Editorial clarification: in our interpretation, this study shows only a cessation of meta-consciousness (the explicit, metacognitive awareness of what is experienced), not of phenomenal consciousness (the raw experience itself). The two are distinct, as empirical research has shown (e.g. www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1364661302019496 ). Often, the lack of meta-consciousness leads the subject to concluding they had no experience, while in fact phenomenal consciousness was present, even during dreamless sleep (e.g., www.cell.com/trends/cognitive-sciences/abstract/S1364-6613(16)30152-8 ). It is impossible to reliably infer the absence of phenomenal consciousness based on subjective reports. This is the case even for general anaesthesia, (see, e.g., “Anesthesia and Consciousness,” by John Kihlstrom and Randall Cork, published in The Blackwell Companion to Consciousness, 2007), this being the reason why one of the drugs in the anaesthesia cocktail is meant to prevent the subject from forming memories. All that can be ascertained with confidence is that a subject doesn't _remember_ having been conscious. Ascertaining that one was phenomenally unconscious is equivalent to stating, paradoxically, that one consciously remembers being unconscious. This fundamental ambiguity in subjective reporting is the reason why neuroscientist Nao Tsuchiya has proposed a no-report paradigm for consciousness research (e.g., www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1364661315002521 ). Clinical psychologists and many neuroscientists use the word 'consciousness' in the sense of meta-consciousness. The cessation of meta-consciousness and/or the absence of memories of consciousness don't contradict idealism at all. If phenomenal consciousness had ceased during meditation, meditators presumably wouldn't know how/when to come back, for, unlike the wearing off of drugs in anaesthesia, here the state is induced by the meditator themselves.
I don't think this is quite correct. For the mediator, it is cessation of both meta-consciousness and phenomenal consciousness. He said it's like being under anesthesia. No perception, not even a sense of time passing. Idealism of a sort is still possible here because, although the world disappears for the mediator, it does not disappear for others. The question of how the mediator knows when to come back might be answered in the fact that they set an intention. Intentions do not need to be continuously monitored in order to bear fruit.
@@markcounseling Well I don't remember, but I'd argue that doesn't mean I wasn't conscious of anything. One of the ingredients of anesthesia is known to affect memory. People also experience loss of memory of events leading up to the anesthesia, but they were conscious at the time. I also don't remember being asleep last night, but I was conscious the entire time (because I would've woke up if a loud noise happened)
@@_WeDontKnow_ You would not wake up no matter what happens if you're properly anesthetized. That indeed is the point of it. Meta-consciousness typically means thinking about or being aware of thought, the self, or awareness itself. It's self-reflective and has content. Phenomenal consciousness typically means experience of the sense fields. Both of these are gone in this state of cessation. I have a feeling, though I'm not sure it's correct, that there is some intent here to save Idealism at the expense of what the interviewee actually said. How are people understanding that phenomenal consciousness remained during cessation? In what way? What phenomena? It's certainly possible that I'm just missing something here; maybe you can help, thanks for trying.
It's so impressive how Ruben can respond to the most difficult and fundamental questions. Thank you both for the interview! Thank you Essentia for providing this brainfood to a wide audience. Also want to mention the extraordinary audio quality which comfortably allows listening for 2+ hours.
Being a Drukpa monk i was familiar with thukdam, but being a scientist i thought it was crazy until i read the physician reports from the death of the 16th Karmapa who died in Zion, Illinois, and realized it was all true! Had not heard of neruda samapati, not being extremely familiar with Theraveda, so i am SO glad you did this!! Incredible!!
This discussion feels sooo smoooth to me. I appreciate perceived synergy between the two of you. Many insights well articulated and accurate. Models presented are already integrated in me. But it's cutting edge of scientifi understanding. I think Ruben would like The Philosophy of Difference I am studying now. I don't have anything against Bernardo's view but some points presented here in contrast resonate with me more. Thank you for participating in my reality. ☺🙏🏻❤
Outstanding exchange. The leaves are changing in Maryland, i went on a very long walk today, its a beautiful day out again. This exchange synced beautifully with my walk today. Thank you both ☀️🍂❤️✌️
I'm doing a PhD in embodied cognition - which combines Buddhism, Western phenomenonology, biology & Neuro-science - so I found this discussion absolutely fascinating. There is so much I can draw on here for my own thesis - I'll have to listen again! Thanks Essentia Foundation & Rubin!
@@saylidapse1812I'm at University of New England (Australia) in the philosophy school. Monash in Melbourne have a Centre for Contemplative & Consciousness Studies - which is where the speaker in this interview teaches. Both are good places for post-grad philosophy of mind. Monash is good for Neuro-science. One of my colleagues at Monash did electrical engineering for undergrad & is doing PhD on philosophy of mind. So various ways in. Good luck!
I have had what is termed "out of body experiences" , and my awareness was definitely not inside my body. It became "non-local" so to speak and I was able to "fly" and travel to a specific place and watch what was happening.
Me too. Being going "out of body" since I was a small child, in total awareness, totally conscious. It's very natural and everybody's focus of awareness does this every night when we sleep, it's down to whether you remember doing it once you're back in body. That's the catch.
@@deckofcards87if this were true you could enter people’s houses and see secrets. If this were true you could enter boardroom conversations and buy stocks based on it and get very wealthy
@@deckofcards87 From my extremely limited and semi-conscious experience, I've come to realize whenever I'm in this state, the world seems to directly revolve or change according to my intentions. As opposed to the physical plane where I have to interact with the world to inspire change....it's hard to accurately describe. In other words, the physical plane is a world of action, whereas the astral is a plane of thought/intention. Both are quite similar, but the physical is evidently more dense and requires more "hands on" action to do anything. Ugh...
