For All My Love for Jordan Peterson, This Is One of the Dangers He’s Falling Into | Jonathan Pageau
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- Опубліковано 12 вер 2024
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I’m not sure how accurate this is.
Jordan Peterson has said many times that we know nothing about psychedelics, and often quotes Jung at the same time “Be careful of unearned wisdom”. All he has said is what test participants have said which is “it was one of the most profound experiences of their life”.
He is weighing it earnestly like he does everything. I would like you be very surprised if he somehow just accepted the entire psychedelic narrative. He has also said that it is prayer that sustains him so let us continue!
have heard people who had NDE say that certain psychedelics are weak compared to what they experienced. NDE are basically Jesus tier level of experiences, the kinds of things Jesus experienced as a human.
Probably this is their first time to realize that reality is not material but symbolic & meaningful. Really is quite a break.
Just because it is a specific persons first "profound" (probably more adequately described as intense) spiritual experience, does not mean that it is the right approach to the spiritual realm, nor that it is "profound" in the grand scheme of things. These are mostly people that have never thrown a glance at the writings of the church fathers or the lifes of the saints before and are just now peeking behind the shallow curtain of modern materialism. Of course the sensation of one's worldview breaking down is definitely intense but that is not to be confused with profound knowledge, meaning becoming intimate with the spiritual.
@@user-tp7wi4lt2b Yeah, and nobody ever said that.
In Jung's autobiography, there's a chapter "confrontation with the unconscious" where he allows himself to let go. Boy, that was a page turner" Peterson also said be careful when you to explore your subconscious because your subconscious may decide to explore you.
Jung was a theosophist
What lecture did he say that phrase? I want to know more.
I think he doesn't mean that you should't, just be careful, as he used this phrase a lot: "that which you most need will be found where you least want to look"
"Pray constantly . ." For me this is rather like how, as a young mother, when my little child was sick with a high fever I would constantly lift him up within my heart, helping him with my strength -- I did it steadily, even as I was cooking and cleaning, and there were no words, unlike the Jesus prayer. Most of us do that when someone we love is in crisis. Perhaps that is what "pray constantly" means. And sometimes now Jesus brings someone to my awareness and I lift them up steadily, deep in the bedrock of my busy day.
God bless you for that beautiful insight.
@@whitestone4805 Thank you. And God bless your beautiful name.
@@mondopinion3777
If I come to mind please lift me up, however briefly.
I encourage, here and elsewhere, but my own road is pretty Rocky at times.
How desperately I need a saviour.
Thank God there is one.
@@whitestone4805 I surely will. I have been through very rough times myself. Looking back now in old age I can see how wonderfully God was with me as I muddled through each day as best I could. God bless you, White Stone.
@@mondopinion3777
I’m comforted by such kind words.
I look back sometimes at life’s trail.
I see it littered with mistakes, characterised by wrong turnings and walked by a deeply flawed character.
I truly believe I’m both loved and forgiven, but like King David… “my sins are always before me.”
Some days are smoother than others so I do what I can to feed in truth and encourage others.
And I recognise (in my own advancing years) a gentle soul when I encounter one.
You. 🙏
I met a man who tripped bad on acid, swore he saw Satan, became a Christian and joined a local church. Pretty wild!
I think that the main thing that psychedelics can contribute with is to quite literally SHOW people that there is more to existence than just material reality.. That's at least what it did for me, because i was in a nihilistic place where it wasn't so much that i didn't want to believe that there was more, it's that i was quite literally incapable of believing that there was more.. Because growing up as an atheist materialist, everything spiritual seem ridiculous to me.. Well, psychedelics helped me quite literally SEE differently, and helped begin a genuine spiritual path..
This was my experience as well. I was already theorizing and contemplating about how spiritual ideas might be valuable in a materialistic world, but mushrooms removed the barrier between myself and the world around me.
I saw the world with new eyes. There is no way to describe the experience except in spiritual terms. Then one realizes that the spiritual experience is what we experience all the time, we are simply blind to it.
It's strange because I know tons of people whom did psychedelics like DMT and actually became nihilists that everything is meaningless and illusion.
@@panteleimonthehealer963 It's a necessary step for those who perhaps lived in blind faith. True faith can withstand skepticism.
this was my experience as well
Matthew 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Jesus then left them and went away.
