How Effective Was The Me-262 With R4M Rockets Against Allied Bomber Raids? | IL-2
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- Опубліковано 28 тра 2024
- On 18th March 1945 the German jet-powered Me-262 interceptor used R4M rockets for the first time against a large USAAF bomber raid. Today we test this method of attack.
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0:00 Overview
1:37 Take Off
11:39 Attack
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#DCSQuestioned #GR #Me262 #IL2 #WWII #WW2 #WorldWar2 #DCS #Aviation #AviationGaming #FlightSimulators #Military - Ігри
When I was in the US Navy station at NAS Pensacola I use to volunteer at the National Naval Aviation Museum. During that year the Museum got a ME 262 for it's collection. When it arrived it did not have it's original tires because they didn't exist anymore. So to solve the problem they put tractor tires on it. If you ever get a chance to visit, you guys should. They have the only surviving Battle of Midway plane that was also at Pearl Harbour left, Adm. Nimitz personnel plane during the war, the F-14 that was the last to fly off an aircraft carrier and other great planes.
My kryptonite.....a well stocked air museum!!😂
Is it open to the public? Last time I was in Pensacola it was open to DoD personnel only. Public not allowed on the base.
Yes there is a gate you can go thought to the museum. The best thing to do is follow the signs, look online or call the museum and ask for directions. It is also free the last time I was there, they just ask for a donation. Also during parts of the year I think on a Tuesday or Wednesday, the Blue Angles practice their flying. This is during the winter time I believe. Just call or look online to see what's going on before you go. @@thomasdgardner
@@thomasdgardner I got to see it when I was at the NFA, it was incredible I think thats the only civvie way to get to it
Now I really want to see a round-robin tournament between the Me-262, Gloster Meteor, and Lockheed Shooting Star.
You could even call it “There Can Only Be Gen. One”.
I bought my house from a WW2 vet who was a navigator on a B17G, 351st wing of the 100th BG. His fort was one of the few who were shot down by ME-262s on March 18th, 1945 during the raid on Berlin. From what I could find, it looks like the kill was credited to none other than Theo Weissenberger, his 204th.
@9:15 Fly is referring to the Northrop F-89 Scorpion that carried a total of 104 2.75 inch rockets in pods attached to the wingtips.
Thanks for the background info Fly. Some of us were listening… Also, all the best war films have the Germans played by Germans speaking German, so nice one to you and your compatriot.
It's not "mark 108" but MK 108 - MK is Maschinen Kanone - autocannon. The MG 151/20 is, in Luftwaffe parlance, a machine gun.
The ME262 was the definition of a hangar queen. Their engine's only had a life span of around 10 hours or two attack missions.
Me-262 did have a practical endurance of 1,5h. But let say 2h, that is 5 combat mission. If a German pilot survive 5 combat mission 1945, he is probably a top ace, or is very close to become a ace, and can have a new set of engines.
Not also that Junkers Jumo 004 was extremely cheap to manufacture, compare to a Daimler-Benz DB 605.
@@kirgan1000I agree with your math but safety margins are a thing.
All early jet engines had atrocious tbo. That didn't significantly improve until the late 40s.
It was typically more like 25 hours than 10 hours. That's pretty short, even compared to other early jets. But that's before an overhaul, not total life of all components .
That's still (after accounting for time on the ground before getting airborne), more than half-a-dozen missions and going against bombers there would be a fair chance of the aircraft being damaged or even destroyed by that point.
That same arithmetic wouldn't have applied to Allied jets if they had been used more as the level of air superiority by this point meant that relatively few were being shot down. Even losses of B-17s and B-24s had fallen dramatically by the time 262s were in use and even Lancasters were doing quite a few daylight raids.
@@readhistory2023 The the Reich is collapsing, there was no time for luxury like safety margins, and your average pilots did only survive 2 combat mission 1945. Not the engine was not useless after 10h, but did need to be refurbished, like change parts like the turbine blades.
The 30mm cannon fired a "Mine" round. The fuse was delayed contact. It penetrated the skin then detonated. The explosive charge was 1.5 times that of a pineapple grenade. A single hit would destroy a fighter, one or two would destroy a bomber.
T'was nice to meet Cpt and see a 262 at RIAT 2023... I was the old guy who came bounding over to you Cpt like a puppy as we were queuing to get in
Hey good to hear from you! Come to more GR meets plz. WE have 3 per year.
