Excellent analysis again NC...I would say one of the most relevant of Dune's themes today, would be the warnings against AI: the Butlerian Jihad, the banishment of any and all AI devices from the Duniverse by punishment of death (One of the Commandments of the Orange Catholic Bible: "Thou Shalt Not Make a Machine in the Likeness of a Human Mind")...and that humans were able to maximize their own internal potential once they threw off the shackles of their machine overlords....As Leto II said: "The target of the Jihad was a machine-attitude as much as the machines. Humans had set those machines to usurp our sense of beauty, our necessary selfdom out of which we make living judgments. Naturally, the machines were destroyed."
and as far as adaptation goes, its suppose to be creativity and not pushing ones agenda into an already established IP, just because one can entertain the children with hollow, muted, uninspired seemingly all intentional spectacles and whiles also cutting out film making challenges
The key themes I take from his books is "Blindspots" and thinking for one's self. When people put their faith in a charismatic leader, they stop thinking for themselves and leave themselves open to dangers in their "blindspot." When people allowed thinking machines to make decisions for them, it first lead to wars between people using thinking machines, which then lead to the Butlerian Jihad (this was not the rise of evil AI to destroy humanity.) When people put blind faith into supposed religious leaders, without question, they leave themselves open to dangers in their "blindspot." Paul was written as the perfect blind spot. He was given the support of the Missionaria Protectiva, establishing a ready and willing following across the imperium -- this granted him religious authority. He was a good man, wanted the best for people, had the logical and analytical powers of a mentat, the physical perceptiveness, control, and genetic memories of all male humanity from the Bene Gesserite training, and the prescient foresight of the guild navigators. If ANYONE could be said to have the best position to lead mankind, with that wealth of past human experience, and foresight, a person like that would come close to the mark. However, Paul was just as vulnerable to blindspots as the rest of us. Putting his faith in his prescient vision, he gave up on thinking for himself, and let himself be carried along by "destiny", effectively. He allowed himself to think he was trapped by knowing the future, and yet there were many possible futures, and many "troughs" in which his vision was clouded. He saw those areas he couldn't see in his visions as bad things, but those were opportunities. Now, I differ with the author on the matter of religious faith, but a great many religions do fall into man-made false stories that succumb to Frank Herbert's warnings. I also differ with him on the belief in the reality of oracular sight (oracles, use of tarot to predict the future, etc), while I do believe in prophesy recorded in the Bible. I won't get into either of those things here. Anyway, that's enough for this... and without taking much time to formulate all my thoughts on the matter.
@@CitizenScott I don't feel like arguing this point, only to say, I hold to my original statement. There were several things Paul could not see. Prescience had its limitations. Notably at least once when Paul's life was on the line.
@@NameNotAChannel Then he wasn't truly prescient, and the Golden Path itself was a false prophecy. This convo ends ends up getting into determinism, multiverses, metaphysics, etc., but my point is the book gives us direct access to his internal motivations, so unless Herbert is lying to us, or Paul is lying to himself, then that's the truth of it.
@@CitizenScott ... must I? The "Golden Path" was something that dipped into troughs at certain points, where it could end, but "one way" lead out of the trough to continue the path. That one path allowed for humanities continued existence in the face of the enemy that could also see the future. To combat this enemy, the God Emperor undertook a grand breeding program to produce a genetic variant that could not be seen in prescient vision, but also could not see the future themselves (navigators could not track Paul, and Paul could not see those who were in proximity of navigators, which allowed for the plot against him in Dune Messiah...) The Golden Path required that humans never be determined to create a single unified group that could be wiped out by a single enemy. The tyrannic rule of the God Emperor was intended to produce a genetic urge in all humans after he was gone to spread among the stars, which initiated the great scattering. Humans no longer even knew where all the other humans were in the universe. Paul's revulsion and rejecting of the Golden Path was due to not wanting to become a worm-man hybrid as well as the injustices that would be wrought upon mankind by the God Emperor and the things he needed to do to ensure the Golden Path. Just because he couldn't see every step along the way did not mean that the Golden Path didn't exist, or that Paul wasn't prescient... there were simply rules and limitations to prescience, which go even further, but I'm not inclined to go into it in full detail without quotes from the books, which UA-cam seems to instantly delete from comment sections.
@@NameNotAChannel Yeah man I've read the books. I know the plot. I get what you're saying. I'm talking about the logical implications. You said, "Paul was just as vulnerable to blindspots as the rest of us." I'm saying he was not. If he was then he wouldn't be prescient, and he wouldn't be Paul. That's the point of prescience. That's the point of Paul. Ostensibly anyway. If he truly was "just as vulnerable to blindspots as the rest of us" then he wasn't truly prescient, and everything he ever 'foresaw' must be called into question, including the Golden Path and all the suffering it caused, which may have been unnecessary. Paul chose a course of action that created the situation he found himself in. Every choice, every action, everything before, it all leads to the present. That's how time works. That's how consequence works. That's what Dune is about. There's no evidence to prove that Paul had to massacre bllions of people. Just his word based on his "prescience," and that of his own son the tyrant, Leto II. Without them humanity could have been fine, that is if he wasn't truly prescient. If he was truly prescient then all of that suffering was truly necessary, which means he accurately foresaw the future, including the Golden Path he couldn't stomach, and he was not "just as vulnerable to blindspots as the rest of us." If he was "just as vulnerable to blindspots as the rest of us" the he was not truly prescient. I could go back and forth like this forever... I know it sounds nice to use rhetoric like, "Paul was just as vulnerable to blindspots as the rest of us," about a guy who was said to be prescient, but you can't have it both ways, amigo. BTW Saying Paul had blindspots while also still trusting his visions seems like one heck of a blindspot if you ask me. It's almost like doing exactly what Herbert was warning about. Just sayin.
@Nerd Cookies. I saw the post on twitter about people slamming your voice. I think that’s just trolls, I think you’re doing a great job, your voice and the way you narrate and inflect in I your videos is awesome! I wasn’t really into Dune at first but these new films and your videos have sparked an interest. Looking forward to move to come!
The message i got from the books was the problems that spring from the gap between being a leader and being led. Leto pessimistically recalls how the other houses look to him for leadership as Leto the Just, knowing how that puts him in the firing line of the unjust like the Emperor and Baron. Paul likewise sees how lost some of his subjects are and how critics don't understand the choices he makes while the subjects view him as not understanding the human cost of some of his choices.
The movie should have been 30 minutes longer, covering the importance of spice and the spacing guild. Neither part 1 nor 2 went into detail as to why spice was so important. I didn't quite understand the importance until watching this video. Well done !
To be fair, Dune is so concentrated and complex, you could make it into a 15-hour miniseries and still have to leave things out. Though I agree there are some fundamental ideas from the story that almost require exposition into order for the viewer to understand if they have not read the books. That one thing I think the 1984 version did better. Granted narrated exposition is a weak form of storytelling, sometimes it is the best way to churn through background material so you can tell the story with some frame of reference. If the '84 version failed it was that it did not clearly explain that the emperor's daughter is a historian. In that case it makes the exposition more tolerable.
I personally believe Villeneuve should have taken Herbert's example and done the adaption as a Trilogy; *Dune* [Bildungs Roman], *Mudad'Dib* [integrating into the Fremen], *Prophet* [Mahdi leads the Fremen to Victory]. Each of 2 hours or more.
"For the Imperium, spice is used by the navigators of the Spacing Guild to find safe paths between the stars. Without spice, interstellar travel is impossible, making it by far the most valuable substance in the universe." Literally 5 minutes into Part One.
I read dune when I was 15 and it blew me away. It was 1965 and I had no idea what an ecologist was not to mention a planetary one! I think your analysis is spot on. How interesting how prophetic some science fiction can be.
I could listen to everything you say. All day. I love Dune and I love your voice. Please tell me it's your real voice. Great job with these essays. I've been watching a binge worth already. Cheers.
Black Adam is about Thoth and there are Muslim people,Dune movie Mahdi is about Thoth returning to free his people but its actually Enki returning and some will fight against him because they are programmed and only late do they figure out he is not evil and then comes the true Satan Enlil.
As always, wonderful video. I've been in awe of Dune since I first read it decades ago. Just my opinion, of course, but I have been struck by the care he put into the texture and world building. The lesson is that we shouldn't blindly follow charismatic leaders. But the Fremen culture had been manipulated to the degree that the individuals in the current day (Stilgar, Chani, and even Kynes) weren't blindly following anything. They were making clear, sensible choices given their situation. To be clear, I'm not arguing against the conclusion or that it was what Herbert intended. I'm just fascinated at the work, the skill and effort he put into setting up the situation so that characters could observe, reason, and decide the way they did. As Thufir would say "plans within plans within plans."
