They're out. Because I have plenty of other options.. It becomes such a weird and bizzare sorting system. It's really bad and then men feel alone and ignored and not wanted for obvious reason. It sucks!!
55:06 I just realized it's like that meme about how most guys are so starved for affection that the slightest complement would make them think they are in love with you.
Where do you think memes come from exactly?
@@godspeedhero3671 Where do you think references or examples come from exactly?
@@godspeedhero3671 real life
@@kabukijo12 reality. Truth is, when a girl makes a guy a compliment it happens extremely rare. Therefore, she likes me if she does that
@@blackharpy7468 I mean, she can like you....in a platonic way. Sad that that isn't enough for some guys that they react negatively. Rejection feels terrible but that doesn't mean it's okay to lash out. I remember this guy I was friends with in high school asked me out. I said, "no". He got mad and called me a b*tch. Then asked me out again months later and I told him I didn't feel the same way. Eventually, I felt bad about not feeling the same, so I agreed to date him. I still wasn't feeling it. Guilting people into dating you is just wrong. Having a bad start in any romantic context is just bound to fail and leave all parties involved feeling awful.
When I found your channel I would never thought how much your content would draw me in. First I looked at your videos and was like what the hell it's over 1 or 2 hours long. But I have learned so much about myself and people around me and I am so thankful for that. Keep up the good work you are amazing. And thank you for helping all those people. It takes a lot of effort and time and I really appreciate that. 👏👏👏
The comment section just proves the need for discussions like these... a lot of people getting defensive and upset because they identified with what the men mentioned by the girls did/do. Taking insight from other people's opinion is the first step for personal development. You don't have to agree with what they are saying, but acknowledging their experiences and thoughts can be beneficial, specially if you have trouble socializing/talking to women (could apply to both genders).
@Mortarion978 maybe if you find yourself agreeing with a 50 year old predator proffesor, its not the girls that are the problem..
Mortarion978 The thing is that a professor should know not to flirt with a student anyway, the power dynamic is way off.
The problem is much deeper than just that though. As men we get less emotional support. Seeing dudes go crazy in the comment section doesn’t really surprise me. Like it’s wrong but you can’t expect any different without addressing the root cause of the problem. Oh and by the way telling men that are watching these type of videos that they acknowledge the other gender’s experiences that’s less stigmatized to get help or have support isn’t gonna help your point. I’m not saying it to be a dick either, I just notice men in these type of communities don’t respond too well to it.
Everyone validate women experience.
All male experiences are un validated or showed as mesogyne because if you don't serve woman Ur sexist
Fuck that
@@jayjaynator2911 Hi,
Sorry you feel this way. Tell us more
When Commander Shepard said "We'll bang, okay?" was the first time I was confronted with a man so brazingly stepping over boundries.
@i'm fucking high Be attractive.
@i'm fucking high 1. Don't come with expectations. Just because you like/do things for a woman does not mean she's obligated to give you what you want.
2. pay attention to body language. Does she seem uninterested in holding a conversation with you? Is she uncomfortable (leaning away, avoiding eye contact, think 'nervous behavior)? Excuse yourself and leave.
3. Be upfront about why you're pursuing someone but not in a creepy way. Keep in mind that this involves heeding #2. If you see a girl you think is cute and you want to chat her up, look for something on her person or that she's doing that you think is cool and strike up a conversation. 'Hey, I like your shirt. Where'd you get it from?' And continue conversation from there WHILE KEEPING #2 IN MIND.
4. Act like she's a human being. Respect her space. It'll go a long way.
@i'm fucking high Go for it! And just remember, don't try to internalize rejection. Think of it as an experience and learn from it.
The one from Mass Effect?