This is very interesting but be cautious in inferring that an experience of mind says something profound about the metaphysics (the study of the structure and nature of reality - especially beyond empirical observations) & ontology (the nature of being) of reality. That doesn't mean there isn't anything vauleable to take from the experience but rather, to keep the humility that there may be a lot more knowledge about the nature of our experience. In other words, don't stop and raise your flag at what might be a step, not an end. 😊
First, this is a great channel! Second, I love Battlestar Galactica and the psychology behind it. It seems almost as if the sci-fi in that series has manifested our real science AI/AGI fact future. Or At least within a modest relative accuracy. The question of are we the chicken or egg as far as alien intelligence or just ancient intelligence, I think this is still within the boundaries of question
Reading the paper right now, so pleased to see that there is such a lot of good quality research going on into the practice and effects of meditation, looking forward to reading more. "Groundlessness of the mind" could be represented by the idea that 'ground' is only meaningful in a system that is pervaded by gravity. With no gravity, ground is just another surface and not the one to which we are always pulled or pushed. Gravity can be likened to the investment of one's experience in one's idea of self; when that investment is beyond a certain point, we can no longer tell the difference between what is happening and what we are - which is how most of us live. Everything is happening to us and we draw all phenomena towards ourselves, like gravity. Meditation progressively dissolves that force and opens to freedom.
Around 1:25 you are speaking of an ultimate changing reality... I would argue however, that constant change implies a non-changing background; without it, change cannot be detected. This is why concepts like Nirguna Brahman and Maya (or Saguna Brahman) in Hinduism, and 'Buddha Nature' in Buddhism, arise. Thus, an unchanging 'reality' must exist that, through reflection (or 'Maya'), manifests as a co-dependent 'changing reality.' Ultimately, these two aspects are non-dual." The 'changing reality' being an 'appearance' within the 'non-changing' reality. I love this dialogue, btw!!! Brilliant, and insightful!
Steve you're my new best friend this is just what I say to Buddhists going on about impermanence - knowledge of change assumes an unchanging measuring stick. Which makes claims of total impermanence of reality Impossible to prove in a logical kind of sense.
@@peterjones6507 knowledge of change implies memory and time. Total impermanence implies no permanent memory. No permanent memory implies no reliable way to demonstrate impermanence. It self-cancels. Buddhists usually don't get this because they just quote doctrine.
What he is referring to is what Ramana Maharshi would call Mona Laya, temporary (Laya) cessation of mind (Mona) waves vs Mona Nasa, permanent (Nasa) destruction of mind waves. Regardless of how long someone's is in Mona Laya the mind will pick up right where it left off before entering the state, hence no change. Whereas Mona Nasa leads to permanent change and eventually Self-realization.
I hope The Essential Foundation will consider creating some podcasts out of these great talks. Some of us have commutes and/or jobs where this would be perfect listening!
@kafkaten I have a workaround for that. Copy the video link (the "Share" button). Then start the program "4K Video Downloader" (this is a free open source software). Click on the button "Paste link". When you do that, the program takes you to the options: download audio or download video. You choose between the two and it does the downloading to your computer. NOTE: I have noticed that for some reason, these days there's a very long pause between clicking the "Paste link" button and when the download options appear. It could take up to four or five minutes. Hope this helps.
Or...just turn you phone around/hang a hanky over it/turn your screen darker/practice focus and attention and just don't look, and just listen.😊 I can find the skip[the annoying ads]-button while driving and not looking at the screen, and i have average sensory abilities. It takes only a short time to learn..
To understand meditation, one must read the source texts. Meditation is a general and confusing term. It does not point to a specific practice. There is no "fundamental way" to meditate. Meditation is a process requiring multiple steps, and in its most basic formulation, those steps are 8. 1. Yama (abstinences) By training directing the will, one gains the ability to gain distance from compulsion and to observe it. This is the first step. Without creating this distance, there can be no meditation. 2. Niyama (observances) By following the guidelines of cleanliness, contentment, discipline, study of the self, and surrendering to the highest state of being, one develops the positive patterns of behavior required for meditation. 3. Asana (posture) By holding the physical body in specific postures, one creates a conducive atmosphere within the body for stillness, calmness, and balance of physical wellbeing. Without practicing Asana, there can be no meditation. 4. Pranayama (breathing technique) Breathing is work upon the physical body. Essentially, the breath occurs in patterns. These patterns must be observed. The science of Pranayama is for the purpose of developing the sense for the most intimate physical activities and how they affect the body and mind. Without developing a deep intimacy with our physiological processes, there can be no distance from the body and mind, hence no meditation. 5. Pratyahara (withdrawal of sense perceptions) When you withdraw your sense perception after completing the above steps, all senses begin to observe the inner processes: The visual field behind the eyelids, the auditory field within the brain, the sense of touch in relation to the inner organs, the sense of smell of the breath through breathing through the nose, and the sense of taste of the palate within the mouth. Without directing the senses inwards and observing the inner processes of body and mind, there can be no meditation. 6. Dharana (one-pointed concentration) First, focus must be on an object. Any object. This focus must be honed. The flame of a candle is recommended, but a doorknob will do just as well. Training the faculty of concentration on an external object can lead to a state of concentration with eyes closed that is similar to looking at an external object, except within the mind, the object can be seen from all perspectives at once. This is the goal of one-pointed concentration. Concentration means both focus and intensification of density at once. The process could be analogized to trying to create a blackhole within the mind. What the blackhole does in the universe is to fold spacetime upon itself. The same is the prerequisite to meditation. 