I got to watch Dune 2 last night in IMAX and it was great! The movie, the cinematography, acting, we're all great. But the thing I loved about Dune 2 was that it kept Frank's original message. It hammer's it home pretty good and theme is pretty prevalent. Yes, they did change some characters, timelines, and scenes from the book, but the message is still there.
@n8_b_h yeah I have. If you want to sit through an 8 hour movie to get the point across and get every little detail and character story knock yourself out.
@@bber45 it’s not a length issue. It’s a narrative and character issue. He ruined the story and the characters. 5 hours in two movies is plenty to adhere to the themes, narrative and characters. Don’t hide behind the length to justify the madness is the script.
@@n8_b_hVery true. The glaring change is Chani's negative attitude towards Paul in the second half. Certainly she was not happy about his decision to take the emperor's daughter as his wife, but by then she was completely committed to him both as the messiah and her lover. Her children are the linchpin of the ongoing story and to make her seemingly hate Paul deviates too far from the source material. If there is an adaptation of Messiah, he will have to force manipulate Chani into staying with Paul so that she can bare his children. I just do not see how that is plausible given the way he has portrayed her.
@@TwilightxKnight13 Chani in the book is too submissive in my opinion, she never questions Paul and her concerns get dismissed by Paul all the time. She's just there for him and only for him. Not sure if the Chani in the movie is better but I think it's more real
So good to see you on FNT today. Hope you appear more often. Love the artwork you use in your Dune videos. I'm seeing the movie on Imax on Sunday and can't wait.
As always, terrific video and analysis. I have my reserved seat for an IMAX showing on Sunday. Also, just preordered the 4K steelbook today. Looking forward to multiple viewings in my home theater.
Good job. Excellent. I think you hit the nail on the head. This is coming from a boomer who probably read the original three books of the saga about three times before most of you were born. Herbert was just holding a mirror up to humanity. He had first hand experience of the second World War. Hitler. Stalin. Mussolini. Roosevelt. So he knew of what he wrote. I think he had hope, but not much faith that humanity would change in the future because, I mean, let's face it. Humans have never been so good at anything throughout history as making war and killing other humans. For some reason, it seems to be one of our most basic urges. Imagine if we make it long enough to spread out through the universe. And your right, this message does seem to be much more urgent today than at any other time that I can remember. Oh well. We all end up in the same way sooner or later.
Lol wow. What a depressing glass half full view. "What humanity does best is war". Really? How come historically we have less wars, less ppl die in battles and the greatest growth, sustainability and longevity EVER? Instead of reading so many times the same Sci-Fi books, you should read some history books buddy. Lol, how sad. Hope you find something in your life to change your life view to glass half full
@@captnwinkle partner, don't pretend to know me from reading one single post because you don't. you have to know that your personal opinion, doesn't mean a thing to me. I don't know you. I don't care to know you. So do me a favor, keep your personal opinions about me, a person you do not know from Adam, to yourself. Thank you.
I saw the new movie last night. I didn’t think it was as good as part one. They changed too much and tried to pull the main themes from the whole series into the first story and made the whole thing fall flat. I think there is a reason the 3 part story arc is used the realizations of what paul has done is not know and understood until later in the series and I think the changes made to the story sort of limits its ability to continue without more significant changes. I wished for more.
I agree But I think Dune 1 is one of the best movies I’ve ever seen The 2nd one I can’t even properly rate it, because I couldn’t detach my brain from the book .. I need to watch it again And I gotta let go of my dislike of Zendaya 🤣
The problem I have with the Villeneuve's movies is that he inserted Herbert's later message, warning about blind faith in charismatic leaders, into the adaptations of the first book, which largely didn't contain that message. The first book, on its own, is largely a classic hero's journey, filled with all the common hero and villain tropes, and the classic revenge tale. The "warnings" that Paul sees for potential catastrophe for the paths he sees haven't happened yet, and were barely mentioned in contrast to the other text of the book, especially as Paul's visions are showing him multiple timelines and possibilities. The Fremen galactic war hasn't happened yet, and it wasn't set in stone. The first book didn't focus on this message/warning, and inserting it into the movies covering the first book is a mistake. Different books (and movies), even by the same author, and in the same universe, can have different messages. Having Dune be a classic hero's journey isn't antithetical to the messages of the later books. In fact, I think Herbert's warning about charismatic leaders has more impact precisely because the reader is duped just as much as the Fremen by Paul in the first book. He didn't do anything inherently wrong, he just couldn't see a way out from the path he was following, leading to the profound consequences of it, but his followers, through blind faith and a manipulated religion (from the Bene Geserit), and their own sense of superiority, caused the slaughter of billions. I'd argue that Herbert's warning, whether intended or not, is more directed at the blind followers of charismatic leaders, rather than the leaders themselves. The even greater mistake in Villeneuve's movies is that he gave this message/warning to Chani, who was supposed to be one of Paul's greatest supporters, so much so that she bared 3 of his children, the latter 2 requiring a dangerous process which ultimately killed her. The Fremen, in Herbert's works, are an incredibly pragmatic people. If Chani, or any of the other Fremen, knew Paul was manipulating them, they'd have warned their sietch and killed him on the spot. Having the mother of his 3 children become his most vocal critic completely ruins Chani, and all the subsequent books which rely upon their children.
I couldn't have written my comment any better, you are correct on all fronts. Dune, as it was written, is a hero's journey story. I believe Herbert did say he was unhappy people weren't getting the beware your chosen leaders theme enough which was his inspiration to create Dune Messiah, which if read as an epilogue to Dune, does change that two book story to the theme he wanted to emphasise. This comes to the second point about, which in my opinion, the character who we as the audience are supposed to see this conflict in faith/leadership is Stilgar, which again develops throughout Dune Messiah and Children of Dune. The changes they made to Chani were completely unnecessary and completely destroy the spirit of her character from this book in particular and any future ones they wish to adapt into this film series. Chani was the only abomination I saw in this film. The Dune parts 1 and 2 films are beautiful, and in many respects I couldn't be happier with the final product, however this destruction to Chani's character adds way to much unnecessary time trying to explore this fallacy of the leader theme took away run time better used on other characters.
I think from Denis Villeneuves perspective he's adapting Messiah as the 3rd movie in a trilogy and in order to drive home these points in that movie it needs to be set up now. It cant come out of nowhere.
Frank Herbert actually has an hour long interview on UA-cam where he goes into the whole thing and why and how he decided to write it. I urge everyone to start there.
I just saw Denis Villeneuve's Dune tonight; the movie doesn't disappoint and I can't wait to see if the movie wins the Oscar? I was so hopeful for the movie, but upon seeing the movie, I was left profoundly saddened by the ending. In Villeneuve's adaptation two things become abundantly clear. While Paul becomes the Emperor of the Known Universe; the other Great Houses refuse to acknowledge him Emperor directly causing the Jihad! The other sadder ending was that Paul and Chani; while you hoped and prayed that they'd become a ruling couple. Paul marries Princess Irulan and Chani abandons Paul and summons a worm to leave back to the remains of the southern Sietch. Thus, Frank Herbert's warning about Charismatic leaders causing more problems than they ultimately solve. The movie is powerful in IMAX! Now I want to see Part I and Part II both done in IMAX!
Exactly. Villeneuve has painted himself into a corner with his interpretation of Lady Jessica and Chani's relationship with Paul. He is going to have to deviate significantly from the subsequent source material or he's going to have to force the relationships back to where Herbert wrote them, neither of which will honor the source material or be believable. While the imagery and "blockbuster" quality of the films were entertaining, anyone who is familiar with the books and the essence of the story cannot possibly be pleased with the interpretation that was shown on screen.
That is a very good take on the Major themes of Dune. I say themes because obviously the dangers of charismatic leaders and messianic figures is one of the major themes of the Books. I would say one major theme is the question and exploration of what being able to see the possible futures would be? What is the cost of the prescience? Do we see a single linear strand of time or multiple possibilities? And if they are multiple, can we affect the future with our knowledge about it, or are we controlled by the future? Do events have their own weight that pull us towards them? And what even a minuscule change in behavior or a change of spoken word may cause in any moment and how that causes after effects that change the future. That is after all the great personal struggle Paul goes through the entire book and is the reason for some of his greatest decisions and choices. And it practically destroys him. And informs the rest of the story in additional books. Then there are additional themes woven around the major ones, such as the issue of genetic memory which plays a bigger part in the Messiah and Children. And then its fortunately solved and abandoned as a major theme when Leto comes along. Although it lingers. (never liked that shift towards that problem in the books myself, because it only served to create awful boring repetitions of things we already went through and figured out before, to put it in very light spoiler terms) The new movie (just saw it) takes one of the themes, particularly the dangers of religious fanaticism and makes it its major and practically the only theme. But the script that replaced all the cut out other major features, whole factions and themes of the story suffers from several large inconsistencies, often feels disjointed, rushed and incomplete.