Whats the sign of Jonah
@@icarovdl Jonah was swallowed by a whale for three days. Jesus was swallowed by death for three days. And rose again.
The sign of Jonah is the sign of Christ's resurrection.
@@drserr6581 wow thats really cool
I'm one of those Christian that converted in a process than involved use of psychedelics as one of the key elements. I was a hardcore materialist, and after my first trip I felt deeply that reality is a narrative and symbolic experience, everything looked "clearer" to me. After that switch, I was eager to find answer that were able to explain what was missing from the material perspective.
One interesting thing about psychedelics is that they work best in natural surroundings and this is very apparent to the user. Taking mushrooms in a sterilized white lab room (or really inside any building) will not produce nearly as good an experience as taking them outside in nature. Manmade objects like buildings and electronics feel very "fake" and "plastic" while the truth and sublime beauty of God's creation hits you instantly.
Like a Grateful Dead concert?
@@ironmonkey1512 😂😂😂
Christianity and these mushrooms dont work together
That’s often true. Roland Griffiths work also screened out psychosis, created a safe environment, and used blindfolds with classical music, preparation, and an observer there to calm the patient.
@@icarovdl not my experience
It would seem to me as though you've mischaracterized Peterson's position on psychedelics and his thoughts on too heavy a reliance on materialist perspectives. The danger of any position is that it becomes rigid without openness to new info, which is true of both materialists and dogmatic thinkers. If psychedelics cannot be valid because there is no "work" then why are near death experiences valid? The mind is the interpreter, the experience is the tool, ascribing value for other people to one over the other seems to ignore a plurality of possibilty in arriving at the same conclusions.
cope and seethe druggie!
I think you slightly misunderstood. He said he didn't have experience of psychedelics, but he was mainly emphasising the need for a guide, in all cases. That includes psychedelics. You can't just take a pill and find god, unless you are extremely lucky. The same does go with dogma, hence the monks that go mad. Demons will drag you down if you loose touch.
@@golem4892 Very well possible that was the overarching intent. It's also very well possible that individual biases can be projected onto someone in a time of significant personal flux. Not saying I'm right or he's wrong, it just seemed like it was less of a "maybe it works with the right help I dont know" and more of a "you can anlayze it so it falls into materialist worldview and that's a faulty path" c.6:35
Like sex/procreation without the sacrament of marriage.
That's one of the riskiest sayings I've read in Christian net.
@@manubishe What's risky about it?
@@sil5771 taking the proposition "sex outside marriage" as a path to enlightenment,
Like doing trips without the set, setting, and the appropriate guides,
Is a gamble - most will end up with tougher life, while few will find a path to a better life
I think you should think of psychedelics in line with experiences of nature and art. If experiences of the natural world or music or painting bring you closer to God, that’s a good thing. There’s always the danger you’ll mistake the thing for God Himself, but if therefore we cut out anything that’s not God we end up with Protestant minimalism and a minimalist deity.
Here’s a list of all the Fathers who encouraged their flock to take psychedelics:
They were sworn to secrecy 😂
Lest one be accused of witchcraft, or anything similar.
@@MaverickBEvans The Greek word "pharmakeia" means these things:
1. the use or the administering of drugs
2. poisoning
3. sorcery, magical arts, witchcraft
4. the deceptions and seductions of idolatry
Drugs, hallucinations and witchcraft have nothing to do with the spiritual experiences of the saints and have nothing to do with the miracles performed by Christ and the saints. Drugs are related to witchcraft and all the enemies of the Light whom work through illusions and darkness and false lights.
@@panteleimonthehealer963 Revelation 18:23 “by thy Pharmakeia were all nations deceived”
@@criminaltotheworld3154 I know brother.
I do think a caution concerning mushrooms and such is beware unearned wisdom. That's certainly one thing about following the Lord Christ is that he only gives wisdom we are prepared to receive, and he prepares us to receive wisdom
I might suggest that is the problem those mentioned monks have, which is probably compelled my pride, is the seeking of wisdom they are no prepared to receive, or as I said unearned wisdom
I wonder who they've told their motivation for trying the beyond, since, I'm sure, there are monks who ate shrooms and kept the experience private, just as faith has a private aspect.
Anyone who takes mushrooms and concludes that what they experience has anything to do with eating a mushroom has missed the point entirely.