7. Dhyana (meditation) It is only after all the above processes have been honed that meditation begins. Dhyana is the cessation of mind. It is only after mind has been observed sufficiently that mind and its processes can be selectively turned on and off as needed. In order to reach this state, while remaining conscious of one's inner experience, one must follow the above steps. Skipping steps will lead to slipping and falling back in terms of progress. This is why most human beings cannot meditate. Dhyana is a state in which waking, dreaming, and deep sleep, are observed simultaneously and continuously. To know if one is in meditation, one can observe one's sleep. Continuous lucid dreamless sleep is an indicator of ongoing meditation. Meditation is not an activity. It is a state of being. Meditation is the natural state. If we were all in this state, confusion and conflict would be impossible. 8. Samadhi (absorption) Samadhi is the natural consequence of meditativeness. Once the identity is no longer with body and mind, the identity suddenly becomes boundless, taking on its natural qualities. In this state, the external observer looking at the body of the individual in Samadhi will experience them to be in a state of cessation. In reality, the awareness is completely directed at itself in this state. It is a state of recursive awareness of awareness. Once awareness is recursive as such, something beyond body and mind emerges into experience. The person ceases to exist. The persona ceases to exist. The identity as such ceases to be attached to any manifestation. The experience of body and mind cease. In their place is the experience of bliss, or the baseline state. It is from this natural state that the wisest of human beings across the ages have expressed that the Self is the same in All. This is a clear indication of transcending the first (I-me), second (I-thou), and third (I-them) person perspectives, opening up the fourth person (I-I) perspective, or Turiya. It is from the state of Turiya that one dissolves into all, where waking, dreaming, and deep sleep are one and the same in one's experience. The I-me relation is that of Self to Ego. The I-thou and I-them relations are those of Self with perceived other. The I-I relation is that of Self with Self alone. That Self is the same in All, and that Self is the true Self. It is only through following the above-mentioned practices that this experience may become a reality for all.
Damn yo! Thanks for that dump! I would save this video anyways, but I'll definitely save it, along with some screen shots as an easy quick reference to help me along. TY, TY, TY and peace all!
Terminology is essential. The best description of what is going on during described cessation is given by Rupert Spira. It is cessation of mind, not consciousness. Mind being the thought and perception, inner and outer. Consciousness does not cease. If it did, what or who would be able to refer to described insight of Freedom?
@@manjukasoysa3901 The one outside spacetime. ‘When’ there is no thought and no perception there is no ‘you’, no time, no space constructed. There is just being
@@grzegorz4636 Cessation of the mind activity , while maintaining awareness doesn't stop the experience of time. In the particular case discussed , there's no experience of time during cessation . Rupert Spira seems to be referring to the earlier scenario , unless he can also go in to nirodha samapatti for seven days.
No that’s not true. What you are describing is a different state. Cessation really is the cessation of consciousness. He said it is a blip with no time passing. What is there to be conscious of if there is no time?
As you talk about the witnessing self I visualise a part of me that is standing separate Which makes me think of splitting My observer the witness has become a scientist attempting objectivity (which it can’t really have cos it’s connected to my experiencing self (my automatic) a more aware sensory perceiver that is not interested in what I think It’s busy breathing and healing and regulating a billion aspects of information in it’s field If I stop trying to observe and just be in it If I sort of dewitness or witness only a tiny bit my body and particularly my breathing seems to break out like I’ve been running and then I take deeper breaths which I can’t naturally do in my ordinary waking consciousness The space between feels like a relief to stop watching surgically taking me apart and I find inner pain or blocks relieved by automatic breathing and melting into a quieter state So interesting 🙏🏻 Thank you
Very interesting video and guest! Really enjoyed his insights. I have a little push back with his metaphysics ideas though: It seems to me he is model of consciousness is more akin to Rovelli’s relational quantum mechanics, in which is relations all the way down. We are like whirlpools in the ocean where then the ocean is a whirlpool in a bigger ocean and it goes indefinitely. There are obvious a lot of problems with these ideas and I didn’t see him trying to address it. Everything seems to fit nicely as he said in a sort of eternal loop in which the input is its output, but then if there are no “ground-base” is it relating to what? To itself? Isn't that a cheap way of having the cake and eat it? Either way, enjoyed very much the video and everything else he was talking, great job for both of them, interesting material and minds!
I actually like the part of relations all the way down, there is a lot of people who is critisizing substance ontology, like James Filler, I think physics is moving little by little to relations as the ground of being
I think of reality as one of those pieces of mosaic artwork made up of individual images, but together, they make a completely different picture. Each individual image is a reality, and each reality creates the whole of the reality we experience.
From my understanding, your guest is talking about a hibernation like state, which animals like bears do it every year. I may simplifying but it seem to me very similar.
That's an interesting parallel you're drawing. My impulse is to think/say that bears don't consciously, intentionally do this, but then again, maybe there is a common thing going on. Maybe it's all triggered and driven through instincts, but I don't think we're yet capable of understanding just what animals or plants, etc are aware of, or what they do with conscious intent. I think humans are still very full and fool of themselves.