Choosing the path of least resistance is truly one of the banes of existence. It ultimately only leads to greater suffering. Good lesson to learn from.
As grim as the theme is, the series has always uplifted me because it shows humanity is still around after 20K or so years. I am personally not so optimistic as to our immediate future. 😒
More of a meta theme emphasized in the first book: “It is the slow knife that kills.” That in the universe which is the biggest threat may not be noticed until it is too late. One must be quick to respond but do so with careful planning to counter the unfolding threat.
I went to see it yesterday..Its on a scale like no other movie I have ever seen..I have to agree with you on your last video spoiler about how Jessica is portraying herself as an antagonist, and the connection between Paul and Chani is so disconnected, and Gurney playing his instrument was so underwhelming..they should have just let that part out.. I want to go see it now at an imax theater...way better that than the part 1
I doubt it would happen, but more movies going further into the Dune books would be fun to see. I want to see general audience reaction with what Paul later becomes as a leader and what the Atreides will end up doing well past him. The first Dune book and movies set Paul up to be a clear, favorable protagonist. Someone a lot of people can easily root for. Taking the throne was the easy part. We will then see the test of Paul's character and competency as ruler. The start of the second book already paints a stark picture. But if you recall how Paul got his base of power and what sort of followers he acquired, the fervor he instills in them, it's not surprising. And of course, what happens with the Fremen that got him to power to begin with.
I think that beneath the critique of the trust-worthiness of various forms of power, lies the more fundamental danger stemming from the individual's unwillingness to accept responsibility for themselves, their life, and their choices. While ever we refuse to accept that responsibility, we will unconsciously be drawn to ways of slipping that burden. This is what makes us vulnerable to others; while others are made vulnerable to the corruption that comes from the power we give them.
True, though I think the perspective is more from the position of the leader. You can cultivate a great leader, but THEY cannot control the actions of their followers once their ideology takes hold. Kind of a depiction of the warning "be careful what you ask for, you might get it."
Elaine,you’re definitely on the top of your game with this most recent entry,Bravo!!! we’re seeing the author’s warnings playing right before our eyes in this country’s and planet’s current predicament 🤔
Caladan is deemed a holy site , gurney is. Named Earl of Caladan, but Jessica is its regent. It becomes a sanctuary world for the nobility. Beaten by Paul. And a bg school. Jessica runs. Paul inherited guide prime . Gives it to gurney as well , and grand generational project to colonise it , to purge it of harkonnen influences, and pollution. Its really a hell world. The people of Caladan gradually turn make it more green and free it's people from oppression. . Caladan is very much like it was when leto ruled, all that was maintained. It remains a semi paradise world , but richer ( Castle Caladan becomes a dort of small bg school. ) Although during this jihad Paul enemies plan to destroy it , and let's just say he doesn't take thst well . ( and he knows they plan to do it before they get the chance to do it ) .
I would theorize that the Bene Gesserit is doubly responsible for its own demise : it created a lineage of charismatic leaders using its genetic program as they want to place their Kwizatch Haderach as ffuture Emperor, and alos they created the conditions of the Fremen Jihad through the Missionaria Protectiva : the two plots collided with catastrophic consequences. The worse for the Bene Gesserit, as hinted during Paul's meeting with RM Gaius Helen Mohiam, and more clearly in the Appendix, is that the Bene Gesserit had lost the very reason of their own existence, just seeking power for power, and later forcing Leto II to assume their role as guide for mankind.
@stefbeg Excellent point but I think you go a step too far. My understanding of the Missionaria Protectiva is that it is a seeding program and escape mechanism for Bene Gesserit's in potentially useful/dangerous societies. It is not one size fits all ("They planted that one here! Aiee, this must be a terrible place."), and does not have a pre-determined end point. The collision of that prophetic seed and a Kwisatch Hadderach arrived before his time and outside of the control of the Sisterhood was an unanticipated intersection.
The BG never died out...according to the later books even after the BG merged with the Honored Matres, a breakaway faction of BG escaped...no doubt because they also felt the original BG mission became corrupted, once they took in the HM...Jessica herself said to Thufir, regarding the Bene Gesserit, "We truly exist only to serve"
I’ve never read the books nor heard about dune until I watched Dune 1 on Amazon prime . The movie was so good, I purchased digital and watched about 4 times. When I heard dune 2 was releasing, I wet my pants . Both movies are great , I just watched dune 2 today on Amazon prime and I watched when it first released in March . I want to read the books
I think a big message to be taken is "be careful what you wish for." The Bene Gesserit wanted an ubermensch, the Fremen a messiah, the Harkonnen the Atreides to be gone. They all got what they wanted, and it destroys them in the end.
They had better show the Spacing Guild and at least one Guild Navigator if they make Dune Messiah. The plot between the Bene Gesserit, Princess Irulan, the Tleilaxu, the Ixians and the Guild by need must at least show Edrich.
“Plans within plans” sums it up Layers upon layers, like cogs in a machine... some individually important, others (like Duncan’s saga) way more important... and not. Politics, religion... the story is not linear enough to make such small claims. In reality it is amazing how so many thru the ages have become such big fans of this. Tolkien’s saga is simple in comparison, and if you made Sargon any more complexity people would quit... or perhaps not he he.
I've always felt that the best sci-fi remains timeless and/or relevant going forward because the author has a good grasp of human nature... which is a theme usually at the core of most good works of sci-fi. These works become relevant again and again going forward because people (as history has repeatedly shown) tend to make the same mistakes or fall into the same patterns.
Herbert definitely warns us against blindly following any ideology. Yet, ironically, it is the leadership of one being, the God Emperor Leto who uses raw power and blind loyalty to his Golden Path to free humanity from our need to follow any ideology. I don't think he solves the problem of how human's, as social beings, remain free from tyranny. The only answer seems to come from making certain no one ever gains absolute power. Not even a God Emperor.
The Golden Path is the response to the direction humanity was going for thousands of years. Paul and Leto II followed it because they foresaw it as the only way to break humanity from the path of self destruction. It just required nearly 5000 years to develop the conditions under which the result could be achieved. So, while Leto II did become a tyrannical leader, I believe it was necessary rather than a case of complete power, corrupting completely. If you believe that they truly did have prescient foresight, they knew all along what had to happen. They just hated that billions of people had to die in order to reach the resolution.
@@TwilightxKnight13 HI Twighlight. I don't see any evidence that Leto hated his decision to follow the Golden Path. He saw it as purely necessary in a utilitarian fashion. Killing billions and enslaving everyone else was merely the price thaf needed to be paid to free humanity in the end.. Moreover, he deliberately chose to create an all female army of blind followers to achieve this goal. And he knew the achievement of the Golden Path would be the death of billions more. Yes, his ultimate goal was to create humans who would be naturally invisible to prescient sight, And to make a future that would never again follow the vision of any one human or group of humans. But the irony remains that Herbert believed that it takes a tyrant to end tyranny. Thus he fals into his own trap, believing in the "need" and even inevitability of a tyranny so the Golden Path could become a reality. As with all dystopia authors, they lack faith in humans and humanity. This is why his vision was so disliked by Tolkein. It lacks both faith in humanity, and hope based on the power of human s to defeat tyranny and evil without needing a tyrant. Thus Frodo and Aragorn and Gandalf show us how to win freedom without forsaking it first. Don't get me wrong. I love both Dune and God Emperor of Dune. They remain among my favourite books ever. But they are dystopian, just as 1984 and Bravd New World are dystopian.
I think it’s about many things, with a main theme being human evolution. The rejection of technology resulting in branches of specialized human development and reliance on drugs to enhance abilities. The insular nature of the different schools of thought and an inherent lack of trust between them. The rarity of a precious resource that has created a monopoly and power imbalances. Human adaptation to extreme conditions and the toughening of social constraints to ensure survival of the group.
In the later books (Hunters and Sandworms) there is an additional warning about how genetic manipulation and too much reliance on industry can dehumanize individuals. This is most clearly demonstrated in the Ataltoxi breeding tanks, Face Dancers and Goulas, as well as Ominus and the machines waging war.
