@@1Maklak yeah it's an inbuilt deux ex system -- which most magic systems are the deeper you dive into them, but this one just blatantly says it out loud and gets rid of trying to justify itself or corner itself -- anything can happen at any time, basically -- it's just as genius as it is stupid
@@IrregularPineapples To be fair. They acknowledge you need to be batshit insane to be able to break this system like this. The Impression I get is delulu levels of insane because normal people are literally holding themselves back because of how they see reality.
@@arnowisp6244 another thing I think about it is the magic is based entirely on imagination. so Ubel's ability to imagine cutting is insane because shes obsessed with cutting
@@IrregularPineapplesit's basically the most complicated rock paper scissors game. Sense said that even though magic is about visualization and believing, there is so much you can do about a matchup. An Ant can believe and see itself defeating a dragon, but the dragon is the rock and the ant is the scissor no matter how much you believe, by the rule of the world, the ant would unlikely defeat the dragon. With ubel, she is Scissor and the defense mages were paper (because the defense tied to his clothes). The matchup already favored Ubel and Her extreme delusion. If the paper were made of steel, it still can be cut by proper tools.
"magic is based on visualisation" but usually you build your visualisation based on your logic and understanding, ubel is an anomaly that builds perfect visualisation with just a feeling
Hard to call her visualization perfect. What could Ubel do against Fern or Freiren? She would only be able to rely on their mercy. Ubel’s advantage against Sense and the cloth strengthening magician was not an absolute advantage against of magicians of equivalent strength, but stemmed from fundamental limitations in their own approaches to magic. They both got too clever by half, and relied too much on unique magics which multiplied their strengths in most cases but them left them with Achilles’ heels. Instead, if they had stuck with developing more conventional approaches instead of becoming so dependent on their unique magics, Ubel would not have been able to cut them down like that. So, while Ubel is certainly special, she was only as strong against those two because of fundamental weaknesses in their own magics that she could exploit.
@@keoghanwhimsically2268 Ubel sorganeal is enough to defeat fern. The only way fern stands a chance is if fern has ambushed ubel or cast zoltrack faster than ubel reaction speed . So ubel doesn’t really need to rely on fern mercy. Her sorganeal is already way enough to deal with fern in face to face confrontation
@@hyjjjkyikk3158 Hahaha! Are you trolling? If you actually believe this, you have no clue about the story’s characters or how its magic system works. (For those paying attention, both anime and manga have already shown enough so far to suggest that Fern is on her way to becoming a Grand Mage, alone among the current age human mages.)
@@keoghanwhimsically2268 if that’s the case use “manga fern “dang it. Also ubel also got her own type of magic from Serie which we have no idea of so let’s not be to quick to judge. It’s possible ubel got magic as dangerous as curse reflection magic. Fern in the anime or the manga has yet to develop any sort of counter to sorganeal . So I don’t see how you think fern could just straight up ignore sorganeal and zoltrack her. Manga fern asset to kill ubel is to cast zoltrack fast . But even then ubel has another magic spell from Serie so you can’t just jump into the conclusion she would win without knowing ubel other spell
I love how tame the magic spells appear, at least visually, up until Frieren fights herself and you're just left sitting there like, "oh.....DAMNNMNNMM she knows MAGIC magic." Can't wait to hopefully see a second season!
She was part of the party that defeated the FREAKING DEMON KING, I'd hope she was at least first class level of strength at that point + she defeated a demon by herself before she even met Flamme, so she's probably known magic for 300+ years
Really adds to her dismissiveness of "modern mages," too. There ain't anyone who can throw down like that anymore, defensive magic has hampered their creativity too much. Thus, all you need to do is just hammer them until they stop. A very lazy approach, but it works for her and would probably work for anyone with the right mindset, given that Fern can pull it off too.
I like that it's not overly complicated. It's flexible enough to suit characters traits by being unique to their persona whole restrictive to the will of the user
I like how Frieren treats magic the same way an artist treats their art. Your imagination is your paintbrush, and your mana is the paint. It also provides a great contrast against Serie, who only cares for the result her magic can have, not the process nor any utility beyond "I am more powerful than my opponent".
The manga is more descriptive. There is magic that humans and demons use. Generally, the demons come up with something and the humans adapt it or defend against it. (Flamme made magic available to humans. Before her, humans shunned magic because demons used it.) Ubel is a human who casts magic like a demon. But, there is another magic and that is the magic of the goddess. Her spells are in the holy book that Methode and priests use. They are still decoding spells from their Bible. So, demons use magic intuitively and humans engineer magic as an applied science. It is a very interesting world.
The goddess magic is a third thing. Humans use magic like a science isn't really right they do just copy demons or the godess to start with but they make their magic better or different which is where the science comes into it. Zoltrak and the defensive magic are so effective as a baseline because they are simple concepts that don't interact with visualization well. You cant imagine cutting a defensive barrier made of magic better or worse because there's nothing to relate it to so it just becomes who has more mana / can cast more, basic competency and speed of casting is all that matters. Hence fern is bullshit. You can get better efficiency out of other spells but they start to be counterable. Visualization comes into play when you start to use magic to manipulate concepts, matter and forces to produce an effect. If you spend all your time visualizing a super stronk cloak someone can just imagine cutting the fabric then their spell only has to interact with each thread individually and becomes able to cut it easily. If you made the outside also have a visual normal defensive barrier it becomes uncuttable to ubel but weaker vs other mages. Any conclusion a demon or ubel comes to instinctively that actually works as magic still works through a scientific principle ultimately. Which is why the human magic tends to win out eventualy.
They refer to the goddess magic as "miracles" which comes from humanity seeing it as a blessing upon themselves before they learned how to cast spells using their own influence. Miracles do not follow the rule of imagination, but instead follow intent. Things such as "heal, restore, smite". It is less flexible, hence why not everyone can use it.
@@chrislepera6541 It's more subtle than that. Casters have to have the ability to cast most miracles, hence people who are called priests. Mages can cast simple miracles using scripture. Curses are a third type of magic that is cast by demons/monsters, but cannot be understood easily by mages. Priests may be able to analyze curses to some extent. Mages can as well, but it involves searching the memories of the monster who casts the cursed magic.
@@johnmoore8599I would image some tank adventurer specializing in Goddess magic and physical combat (oh wait there is a Kraft the Monk). Heiter for example practically could walk in and become 1st class mage since his mana pool was so huge and he could buff not only him but also his party members to point where they won’t need to eat or breath for entire month and other buffers. Heiter also could have been really powerful mage if he wanted but he chose goddess magic instead and I don’t know why.
@@viljaminieminen6925 It was implied in the anime that priests had an innate talent for casting miracles, hinting that it was a genetic component. There was never any granting of the Goddess' Blessing to a caster as far as I know. One was just born with it. Nothing has been said if paladins exist in this world. Himmel comes close, but he was a knight in the spirit of Lancelot. And, Kraft was just a monk. He never cast spells. He was just an extremely talented martial and spiritual artist.
Übel is not sane enough to understand that the defense magic _should_ stop her - so it doesn't. She casts spells without any understanding of the mechanics. She kinda reminds me of a demon. Like she is related to a Spiegel.
That's just half correct she her states that she can't get past defensive magic since she believes that's how it works she was able to cut serie and the other guy because they weave their defenses in something she knows can be cut In short, she cuts through it because she only feels mana and can't see the actual barrier
Ubel is a great character because she serves as a means to clarify the explanation of the magic system. She does this by being unusual, but not technically an exception to the rules. She's like that "weird" kid who does math completely differently from the way the instructor teaches it, but still arrives at the same answer.
Yup, when she speaks with other characters you can't even tell if she's just doing it in hopes of getting their power or because she's actually trying to interact. As soon as she found out that Fern only uses the most basic spells to fight she immediately switched her focus onto the clone guy.
@@misanthropicservitorofmars2116 I noticed that too but another comment already suggested a theory that she's a half demon which would, in that commenter's words "explain a lot"
There appear to be two different versions of Zoltraak. One white, one black. The white is the version modified by humans. It's attuned specifically to damage demons, and as a result seems to do less damage to humans (or at least to be more easily defended against with internal mana), as we've seen multiple instances where humans were hit with it (albeit by glancing blows) but not fatally injured. The black is the original, the one created by Qual, and is attuned toward damaging humans. From what Lügner says after first encountering Fern (who hits him with the white version), demons "conquered it" decades ago, so it can be assumed it no longer does much damage to them. Defensive magic appears to protect against both similarly, with the comparative strengths of the Zoltraak and defense casters appearing to have the greatest impact on how long it takes to burn through the defense or whether it can even be done. All demons who have been shown using Zoltraak have used the black version. Most humans naturally use the white, but some humans have been shown being able to use the black or use both. Frieren has used both the white and (via her replica) the black, and Lernen notably used the black in his attack on Frieren. Notably, both mages were around and practicing magic before the creation of the white version, so it's probably safe to assume that that's probably the version they initially learned, especially considering Frieren is credited as helping develop the himan usage of-and protection from-Zoltraak.
@@ZhuGeLiang6969yeah, tbh, I don’t remember anyone being fatally hit with the white zoltrack, mostly bcs the only time I remeber it happening was during the first class mage arc with fern.. (No other arc has human v human interactions after first class, besides the occasion scuffle, so idk where it would be shown.)
@@heilamwether8911 I'm not sure what Frieren hit Denken with to end their battle, but she was tossing white Zoltraaks at him throughout the fight. I always assumed he tanked one at the end, which is what drained his mana. Am betting his robe gives him some extra protection, as well, given that it's the uniform of an Imperial Mage. If so, it adds a bit to his character that he took it off before throwing hands at the end of the first test. He didn't want to have an unfair advantage...
One cool thing i noticed about Lernen is that he also has his own developed version of Zoltraak: He turned them into a destructive orb that effortlessly shred through 3 of frieren's shield (which Fern failed to get through) and only slightly missed Frieren
What I like about the magic system is that it creates a very interesting juxtaposition with the miracles of the goddess. It’s explained that despite it functionally being indistinguishable from a spell the source and effects of the miracles are even to the world inhabitants just…..well magical. They perform their effect without any logical explanation or ability to recreate them. And they all require that you possess some form of tome from the goddess and have at least a little faith. This existing at the same as the magic system is cool to me since it makes both more interesting just by being there together then they would be independently.
That and referring to magic that isn’t magic of the goddess nor understood human magic as curses, the reason they are curses is exactly because people don’t get how they work
Yee, you'll see a lot of spells from the pre-human era don't work based on common logic/understanding. For example *slight spoiler* Serie just has a spell that will reflect/stop all manners of spells deemed "curses". This should not be possible with the magic system but it just is.
@@Jedmonds-9173 not sure how that wouldn’t be possible with how the system was explained. Curses are simply spells that you don’t understand the core logic behind casting. So a spell that blocks another spell that you dont understand would still be logically consistent with the rules of the magic system. It just wouldn’t be feasible for an average human to conceptualize something like that. But that’s not really an exception. It more showcases the advantages of endless time for meditating on a concept.
I'll also add that in frieren there is 3 type of magic 1. Goddess magic Goddess magic is used to heal related and you need book to use it. Master of this type of magic you can get Goddess blessing. 2. Modern magic Mostly for combat and used to manipulate certain objects instead of creating it. Benefits of this kind of magic is faster to cast. 3. Old magic This kind of magic can materialize objects out of thin air. Old magic is powerful, silly, and yet beautiful.
The difference between old and modern is mostly just a style difference. Defense magic changed the meta requiring the change. Goddess magic is beyond humans and requires the Goddess favor and texts as a cipher/answer key to allow you to cast it. Demon magic is also beyond humans cause demon minds don't function according to the same principles as human minds.
More like if she does understand it too much, she starts thinking it can't be cut. That's why defensive magic works. A lot of mages use physical materials like rock and hair because it costs less mana than materialising a pure magic shield.
This magic system is very conceptually similar to how technology works in real life first you imagine something and then you work to bring into reality.
I'm not sure if Yamada thought it through with the imagination/visualization thing, though; while there is magic that's a reflection of the user, the characters still learn spells by studying books and understanding the "exact mechanics" of it. the only character whose magic is based on imagining things is Übel, and she's written as an exception to the rule. Also despite Sense stating that her visualization is detached from common sense, her "hair is meant to be cut" trick sounds more like she wields an *exaggerated* common sense.
@alficiro3238 characters study their magic and the exact mechanics is because the more exact the visualization is, the more powerful and over all full the magic is on cast. Anyone can imagine the image of creating wager from mid air, but someone who understands the spell taking in air and extracting the water by removing the elements outside of oxygen and hydrogen then you have someone able to make much more water. Ubel is someone who, in her own crazed way, figured out that anything can be cut if it is simply separated with scissors or a blade. This makes the most sense to her, and believes that she fully understands how it works and thus boosts it's power.
Programming is basically just spellcrafting with more strict rules, but more flexible control flow. It's usually treated as a science (Compete Science), but it's just as much of not more so an art. If you can visualize how to do something at the lowest level, then it's very likely that you can make a computer do it. What makes it challenging is that most people tend to think at a higher level of abstraction than is required, or they leave gaps that a human would normally be able to fill in, but a computer can't. Also, sometimes the computer will do things you couldn't have possibly expected. People less familiar with computers are likely to get upset when this happens and either blame the machines or whoever made or programmed it. Those more familiar understand that this is something that can never be completely avoided and while it's hard to predict exactly _how_ what you've made will blow up in your face, you should always be prepared for when (not if) it does. Computers _are_ magic and those who claim otherwise are either using a specific definition of magic as that which violates physics, or they believe they understand more than they do.
@@angeldude101 that magic is just ignorance of the full set of rules, if you build your own computer you wouldn't find any trace of magic in it (source codes get lost every time, ask gamers)
I think the most important aspect to it is the characters don't treat magic like a mystery. It's SCIENCE. They study, deconstruct and use what they learn to create something new and then they all get to use it. "Ordinary Offensive magic", "Defensive magic", hell even the ability to fly, are all the new basics because they see the utility in them. You see this perfectly exemplified in the scene where they're trying to figure out how to deal with Frieren's clone. They sit and discuss what they know, experiment to gather more information (Methode and then Fern tested/demonstrated magic on Frieren) and then they developed a plan. Other note on Frieren(show) as a whole, the way everything is explored from the world to the magic systems, is done by SHOWING you through the characters rather than TELLING you. The best example of this is the story showing us why demon's are evil. The scene is tragic and we FEEL it, we don't just get a "demon's killed my daughter and then tried to apologise by stealing someone elses", it's shown to us. Obviously this can't be done for everything, see Frieren narrating to Fern about Quals, but even then we see how he instantly understood and countered the defensive magic spell showing his own aptitude with magic rather than just relying on "he's one of the strongest." It's subtle but that's what makes it feel real.
That moment when Qual saw them use defensive magic, and then immediately figured out how it worked, and it's weakness was hands down the best way to show how dangerous he was
@@beauvidler3094if only he was less arrogant and immediately understood oh I need to runaway and update to catch-up with modern magic I stand no chance of fighting humans right now
I really like Übel's victory over Burg because it really emphasizes the kind of mantra of the series of "live in the moment" "get out of your head". all the other mages were unable to damage the cloak because they were overthinking all the defensive spells on it. they got into their own head so much, they were unable to grasp that it's just a cloak and so they failed.
Why wasn't Burg able to grasp that Ubel's spell was just a cutting spell though? Why did Ubel's imagination win? Burg was clearly fully confident he wouldn't be cut by it.
@@AWanderingSwordsman Burg wasn't imagining blocking Reelseiden in this moment, nor when he made the cloak. he was working in the completely theoretical mindset of "these spells should block or counter anything that could harm me." he never looked at any specific situation to counter a specific spell, aside from maybe Zoltraak. Ubel won because she fought in the moment, Burg relied on theoretical immunities against everything, which he likely didn't imagine.