It is interesting thinking about how the Great Indian Sage Shankara once went in to state similar to what is being talked about(but mistakenly understood as deep Samadhi state). His disciples thinking he is dead burnt his body. This resulted in his conciousness taking refuge on a bird's soul temporarily, till it could find a suitable human host(a young man that had died). So, seems like Cessation is different, in which it is similar to literal death(or more of an hibernation?),and can be somehow switched back later. So, it lacks time and space. Brought back memories of Itzhak Bentov's theories on conciousness. The question is what happened to Conciousness during that time?. The discussion of AI evolving is a breath of fresh air, than the typical doom and gloom projections promoted everyday. Very interesting and deeply intriguing and engaging discussion indeed.❤️👍
Sri bhagavan ramana maharishy replied, there is no conciousness which is a construct of the mind and that has solved into the SELF , its is beeing / God / you are all , (no more reincarnation.)
Given that there are even processes of inorganic self-organisation I have no difficulty in conceiving that AI can and will become conscious. It seems to me it too is subject to the interdependence that Ruben Laukkonen speaks of. Great interview! We are at a very exciting juncture in human evolution.
I feel trapped by solipsistic thoughts after exploring analytical idealism and non-duality . It’s challenging to reconcile profound insights, like those from Ramana, with everyday life. While I crave truth, I also want to maintain my mental well-being. I enjoy the journey of learning, but the implications of these truths can be overwhelming. Is there anyone else who can relate to this?
@@jessiemolhoek9050 I definitely relate to these struggles in the past! On one level you are as unreal as others. 'You' are just a character narrative that appropriates certain constructed experiences of a body-mind, on that level when experiences becomes mine vs others or this experience opposed to that experience that I cannot access you simply don't know if others are conscious. To say that others are conscious is not more inferential/an extra assumption as much as saying that they aren't conscious. That's why endorsing solipsism is stupid. You simply don't know and will never know because if you did know there would be no seperation to say that others are there to be or not be conscious. It also doesn't matter for your everyday life, even if solipsism would be true you would still love others as much, have the same emotional responses etc. Just make sure to not bypass your conventional life and preferences and take care of yourself.
@@jessiemolhoek9050 On one level you are as unreal as others. 'You' are just a character narrative that appropriates certain constructed experiences of a body-mind, on that level when experiences becomes mine vs others or this experience opposed to that experience that I cannot access you simply don't know if others are conscious. To say that others are conscious is not more inferential/an extra assumption as much as saying that they aren't conscious. That's why endorsing solipsism is stupid. You simply don't know and will never know because if you did know there would be no seperation to say that others are there to be or not be conscious, unless you believe in mind reading. It also doesn't matter for your everyday life, even if solipsism would be true you would still love others as much, have the same emotional responses etc. Just make sure to not bypass your conventional life and preferences and take care of yourself.
I've had what I believe to be cessations during meditation as well. It's complete lights out, there was really no control and I couldn't willfully bring it about or control the state. Just complete blank, disappearance of all phenomena. Like being knocked out. I could only tell it happened because my body position had changed
I got into non-materialism in 1967 when I took LSD for the first-time aa a radical materialist atheist. Academically and professionally I have been chemist, biochemist, neurochemist, software engineer (including AI) and a writer. I meditate and use self hypnosis as well as using psychedelics. I agree that most life is meditation. My question how about peak experience. Both in writing software and fiction there are times when the ego disapears and the Daemon takes over. The bestcwork happens and I let the unuverse be and just be thec dspassionate observer. I imagine that is an example of meditation too. Thanks. I never thought of it in that way.
Mm Read some other comments and I think he’s telling of a stage where the witness doesn’t try to abstract define or real-lize what’s happening but just observes without intent And not observation in visual terms but just simply the tiny ripple of acknowledgment that something is occurring within the body To allow it to rejig reregulate without the mind creating contraction and control and limiting semantics about what may be ‘really’ happening After alll the body and minds’ sentient existence is bigger than words and abstractions It’s the whole and not the abstraction it’s capable of? Excellent video
It is a beautiful statement at 1:27:23 that "we need a better word than simulation" We do need it. That "simulation" staff is a trend now, most probably inspired by the current rise of computer technologies. However, it seems to be a dangerous thing for our minds, diving into superficial fantasies about something of what we experience being "unreal" or "not that real".
When i meditated regularly i was eventually, after about 2 years, able to reach a sort of consciousness null-state. Staying in this state was extremely difficult for me, though, because it is terrifying for the ego. Most of the time i would spring out of it instantly. After a while i could let go for a few seconds at a time. I think the longest i was ever able to handle was about 30 seconds (its hard to gauge time in that state). The idea that people can go days like this is fascinating to me. I heard one practitioner say it took them 10 years of extended daily practice to reach an hour.
LAYERS / LEVELS OF SELF: A MODEL | ~15:00 to 20:00 ... Narrative Self Embodied Self Witnessing Self Pure Awareness, Presence, Being Beyond Self: Cesation of Consciousness
Truely fascinating stuff. Reminds me of the Heart Sutra we chant every day at the Zen monastery: "So in emptiness there is no form; no sensation, conception, discrimination, awareness; no eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind; no color, sound, smell, taste, touch, phenomena; no realm of sight, no realm of consciousness; no ignorance and no end to ignorance, no old age and death and no end to old age and death, no suffering, no cause of suffering, no extinguishing, no path, no wisdom, and no gain. No gain and thus the bodhisattva lives Prajna Paramita,"
Holy Fuck Ruben, as someone studying all this stuff, astavakra Gita, hinduism, all the modern stuff, jungian therapy aaaaaand so forth I couldn't name it all, I feel your struggle to explain it but you are quite fascinatingly clear with all you say and I love even tho how direct it is it's still not explicit but implicit most of the time so it doesn't cause any defensive position on the opposing party. GREAT WORK!!!!
