The 7 levels of meaning in Frank Herbert's DUNE
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- Опубліковано 29 тра 2024
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what a criminally underappreciated channel. I am of course a Dune fan and discovered this video as a result, but will be checking out the catalogue of previous videos. Thank you for the thought provoking content, Damien.
Great video and insightful analysis. For me one of the most incredible themes of the Dune series is the influence that Jung's ideas had on the concept of ancestral memories, the battle of multiple personas within the individual creating compartmentalised and conflicting actions
and the 8th level, a warning against following the charismatic messiah
Watch the video.
Actually I think you’ll find Game of Thrones doesn’t have seven seasons.
The show ran for four of the best seasons of television ever depicted and then mysteriously stopped.
Five.
Arrakis teaches the attitude of the knife - chopping off what's incomplete and saying: 'Now, it's complete because it's ended here.
@@DamienWalter not unfair.
@DamienWalter It stopped at 6 season. Unknown as to why it didn't continue.
But a really cool prequel show is out.
I'm from the future. Dune was a masterpiece. Robbed at Oscars
I thought the TV adaptation was more than just okayy. I have read all 6 books like 7 times, maybe more. It was a great series and the actors really did a great job. And it is far beyond Star Wars. It is a great study in politics.
I think another nod to Foundation was in Children of Dune when a teacher is mentioned who tries to understand Paul's prophetic ability through mathematics, as in Hari Seldon's Pyscho-history.
Just to say that Joseph Campbell wrote about the Hero’s Journey, Carl Jung first wrote about the Hero Archetype as an unconscious process we are all subjected to. This, I think, is an explanation for why it looks Frank Herbert wrote about in “hero’s journey” terms…
Good points. I would think that the ancient Greeks, especially Euripides, Sophocles, etc., wrote about those archetypes long before Jung.
@@joeycarter8846
Wrote ABOUT them ?
Or simply used them ?
Great analysis of Dune!😊 I liked how you broke it down. Having read the original Frank Herbert books I can agree with most of your analysis, with one exception: how Arrakis as a planet interacted with the life that live on it. Many times Herbert speaks of how Dune shaped the Fremen. It is also spoken how life, the worms, shaped the planet. A balanced dance where one leads the other. Tip the scales and you have chaos. The empire had a similar balance in the CHOAM, the Landsraad, and emperor. Paul upset that balance and Leto II spent a millennium to correct.
Herbert saw ecology as "the science of understanding consequences." This is why every single aspect at every single level of the story is so complex. He basically hacked causality.
Yes, Herbert states clearly in a televised interview that he was "deep into" Carl Jung as he wrote. Reading Dune for the first time 55 years ago I sensed this psychological depth in Herbert's writing, and now having been a psychologist for 35 years, and deeply influenced by Jung, I can see his ideas woven into the complete fabric of the Dune world. I don't have the time to describe these many layers now, but I will say how powerful it was to encounter the Dark Feminine, as exemplified by the Bene Gesserit, which was somewhat courageous on Herbert's part--in a world that wants only a Beatific Mary, who has no Shadow.
Of all the houses or tribes depicted in the Dune universe, I have been most fascinated by the Mentats and the Bene Gesserit. The Mentats for their supreme capacity to analyze and form insights based on recorded data, or the textual information on hand. Whereas the BG are masters of the same capabilities but focused mainly on the "unrecorded" or contextual information. Somehow, it has always left me in awe that Herbert ended up designating the Mentats to be mostly men and the Bene Gesserits to be exclusively women.
Even as a young (Catholic) teenager then it has never escaped me when I first read Dune 30+ years ago that the almighty all-female BG order was brilliantly nuanced and a truly groundbreaking depiction of power precisely because of its wickedly irreverent depiction of powerful women.
@@10Shun Yes, yes, yes to your last paragraph. And interesting take otherwise. I think of your divisions as also being between head and body, Mental and Sister. And I would put it more as traditionally Masculine/Feminine, realizing that Masculine describes mostly men and Feminine, women, but knowing that gender doesn''t always match with anatomy. With Herbert we are talking about archetypes, not the real world. And in this way of looking at it, the Bene Gesserit are so afraid of the Kwizatz Haderach because he alone as a male is able to enter their realm of knowing. More to say on this, but I have to pay the bills.