On the subject of being hurt when someone is setting a boundary, I can agree that just because you're hurt by that boundary doesn't mean you're entitled to some kind of compensation or whatever, or that the boundary is wrong or unfair, but at the same time they are not entitled to a particular emotional response from you. I had an experience where someone basically wanted to disconnect from me for the foreseeable future in a way that I felt was unfair, of course at the same time he had every right to make that decision, but he at the same time disliked that it made me angry and frustrated that he was doing that. I don't think the rejecter is entitled to a particular emotional response from the rejectee, assuming that emotional response is not some form of harassment. This also wasn't anything parasocial which is a whole other bag of worms, but I feel like as long as I'm respecting his wishes, I'm allowed to be as pissed as I want to be.
That would conclude that it is completely fine for men as well to be pissed when woman reject them
@@ashuranero5721 I think that's what they're saying lol
@@astolat2262 But that is not something most people would think
@@ashuranero5721 I mean, they can be as pissed as they like imo, as long as they don't act threatening or abusive
@@astolat2262 Agreed
Imo if people were more upfront in general about their expectations and wants we'd have a lot less friendzones and more clear cut lines. Frankly if you are a follower of a female stream you shouldn't have any expectations of reciprocation at all. It's completely unrealistic and fantastical. On the flip side, female streamers shouldn't lead them on with bait. However, if you interpret someone being polite and nice as flirtatious you need to re-evaluate human behaviour. Mfs keep thinking that just being polite is being interested. It isn't. You should say upfront "look I'm interested in you romantically, wanna go out?" And if you get shot down so be it! Accept it. You could ask why but you're again not entitled to know. You don't have the right. But maybe the other party is interested and accepts and then again you can communicate upfront about expectations. Fucking anime rules ruin shit. Misunderstandings up the wazoo await lol I'm literally seeing this shit happen in real life 😂😂😂
It sounds simple and ideally it is (i agree with you) but often people are too shy to come out and say it. It can be surprisingly hard emotionally to just be open about your feelings for fear of being judged or labeled as creepy/too forward.
@@tigerfestivals5137 and it's obviously hard emotionally to be treated like shit, by a lot of men who misinterpreted politeness, just by saying no.
honestly, I have expectations / interests about certain streamers, but just like in real life, I'm not going to ask people out, without any context. imo, there's no reason why anyone would think about going out with you, if that person doesn't even know you. that's where the straightfoward part comes in.
@@almertje i have APD, and i also would love to have subtitles/tl notes irl...
@@tigerfestivals5137 From what I've experienced, most people aren't even self aware or emotional intelligent enough to put their emotions and preferences into words. Knowing how to digest and express your experiences is a lot of work. Male and Female are as different as playing Tank and DPS, a lot of unrelatable experiences on both sides. If you are the type of person that has the means to access content on how to communicate more effectively and understand yourself better (Dr. K is great, therapy is great too but everyone has the ability to choose a different path for self growth) similar people will appreciate your dedication and that will lead to healthier stronger relationships. I think unfortunately some people in this comment section aren't willing to do the hard work to try to understand themselves first in order to relate to others better, so they pass judgement on the opposite gender as a whole. Better communication and relationship with oneself produces communication and relationships with others. "Natural" human instinct and inclination such as hypergamy in women and strong sexual drive in men doesn't make us bad humans, it's simply part of existence. The people willing to recognize and integrate that as part of themselves can help each other grow and imo that's what matters.
TL;DR:
Enjoy the process of learning what makes you tick and then realise that everyone is perfectly flawed and that is OK.
1:46:15 "Ask if something you did was OK so I don't have to start that conversation". Like, WTF? This girl is expecting for other person to pamper her by asking whether or not she's OK with the way he behaves just so she doesn't have to start difficult conversations and voice her own opinion on her own accord.
What I'm hearing in this entire conversation so far has been girls putting a bunch of responsibilities on the other person without ever stopping to think about their own responsibility in a relationship.
I have so many stories as well. It's really sad, but it's just normal to have men creep on you as a woman. I've even had coworkers fantasize over me to the point where I've had to get management involved, because they won't respect boundaries or take hints. And it sucks, because one of them was a good friend of mine prior to that experience. He went through a divorce and rebounded on me hard- but it was not mutual. I couldn't believe my friend had become this wall that suddenly was completely shut off from communication. No matter what I said or did, I was his "wife."
wonder how prevalent the friend zone would be if people didn’t lead each other on. i think people do it unconsciously a lot more than they realize
people lead themselves on, ppl think every cute girl needs to be their gf
I get your thinking but also a lot of boys just don't seem to understand the difference between flirting and friendly banter from girls/women... probably a result of not socializing enough with women (or people in general) due to sosial anxiety.