Btw, I'd like to know if you ever tried the board games derived from this universe and if so, what's your opinion on them? If I remember well, 2 board games based on Dune exist...
You overlooked another aspect: the imperial system itself. The manner in which it results in brutal occupations and discrimination, which may have unforeseen consequences in the future. If the Fremen weren't subjected to discrimination, they wouldn't feel the need to follow any messiahs.
A recurring theme throughout all of the Dune novels is how the species responds to extremis and tyranny: It produces black swans that upset the established order.
To me the central focus is the shaping of humanity by environments, environments by humanity, and most of all humanity by itself; particularly in the form of dependences becoming established and liberated from. The interplay between the sandworm/trout/plankton species, Arrakis/Rakis and the Fremen/Museum Fremen are an object lesson in this. They depend on one another and themselves, in a way they endlessly evolves. There is a clear focus in the writing on a kind of relentlessly analytical intentionality from the characters, a disciplined will to power; along with a clear implication that this is a deliberately cultivated condition for humanity. It's most obvious in cases like mentats and Bene Gesserit but it shows up everywhere, even the Butlerian Jihad is more about preventing the unthinking nature of machine-dependent humanity, e.g. “What do such machines really do? They increase the number of things we can do without thinking. Things we do without thinking-there’s the real danger.” The Golden Path is the ultimate example of course: a grand upheaval to reshape the human condition into something that can continue to evolve and endure.
The problem is that the first Dune books have a lot of political intrigue and tension. That is what is missing. Also, Paul Atreides is almost a side character in his own story. Also, the main Jedi of the story Bene Gesserit sisterhood is not really shown fully what they are capable of.
There is no free will in the Dune universe. If even one person, like Paul, can see the future, then it is immutable. Paul himself seems to realize that he has a destiny he can't change.
Why does no one mention the obvious metaphor to oil? I read dune when I was 16 years old and immediately saw the comparison. Yet with all the many analysis of Dune, I have yet to hear/read anyone discuss this 🤔
Wouldn’t Paul’s actions be a means to a justified ends since he basically opens the door and quickens the events needed to put humanity on the first step of the Golden Path? It’s a lot tough love, but in the end the it’s what the Bene Geserit were breeding the Kwisatz Haderach for…just not how they envisioned being a part of/able to control him.
He just wrote a entertaining novel with a set of empiric truths and then let the charters make decisions. I don’t think in the following novels there were any singular goals of the novels but just an exploratory journey of the effects of those decisions not an overall lesion of life.
The Emperor of Man is our only way to glory. His vision of Science, Logic and Reasoning while banning/outlawing anything that holds us back and apart as a species is the way to go.
Even though he's not considered a savior, he actually is. His actions to start the Golden Path, carried to fruition by his son, saves mankind from extinction. So if they had not trusted Paul, mankind would have gone extinct.
It's interesting he says that his book is a warning about populism when in this case the populist has guided humanity to the golden path, away from extinction and toward flourishing. Maybe he gave the interview before he fully fleshed out the story?
When Game of Thrones went for the same overall message, I was quite surprised that audiences hated the show for it. It felt like a betrayal to them to watch their 'champion' turn bad. I suspect that those who haven't read the books may feel the exact same by the time Villeneuve's Messiah of Dune comes out. But unlike Dune, the ending of the Game of Thrones book series wasn't written yet, so they couldn't use 'argument by authority' to point out that Daenarys turning to evil was the intention all along. (Even though it was).
This is why as much as i love Dune, i prefer a more linear heroes story. A more traditional "goody" and less ambiguous protagonist. Starwars, LOTR etc. This probably stems from my own upbringing and what i believe to be a very blessed life. Two loving, monogomous parents, by all accounts a blissful marriage, beautiful children, truly brilliant inlaws, great job, fulfilling almost all of my childhood dreams, amazing friends and peace within my faith. I think this is why i am fairly black and white in morals, taste and behaviour. I totally get that it is for this very complexity that people hold Dune as their favourite.
In an age where most people assume most countries are or will become liberal capitalist democracies. Dune is a great example of how things can slip back (space feudalism).
Its about cycles of the 12 universal laws, transcending ego, and unity of masculine and feminine principals. Thats how empires are toppled and reality brought into balance. Happening on the planet as we speak. We are all the chosen. We have to integrate logic and intuition.
Dune is a warning about stagnation of the imagination. The lesson is to always question and probe deeper for understanding. Only by being curious can we as human grow and avoid stagnation and de-evolution. This is the problem with trusting leaders. Those who lead will be motivated to continue in that position and thereby stagnate progress and change. Politics and religion is the most common and effective way to promote stagnation. Political and religious leaders by definition promote and maintain a certain stagnant point of view. This is the warning from Herbert. Don’t give up your power as a thinking being to think and question.
Does power corrupt, or do the corrupt seek power? Perhaps Paul was already corrupted as soon as he sought to avenge his father and unleash a Jihad he saw coming...He knew that was the price of his vengeance but chose the path of vengeance anyway
The Dune Books are full of wisdom. Power doesn't corrupt, it attracts the corruptible. Beware jargon. Face your fears or they will climb over your back. Who's truth, in what context, modified in what way. Since every individual is accountable ultimately to the self, the formation of that self demands our utmost care and attention. ETC.
The warnings and messages are more timely now than ever. Beware of cults of personality and giving over all your critical faculties to leaders and movements. Beware of those that use religion and government to rise to power. Have a wide perspective, do not get fixated on the moment, and beware of the impact you have on the ecology of the planet - ultimately your survival depends on it. Frank Herbert was a prophet for our times and all times. If nothing else I think the new films will open his world to a new generation, and hopefully, someone will please put the Dune Encyclopedia back in print or make it available for download.
Exact that it is those very people, the decedents of Paul, that bring about the Golden Path for humanity. It might have started out as a warning against teh cult of personality, that is a bit of a red hearing given that they could clearly foresee the future and knew exactly what had to happen to free humanity of the very thing that seemed to be progressing them towards their own self destruction.
You nailed it 🎯 - DUNE is however a real possible timeline with a mythological twist. All the characters are switched and presents the TRUE chronology of our Mother Earth 🌎 - you just gotta know what your looking at
Thank you for watching this video! If you enjoy my content, please consider supporting me on PATREON: www.patreon.com/nerdcookies
Excellent analysis again NC...I would say one of the most relevant of Dune's themes today, would be the warnings against AI: the Butlerian Jihad, the banishment of any and all AI devices from the Duniverse by punishment of death (One of the Commandments of the Orange Catholic Bible: "Thou Shalt Not Make a Machine in the Likeness of a Human Mind")...and that humans were able to maximize their own internal potential once they threw off the shackles of their machine overlords....As Leto II said: "The target of the Jihad was a machine-attitude as much as the machines. Humans had set those machines to usurp our sense of beauty, our necessary selfdom out of which we make living judgments. Naturally, the machines were destroyed."
Great to see you on Friday night tights Elaine. You were wonderful.
and as far as adaptation goes, its suppose to be creativity and not pushing ones agenda into an already established IP, just because one can entertain the children with hollow, muted, uninspired seemingly all intentional spectacles and whiles also cutting out film making challenges
It's about the dangers of mindlessly trusting ANY chosen leader (cult of personality). Even one designed to be perfect.
Hit the nail on the head. Question, do you think Christianity and Judaism were considered cults before declared as religion?
Including AI!
@@streakydrip8792 Define cult. You forgot Islam in your list.
@@streakydrip8792 yes by definition
@@lynxk9372 Judaism predates the formulation of the concept "cult."
The key themes I take from his books is "Blindspots" and thinking for one's self.
When people put their faith in a charismatic leader, they stop thinking for themselves and leave themselves open to dangers in their "blindspot."
When people allowed thinking machines to make decisions for them, it first lead to wars between people using thinking machines, which then lead to the Butlerian Jihad (this was not the rise of evil AI to destroy humanity.)
When people put blind faith into supposed religious leaders, without question, they leave themselves open to dangers in their "blindspot."
Paul was written as the perfect blind spot. He was given the support of the Missionaria Protectiva, establishing a ready and willing following across the imperium -- this granted him religious authority. He was a good man, wanted the best for people, had the logical and analytical powers of a mentat, the physical perceptiveness, control, and genetic memories of all male humanity from the Bene Gesserite training, and the prescient foresight of the guild navigators. If ANYONE could be said to have the best position to lead mankind, with that wealth of past human experience, and foresight, a person like that would come close to the mark.
