Tom Holland | How Christianity Gained Dominion | A Secular Historian Loses His Faith (In Liberalism)
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- Опубліковано 10 жов 2020
- Tom Holland is an historian and author of many books including "Dominion: The Making of the Western Mind." Here he speaks with Glen Scrivener about losing his faith. But the faith that he loses is a faith in what he calls "the pallid simulacrum" of Christianity - western liberal values. Instead he has found himself surrendering to the moral and mythical truth of the stories - ie the stories of Christianity.
RESET is a series of conversations exploring the meaning crisis. With the help of cultural analysts and biblical scholars we're going back to the beginning - to Genesis, the West's great origins story - to see whether the ancient text can speak today.
In these interviews, Glen Scrivener, an ordained church minister and filmmaker, asks questions about conflict, suffering, death, sex, equality, science, and what it means to be human. This is the third interview in the series: • RESET Full Playlist
Subscribe to Speak Life and be the first to watch each video in the series. We're talking to:
Douglas Murray
Katharine Birbalsingh
Tom Holland
Alastair Roberts
Miroslav Volf
John Behr
Wendy Alsup
Rachel Gilson
Rebecca McLaughlin
John Lennox
Rupert Sheldrake
Malcom Guite
Esther O'Reilly
Kristi Mair
Mike Reeves
Paul Vanderklay
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The west has to acknowledge Christianity as it’s Glue or perish... exmuslim who met Jesus Christ the saviour!
You are so right! There is a scientific principle that says “nature abhors a void and seeks to fill it.” This is so true as you can see in science, if an astroid hits earth and leaves a crater it will eventually fill with water and become a lake. If you have a blank space in your linen closet, it will eventually be filled with something. If you take Christianity out of the west, it will be filled by something else, and right now it is being filled by witchcraft, eastern religions that leave people hollow and empty, or radical, violent Islam.
amen sister
We in the post Christian west are unmoored, ideologically disarmed. We need our glue back or our kids kids will have no place to call home.
! We in the post Christian west are unmoored, ideologically disarmed. We need our roots back or our kids kids will have no place to call home. Non Christians need to celebrate our
Judeo Christian myths at least, if they want our great civilization to survive. It is perverse to force ancient Mid East stories narrative forms to fit our modern story expectations. Back then they knew the Sun was not created on the fourth day etc.
Yes, its had influence just as Islam has influenced cultures.
However it does make either's grand claims true.
This man is more of a Christian than any other normie Christian I have ever met. He understands not just the history but the symbolic power of Christianity...the power of the cross
Tom Holland is completely brilliant. What an amazing case he makes for Christianity and in such a unique way. To remember what the cross meant to the Romans... and what it now means... incredible.
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How he finds time to study and write like he does while also playing Spiderman is amazing.
@@btgiv6009 hahaha in the multiverse he can do this
Does Tom live under a Heathrow runway?
Yes, the Bible says the Cross was the ultimate in humiliation and death.
The question is whether or not you believe in the ressurection and eternal life through Jesus Christ. That is our only hope. Tom spoke nothing of the ressurection. Jesus said His Kingdom was not of this world.
Finding this 3 years later. ❤. Gonna listen a couple of times.
We have a couple of other Tom Holland interviews on the channel, if you're interested
Yep, profound stuff, and IMHO it also explains many of the 'disconnects' in values between Western cultures, and say, a lotta 'Non-Western' ones (aka, China, Iran, Russia, Africa, India, North Korea, etc.).
I know that Google analytics rates videos by the "engagement" as to how much they promote it so dropping comments helps boost videos. I'll do my part with this one. :)
this one too! :)
Hehe, appreciate it Paul :)
Yes!
Wait Google promotes videos by comments?
@@Autobotmatt428 It's one of the factors used in the algorithm - is it a video which encourages 'engagement' from the viewers? If so, it's worth them suggesting it to other potential viewers.
Im a Christian and a huge history nerd. I loved Tom Hollands (which I came across in the history section of B&N but I downloaded the audio book that he narrated. It's a wonderful and entertaining lecture on the entire history of Christianity interspersed with the authors pwrsonal story of losing his faith but still having a lot of passion and respect for christianity. His passion in his work is apparent in his writing and his voice as he narrated it . I can't wait to look at his other books about Rome and I pray that he finds his faith one day. God bless
"Humanity cannot bear too much of reality."
Great quote.
I'm sure you know but it's from TS Eliot
That's why folks believe in mythical supernatural Gods who promise an afterlife.
@@iainrae6159 and also why other people believe in human equality despite there not being a shred of evidence for it in nature, and tons of evidence against the idea. Which is scary, it’s “too much reality,” so they cling to the comforting fiction.
@@danieltemelkovski9828It also matters that we don’t have much time per problem, we have only moments to derive a course of action from uncountable details, life is such an intractably deep set of problems that we have no choice but to live by biases and shortcuts.
@@danieltemelkovski9828 What don't you understand?
1. We want well-being.
2. How do you maximize that? By ensuring everyone cooperates. That involves treating people as equals, but _not_ expecting precisely equal outcomes (and people on both sides of the political spectrum make the mistake of talking way too much about the latter).
3. Why? Because in Society A Einstein was free to rise to the top and make insanely unusual contributions to civilization, but in Hypothetical Society B where Einstein was a slave, he couldn't do that; he was just a farm hand.
4. So the focus isn't actually about equality itself, but well-being, and treating people as equals is the way to maximize cooperation which is likely the very best strategy for maximizing societal well-being.