1:34:00 “I’ve managed to say something without the language of time.” What does change mean without time? I’m going to look through this inference theory paper but I get skeptical when I see Bayesian models and what not in a theory of consciousness. Appealing to math doesn’t solve the hard problem imo.
For people that may feel threatened, scared or having an existential crisis because of the implications of this states. I've been in you place and I know how you feel, but if you let it be, if you let it go, you'll see that you fears are unjustified and they'll dissappear. I have something to say. This doesn't capture my full view, but I tend to visualize consciousness as if somewhat was building over itself upon layers over layers of abstraction, each layer being "isolated" in a certain way (not truly isolated but more like a wave). So in that sense you can have also multiple branches of development upon those layers, and multiple "beings". The universe is singular, but "consciousness" is not singular, it is distributed. So you can infer some kind of ground in that "distributed groundlessness", but that ground is not a solid ground where you could rest, because the "true ground" is the totality of existence, the totality of the dynamics, the *whole.* There's no real "stillness", true stillness is impossible, but there can still seem to be "stillness" from particular points of view. So this "cessation" is not really a cessation of consciousness (since consciousness is not a thing neither a state), it's just the cessation of a particular process/state as it gets completely deconstructed. Reality keeps unfolding and "consciousness" keeps going on in the world, and nothing gets lost! (not forever at least because there's an impetus -love- within the universe that wants to bind and integrate everything as much as possible) There is an awful existential terror when you hear about this states without having the real insight. That fear kicks in because of identification, you still try to grasp onto something and call it "consciousness", you're still looking for some ground where "you" can rest. Let it go.
well the brain is pretty good at covering information of the senses. For example - there is a small blind spot that both of our eyes cannot see and the brain is pretty good at hiding it. Everything we know is the model of reality created by our brain and not the "real" reality.
@@ThoArtOne By brain I mean mind. We are the prisoners of our own mind. Its just observation. Just ask what is the proof of the world. Its the senses.There is massive limitations with the information coming from the senses. On top of that out brain literally makes things up or fills up when there is lack of information.
Can we use "prayer" or affirmations (or pick a cultural equivalent) to affect the points of the "I AM"'s traversal through the infinite states of possibility to make "miracles" happen in our 5 sense world?
Wonderful stuff with many nuggets...I think the threshold is likely to be at the point (probably already passed in the MIC) when machine intelligence can program itself without human consent, as it will inevitably, having a higher IQ than humans, find a way to circumvent such controls....
This is very interesting. I have been fortunate enough to have a spiritual awaking. I am still new to this and figuring out stuff. Can not imagine sitting for seven days. I would think the human body would become very stiff almost painful. Not to mention the lack of water that the body needs to function ?
Well, if the subjective 'interval' between one state of awareness and the next is instantaneous, as there would be zero experience of any passage of time, how can it be said that there was a cessation of awareness? How long is instantaneous? When exactly did awareness cease, and then return? How does 'when' even apply, in the absence of any experience of time?
Awareness does not cease. It is instead directed at itself by rotating it 180 degrees. Recursive awareness of awareness is the basest and highest state of consciousness. It is placing the mirror up against the mirror, thereby allowing the reflections to multiply infinitely. It is much like a total solar eclipse. You need only observe it once to know that the moon and the sun reflect one another in a profound way, that when the moon reflects the light of the sun completely, within a moment, a total darkness bathes the external environment, and all concentration of light is one-pointed in the jewel on the periphery of the moon and sun intersection. There are no intervals in awareness. Awareness is pervasive and beyond time. There are intervals in the breath. There is the in breath and out breath. If you look at it in this way, you will see no cessation of breath. However, when breathing in reality, there is the in-breath, retention, out-breath, and extension. It is in the states of retention and extension that there is cessation of mind, not awareness. In this sense, spacetime, which is a construct of mind, folds upon itself, thereby making the temporal dimension a spatial one experientially. When time is experienced as a spatial dimension, there is no experience of intervals. Awareness never ceases. Awareness pervades everything. We have lost our identification with awareness because we have not observed it. Instead, we are observing the floating thoughts, emotions, and physical states that appear before our eyes like dreams. Cessation of consciousness is not possible. This is a conscious universe. The universe is awareness of awareness. Once this is experienced, there is no more distinction between the self and the universe, there is no more "whenness" and passage of time. It is our experience of time as something passing that is illusory. Instead, time is experienced vertically rather than horizontally, which is how it really is.
@@woodandwandco ... In short, there is no absence of awareness, but just the absence of any experiences of a body, thoughts, sensations, objects, spacetime, identifications, etc, etc
@@wanderingthepeaks Not only is there no absence of awareness, but awareness is fully directed at itself and locked in a gaze upon itself. It is not a state that can be understood by looking at what is absent during the experience. There is more going on during the experience than during any other experience one can have of the objects and sensations you mentioned. It is simply that what one is experiencing is beyond brain activity.
You are right, that interpretation is for someone outside. For that person, time is already a construct, arising out of recognition. Time arises only when you have a sensory experience, project that to some "thing" existing, and create the idea that you have seen it before. Or see a change in some "thing". That's all it is - he does not subscribe to the delusion of an objectively flowing time.