@@suppe3267 Probably due to the computerized society
there's practically no such thing as being led on. it's only possible to be 'led on' if you are guessing about how someone feels about you because you're interested in them. if you want to know how someone feels about you then you just need to ask them in a respectful way. get over your fear of rejection or anxiety and just do it or don't complain about the friendzone or being led on.
@@csadams404 there is most definitely a such thing as "being led on".
This is the first stream from Dr. K in which I was not able to empathize with the speakers, I'm more confused about women's problems than I was before watching this.
This experience was like hearing rich people who complain about people flocking to them, it may be annoying but the opposite is much much worse, that is being ignored and rejected because you're too poor. I would have much preferred to hear the opposite side: guys who are friendzoned.
Agreed. I'm actually disappointed that I took one look at who was on (only girls) and guessed correctly the contents of the conversation.
I liked the stream, but I think the problem is, is that we are really only having half the conversation with only girls on the stream talking about this, I really would be interested in having some guys talk about this stuff too. I think the idea of having both a mixed guys and girls friend zone stream would be a good idea for next time
Agreed
It's just the ying and yang. We have different advantages and different disadvantages.
You say that until you get suicide threats or this person without boundaries find where you live.
I didn't expect this to be so relatable.
I feel like even commenting on videos like this could "get me in trouble." Their stories and experiences are similar to some of my own, and now I've become so reclusive.
I'll probably delete this comment. That's how low my trust levels are online. It no longer feels safe.
Dating for men is like dying of thirst in the Sahara desert however dating for women is like dying of thirst in the pacific ocean
I like this. You made me stop and think.
Have a nice day
@@LeafyK you too 💯
You can't drink salt water... You will dehydrate even more matr
How is it like dying
@@jayjaynator2911 Exactly what he was trying to say.
“See you NT” was what i was thinking lol
The Asian girl is sharp AF. She communicates well and is straight to the point. Highly appreciated.
She has communication skills
Holy moly... I'm so naive. I had no idea to which extent this was happening to girls. As a guy, you never get exposed to these experiences, unless it's a story told by your girlfriend or someone else close to you. I had heard a few horror stories, but had no idea how common they were. This is an important discussion.
Also a guy, I was shocked when I learned what women have to put up with.
Jeff B be observant when talking to women (friends or more) and try to make sure they’re not uncomfortable
Jeff B There’s a difference between being observant and walking on eggshells.
People need to realize this shit isn't uncommon, it's VERY common. I promise you every woman has at least one (usually multiple) bad experiences with men, be it harassment, assault, etc. or if they're lucky enough not to have one they almost certainly know someone who does. The shit I hear from my female friends, man, it's every one of them.
It’s perfectly possible to ask out a friend and continue to be friends even after rejection. In college I asked out one of my close friends, and she turned me down. However, I made it very clear that I valued the friendship and didn’t want to lose it, I just figured I’d shoot my shot and see if she felt the same way. Then, and this is the most important part, going forward, I didn’t make it weird. I wasn’t making comments about how good she looked, or try to always hang out with her 1 on 1. I just continued talking about all the same stuff I would talk to her about before I asked her out. She even started dating my best friend. It was fine because I didn’t make it weird. I’m not jealous, they are great for each other and I am happy that they are happy. We are still friends and this happened years ago. The issue is that so many of these guys are incapable of not making it weird.
I mean the guys reacting to a nice apology with calling you a c**t, that's a great way to filter them out early.
I actually love getting comments like that because I know I dodged a bullet early LMAO
1:25:17 great comment
1:49:50 great comment
1:50:20 "People who can't control their emotions try to control other peoples behaviour" can go both ways but great comment.