Reality isn’t a mushroom.
The perspective is that psychedelic mushrooms are considered medicine, medicine that helps your body's natural healing process when it comes to trauma. So in some sense its thanks to the medicine because if you didn't take it, healing nor a mystical experience wouldn't happen right there and then, but it's only a powerful ultra fast super speed booster on how we normally process trauma
I seem to remember Jordan talking about being cautious about "unearned" divine experiences.
Aka mushroom trip?!
He has. And he has done so with regard to Jung and unearned experience, too.
@@nulltheworm how hasn’t he earned it he’s literally paid to teach kids if anyone is worthy of wisdom it’s a man who dedicated his whole life to the subject
@@eggheadusa9900 You either haven't read and understood what I've said or what Robert Brinkley has said, or you should change your name to PotatoHeadUSA.
@@nulltheworm your comment was formatted weird I thought you were saying the opposite. Don’t you ever disrespect the egg buddy
I think Dr Peterson is trying to make obscure deep content easily digestible to the more rational borderline materialist minds. I think he takes special care to not stear from his Clinical Psychologist point of view. I appreciate it. One man cannot be all. He has chosen.
Yes well said, but the assertion that Peterson's hypotheses about the Eleusinian mysteries, and other countless instances of ritual psychedelic use, as purely materialistic in nature is a mischaracterization. Peterson takes great care in his questioning of such events, going so far as to admit that his explanations are founded on what little psychedelic research and anecdotal evidence is available, and that he doesn't truly know why these substances provide access to such deep archetypal drama and revelatory experience. Suffice to say, more exploration on these subjects is not just warranted, but necessary.
I'm one of those that had one unintentionally high dose psychedelic experience and converted. On one side was an awareness of all my sin, and on the other was a vision of every moment of Christs suffering being attached to those sins ... I was in the middle of 2 people fighting for my soul and I can see how this experience could have easily led me down to hell itself were it not I believe for the prayers of my parents.
I agree. As someone who's done psychedelics like LSD and mushrooms there is a sense of "knowing" (the best way i can put it). That alone didn't change my personality enough to become "religious" or "spiritual". There is definitely more involved life altering behaviors that need to be accomplished before becoming "Christ-like".
Jon-Hopkins research on psilocybin's effects on trait openness.
True Love is Real. All is Love, Love is All. Love everyone, love your self, love enemies, and above all Love LOVE with all your being. Love is God. Follow the way of Love.
Not a lot of mythology needed, just more mercy, compassion, and loving kindness.
Also love JP, and also have my own places I disagree with him, but I wouldn’t say this was one of them.
Jordan does, as you say, talk about the materialistic facts about psychedelics. He really couldn’t be a Psychologist without that empirical and rational knowledge, as these are the epistemologies Modern Universities are based off.
But I think he’s always quite clear that he’s not saying that those materialistic facts completely account for what there is to know about psychedelics or religious practices or human experience overall.
In fact I remember before the famous JP Sam Harris debates, JP criticizing people who claimed that they know nothing else but material physics was happening in the world.
Since I am not a fan of JP I will say this
"He really couldn’t be a Psychologist without that empirical and rational knowledge, as these are the epistemologies Modern Universities are based off."
And that's why being part of that system discredits him.
Great thanks to both JP's for their guidance, each working their own corner 🙏
so much this
A psychedelic experience primed me for my baptism roughly 3 years later.
Wonderful! It was the Jesus prayer that led me to Orthodoxy
Its not good or bad. Its up to the individual. It can be good, it can be bad. Like the internet for example
It's a super powerful tool, easy to misuse
@@lucbriedecooper yea. But that doesnt make it bad
I sleep with a revolver. Not been attacked by any entities, except my fat cat Jimmie Pickles. Its not that weird.
Psychedelics (specifically Ayahuasca and Psilocybin mushrooms) have undoubtedly lead me to Christ. Have had Catholic/Orthodox/Biblical themes sprinkled through most of my experiences. Seeing the Lamb of God sacrificed and being showered and protected in Its blood, viewing an indescribable 4D(?) Tetragrammaton, seeing the Sacred Heart of Christ with thorns and a crown on top, to experiencing the crucifixion of Christ and hearing the voice of God, presumably.