By contrast, Lev 25:44-46 is like 'ya dude, slavery's fine. Just make sure they come from the nations around you. From them you may take slaves. You can own them as property.' So that's an extremely archaic mindset.
Additionally there's the elephant in the room: *our mutual lack of evidence of any gods!* The core fantasy (non-reality) of Christianity.
This fellow is absolutely on point he's swimming up stream and I pray he meets Jesus on the way.
Again and again when I think of this great historian, consider him great because of his humility and honesty, I pray he may come to now Christ 🌈✝️♥️ the living risen Christ!
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@@Coheirs2Heaven …nice synonym 😀
Thank you, very kind! It seems to me I’d heard at least some of this exchange!
Tom is so right. Looking at Western culture and history through the perspective of an atheist/spiritualist Asian culture, Christianity is so fundamental to everything to the West, including things that most Westerners think of them as secular and totally removed from Christianity. Like the 'Enlightenment'.
Actually the enlightenment was not christain, it's freemasonry look up books by Robert Mackey. The founding fathers were some protestant, some diest, some agnostic. Not completely Christian.
@@jacobitewiseman3696 The rebellions were certainly rooted in freemasonry, but many ideas such as dignity of the individuals and equality of humans were from basic Christian theology (i.e. in the image of God, children of God, etc.). Nowhere else in the world did those ideas took hold; man are never born equal; you only are what you are because of your station in life, what the king/emperor bestows on you, what class you are, what race you are. what physical qualities you possess, etc. Many qualities or potentials are unchangeable or must await reincarnation, etc.
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Thanks to Tom, we are clearly in a post-Dawkins/Hitchens era. God bless you for that.
@Tom B "All you need is Paul" 🎵
Much as we may wish to see Dawkins and his allies as the enemy, I'm not sure that what is coming is going to be better. Holland is a wonderful corrective but the worry is that no-one will listen.
@@samueltunnicliffe7012 Jordan Peterson went viral because there's a thirst that Ditchkins couldn't satisfy. Maybe Tom will too. Tom's thesis is more palatable than Peterson in many ways. Like and share is how it happens.
The non belief in supernatural Gods is the fastest rising belief system in the US and UK.
@@iainrae6159 But the non-supernatural god belief systems are still super natural (metaphysical). As Peterson said "stories are more than true, they are real." Monty Python's parody Life of Brian was interpreted by millions as an explaining-away of religion to support a universal innate humanism. They were wrong and so was Cleese the antitheist.
I saw some Orthodox teacher of philosophy say something like “Christianity is too weird not to be true.” That kind of stuck with me.
by that logic, scientology and mormonism should also be true.
@@IrradioMan both are rehashed gnosticism, there’s really nothing new or interesting there. Also, I didn’t say it’s the only proof.
I would agree, especially with regards to the trinity, which is opposed by those who want a God they can comprehend on their own terms. Its development most closely resembles a scientific theory in how it tries to explain all the data from scripture. The other "weird" thing is how the founding values of Christ does not contain the usual flaws we see in every other "prophets" and "savours" out there. From Buddha to Joseph smith and Mohammad, amidst the rather generic spiritual material is always a strain of bigotry, sexism, racism, and other sighs of human origins. All Christ ever had a prejudice against was hypocrisy. No matter how good you try to depict a hero of your imagination, the flaws of your era or your humanity come through.
@@IrradioMan Those were not weird for their time, but extremely derivative.
It's from the church fathers. I think Tertulliam said something to the effect of "I believe it because it is too absurd not to be true". No one would make up a religion of honesty based on lies or of strength based on weakness. Rationality alone would lead one to operate along lines of commonly accepted and popular notions. Not a crucified savior of the Jews rejected by his own people now savior of the Romans! Thr Romans looked down on Jews as a barbarous people. It would not be a bright idea to make that your sales point. But this was to demonstrate the power came from God who chooses the humble amd despised things to confound the strong and wise. It had nothing to commend itself and all the odds of human calculation against it yet it conquered the most powerful empire on earth.
Everyone who watches this should read “How Should We Then Live: The Rise and Fall of Western Thought and Culture” by Francis Schaeffer. It touches on similar themes from a believing/practicing biblical Christian perspective. Even if you are not a Christian it’s incredibly interesting to follow the history that Schaeffer presents.
Great book
Love his honesty. Holland is near the Kingdom.
Yeah, once He captures your imagination, you are close. The problem, I bet for Tom Holland, is probably the same one Nicodemus had--it's so unpopular in the circles he's in.
not so fast. he is an historian talking about Christina myth and ideology!! it does not imply that he believes in the supernatural. i hope.
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A great quote at ~1:09 "The Bible says a lot about plagues ... I would rather hear about that than have a bishop tell me how to wash my hands."
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Very excited for this talk!
Hey, Paul, nice to hear your name again. How are you these days? Do you think you could be in a position to get Jordan Peterson and Tom Holland in a room for a good old chin wag? If so, please do!
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Listening to Tom speak of these things was a strange experience. It seems he has a more solid faith than a lot of Christendom....though he may not see it that way. He believes in the power of the Cross! But not in a shallow and meaningless way.
I pray the Holy Spirit illuminates his heart and he sees that Christ who died on that cross, did so, not to just make the world a better place...
I don't see it as faith so much as self-awareness, which must also include all the historical contingencies of one's values. Which is just as important in a post-Christian world as it is in a Christian one, perhaps even moreso.
He's being very honest about what he factually observes of the impact of the cross. Very refreshing in an age of people just reacting with their feelings and shooting from the hip.