Bomber intercept with the ME262 is my ALL TIME FAVORITE for this game!
Absolutely hilarious, I get the notifications so I jumped to this video and there's already two Bots. Telling us how much understanding and empathy and all the wonderful things about Grim Reapers. I literally spit coffee reading that.
Anyway thanks Cap for another great video, and yes I'm already assuming it will be great because I've never been let down yet😂
Four bots and they all have asses as their PFP
Your comment is like a pleasant journey
Bot lives matter?
@@grimreapers But... Bot Butts!
Awesome! Would love more IL-2 scenarios!
*_"What happens when I get 900 mph?"_*
*_"You go back to the future."_*
🤭🤭🤭
Wow, haven't seen the Grim Reapers do an IL-2 video in a while.
Great to see you in IL-2 again, Cap.
Love it!
That has to be one of the best looking planes ever made.
It must've looked like an alien space ship to the allied pilots at first
So comforting to see the "Multiplayer server overload..." message - makes me feel at home
Were any of the bomber's gunners returning fire? Seems like the sky should have been criss-crossed with tracers.
Nein nein, nein. The delay of the 262 was not caused by the Führer. The Joumo jet engines were delayed due to metallurgy problems.
The crazy Germans manage to build a working jet engine out of sheet metal..... that lasted 10h.... that is a feat of engineering.
Incorrect, it was caused by both issues, engines development and Hitler's need to make it a Schnel or fast bomber. BMW was also making jet engines but they weren't as good.
Ah should have posted here. The engines weren't ready, but it was lack of will and politics. If it was prioritised they would have had jets at the start of ww2
@geekpoet7443 The insistence of the Austrian Corporal did not play a significant role. It was metallurgy and production that made supply to the front lines before late '44 Impossible.
The jets should have been phased in by late '43 at the very latest to avoid the disastrous consequences of allied bombing.
Lucky us freedom-loving Europeans that that didn't happen and the resolve to topple the nazis was kept up.
@@kirgan1000make no mistake about it, despite the intricate ventilation system, which shrouded the NGV, the most impacted (guide) blades of the assembly, ordinary sheet metal would have not survived a single hour. 😂
This was already advanced metallurgy.
I was thinking dcs added the 262 but then realised its IL2 Sturmovik 😂
As someone who is extremely interested in the German military side of WW2 that was a super cool video. Thanks for uploading
Another interesting mission. Thank you!
Great to see IL-2 coming back !
Grim reapers 262 dogfight? Last one standing..
The IL planes actual feel like planes not hit-boxes. These are always cool videos.
Sorry Fly, no proximity fuse for Germany in WWII. There is a good YT channel, WWII US Bombers, with a video that covers the technical specs on the German air-to-air rockets and the tactics for using them.
thx
The Germans are really getting in touch with thirst ancestors in the 626 (no I do not mean those ancestors) just the aces
My buddies an I used to do a lot of YP-80 and ME-262 missions in IL2 when you had to install 20 odd patches, some in the wrong order so you could actually fly online, we had a great time setting our engines on fire in the 262, many aborted mission starts. It's so fun to fly, it used to be a complete nightmare to manage, lol. Not tried it in the more recent iterations, but I hope it's less erm explosive!
Idea: Ac-130 vs ww2 bombers
Mission over, planes landed, fade to black, Fly talking continuously in the background with the volume slowly fading away on his monologue. 😂
This video made me very glücklich 😊
Ja, das wichtig ist!
I am getting "Bodenplatte" DLC right after work today. I have had to switch to IL-2 since the Oculus Update to V63 won't let me play DCS. It was nice to see some different content on your channel Super Cap'.
nice video. good to see you playing this again. do you no longer stream on twitch?
Mondays and every other Friday for Twitch.
Let's see a battle of the WWII jets! Me-262 vs. He-162 vs. Gloster Meteor vs. P-80 Shooting Star! Maybe throw in the Me-163 Komet just for the heck of it!
It'll be pretty ugly, none of these are easy jets to fly.
@@grimreapers the Meteor had a nasty habit of at a particular speed if you rolled it and kicked in the wrong amount of rudder it could go into an unrecoverable spin, according to the book written by the first person to survive it. I don't think any of the WW2 ones have the level speed to experience it.