@@AWanderingSwordsman Because Übel casts entirely based on instinct. She cannot not comprehend the fundamental mechanics of magic, she just does it. She's effectively playing a completely different game. It's like trying to win an argument against someone, and having all of the facts straight, doing all of your research, and thinking of every possible counterpoint. At the end of the day, despite all of your preparations, you can only win the argument against someone who is operating on the same wavelength as you. Someone who ALSO cares about the facts. You can never win an argument against someone who doesn't care that they're wrong. "The Earth isn't flat, here's a million reasons why." "Yes it is." Übel is like a walking fallacy. Magic is so widely understood by mages, boiled down to such a science, that this belief that they understand it is a faulty preconception in and of itself. A preconception that limits imagination. I believe Burg was so convinced that he had pooled together a defense against every single feasible method of attack, that he completely failed to consider that someone would just say "no," and refuse to play along. Übel didn't cut it because she cast the right spell, she cut it because she is so incredibly out of touch with reality, she had the absolute GALL, the insanity, to BELIEVE that a spell she cast would cut it in the first place. Burg expected fire, he expected earth, he probably even expected cutting, he expected literally every possible attack... So she used an impossible one.
But this also means that his protective spell worked only against people who knew that there was one. Any mage who had no idea that the cloak was supposed to defend against everything could just ignore it.
@@RolandHeszA mage can sense mana quite easily. Although some are better at it than others, a cloak imbued with defensive magic would be nearly impossible to miss, since they don't have to really look for it. It's just right there in front of them, clear as day.
It's worth mentioning Zoltraak isn't the simplest offensive magic. It was the first spell that could pierce magical armour, so 80 years after stealing the spell from Qual humanity made it the benchmark for new defensive magic. In turn, it was made a part of the basic curriculum. It has an added bonus of being highly efficient as a beam of raw magic. The only reason modern mages have stepped away from it is because magical defenses can effectively counteract it - unless of course you specialize in it and can overwhelm such protections. In summary, baby Fern grew up wielding the most dangerous weapon ever designed.
To use D&D terms, Ubel is a sorcerer in a world of wizards. She uses her magic based on feeling and intuition. Its what lets her copy a spell once she understands the feelings of the caster. (Also WOULD)
What I particularly liked is how elemental magic was introduced in this series. Elemental magic (for combat) isn't fundamental magic, but the result of an arms race. Zoltraak was developed as the fundamental killing spell. Defense spells were developed to counter Zoltraak; these spells could also protect against other types of spells, but not as effectively, and even less against physical attacks. Thus the development of elemental combat magic, as it would count as physical attacks against defensive magic.
Image someone who has some level of understanding natural science and using it to enhance their elemental magic. Guys like Rudeus Greyrat from mushoku Tensei would be really hard to defeat but not impossible since magic in Frieren is about visualization (except Goddess magic)
@viljaminieminen6925 rudy's thing is that he always underestimates himself, he gets arrogant for even a second and the literal most powerful person in the worldkicks him back down
@@MrBii03 I never said that it would be impossible to defeat Rudeus. Just enough to provide a real bad headache. Also he wasn’t arrogant when he faced Dragon God for first time. Just clueless what was Dragon God’s relationship with Human God.
@viljaminieminen6925 If I remember correctly in the novel he actually was (mentally). He honestly deserves to be a bit arrogant but he isn't. I never said it wouldn't be hard or impossible. I was just talking about Rudy's mentality especially during the current anime season.
My theory on why the defense spell is never named is because spell names makes the spell concrete and therefore a named defense spell is ill suited against other magic attacks. Defense magic is one of the only things Ubel doesn't cut through because it's so incomprehensible to visualize going through defense magic. If you name defense magic "shell", "reflect", "shield", "ward", or "barrier", there's always some offensive visualization that counters it (e.g.: "hammer" vs "shell"). So offensive spells are named as a handicap for the caster to visualize its effect. Kind of like in JJK naming techniques makes them stronger, naming spells in Frieren is nice training wheel for casting it.
makes sense, folk spells are only referred to by their purpose, offensive spells are often named uniquely such as the spells frieren used during the fight against her clone.
Makes way too much sense. Zoltraak was the epitome of an "offense" type of magic and was literally delegated as the basic attack spell for mages later on so what's better to defend against it than something called "defense magic"?
But the spell is concrete. Qual was able to analyze it and caste it almost immediately, which is how he figured out its weakness. I think a simpler explanation for Ubel is that ordinary defensive magic is just a thing she took for granted before developing her cutting spell. Through formal training or seeing a mage battle. In the same way her spell probably wouldn't work on an anvil either, as that is something she'd probably be familiar with as a child.
As a writer I can savely say to develop a magic system, which is coherent, simple but also gives enough creative freedom, from scratch is incredible hard and I totally get it if ppl stay with what is known if it isnt the story's main focus unlike in Frieren where it is literaly a major part of the story. A tip I can give, new world builders start with the origin or source and build up from there. Also if you need inspiration dont fear to look beyond the fantasy realm... I did the biggest jumps in my development while learning chemistry and physics in school.
the less details you tell the less likely you are to contradict yourself and have more freedom to make it work I'm not entirely sure how the "if you can imagine it then it works" works with using books to learn new spells instead of just imagining the effects without that but that probably can be explained somehow, like you have to imagine *what exactly* happens at the lower level, think Rudy working out the water magic with his physics knowledge
Tbh, I didn’t realize how complex Frieren’s magic system was till people started pointing it out: I always thought that the imagination aspect was an integral part to magic casting, like that of Mushoku Tensei, and it was more or less a generic magic system. When I first saw it being used, I thought the magic was going to be more akin to that, but it seems like it’s a mix of that, and mental configuration: a system of manipulating something through the idea of visualization, with the more mana and proficiency, the stronger the result, but if you have a strong visualization, you don’t need as much mana, and still do a lot. This is how Ubel was able to cut through anything, even though she was weaker then sense, and the barrier put up on the cloak. because her mind knew it could cut it, it bypassed all normal danger barriers to do the thing she visualized. (But it also seems like it has limits: like how defensive magic could defend against it, Ubel has to be in close proximity to activate it, and the times she’s been shown to be able to do this was against opponent that don’t react with magic, or doesn’t actively defend against it.) what she visualized wasn’t the cutting of the defense, it was the cutting of the material, which allowed her to cut, and in-turn, caused the defensive magic on those items (or person in the case of the cloak guy she murdered.) to crumple, and since the first class mage was inside the cloak, cause him to also get cut, like how the air gets cut when your cutting fabric with scissors. Really, this is a very intresting power system, something that if the Mushoku Tensei logic applies, means that with enough visual manipulation and magic, Frieren can make an actual nuke, or stone cannon, or just a fucking gun. So many options, so much that we don’t know. (This could also explain how Frieren is able to decode and learn new spell so quickly, because she understands the visualizations, and is able to learn to dissect and reverse the effects.) But this is all just a thought.
@@Z4KIUStbh, I think the books gives a templet for what to imagine, and what to think to try to do something: like, we know how to boil water, but *how* do you boil water with magic? Best answer would be putting heat into it, by taking the energy from the surroundings, and condensing it into the liquid, causing it to boil. We might know this and how it works, but then how would you visualize it? How would u visualize turning grapes sour? Derusting materials? Or getting stains out of clothing, or getting clean clothes? It’s easy to imagine the end product, or what it should end up, but how about the in between? Like, we know it’s a world of visualization, but we don’t know how hard they have to visualize it, if they need the know how to do it: Ubel was able to cut through anything because she knew that cloth could be cut, hair was made to be cut, and could visualize the cutting, because she has also done it before, could the same thing be applied here? Like you have to visualize, or know how to clean clothes to be able to using the clean clothes spell? Maybe that’s what’s inside the book, or is what is being detailed. Personal opinion is that the books act as a archive/templet that people can use to try to gain tips to do the spell their trying to do, and gives them tips as to visualizing the steps of doing the process they want to do, because everything is slightly different, and giving someone a broad concept on how to do it would give them more insight in how it works, like make many randomly-shaped grapes that arn’t the same, sour. If that’s the case, it would also explain why Frieren is so keen on getting more spells like this. It would help more with her visualizations, and help improve her ability to decode spells, because when imagination is king, if you have experienced thousands of different spells, it should give you some experience in trying to solve a new spell, like if you have learned freezing, you should learn how to boil, and so on.
yea ive seen some people create these immencly complex magic systems, with tonns of rules and restrictions, as a way of trying to make fanticy as realistic as possible, which is not to say thats a bad idea. and people wont enjoy tat i mean some people love padantic things like that but for me it takes allot of the joy out of the story, aslong as its a well thought out but simple system. that means fights are still intence and aslong as the series doent have to constantly explain there system i think its a winner. frieren does a fantastic job, makes me feel like im playing D&D symioultaniously compleax but easy to understand. also the logic frieren aplies is brilliant basicly use zolterac. use this defencive spell, the most esential spells are cleaning or making flowers or making ice cones.
@@robertlaidlaw4592 I totally get what you are saying and agree.(I love complex magic systems but hate it, if every spell comes with a page long explaination) I do believe the creator themself has a set of complex rules but I they are careful about what gets told and only sticks to the bare minimum, which is needed to understand, whats going on. There is an advise I got, which I personally try to stick to. That the author builds a stage, but the viewer only sees what's in the spotlight. Basically every good fantasy story I know does this. I actually went from a very restricted type of magic to a very open one, but behind the scence I only changed on thing, all the other rules are still standing. And Frieren feels like a masterful example of this. There is a lot world building behind the scence, but we dont see it most of the time, which makes the magic system and world itself feels very coherent.
Might actually be a double-edged sword, as it's simple to imagine a natural phenomena in terms of its effects but recreating it via modern day science may cause the spell's effects to be restricted to what is scientifically possible.. On the other hand, railgun.
i’m not sure I really get the concept that Übel introduces, her scene cutting the defensive mage’s cloak is said to be possible because she can imagine cutting it, but that brings up so many issues, what about that mage’s imagination? Was he not able to imagine her not being able to cut it? Why doesn’t his imagination counter her’s? What if a mage turned off their magic sense and didn’t know the cloak had a defensive spell? They’d be able to imagine cutting the seemingly normal cloak right? Why does it work to block spells when the caster can’t see that they cast a defensive spell? if the only reason a defensive spell works is because people can’t imagine breaking it then it shouldn’t work against people who don’t know they’re not supposed to be able to break it right? And if the only thing that matters is who can imagine beating the other then why does how much mana you have matter? Übel didn’t have more mana than the first grade defensive mage she killed, so why was she able to overpower his spell?
What you should take from that, is that the human understanding of magic in Frieren is far from perfect. They have a method, they know it kind of works and they teach it - and then some wildcard comes along and proves that actually, no, they don't understand it at all. Ubel's method works for her because she wasn't taught in the environment that led all those other mages to beleive that the magic in that cloak was impervious the moment they saw it.
the way I think its working is her spell simply produces the effect of cutting and the easier something is to cut the more Ubel can cut it. cloth is cloth. even if it had enough magic imbued into it to make the wearer indestructible
Magic here is just reality warping. Most mages relied on logic and common sense. Ubel relied on feeling. Sure, logic and common sense declared that magical attacks is blocked by defense magic, but Ubel feels that cloth is cloth so her magic cuts through that mage anyways.
The writing here is almost like a stroke of genius really. What made the cloak impenetrable was the ungodly amount of mana poured into it, to the point where destroying that magic layer seemed impossible. In other words it was the magic layer that made it strong, not the fabric itself. Even if he did try to visualize the cloth itself not being cut, it's not as easy as cutting it with scissors.
Just because you can see and visualize yourself doing something, doesn't mean you will be capable of it, common reason and logic still exist. Reelseiden goes by one simple rule of it can cut anything Übel thinks it can cut, that's how her magic works, but that's not how ALL magic works, Übel is just clinically insane which makes her a genius when it comes to magic because of visualization. She doesn't follow common logic. Humans apparently can't bite their finger off because our brains don't let us do that, and if you know this fact you definitely can't bite your finger off and most mages with common logic as you see most do in the anime restrategize and find some other way. But Übel's brain and the way Reelseiden works isn't based on logic, Übel knows logically she can't bite off her finger, but she feels that she can and that's good enough for her to bypass that brain function. If Burg's magic worked with the rule that he can defend against anything he thinks he can defend against, magic visualization would come into play in the literal sense, except he only just puts on defensive magic, on top of that Reelseiden is basically invisible, there's no visualization against that. She doesn't think she can cut defensive magic so she can't. The visualization isn't an all-encompassing rule, its just a better way to think of magic, some characters like Übel just have some weird magic that attunes to that part of the brain completely.
I think the rock-pappers-scissors still works to a degree. The show has shown that there clearly defined offensive and defensive types of spells (scissors and rock) and some spells that change things about the enviroment or even disable you completely (restraints and hypnosis magic or even controlling elements to shape the battlefield that can give you openings - paper). But with how complex and versataile spells can be these arent hard lines and more so labels.
The anime also explains defensive magic. If you observe how frieren fights her own copy, she uses spells to defend herself against anything that isn't Zoltraak. The only time she uses defensive magic is against her copy's Zoltraak. That's because the defensive magic was developed specifically for Zoltraak but it was also functional for other magics as well. Zoltraak needed something to counter it, because at the time there was no way to defend against it. Your head cannon might also be correct in that it was a collaborative effort, and people made it into a versatile spell. However the anime also says that the defensive spell hasn't really been developed much further. There's only "the one defensive spell" because it's relatively a recent advancement. It's also so specialized to defend against magic that it's not good at defending against physical impacts
What I like the most about magic in Frieren is how so many ancient or rare spells aren't made for combat. Instead they show us what the people and societies deemed important or perhaps annoying enough to solve using magic. The spell that creates a field of flowers while important to many characters also shows that back in the ancient days of this world someone cared about beauty enough to formulate a spell that can create it. It's this kind of non-combat magic that really makes this series stand out and highlights what matters in the story.
I think the rock paper scissor thing is a very simple analogy but a more apt one would be fighting game matchups. Some characters will have a better time against others because of how their ability interact but you still have low tiers and high tiers and a high tier is a character that has a lot of favorable matchup but that typically stems from having simply stronger moves that deal more damage than average or are faster or recover faster, in frieren world this would be the amount of mana, the speed of your casting and the control over your mana, someone can improve those things and overcome a bad matchup but someone can also beat a more experienced mage by haviing a matchup that line up perfectly for them. And again to continue with the analogy, it's totally possible for a character to be top tier but just happen to have a terrible matchup against a character that's otherwise awful. Because they have a fatal flaw or because the other character happen to do things in a way that line up amaziingly to counter that other character despite being bad against everyone else. So yeah taking that viewpoint it works better, the rock paper scissor is just the simplest version of it you can imagine but it doesn't capture the complexity of having different tiers of power in the meta.
I agree with this assessment, this is exactly why in the last arc of the anime the Frieren said that the one who "could" beat her was Fern. In terms of Stats and Abilities Freiren is about as stacked as possible, but Fern can cast quicker than she may be able to react in time. Fern knows this about herself and has no mercy in abusing spam attacks if she thinks she can pummel you into submission. After all, if you are forced into total defensive mode, its really hard to break out of it. Magically speaking, Fern is a machine gun, and damn if they arent good at suppressing an opponent.
Interestingly enough, when the idea of visualization was introduced, it actually reminded me of Magical Index's esper abilities. In that show, espers are making their "personal realities" into actual reality. Ubel is basically doing the same here albeit on a more simplistic level. Cloth is meant to be cut, she basically imposes this reality onto the guy before cutting him down.