I agree...
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Amen !
What a wonderful communicator Tom Holland is, I don't know about anyone else but I could hear as he spoke, the internal struggle in the debts of his soul for a real and tangible touch from the Holy spirit regarding the existencial and relevant truth, not only of God's word but God Himself. I'll be praying for you Tom
"I'll be praying for you Tom" Maybe you should sacrifice a goat for him.
@@michaelparry7160 wow, you athiest infant, leave this thread for people that actually have respect and dignity, you idiot
Yes. I hope the walls of his heart fall like Jericho!
@@michaelparry7160 "For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it;
You do not delight in burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and a contrite heart-
These, O God, You will not despise." (NKJV, Psalm 51:16-17)
We have already had a sacrifice that has covered all our debts. Why do you come here with snide abuse, acting as though you are somehow above others? What are you looking for?
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Tom...wow, the big takeaway for me from this interview is how refreshingly brave and open-hearted you are in your quite personal admissions of the impact of your research on your worldview and belief persuasions...all while you and your stellar host for this interview are thinking and talking at a depth and with so finely-honed perception that I’m trailing far behind, yet with my thoughts greatly stirred.
Thank you both!
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Well done to the interviewer for letting Tom express himself so deeply.👍
Visiting from 3-and-a-half years in the future. Brilliant. Thank you.
Really a great interview. I appreciate how Glen lets his guest talk for long periods of time, but also has challenging questions. So thought-provoking and encouraging.
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Tom Holland on JRE is long over due. I like to think shows like this one are him building up to that
What’s JRE?
@@cheburrell2890 Joe Rogan Experience. I think Tom Holland would be an important guest for that specific show for a lot of reasons but one is that its the largest podcast audience
Here here!
I agree. I think he will likely speak with Jonathan Pageau and Jordan Peterson first though. Him and Pageau would be fascinating
@@06rtm I'd be happy to have him speak with them both, but it seems that as things stand, a lot of intelligent people are genuinely realising that true Christianity is not the fake version promulgated by the Church for the past 50 years or more, nor is it the straw man version that atheists imagine it to be. They are realising that there is an enlightening, encouraging, and reality-aligning effect of making the inner shift towards Christ's invaluable communications and all that followed, 2000 years ago and ever since.
Since we’ve had COVID and people are interviewed in their homes, one cannot help but notice that so many speakers have bookcases of varying degrees behind them. Got to say, Tom, your bookcase wins hands down! 🙂 Aside from that - interview was also fantastic. Thanks so much for allowing us more of Tom’s insights. 🙏
Sandra Coombs: It feels like a privilege just to listen to his words trying to express the profound thinking he is doing. Whenever I don't totally understand something he says, I feel instant loss.
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This is so good Glen. You’re doing a fantastic job my man!🙌
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Excellent interview. I love Tom's attitude as well as his intelligence. He seems a charming guy as well as a great intellectual. If only there were more honest conversations about things that matter like this, instead of partisan self-righteousness, society would be in a much healthier place.
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@@Coheirs2Heaven Thanks for your video review which I watched and will watch again. Lots to consider in your analysis. I particularly appreciated your point about Paul being given the major role when Paul himself would never have wanted that.
I am from India, the myth of the 'renaissance' and the myth of the "dark ages" was taught to me in school. And I believed that nonsense well into to my late thirties.
vakudibear: Join the club, we were all taught that.
I also found macro evolution to be bull straw as medieval people would put it. "Dinosaur" bones have been found to have some tissue in it. Also a lot of dinosaur like images have been found in places like Bishop Bells tomb, a temple in Cambodia, burrunjor.
Something i realized the other day, there's only 80 or so generations if I'm gauging that right, between you and the crucifixion and ressurection of Christ, that's not a lot of people looking at how little I have done with my life in 30 years, and look at the impact the death of a carpenter or labourer depending on if your reading latin or greek i bekieve, in what was considered a backwater of the Roman empire has had in 80 or so lifetimes, that everyone of us here's relatives lived through, it's amazing
So there was no renaissance? No dark ages?
@@orchidtang6873 those titles are like branding, in the UK we are told there is very little reliable record, yet the lineage of royal families is intact and even more ancient and our legal system is advanced to the point we have legal contracts that are upheld for 1000s of years, mostly land related, and these contracts are being honoured still that were signed before and during the so called dark ages, so they are dark for you and me but not the ones who hold the records, like for example I don't know my family past my grandfather's generation, but my government has records of births and deaths in my family presumably much older than that, Hell even in the desert with Moses thousands of years ago they were doing census of the population, and the reason Mary and Joseph went to Bethlehem was because they were taking part in a roman census, the guys in charge are in charge because they organise and administrate, they got that tradition from somewhere just as musician's musical theory or a professors mathematical systems are traditions, they have to be practiced continually or they are lost, this is why scientists do research, not new search, in Ecclesiastes it says there is nothing new under the sun, nothing, seems to imply everything we have we have always had, we just go through periods where we don't have it because of our own self destructive nature
If you read this Tom, I'm reading Dominion right now, and it's been a very informative ride! Plus this interview was so inspirational. Thanks for the dedication that you put into this book! And thanks to Speak Life for having this space. May the force be with you all, reader, because we all know that History hasn't come to an end and what that means. Be blessed! 🌌
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Thank you. So much to take in.
Tom Holland is at the top of requested guests I'd ask for pretty much every podcast I listen to. Tim O'Neill from Tasmania is another great guest I'd like to see more of too, when it comes to history.