However I do agree these experiences are very dangerous and the average person should not try to induce them by any means.
@ ø I've also heard that the boundaries of the two brain hemispheres become more connected, thus unifying the imaginative/unconscious side of the mind with the waking/material part. The experiences might then mirror what ever preconceptions and genetic guidelines one has embedded in their unconscious. One connects with God during a trip, another with the universe, and some with aliens. This could be a part of the mystery of psychedelics and what they do to our psyche, go figure.
Textbook Prelest
"grounding" is a favorite word for new agers, is like "the universe"
So what? It's just another way of saying "to have a foundation" in something.
@@MedalOfPedal22 🤣dude is just an observation, calm down
😬
@@digitalsublime It's a great word.
@@GeorgeStanleyStan True!
"It brings humility, humility Grace of God, and in His Grace all you need for your salvation , or anything you might need to save another soul". -St Paisios
I really enjoyed the full talk that this clip is from.
No man can lead another man, only God can. We learn this in the story of the baptism.
true but elders know how to help people but we have to be weary of their own flaws as well.
@@noxot13 Exactly this. There can be good and bad sides to it
Interesting note about baptism, near death experiences are associated with DMT and especially 5-MeO-DMT. They unlock the mind in full, allowing one to see the white light and the excruciatingly earth-shattering reality of God.
What is baptism but controlled drowning?
Be Not Afraid
Jonathan, I really like you and JP, and I understand what you're saying. This happens when someone isn't called by God but believes they are and takes that position withing the calling. It happens all the time, not always by person's with Ill intent, but they don't realize they're opening a portal to allow themselves to be exposed to higher realms of good and evil without the annointing of God. That has nothing to do with salvation. My grandfather was a minister who spoke in tongues. It wasn't something anyone could do, or was encouraged to attempt. should. That would be dangerous for them and all those they exposed this to. There were very few who I saw claim to feel that annointing and were scared by it more than prideful. They sought council from the elders of the church for clarification, there would be fasting and prayer for months. And sometimes they discovered they weren't being called. This was taken very seriously. To be called by God, whether to minister or to receive a spiritual gift required a closeness to God and a greater accountability than most can understand. It was considered an annointing of the Holy Spirit.
That's the best comparison I have, but what I see in JP is that he is being called by God, the devil is fighting dirty to stop it, and JP is struggling to reconcile his beliefs. I believe one day JP will discover the simplicity of salvation and his his ability to translate between the narrative and the objective could be the reason for it. That's where we're most divided, and why it's so important for everyone that we support him in seeing this through.
But he's still on his journey, and I believe and look forward to the day we will see it come to pass. In faith.
The greatest risk of psychedelics is spiritual pride. Belief that you have achieved by simple vision what is to be attained by lifelong service and repentance.
I did the Jesus Prayer meditation once and literally felt something in my chest near the end.
I cannot agree. Psychedelics are not something we can "measure" or just put in a box, so to speak. They profoundly impact the most complex structure in the known universe: the human brain. Nobody understands exactly how this process works, or what it really means. You cannot discount a psychedelic experience as some goofy, temporary spasm of the mind-body complex. Some of them stay with people for the duration of their lives and fundamentally change their inner selves.
I've been drawn to spirituality and mysticism my whole life, even entering microdose-like states anytime I get a fever. After experiencing this during this past week, I realized that it was because I had a near-death experience as a child. I couldn't imagine my life without the psychedelic, and I would lean toward people using them. But I also agree that they are very dangerous.
Now that I'm finally starting to understand what it means to be a shaman, I can only hope that my art can provide guidance for others in these times of chaos.
No thanks
New age Spawn.
There were so many notable figures in the "esotericism/psychology/mysticism" milieu during the first half of the twentieth century: Gurdjieff, Ramana, Krishnamurti, Meher Baba, Guenon, Jung, and others; but they all seem to have kept their distance from each other.
Psychedelics are a shortcut to undeserved knowledge.
If theres any truth to the supernatural world at all, and there exist chemicals than can legitimately allow you to interact with it, people should be very very carefull around such substances, Going blind into an experience like that with the aim of having fun is like walking in the wildnerness blindfolded, you just shouldnt do it.
Eve could not explain through peer reviewed scientific studies why she ate the fruit of the tree
Watch children and you will find yourself warning them, ' ...K, your asking for it!' Our lives are a prayer and God knows sign language perfectly.