My universe has aligned and brought me to this channel. Your masterpiece on the allegory and meaning of Blade Runner 2049 pulled the algorithm my way and I watched that first, and now having watched this video essay on Dune, I know I'm amongst my tribe. Joined the FB group and subbed to the podcast, I will be supporting this channel. Excited to be here with you all. Outstanding work and insights, Damien. And also superb additions to the conversation from others in the comments. I hope to contribute as well in the future. Top shelf intelligent discussion and commentary are a very welcome find. Another oasis in the desert of the real.
Thank you Josh. There's a lot happening to grow the channel this year so I'm happy to have tribe brothers aboard.
Damien Walter you are GREAT! I'm glad to discover you. Thank you so much for the profound explanation you did here.Best wishes for you from Bucharest, Romania. Costin
your text intro is superb
-----------------------------------------
The ancient Greeks divided culture into 2 halves.
The Mythos was the stories. Of Gods and monsters and heroes of old.
The Logos was the knowledge. The logic, reason and facts of the matter.
Science fiction is unique because it joins Logos with Mythos.
Science. With fiction.
The great works of science fiction…Asimov’s Foundation saga, Le Guin’s Hainish cycle, Gibson’s Sprawl trilogy, every single book by Octavia Butler, the works of Delany, Atwood, Heinlein, Banks, Stephenson…
…and a relatively short list of true science fiction greats, are great because they unify high concepts with narrative craft to create stories that both Inform and Transform us as readers.
There is none greater than Frank Herbert’s DUNE. In this video essay made as part of my course Writing the 21st Century Myth I analyse the 7 levels of meaning in DUNE to understand its enduring power as a work of science fiction.
Brilliant overview and analysis, as well as choice of venue, sir
Thank you. It's a Buddhist shrine near where I live. Always wanted to shoot there, seemed like the right topic.
Fuck that’s SO COOL.
Glad you got permission. Very, incredibly apropos location for this kind of thing. Great job.
_Ruqya_ is “killing words” from the Quran that are used to kill rebellious jinn. Such an amazing translation of an everyday practice converted into fictional technology.
I know nothing about Dune and just wanted to find out if it was a story that I would like, and you pulled me in instantly!
I love the way you talk and how you approached the different topics in this video. So glad I found your channel
One of the few people who really understood the mind of Frank Herbert
Binging on your series since finding it a few days ago. According to Paul Stametz, Herbert was an expert on magic mushrooms. He was apparently flyin' high on them when he wrote Dune. Thus the weirdness of the story.
So glad I found this channel! Will recomend this EVERYWHERE 🤯🤩
Excellent analysis. Concise. High hopes for Villeneuve's adaptation.
Interesting the Buddhist and other Asian imagery and Tibetan bells in the soundtrack, whilst discussing the Catholic and Islamic influence on Frank Herbert's work. The barefoot sage image fits you man - it's very enticing....
Ha! Thanks. I just happen to live next to this shrine ;)
He was definitely aware of the Hero's Journey because he set out to subvert that trope. Joseph Campbell refused to publish Herbert's work that sent him.
It usually takes at LEAST an hour for someone in a UA-cam video to impress me with Dune talk. You pulled in off in well under a third of that time. Well done.
Wow, your channel is absolutely awesome! Hope it will grow fast!
A great book of layered and layered intricacies and plots within plots. Read and think.
What a great video, besides the content and analysis, very appreciated the way it's filmed and edited. Thank you
There are a few unique elements of Dune that were partially covered in this assessment when considering sci-fi stories in general:
1.) Time and Humanity: The Dune saga is foremost a story of humanity, the timeline stretches millennia. Seeds sewn thousands of years ago bear fruit throughout the books, and even beyond. Empires rise and fall, and throughout it all there are no signs of other intelligent civilizations. The story isn't just about what humanity is, but what it could become in all its complexity.
2.) Technology: Unlike other sci-fis with fantastical technologies being the forefront of the story with humanity remaining the same, Dune has its own plethora of advanced tools and vehicles, but humanity has greatly advanced its own mental and physical capabilities instead. Technology has also taken a backseat to emphasize the story and characters, has its own limitations, and is used by the characters with a sense of normalcy, just as we act with our own present-day tech. Despite all this, the details and capabilities of technology in the Dune saga is no less impressive or awe inspiring in detail and scale.
3.) Human Advancement: With humanity specialized into various casts, we get the extremes of personality, influence, physiology and physical/mental capabilities. The voids left in technological computation have given greater emphasis on humans' own abilities and professions to serve to the best of their ability. People of power have greater responsibility and influence over others, and overall the concept of attaining it through training and willpower is at the forefront of the hierarchal system just as much as traditional symbols of power like resources or technology are.