I'll have to look into Tim O'Neill. What's a good first introduction to him?
@@SpeakLifeMedia Is this the man who writes interesting discussion of the Bible from an atheist point of view on Quora?
@@blaxlandpianopathways Don't think Tom's on Quora.
@@SpeakLifeMedia I was referring to Tim O'Neill
@@SpeakLifeMedia Tim O'Neill is a historian in medieval literature and Australian skeptic, but also one who is skeptical of New Atheist memes about history (Jesus Mythism, The 'Dark Ages', Medieval Flat Earth, What happened in Nicea etc) and writes a blog debunking them. His blog is called History for Atheists ( historyforatheists.com/ ). He's interesting as someone who very much supports Holland's view that Christianity played an important and positive role in Western Civilization, but believes that Jesus was not God and that there was no resurrection. Edit: He is also highly praised by Holland as an place for critical investigation on the topics of history.
Tom's point near the end regarding the paucity of Christianity's response to the crisis here is very telling.
Yes!
Perhaps Christians should ask why their 'loving' God makes so many viruses that wipes out millions of innocent folks.
@@iainrae6159 Perhaps the reason for that little snag has more to with us than with Him.
@@howardbabcom Book of Job and many other passages wrestle with the problem of evil.
I've had many personal rants at the 'church' and its complete lack of engagement with wider society on what is happening, not just with covid, but with extinction rebellion, blm and the rest. I see the likes of of John MacAruthur in the US opposing the politics of lockdown that restrict worship, and think even he has missed the point. Tom's comment is telling, where is the Cross and our teaching on suffering in the midst of this world wide suffering? I think the lampstand has been removed, the 'church' (global and institutional) no longer speaks for Christ.
Very interesting interview . Tom is a rare example of true objective historian. Passionate about history from an anthropological (Not political) perspective .... seeking truth objectively and not mindlessly sticking to preconceived ideas.
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Grateful for real and open conversations that explore the nuances, complications and queries of many people of faith, truth seekers & social questioners.
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This was amazing. Thanks for sharing!
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Great stuff Glen and Speak Life. Thanks also Tom for your hard work in tracing out history no matter where the outcome takes you.
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Hats off to your media/interview format.
This is just a great interview. Many thanks.
Thank you for engaging my mind in deductive reasoning rather than inductive doctrine.
We need more of such dialogues.
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Great book. Great interview. Would love to hear more.
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Love to listen to Tom Holland no matter where it is - The Rest Is History Podcast is fantastic!
Thank you. Great conversation.
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The historic case for the transcendental argument: w/o Christianity you can’t know anything (TAG) and you don’t have basically every civil liberty you take for granted (HAG).
Great conversation. On a similar pilgrimage with Solzhenitsyn and dostoevsky.
Although, prior to watching this video, I brought a copy of Canterbury tales from Goodwill.
Thanks for the video.
Brandon - excellent taste.
Great interview again. Thank you!
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So well said by Mr. Holland in a single sentence. It cannot be said simpler than this. "Christianity is the most *Transformative and Revolutionary* ideology that has ever existed" that is so simple to hear and clear but that doesn't minimize the massive power/effect about it. No better way but to hear it from a historian. I hope many people read these kind of books. The things may be easy to think but hard to realize in how many ways and how powerfully people's thoughts, psychology, social morality and general morality changed. And I ABSOLUTELY LOVE Mr. Holland's work on answering these from a historian's view. Thank you, sir, Tom Holland. If you read this.
A Christian from Bangladesh.
Leonardo.
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In the Triumph of the West, historian John Roberts notes that it was the Christian idea of Pilgrimage that gave the West the idea that history was going somewhere.
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@@Coheirs2Heaven Doesn't really address my point from John Robert's BBC documentary: ua-cam.com/video/hYH5VbJIKk4/v-deo.html
Very interesting and informative. Have been praying for Tom.
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This conversation was so good. Thank you. 🙏🏻
Glad you enjoyed it!
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This is my second listen. Excellent talk, particularly the last fifteen minutes.
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After reading Dominion I tried Augustine and Aquinas. A tough mission. Yet to believe in nothing? How boring. Like modernity.
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Tom sounds a bit like Jordan Peterson when he says "he behaves as if God exists".
Which is far more aligned with what Jesus taught and spoke of than : " I consent to this set of axioms as true " as if beleifs are set by doxastic voluntarism... or involuntarism.
Not to mince words, because I don't think you can get to one without the other.. the actions are the outworking of beleif and influence the level to which one adheres.
Great interview! Nicely done, and so hopeful for your lovely guest Tom Holland.
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My head just exploded! Holland's perspective has given me a lot to ponder. Thank You sir.
Lovely stuff and a really good rebuke to the church at the end on our pandemic response
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I've had Dominion on my Audiobook queue for a while, I should prioritise it. Paul VanderKlay references it often.
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Phenomenal discussion, learned a ton about my Faith. Thank you for putting this out
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Wise and honest, Mr. Holland - especially the calling-out of the ministers of the Church - and their pallid reaction to crisis. Thank you! Bless you! I'm reading "Dominion".
Fascinating. Really appreciated Tom Holland's thesis but also openness as he talked. "The response of the churches was a pallid echo of public health analysis " That was a challenge
Yes that was my big takeaway!
Pathetic but true. The churches cannot inspire the faith. Subjecting children to meaningless rituals is positively the worst thing you can do. Honestly, secular historians like Tom, like Alan Keyes the American diplomat and Catholic, men who are able to explain how Christianity gives us the framework to see justice prevail over injustice and vindicate the dignity of humankind are far more useful teachers.