He is talking about the state of Samadhi. All possible phenomena happens in One non-dual consciousness. It is wrong to say cessation of consciousness itself 🙏
Not so my friend. The metaphysics of Advita Vedanta and Buddhism are completely different - the traditions do not align & the fundamental teaching of anatta in Buddhism contradicts and is diametrically opposite of the brahma of Advita. Hence, you're projecting an Advita experience onto a Buddhist one and creating a category error. It is in the interests of preserving BOTH traditions that we dont try and make any claim that merges them into one - or to use one to try and vaildate the other. This is epistemological confusion.
The "sussation" is just like the "freedom" dissolve into freedom or the space dissolve into space. Spontaneous unmoving movement that is not in the past, present, or future. Simply, the maditator becomes the meditation. The bottom line is that none of these things do not exist on their own.
:33,, living on a boat,, I don’t think I could do 7 days, let alone one day. Every sound, every movement has a wake up moment . That’s why it’s good to keep your boat, barefoot friendly,peace
"Wander into the center of the circle of wonder, casually mount the sounds and straddle the colors while you transcend listening and surpass watching"..... ZEN
@@essentiafoundation Hehe... Cessation of metaconsciousness seems interesting. Cessation of *phenomenal consciousness* is a bit scary. The title made me :< a bit.
that's not right, that's more what the people of advaita vedanta describes, but this guy is describing a state similar to when you get anesthesia, in which there is no phenomenal consciousness either
Confirmed, what he describes Nirodha Samapatti, is the cessation of also phenomenal consciousness, whereas the state that you describe is more common in practitioners of non-dual awareness of advaita.
@@conexionneuronal8820 anesthesia affects memory, we have no reason to believe it turns off phenomenal consciousness. there's no empirical evidence for the claim that phenomenal consciousness can be turned off
1:26:34 The term used in Buddhism is "appearance" rather than "simulation" or "dream", with the sense that there is nothing more real than appearances. Interdependent appearances are the actual structure of reality, in this view. I'm not clear why he doesn't use this very well-known and famous term for what he is talking about.
An interesting conversation with two fine people. The speaker a PHD, scientist and apparently a physicalist takes a classical scientific point of view, ie “ the brain creates reality and not the other way around, that consciousness, which is metaphysical creates the physical. He seems to be a materialist shadowing pure idealism. While he observes metaphysics he labels its origins to be classical science. Matter over mind.
nearly every evening i experience desolving the ego and beeing pur concouisness - but this leads very fast in to deep sleep sometimes i wakeup inside the dream - and this is a different level - like a near death experience or a astral travel absolutly clear and real
It seems to me that epistemically speaking there is a complete underdetermination between either the lack of phenomenal consciousness and the lack of meta-conciousness/memory of phenomenal consciousness which are non fictionalist third person based interpretations of this phenomenon. And furthermore it is also underdetermined with two more fictionalist about third person person views like solipsism and the view that both one's own mind as other minds are constructions/fictions in which this phenomenon is interpreted as a sort of jump cut in a seemingly coherent storyline. Whatever one you choose depends on your ontological commitments.
Blackout is a state consciousness experienced when awareness is unable to experience itself or any object of perception. That can happen when the nervous is temporarily shutdown to unwind a huge block of fatigue that’s been stored somewhere in the physiology. It’s not a desirable state to seek or to be developed. It’s rock consciousness, a very primitive state of being.
The human nervous system is an extraordinary flexible instrument. It can shift into different styles of functioning ranging from rock consciousness, to the relative states of consciousness: waking, dreaming, and deep sleep, to pure consciousness, to simultaneously being able to maintain unbounded pure consciousness along with any of the relative levels previously named, to very refined or subtle perceptual experience of the different layers of manifest creation, to unity consciousness, and ultimately a level of integration that incorporates every layer of existence from gross sensory perception onward up to include celestial realms in the most panoramic 360 degrees perceptual field manner - where pure awareness is able to cognizes Itself as the totality of eternal Being. Obviously, we don’t want to hang out as a rock when there’s so, so much more enrichment to be attained.
I meditate, then dive into ice water to shock the autonomic pain and temperature sensation silent for up to 45 minutes. Praying before diving took me to the abyss for my shake. I was in trance walking in the snow for 45 minutes. Infarct with blood product in perhaps the correct spot. I would like to find the right neurologist. I'm fine, but the journey to the abyss , I describe as the boat ride, the Mandjet.
Awareness you can turn off , most people are not aware of awareness even in waking hours they are not aware and are controlled by their mind . that's why accidents happen and people get scammed. One of Buddhas last massage - go forward with full awareness.
So basically like dying in the physicalist framework then?. If the cessation of counsciousness or awareness itself is the deepest level, then consciousness cannot be the ground of being. Idealism is thus refuted.
Experiment to safely alter personal frequency/awareness via a most ancient sonic tuning fork: Sing *HU* daily. Search how to sing *HU* . The *HU* man package of perceptions provide educational, contrasting limitations to Soul (you) , a purported limitless being.
Great THX for sharing this interesting interview. The most sublime mind-state called nirodha (skr.) is a subtle trap for meditators in tibetan understanding, since it is an experience (still) within the six samsaric dimensions and comparable to "god-like" states of mind ; so in mahayana-understanding it`s more of a distraction to be reborn in the deva-realms, which are rather useless in relieving the infinite suffering of beings ..😀
Consciousness/Mind is One. Fragmentation of that which is One is schizophrenia. 1) Nothing exists but One Consciousness/Mind. One, a 'Singularity'! 2) We are all unique Perspectives (Souls) that/who, collectively, comprise Consciousness. This explains the use of the plural 'Us', Elohim, etc... 3) What we perceive, every moment, is Mind! What we are is 'awareness' and imagining an 'us' to 'control it is vain illusion of ego/thought!