4.) Perception and Prophecy: In Dune one of the greatest physiological advancements and conditioning humanity can attain is enhanced perception. With greater ability to uncover knowledge comes greater understanding and capability, with information as a weapon, Paul was able to bring a galaxy-wide empire to its knees, but was also able to see the terrible future that lay before him; a form of power wholly unique to Dune (and adapted into concepts like "the force" from Star Wars that we take for granted today). Throughout the saga since the beginning the reader gets glimpses of the future through prescience and prophesy long ago, reinforcing Point 1 and 3. Time and its effect on humanity, and the human advancement required to attain it.
Unrelated footnote:
A few years ago I began to develop my own sci-fi concept. A non-human species that had to be both "advanced" yet sufficiently different from humans in distinct ways. With the species being intelligent yet physically incapable of producing technology, I realized that any desire for progress would be a drive to advance themselves and their own physiology. This advancement was in part due to genetic information forming complex instincts in subsequent generations. It made logical sense that instincts are formed by pattern recognition of cause-and-effect, patterns that lead to predictions. If a species had intelligence, advanced physiology with heightened senses for perception, reinforced by strong instincts, then it could surpass humans in their ability to predict the immediate future based on stimuli. These concepts were completely original to me. Part of the research that lead me to these concepts came from the lectures of philosopher Alan Watts, who was influenced by the theology behind Zen Buddism, Hinduism, and Judaism.
Imagine my surprise when I learned of Dune which had explored these topics over 60 years ago, and that Frank Herbert was also inspired by Alan Watts. Some of the spiritual elements were also influenced by the same theology.
Wow!! This is probably one of the best comments I've ever read on YT. You put a lot of work into this and i for one fully appreciate everything you said and enjoyed that last paragraph. Even if i had to read it twice.😂 well done 👍🏽
Technology in Dune is relegated to the position of tools rather than objects of "worship". I mean here the objects that are integral in peoples lives and shape them. Its rather subtle difference to our own reality.
Human advancement is obviously theme, but there are also warnings about it. Down the advancement path one reaches the point where something ceases to be human altogether. Abominations of Bene Gesserit and even Quizat Haderach himself. At what point something advances so much you lose connection to it?
And on Perception. There is indeed belief that Perception is of supreme importance. Yet the story shows that its not sufficient. Paul gained what Bene Gesserit coveted, and it showed that merely knowing things are coming does not mean you have the means to change even affect it. Its variation of Cassandra's myth from Geek mythology. One can see the punch incoming but not be fast enough to actually dodge it. Thus making Perception a Curse, one gets to agonize over their powerlessness in addition to all the bad that comes after impact itself.
P.S. How is development of Sci-fi concept going? I hope the other similar works served as inspirations rather than discouragements.
@@pofruin Very good points that cover the limitations of each aspect in Dune; the fact that nothing can attain perfection, not even the hero's journey is a great example of this. I have yet to look into Azimov's Foundation, but I've heard that Dune separates itself from it because it doesn't have a singular person that fixes everything. Not even Leto The Second.
As for my Sci Fi concept, its currently being refined and will probably need a few more iterations before I am satisfied with its quality. At first I really wanted to distance it from everything to avoid obvious tropes, but in time with more inspirations that connect to it, the more I appreciate how much thought is being put into it. The only problem is conveying it in condensed form. I understand why Frank Herbert had to write so much just to explain each concept that connects to the whole.
But is it possible to develop intelligence to that extent without the development of technology?
@@m.v.fernandezcantos8546 I am not certain when it pertains to scientific fact. Despite the complex brains of corvids, whales, and even some cephalopods. When we get to the degree of human intelligence, it requires a large brain volume with higher energy requirements. Technology to gather, prepare, and cook food is important because nourishment is vital for mental growth.
Very well-thought analysis and quality narration👌 Thanks and keep up the good work.
Stanley Lombardo trans. Of The Iliad - one of the changed verses ‘ Tell me muse, who had the greatest heroes of the Atreiades’
Awesome video! And really well edited as well! Subbing 👌🏼
I really enjoyed watching this🥺
I love the Sci-Fi channel mini-series, the only issue I see with them is that they weren't given the money they should have been given to do it right. but the actual plot and stories told were the closest to the books than the 84 and 22 movies, and I say that even though I love the 22 movie, which did cut out a lot from the book.