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Like Jordan Peterson , Tom Holland is arguing what, as a Christian, I have always believed, the Christian message contains riches and comforts that transcend what purely rationality can comprehend. The answers to the existential questions of life presented by the Bible, are far more profound than the barren and ultimately nihilistic perspectives of post modernism. Will the church awake, appreciate what great treasures it holds and turn back to its source?
I think Holland is saying it's more about the doctrines of Christianity having shaped Western thought, such as secularism, rather than Peterson's focus on Biblical mythology, actually more on the Old Testament than the new, fundamentally shedding light on the way we encounter the world. But yeah, Holland could, I think, well fit into the IDW.
Jordan peterson brought me to Christ and I'm forever thankful. Blessed be God who used ppl to find his lost sheep.amen
Jordan peterson brought me to Christ and I'm forever thankful. Blessed be God who used ppl to find his lost sheep.amen
@@deeveevideos🙂 I'm curious,.. how ?
@@timstanley8201 it started out just watching all those videos and then I found his Christianity stuff very interesting and I wanted to know more and as I learned more about it I learned that it is the truth . Jesus Christ died for our sins and rose again 3 days later. and after reading the Bible and asking Jesus Christ to take over my life I started seeing all the stuff that ever thing I thought about the Bible was only from what other people said period and I think that's true for most people. So if you want to learn truth always look into it for yourself don't just listen to others and what their opinion is and that goes for anything. Just ask yourself if you're on a quest for happiness or a quest for truth. If you pick the right one you'll get both. Jesus Christ bless you amen
It was very interesting to hear your perspective, Tom. Thanks!
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Excellent presentation!!
Tom needs to check out the traditional catholic movement. Latin masses, priests having processions, hidden masses etc. The route is still there it has just gone underground unfortunately. But the movement is growing. Check out a Latin mass near your area.
FSSPX
@@solaveritas2 When you make something light, approachable, and accesible -- you destroy and neuter what it has that is trascendental.
When you make it inconsequential and kitsch, with bright lights and pastel light colours like in Europe; or pure musical sing-alongs like in the U.S.... you bastardize it.
It might be more "popular", it might help attract more people -- but it requires nothing of the churchgoer. There is no struggle, there is no philosophical potency to it, and it is elevating no one's soul.
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Time to start looking into Orthodox Christianity, Tom Holland. Back to the true roots of the faith
If you mean Eastern Orthodox, it is not Biblically Orthodox. They have additions to God's Word. Adding works as necessary for salvation, adding Mary as Mediatrix when the Scripture is clear that there is ONLY ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MAN, THE MAN CHRIST JESUS. Having a screen around the altar when the Scrioture tells us that at the death of The Lord Jesus on the cross the curtain of separation was torn in to from top to bottom so in the Book of Hebrews we are I invited to come before the throne of Grace with boldness because our Great High Priest has gone in before us. I would encourage you to study the Scriptures with a humble, prayerful and teachable heart.
@@angelakatsapas7894 . are you sure you have interpreted the scriptures more accurately than the church fathers, who dedicated their lives for Jesus and martyred for Him, as well and the historical church, which actually compiled the bible you are reading? you speak of a humble heart, yet you seem to believe to know the scriptures well enough to throw out such giants as Athanasius, Chrysostom. let go of your pride
@@orthochristos When the Scriptures says, "There is One Mediator between God and man, The Man Christ Christ Jesus". That is straight and unambiguous, I dont need any man to do hermeneutical gymnastics and interpret. What about, " There is no other Name under Heaven by which men may be saved. Paul warned the Christian's about false Teachers that will come out of their midst. God has preserved the Holy Scriptures for thousands of years. Men were burnt at the stake for translating the Scripture into English, during the Reformation when the Scriptures were given to the common people. Mao Tse Tung destroyed Bibles, closed churches, banished missionaries yet the Church in China has grown ex- ponentially. We read of Christian's imprisoned for the Faith and had small fragments of what had been secretly salvaged or memorised and written on scraps of paper. The word of God is powerful to regenerate and save as God's Spirit works in the heart of a sinner.
@@angelakatsapas7894 do you understand you are proving my point by exegeting snippets of the scriptures? Since you have a Greek surname, am I right to assume you read Greek? Έχεις διαβάσει τις Γραφές στα Ελληνικά? Όταν διαβάζεις κομμάτια της Βίβλου αποσπασματικά και όχι εντός περιεχομένου, γνωρίζεις πως μπορείς να βγάλεις ό,τι ερμηνεία θέλεις. Επαναλαμβάνω, λίγη ταπεινοφροσύνη δεν βλάπτει.
@@orthochristos I have the Greek Bible, and I have read ths Greek Bible. I was Greek Orthodox until the age of 26 when I was Born again by the Spirit and the Word. So I have been a Born Again Christian for the past 46 yrs. Now you know my age.
Thank you for the video.
So brilliantly put
I always learn SO MUCH from this man! Thank you Tom Holland.
Since the interview in which you mentioned that it was the Westerners that ascribed other nations with their 'religion' and their 'culture' (Judaism and Hinduism were mentioned) I too have seen Christianity as less of a religion and more of a culture too.
Hey, how about Tom gets together with Jordan Peterson for a two hour conversation! Yes please!! Gosh, you would have the world hanging on your every word, both of you! I'd like to hear the silence of that audience!!