Some of the awful Meteor crashes were due to lax cold war safety standards, though, it seems.
That was a damn nice shot Cap :)
Actually it was wasn't it!
I love il2 missions😊
There was a variant of the me262 with a 50mm cannon in the nose , protuding significantlly.
I wish EG would add this legendary vehicle once in DCS, unfortunatly it doesn't has much fuel capacity, but it still lethal for it's time
Maybe you could try this in DCS using a rocket armed Frogfoot against a full formation of B-17s? A much more packed formation with more defensive firepower.
i learned something new
F-89D i think it was is the aircraft you're talking about with somewhere in the realm of 102 FFAR rockets as it's armament
Great show guys!
Love how the bots are all bots :)
Everything I heard about the 262 tactics was they would fly above the bombers dive down from above and shoot, then climb back up circle back around behind and dive back down again.
Yup. Typically tail end charlie was the most dangerous part of the formation as far as fighter intercepts. But I researched one B17 that was shot down by a 262, having met one of the surviving crewmen, and they were at the top of the formation when the pair of 262s came at them. Their 31st mission, they expected to be going home in a week or two, but the 6 who survived spent a month as POWs before getting out of there.
I really enjoyed that
I always felt that the He-280 was a better aircraft and one of the first to have an ejection seat. In fact I believe it was one of the first planes to actual use it's ejection seat due to problems with a prototype. Unlike the Me-262, the He-280 had tricycle landing gear from the beginning. The plane had two main things against it. The current types of available jet engines weren't very good and Heinkel wasnt liked by the RLM. Had Heinkel continued to focus on his jet engines with actually support from RLM, the situation would have fairly different.
Can you explain what did make He-280 a better aircraft? Me-262 did get tricycle landing gear, but He-280 did still have a split tail, and lack swept wings. I doubt that Heinkel can overcome the lack of chromium. Its crazy that the Germans managed to build a working jet engine out of "sheet metal"
The me-262 started out as a tail dragger which burned up fields when taxiing, lack of ejection seat, was heavier and lastly was produced much later in the war due to senior leadership demands to make it a fast attack bomber. The He-280 could have been in production by 1942 and armed with multiple 30mm cannon. In 1942 the He-280 would have been the fastest aircraft in the world at over 500mph without swept wings. I believe it's max was something like 512mpg. Imagine how much faster it would have been with even a slight wing sweap?
The He 280 with the intended HeS 30 engines would have been a good alternative to the Me 262 as regards performance, and easier to maintain.
The HeS 30 engine was less powerful than the Jumo 004B, but was smaller and 330 kg lighter, giving it a better power to weight ratio than the Jumo 004. (The Jumo 004 was really too big and heavy for the smaller He 280 airframe, although the V6 did fly in that configuration).
@@geekpoet7443 Willy Messerschmitt won the race for the contract to build a jet fighter , cause the Führer asked if it could carry bombs . And he said yes , even if he knowed that this was a stupid idea . Propably Heinkel said no and that was his mistake , even back then all that matters is making money .
@@geekpoet7443 the 262 also started out with straight wings, given a mild sweep as the change from Heinkel engines to Jumo ruined the balance.
Being a gunner on a bomber had to be the worst job in the war. Especially the ball turret gunner. Just the frustration of limited ammo and you are probably landing one out of a hundred rounds on a regular target, none the less on a 500 kt jet you have had no practice with. And the skins on a bomber would be like newsprint to a 30mm cannon or flak or anything shot at you. The bravery and skill of the gunners is off the charts.
Absolutely agree, looking at the bottom ball turret on B-17, many gunners got stuck inside and were crushed when the plane would belly land.
@@geekpoet7443
That's not true at all lmao, the ball mount was the safest position in the plane, and the person inside could usually be extracted from the ball in flight.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again : anyone who flew a mission in the ball turret of a B-17 deserves a medal.
Disappointed in simba, low kills and the Segway. Lol. Great as always
One of the most beautiful planes ever made. In 1998 five aviation enthusiasts pooled their funds and formed Me 262 Project. Over the next several years they built, tested, and flew five reproduction Me 262s as close to originals as they could do. They used modern GE business jet engines, modern avionics, and a strengthened nose gear, but they're otherwise almost exactly like the originals - just much safer and more reliable. Reportedly they cost about $2 million each, and they're not making any more of them.