It would be amazing if you could combine the more complete story of the mini-series with the amazing direction of Denis Villeneuve and the obvious love he has for the book that is shown thought-out the movie..
Thank you
Insightful
Glad you enjoyed it.
Very insightful. Thank you. Subscribed.
Just knew your channel, Bli Walter. Love your analysis!
Thanks!
Gorgeous location as background for your video. Not to mention the excellent content
Near where I live, a lucky life in Bali.
@@DamienWalter I guessed correctly. :-) Never visited Bali though, but I've seen photos enough apparently to recognize geographical elements as well as cultural and religious cues. Beautiful background. You are, indeed, lucky.
I’d add you left out the most important aspect of classic medieval style fantasy …there be dragons ! Also along with the spices psychoactive effects which not everyone may enjoy its longevity effect can not be argued . If magic mushrooms added years to your life even the most conservative members of society would trip daily : )
Probably accurate! My experience of Dune was in a science fiction class at the community college about 20 years ago. I took the class because i wanted to read neuromancer and learn more about what was do great about it. I remember 4 of the books; Neuromancer, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, Wildseed and Dune. Neuromancer is great without a doubt, and i really got into PKD after watching the movie Waking Life, but Dune unexpectedly fascinated me more than any of those books. As someone with a knack for words and expressing ideas but not really that into reading novels, I ACTUALLY read Dune at that time unlike the others that i didnt get into for a few years (yeah, even neuromancer.) Dune is beyond being a masterpiece, i cant even find the words the say what drove me to read it, it was really just compelling.
really enjoyed your interpretation, but having come straight from Frank Herbert's interview on origin of Dune, a lot of your questions/theories were answered. ie Hero/Anti-Hero, Jung's archetypes are mentioned & Herbert poking fun at the Campbell's Hero's journey.
All seven seasons of Game of Thrones. I'm hoping that was a burn rather than a slip up, hahah
Originally 7 and 8 were two halfs of one season. But that has been dropped now. Let's call it 6 good ones ;)
I would love to see an Iain M. Banks novel made into a movie, I would even like to see David Lynch's interpretation 🙃😄 If not Lynch, then perhaps Christopher Nolan or Denis Villeneuve? 🤔😄
I think Denis Villeneuve's Dune is stunning.
Anyway, regardless of all of that, I am really enjoying your vids, found you from searching for breakdowns on The Peripheral and I'm now down the rabbit hole of your back catalogue gems 👌🙌
Thank you for all of your vids 💫
We're all waiting for Iain M Banks. The estate guard the rights closely though.
i think for human beings the hardest thing to do is to accept what was what is and what is yet to come we are hard wired to improve ourselves and in the trying to do so the outcomes arent always beneficial and often times detrimental not only to ourselves but everything around us
When I was watching game of thrones , I couldn’t point why it reminds me of the Dune Saga I thought it was just the idea of houses then watching your video now I understand why I felt like that.
Hi Damien. Just discovered you on RW. Love the analysis 👍
Thanks Michael.
You are of the sum! That sum made from multiple inputs.
Where did you film this? I love the ancient feel of the location.
It's a Buddhist shrine where I live in Ubud, Bali
The story attempts to deconstruct the Christian narrative often. Paul goes to the woman at the well and she gives him the living water. Totally opposite of Christ. And then he dies and his bride redeems him instead of vise verse. When presented with an opportunity his to self sacrifice he instead kills and is reborn through the violence.
And Leto continues the parallels not only by Dying as God but also by being an Irl reference to Psalm 22;6 "But I am a worm and no man"
is nobdoy else gonna talk about the obvious islamic influences Dune has
Does it have anything to do with the themes?
My guy Dune is literally loaded with Islamic undertones, where the hell do you get the Christian undertones besides quotes from the Orange Catholic Bible?
Bizarre take tbh
@@A_foranonymous I mean everybody and their mothers are talking about the islamic influences
Frank Herbert put his money where his mouth was. He was deeply involved with psychedelic mushrooms here in the Pacific Northwest. I have found the Dune series to open and open and open as I also work with these mushrooms. There is a resonance that becomes quite clear when you are well ripped open with mushrooms. A laying on of hands .
Thank you very much for this very interesting video.