The reason ordinary defensive magic doesn't have a name is because it doesn't originate as a single spell. It is a composite of many spells designed to block magic spells of all varieties. Zoltraak is no different. Frieren knows it's name because she knew who invented it and how it is called yet to a human who does not. It is just ordinary offensive magic. If frieren knows the name of that defensive spell or it's origins is unknown though.
Flight is also a relatively recent spell that the humans (and frieren) reverse engineered from demons and now all of them know it and it’s considered basic
"genius of magic system" Meanwhile: I imagine and it happens *mind blown*. What about learning magics and creating new ones in academy and such? No just imagine.
she killed the guy accidentally because she asked the guy if his cloak wont be destroyed or cut so she attacked with alot of strength thinking he'd survive
Mage: "The stronger your ego, the stronger you are." Demon: "Exactly. That's why humans can't beat demons." Frieren: "Friggin' conceited and careless."
Random mage with God complex: "throughout the heaven and earth, i alone am the honored one" *proceeds to wipe countries with unblockable testicular torsion, that works on every creature doesnt matter the anatomy, cause he believe in it hard enough*
I love how spell combos are used. There's that guy who uses a spell to conjure a field of flowers, and then uses a second spell that turns pedals into flying metal blades.
It doesn’t actually have to take a genius or super powerful mage to be strong in Frieren. Since magic is a world of visualization, all it takes is for one mage to thing “why not?” This is what Ubel does, but it’s more suited towards her cutting magic. But another person doesn’t have to be unhinged to just think “I’mma do it, just cuz I can”. Somebody like Gojo or Sukuna would be unstoppable in this world as they are in theirs, simply because of their mindset. “Nah, I’d win.” And they’d win
Makes sense than why Frieren is so powerful, her mindset is much more open to the idea of magic itself rather than most are. It is implied that despite being 1000+ years old, Frieren is still young by comparison to other elves. And I think that is shown in how her mind still having that ability to capture the idea that magic can be well magical. Since how you think shapes how you use magic and what kind you can make, that shows how Frieren has that childlike wonder in regard to magic. Thus the greatest magical attacks are just as amazing as the most mundane spell for mundane tasks. To her, all magic is magical.
That is why she collects spells, even the most mundane and useless ones - they all broaden her horizons of what is possible, which in turn makes it easier for her to weave other magics or break the "unbreakable" shield.
When it comes to Ubel's cutting magic, it is clever flip of concepts that makes it work different from normal cutting spells. "To cut" is to "Bit hardness against hardness" so to defend against "Cut" you just need harder material. However, as ubel explains it, cloth is just cloth and she learned to cut from her sewer sister. so we have to change "To cut" to concept that has to do with cloth specifically to understand her magic. "Sever" is what you do with cloth. You don't cut it, you sever it, and to sever something is to split it apart. Take a piece of paper and start pulling at two ends to opposing directions. The paper is going to be split apart, which when done cleanly looks like a cut. But when it is jagged, it suddenly isn't a cut, it has been severed. So all ubel is actually doing is clean severing based off of how sewer severs cloth. Then our caped class 1 mage is defending against severing with hardness. Well, if you pull metal apart hard enoungh, it's still going to be severed no matter how hard the metal itself is.
Frieren’s magic system reminds me of how the lanterns work in DC. With the green lantern, his willpower fuels the constructs that he can create I with his imagination, and his powers are only limited by his willpower and creativity. That’s why it always made sense to me. God I love this show 😭
I like the distinction of folk magic in Frieren. It implies that even regular people who just happen to have a bit of magical talent are still out there making spells for their own use.
If someone had asked me to explain what magic was before I saw this anime, I'd have been hard pressed to give an answer before I started watching anime, but after I started watching it, my answer would have been rather simple. Magic is what happens when something you can imagine cannot be easily explained from your own personal perspective. The fact that the magic system of Frieren is not only based entirely on imagination, but could actually be explained by its wielders through the grimiores they create is so perfect to me that I cannot help but love it. When Ubel cut through the proctor for the exam simply because she could imagine cutting his cloak, it's simple to explain but I believe it's more complex than that: He couldn't imagine anyone getting through the cloak, while Ubel could. At that moment, she had imagination while he didn't, which to me is why it was so easy for her to not only cut the cloak but cut him as well.
Mages are artists! And i love it! Art isnt a talent, its a skill built over time and the only true way to get better is to understand the fundementals and theory and practice. Some people start out with a little bit more visual capabilities- with more vivid imaginations but it still takes a lot of work, and art always has room for improvement and refinement. Frieren believing that enjoyment comes from the persuit of magic rings true for art as well. If you where perfect, all the time, and never tried new materials or tecniques- you'll get bored of your art.
actualy, Ubel used as an example and a counterexample of that "visualizing" theme. in one hand she can cut through nearly unbreakable defence by visualizing the cuting of the thing it attached to. in other hand, she can't cut though common defencive barrier, because she never saw it being cut, it always shatter like a glass. so she can belive as hard as she want, that she can cut it, but if she can't imagine the process ecactly how it should look like in reality, she can't do it. the point here is how it should ACTUALY look like if it were actualy cut, wrong visualisation will lead to no result. its the same as you trying to imagine breaking metal bar, if you imagine it breaking like stone or wood, it won't happen, you should imagine it breaking like metal does, which means you need to know how metal breaks. and because of this Ubel will never be able to cut things, that can't be cut, like water.
The magic system I’ve been working on is elemental at its core but people study their magic can learn to manipulate it to do more complex things than just fire. Like using micro flames to manipulate water molecules in the air in order to refract light and make illusions. The reason wizards have to write spells out is because they’re doing stuff so complicated they can’t even think about it at the time and are just focusing on the page
Defensive magic is from my understanding just too simple in hindsight to get a name. Which is why Qual got it so fast, in theory he knew that his magic could be blocked by that all along. It's just that hardly anyone properly doing it ever used it like that because there where so few proper analyzers and that magic is just a huge mana dump you would never use without good reason. And Zoltraak introduced the mainstream reason. It's just focussed mana pressure. So it's just Zoltraak but you don't just wildly blast it at people. Which is why Ubel can't cut it. But she can cut all the mediums used to save mana in defense. It has a lot of: you get what you pay for. Elemental magic is elegant corner cutting by controlling existing objects. Burg's defense was mostly geared towards modern magic flinging objects at him. A build designed around the meta. Not some weirdo specialized in cutting directly destroying his medium. Some weirdo that mind you also was just generally very powerful additionally, bad combo.
I think there is something more to imagination that hasn't been explained because: - Frieren stated that she can't imagine winning against Kanne with a rainy day but let's be real... she would obliterate her - Sense says that Übel has an innate talent/is a prodigy, which IMO implies that she can bypass defensive magic unconsciously like Qual does during the fight against Frieren/Fern when he creates a way to bypass defensive magic. Overall I like the "imagination" magic system and it feels cool and new but there is something not explained or it has its flaws.
I don't think frieren was saying she couldn't beat kanne specifically, she's saying she can't imagine beating a water mage in the rain, but I think it's more "if there was a mage of my level and we were fighting in the rain I wouldn't be able to see myself winning" which is the position richter is in. Either that or she is saying that fighting a water mage in the rain she'd think about all the way that mage would be able to crush her, even if the mage isn't at that level the fact that you know what they could be doing makes it hard to see victory. It's not a big deal if you can just blast through anyway, but it would affect performance regardless. It's a bit unclear so you might be right, but I prefer giving a more charitable interpretation of what's said considering it's obvious to anyone that frieren wouldn't lose to kanne even in the rain.
I really like Frierens magic system because it gives everyone to learn the magic, there is no limit saying you can only practice one kind, so there’s a commonality that everyone is working from the same basis, but each person comes up with a unique way that they perform magic so you get to see the diversity that comes from people devs their own styles from the same source
I love the folk magic in Frieren because they feel so fun even if they're mundane. It's rather sad seeing human magic in Frieren reflect the message of the show's story about lost memories. The mages dedicated their lives to perfect their unique personal spells that can't be use outside of combat and in danger of disappearing once they die. The folk magic are useful in daily life but they are also in danger of disappearing since there seems to be isn't much preservation attempt outside a couple of elves' obsession. Flamme's grimoires are mostly fake while barely anyone in any settlements would be able or bothered to learn and put the few local grimoires into practice.
It doesn't have one. Nothing is ever explained and new mechanics are only introduced mid-fight via five-minute flashbacks to save characters from dying.
Nice video! It came up on my algorithm and feed. I love Friren! And I love how you talk about this cause I discuss this with my boyfriend too. Good luck with your UA-cam channel! :D
Frieren's magic system reminds me of Mythbusters in one specific thing: The reason why Mythbusters worked as a show so well, is that Science as much as it is our tool for understanding the world, is also a story we tell ourselves. Science and Art are not two different things, but technically speaking comes from the same place in the human. The drive to imagine "what if". Mythbusters showed us how that works retroactively. The story of the myth gives us a deeper understanding of the world by testing it. And then also by showing what need to happen should for the story t obe true in order for the story to hold up. And as such it confirms our "what if" thought. Frieren's magic works the other way around. The "What if" is a thing that has to be understood and projects itself forward. And through the innovations of their imagination their spells evolve, become deeper and more complex, able to imagine more difficult and complex actions as well as cut down a lot of bullshit that you might not need. It's driven my imagination, the same as science, the same as art. It also imo, explains why older mages are a lot more powerful. I think with more life experience there is a lot of things to draw upon more experience to base your imagination on and understand it better. The mana for that might be the short cut to that idea.
No, the reason why Qual's Zoltraak was black is cuz he modified it that that point in time to penetrate defensive magic. Most of his other Zoltraak are also shown as white. This is why the mage that tried to fight Frieren in the last episode also used a black Zoltraak.
I love the fact Übel is basically a 40k orc "This is a cloak. It's cloth. It's made to be cut. So I cut it." "Yes but-" "It's cloth. I cut it." "No, you don't understan-" "It's cloth. Cloth is made to be cut."
I think this magic system is terrible because delusion is omnipotent. Like the show frames ubel as she isn't sane enough to realize that defensive magic should stop her but thats not right. Defensive magic CAN'T stop her so actually everyone else was insane for thinking defensive magic does anything. They all KNOW that it's based on visualization therefor ANYTHING is possible so you shouldn't logically ever think you can't do something. Of course you could cut through a defensive spell, of course you can fire an infinitely powerful laser, why couldn't you do that? Just imagine it dumbass. What does mana even do if imagination overpowers everything? Ubel cutting through that defensive spell immediately trivialized every aspect of magic talked about up to that point in the show and ensured it would never be anything other plot convenient nonsense going forward. I was so disappointed especially because it runs entirely counter to earlier in the show talking about magic development with zoltrark. Basically the show went from magic as a science to magic and an art and that ruined everything.
Pretty sure the author is going for the actual esotericism with it and looks like they've done some research into the occult and cymatics. Remember in Frieren's world it was only "magic as science" (You meant scientific study?) for men as the most possessed puny imagination and flawed perception, so applying the scientific method to study magical phenomena was the only way they could make any sense of it and knowledge births practices, which then become art (of the skill) over time. Prior to that magic was banned among people and all human mages were hunted down within their society. It was not the case for the other races such as elves and demons, who by their nature possessed powerful minds to shape the world to their liking.
It is emphasized in the very same arc that know someone isn't enough. You should be able to execute it. That why Frieren failed. Even though she has infinite mana her personality prevents her from using certain spell or getting by certain situations. That is why she needs a party. And it is the same for every mage in the series. The weakness of Ubel is that she can't cut someone she likes...
@@giogiolachance4313Did we watch the same show or you including manga info or something? That's very much not what the show told us. They definitely never once mentioned anything about Ubel not being able to cut someone she likes and her "weakness" is that she can't cut things she doesn't think she can cut, which is nonsense.
You're misunderstanding something. Defensive spells absolutely can stop Ubel - she explicitly explains that it does. She couldn't defeat Wirbel or Denken, nor could she cut through the magical barrier spell. She explains how, since the spell is supposed to block magic, it is something that she can't visualize cutting through. What she did vs Burg's cloak and Sense's hair is different: their defensive magic was woven into cloth and hair respectively, materials that she can easily visualize cutting. Ubel's particular delusion is that her instinctive belief in the cuttable properties of cloth and hair overrides her rational mind that tells her that those items were protected by defensive magic. For her, the defensive spells on them might as well not exist. So she's not cutting through the defensive spells on the cloth or hair, she's bypassing them entirely. But this is something unique to her, as any other mage using the same spell would have their rational mind be dominant instead, so they wouldn't be able to cut through Burg's cloak or Sense's hair no matter how hard they try to visualize it. Also, what this means is that Ubel isn't a hard counter to everybody else just because she was able to defeat two first class mages. Like she explains, she couldn't defeat Wirbel or Denken. She couldn't imagine cutting through the barrier spell, first of all, and both those mages are much stronger than her. Another thing to notice is that her slices carved out gouges in stone rather than cutting all the way through, and that's because stone is hard and she instinctively believes in its hardness. She can't imagine cutting straight through stone, but gouging it is possible. So Richter possibly counters Ubel, too. Another thing is that had Sense used the barrier spell on her hair (like how Richter uses the barrier spells alongside his rock barriers) rather than just relying on the defensive spells woven into the hair, then Ubel would probably have lost as those barrier spells would have defended against Ubel's cuts.
I have some resistance to the concept of visualisation beating over complexity or power of spells. On the one hand, there is a clear message that in a direct confrontation, the quantity of magic is a big factor in who wins: when slinging basic offensive spells and using barriers to protect yourself, you can't just visualize having more power than the other. That's set in stone. Your skill can lead you to victory, such as using a burst of power when the opponent has his guard down, but if the both are in full frontal assault the biggest mana pool wins. The main reason Frieren and Fern walk over demons all the time is that they go full psychological warfare by manipulating how much mana they emit. And then suddenly it doesn't matter how strong your defensive spell, or even how much you visualize yourself as being indestructible, I can visualize cutting you better. However, visualizing yourself being resistant to Zoltraak (if I even spelled it correctly) isn't just a matter of belief, it's the creation of a complex spell that is very efficient but power hungry. I also don't understand how a spell can both be developed as visualisation, and written as tomes. Of course the story doesn't describe this, but it's kind of hard to imagine how visualizing yourself doing something could be transcribed. So either cut-lady is a complete freak and her divergent mindset allows her to bypass normal spell crafting, or the system is somewhat contradictory. Don't get me wrong, the magic system perfectly serves the narrative purpose for which it is created, but it does so by asking to not overthink it. The strength of the show is not in the intricacy of the magic system, but how much personality it allows characters to express themselves using it.
My understanding is that Ubel can't cut defensive magic itself. The spell still works as normal for and against her. What makes her scary is that when magicians imbue stuff with spells, she can disrupt the material directly, which disrupts the spells. She's also noted to learn spells via empathy/instinct/observation rather than study. I'd be really curious to see how grimoires work, rather they're formula or more like guided meditation prompts.
Frieren likes to equate its magic to IRL science / technology. So a mage visualizing a spell would be equivalent to Newton inventing calculus and the mage writing the spell as a tome would be Newton writing down the formalism in his Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica. If you think it like that, Ubel is just a genius who can understand certain aspects of reality subconciously and apply them quick ( She is Newton inventing and applying math all the time and on the fly).
@@kris1123259 My problem with that interpretation is that as a reader, it is not clear why some things are impossible and others aren't. If being able to visualize something makes it possible, wouldn't insane wizards be capable of creating any spell? How is Frieren's calculations to dispel a barrier different from Ubel visualization that cuts everything? Why is one math and the other belief? I understand that you can write rules that come from your head. But a visualization isn't a math equation. If a spell is being able to see yourself cast a spell that does an action, how the hell do you write that? Again, this is light nitpicking, because I don't think the intricacies of the magic system are a core part of the show.