Just my opinion but I always felt that me-262 was fairly generic for an aircraft design. The aircraft itself is amazing but wasn't anything special. If you compare it to the Arado Ar234 with single engine nacels under each wing was much more aerodynamic and with very clean lines. They had to use a lot of putty on the 262 to smooth out the body because of many of them were produce in field factories. They would use the autobon for airstrips.
As far as the best looking jet aircraft of ww2. My pick is the Arado Ar-234 recon bomber.
I don´t know how many diffrent WWII jets there are in the game. But it would be cool testing them against each other.
Apart from the ME262, there was the Meteor (F1 and F3)
P59
P80
He 162 (that probobly was a fairly decent plane in the right hands)
FR Fireball
Vampire
(Below flow but didn´t enter service during the war)
FD phantom
ME328
Mig I-250
I believe the only jets are me 262 and arado 234
@@michaelc9155meteor was in production and used to down v1s.
There was the the caproni camping n.1 from the ww2 Italians. It used a piston engine to drive the compressor so not exactly a true jet engine but it did fly.
The he 178 was the first official jet aircraft and the n.1 was second.
Don't forget the crazy Russian ramjet based yak-7
Me-262 vs A10 next?
Based on experience from Forgotten Battles to 1946, those rockets are moderately useful head on thanks to the spread but not worth much more than a burst of 30 mm from behind. I rarely took them along since they are mostly drag for limited benefit. The guns have plenty of ammo assuming you can make every short and controlled burst connect.
In general, a big, slow bomber is just a high-altitude ground target. It's best to slash from above and slightly to the side if gunners are not taking a nap. Something being easy or hard to hit is a matter of size and controlling line of sight rates. Coming in as fast as possible makes hitting easier for me, especially if coming in from an angle (target stays closer to the gunsight).
A top ace pilot have the skill to use short and controlled burst, but your average pilot is more helped by one pass and use the "rocket shotgun method"
I had no idea Il2 has a mission editor.
I actually knew a guy who flew these... Had many stories.
This only show how skill demanding the Me-262 was in the interceptor roll, and only top pilots could fully utilize the plane.
Fly is really nerding out on the 262.😂
#FlyFan
I have a B-17 locked on radar (my eyes), Fox-0!
16:50 the typical myth being spread that the 262 was delayed by the Austrian Corporal's insistence of the 262 being able to carry bombs. That is an often heard "excuse" for the 262 not being ready earlier in the war. Ugly truth: the 262 was far from ready as it was, the capacity to carry bombs did not delay the fighter any more than engines and other issues delayed it. 😅
early jets were almost ill-suited to fighting.
All new Luftwaffe fighters of the period were required to be able to operate as Jabo.
@@wbertie2604yes. But that does not support the myth that the 262 was delayed solely due to this requirement.
@@daszieher I agree.
Germany never got a working proximity fuse during the war.. if they had the 8th airforce losses would have been a LOT higher
thx
was the flight time on them something like 35 minutes?
Jet fighters were mostly coordinated in such a way that they would attack from behind to give the pilots enough time to aim their guns/rockets. Head-on attacks in the 262 are fun in the simulator as a 1-v-many, but coordinating low-time pilots in fast movers against a bomber formation with unknown/probable target in a head-on intercept was only really feasible in prop aircraft.
Can't remember where I read this, as I'd never met a 262 pilot in person. Did speak to quite a few Bf109, Ju87 and Ju88 pilots. All this was scary as f... and not really worth it.
What if whare put a hawk, Sam
the Me 163 Komet was a pretty interesting interceptor. The fuel would dissolve the pilot
I doubt it was a common problem, its like say the fighter was loaded with loots of gasoline that could ignite and cremate the pilot, and in very rare case cause a massive fule explosion.
@@kirgan1000 T-stoff killed quite a few pilots
@@MTBScotlandWhat number is a few?
Not to mention exploding on landing when some left over t-stoff and c-stoff would mix due to bouncing.
Me-262 vs. F-86 and Me-262 vs. MiG-15 at some point, please?
Well this rockets were for long range , so you're out of the range of enemy back gunners . You used them at point blank , you could use your guns for that .
Hey Cap, how come you are attacking B-25's instead of B-17's and B-24's which both had by far more defensive weapons?