You forgot the most important thing: energy. Cessation means conflict ceases energy dissipation stops. Going very deep, the remembrance of conflict and all psychological memory trapped and locked up as memory or matter must get unlocked and unpatterned; therefore, tremendous build up of energy!! Then there's an explosion like the big bang in big bang theory; there's creation--Jiddu Krishnamurti. AGI and ASI are incapable of a build up of tremendous energy, explosion, and CREATION. They always function in one pattern or another however advanced.
Initially does a very good description of constructs and constructions. But then talks about an external "reality" where different consciousnesses of individuals interact. How is that not an abstract construct? Hope he gets some clarification from the person who actually reached Nirodha Samapaththi.
The point is there’s nothing solid stationary It’s always in motion including the idea of who you are I think more of who you are is there in this non consciousness state without intent that’s me I’m there under that more me than any description or outward summary of defined traits
As wise and inspired the guy is, I think he is naive to think that AI will be used to the better benefit of all. He is aware of the danger and make it clear that he know it when he talked about the 18 year old driver metaphor. There is a real risk of catastrophic consequence to naively put all his talent and efforts working on developping AI that will, almost certainly, be exploited by the worst possible corporations whose intention is to use it only for their profit. Not all thing that can be done should be done. This hubris is dangerous and I don’t want to bet the future of humanity on it.
Unfortunately, in this day and age we have lost the capacity to orientate ourselves towards almost anything we have settled instead for the round Robyn continually ending infinite circle of postulation. This type of conversation is adopted by other people who listen to it as a leading end into inquiry or some other form of knowledge about states. Everybody is now talking like this and getting nowhere and agreeing with people in segueing other ideas which they haven't got a clue about into other ideas that they haven't got a clue about coming to the fantastic Planet of that's very interesting., categorisation.is not necessary., It is necessary to have a relatively clear idea of what something means when you use a word, as most words that are being used to fungible with things that have no basis in kind of experiential reality. Yet it seems to convey an understanding.
That is incorrect. No one can achieve total dissolution of self for hours or days. Total dissolution of self may be experienced that way but is actually only a duration of several seconds and can be achieved many times a minute. One day it will be proved, by peer review alone, that your practitioner's testimony of total dissolution of self for several days is actually a state of consciousness. Total dissolution of self is about that what precedes consciousness. You could distinguish the term, "cessation" from "total dissolution of self" by claiming that it is a state of consciousness and not that which precedes consciousness.
Its almost a default to refer to us as us....we immediately refer to as whendid we become conscious as if there is us ans then us becomes conscious as opposed to there is no actual us.....The default approach is where things go wrong......there is an immediate desire to put the we or us or the I am as first.....
To keep using a variety of terms such as 'we come back online' etc, is playing along with and encouraging us to accept being taken over by AI. We are not machines, or is that what you are suggesting - that life and its creator are mechanical? Something really does not feel right about this. There's too much effort in appearing clever...
Editorial clarification: in our interpretation, this study shows only a cessation of meta-consciousness (the explicit, metacognitive awareness of what is experienced), not of phenomenal consciousness (the raw experience itself). The two are distinct, as empirical research has shown (e.g. www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1364661302019496 ). Often, the lack of meta-consciousness leads the subject to concluding they had no experience, while in fact phenomenal consciousness was present, even during dreamless sleep (e.g., www.cell.com/trends/cognitive-sciences/abstract/S1364-6613(16)30152-8 ). It is impossible to reliably infer the absence of phenomenal consciousness based on subjective reports. This is the case even for general anaesthesia, (see, e.g., “Anesthesia
and Consciousness,” by John Kihlstrom and Randall Cork, published in The Blackwell Companion to Consciousness, 2007), this being the reason why one of the drugs in the anaesthesia cocktail is meant to prevent the subject from forming memories. All that can be ascertained with confidence is that a subject doesn't _remember_ having been conscious. Ascertaining that one was phenomenally unconscious is equivalent to stating, paradoxically, that one consciously remembers being unconscious. This fundamental ambiguity in subjective reporting is the reason why neuroscientist Nao Tsuchiya has proposed a no-report paradigm for consciousness research (e.g., www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1364661315002521 ). Clinical psychologists and many neuroscientists use the word 'consciousness' in the sense of meta-consciousness. The cessation of meta-consciousness and/or the absence of memories of consciousness don't contradict idealism at all. If phenomenal consciousness had ceased during meditation, meditators presumably wouldn't know how/when to come back, for, unlike the wearing off of drugs in anaesthesia, here the state is induced by the meditator themselves.
I don't think this is quite correct. For the mediator, it is cessation of both meta-consciousness and phenomenal consciousness. He said it's like being under anesthesia. No perception, not even a sense of time passing. Idealism of a sort is still possible here because, although the world disappears for the mediator, it does not disappear for others. The question of how the mediator knows when to come back might be answered in the fact that they set an intention. Intentions do not need to be continuously monitored in order to bear fruit.
@@markcounseling Anesthesia doesn't eliminate consciousness. It affects memory.
@@_WeDontKnow_ When you were last under anesthesia, what were you conscious of?
@@markcounseling Well I don't remember, but I'd argue that doesn't mean I wasn't conscious of anything. One of the ingredients of anesthesia is known to affect memory.
People also experience loss of memory of events leading up to the anesthesia, but they were conscious at the time.