@thomaslacroix6011 I think you may be reading into the visualization dialogue too much. The fact that magic is typically learned through grimoires is as kris said, it is likely a collection of formulas and support for the reader to interpret and learn from as guidance for the creation and use of the spell. For instance, the flower creation spell that Frieren learned from her master. She was likely given a grimoire on the spell that taught her how to create flowers but what kind of flowers? Any kind of flower? Likely she could not create flowers without an idea of what a flower is, and more than likely the spell does not allow you to create flowers that don't exist because you would be creating new species of flower hence she had to have a real representation of a flower to "visualize" its creation. The example of which she pulled from memory after seeing Himmel's favorite flower. As for power levels I think there is a visualization and confidence are tied here. We have already understood that visualization is tied to learning magic but its also tied to confidence. Frieren does not have the confidence she can beat the water mage when its raining because she controls all water and could likely overwhelm Frieren. The earth mage once it started raining, understood that all this water would benefit the water and ice mage which disrupted his mana and made him weaker. It is more like the mage thinks they can't win or do something before they even try which results in them unable to do it because they have convinced themselves to be unable to do it. As for Ubel. Several characters have called her crazy which she is. For her, she learns magic based on empathy rather than study but she has the ability to rationalize magic as magic unless it relates to physical objects in the world which she can separate from magic. The instance with the mage having defense spells on his cloak is a good example. Fundamentally, the cloak exists and is strengthen by the defense magic and a fundamental mage would see that as i have to get through the magic to cut the cloak. Ubel sees the cloak and the magic separate because the coat exists, why cut through the magic to get to the cloak when the cloak itself is just cloth. However, a magic defense spell by itself is not something she understands and thus cannot cut through it. However, Sense's hair, something that is typically cut, can be cut regardless of the spell magic Sense puts on it. I think you raise a good question about insane mages. So far, outside of Framme who created a significant portion of magic spells, people typically have one personal magic and lots of learned magic. By Ubel's own words and support from Wirbel, personal magic you create is an extension of yourself. Ubel learns magic from intuition and empathy rather then the old read a book method. It would be safe to say all insane mages would do the same. Creating it however, would likely be much harder because she can only pull from her understanding of reality: example, creates spell that cuts physical objects based on her experience with her sister's tailoring job cutting and repairing cloth. She could not however create a blackhole or use flying magic because they likely dont understand blackholes and humans can't typically fly.
@@SpareJoker gonna be honest I'm not reading all that, but it is true that I might be reading too much into the visualization bit. I just feel like I'm being teased about a complex system without being able to see what studying magic actually looks like. Which feels like there's just enough to suppose it is coherent but I don't have the actual proof.
How I would describe the difference between Frieren's magic system and the traditional ones we see in Shonen, is that it's more reminiscent of a soft magic system, but still is given a similar level of depth and attention to those hard magic systems in other series. As an example, in JJK, we know what cursed energy is: negative energy created by emotions. We know how it spreads through the world: normal humans can't control it. We know how it is harnessed: By being able to take the slightest emotions and have them generate your cursed energy. We know who can use it: Curses and people with brains of a certain structure. And finally, we know what it can be used for: Basic physical enhancement, or an individual's cursed technique that they obtain at birth. In Frieren, we know none of these things, magic simply exists, some people use it, and it seems like it can do anything, as long as you're dedicated enough to create a spell to achieve some task. And yet, the development of magic and how certain spells work is given almost the same amount of detail as how these entire other systems work. And that's what makes the magic system special. It really feels like fantasy. In stories where we know practically everything about the magic system, it becomes basically indistinguishable from sci-fi, a set of systems that follow particular rules and work in particular ways that stay constant throughout the story. There's nothing wrong with this approach, everyone loves a good fight between characters with interesting and well-explained abilities, but you can't deny that it doesn't really feel as "magical" anymore. Frieren's does.
Frieren told fern that cleaning clothes with magic is an ancient mythic spell. Meanwhile the current mages use magic only for battle and past magic were use for convenience and day to day work and was forgotten by the current era mages. A contradiction to Mashle where he question why everyone relies on magic all the time.
I agree with you, I believe that Magic in Frieren's universe ultimately comes down to the power of visualization. For instance, since Ubel spent her whole childhood watching her sister sewing, she gained a deep visual memory of the act of physically cutting something and applying her talent which could be characterized by a strong sense of visualizing and perceiving the world around her (empathy) she potentially was able to expand her magic to contain other people's magical abilities. In essence, according to the Mangaka's portrayal, magical abilities boils down to possessing a strong visual memory tailored to a specific specialty, as previously mentioned. Additionally, I also believe that spells in Frieren are basically repositories containing specefic information which aid in the detailed visualization of various phenomena. They offer insights to foster a deep understanding of the physical mechanics at play, thereby enhancing the visualization process.
I wonder will they get double mana if they visualize (idk correctly or non correctly) themself get double mana from the original mana used? If yes then will they need to imagine it base on logic (correctly) or just spawn it from the only visualization (non correctly) If no then is there a special boundary that you can visualize? (limiter)
Yes! I wanted to start a channel this summer and one video I wanted to make was Frieren's magic system with Ubel as a medium to highlight the GOOD aspects of a magic system, where a character can become as strong as possible but a fatal flaw mixed with the others confidence in an ability allows for a wide range of possibilities while writing
I think the reason some spells don't have names is for practical purposes. My guess is that the spell name serves as a mnemonic to aid with visualization, but they are optional. We see all kinds of spells that aren't named when casting, like the flying spell or the bird binding spell. Saying a name takes time and concentration and time is of the essence in a fight, so being able to cast defensive magic instinctively without thinking about it is a survival advantage. Same with flying.
The Ubel visualization should be also compared to Frieren breaking the barrier in the first test. The proctor said it was a barrier spell from Serie and it is IMPOSSIBLE to break. He couldn't visualize it ever being broken and he himself would never be able to do it. Frieren investigates magic and finds joy in learning and exploring magic. If Frieren believes it can be analyzed and broken... then it can be. Serie is mad when it is broken because instead of it being unbreakable, NOW mages will hear it can be broken and can try to visualize it and will break it more often now. This also fits the theme of the hero party and the show. Himmel couldn't pick up the 'hero sword' and could have given up or just failed or left. The 'power of belief' or you don't 'care' what the rest of the world says or what disadvantages you might have, you will try anyway. The one who 'calculates' or visualizes too much of their constraints or failures in life, will be constrained and can be stuck and fail. The one who keeps pushing forward may struggle and falter but by getting up every day and trying they can eventually win or 'visualize' and break through. We haven't seen the hero party battle vs the demon king but Frieren says they won together. The cowardly warrior stayed to fight with his friends, the fake hero, drunk priest, and the 'failed peaceful mage' are the ones who did it and I am expecting 100% it is because of Himmel and the others believing in themselves because of they believed in each other. Demon King casts a unbreakable/unstoppable spell. Frieren gives up. She can see it is unbreakable and pointless. Himmel shows it ISN'T unbreakable with his fake sword. If Frieren 'sees' it can be stopped then it becomes possible. Ubel is a 'superpower' as a single entity but Frieren (and friends who believe in you) are an even bigger superpower. However, it is entirely reasonable and power scaled because everyone can have the synergy to work together and try. it also explains why Serie is such a verbal jerk to everyone and why she asks pointed questions. What do you visualize? She didn't want to pass Denken but when Denken said he THOUGHT about fighting Serie, fighting the impossible despite knowing it is impossible to win, Serie passed him.
I love that Ubel and Fern are clearly OP but they are still threatened by other mages and situations because they are rarely fighting 1v1 in ideal conditions.
That is how humans use it. Demons use it inately, humans can't learn demon magic because they are incapable of understanding demons. Ubel is the most pure magic user among the humans, she makes no effort to understand it, she just does it.
Defensive magic having no unique name is like trying to give square a unique name, its name is its form . At least that's what i took from the whole thing, it has only defensive effect, so the idea of it being a general human thought invention is a good point.
I like that Übel is an anomally in this world mostly because other people understand that they can IMAGINE the cloth being cut, being deep down they now that wont happen, but Übel is not sane enough to understand that fantasy and reality are not the same. So in her mind she doesn't IMAGINE the cloth being cut, she KNOWS she is going to cut it even thought reason should stop her.
I will admit i do see a lot of similarities between this and my magic system though i will ironically say my system has even more constraints. Specifically as a few examples 1 that magic is Very hard to Externalize and any form of spell usually requires physical attachment to the caster iregardless of what your making (so for example an explosion requires you to create and contain the detonation in your hands before launching it) unless your neae the top tier of caster and even then most are limited to a few Kilometres with Prep time. 2 but as a byproduct of this increased difficulty with creating something with magic, things created with it are far more Tangible and Real and nothing created with magic is temporary (at best its a Singularity or portal that collapses once not being fed energy to keep it open). 3 that my setting isnt A fantasy world but a more Real world Psudo Modern Layered Multiverse (crossing universes is common but on average most universes are at a modern day tech level) and with sciences high pressure magic is inherently being restricted by scientific understanding. 4. Ultimately though magic in my setting is split into multiple parts that all come together in different concentrations to form a spell, the foundation(beliefs found in the self but not of the self forming a basic structure you can use to form your magic from), the Self(the personal experience the emotional Reaction more Potent and innate but due to the nature of it spells based in the self are hard to share so others can cast unless rhey replicate the effects and not the process one way self based magic is created is through traumatic events awakening magic in the person being traumatized) , and the world (science, the known magic based in this direction instead bases itself on manipulation of what is over the creation of that which is not and on the high end snd with the aid of a seperate "Magic"(called Arc Magic) system in my setting can even be used to correct things like a Hole in Physics that only the peak of intelligence could find. 5 that the interplay between science and magic is a critical focus of my setting with their being group's on both sides that reject the other and groups in the Middle that seek to unifiy science and magic (well Modern Magic) 6 that old magic is actually a seperate system entirely based on the same world side that science uses but due dwindling collective belief in the properties of these things old Magics effects have been drastically reduced to the point that most of it is considered lost completely as scientific understanding invalidates Symbolic Beliefs and wills 7 Arc or Arc magic i will Best Describe in Alchemical terms to understand its nature, the prima materia or Philosophers stone that alchemy always strives to create usually end before the True final Step not Aware of its existence and though this red stone does Grant Great Power and strength it is still Ultimately constrained to the world and can't overwrite or reject Reality but Arc magic Can if regularly magic allows you to Create things from the self and make them real then Arc Magic is Taking your self and putting it Above Reality 99.999....% of people will never awaken Arc Magic let alone witness its existence as it requires A tremendous will to Awaken and with that will they gain Extraordinary Power an Example event that can Awaken Arc magic though only on a small Scale is A near Death scenario as the Arc Magic Awakens to allow your will to survive to give your body just enough strength to survive, the final step in creating a perfect philosophers stone is not the Reversion of your material sample to a contsined form of prima materia but instead the stage of caesitas(Deadbess/Blueness) as the Stones Connection to the world is killed and it becomes independent from the world able to freely alter it similar to a fully realised Arc magic wielder
Magic is a world of visualization and so is art, if you have the exact vision for the type of painting or music you want to make, you'll execute it well, but only as long as you have the capabilities to do so. Just because you have the vision to make something doesn't mean you can, unless you, lets say for example you were never taught piano, but you mess around and know what sounds good just by putting notes together. You can't play sheet music, or copy songs from ear, but you create brilliant melodies and harmonies from just your own understanding of it.
Similar approach to personal magic in the "Millennial Mage" series. A lot of the way magic works depends on the mages understanding of how it works, the deeper their understanding the more defined their power is and the utility they can get from it, but if someone fundamentally alters your understanding it can really mess you up if it conflicts with your own.
The best part of Nen is that it doesn't scale upward which allows it to circumvent raised stakes in the story. Someone with a particularly unremarkable aura can defeat someone with an immense aura if they use the right Nen. The solutions to the conflicts consequently never boil down to just getting stronger. They more often about getting smarter, taking a different approach to the problem, or finding alternative solutions that stop the problem from being a problem in the first place. This gives the writer and characters tons of flexibility and creative license that most magic systems don't allow and makes it so the stakes can rise or fall or be big and existential or small and personal and each will be just as interesting as the other because there's no way to reduce the conflict to a stronger power against a weaker one. The vast majority of other magic systems eventually fall into the trap of doing nothing but introducing stronger and stronger opponents until the conflict is too over-the-top to be relatable and too repetitive and predictable to be compelling. Definitely an A+ system.
Magic system in Frieren is just visualization. The World helps those who dream and hope. Himmel while having no real fate as a hero became a real hero just because he "wants" to do it. He wills it so and became strong along the way.
It's a very soft magic system. Therefore we see people with wildly different magic types like cutting, clones, earth, water, ice, etc. There's the two basic magics everyone knows being zoltraak and defensive magic, but other then that everyone pulls up their individual spells or magic type out of their ass. It's pretty common in anime nowadays actually as it is also seen in Black Clover and My Hero. The only thing limiting you is your raw strength and imagination.
Idk, id like to think frieren isnt necessarily a fourth option in rock paper scissors, but has been around long enough to have all three in her back pocket, and play whichever she needs to at the moment. Like a more accurate take is when you play slightly later than your friend so you could react to what they played and play the right one to win
![[UA] Team Vitality проти NAVI | IEM Cologne 2024](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/wttO1zVRTC0/mqdefault.jpg)
Sense: how did you cut trough a cloak with infinite defensive magic?!
Ubel: Cloth is cloth!
On the other hand, the Cloak Mage thought nothing could harm him and it didn't work.
@@1Maklak yeah it's an inbuilt deux ex system -- which most magic systems are the deeper you dive into them, but this one just blatantly says it out loud and gets rid of trying to justify itself or corner itself -- anything can happen at any time, basically -- it's just as genius as it is stupid
@@IrregularPineapples To be fair. They acknowledge you need to be batshit insane to be able to break this system like this. The Impression I get is delulu levels of insane because normal people are literally holding themselves back because of how they see reality.
@@arnowisp6244 another thing I think about it is the magic is based entirely on imagination. so Ubel's ability to imagine cutting is insane because shes obsessed with cutting
@@IrregularPineapplesit's basically the most complicated rock paper scissors game. Sense said that even though magic is about visualization and believing, there is so much you can do about a matchup. An Ant can believe and see itself defeating a dragon, but the dragon is the rock and the ant is the scissor no matter how much you believe, by the rule of the world, the ant would unlikely defeat the dragon. With ubel, she is Scissor and the defense mages were paper (because the defense tied to his clothes). The matchup already favored Ubel and Her extreme delusion. If the paper were made of steel, it still can be cut by proper tools.
"magic is based on visualisation" but usually you build your visualisation based on your logic and understanding, ubel is an anomaly that builds perfect visualisation with just a feeling
If Christianity was a part of frieren. Jesus summoning magic would be everywhere
Hard to call her visualization perfect. What could Ubel do against Fern or Freiren? She would only be able to rely on their mercy. Ubel’s advantage against Sense and the cloth strengthening magician was not an absolute advantage against of magicians of equivalent strength, but stemmed from fundamental limitations in their own approaches to magic. They both got too clever by half, and relied too much on unique magics which multiplied their strengths in most cases but them left them with Achilles’ heels. Instead, if they had stuck with developing more conventional approaches instead of becoming so dependent on their unique magics, Ubel would not have been able to cut them down like that.
So, while Ubel is certainly special, she was only as strong against those two because of fundamental weaknesses in their own magics that she could exploit.