B-25s were faster?????
because B17's and B24's are not in IL-2
@@scarecrow184 Thanks Scarecrow for helping me get my head out of my arse. As soon as I read your reply I'm surprised you didn't hear my palm hit my forehead. Thanks again!! LOL!!
What package do I need to download to get the ME-262?
I think it's Bodenplatte.
The conversion to bomber did not delay the me 262. General lack of interest did. Also politics. I think dornier had one ready to go that could have been up and running pre ww2! But Willie messhersmidt schmoozed and ended up with the contract.
He 280 was also ready and flew way earlier , but Willy said that his Me262 could carry bombs . And the Führer liked that idea , even if it was stupid . It's all about the money .....
@@5co756 sounds about right
@5co756 actually I think it was heinkel rather than dornier. Thanks for the clarification
@@drfill9210 As I said He 280 was a jet fighter from Heinkel . 😉
@@5co756 yep, I that's why I acknowledged
Why were the bombers not shooting back ?
When did Brian Cox start flying with you? 😀
Can you put in the description what game this is?
Done, thanks for reminder.
Did he say 30 planes damaged 700 bombers?
I have no idea, I had a hard time understanding him.
For anyone wondering what the kill count for the 262 is: according to the USAF Museum 1400 me 242s where produced of which 300 saw combat and those 300 claimed a total of 542 allied aircraft kills. USAF museum does not state how many 262s where shot down so I think its fair to assume all 300 of them got shot down.
On forums people/historians have toned that number down quite a bit. One of these post claims no more than 150 allied aircraft where shot down for the price of 100 me 262s, this was mentioned in the forum it is a quote from "German Jets in Combat" by Ethell and Price.
There were also 10's of German prop planes.
@@commandantkevin AFAIR, about 160 were shot down in air-to-air, 80% by P-51s. Non-combat losses were common - engine failures of some sort and running out of fuel being common. Non-combat loss rates were pretty high in WW2 with it being not uncommon for half of losses being due to non-combat causes.
@@wbertie2604Strafing someone landing a 262 isnt air to air, its effing seal clubbing.
Eric "Winkle" Brown, the greatest pilot of all, called the ME262 the greatest aircraft of the war. Just a pity for Germany that politics stopped Heinkel producing its own jet fighter, (HE280) which was faster and available over a year before the ME262.
I dont know about calling eric brown the greatest pilot of all, especially when it comes to his anecdotes he was quite the character
@@sparkling925 Flew more aircraft types than anyone in history, first to land a twin engined aircraft on a carrier, first to land a jet on a carrier, most carrier landings in history, to name a few.
How can a plane that have straight wing, be faster then a plane that have swept back wings, that have a better critical mach speed, and is limited by its critical mach speed?
@@MarkloopRAFmy comment was more about his personality when it comes to fame and making statements
@@kirgan1000 the 262's wing is so barely swept so it doesn't outweigh other aerodynamic considerations.
I could add some emoji’s to appear more bot-like…
is that UA-cam censorship
on the tail
In all the years I've been playing IL2 I have never, ever hit anything wiht any type of rocket whatsoever. Mind you, that may well be a me problem.
You like doing Atl.s so..... could a Squadron of these have torn up a US carrier air-group off Japan in 1945?
Or, to be more specific - could they have destroyed the Carrier itself?
You guys were climbing out too slow. The slats on Cap's wing are still open at 7:20. You need to accelerate in level flight until they close and only then start climbing. Your climb angle will be shallower, but you'll keep the vsi pegged north of 10m/sek
Where's the return fire...the 262 would have been long gone after the first five minutes !!!
540 mph for the 262
thx
A 25 minute video about the 262 in WW2, and no-one quotes Chuck Yeager? "The first time I saw a jet I shot it down"
Anyone here watch Hyce777
Der Fuehrer saw fighters as defensive, bombers as offensive, so he wanted bombers not fighters.
Who in the hell let's fly talk?!? Shut him up somehow
Why?
Can't you understand accents?
@mfreed40k Probably something to do with him being a Grim Reaper and, you know, being one of the content creators?
Video would have been good except someone just can't help running his mouth.
I love me some IL-2, but damn I wish DCS would do a Me 262 module
Do the same mission but using the R4M's as they were meant to be used, that is, as stand-off weapons. Not saying you'll hit anything, but I'm curious.
How would this fare against Sabre in dogfight