If he doubts it, after reading so much, we are lost without Holy Spirit!
Beautiful interview.
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Great presentation👌 I really enjoyed it❤️ thank you for sharing 🙏
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TOM: I read 'DOMINION' during a personal retreat in the great Somerset Abbey of DOWNSIDE, last October. I need to re-read it: but I could listen to you for hours. How different the situation might have been today, had you been the occupant of the 'Chair of Augustine'; rather than the useless wimp who currently blocks it from a truly, Divinely-inspired, candidate! With regard to the Pelagian Controversy (and Augustine of Hippo's response - 'original sin') I love your point about those who claim we are continually forgiven through Jesus, who then go on to list those who are not so lucky: usually those the CLERGY deem to be 'sexual' sinners of one form or another (adulterers, fornicators, those who like 'exotic' sexual practices, homosexuals, you name us!). Through this current Flu' situation, I think the hierarchical Church has been tested, and found wanting. Check out those privileged gaggles of clergy who hang around English Cathedral closes. Now, they - The 'Church-of-Clergy' - are proudly announcing that 'they' are back in business. My hope is that the English cathedrals might be turned into Architectural museums (as most of them are; complete with entry fees!) and for the 'saints' (Paul's term for Christians) might revert to the practices of our primitive forebears: meeting in one another's homes, and baptising and sharing the Eucharist together, without the 'benefit' of "professional churchians".
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I bet Tom has never heard of E Michael Jones and his book the Jewish Revolutionary Spirit. The secular non woke conclusions he is reaching Jones reached 25 years ago from a Christian perspective.
Ha! That book is awaiting my collection of it, in a local Christian bookshop. Is it any good?
@@afifahhamilton8843 From a brief and basic research it appears Tom Hollands book is more comprehensive and deeper regarding the historical perspective.
lovely interview
That was fabulous. I loved it. Thank you.
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The Muslims nearly bit his head off for merely writing a book questioning Islam.
Wow. Great stuff. What would it mean for us to really submit to the story of the gospel? How would a hyper-individualistic society be turned on its head?
Christianity lived out looks something like Socialism honestly. Give away everything you can give, take the least amount you can.
A lot of Christians are against Socialism, for good reason. The Athiest Government and population has no higher calling to be virtuous or charitable so giving them power will *inevitably* and probably very quickly lead to mass corruption. But if we had a Christian Government and Christian population I don't see how it wouldnt resemble Socialism.
Hyper individualism is in part a symptom from hyper Capitalism which necessitates hyper competition. You can't be holding hands with your competitors
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Amazing video! Specially the end!
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Always stimulating to see someone really wrestle with the origins of something good, and see how God's unbroken line of justice and mercy traces through history.
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As stated on a recent video, I do not believe in God and never will, but acknowledge I don't know the answers. However, after 20 years of thought, it takes me to the conclusion, that to protect our liberty and civilisation, I have to support Christianity (not the evangelical extremist type of course, nor the Woke churches whom do not understand what they support). So if I, as someone that does not believe in God, supports the reenergising of Christianity, how many others are there? I know I am not alone. I am actually desperate fro Christianity to make a return. I think this would also make politicians love and respect and protect this country from themselves.
I am an agnostic but I see Christianity as a strong foundation for my son and my daughter’s marriages.
@Richard Wills- Woodward
This all makes complete sense if you accept the premise of Christian values.
When googled it, it’s all over the place but here is one I found.
Service
Thankfulness.
Compassion.
Endurance.
Creativity.
Justice.
Peace.
Wisdom.
These are NOT Christian values, rather universal. Christians have just adopted them and then claimed them to be theirs.
Compare any of these values with Chinese’s values and you will find them similar. Ask 10 different Christians what their values are and you will likely get ten answers.
I have been an atheist for 30 years and realising this was one of the last things to let go.
Tom just hasn’t realised it yet.
@@bigboy9983 Understand your point entirely and do agree. I suppose my point is that Christianity is the pot into which these best of human values can be distilled and form a framework around which society can build. Let's be honest, since 'Christianity' declined, we have fallen prey to Communism and anarchy in several forms and are currently in culture war with mentally ill adults that have adopted a children's playground way of thinking. It isn't serving us well.
If I wanted to philosophically ruin religion, I would simply say two things. 1) If there was a God, why was he not speaking BC. 2) If God spoke with one voice (or if there are several Gods), there would not be many religions. There would be one religion, experienced in the same way and by all. Creativity of humanity means creativity of mind to develop lots of religions...and they have.
@@richardwills-woodward5340 i wish there was a way to convey to you a more true and pure experience of what the essence of believing in Christ and our Creator or God is in the few words i am able to offer you here...
It isnt something you cant really understand with our limited intellect or understanding...it is a spiritual, inward and all encoumpassing strangely tangible faith...and relational rather than institutional ...more than intelllect, more than emotional, once you have it you never wish to be without it...like the one thing your soul has always longed for...you dont find it in the buildings or religious congregations necessarily, but you recognise those that gather there who share the same faith...and the joy of sharing that is true fellowship, friendship and community...the values we share and uphold are more than just words...but they are a reflection of the Spirit of unity and Spirit of Christ that changes our inward character and outward actions...
Sadly that has been marred by a form of 'christianity' or 'religion' made in mans image and likeness rather than Gods ...therefore denying the power there of....which is Love...not the Love of this world or the things in it..
Can i encourage you to pray and ask God if He is real...if He sent His son Jesus/ Yeshua to redeem this world and humanity including you and all those you love by giving His life for the forgiveness and redemption of all, so that we can have a new spirit, new nature, eternally....that He make Himself and the truth of who He is known to you in a very real, tangible and life changing way...