@@keoghanwhimsically2268 Ubel sorganeal is enough to defeat fern. The only way fern stands a chance is if fern has ambushed ubel or cast zoltrack faster than ubel reaction speed . So ubel doesn’t really need to rely on fern mercy. Her sorganeal is already way enough to deal with fern in face to face confrontation
@@hyjjjkyikk3158 Hahaha! Are you trolling? If you actually believe this, you have no clue about the story’s characters or how its magic system works.
(For those paying attention, both anime and manga have already shown enough so far to suggest that Fern is on her way to becoming a Grand Mage, alone among the current age human mages.)
@@keoghanwhimsically2268 if that’s the case use “manga fern “dang it. Also ubel also got her own type of magic from Serie which we have no idea of so let’s not be to quick to judge. It’s possible ubel got magic as dangerous as curse reflection magic. Fern in the anime or the manga has yet to develop any sort of counter to sorganeal . So I don’t see how you think fern could just straight up ignore sorganeal and zoltrack her. Manga fern asset to kill ubel is to cast zoltrack fast . But even then ubel has another magic spell from Serie so you can’t just jump into the conclusion she would win without knowing ubel other spell
I love how tame the magic spells appear, at least visually, up until Frieren fights herself and you're just left sitting there like, "oh.....DAMNNMNNMM she knows MAGIC magic."
Can't wait to hopefully see a second season!
Here I was worried she really only could use zoltraak in battle!
She was part of the party that defeated the FREAKING DEMON KING, I'd hope she was at least first class level of strength at that point + she defeated a demon by herself before she even met Flamme, so she's probably known magic for 300+ years
You don't use cannon to slap a mosquito
Really adds to her dismissiveness of "modern mages," too. There ain't anyone who can throw down like that anymore, defensive magic has hampered their creativity too much. Thus, all you need to do is just hammer them until they stop.
A very lazy approach, but it works for her and would probably work for anyone with the right mindset, given that Fern can pull it off too.
@@Luffy-su1ho More like 1000+ years
I like that it's not overly complicated. It's flexible enough to suit characters traits by being unique to their persona whole restrictive to the will of the user
It’s complicated in its simplicity.
I like how Frieren treats magic the same way an artist treats their art. Your imagination is your paintbrush, and your mana is the paint. It also provides a great contrast against Serie, who only cares for the result her magic can have, not the process nor any utility beyond "I am more powerful than my opponent".
good analogy
The manga is more descriptive. There is magic that humans and demons use. Generally, the demons come up with something and the humans adapt it or defend against it. (Flamme made magic available to humans. Before her, humans shunned magic because demons used it.) Ubel is a human who casts magic like a demon. But, there is another magic and that is the magic of the goddess. Her spells are in the holy book that Methode and priests use. They are still decoding spells from their Bible. So, demons use magic intuitively and humans engineer magic as an applied science. It is a very interesting world.
The goddess magic is a third thing. Humans use magic like a science isn't really right they do just copy demons or the godess to start with but they make their magic better or different which is where the science comes into it. Zoltrak and the defensive magic are so effective as a baseline because they are simple concepts that don't interact with visualization well. You cant imagine cutting a defensive barrier made of magic better or worse because there's nothing to relate it to so it just becomes who has more mana / can cast more, basic competency and speed of casting is all that matters. Hence fern is bullshit. You can get better efficiency out of other spells but they start to be counterable.
Visualization comes into play when you start to use magic to manipulate concepts, matter and forces to produce an effect.
If you spend all your time visualizing a super stronk cloak someone can just imagine cutting the fabric then their spell only has to interact with each thread individually and becomes able to cut it easily. If you made the outside also have a visual normal defensive barrier it becomes uncuttable to ubel but weaker vs other mages. Any conclusion a demon or ubel comes to instinctively that actually works as magic still works through a scientific principle ultimately. Which is why the human magic tends to win out eventualy.
They refer to the goddess magic as "miracles" which comes from humanity seeing it as a blessing upon themselves before they learned how to cast spells using their own influence. Miracles do not follow the rule of imagination, but instead follow intent. Things such as "heal, restore, smite". It is less flexible, hence why not everyone can use it.
@@chrislepera6541 It's more subtle than that. Casters have to have the ability to cast most miracles, hence people who are called priests. Mages can cast simple miracles using scripture. Curses are a third type of magic that is cast by demons/monsters, but cannot be understood easily by mages. Priests may be able to analyze curses to some extent. Mages can as well, but it involves searching the memories of the monster who casts the cursed magic.
@@johnmoore8599I would image some tank adventurer specializing in Goddess magic and physical combat (oh wait there is a Kraft the Monk). Heiter for example practically could walk in and become 1st class mage since his mana pool was so huge and he could buff not only him but also his party members to point where they won’t need to eat or breath for entire month and other buffers.
Heiter also could have been really powerful mage if he wanted but he chose goddess magic instead and I don’t know why.
@@viljaminieminen6925 It was implied in the anime that priests had an innate talent for casting miracles, hinting that it was a genetic component. There was never any granting of the Goddess' Blessing to a caster as far as I know. One was just born with it. Nothing has been said if paladins exist in this world. Himmel comes close, but he was a knight in the spirit of Lancelot. And, Kraft was just a monk. He never cast spells. He was just an extremely talented martial and spiritual artist.
Übel is not sane enough to understand that the defense magic _should_ stop her - so it doesn't.
She casts spells without any understanding of the mechanics. She kinda reminds me of a demon. Like she is related to a Spiegel.
honestly, her being half demon would explain a LOT
@@deathshop2172 She is either a horrible human, or the demon with the most empathy.
I am not sure which option is worse, given her powers.
Oi, spoiler.
That's just half correct she her states that she can't get past defensive magic since she believes that's how it works she was able to cut serie and the other guy because they weave their defenses in something she knows can be cut
In short, she cuts through it because she only feels mana and can't see the actual barrier
so defense magic only works if you understand it? kinda dumb
Ubel is a great character because she serves as a means to clarify the explanation of the magic system. She does this by being unusual, but not technically an exception to the rules.
She's like that "weird" kid who does math completely differently from the way the instructor teaches it, but still arrives at the same answer.
How to describe Übel: "I can't fix her. Please help me."
Yup, when she speaks with other characters you can't even tell if she's just doing it in hopes of getting their power or because she's actually trying to interact.
As soon as she found out that Fern only uses the most basic spells to fight she immediately switched her focus onto the clone guy.
@@BM-13_KATYUSHAshe uses language and communication in a similar way to demons. Using empathy to attain power and for no other purpose.
@@misanthropicservitorofmars2116 I noticed that too but another comment already suggested a theory that she's a half demon which would, in that commenter's words "explain a lot"
@@BM-13_KATYUSHA She's so scary that people wouldn't be surprised if she was a demon
@@SpinDuality It would be too easy, I'm sure that she's sick, unfixable human
There appear to be two different versions of Zoltraak. One white, one black.
The white is the version modified by humans. It's attuned specifically to damage demons, and as a result seems to do less damage to humans (or at least to be more easily defended against with internal mana), as we've seen multiple instances where humans were hit with it (albeit by glancing blows) but not fatally injured.
The black is the original, the one created by Qual, and is attuned toward damaging humans. From what Lügner says after first encountering Fern (who hits him with the white version), demons "conquered it" decades ago, so it can be assumed it no longer does much damage to them.
Defensive magic appears to protect against both similarly, with the comparative strengths of the Zoltraak and defense casters appearing to have the greatest impact on how long it takes to burn through the defense or whether it can even be done.
All demons who have been shown using Zoltraak have used the black version. Most humans naturally use the white, but some humans have been shown being able to use the black or use both. Frieren has used both the white and (via her replica) the black, and Lernen notably used the black in his attack on Frieren. Notably, both mages were around and practicing magic before the creation of the white version, so it's probably safe to assume that that's probably the version they initially learned, especially considering Frieren is credited as helping develop the himan usage of-and protection from-Zoltraak.
and you can increase the density of zoltrack tooo😂😂😂
@@ZhuGeLiang6969yeah, tbh, I don’t remember anyone being fatally hit with the white zoltrack, mostly bcs the only time I remeber it happening was during the first class mage arc with fern..
(No other arc has human v human interactions after first class, besides the occasion scuffle, so idk where it would be shown.)
@@heilamwether8911 I'm not sure what Frieren hit Denken with to end their battle, but she was tossing white Zoltraaks at him throughout the fight. I always assumed he tanked one at the end, which is what drained his mana. Am betting his robe gives him some extra protection, as well, given that it's the uniform of an Imperial Mage. If so, it adds a bit to his character that he took it off before throwing hands at the end of the first test. He didn't want to have an unfair advantage...
One cool thing i noticed about Lernen is that he also has his own developed version of Zoltraak: He turned them into a destructive orb that effortlessly shred through 3 of frieren's shield (which Fern failed to get through) and only slightly missed Frieren
My thoughts on “conquering” zoltraak is that they evolved it to its zenith and can’t be developed to be any stronger
What I like about the magic system is that it creates a very interesting juxtaposition with the miracles of the goddess. It’s explained that despite it functionally being indistinguishable from a spell the source and effects of the miracles are even to the world inhabitants just…..well magical. They perform their effect without any logical explanation or ability to recreate them. And they all require that you possess some form of tome from the goddess and have at least a little faith. This existing at the same as the magic system is cool to me since it makes both more interesting just by being there together then they would be independently.
That and referring to magic that isn’t magic of the goddess nor understood human magic as curses, the reason they are curses is exactly because people don’t get how they work
Yee, you'll see a lot of spells from the pre-human era don't work based on common logic/understanding. For example *slight spoiler* Serie just has a spell that will reflect/stop all manners of spells deemed "curses". This should not be possible with the magic system but it just is.
@@Jedmonds-9173 not sure how that wouldn’t be possible with how the system was explained. Curses are simply spells that you don’t understand the core logic behind casting. So a spell that blocks another spell that you dont understand would still be logically consistent with the rules of the magic system. It just wouldn’t be feasible for an average human to conceptualize something like that. But that’s not really an exception. It more showcases the advantages of endless time for meditating on a concept.
I'll also add that in frieren there is 3 type of magic
1. Goddess magic
Goddess magic is used to heal related and you need book to use it. Master of this type of magic you can get Goddess blessing.
2. Modern magic
Mostly for combat and used to manipulate certain objects instead of creating it. Benefits of this kind of magic is faster to cast.
3. Old magic
This kind of magic can materialize objects out of thin air. Old magic is powerful, silly, and yet beautiful.
There's also Curses
The difference between old and modern is mostly just a style difference.
Defense magic changed the meta requiring the change.
Goddess magic is beyond humans and requires the Goddess favor and texts as a cipher/answer key to allow you to cast it.
Demon magic is also beyond humans cause demon minds don't function according to the same principles as human minds.
@@Clovericious I am pretty sure Frieren's "height of magic" falls under curses, just like
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Macht's magic
Ubel: "that defense can't stop me coz I can't understand it"
More like if she does understand it too much, she starts thinking it can't be cut. That's why defensive magic works. A lot of mages use physical materials like rock and hair because it costs less mana than materialising a pure magic shield.
This magic system is very conceptually similar to how technology works in real life first you imagine something and then you work to bring into reality.
I'm not sure if Yamada thought it through with the imagination/visualization thing, though; while there is magic that's a reflection of the user, the characters still learn spells by studying books and understanding the "exact mechanics" of it.
the only character whose magic is based on imagining things is Übel, and she's written as an exception to the rule. Also despite Sense stating that her visualization is detached from common sense, her "hair is meant to be cut" trick sounds more like she wields an *exaggerated* common sense.
@alficiro3238 characters study their magic and the exact mechanics is because the more exact the visualization is, the more powerful and over all full the magic is on cast. Anyone can imagine the image of creating wager from mid air, but someone who understands the spell taking in air and extracting the water by removing the elements outside of oxygen and hydrogen then you have someone able to make much more water. Ubel is someone who, in her own crazed way, figured out that anything can be cut if it is simply separated with scissors or a blade. This makes the most sense to her, and believes that she fully understands how it works and thus boosts it's power.
bad from the beginning
Programming is basically just spellcrafting with more strict rules, but more flexible control flow. It's usually treated as a science (Compete Science), but it's just as much of not more so an art. If you can visualize how to do something at the lowest level, then it's very likely that you can make a computer do it. What makes it challenging is that most people tend to think at a higher level of abstraction than is required, or they leave gaps that a human would normally be able to fill in, but a computer can't.
Also, sometimes the computer will do things you couldn't have possibly expected. People less familiar with computers are likely to get upset when this happens and either blame the machines or whoever made or programmed it. Those more familiar understand that this is something that can never be completely avoided and while it's hard to predict exactly _how_ what you've made will blow up in your face, you should always be prepared for when (not if) it does.
Computers _are_ magic and those who claim otherwise are either using a specific definition of magic as that which violates physics, or they believe they understand more than they do.
@@angeldude101 that magic is just ignorance of the full set of rules, if you build your own computer you wouldn't find any trace of magic in it (source codes get lost every time, ask gamers)
I think the most important aspect to it is the characters don't treat magic like a mystery. It's SCIENCE. They study, deconstruct and use what they learn to create something new and then they all get to use it. "Ordinary Offensive magic", "Defensive magic", hell even the ability to fly, are all the new basics because they see the utility in them.
You see this perfectly exemplified in the scene where they're trying to figure out how to deal with Frieren's clone. They sit and discuss what they know, experiment to gather more information (Methode and then Fern tested/demonstrated magic on Frieren) and then they developed a plan.
Other note on Frieren(show) as a whole, the way everything is explored from the world to the magic systems, is done by SHOWING you through the characters rather than TELLING you. The best example of this is the story showing us why demon's are evil. The scene is tragic and we FEEL it, we don't just get a "demon's killed my daughter and then tried to apologise by stealing someone elses", it's shown to us. Obviously this can't be done for everything, see Frieren narrating to Fern about Quals, but even then we see how he instantly understood and countered the defensive magic spell showing his own aptitude with magic rather than just relying on "he's one of the strongest." It's subtle but that's what makes it feel real.
That moment when Qual saw them use defensive magic, and then immediately figured out how it worked, and it's weakness was hands down the best way to show how dangerous he was
@@beauvidler3094if only he was less arrogant and immediately understood oh I need to runaway and update to catch-up with modern magic I stand no chance of fighting humans right now
I really like Übel's victory over Burg because it really emphasizes the kind of mantra of the series of "live in the moment" "get out of your head". all the other mages were unable to damage the cloak because they were overthinking all the defensive spells on it. they got into their own head so much, they were unable to grasp that it's just a cloak and so they failed.
Why wasn't Burg able to grasp that Ubel's spell was just a cutting spell though? Why did Ubel's imagination win? Burg was clearly fully confident he wouldn't be cut by it.
@@AWanderingSwordsman Burg wasn't imagining blocking Reelseiden in this moment, nor when he made the cloak. he was working in the completely theoretical mindset of "these spells should block or counter anything that could harm me." he never looked at any specific situation to counter a specific spell, aside from maybe Zoltraak.
Ubel won because she fought in the moment, Burg relied on theoretical immunities against everything, which he likely didn't imagine.
@@AWanderingSwordsman Because Übel casts entirely based on instinct. She cannot not comprehend the fundamental mechanics of magic, she just does it. She's effectively playing a completely different game.
It's like trying to win an argument against someone, and having all of the facts straight, doing all of your research, and thinking of every possible counterpoint. At the end of the day, despite all of your preparations, you can only win the argument against someone who is operating on the same wavelength as you. Someone who ALSO cares about the facts. You can never win an argument against someone who doesn't care that they're wrong.
"The Earth isn't flat, here's a million reasons why."
"Yes it is."