1:50:28 "is the burden of responsibility on the person who is making the other person feel uncomfortable?" great question
1:50:37 Doctors summary of what the bold girl means. I wonder how this statement will be appealed in varying circumstances. Especially when the person making that statement is a man, and his target is a woman.
1:52:10 In certain impoverished black communities if a man shows that type of behaviour it is considered love. There was a tweet where a black woman said she wants men who behave like this, if they don't that means they don't love you. Most of the men in the comment section were dragging her stupid ass for encouraging toxic behaviour to men.
It is something similar that I experienced in London. Where when a woman says "no" and you persist, that means you love her. I was told this by women. When I asked my male friends they helped by telling to disregard what women said about persisting and don't pursue her anymore. The very girl I liked even told me the story of how her mum and dad became lovers. It was after her mum rejected him (multiple occasions) and he persisted (in the story, he sounded like a creep. He came to her house with flowers, this was after multiple rejections) and got her. My crush told me this story with awe in her eyes. As a society we need to speak about how women not only are creating, rewarding (re-enforcing) and encouraging this culture but are not acknowledging it, blaming men like we are evil for practising what they taught us.
2:02:10 "Paying your rent" this is a man being taken advantage off, why don't you acknowledge that?? I'm really disappointed. The woman doesn't owe him SHIT. BUT we should call what they are doing out, they are taken advantage of him. Also, why don't you have a Men's space in your discord? This will be a good place to help gap the gender misunderstanding.
For the last bit, I think he was referring to someone who is offering to pay rent when it's unprompted or unwanted. That's a different situation than being taken advantage of.
@@jbark678 I am aware of that. However, what I am saying is: if the person accepts that knowing that the man is doing this because they love them and hope that if they express their adoration through financial support that they might win their love.
I've seen women take advantage of men like this. They knew damn well but they did not state the fact that not only are they aware but what they are doing won't win them their love. A lot of guys have seen or heard men be taken advantage of like that.
Hey are your timestamps correct? I don't hear the quotes or "great comments" at the time stamps
@@lordfrogIII I'm refering to text comments
The paying your rent is like twitch donations, not a guy actually paying their rent irl and staying friends. In this case, they have done literally nothing to take advantage of them, they are being cucked of their own volition. Not their jobs to save people from their own stupidity.
Everyone respects your boundaries, until you enforce them, because everyone thinks they should be the exception
hope you could still somehow benefit from that. I agree with you guys that it need to scratch the surface more. Hope that at one point we could have a 1:1 setting and go thru the whole thing and not reacting to a lot of experience being shared. I tried to share my perspective and my learnings. I tried to express that I am willing to learn about the things that I did not understand and caused me frustration. As a really openminded, patient, empathic, and easily feeling protective/caring individual It was hard for me to reject people and I cried hard the first time I had to reject a person. Going thru that process over and over again made me feel lonely too. I thought people liked me for being me (and the circumstance was that my environment was predominately male) and not because I was a target for girlfriend material. that loneliness transformed me into being the "I have to meet every expectation of my boyfriend-girlfriend" which crushed me ... this is when I got my own reality check: "I need to set boundaries!".
I hope this makes more sense to some of you. Since you don't have to forget that these girls on stream might read every comment. I encourage you to watch this video with an open heart. we are also (healthy)gamers and we might also come from a place of loneliness or disconnection at some point too. Thank you for listening. Champ.
maybe because I am kinda of an avoidant type and it makes me anxious
Thank you for writing this. The last guy I had to reject that I had known for a while was a bit toxic and tried to hurt me further as well but I dropped him, ignored him, and blocked him before he could. It started with how I wanted to hang out but he turned it into a date. Not only that, I wanted my friend to come and at the start he said no. That should’ve already been bad enough. After the now turned date without my real approval and I went along with it because I had a hard time saying no, I did tell him I didn’t want anything more because I am not in a state to deal with a relationship. I have anxiety and depression and I don’t want to be a burden. He was initially supportive, but then turned too hopeful. A couple days later I had to fully shoot him down because he didn’t understand what I had told him and he turned to guilt tripping me for rejecting him and going as far as to saying he was going yo get drunk at a party and kill himself this summer. Needless to say I told him “Goodnight” and stopped responding till a month later because he would not stop messaging me as if he’d done nothing wrong. After that “goodnight” he sent some vague messages to try and get me to reply because he knew I was an empathetic and caring type of person. I didn’t budge because I’d had experience with these types of people before. A month later of messaging me and me not replying I told him that I no longer wanted to speak to him ever again. He hit me with that classic, “damn I thought you were cool.” Line.