Have you read "The Instrumentality of Mankind", by Cordwainer Smith? I believe Herbert did. A lot of similar ideas there
Yes, I was reading Cordwainer last year. How do you see the connection?
@@DamienWalter Norstrilia la the only planet with a giant animal that produces a substance for immortality (stroon). The navigators that suffer a terrible transformation to pilot the spaceships. The boy from a House going under a test to determine his humanity. A rival House wanting to kill him. The ornithopters. And so on...
Love this! Deeply appreciate your nuanced understanding of this seminal work! My understanding is that the Gaia Hypothesis wasn't publicly articulated until Lovelock and Margulis co-developed it in the 1970's. Since Dune was published in 1965 it does not seem accurate to say he was aware of it during the writing of the book.
IIRC I reference Gaia as a label for ecological thinking, which Herbert was very familiar with.
@@DamienWalter understood. Thank you for the clarification!
Where on Earth did you shoot this? I like it,
Bali.
12:50
Not bad writing for a guy living in Port Townsend, Washington.
Lets not forget the Giant Worms Of mongolia that herbert pays homage to!
I’d argue Star Wars isn’t particularly medieval. Jedi have more in common with Samurai than knights (which still isn’t really a perfect fit). I realize this video is about Dune but it was mentioned so I feel obliged to comment lol
Well, Samurai are medieval Japan...
@@DamienWalter And that’s what we call a big fat DUH moment. Excuse my stupidity there 😂. Great video!
Thanks, but transcendence is not 'from' anything and this is the dynamic at the heart of the story. Paul transcends his upbringing, and Jessica transcends her BJ role but Herbert is careful for the most part that they incorporate all that they were into the new. What is lost is thereby a real tragedy. The fight as I read it is not to lose as one transcends, and as one passes into bigger horizons hte struggle to retain humanity is the core of the story.
bj lol..bene gesserit
give me a break with the medieval there is computers and airplanes guns and atomic weapons deflector shields spaceships and what not in the books.
You miss the aspect of the visions of the future that Paul get from the spice and his own mind and the following consequences on his world the whole series is a warning not to dabble in accurate predictions of the future as it will lock the events with no place for humans free will and open destiny. Read all 6 books to get the full picture of his tale.
That 4 part TV series was in fact the most watchable of the Dune tries keeping to the book as much as it could . The latest now is totally a directors lack of reading the books and respecting its content a movie for people who know nothing about Herberts 6 books made in dark grimy colors and making up new characters as the woke times dictate. Unpalatable for a long time repeat reader of Frank Herberts master piece.
if Denis Villeneuve's dune and dune 2 are unpalatable woke drivel, then force feed me because that was the best science fiction movie of this decade
While attempting to show how deep and meaningful the books are this analysis helped me sum up why I find the Dune story so underwhelming.
It is science fiction without any intelligible elements of scientific novelty. Compare and contrast Bladerunner.
It is also a grand fantasy of warring factions but lacks the necessary depth and variety of character exposition for us to care about the fantasy world presented. Compare and contrast Lord of the Rings and even, on a more modest scale, Game of Thrones
Watch the video on Blade Runner. That's nothing to do with science either.
I think you're missing something
Um….ecological? Your analysis doesn’t touch this
It's right there at 6
11:40 is where it begins since you missed it.
Zendaya will forever be my Chani, the definitive Chani.
She's a very convincing Anima.
Never read the book. Never seen any movie or not even played the game.
But always feel disgust whe it comes to Dune, this aesthetic ... 🤢 shaved women 🤮
(Worms are cool though)
Maybe read the book then.
There are a few games although with one (poor) exception, they are all real time strategy games. Ironically, as a kid, long before having any knowledge of the Dune series or its profound cultural impact, Dune 2000 was one of the very first games I played on my personal computer. Computers with integrated graphics could handle such games so I naturally gravitated to such titles.
As for the SciFi channel series, I disagree with the video Authors assertion that it was mediocre but understand the sentiment. A lot of us are demanding an authentic film adaptation of Frank Herbert's Dune and the spirit of his works as he intended.
I have to laugh at the notion that some people do not enjoy Dune. Perhaps its my ego but I feel pity that others do not gain the insight and joy of this work of fantasy and sci-fi that is so elegantly crafted from a grounded basis of evolutionary biology in the form of selective breeding and willful evolution of super-abilities following the proscription of 'thinking machines' following from the Butlerian Jihad. Such an impressive and seamless blend of fantasy elements. What more could a person want?