However, Paul was just as vulnerable to blindspots as the rest of us. Putting his faith in his prescient vision, he gave up on thinking for himself, and let himself be carried along by "destiny", effectively. He allowed himself to think he was trapped by knowing the future, and yet there were many possible futures, and many "troughs" in which his vision was clouded. He saw those areas he couldn't see in his visions as bad things, but those were opportunities.
Now, I differ with the author on the matter of religious faith, but a great many religions do fall into man-made false stories that succumb to Frank Herbert's warnings. I also differ with him on the belief in the reality of oracular sight (oracles, use of tarot to predict the future, etc), while I do believe in prophesy recorded in the Bible. I won't get into either of those things here.
Anyway, that's enough for this... and without taking much time to formulate all my thoughts on the matter.
Paul was prescient. He had no blind spot. He just couldn't stomach The Golden Path.
@@CitizenScott I don't feel like arguing this point, only to say, I hold to my original statement. There were several things Paul could not see. Prescience had its limitations. Notably at least once when Paul's life was on the line.
@@NameNotAChannel Then he wasn't truly prescient, and the Golden Path itself was a false prophecy.
This convo ends ends up getting into determinism, multiverses, metaphysics, etc., but my point is the book gives us direct access to his internal motivations, so unless Herbert is lying to us, or Paul is lying to himself, then that's the truth of it.
@@CitizenScott ... must I? The "Golden Path" was something that dipped into troughs at certain points, where it could end, but "one way" lead out of the trough to continue the path. That one path allowed for humanities continued existence in the face of the enemy that could also see the future.
To combat this enemy, the God Emperor undertook a grand breeding program to produce a genetic variant that could not be seen in prescient vision, but also could not see the future themselves (navigators could not track Paul, and Paul could not see those who were in proximity of navigators, which allowed for the plot against him in Dune Messiah...)
The Golden Path required that humans never be determined to create a single unified group that could be wiped out by a single enemy. The tyrannic rule of the God Emperor was intended to produce a genetic urge in all humans after he was gone to spread among the stars, which initiated the great scattering. Humans no longer even knew where all the other humans were in the universe.
Paul's revulsion and rejecting of the Golden Path was due to not wanting to become a worm-man hybrid as well as the injustices that would be wrought upon mankind by the God Emperor and the things he needed to do to ensure the Golden Path.
Just because he couldn't see every step along the way did not mean that the Golden Path didn't exist, or that Paul wasn't prescient... there were simply rules and limitations to prescience, which go even further, but I'm not inclined to go into it in full detail without quotes from the books, which UA-cam seems to instantly delete from comment sections.
@@NameNotAChannel Yeah man I've read the books. I know the plot. I get what you're saying. I'm talking about the logical implications.
You said, "Paul was just as vulnerable to blindspots as the rest of us." I'm saying he was not. If he was then he wouldn't be prescient, and he wouldn't be Paul. That's the point of prescience. That's the point of Paul. Ostensibly anyway.
If he truly was "just as vulnerable to blindspots as the rest of us" then he wasn't truly prescient, and everything he ever 'foresaw' must be called into question, including the Golden Path and all the suffering it caused, which may have been unnecessary.
Paul chose a course of action that created the situation he found himself in. Every choice, every action, everything before, it all leads to the present. That's how time works. That's how consequence works. That's what Dune is about.
There's no evidence to prove that Paul had to massacre bllions of people. Just his word based on his "prescience," and that of his own son the tyrant, Leto II. Without them humanity could have been fine, that is if he wasn't truly prescient.
If he was truly prescient then all of that suffering was truly necessary, which means he accurately foresaw the future, including the Golden Path he couldn't stomach, and he was not "just as vulnerable to blindspots as the rest of us."
If he was "just as vulnerable to blindspots as the rest of us" the he was not truly prescient. I could go back and forth like this forever...
I know it sounds nice to use rhetoric like, "Paul was just as vulnerable to blindspots as the rest of us," about a guy who was said to be prescient, but you can't have it both ways, amigo.
BTW Saying Paul had blindspots while also still trusting his visions seems like one heck of a blindspot if you ask me. It's almost like doing exactly what Herbert was warning about. Just sayin.
@Nerd Cookies. I saw the post on twitter about people slamming your voice. I think that’s just trolls, I think you’re doing a great job, your voice and the way you narrate and inflect in I your videos is awesome! I wasn’t really into Dune at first but these new films and your videos have sparked an interest. Looking forward to move to come!
Thank you!
@@NerdCookiesHaters just gonna hate when you use the voice.
The message i got from the books was the problems that spring from the gap between being a leader and being led. Leto pessimistically recalls how the other houses look to him for leadership as Leto the Just, knowing how that puts him in the firing line of the unjust like the Emperor and Baron. Paul likewise sees how lost some of his subjects are and how critics don't understand the choices he makes while the subjects view him as not understanding the human cost of some of his choices.
I'm always impressed by Ms Cookies writing.
The movie should have been 30 minutes longer, covering the importance of spice and the spacing guild. Neither part 1 nor 2 went into detail as to why spice was so important. I didn't quite understand the importance until watching this video. Well done !
To be fair, Dune is so concentrated and complex, you could make it into a 15-hour miniseries and still have to leave things out. Though I agree there are some fundamental ideas from the story that almost require exposition into order for the viewer to understand if they have not read the books. That one thing I think the 1984 version did better. Granted narrated exposition is a weak form of storytelling, sometimes it is the best way to churn through background material so you can tell the story with some frame of reference. If the '84 version failed it was that it did not clearly explain that the emperor's daughter is a historian. In that case it makes the exposition more tolerable.
I personally believe Villeneuve should have taken Herbert's example and done the adaption as a Trilogy; *Dune* [Bildungs Roman], *Mudad'Dib* [integrating into the Fremen], *Prophet* [Mahdi leads the Fremen to Victory]. Each of 2 hours or more.
"For the Imperium, spice is used by the navigators of the Spacing Guild to find safe paths between the stars. Without spice, interstellar travel is impossible, making it by far the most valuable substance in the universe."
Literally 5 minutes into Part One.
New subscriber found you on FNT, you explain the subject matter so well.Looking forward to all your future videos.
I read dune when I was 15 and it blew me away. It was 1965 and I had no idea what an ecologist was not to mention a planetary one! I think your analysis is spot on. How interesting how prophetic some science fiction can be.
I'm really hoping with Dune Messiah that the Spacing Guild will be given it's due course.
We will at least see Eddric
I could listen to everything you say. All day. I love Dune and I love your voice. Please tell me it's your real voice. Great job with these essays. I've been watching a binge worth already. Cheers.
I learn almost as much thru reading the comments as I do listening to the actual videos, love the sci-fi community on UA-cam
You are my go to person for SCI-FI news. Thanks Elaine.
The warnings from Dune are chilling and disturbing but utterly utterly necessary.
Black Adam is about Thoth and there are Muslim people,Dune movie Mahdi is about Thoth returning to free his people but its actually Enki returning and some will fight against him because they are programmed and only late do they figure out he is not evil and then comes the true Satan Enlil.
As always, wonderful video.
I've been in awe of Dune since I first read it decades ago. Just my opinion, of course, but I have been struck by the care he put into the texture and world building.
The lesson is that we shouldn't blindly follow charismatic leaders. But the Fremen culture had been manipulated to the degree that the individuals in the current day (Stilgar, Chani, and even Kynes) weren't blindly following anything. They were making clear, sensible choices given their situation.
To be clear, I'm not arguing against the conclusion or that it was what Herbert intended. I'm just fascinated at the work, the skill and effort he put into setting up the situation so that characters could observe, reason, and decide the way they did.
As Thufir would say "plans within plans within plans."
I got to watch Dune 2 last night in IMAX and it was great! The movie, the cinematography, acting, we're all great. But the thing I loved about Dune 2 was that it kept Frank's original message. It hammer's it home pretty good and theme is pretty prevalent. Yes, they did change some characters, timelines, and scenes from the book, but the message is still there.
It didn’t. At all. It failed completely. Have you even read the book?
@n8_b_h yeah I have. If you want to sit through an 8 hour movie to get the point across and get every little detail and character story knock yourself out.
@@bber45 it’s not a length issue. It’s a narrative and character issue. He ruined the story and the characters. 5 hours in two movies is plenty to adhere to the themes, narrative and characters. Don’t hide behind the length to justify the madness is the script.
@@n8_b_hVery true. The glaring change is Chani's negative attitude towards Paul in the second half. Certainly she was not happy about his decision to take the emperor's daughter as his wife, but by then she was completely committed to him both as the messiah and her lover. Her children are the linchpin of the ongoing story and to make her seemingly hate Paul deviates too far from the source material. If there is an adaptation of Messiah, he will have to force manipulate Chani into staying with Paul so that she can bare his children. I just do not see how that is plausible given the way he has portrayed her.