Übel is like a walking fallacy. Magic is so widely understood by mages, boiled down to such a science, that this belief that they understand it is a faulty preconception in and of itself. A preconception that limits imagination.
I believe Burg was so convinced that he had pooled together a defense against every single feasible method of attack, that he completely failed to consider that someone would just say "no," and refuse to play along.
Übel didn't cut it because she cast the right spell, she cut it because she is so incredibly out of touch with reality, she had the absolute GALL, the insanity, to BELIEVE that a spell she cast would cut it in the first place.
Burg expected fire, he expected earth, he probably even expected cutting, he expected literally every possible attack... So she used an impossible one.
But this also means that his protective spell worked only against people who knew that there was one.
Any mage who had no idea that the cloak was supposed to defend against everything could just ignore it.
@@RolandHeszA mage can sense mana quite easily.
Although some are better at it than others, a cloak imbued with defensive magic would be nearly impossible to miss, since they don't have to really look for it. It's just right there in front of them, clear as day.
It's worth mentioning Zoltraak isn't the simplest offensive magic. It was the first spell that could pierce magical armour, so 80 years after stealing the spell from Qual humanity made it the benchmark for new defensive magic. In turn, it was made a part of the basic curriculum. It has an added bonus of being highly efficient as a beam of raw magic. The only reason modern mages have stepped away from it is because magical defenses can effectively counteract it - unless of course you specialize in it and can overwhelm such protections.
In summary, baby Fern grew up wielding the most dangerous weapon ever designed.
To use D&D terms, Ubel is a sorcerer in a world of wizards. She uses her magic based on feeling and intuition. Its what lets her copy a spell once she understands the feelings of the caster. (Also WOULD)
What I particularly liked is how elemental magic was introduced in this series.
Elemental magic (for combat) isn't fundamental magic, but the result of an arms race.
Zoltraak was developed as the fundamental killing spell.
Defense spells were developed to counter Zoltraak; these spells could also protect against other types of spells, but not as effectively, and even less against physical attacks.
Thus the development of elemental combat magic, as it would count as physical attacks against defensive magic.
Image someone who has some level of understanding natural science and using it to enhance their elemental magic. Guys like Rudeus Greyrat from mushoku Tensei would be really hard to defeat but not impossible since magic in Frieren is about visualization (except Goddess magic)
@viljaminieminen6925 rudy's thing is that he always underestimates himself, he gets arrogant for even a second and the literal most powerful person in the worldkicks him back down
@@MrBii03 I never said that it would be impossible to defeat Rudeus. Just enough to provide a real bad headache.
Also he wasn’t arrogant when he faced Dragon God for first time. Just clueless what was Dragon God’s relationship with Human God.
@viljaminieminen6925 If I remember correctly in the novel he actually was (mentally). He honestly deserves to be a bit arrogant but he isn't.
I never said it wouldn't be hard or impossible. I was just talking about Rudy's mentality especially during the current anime season.
My theory on why the defense spell is never named is because spell names makes the spell concrete and therefore a named defense spell is ill suited against other magic attacks. Defense magic is one of the only things Ubel doesn't cut through because it's so incomprehensible to visualize going through defense magic. If you name defense magic "shell", "reflect", "shield", "ward", or "barrier", there's always some offensive visualization that counters it (e.g.: "hammer" vs "shell"). So offensive spells are named as a handicap for the caster to visualize its effect. Kind of like in JJK naming techniques makes them stronger, naming spells in Frieren is nice training wheel for casting it.
makes sense, folk spells are only referred to by their purpose, offensive spells are often named uniquely such as the spells frieren used during the fight against her clone.
Makes way too much sense. Zoltraak was the epitome of an "offense" type of magic and was literally delegated as the basic attack spell for mages later on so what's better to defend against it than something called "defense magic"?
That assumes they grew up in a world without magic though. Learning spell beats defense magic is no different than learning hammer counters shell.
But the spell is concrete. Qual was able to analyze it and caste it almost immediately, which is how he figured out its weakness. I think a simpler explanation for Ubel is that ordinary defensive magic is just a thing she took for granted before developing her cutting spell. Through formal training or seeing a mage battle. In the same way her spell probably wouldn't work on an anvil either, as that is something she'd probably be familiar with as a child.
As a writer I can savely say to develop a magic system, which is coherent, simple but also gives enough creative freedom, from scratch is incredible hard and I totally get it if ppl stay with what is known if it isnt the story's main focus unlike in Frieren where it is literaly a major part of the story. A tip I can give, new world builders start with the origin or source and build up from there. Also if you need inspiration dont fear to look beyond the fantasy realm... I did the biggest jumps in my development while learning chemistry and physics in school.
the less details you tell the less likely you are to contradict yourself and have more freedom to make it work
I'm not entirely sure how the "if you can imagine it then it works" works with using books to learn new spells instead of just imagining the effects without that but that probably can be explained somehow, like you have to imagine *what exactly* happens at the lower level, think Rudy working out the water magic with his physics knowledge
Tbh, I didn’t realize how complex Frieren’s magic system was till people started pointing it out: I always thought that the imagination aspect was an integral part to magic casting, like that of Mushoku Tensei, and it was more or less a generic magic system.
When I first saw it being used, I thought the magic was going to be more akin to that, but it seems like it’s a mix of that, and mental configuration:
a system of manipulating something through the idea of visualization, with the more mana and proficiency, the stronger the result, but if you have a strong visualization, you don’t need as much mana, and still do a lot.
This is how Ubel was able to cut through anything, even though she was weaker then sense, and the barrier put up on the cloak. because her mind knew it could cut it, it bypassed all normal danger barriers to do the thing she visualized. (But it also seems like it has limits: like how defensive magic could defend against it, Ubel has to be in close proximity to activate it, and the times she’s been shown to be able to do this was against opponent that don’t react with magic, or doesn’t actively defend against it.) what she visualized wasn’t the cutting of the defense, it was the cutting of the material, which allowed her to cut, and in-turn, caused the defensive magic on those items (or person in the case of the cloak guy she murdered.) to crumple, and since the first class mage was inside the cloak, cause him to also get cut, like how the air gets cut when your cutting fabric with scissors.
Really, this is a very intresting power system, something that if the Mushoku Tensei logic applies, means that with enough visual manipulation and magic, Frieren can make an actual nuke, or stone cannon, or just a fucking gun. So many options, so much that we don’t know. (This could also explain how Frieren is able to decode and learn new spell so quickly, because she understands the visualizations, and is able to learn to dissect and reverse the effects.)
But this is all just a thought.
@@Z4KIUStbh, I think the books gives a templet for what to imagine, and what to think to try to do something:
like, we know how to boil water, but *how* do you boil water with magic? Best answer would be putting heat into it, by taking the energy from the surroundings, and condensing it into the liquid, causing it to boil. We might know this and how it works, but then how would you visualize it? How would u visualize turning grapes sour? Derusting materials? Or getting stains out of clothing, or getting clean clothes?
It’s easy to imagine the end product, or what it should end up, but how about the in between?
Like, we know it’s a world of visualization, but we don’t know how hard they have to visualize it, if they need the know how to do it: Ubel was able to cut through anything because she knew that cloth could be cut, hair was made to be cut, and could visualize the cutting, because she has also done it before, could the same thing be applied here? Like you have to visualize, or know how to clean clothes to be able to using the clean clothes spell? Maybe that’s what’s inside the book, or is what is being detailed.
Personal opinion is that the books act as a archive/templet that people can use to try to gain tips to do the spell their trying to do, and gives them tips as to visualizing the steps of doing the process they want to do, because everything is slightly different, and giving someone a broad concept on how to do it would give them more insight in how it works, like make many randomly-shaped grapes that arn’t the same, sour.
If that’s the case, it would also explain why Frieren is so keen on getting more spells like this. It would help more with her visualizations, and help improve her ability to decode spells, because when imagination is king, if you have experienced thousands of different spells, it should give you some experience in trying to solve a new spell, like if you have learned freezing, you should learn how to boil, and so on.
yea ive seen some people create these immencly complex magic systems, with tonns of rules and restrictions, as a way of trying to make fanticy as realistic as possible, which is not to say thats a bad idea. and people wont enjoy tat i mean some people love padantic things like that but for me it takes allot of the joy out of the story, aslong as its a well thought out but simple system. that means fights are still intence and aslong as the series doent have to constantly explain there system i think its a winner. frieren does a fantastic job, makes me feel like im playing D&D symioultaniously compleax but easy to understand.
also the logic frieren aplies is brilliant basicly use zolterac. use this defencive spell, the most esential spells are cleaning or making flowers or making ice cones.
@@robertlaidlaw4592 I totally get what you are saying and agree.(I love complex magic systems but hate it, if every spell comes with a page long explaination) I do believe the creator themself has a set of complex rules but I they are careful about what gets told and only sticks to the bare minimum, which is needed to understand, whats going on.
There is an advise I got, which I personally try to stick to. That the author builds a stage, but the viewer only sees what's in the spotlight. Basically every good fantasy story I know does this. I actually went from a very restricted type of magic to a very open one, but behind the scence I only changed on thing, all the other rules are still standing. And Frieren feels like a masterful example of this. There is a lot world building behind the scence, but we dont see it most of the time, which makes the magic system and world itself feels very coherent.
21st century science textbook would be a freaking holy grail for Frieren
Might actually be a double-edged sword, as it's simple to imagine a natural phenomena in terms of its effects but recreating it via modern day science may cause the spell's effects to be restricted to what is scientifically possible..
On the other hand, railgun.
i’m not sure I really get the concept that Übel introduces, her scene cutting the defensive mage’s cloak is said to be possible because she can imagine cutting it, but that brings up so many issues, what about that mage’s imagination? Was he not able to imagine her not being able to cut it? Why doesn’t his imagination counter her’s? What if a mage turned off their magic sense and didn’t know the cloak had a defensive spell? They’d be able to imagine cutting the seemingly normal cloak right? Why does it work to block spells when the caster can’t see that they cast a defensive spell? if the only reason a defensive spell works is because people can’t imagine breaking it then it shouldn’t work against people who don’t know they’re not supposed to be able to break it right? And if the only thing that matters is who can imagine beating the other then why does how much mana you have matter? Übel didn’t have more mana than the first grade defensive mage she killed, so why was she able to overpower his spell?
What you should take from that, is that the human understanding of magic in Frieren is far from perfect. They have a method, they know it kind of works and they teach it - and then some wildcard comes along and proves that actually, no, they don't understand it at all. Ubel's method works for her because she wasn't taught in the environment that led all those other mages to beleive that the magic in that cloak was impervious the moment they saw it.
the way I think its working is her spell simply produces the effect of cutting and the easier something is to cut the more Ubel can cut it. cloth is cloth. even if it had enough magic imbued into it to make the wearer indestructible
Magic here is just reality warping. Most mages relied on logic and common sense. Ubel relied on feeling. Sure, logic and common sense declared that magical attacks is blocked by defense magic, but Ubel feels that cloth is cloth so her magic cuts through that mage anyways.
The writing here is almost like a stroke of genius really. What made the cloak impenetrable was the ungodly amount of mana poured into it, to the point where destroying that magic layer seemed impossible. In other words it was the magic layer that made it strong, not the fabric itself.
Even if he did try to visualize the cloth itself not being cut, it's not as easy as cutting it with scissors.
Just because you can see and visualize yourself doing something, doesn't mean you will be capable of it, common reason and logic still exist. Reelseiden goes by one simple rule of it can cut anything Übel thinks it can cut, that's how her magic works, but that's not how ALL magic works, Übel is just clinically insane which makes her a genius when it comes to magic because of visualization. She doesn't follow common logic. Humans apparently can't bite their finger off because our brains don't let us do that, and if you know this fact you definitely can't bite your finger off and most mages with common logic as you see most do in the anime restrategize and find some other way. But Übel's brain and the way Reelseiden works isn't based on logic, Übel knows logically she can't bite off her finger, but she feels that she can and that's good enough for her to bypass that brain function. If Burg's magic worked with the rule that he can defend against anything he thinks he can defend against, magic visualization would come into play in the literal sense, except he only just puts on defensive magic, on top of that Reelseiden is basically invisible, there's no visualization against that. She doesn't think she can cut defensive magic so she can't. The visualization isn't an all-encompassing rule, its just a better way to think of magic, some characters like Übel just have some weird magic that attunes to that part of the brain completely.
I think the rock-pappers-scissors still works to a degree. The show has shown that there clearly defined offensive and defensive types of spells (scissors and rock) and some spells that change things about the enviroment or even disable you completely (restraints and hypnosis magic or even controlling elements to shape the battlefield that can give you openings - paper). But with how complex and versataile spells can be these arent hard lines and more so labels.
The anime also explains defensive magic.
If you observe how frieren fights her own copy, she uses spells to defend herself against anything that isn't Zoltraak. The only time she uses defensive magic is against her copy's Zoltraak.
That's because the defensive magic was developed specifically for Zoltraak but it was also functional for other magics as well. Zoltraak needed something to counter it, because at the time there was no way to defend against it.
Your head cannon might also be correct in that it was a collaborative effort, and people made it into a versatile spell.
However the anime also says that the defensive spell hasn't really been developed much further. There's only "the one defensive spell" because it's relatively a recent advancement.
It's also so specialized to defend against magic that it's not good at defending against physical impacts
For everyone else, it's rock paper scissors.
Frieren uses a fourth option: Gun.
*machine gun
@@ThePCguy1720mm anti tank machine gun.
Everyone is a mage until Frieren rolls up with the Glock sporting a wish autosear.
What I like the most about magic in Frieren is how so many ancient or rare spells aren't made for combat. Instead they show us what the people and societies deemed important or perhaps annoying enough to solve using magic.
The spell that creates a field of flowers while important to many characters also shows that back in the ancient days of this world someone cared about beauty enough to formulate a spell that can create it.
It's this kind of non-combat magic that really makes this series stand out and highlights what matters in the story.
I think the rock paper scissor thing is a very simple analogy but a more apt one would be fighting game matchups. Some characters will have a better time against others because of how their ability interact but you still have low tiers and high tiers and a high tier is a character that has a lot of favorable matchup but that typically stems from having simply stronger moves that deal more damage than average or are faster or recover faster, in frieren world this would be the amount of mana, the speed of your casting and the control over your mana, someone can improve those things and overcome a bad matchup but someone can also beat a more experienced mage by haviing a matchup that line up perfectly for them.
And again to continue with the analogy, it's totally possible for a character to be top tier but just happen to have a terrible matchup against a character that's otherwise awful. Because they have a fatal flaw or because the other character happen to do things in a way that line up amaziingly to counter that other character despite being bad against everyone else.
So yeah taking that viewpoint it works better, the rock paper scissor is just the simplest version of it you can imagine but it doesn't capture the complexity of having different tiers of power in the meta.
I agree with this assessment, this is exactly why in the last arc of the anime the Frieren said that the one who "could" beat her was Fern. In terms of Stats and Abilities Freiren is about as stacked as possible, but Fern can cast quicker than she may be able to react in time. Fern knows this about herself and has no mercy in abusing spam attacks if she thinks she can pummel you into submission. After all, if you are forced into total defensive mode, its really hard to break out of it. Magically speaking, Fern is a machine gun, and damn if they arent good at suppressing an opponent.
Interestingly enough, when the idea of visualization was introduced, it actually reminded me of Magical Index's esper abilities. In that show, espers are making their "personal realities" into actual reality. Ubel is basically doing the same here albeit on a more simplistic level. Cloth is meant to be cut, she basically imposes this reality onto the guy before cutting him down.
I like how calm and natural your voice it. The natural pauses make it so personal. It's very relaxing, listening to you.