The way of ascent is also the way of descent. Whether the angels raise You up or the demons drag You down (Dark Night of the Soul even) the end result or destination’s about the same (down generally causes more loss n burning away, so individuation is lost)… n of course the descent generally will cause more damage to You and others… b don’t forget the hell of crucification. Why should You be any different?
The best thing about psychedelics is if you don't take them you won't become oppressed by demons. Hhmmm🤦🤔
Ideally, in Orthodoxy, individual mystical practices are subject to the overview of a spiritual father; the concept is to avoid excesses or distortions.
Huston Smith (super cool spiritual teacher AND the real deal practitioner) also believed that intense preparation and a serious God-centered intention was really important before taking any kind of psychedelic.
You shouldn't take any kind of psychedelic.
It's like calling my wife to tell her I love her before I commit adultery.
He has some good insight, worth seeing his talks on YT
@@romeisburning6739 Hi, could you explain that? Is taking psychedelics a sin? Why?
I always felt that Peterson spoke like this because he came to some wisdom by exhausting materialist thought. Almost like he uses this language as the hook to reel people in to seeing that it is not the be all end all. (Maybe I am wrong and just projecting my own take on it.)
Great clip.quite intriguing.
In Judaism there is a book called the Zohar which is THE book on Jewish mysticism/Kabbala. A Jewish man is forbidden to read that book until he is 40 years old, married to a wife and has kids. This is because he needs to know himself first (which is probably achieved by age 40) and have a family to keep him grounded instead of running the risk of being on permanent spiritual high.
40 years, 40 days, all part of the path to spirituality through fasting and meditation "the time in the desert." By receding from worldly desire to seek enlightenment. I heavily recommend reading about the desert fathers. Spiritual enlightenment has always been tied to ascetic practice.
Been studying kabbalah for 10 years now. You have to have an incredibly strong spirit. Starting seeing all the different parts that make up reality, both heaven and hell that's created by individuals. Which we all choose between the two
Mushrooms help facilitate ego death, you have to give up your control.
I don't think Peterson ever recommended taking psychedelics... I think he is just curious to learn about it.
Not just the material hallucinogen, even just getting caught up in the psychological benefits of the ritual and narrative is materialistic too. Reminds me of when business execs talk about the psychology of anything, what they're really talking about isn't psychology but exploitation. Same with magick. Although the goal of theosis is nominally the same, the obsession with the mechanisms and formulas undermine... not unlike a pickup artist objectifying women.
Interesting how a physical (chemical) reaction triggers a spiritual experience and is used as a proof of non-materialistic world and spirit/soul. Looks like we are bound with our body, which makes a physical resurrection inevitable (without physical body we can’t give our spirit experience). Or it is irrelevant and a way of deception of this world.
Hmmm, a book is material, images are illusive, I suppose with this logic, nothing could bring you to spirituality but yourself and interactions with others? I’m under the belief that a lot of folks are lead to the light after enduring darkness. Maybe the beauty and often times- utter terror of psychedelic may trigger a transformation, and to judge may not be for onlooking individuals, for the experience is only to be interpreted by the one whom experiences, and the judgement saved for God. How am I to judge a persons’ spiritual nature, if their enlightenment was induced by getting in a wreck while drunk driving? I love this channel and typically love your insight but this just seems so petty in the grand scheme of word menacing... maybe even, self righteous?
upvote if you got clickbaited
"You think this is the material world? Well that is just someone's philosophical idea. You think the world is spiritual? That is also an idea. The real world is not material nor spiritual. It's simply-"
Either you’re intentionally straw Manning or misunderstanding , hopefully the latter
"Κύριε Ιησού Χριστέ ελέησον με"
05:04 That is not true. It has been shown to help people with for example addiction and fear of death. I would say that is definitely something that can free you from your demons or make you a better person. Just take a look at Roland Griffith's research.
Yeah and they can also make you psychotic
So you are taking Sam Harris’ position on psychedelics and straw manning it to Jordan Peterson?
Movie Quote-
"It's the world beneath the world, dr. Robinson, lie once cheat twice, and all becomes clear"
I was really glad to see you on Brasil Paralelo's documentary!
"Its the MUSHROOM!"