@@TwilightxKnight13 Chani in the book is too submissive in my opinion, she never questions Paul and her concerns get dismissed by Paul all the time. She's just there for him and only for him. Not sure if the Chani in the movie is better but I think it's more real
Great video, people tend to gloss over the multiple layers of subtext and parallels with our own history. 👏
So good to see you on FNT today. Hope you appear more often. Love the artwork you use in your Dune videos. I'm seeing the movie on Imax on Sunday and can't wait.
You are my go to source for SciFI stuff. I tell all about how good you are. Thank You, Keep Up the Awesome work!
As always, terrific video and analysis.
I have my reserved seat for an IMAX showing on Sunday. Also, just preordered the 4K steelbook today. Looking forward to multiple viewings in my home theater.
SO Good to see you on FNT! Keep up the great videos!
Good job. Excellent. I think you hit the nail on the head. This is coming from a boomer who probably read the original three books of the saga about three times before most of you were born. Herbert was just holding a mirror up to humanity. He had first hand experience of the second World War. Hitler. Stalin. Mussolini. Roosevelt. So he knew of what he wrote. I think he had hope, but not much faith that humanity would change in the future because, I mean, let's face it. Humans have never been so good at anything throughout history as making war and killing other humans. For some reason, it seems to be one of our most basic urges. Imagine if we make it long enough to spread out through the universe. And your right, this message does seem to be much more urgent today than at any other time that I can remember. Oh well. We all end up in the same way sooner or later.
Lol wow. What a depressing glass half full view. "What humanity does best is war". Really? How come historically we have less wars, less ppl die in battles and the greatest growth, sustainability and longevity EVER?
Instead of reading so many times the same Sci-Fi books, you should read some history books buddy. Lol, how sad. Hope you find something in your life to change your life view to glass half full
@@captnwinkle partner, don't pretend to know me from reading one single post because you don't. you have to know that your personal opinion, doesn't mean a thing to me. I don't know you. I don't care to know you. So do me a favor, keep your personal opinions about me, a person you do not know from Adam, to yourself. Thank you.
@@BruceMusto He's right though. Your dark view of humanity is incorrect. Things are always improving.
@@SELECT289 Really? What makes you think that?
@@captnwinkle what world are you living in?
“As I emerged from the ruins of love, I found myself lost in Dune, a wanderer in search of meaning across its endless dunes.”
I saw the new movie last night. I didn’t think it was as good as part one. They changed too much and tried to pull the main themes from the whole series into the first story and made the whole thing fall flat. I think there is a reason the 3 part story arc is used the realizations of what paul has done is not know and understood until later in the series and I think the changes made to the story sort of limits its ability to continue without more significant changes. I wished for more.
I agree
But I think Dune 1 is one of the best movies I’ve ever seen
The 2nd one I can’t even properly rate it, because I couldn’t detach my brain from the book .. I need to watch it again
And I gotta let go of my dislike of Zendaya 🤣
Just got out of the movie and Holy sh*******t! Beautiful! Stunning!
Great insight as always, way to hang in FNT, gary tends to let people just talk over each other but you got your best stuff through.
The problem I have with the Villeneuve's movies is that he inserted Herbert's later message, warning about blind faith in charismatic leaders, into the adaptations of the first book, which largely didn't contain that message.
The first book, on its own, is largely a classic hero's journey, filled with all the common hero and villain tropes, and the classic revenge tale. The "warnings" that Paul sees for potential catastrophe for the paths he sees haven't happened yet, and were barely mentioned in contrast to the other text of the book, especially as Paul's visions are showing him multiple timelines and possibilities. The Fremen galactic war hasn't happened yet, and it wasn't set in stone. The first book didn't focus on this message/warning, and inserting it into the movies covering the first book is a mistake. Different books (and movies), even by the same author, and in the same universe, can have different messages. Having Dune be a classic hero's journey isn't antithetical to the messages of the later books.
In fact, I think Herbert's warning about charismatic leaders has more impact precisely because the reader is duped just as much as the Fremen by Paul in the first book. He didn't do anything inherently wrong, he just couldn't see a way out from the path he was following, leading to the profound consequences of it, but his followers, through blind faith and a manipulated religion (from the Bene Geserit), and their own sense of superiority, caused the slaughter of billions. I'd argue that Herbert's warning, whether intended or not, is more directed at the blind followers of charismatic leaders, rather than the leaders themselves.
The even greater mistake in Villeneuve's movies is that he gave this message/warning to Chani, who was supposed to be one of Paul's greatest supporters, so much so that she bared 3 of his children, the latter 2 requiring a dangerous process which ultimately killed her. The Fremen, in Herbert's works, are an incredibly pragmatic people. If Chani, or any of the other Fremen, knew Paul was manipulating them, they'd have warned their sietch and killed him on the spot. Having the mother of his 3 children become his most vocal critic completely ruins Chani, and all the subsequent books which rely upon their children.
I couldn't have written my comment any better, you are correct on all fronts. Dune, as it was written, is a hero's journey story. I believe Herbert did say he was unhappy people weren't getting the beware your chosen leaders theme enough which was his inspiration to create Dune Messiah, which if read as an epilogue to Dune, does change that two book story to the theme he wanted to emphasise.
This comes to the second point about, which in my opinion, the character who we as the audience are supposed to see this conflict in faith/leadership is Stilgar, which again develops throughout Dune Messiah and Children of Dune. The changes they made to Chani were completely unnecessary and completely destroy the spirit of her character from this book in particular and any future ones they wish to adapt into this film series. Chani was the only abomination I saw in this film.
The Dune parts 1 and 2 films are beautiful, and in many respects I couldn't be happier with the final product, however this destruction to Chani's character adds way to much unnecessary time trying to explore this fallacy of the leader theme took away run time better used on other characters.
@eamonnholland5343 Brilliantly stated.
Good points
yeap villeneuve is a craptastic character director.
I think from Denis Villeneuves perspective he's adapting Messiah as the 3rd movie in a trilogy and in order to drive home these points in that movie it needs to be set up now. It cant come out of nowhere.
Frank Herbert actually has an hour long interview on UA-cam where he goes into the whole thing and why and how he decided to write it. I urge everyone to start there.
Got the link?
I just saw Denis Villeneuve's Dune tonight; the movie doesn't disappoint and I can't wait to see if the movie wins the Oscar? I was so hopeful for the movie, but upon seeing the movie, I was left profoundly saddened by the ending. In Villeneuve's adaptation two things become abundantly clear. While Paul becomes the Emperor of the Known Universe; the other Great Houses refuse to acknowledge him Emperor directly causing the Jihad! The other sadder ending was that Paul and Chani; while you hoped and prayed that they'd become a ruling couple. Paul marries Princess Irulan and Chani abandons Paul and summons a worm to leave back to the remains of the southern Sietch. Thus, Frank Herbert's warning about Charismatic leaders causing more problems than they ultimately solve.
The movie is powerful in IMAX! Now I want to see Part I and Part II both done in IMAX!
Exactly. Villeneuve has painted himself into a corner with his interpretation of Lady Jessica and Chani's relationship with Paul. He is going to have to deviate significantly from the subsequent source material or he's going to have to force the relationships back to where Herbert wrote them, neither of which will honor the source material or be believable. While the imagery and "blockbuster" quality of the films were entertaining, anyone who is familiar with the books and the essence of the story cannot possibly be pleased with the interpretation that was shown on screen.
Found you because of FNT! I hope you make it to their upcoming GoT talks. Great stuff
Great work, as always!
That is a very good take on the Major themes of Dune. I say themes because obviously the dangers of charismatic leaders and messianic figures is one of the major themes of the Books. I would say one major theme is the question and exploration of what being able to see the possible futures would be? What is the cost of the prescience? Do we see a single linear strand of time or multiple possibilities? And if they are multiple, can we affect the future with our knowledge about it, or are we controlled by the future? Do events have their own weight that pull us towards them? And what even a minuscule change in behavior or a change of spoken word may cause in any moment and how that causes after effects that change the future. That is after all the great personal struggle Paul goes through the entire book and is the reason for some of his greatest decisions and choices. And it practically destroys him. And informs the rest of the story in additional books.
Then there are additional themes woven around the major ones, such as the issue of genetic memory which plays a bigger part in the Messiah and Children.