I pray all men, women and children the world over would know Him as He desires to be known...
( God is not a dictator or controlling...rather long suffering and patient...we have been given free will)
I pray you come to know your creator and the One that gives you life and breath...
Bless you
@@anitahosie8036 Those are kind words, and we experience spirituality (which I believe everyone has) in different ways and similar ways. Having read your words, it suggests the bible is man-made and does not represent what true faith is for you and others. Further however, and far more critically, it does not explain why Christianity only began after Christ, and with it, the teachings of the Bible, when man had been on Earth for hundreds of thousands of years before this. It also does not explain the plethora of other religions which sprang up in tandem with the age. There were many Gods before this worshipped of course, Zeus, Poseidon etc, and in ancient Egypt people worshipped something larger than themselves, but there was no Christianity, just a different entity to worship.... God or Gods(s).
The trouble for religion is it always falls on the most basic of investigations. Spirituality however, does not! Spirituality is what has been worshipped by people for thousands of years and is the essence of why many religions have sprung up - they are all expressions of the spirituality we all feel by looking at a beautiful and brooding landscape, at space on a clear night, with ore at nature and the thought of being insignificant in the universe, one that is far more strange than any science fiction movie. 'Something is out there' or 'what is this reality we all live in' - these are assumptive thoughts and philosophical questions which are deep and we will never be able to answer. They do however, form our humanity and what it is to be human. We are exceptionally advanced atomic structures that on inspection, are indeed stranger than fiction. We are anomalous in a universe of rock, radiation and gas, as well as emptiness. The idea that once you leave the Milky Way, you wouldn't see all the specs of light on a infrared picture, of galaxies and light is fantasy (as scientists will tell you - hence infrared). The reality is, you would see nothing except darkness for millions of light years and you may never see anything ever agin. It is terrifying. That is our reality. We don't have the answers. But we feel spirituality very strongly. The question is, which expression of that spirituality is best for human collective frameworks for life and existence. In my view, the expression is best embodied in Christianity.
Interesting video, thanks for sharing.
Excellent video!
Tom makes a cases for him swimming the Tiber. However he should definitely swim it in his particularly English charisim and style.
Tom will someday say, “Rome sweet Home.”
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"As a liberal I have lost my faith"....are these things connected?
Tom Holland explains in the video what he means by this.
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I have been a Tom Holland fan since finding "Millennium..." several years ago, and am now in the midst of "Dominion". He is worth reading.
But I want here to thank him for the profound truths he expresses here. As a recently retired pastor, I was rebuked by his comments on how we could have addressed the pandemic: I have thought so often about the opportunities we have missed but been unable to see what we should or could have done.
And even more, I was touched by Tom's personal story toward the end, which is where his story is becoming the another part of the story which began in a garden. He was brave in sharing what was clearly not comfortable, but needed to be said; and, in doing that, he has also encouraged me. My thanks to Tom Holland.
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Tom's talking of te roots and the understanding of Athenian democracy is so enlightening.
The insight around culture essentially returning to a semi-Pelagian structure is awesomely astute - Have you thought of interviewing Oliver O’Donovan on the channel? I think his political theology really ties into the discussion very well!
omgosh loved desire of nations
Good suggestion!
So this is the new Spider Man?
Dang, they keep casting older and older actors.
Lol
It’s a good way to get young people to read history...
Great show, great guest.
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Thank you, Tom. 🌹
Being ‘not a Muslim’ isn’t neutral. More people need to hear that idea that “not believing in God” isn’t a default or neutral position.
Whats a neutral position? Lacking a belief in anything would seem the default position
@@Fuzzawakka you'll find that psychologists are coming to the conclusion that we are wired to believe in the supernatural. Even many atheists agree that we all desire something beyond ourselves to find meaning and purpose.
@@CriticalWitness
We hear a noise down the end of the house we think what could that be?
We go through the possibilities. A burglar? A tree rubbing against the window? A cat?
This is just thinking in the abstract.
God used to be the explanation for those unsolved questions.
Earthquakes? Floods? Lightning?
We now know better.
After scientific investigation the answer is not god.
@@bigboy9983 that’s not how we view God but it’s a nice straw man.
@@CriticalWitness ''You'll find that psychologists are coming to the conclusion that we are wired to believe in the supernatural.''
Oh, really? Link to a peer-reviewed study on this assertion if you please.
Good interview, because Tom's intellectual and scholarly journey is instructive, and one most Westerners should embark upon. But this awakening is not unique to Mr. Holland, it is not some profound discovery no one else has divined. Many see how historical culture has shaped modern perceptions and worldviews Its been fundamental to acknowledge different worldviews shaping values of morality, self-image relationships and socio-economic-political institutions in the field of anthropology since its inception That, in fact, is what anthropology as a social science is. Most recently, the anthropologist and Harvard professor Joseph Henrich has written several books on the topic, his specialty, with The WEIRDest People in the World: How the West Became Psychologically Peculiar and Particularly Prosperous being definitive.