I'm not worried about Jordan. He's wise enough.
King solomn was wise but ended bad
@@DG-nu8ez Some do.
I can only speak for my experiences. Having been in psychosis and hospital after hospital. Due to a break with psychedelics. I would say it is very dangerous to engage the spiritual through psychedelics. There may be fringe cases and and examples throughout history. I think that they are for the most part outliers and that God has a special call on their life. But I would not encourage my brothers nor sisters.
it may seem attractive but just like the ring of power hunted Gollum, so too can psychedelics seeking God. Pray. Pray. Pray. The Holy Spirit will move us closer to God.
The Lord‘s prayer is a powerful prayer strong enough to bring anybody to Jesus and ultimately to The Father.
I'm curious, what was your experience with psychedelics and did you have a history of schizophrenia in your family by chance?
@@lucbriedecooper by schizophrenia, do mean “unable to think clearly”. Not really. Believing psychedelics help and actually learning how to live a healthy life are worlds apart. I think that in rare case psychedelics MAY help for a certain person but as a general rule they should be looked as a a last option or not be brought into treatment at all.
The hell that I was in was unbearable. The amount of dopamine that dropped in my head caused such an imbalance that it is taking me a lot to recover from.
Some may read this and think I’m just a junkie. I wasn’t. I volunteered for a Johns Hopkins study that left me broken and with a decade of depression and left me suicidal.
I would encourage every believer in Christ that may be thinking about ayahuasca or some other hard psychedelics to pray and seek Gods first. Be open to a little bit of suffering. His love never fails. You will get past the hardship of this life. Those hardcore psychedelics can have devastating consequences.
@@AaronDAntoni The data on psychedelics in therapeutic sessions by Roland Griffiths incontrovertibly shows the experiences to have been beneficial to an extremely high percentile, repeatedly. That’s a fact.
What I would add is that it was in a therapeutic setting, and the people who were given these powerful dosages were screened for normative functionality. It’s much more likely that deeply imaginative a spiritual outliers are in greater danger from mystical experiences (psychedelic or not) and a large percentile are broken by it and only some, through guidance and discipline come back together, or make it through, and the most exceptional cases likely make working bodies of work, philosophy, art, and theology, or act in such a heroic or generative manner that we remember, and even mythologized them, the further back removing their historical weaknesses and pathologies.
I have benefited from psychedelic usage, but it led to very tough and borderline experiences, and was preceded by powerful dreams breaking through in midlife, a bad child hood, addictive behaviors, and combat PTSD. I would not want another mystical experience that I could not live up to, and find disciplined journaling, meditation, prayer, dream work, and community, with reading to be more important.
That said, it was also a necessary experience for me, and it was necessary for me to look into comparative religion, and psychology, because though I personally (as an act of faith, with no proof, drawing from traditions, especially my western traditions) believe that these experiences come from something greater than me, that is inneffible and requires the knowledge of these religions, I, and many others simply cannot just believe in the old manner in one single, literal version of man’s understanding of God.
I think there are plenty who actually can believe, and are literal Christians etc, who also require deeper contemplation, such as the monks and St.s mentioned in the video, or in esoteric literature across religions, that warn of the dangers. For some of these people the risk is worth it, and a necessary experience, as some dynamic between different views on this, and collective experience of the positives and dangers were necessary for these traditions to understand them and have sophisticated spaces for them.
We seem to have made a space for it in the most orthodox establishments of Christianity, and take care of those who fall by the wayside. Even in Indian religion they have stories of Gurus who get it wrong and become lecherous, power hungry, greedy, or hubristic (which Greek myth was full of), the dangers of the Holy Ghost are warned of in the Bible, and Christianity has shown a fear of the Paraclete historically, and we see the final prayers of the saints for Dante to retain his sanity when he has at-one-ment with God at the end of Paradiso, actually losing memory of the experience and alluding to having to start over in the center of the story with a slight change and piece of the divine grown inside of him to make the next circling of existence better.
Those are very legitimate concerns, but I don’t think they can be falsely prosecuted to the point of stating everyone who uses them, or has non psychedelic experiences will go insane and cannot face these things without preparation. I don’t think they can be exaggerated to avoid that most people have experimented with some form of drugs, some not even as bad as alcohol, during development for most of human history, or to avoid, without retconning Christianity into nothing but a mushroom cult, that these experiences as well as mimetic exchange happened in religion, and deeper experience was at one point provided by religion to found it, and the removal of that to enforce, rather than engender a propositional literalism in the Bible for all mankind is not working, and cannot be prescribed for everyone to the exclusion of all religious/spiritual experience.