And then its fortunately solved and abandoned as a major theme when Leto comes along. Although it lingers. (never liked that shift towards that problem in the books myself, because it only served to create awful boring repetitions of things we already went through and figured out before, to put it in very light spoiler terms)
The new movie (just saw it) takes one of the themes, particularly the dangers of religious fanaticism and makes it its major and practically the only theme.
But the script that replaced all the cut out other major features, whole factions and themes of the story suffers from several large inconsistencies, often feels disjointed, rushed and incomplete.
It's about Madame Web and how good and deep that movie really is
"It's webbing time!"
- madam web
always great content
Choosing the path of least resistance is truly one of the banes of existence. It ultimately only leads to greater suffering. Good lesson to learn from.
Thanks Elaine
As grim as the theme is, the series has always uplifted me because it shows humanity is still around after 20K or so years. I am personally not so optimistic as to our immediate future. 😒
More of a meta theme emphasized in the first book:
“It is the slow knife that kills.”
That in the universe which is the biggest threat may not be noticed until it is too late. One must be quick to respond but do so with careful planning to counter the unfolding threat.
I went to see it yesterday..Its on a scale like no other movie I have ever seen..I have to agree with you on your last video spoiler about how Jessica is portraying herself as an antagonist, and the connection between Paul and Chani is so disconnected, and Gurney playing his instrument was so underwhelming..they should have just let that part out.. I want to go see it now at an imax theater...way better that than the part 1
I doubt it would happen, but more movies going further into the Dune books would be fun to see. I want to see general audience reaction with what Paul later becomes as a leader and what the Atreides will end up doing well past him. The first Dune book and movies set Paul up to be a clear, favorable protagonist. Someone a lot of people can easily root for. Taking the throne was the easy part. We will then see the test of Paul's character and competency as ruler.
The start of the second book already paints a stark picture. But if you recall how Paul got his base of power and what sort of followers he acquired, the fervor he instills in them, it's not surprising. And of course, what happens with the Fremen that got him to power to begin with.
always great content...
I think that beneath the critique of the trust-worthiness of various forms of power,
lies the more fundamental danger stemming from the individual's unwillingness to accept responsibility for themselves, their life, and their choices.
While ever we refuse to accept that responsibility, we will unconsciously be drawn to ways of slipping that burden.
This is what makes us vulnerable to others; while others are made vulnerable to the corruption that comes from the power we give them.
Love the book. I think the lesson of Dune is that you can create a leader but you can not control the outcome of their actions.
True, though I think the perspective is more from the position of the leader. You can cultivate a great leader, but THEY cannot control the actions of their followers once their ideology takes hold. Kind of a depiction of the warning "be careful what you ask for, you might get it."
Billions died but now we're on the golden path
Elaine,you’re definitely on the top of your game with this most recent entry,Bravo!!! we’re seeing the author’s warnings playing right before our eyes in this country’s and planet’s current predicament 🤔
Thanks as usual X what happens to Caladan when Paul goes berserk?
Caladan is deemed a holy site , gurney is. Named Earl of Caladan, but Jessica is its regent. It becomes a sanctuary world for the nobility. Beaten by Paul. And a bg school. Jessica runs.
Paul inherited guide prime . Gives it to gurney as well , and grand generational project to colonise it , to purge it of harkonnen influences, and pollution. Its really a hell world. The people of Caladan gradually turn make it more green and free it's people from oppression. .
Caladan is very much like it was when leto ruled, all that was maintained.
It remains a semi paradise world , but richer ( Castle Caladan becomes a dort of small bg school. )
Although during this jihad Paul enemies plan to destroy it , and let's just say he doesn't take thst well . ( and he knows they plan to do it before they get the chance to do it ) .
I would theorize that the Bene Gesserit is doubly responsible for its own demise : it created a lineage of charismatic leaders using its genetic program as they want to place their Kwizatch Haderach as ffuture Emperor, and alos they created the conditions of the Fremen Jihad through the Missionaria Protectiva : the two plots collided with catastrophic consequences.
The worse for the Bene Gesserit, as hinted during Paul's meeting with RM Gaius Helen Mohiam, and more clearly in the Appendix, is that the Bene Gesserit had lost the very reason of their own existence, just seeking power for power, and later forcing Leto II to assume their role as guide for mankind.
Reading the 5-8 books totally changed my opinion on the sisterhood to the point that I forgot how much I hated them at the beginning.
@stefbeg Excellent point but I think you go a step too far. My understanding of the Missionaria Protectiva is that it is a seeding program and escape mechanism for Bene Gesserit's in potentially useful/dangerous societies. It is not one size fits all ("They planted that one here! Aiee, this must be a terrible place."), and does not have a pre-determined end point. The collision of that prophetic seed and a Kwisatch Hadderach arrived before his time and outside of the control of the Sisterhood was an unanticipated intersection.
The BG never died out...according to the later books even after the BG merged with the Honored Matres, a breakaway faction of BG escaped...no doubt because they also felt the original BG mission became corrupted, once they took in the HM...Jessica herself said to Thufir, regarding the Bene Gesserit, "We truly exist only to serve"
These cookies are still fresh!
Where did you find the name of the Star Drive?
I’ve never read the books nor heard about dune until I watched Dune 1 on Amazon prime . The movie was so good, I purchased digital and watched about 4 times. When I heard dune 2 was releasing, I wet my pants . Both movies are great , I just watched dune 2 today on Amazon prime and I watched when it first released in March . I want to read the books
I think a big message to be taken is "be careful what you wish for." The Bene Gesserit wanted an ubermensch, the Fremen a messiah, the Harkonnen the Atreides to be gone. They all got what they wanted, and it destroys them in the end.
I wish the new movie depicted the Space Navigators Guild. Boo
@@mickrozycki451 Mentioned. Never seen.
They had better show the Spacing Guild and at least one Guild Navigator if they make Dune Messiah. The plot between the Bene Gesserit, Princess Irulan, the Tleilaxu, the Ixians and the Guild by need must at least show Edrich.
@@mickrozycki451 Dune 1986 version had Space Navigators Guild
“Plans within plans” sums it up
Layers upon layers, like cogs in a machine... some individually important, others (like Duncan’s saga) way more important... and not.
Politics, religion... the story is not linear enough to make such small claims.
In reality it is amazing how so many thru the ages have become such big fans of this.
Tolkien’s saga is simple in comparison, and if you made Sargon any more complexity people would quit... or perhaps not he he.
@@mickrozycki451 to some extent you are right. Without the many Gholahs of Duncan, the story would not work.
Love the background art , where is it from?
Funny how the title suggests that Cookie hasn't been dissecting this franchise to death in previous videos
I've always felt that the best sci-fi remains timeless and/or relevant going forward because the author has a good grasp of human nature... which is a theme usually at the core of most good works of sci-fi. These works become relevant again and again going forward because people (as history has repeatedly shown) tend to make the same mistakes or fall into the same patterns.
Herbert definitely warns us against blindly following any ideology. Yet, ironically, it is the leadership of one being, the God Emperor Leto who uses raw power and blind loyalty to his Golden Path to free humanity from our need to follow any ideology. I don't think he solves the problem of how human's, as social beings, remain free from tyranny. The only answer seems to come from making certain no one ever gains absolute power. Not even a God Emperor.
The Golden Path is the response to the direction humanity was going for thousands of years. Paul and Leto II followed it because they foresaw it as the only way to break humanity from the path of self destruction. It just required nearly 5000 years to develop the conditions under which the result could be achieved. So, while Leto II did become a tyrannical leader, I believe it was necessary rather than a case of complete power, corrupting completely. If you believe that they truly did have prescient foresight, they knew all along what had to happen. They just hated that billions of people had to die in order to reach the resolution.
@@TwilightxKnight13 HI Twighlight. I don't see any evidence that Leto hated his decision to follow the Golden Path. He saw it as purely necessary in a utilitarian fashion. Killing billions and enslaving everyone else was merely the price thaf needed to be paid to free humanity in the end.. Moreover, he deliberately chose to create an all female army of blind followers to achieve this goal. And he knew the achievement of the Golden Path would be the death of billions more.
Yes, his ultimate goal was to create humans who would be naturally invisible to prescient sight, And to make a future that would never again follow the vision of any one human or group of humans. But the irony remains that Herbert believed that it takes a tyrant to end tyranny. Thus he fals into his own trap, believing in the "need" and even inevitability of a tyranny so the Golden Path could become a reality.
As with all dystopia authors, they lack faith in humans and humanity. This is why his vision was so disliked by Tolkein. It lacks both faith in humanity, and hope based on the power of human s to defeat tyranny and evil without needing a tyrant. Thus Frodo and Aragorn and Gandalf show us how to win freedom without forsaking it first.