Bonus: When I rejected him, he implied that explicitly because I rejected HIM that would mean that my future relationship was destined to be abusive.
It’s just sad, but that’s why we’ve got to be there for each other and not let people like these manipulate us. It shouldn’t have to be our responsibility to control the situation, but yeah. World we live in, huh?
This is the effect of teaching literally half the population to supress and deny their feelings.
*all
It’s true but this is propaganda at its finest, that’s what feminism is, Joel Ra you make a good point but that’s just one result of this outcome and it occurred cause most parents teachers and managers where trained to snuff feelings outta young individuals
@@Lapis_Pylosiphorum what is propaganda for what? I'm not sure I follow mate.
@Joel Ra Feminism is propaganda to women and I guess beta simp males
All comes down to the fact that it is a broken ideology that not only has hypocritical tendency but is rooted in the worst morals that does nothing to benefit even females let alone males & little for society the economy or world as a whole
I was totally guilty of some of those things. I've already realised most of the ways I've been inappropriate with girls before watching the video, but it was still nice to get some confirmation and insight on how they might view these things.
PogU reformed
as a girl ive been guilty of some of the stuff that they said men did too. glad to be in an emotionally healthy place now
Yeah I agree, if only videos like this would be shown to us at a young age so we had a better understanding
Dr. K is always very accommodating to his guests, being concerned with making them feel good and comfortable before challenging them a bit. This time around, I think he overdid it a bit in this regard. There were a ton of moments where it would have been his role to challenge, but he was either excessively careful about it (and content with receiving no answer to his questions) or he didn't do it at all.
Feels like this is the only episode where at the end, instead of reflecting on it, the guests came out even more entrenched in their original state of mind.
This is a hard listen. I’d say 5/6 ladies here were circle jerking and Linda was the only one to have an introspective stance.
Being a girl must be hard, can't even imagine people telling you they're attracted to you all the time. My life is so easy, nobody even knows I exist.
It's better to have the validation of having people being attracted to you than having the invalidation of your existence not even being noticed
It would be nice, if they actually were interested in a genuine relationship. Unfortunately though, 99% of the time these guys just want to treat girls like anime body pillows and them ignore them so they can go back to their video games. Go watch a discussion with an incel. Every single time without fail, they end up referring to conventionally attractive girls as "club sluts" or some other similar term, and reveal that they don't actually want a serious relationship with these women anyway, because they think women like that could never love them, and would only take advantage of them for money. That's why incels get rejected. They don't actually feel love for the woman they desire, they feel lust, and hatred, and nothing else.
too much and too little attention are both bad things okay we don't have to turn this into the oppression olympics
Not to sound like a doomer/incel but girls love social validation even when they have a significant other who provides them that already. Must be a some sort of personality trait or level of maturity.
@@Zombiecure13 *some* girls, yes, and some guys as well. The difference between a reasonable person and a doomer/incel is the level of generalization in their statements
I've only started watching you less than a week ago , just wanted to say your videos are extremely informative and really a good watch. keep u the good work. you now have a new fan.
You've forgot important side of this problem: sometimes one exploitate another who got in friendzone just to get attention and other benefits, knowing about this person's pain but keeping pulling and pushing to preserve benefits.
Have anyone been there or seen that?
TLDW from personal experience, it feels as if men tend to have strong feelings for women who take time to listen due to nobody else every doing it. I had a similar experience with a girl who Im still friends with, but I realized I never actually liked her in that way.
I feel this in my soul.
1000%%%%%%%