In the end I don’t think that’s going to stack up, and is typically an argument meant to reify one’s propositional belief across society by getting others to also espouse it and assert its hegemony.
And to be clear, I commend you for sharing *your personal belief*, and coming to it through experience, and deepening your personal faith in a way that can show the dangers to people, as well as the upside of dogma and discipline. I am not attacking your belief and experience, it is a specific argument about facts and numbers of successful use of psychedelics, and the assertion of your belief for everyone that overrules the dynamic between your position and the pros and cons of the more personal/mystic elements of our culture, as well as changes in knowledge that require opponent processing.
@@Ac-ip5hd It’s not my belief. It is my lived, first hand experience. Using psychedelics in the form of therapy can still cause damage. The research does not show the broken lives that their pubic‘s like that does. It is one man Which may be true for some. But definitely not all. I stand by my statement that psychedelics should not be used or used in rare cases.
@@AaronDAntoni Just to clarify by belief I’m talking about your religious belief, not your stance on psychedelics, the stance on psychedelics I’m in partial agreement with you, but pointing to hard data of numerous people using them without being destroyed, and with selection in a therapeutic setting that the vast majority benifit. I think your stance should be listened to, and we should have a care, and social judgement and dialogue should happen, but not to exclude the benefits and other side of the discussion, or make things worse monetizing gangsterism and imprisoning people over it, or avoiding the 21st century discussion on religion to protect positivism.
Well, many of us may have to encounter the demons Jordan is facing now sometime in the future. Easy to sit and interpret other's processes and think one is safely passed such things. Remember the three nights John of the Cross carefully explained. There are levels of love of God and experienced illumination that is only what St Paul referred to as "milk" levels, despite unshakeable conviction of the solidity of one's faith.
Jordan Peterson, says beware of unearned .....
You promised me a shortcut! I'm very disappointed.
Also, I'm now scared of the Jesus Prayer and I'll be thinking of "entities" before my sleepy time. Not a happy customer here
😂😂😂😂😂😭😭😭😭
I used to say the Lord's prayer by rewording it differently each time. Same meaning said through varied terms. I found it very beneficial.
The "Jesus Prayer" isn't the "Our Father who art in heaven" Lords prayer. It's a very short prayer asking for mercy.
@@NathanSmutz Yeap, not the first time I do this in English. I just edited it, thank you ^^
Pageau makes far too many straw man arguments. Here there was an argument from ignorance made, too.
If challenging ideas can't be engaged in good faith, then perhaps challenging one's faith is a good idea..
There really should be a disclaimer about Jung
there are dangers to everything but at some point you either turn the saints into idols or you draw closer to God
While this conversation was actually fairly stimulating, I feel like within the context of JP... it seemed to be really uninformed, or maybe disingenuous? You cite certain things he has said or believes either completely out of context or just never said at all. It kind of turned this conversation a little sour for me. I think it would have been a great conversation were that not included, it almost came across like a name drop for clicks more than an actual conversation weaving into the contextual statements or conversations of JP.
I’m a person who has taken mushrooms and is now Christian - I’ve had conversations with people that sound like that 7:51 and I’m like “duude noo way it’s just the mushrooms” ☺️
The Greek word "pharmakeia" means these things:
1. the use or the administering of drugs
2. poisoning
3. sorcery, magical arts, witchcraft
4. the deceptions and seductions of idolatry
Drugs, hallucinations and witchcraft have nothing to do with the spiritual experiences of the saints and have nothing to do with the miracles performed by Christ and the saints. Drugs are related to witchcraft and all the enemies of the Light whom work through illusions and darkness and false lights.
I am also an ex-psychedelic drug user.
Peterson repeated what Jung said about psychedelics which is "beware of unearned wisdom"
It’s super easy, barely an inconvenience…
If you treat them as such, you're in for a rude awakening. Some people get themselves in much deeper than they can handle, with catastrophic consequences.
Wow wow WOW.