Don't get me wrong. I love both Dune and God Emperor of Dune. They remain among my favourite books ever. But they are dystopian, just as 1984 and Bravd New World are dystopian.
Good explanation 👍
Genuinely in love with you based on your voice and scifi choices alone
I think it’s about many things, with a main theme being human evolution. The rejection of technology resulting in branches of specialized human development and reliance on drugs to enhance abilities. The insular nature of the different schools of thought and an inherent lack of trust between them. The rarity of a precious resource that has created a monopoly and power imbalances. Human adaptation to extreme conditions and the toughening of social constraints to ensure survival of the group.
just watched you on friday night fights....sub instantly...love ya voice!
Another great episode, and many thanks! 👍 What would I add as another warning? _Don't do drugs, mmmkay. Drugs are bad. So don't do them, mmmkay?_
In the later books (Hunters and Sandworms) there is an additional warning about how genetic manipulation and too much reliance on industry can dehumanize individuals. This is most clearly demonstrated in the Ataltoxi breeding tanks, Face Dancers and Goulas, as well as Ominus and the machines waging war.
Btw, I'd like to know if you ever tried the board games derived from this universe and if so, what's your opinion on them? If I remember well, 2 board games based on Dune exist...
You overlooked another aspect: the imperial system itself. The manner in which it results in brutal occupations and discrimination, which may have unforeseen consequences in the future. If the Fremen weren't subjected to discrimination, they wouldn't feel the need to follow any messiahs.
My biggest gripe with Villeneuve’s Dune series is that it’s like he completely forgot about the spice and its importance.
A recurring theme throughout all of the Dune novels is how the species responds to extremis and tyranny: It produces black swans that upset the established order.
Have you read the Expanse?
How did the Fremen cope with shields when not on Arrakis?
Dune is a cautionary testimony of how even a benevolent rule by elites can lead very great suffering.
To me the central focus is the shaping of humanity by environments, environments by humanity, and most of all humanity by itself; particularly in the form of dependences becoming established and liberated from.
The interplay between the sandworm/trout/plankton species, Arrakis/Rakis and the Fremen/Museum Fremen are an object lesson in this. They depend on one another and themselves, in a way they endlessly evolves.
There is a clear focus in the writing on a kind of relentlessly analytical intentionality from the characters, a disciplined will to power; along with a clear implication that this is a deliberately cultivated condition for humanity. It's most obvious in cases like mentats and Bene Gesserit but it shows up everywhere, even the Butlerian Jihad is more about preventing the unthinking nature of machine-dependent humanity, e.g. “What do such machines really do? They increase the number of things we can do without thinking. Things we do without thinking-there’s the real danger.” The Golden Path is the ultimate example of course: a grand upheaval to reshape the human condition into something that can continue to evolve and endure.
The problem is that the first Dune books have a lot of political intrigue and tension. That is what is missing. Also, Paul Atreides is almost a side character in his own story. Also, the main Jedi of the story Bene Gesserit sisterhood is not really shown fully what they are capable of.
There is no free will in the Dune universe. If even one person, like Paul, can see the future, then it is immutable. Paul himself seems to realize that he has a destiny he can't change.
My Favorite is Paul's hand with the ring.
Why does no one mention the obvious metaphor to oil? I read dune when I was 16 years old and immediately saw the comparison. Yet with all the many analysis of Dune, I have yet to hear/read anyone discuss this 🤔
Wouldn’t Paul’s actions be a means to a justified ends since he basically opens the door and quickens the events needed to put humanity on the first step of the Golden Path? It’s a lot tough love, but in the end the it’s what the Bene Geserit were breeding the Kwisatz Haderach for…just not how they envisioned being a part of/able to control him.
" Power Attracts the Corruptible ! " - Frank Herbert
5:29 . . . Alice's smoking caterpillar ? 🚬
On a deeper level, DUNE is about:
If a foreign entity can become a messiah to the freemen who are linked to spice production [cash cow]
I haven't seen the second movie, but I've seen the Mini series. I hope it doesn't just look good.
He just wrote a entertaining novel with a set of empiric truths and then let the charters make decisions. I don’t think in the following novels there were any singular goals of the novels but just an exploratory journey of the effects of those decisions not an overall lesion of life.
The Emperor of Man is our only way to glory. His vision of Science, Logic and Reasoning while banning/outlawing anything that holds us back and apart as a species is the way to go.
Don't let our hopes deceive us!
Even though he's not considered a savior, he actually is. His actions to start the Golden Path, carried to fruition by his son, saves mankind from extinction. So if they had not trusted Paul, mankind would have gone extinct.
what is WB's d00n about?
cos it seems to be nothing like the books i read
Spice = Oil, and I think it’s obvious. The Baron even bathes/heals in the metaphor.
It's interesting he says that his book is a warning about populism when in this case the populist has guided humanity to the golden path, away from extinction and toward flourishing. Maybe he gave the interview before he fully fleshed out the story?
When Game of Thrones went for the same overall message, I was quite surprised that audiences hated the show for it. It felt like a betrayal to them to watch their 'champion' turn bad. I suspect that those who haven't read the books may feel the exact same by the time Villeneuve's Messiah of Dune comes out. But unlike Dune, the ending of the Game of Thrones book series wasn't written yet, so they couldn't use 'argument by authority' to point out that Daenarys turning to evil was the intention all along. (Even though it was).
This is why as much as i love Dune, i prefer a more linear heroes story. A more traditional "goody" and less ambiguous protagonist. Starwars, LOTR etc. This probably stems from my own upbringing and what i believe to be a very blessed life. Two loving, monogomous parents, by all accounts a blissful marriage, beautiful children, truly brilliant inlaws, great job, fulfilling almost all of my childhood dreams, amazing friends and peace within my faith. I think this is why i am fairly black and white in morals, taste and behaviour. I totally get that it is for this very complexity that people hold Dune as their favourite.
Paul saw all the possible outcomes and chose the one with the least suffering.
So I guess he is not that bad
Message to me was don’t get worms. In the long run they cause nothing but trouble
Paradise cannot be achieved without balancing the scales of life and death and respecting their place as plains of existence.
In an age where most people assume most countries are or will become liberal capitalist democracies. Dune is a great example of how things can slip back (space feudalism).
Its about cycles of the 12 universal laws, transcending ego, and unity of masculine and feminine principals. Thats how empires are toppled and reality brought into balance. Happening on the planet as we speak. We are all the chosen. We have to integrate logic and intuition.
Dune is a warning about stagnation of the imagination. The lesson is to always question and probe deeper for understanding. Only by being curious can we as human grow and avoid stagnation and de-evolution. This is the problem with trusting leaders. Those who lead will be motivated to continue in that position and thereby stagnate progress and change. Politics and religion is the most common and effective way to promote stagnation. Political and religious leaders by definition promote and maintain a certain stagnant point of view. This is the warning from Herbert. Don’t give up your power as a thinking being to think and question.
Power corrupts, no matter the reasoning behind it.
Does power corrupt, or do the corrupt seek power? Perhaps Paul was already corrupted as soon as he sought to avenge his father and unleash a Jihad he saw coming...He knew that was the price of his vengeance but chose the path of vengeance anyway
The Dune Books are full of wisdom. Power doesn't corrupt, it attracts the corruptible. Beware jargon. Face your fears or they will climb over your back. Who's truth, in what context, modified in what way. Since every individual is accountable ultimately to the self, the formation of that self demands our utmost care and attention. ETC.
The spice must flow.
The warnings and messages are more timely now than ever.
Beware of cults of personality and giving over all your critical faculties to leaders and movements.
Beware of those that use religion and government to rise to power.
Have a wide perspective, do not get fixated on the moment, and beware of the impact you have on the ecology of the planet - ultimately your survival depends on it.
Frank Herbert was a prophet for our times and all times. If nothing else I think the new films will open his world to a new generation, and hopefully, someone will please put the Dune Encyclopedia back in print or make it available for download.
Exact that it is those very people, the decedents of Paul, that bring about the Golden Path for humanity. It might have started out as a warning against teh cult of personality, that is a bit of a red hearing given that they could clearly foresee the future and knew exactly what had to happen to free humanity of the very thing that seemed to be progressing them towards their own self destruction.
You nailed it 🎯
- DUNE is however a real possible timeline with a mythological twist.
All the characters are switched and presents the TRUE chronology of our Mother Earth 🌎
- you just gotta know what your looking at
I think Dune part two is the greatest film ever made.
Wasn't there also an environmental message and running out of water?