The reason ordinary defensive magic doesn't have a name is because it doesn't originate as a single spell. It is a composite of many spells designed to block magic spells of all varieties.
Zoltraak is no different. Frieren knows it's name because she knew who invented it and how it is called yet to a human who does not. It is just ordinary offensive magic.
If frieren knows the name of that defensive spell or it's origins is unknown though.
Having a wild card character like Ubel is always fun.
Flight is also a relatively recent spell that the humans (and frieren) reverse engineered from demons and now all of them know it and it’s considered basic
"genius of magic system"
Meanwhile: I imagine and it happens *mind blown*. What about learning magics and creating new ones in academy and such? No just imagine.
I absolutely hated that ubel killed that guy for no reason 😂😂. Like girl you just had to make him take a step back.
No, she had to make him take a step back.
she killed the guy accidentally because she asked the guy if his cloak wont be destroyed or cut so she attacked with alot of strength thinking he'd survive
Mage: "The stronger your ego, the stronger you are."
Demon: "Exactly. That's why humans can't beat demons."
Frieren: "Friggin' conceited and careless."
Random mage with God complex: "throughout the heaven and earth, i alone am the honored one"
*proceeds to wipe countries with unblockable testicular torsion, that works on every creature doesnt matter the anatomy, cause he believe in it hard enough*
"Mana is the capacity to do magic"
- Newton probably
May the algorithm bless this video!
I love stuff that makes me question the concept of magic and adds to my personal perception of magic theory. This series is no exception
I'm sick and lonely. And your voice talking about nerdy magic stuff comforts me. Thank you.
I love how spell combos are used. There's that guy who uses a spell to conjure a field of flowers, and then uses a second spell that turns pedals into flying metal blades.
I like to say that Ubel can definitely imagine the 1kg of steel is heavier than a 1kg of feathers, because steel is heavier than feather.
It doesn’t actually have to take a genius or super powerful mage to be strong in Frieren.
Since magic is a world of visualization, all it takes is for one mage to thing “why not?” This is what Ubel does, but it’s more suited towards her cutting magic.
But another person doesn’t have to be unhinged to just think “I’mma do it, just cuz I can”.
Somebody like Gojo or Sukuna would be unstoppable in this world as they are in theirs, simply because of their mindset. “Nah, I’d win.” And they’d win
Powerscalers finding out that things like will, emotion and imagination can't be measured in units: 😭
Makes sense than why Frieren is so powerful, her mindset is much more open to the idea of magic itself rather than most are. It is implied that despite being 1000+ years old, Frieren is still young by comparison to other elves. And I think that is shown in how her mind still having that ability to capture the idea that magic can be well magical. Since how you think shapes how you use magic and what kind you can make, that shows how Frieren has that childlike wonder in regard to magic. Thus the greatest magical attacks are just as amazing as the most mundane spell for mundane tasks. To her, all magic is magical.
That is why she collects spells, even the most mundane and useless ones - they all broaden her horizons of what is possible, which in turn makes it easier for her to weave other magics or break the "unbreakable" shield.
When it comes to Ubel's cutting magic, it is clever flip of concepts that makes it work different from normal cutting spells.
"To cut" is to "Bit hardness against hardness" so to defend against "Cut" you just need harder material.
However, as ubel explains it, cloth is just cloth and she learned to cut from her sewer sister.
so we have to change "To cut" to concept that has to do with cloth specifically to understand her magic.
"Sever" is what you do with cloth. You don't cut it, you sever it, and to sever something is to split it apart.
Take a piece of paper and start pulling at two ends to opposing directions. The paper is going to be split apart, which when done cleanly looks like a cut. But when it is jagged, it suddenly isn't a cut, it has been severed.
So all ubel is actually doing is clean severing based off of how sewer severs cloth.
Then our caped class 1 mage is defending against severing with hardness. Well, if you pull metal apart hard enoungh, it's still going to be severed no matter how hard the metal itself is.
Ubel is literally only one character that I know of that embodies the abosolute crazy confidence of "Nah I win"
Frieren’s magic system reminds me of how the lanterns work in DC. With the green lantern, his willpower fuels the constructs that he can create I with his imagination, and his powers are only limited by his willpower and creativity. That’s why it always made sense to me. God I love this show 😭
So theoretically she can cut through Gojo's infinite lol
Is she cuts the space in Gojo's infinity just like how Sukuna discovered through Daddy Raga
No cause space isn't something you're supposed to cut.
@@Sarx-vw5oqTrue, she can't cut through space but she definitely can cut through skin
I like the distinction of folk magic in Frieren. It implies that even regular people who just happen to have a bit of magical talent are still out there making spells for their own use.
If someone had asked me to explain what magic was before I saw this anime, I'd have been hard pressed to give an answer before I started watching anime, but after I started watching it, my answer would have been rather simple. Magic is what happens when something you can imagine cannot be easily explained from your own personal perspective. The fact that the magic system of Frieren is not only based entirely on imagination, but could actually be explained by its wielders through the grimiores they create is so perfect to me that I cannot help but love it. When Ubel cut through the proctor for the exam simply because she could imagine cutting his cloak, it's simple to explain but I believe it's more complex than that: He couldn't imagine anyone getting through the cloak, while Ubel could. At that moment, she had imagination while he didn't, which to me is why it was so easy for her to not only cut the cloak but cut him as well.
Mages are artists! And i love it!
Art isnt a talent, its a skill built over time and the only true way to get better is to understand the fundementals and theory and practice. Some people start out with a little bit more visual capabilities- with more vivid imaginations but it still takes a lot of work, and art always has room for improvement and refinement.
Frieren believing that enjoyment comes from the persuit of magic rings true for art as well. If you where perfect, all the time, and never tried new materials or tecniques- you'll get bored of your art.
The magicians that others fear are those ones with a couple of screws loose
actualy, Ubel used as an example and a counterexample of that "visualizing" theme. in one hand she can cut through nearly unbreakable defence by visualizing the cuting of the thing it attached to. in other hand, she can't cut though common defencive barrier, because she never saw it being cut, it always shatter like a glass. so she can belive as hard as she want, that she can cut it, but if she can't imagine the process ecactly how it should look like in reality, she can't do it. the point here is how it should ACTUALY look like if it were actualy cut, wrong visualisation will lead to no result. its the same as you trying to imagine breaking metal bar, if you imagine it breaking like stone or wood, it won't happen, you should imagine it breaking like metal does, which means you need to know how metal breaks. and because of this Ubel will never be able to cut things, that can't be cut, like water.
this video really needed some type of music playing in the background.
The magic system I’ve been working on is elemental at its core but people study their magic can learn to manipulate it to do more complex things than just fire. Like using micro flames to manipulate water molecules in the air in order to refract light and make illusions. The reason wizards have to write spells out is because they’re doing stuff so complicated they can’t even think about it at the time and are just focusing on the page
The fights in this show are what your level 20 D&D character does to a bunch of goblins
He knew what he was doing putting Übel on the thumbnail
Defensive magic is from my understanding just too simple in hindsight to get a name.
Which is why Qual got it so fast, in theory he knew that his magic could be blocked by that all along. It's just that hardly anyone properly doing it ever used it like that because there where so few proper analyzers and that magic is just a huge mana dump you would never use without good reason. And Zoltraak introduced the mainstream reason.
It's just focussed mana pressure. So it's just Zoltraak but you don't just wildly blast it at people. Which is why Ubel can't cut it. But she can cut all the mediums used to save mana in defense. It has a lot of: you get what you pay for. Elemental magic is elegant corner cutting by controlling existing objects.
Burg's defense was mostly geared towards modern magic flinging objects at him. A build designed around the meta. Not some weirdo specialized in cutting directly destroying his medium. Some weirdo that mind you also was just generally very powerful additionally, bad combo.
I think there is something more to imagination that hasn't been explained because:
- Frieren stated that she can't imagine winning against Kanne with a rainy day but let's be real... she would obliterate her
- Sense says that Übel has an innate talent/is a prodigy, which IMO implies that she can bypass defensive magic unconsciously like Qual does during the fight against Frieren/Fern when he creates a way to bypass defensive magic.
Overall I like the "imagination" magic system and it feels cool and new but there is something not explained or it has its flaws.
I don't think frieren was saying she couldn't beat kanne specifically, she's saying she can't imagine beating a water mage in the rain, but I think it's more "if there was a mage of my level and we were fighting in the rain I wouldn't be able to see myself winning" which is the position richter is in.
Either that or she is saying that fighting a water mage in the rain she'd think about all the way that mage would be able to crush her, even if the mage isn't at that level the fact that you know what they could be doing makes it hard to see victory. It's not a big deal if you can just blast through anyway, but it would affect performance regardless.
It's a bit unclear so you might be right, but I prefer giving a more charitable interpretation of what's said considering it's obvious to anyone that frieren wouldn't lose to kanne even in the rain.
I really like Frierens magic system because it gives everyone to learn the magic, there is no limit saying you can only practice one kind, so there’s a commonality that everyone is working from the same basis, but each person comes up with a unique way that they perform magic so you get to see the diversity that comes from people devs their own styles from the same source
I love the folk magic in Frieren because they feel so fun even if they're mundane. It's rather sad seeing human magic in Frieren reflect the message of the show's story about lost memories. The mages dedicated their lives to perfect their unique personal spells that can't be use outside of combat and in danger of disappearing once they die. The folk magic are useful in daily life but they are also in danger of disappearing since there seems to be isn't much preservation attempt outside a couple of elves' obsession. Flamme's grimoires are mostly fake while barely anyone in any settlements would be able or bothered to learn and put the few local grimoires into practice.
You lost perfect change to use the dude with cloak as a thumbnail...
It doesn't have one. Nothing is ever explained and new mechanics are only introduced mid-fight via five-minute flashbacks to save characters from dying.
Nice video! It came up on my algorithm and feed. I love Friren! And I love how you talk about this cause I discuss this with my boyfriend too. Good luck with your UA-cam channel! :D
Frieren's magic system reminds me of Mythbusters in one specific thing:
The reason why Mythbusters worked as a show so well, is that Science as much as it is our tool for understanding the world, is also a story we tell ourselves. Science and Art are not two different things, but technically speaking comes from the same place in the human. The drive to imagine "what if". Mythbusters showed us how that works retroactively. The story of the myth gives us a deeper understanding of the world by testing it. And then also by showing what need to happen should for the story t obe true in order for the story to hold up. And as such it confirms our "what if" thought.
Frieren's magic works the other way around. The "What if" is a thing that has to be understood and projects itself forward. And through the innovations of their imagination their spells evolve, become deeper and more complex, able to imagine more difficult and complex actions as well as cut down a lot of bullshit that you might not need. It's driven my imagination, the same as science, the same as art. It also imo, explains why older mages are a lot more powerful. I think with more life experience there is a lot of things to draw upon more experience to base your imagination on and understand it better. The mana for that might be the short cut to that idea.
No, the reason why Qual's Zoltraak was black is cuz he modified it that that point in time to penetrate defensive magic. Most of his other Zoltraak are also shown as white.
This is why the mage that tried to fight Frieren in the last episode also used a black Zoltraak.
I love the fact Übel is basically a 40k orc
"This is a cloak. It's cloth. It's made to be cut. So I cut it."
"Yes but-"
"It's cloth. I cut it."
"No, you don't understan-"
"It's cloth. Cloth is made to be cut."
I think this magic system is terrible because delusion is omnipotent. Like the show frames ubel as she isn't sane enough to realize that defensive magic should stop her but thats not right. Defensive magic CAN'T stop her so actually everyone else was insane for thinking defensive magic does anything. They all KNOW that it's based on visualization therefor ANYTHING is possible so you shouldn't logically ever think you can't do something. Of course you could cut through a defensive spell, of course you can fire an infinitely powerful laser, why couldn't you do that? Just imagine it dumbass. What does mana even do if imagination overpowers everything?
Ubel cutting through that defensive spell immediately trivialized every aspect of magic talked about up to that point in the show and ensured it would never be anything other plot convenient nonsense going forward. I was so disappointed especially because it runs entirely counter to earlier in the show talking about magic development with zoltrark. Basically the show went from magic as a science to magic and an art and that ruined everything.
Pretty sure the author is going for the actual esotericism with it and looks like they've done some research into the occult and cymatics. Remember in Frieren's world it was only "magic as science" (You meant scientific study?) for men as the most possessed puny imagination and flawed perception, so applying the scientific method to study magical phenomena was the only way they could make any sense of it and knowledge births practices, which then become art (of the skill) over time. Prior to that magic was banned among people and all human mages were hunted down within their society. It was not the case for the other races such as elves and demons, who by their nature possessed powerful minds to shape the world to their liking.
It is emphasized in the very same arc that know someone isn't enough. You should be able to execute it. That why Frieren failed. Even though she has infinite mana her personality prevents her from using certain spell or getting by certain situations. That is why she needs a party. And it is the same for every mage in the series.
The weakness of Ubel is that she can't cut someone she likes...
@@giogiolachance4313Did we watch the same show or you including manga info or something? That's very much not what the show told us.
They definitely never once mentioned anything about Ubel not being able to cut someone she likes and her "weakness" is that she can't cut things she doesn't think she can cut, which is nonsense.
I think it is implied. not a spoiler just my interpretation of what I have seen. @@AWanderingSwordsman
You're misunderstanding something. Defensive spells absolutely can stop Ubel - she explicitly explains that it does. She couldn't defeat Wirbel or Denken, nor could she cut through the magical barrier spell. She explains how, since the spell is supposed to block magic, it is something that she can't visualize cutting through. What she did vs Burg's cloak and Sense's hair is different: their defensive magic was woven into cloth and hair respectively, materials that she can easily visualize cutting. Ubel's particular delusion is that her instinctive belief in the cuttable properties of cloth and hair overrides her rational mind that tells her that those items were protected by defensive magic. For her, the defensive spells on them might as well not exist. So she's not cutting through the defensive spells on the cloth or hair, she's bypassing them entirely. But this is something unique to her, as any other mage using the same spell would have their rational mind be dominant instead, so they wouldn't be able to cut through Burg's cloak or Sense's hair no matter how hard they try to visualize it.
Also, what this means is that Ubel isn't a hard counter to everybody else just because she was able to defeat two first class mages. Like she explains, she couldn't defeat Wirbel or Denken. She couldn't imagine cutting through the barrier spell, first of all, and both those mages are much stronger than her. Another thing to notice is that her slices carved out gouges in stone rather than cutting all the way through, and that's because stone is hard and she instinctively believes in its hardness. She can't imagine cutting straight through stone, but gouging it is possible. So Richter possibly counters Ubel, too.
Another thing is that had Sense used the barrier spell on her hair (like how Richter uses the barrier spells alongside his rock barriers) rather than just relying on the defensive spells woven into the hair, then Ubel would probably have lost as those barrier spells would have defended against Ubel's cuts.
I have some resistance to the concept of visualisation beating over complexity or power of spells.
On the one hand, there is a clear message that in a direct confrontation, the quantity of magic is a big factor in who wins: when slinging basic offensive spells and using barriers to protect yourself, you can't just visualize having more power than the other. That's set in stone. Your skill can lead you to victory, such as using a burst of power when the opponent has his guard down, but if the both are in full frontal assault the biggest mana pool wins. The main reason Frieren and Fern walk over demons all the time is that they go full psychological warfare by manipulating how much mana they emit.
And then suddenly it doesn't matter how strong your defensive spell, or even how much you visualize yourself as being indestructible, I can visualize cutting you better. However, visualizing yourself being resistant to Zoltraak (if I even spelled it correctly) isn't just a matter of belief, it's the creation of a complex spell that is very efficient but power hungry.
I also don't understand how a spell can both be developed as visualisation, and written as tomes. Of course the story doesn't describe this, but it's kind of hard to imagine how visualizing yourself doing something could be transcribed.