If you’re still a materialistic you haven’t tripped hard enough…..just my opinion
Is the door to the church a shortcut? Is entering the church always safe?Psychedelics are a gateway. They have their dangers. Individuals may get fixated with symbols (the Virgin) or objects (Chalice, mushroom), but that does not negate their value for pointing the way towards and/or deepening the spiritual life. Not all those who seek will find and not all those who stray will stay lost.
Psychedelics are far from being "the known pill".
Very far from it.
Lotta upset drug users in the comments😭
I think Christians should consider using psychedelics. But how it's integrated with religious ritual is important, and those who have achieved Theosis should lead the way toward this integration. Psychedelics are an effective tool for breaking down materialism and other psychological blocks between us and the Transcendent. However, even a materialist scientist could tell you that set (external environment) and setting (internal intentions, frame of mind) are absolutely crucial determinants for the experience. Set and setting is what ancient and shamanistic rituals essentially address, which speaks to the need for Tradition, symbols, etc. Synthesis between psychedelics and EOC has not been achieved, but I think it's too soon to say it will never be achieved. Some South American Christians have succeeded in this synthesis, however.
Bible says to have a sober mind.
@@x.r.d7744 Perhaps if you read the bible in a very crass and literal way. It would also seem that Bible tells us to not wear clothing made of two different kinds of fabric. The Bible's commands must be understood in context- for instance, sex isn't a sin but making an idol of sex (lust) is. The Bible is meant to be understood and way of life according to a wisdom tradition that leads to Life, not just read and followed like an instruction manual. What is a means to God is redeemed, but what is made an end is an idol and leads astray.
@@koffeeblack5717you have zero authority to do any type of interpretation of the holy book
@@vinip4 It's cognitively impossible to read the Bible without interpreting it (unless you use it as an instruction for making noises, of course). Even the idea that we should only subscribe to the Orthodox Churche's interpretation is itself based upon interpretation. The questions is which interpretation is more reasonable and why.
@@koffeeblack5717 The church one.
That boy need to try some mushrooms
Did you really meet monks that lost their minds in mount Athos?? Sounds a bit far fetched to me. It's more like that they have found peace to me.
@7:51 he cursed! I'm telling Jesus.
Ezra goes into the wildernesses and eats only flowers n talks to God 2Esdras9:26
I thought the danger he was falling into was a meth addiction
I love Pageau's content but he uses petersons name too much to get clicks. Peterson has warned about subconscious and psyedelics A LOT.
That might have been more true if Jonathan ran his own clips channel, which he doesn't.
Also, he might be thinking about a discussion between him and Jordan which hasn't been made public yet... So... stay tuned for more content on this topic between the two of them.
-L
Actually, Pageau doesn't know any better than anyone else whether or not it's just the mushroom.
As Hitchens would say, we're all just mammals, noone has access to more than any other mammal.
I’m quite surprised at the thumbs up to thumbs down ratio on this video. It’s overly cynical and has a click bait title.
You should look into Reformed Christianity.
check out mike tysons experience doing "the toad" (DMT). pretty amazing transformation
The religious fear of psychadelics is self defeating. Psychadelics force you to think spiritually. Forcing a mind trained to think in purely rationalist materialist ways to encounter a different perspective can be hugely transformative. With the state of Christianity as it is, it can only help you if more people have experiences that challenge their base assumptions about reality, even if there is a risk they draw incorrect conclusions from those experiences. Worst case scenario they just continue being wrong in a different way, best case scenario they join you.
Kinda sounds like meditative breathing practices in buddhism. Along with the talk about the saint that lost a leg from standing on one foot while praying for years sounds a lot like hindu puja. I dont understand how this isnt christianity finding it's way back to older religions.
Christianity isn't 'finding its way back' to anything that hasn't already been incorporated during 3-8 centuries AD. Older religions often grasp some of the truth, but not all of it. As they couldn't before the incarnation of the Logos.
@@Max-ke3ty 2000 years of having logos on their side and it seems the church has schismed out and weakend over time. Being brought up in an evangelical church as a kid I'd honestly be suprised if christianity is still around by time I'm in my 40s. Good luck to you.
@@jaydwy8069 The deterioration is even worse in the oriental religions.
You guys have never tried psychedelics yet act as if you know what it is, funny
This was great! Don’t like the profanity though
Super opasno je blag izraz.