Its also why we constantly say that the US specifically, being a product of the Reformation and the Enlightenment, and the West generally, is "rooted in Judeo-Christian values" without really having to define them. The most basic is the unique idea that humankind is created in God's image, a concept that is totally rejected as blasphemous by Islam. That basic idea underpins all of humanism, and our concepts of human rights, dignity, choice, forgiveness, fairness, and an innocence/guilt morality instead of a shame/honor and us/them morality prevalent in other cultures. That Genesis and Exodus, and the Gospels provide the moral foundations not only of liberalism, but also even for the very enemies of Christianity and Judaism, indeed of all religions: post-modernism, communism, Liberation Theology and even Critical Race Theory, is pretty obvious to anyone who has read the foundational texts and their concordant chapters of the Old and New Testament. Unfortunately, none of this is touched upon in modern education which has been dumbed down to a pop-up book version of Howard Zinn's People''s History. That's why educated, thoughtful people like Tom Holland can be genuinely shocked and amazed to discover the source of their own beliefs.
This topic is, however, explored regularly in conservative Western thought circles, as people try to understand why conflict continues unabated despite globalism and many seemingly "universal" interests. It is no coincidence that many historians and thinkers in those circles are educated in, if not practicing, their Jewish or Christian faith, so they can quickly see the disparities that are hidden from the secular liberals who "went to Sunday school" as little children to hear Bible stories, at best.
The inability of Westerners to recognize that most other societies are based in kinship/tribe and religion for economics and politics, and many on father's-brother's-daughter first-cousin marriage, polygamy, child-marriage and forms of slavery, that superstitious animism like the "evil eye" and shamanism remains nearly universal outside the West including in Islamic cultures, and that most of what the West sees as corruption or lying is a moral imperative of taking care of relatives or public face-saving for the tribe elsewhere is our unique myopia.
Fantastic conversation with a brilliant mind and honest soul.
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Just brilliant. I loved Dominion and the depth of Tom Hollands research and thought.
Also loved his commitment to the biblical stories. After years of teaching religion to kids I found myself saying it doesn’t matter if they’re literally true and trying to prove that or otherwise is a red herring. What matters is that they carry profound truth. ❤
Very interesting, affirming (keep preaching the gospel), convicting (his comments on the church's pandemic response) and frustrating; frustrating that he sees the power of the Christian stories in other people's lives and seeks that power for himself, but hopes to find the foundation and power without the factual truth of those stories. Can someone significantly deny themselves, take up their cross and follow Jesus without the certain hope that Jesus is the Christ who will literally reign over all nations forever in justice? Can you despise the shame and endure the cross without the hope set before you? His reasons for dismissing the truth of Genesis and therefore the whole bible make me want to give every penny I can scrape together and send it to Ken Ham.
:-) On the historical point, he does say more elsewhere. Eg speaklife.org.uk/2019/10/20/considering-tom-hollands-dominion-part-2/
Lol, Ken Ham? If god ever made a bigger idiot than Ken Ham he kept him for himself.
Obviously Mr.Holland has never experienced the deeper aspects of Hinduism nor met one of its living saints. I have met 3 of the women saints called Amma's the most powerful being Sri Karunamaji, who radiated Universal Divine Love like a force field around her.
The trouble is that Christianity sees us as separate from God, but other faiths realise that God creates us from itself and is within us. Hence Christianity will use logic to find God when what it needs is a quietness of the mind.
What an interesting comment.
@@afifahhamilton8843 Well then, I dedicate it to you!! Happy seeking and never forget... you are your soul. ;-)
@@markkavanagh7377 Ha! Another interesting comment!
I don't think I have heard any one saying 'You are your soul' before. I'll think on't.
Ta. :)
@@afifahhamilton8843 ;-)
I don't understand westerner's fascination with eastern crap,Practices of hinduism is obscure there isn't a central belief in hinduism you can do what ever you wanted to do, In hinduism gods are more or less like human being,they live immoral life,commit adulteries,speak lies,murder people and then DIE etc.Only triune GOD is holy and has power to save human being,you are separated from him because of your own sins,but christ is our perfect mediator in christ we are united with god.It's easy for you to live in western countries build on foundation of christianity and talk like hinduism is something different and is true but in reality come to hindu shithole country and you will see real hinduism.
Fantastic video
Great Interview. Please Keep it up.
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@@Coheirs2Heaven Yes. Thank you the theological clarifications
I respect Tom but I cannot go with him here. *He* sees things through a "Christian lense". Most of us have not and not read the bible or Torah. To sat that George Floyd was "put to death" proves his skewed way of thinking.
Some, and I do mean some, of the stories and fables and fabrications in the bible are useful. But so are comics and all of the rest of it and they arent true either.
Bible stories transcend the myth cycle. Old testament introduced ethics and real history, and the new testament, forgiveness.
Believe or burn is forgiveness?
@@bertrandrussell894 Yes, that bit isn’t about forgiveness, only our choice. But N.T. teaches US how to forgive.
@@vonroretz3307 By abdicating your responsibility to a supernatural being you mean?
I love the idea we send ourselves to hell -meaning an eternity of torture in fire for a finite crime. This in part is why it always mystifies me that people have the notion that Xtianity is moral or somehow "fair". It isnt either. Its superstition laced with a sado-masochistic and psychopathic bent.
@@vonroretz3307 ''Old testament introduced ethics'' Such as Incest, genocide and slavery, for example?
Incredible talk, I thoroughly loved the thesis and explanation,I am reading this book during Christmas holidays 😊
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Excellent interview. Honest man of iniquity.
Integrity sorry.
Really enjoyed listening to Tom and Glen.... fascinating!
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Great talk. Tom Holland is a great author and historian. He is probably among my favorite modern academics due to his true professionalism and respect. Many have lost that respect in academia. Persian Fire and The Forge of Christendom are my favorite books so far. I recently started Rubicon.
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