So either cut-lady is a complete freak and her divergent mindset allows her to bypass normal spell crafting, or the system is somewhat contradictory.
Don't get me wrong, the magic system perfectly serves the narrative purpose for which it is created, but it does so by asking to not overthink it. The strength of the show is not in the intricacy of the magic system, but how much personality it allows characters to express themselves using it.
My understanding is that Ubel can't cut defensive magic itself. The spell still works as normal for and against her. What makes her scary is that when magicians imbue stuff with spells, she can disrupt the material directly, which disrupts the spells.
She's also noted to learn spells via empathy/instinct/observation rather than study. I'd be really curious to see how grimoires work, rather they're formula or more like guided meditation prompts.
Frieren likes to equate its magic to IRL science / technology. So a mage visualizing a spell would be equivalent to Newton inventing calculus and the mage writing the spell as a tome would be Newton writing down the formalism in his Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica. If you think it like that, Ubel is just a genius who can understand certain aspects of reality subconciously and apply them quick ( She is Newton inventing and applying math all the time and on the fly).
@@kris1123259 My problem with that interpretation is that as a reader, it is not clear why some things are impossible and others aren't. If being able to visualize something makes it possible, wouldn't insane wizards be capable of creating any spell? How is Frieren's calculations to dispel a barrier different from Ubel visualization that cuts everything? Why is one math and the other belief?
I understand that you can write rules that come from your head. But a visualization isn't a math equation. If a spell is being able to see yourself cast a spell that does an action, how the hell do you write that?
Again, this is light nitpicking, because I don't think the intricacies of the magic system are a core part of the show.
@thomaslacroix6011 I think you may be reading into the visualization dialogue too much. The fact that magic is typically learned through grimoires is as kris said, it is likely a collection of formulas and support for the reader to interpret and learn from as guidance for the creation and use of the spell. For instance, the flower creation spell that Frieren learned from her master. She was likely given a grimoire on the spell that taught her how to create flowers but what kind of flowers? Any kind of flower? Likely she could not create flowers without an idea of what a flower is, and more than likely the spell does not allow you to create flowers that don't exist because you would be creating new species of flower hence she had to have a real representation of a flower to "visualize" its creation. The example of which she pulled from memory after seeing Himmel's favorite flower.
As for power levels I think there is a visualization and confidence are tied here. We have already understood that visualization is tied to learning magic but its also tied to confidence. Frieren does not have the confidence she can beat the water mage when its raining because she controls all water and could likely overwhelm Frieren. The earth mage once it started raining, understood that all this water would benefit the water and ice mage which disrupted his mana and made him weaker. It is more like the mage thinks they can't win or do something before they even try which results in them unable to do it because they have convinced themselves to be unable to do it.
As for Ubel. Several characters have called her crazy which she is. For her, she learns magic based on empathy rather than study but she has the ability to rationalize magic as magic unless it relates to physical objects in the world which she can separate from magic. The instance with the mage having defense spells on his cloak is a good example. Fundamentally, the cloak exists and is strengthen by the defense magic and a fundamental mage would see that as i have to get through the magic to cut the cloak. Ubel sees the cloak and the magic separate because the coat exists, why cut through the magic to get to the cloak when the cloak itself is just cloth. However, a magic defense spell by itself is not something she understands and thus cannot cut through it. However, Sense's hair, something that is typically cut, can be cut regardless of the spell magic Sense puts on it.
I think you raise a good question about insane mages. So far, outside of Framme who created a significant portion of magic spells, people typically have one personal magic and lots of learned magic. By Ubel's own words and support from Wirbel, personal magic you create is an extension of yourself. Ubel learns magic from intuition and empathy rather then the old read a book method. It would be safe to say all insane mages would do the same. Creating it however, would likely be much harder because she can only pull from her understanding of reality: example, creates spell that cuts physical objects based on her experience with her sister's tailoring job cutting and repairing cloth. She could not however create a blackhole or use flying magic because they likely dont understand blackholes and humans can't typically fly.
@@SpareJoker gonna be honest I'm not reading all that, but it is true that I might be reading too much into the visualization bit. I just feel like I'm being teased about a complex system without being able to see what studying magic actually looks like. Which feels like there's just enough to suppose it is coherent but I don't have the actual proof.
How I would describe the difference between Frieren's magic system and the traditional ones we see in Shonen, is that it's more reminiscent of a soft magic system, but still is given a similar level of depth and attention to those hard magic systems in other series.
As an example, in JJK, we know what cursed energy is: negative energy created by emotions. We know how it spreads through the world: normal humans can't control it. We know how it is harnessed: By being able to take the slightest emotions and have them generate your cursed energy. We know who can use it: Curses and people with brains of a certain structure. And finally, we know what it can be used for: Basic physical enhancement, or an individual's cursed technique that they obtain at birth.
In Frieren, we know none of these things, magic simply exists, some people use it, and it seems like it can do anything, as long as you're dedicated enough to create a spell to achieve some task. And yet, the development of magic and how certain spells work is given almost the same amount of detail as how these entire other systems work.
And that's what makes the magic system special. It really feels like fantasy. In stories where we know practically everything about the magic system, it becomes basically indistinguishable from sci-fi, a set of systems that follow particular rules and work in particular ways that stay constant throughout the story. There's nothing wrong with this approach, everyone loves a good fight between characters with interesting and well-explained abilities, but you can't deny that it doesn't really feel as "magical" anymore. Frieren's does.
perfect style to have fun in a table top. like d and d but not as restrictive
Frieren told fern that cleaning clothes with magic is an ancient mythic spell. Meanwhile the current mages use magic only for battle and past magic were use for convenience and day to day work and was forgotten by the current era mages. A contradiction to Mashle where he question why everyone relies on magic all the time.
I agree with you, I believe that Magic in Frieren's universe ultimately comes down to the power of visualization. For instance, since Ubel spent her whole childhood watching her sister sewing, she gained a deep visual memory of the act of physically cutting something and applying her talent which could be characterized by a strong sense of visualizing and perceiving the world around her (empathy) she potentially was able to expand her magic to contain other people's magical abilities.
In essence, according to the Mangaka's portrayal, magical abilities boils down to possessing a strong visual memory tailored to a specific specialty, as previously mentioned. Additionally, I also believe that spells in Frieren are basically repositories containing specefic information which aid in the detailed visualization of various phenomena. They offer insights to foster a deep understanding of the physical mechanics at play, thereby enhancing the visualization process.
I wonder will they get double mana if they visualize (idk correctly or non correctly) themself get double mana from the original mana used?
If yes then will they need to imagine it base on logic (correctly) or just spawn it from the only visualization (non correctly)
If no then is there a special boundary that you can visualize? (limiter)
I like that advise about writing in the end. I'm probably not gonna be a writer or anything but it's def gonna stick with me as an artist
Ubel is literally an Orc from 40k isekai'd into an anime
Yes! I wanted to start a channel this summer and one video I wanted to make was Frieren's magic system with Ubel as a medium to highlight the GOOD aspects of a magic system, where a character can become as strong as possible but a fatal flaw mixed with the others confidence in an ability allows for a wide range of possibilities while writing
I think the reason some spells don't have names is for practical purposes. My guess is that the spell name serves as a mnemonic to aid with visualization, but they are optional. We see all kinds of spells that aren't named when casting, like the flying spell or the bird binding spell. Saying a name takes time and concentration and time is of the essence in a fight, so being able to cast defensive magic instinctively without thinking about it is a survival advantage. Same with flying.
I like how ubbel's fkin bpd is a superpower as a mage
The Ubel visualization should be also compared to Frieren breaking the barrier in the first test.
The proctor said it was a barrier spell from Serie and it is IMPOSSIBLE to break. He couldn't visualize it ever being broken and he himself would never be able to do it.
Frieren investigates magic and finds joy in learning and exploring magic. If Frieren believes it can be analyzed and broken... then it can be. Serie is mad when it is broken because instead of it being unbreakable, NOW mages will hear it can be broken and can try to visualize it and will break it more often now.
This also fits the theme of the hero party and the show. Himmel couldn't pick up the 'hero sword' and could have given up or just failed or left. The 'power of belief' or you don't 'care' what the rest of the world says or what disadvantages you might have, you will try anyway. The one who 'calculates' or visualizes too much of their constraints or failures in life, will be constrained and can be stuck and fail. The one who keeps pushing forward may struggle and falter but by getting up every day and trying they can eventually win or 'visualize' and break through.
We haven't seen the hero party battle vs the demon king but Frieren says they won together. The cowardly warrior stayed to fight with his friends, the fake hero, drunk priest, and the 'failed peaceful mage' are the ones who did it and I am expecting 100% it is because of Himmel and the others believing in themselves because of they believed in each other.
Demon King casts a unbreakable/unstoppable spell. Frieren gives up. She can see it is unbreakable and pointless. Himmel shows it ISN'T unbreakable with his fake sword. If Frieren 'sees' it can be stopped then it becomes possible.
Ubel is a 'superpower' as a single entity but Frieren (and friends who believe in you) are an even bigger superpower. However, it is entirely reasonable and power scaled because everyone can have the synergy to work together and try.
it also explains why Serie is such a verbal jerk to everyone and why she asks pointed questions. What do you visualize? She didn't want to pass Denken but when Denken said he THOUGHT about fighting Serie, fighting the impossible despite knowing it is impossible to win, Serie passed him.
Great video!
What made it click was when Richter fought Kanne and someone said (I think it was Lawine?): Can you imagine beating a water mage in the rain?
I love that Ubel and Fern are clearly OP but they are still threatened by other mages and situations because they are rarely fighting 1v1 in ideal conditions.
My dumbass wouldn’t even be able to understand physics during a combat situation.I’d just be like übel but with a lot more panic
That is how humans use it. Demons use it inately, humans can't learn demon magic because they are incapable of understanding demons.
Ubel is the most pure magic user among the humans, she makes no effort to understand it, she just does it.
Defensive magic having no unique name is like trying to give square a unique name, its name is its form . At least that's what i took from the whole thing, it has only defensive effect, so the idea of it being a general human thought invention is a good point.
I like that Übel is an anomally in this world mostly because other people understand that they can IMAGINE the cloth being cut, being deep down they now that wont happen, but Übel is not sane enough to understand that fantasy and reality are not the same. So in her mind she doesn't IMAGINE the cloth being cut, she KNOWS she is going to cut it even thought reason should stop her.
Glad you addressed Nen. It truly is the best power system in all of fiction.
i thought that said The Genius of Friendship Magic System
I will admit i do see a lot of similarities between this and my magic system though i will ironically say my system has even more constraints.
Specifically as a few examples
1 that magic is Very hard to Externalize and any form of spell usually requires physical attachment to the caster iregardless of what your making (so for example an explosion requires you to create and contain the detonation in your hands before launching it) unless your neae the top tier of caster and even then most are limited to a few Kilometres with Prep time.
2 but as a byproduct of this increased difficulty with creating something with magic, things created with it are far more Tangible and Real and nothing created with magic is temporary (at best its a Singularity or portal that collapses once not being fed energy to keep it open).
3 that my setting isnt A fantasy world but a more Real world Psudo Modern Layered Multiverse (crossing universes is common but on average most universes are at a modern day tech level) and with sciences high pressure magic is inherently being restricted by scientific understanding.
4. Ultimately though magic in my setting is split into multiple parts that all come together in different concentrations to form a spell, the foundation(beliefs found in the self but not of the self forming a basic structure you can use to form your magic from), the Self(the personal experience the emotional Reaction more Potent and innate but due to the nature of it spells based in the self are hard to share so others can cast unless rhey replicate the effects and not the process one way self based magic is created is through traumatic events awakening magic in the person being traumatized) , and the world (science, the known magic based in this direction instead bases itself on manipulation of what is over the creation of that which is not and on the high end snd with the aid of a seperate "Magic"(called Arc Magic) system in my setting can even be used to correct things like a Hole in Physics that only the peak of intelligence could find.
5 that the interplay between science and magic is a critical focus of my setting with their being group's on both sides that reject the other and groups in the Middle that seek to unifiy science and magic (well Modern Magic)
6 that old magic is actually a seperate system entirely based on the same world side that science uses but due dwindling collective belief in the properties of these things old Magics effects have been drastically reduced to the point that most of it is considered lost completely as scientific understanding invalidates Symbolic Beliefs and wills
7 Arc or Arc magic i will Best Describe in Alchemical terms to understand its nature, the prima materia or Philosophers stone that alchemy always strives to create usually end before the True final Step not Aware of its existence and though this red stone does Grant Great Power and strength it is still Ultimately constrained to the world and can't overwrite or reject Reality but Arc magic Can if regularly magic allows you to Create things from the self and make them real then Arc Magic is Taking your self and putting it Above Reality 99.999....% of people will never awaken Arc Magic let alone witness its existence as it requires A tremendous will to Awaken and with that will they gain Extraordinary Power an Example event that can Awaken Arc magic though only on a small Scale is A near Death scenario as the Arc Magic Awakens to allow your will to survive to give your body just enough strength to survive, the final step in creating a perfect philosophers stone is not the Reversion of your material sample to a contsined form of prima materia but instead the stage of caesitas(Deadbess/Blueness) as the Stones Connection to the world is killed and it becomes independent from the world able to freely alter it similar to a fully realised Arc magic wielder
Imagine a mage used weed gonna be op
Magic is a world of visualization and so is art, if you have the exact vision for the type of painting or music you want to make, you'll execute it well, but only as long as you have the capabilities to do so. Just because you have the vision to make something doesn't mean you can, unless you, lets say for example you were never taught piano, but you mess around and know what sounds good just by putting notes together. You can't play sheet music, or copy songs from ear, but you create brilliant melodies and harmonies from just your own understanding of it.
Similar approach to personal magic in the "Millennial Mage" series. A lot of the way magic works depends on the mages understanding of how it works, the deeper their understanding the more defined their power is and the utility they can get from it, but if someone fundamentally alters your understanding it can really mess you up if it conflicts with your own.
This man sound like he off a Xan, if he whispered this would be top tier ASMR
The best part of Nen is that it doesn't scale upward which allows it to circumvent raised stakes in the story. Someone with a particularly unremarkable aura can defeat someone with an immense aura if they use the right Nen. The solutions to the conflicts consequently never boil down to just getting stronger. They more often about getting smarter, taking a different approach to the problem, or finding alternative solutions that stop the problem from being a problem in the first place. This gives the writer and characters tons of flexibility and creative license that most magic systems don't allow and makes it so the stakes can rise or fall or be big and existential or small and personal and each will be just as interesting as the other because there's no way to reduce the conflict to a stronger power against a weaker one. The vast majority of other magic systems eventually fall into the trap of doing nothing but introducing stronger and stronger opponents until the conflict is too over-the-top to be relatable and too repetitive and predictable to be compelling. Definitely an A+ system.
So let's paint them in purple colour and they become invisible.
Magic system in Frieren is just visualization. The World helps those who dream and hope. Himmel while having no real fate as a hero became a real hero just because he "wants" to do it. He wills it so and became strong along the way.
Please turn up the volume of the video
It's a very soft magic system. Therefore we see people with wildly different magic types like cutting, clones, earth, water, ice, etc. There's the two basic magics everyone knows being zoltraak and defensive magic, but other then that everyone pulls up their individual spells or magic type out of their ass. It's pretty common in anime nowadays actually as it is also seen in Black Clover and My Hero. The only thing limiting you is your raw strength and imagination.
Idk, id like to think frieren isnt necessarily a fourth option in rock paper scissors, but has been around long enough to have all three in her back pocket, and play whichever she needs to at the moment. Like a more accurate take is when you play slightly later than your friend so you could react to what they played and play the right one to win