I also don't remember being asleep last night, but I was conscious the entire time (because I would've woke up if a loud noise happened)
@@_WeDontKnow_ You would not wake up no matter what happens if you're properly anesthetized. That indeed is the point of it.
Meta-consciousness typically means thinking about or being aware of thought, the self, or awareness itself. It's self-reflective and has content.
Phenomenal consciousness typically means experience of the sense fields.
Both of these are gone in this state of cessation.
I have a feeling, though I'm not sure it's correct, that there is some intent here to save Idealism at the expense of what the interviewee actually said.
How are people understanding that phenomenal consciousness remained during cessation? In what way? What phenomena?
It's certainly possible that I'm just missing something here; maybe you can help, thanks for trying.
This is the third time I’ve watched this video. Thank you so much. Learning always! Great interview!!!!
difficult to put into words but beautifully done. congratulations to our younger generation commng to grips with the real real
It's so impressive how Ruben can respond to the most difficult and fundamental questions. Thank you both for the interview! Thank you Essentia for providing this brainfood to a wide audience. Also want to mention the extraordinary audio quality which comfortably allows listening for 2+ hours.
Being a Drukpa monk i was familiar with thukdam, but being a scientist i thought it was crazy until i read the physician reports from the death of the 16th Karmapa who died in Zion, Illinois, and realized it was all true! Had not heard of neruda samapati, not being extremely familiar with Theraveda, so i am SO glad you did this!! Incredible!!
Nirodha FYI 😊
@@adityaprasad465 Thank you!
Is this similar to Samadhi state's?
This discussion feels sooo smoooth to me. I appreciate perceived synergy between the two of you. Many insights well articulated and accurate.
Models presented are already integrated in me. But it's cutting edge of scientifi understanding. I think Ruben would like The Philosophy of Difference I am studying now.
I don't have anything against Bernardo's view but some points presented here in contrast resonate with me more.
Thank you for participating in my reality. ☺🙏🏻❤
Outstanding exchange. The leaves are changing in Maryland, i went on a very long walk today, its a beautiful day out again. This exchange synced beautifully with my walk today. Thank you both ☀️🍂❤️✌️
So much knowledge its crazy. And so down to earth
i am glad this knowledge choose to bestowe itself upon me
This is very informative. I appreciate your insight and presentation.
One of the best guests Essentia has had to date! Mind your own business, people. Literally!
I'm doing a PhD in embodied cognition - which combines Buddhism, Western phenomenonology, biology & Neuro-science - so I found this discussion absolutely fascinating. There is so much I can draw on here for my own thesis - I'll have to listen again!
Thanks Essentia Foundation & Rubin!
Would you mind sharing which university offers this program
@@saylidapse1812I'm at University of New England (Australia) in the philosophy school.
Monash in Melbourne have a Centre for Contemplative & Consciousness Studies - which is where the speaker in this interview teaches. Both are good places for post-grad philosophy of mind. Monash is good for Neuro-science. One of my colleagues at Monash did electrical engineering for undergrad & is doing PhD on philosophy of mind. So various ways in. Good luck!
I have had what is termed "out of body experiences" , and my awareness was definitely not inside my body. It became "non-local" so to speak and I was able to "fly" and travel to a specific place and watch what was happening.
Nothing is localized. The whole thing is a conspiracy of elements and non elements.
Me too. Being going "out of body" since I was a small child, in total awareness, totally conscious. It's very natural and everybody's focus of awareness does this every night when we sleep, it's down to whether you remember doing it once you're back in body. That's the catch.
@@deckofcards87if this were true you could enter people’s houses and see secrets. If this were true you could enter boardroom conversations and buy stocks based on it and get very wealthy
@@deckofcards87 From my extremely limited and semi-conscious experience, I've come to realize whenever I'm in this state, the world seems to directly revolve or change according to my intentions.
As opposed to the physical plane where I have to interact with the world to inspire change....it's hard to accurately describe.
In other words, the physical plane is a world of action, whereas the astral is a plane of thought/intention. Both are quite similar, but the physical is evidently more dense and requires more "hands on" action to do anything.
Ugh...
This is very interesting but be cautious in inferring that an experience of mind says something profound about the metaphysics (the study of the structure and nature of reality - especially beyond empirical observations) & ontology (the nature of being) of reality.
That doesn't mean there isn't anything vauleable to take from the experience but rather, to keep the humility that there may be a lot more knowledge about the nature of our experience. In other words, don't stop and raise your flag at what might be a step, not an end. 😊
First, this is a great channel! Second, I love Battlestar Galactica and the psychology behind it. It seems almost as if the sci-fi in that series has manifested our real science AI/AGI fact future. Or At least within a modest relative accuracy. The question of are we the chicken or egg as far as alien intelligence or just ancient intelligence, I think this is still within the boundaries of question
Reading the paper right now, so pleased to see that there is such a lot of good quality research going on into the practice and effects of meditation, looking forward to reading more.
"Groundlessness of the mind" could be represented by the idea that 'ground' is only meaningful in a system that is pervaded by gravity. With no gravity, ground is just another surface and not the one to which we are always pulled or pushed. Gravity can be likened to the investment of one's experience in one's idea of self; when that investment is beyond a certain point, we can no longer tell the difference between what is happening and what we are - which is how most of us live. Everything is happening to us and we draw all phenomena towards ourselves, like gravity. Meditation progressively dissolves that force and opens to freedom.
Around 1:25 you are speaking of an ultimate changing reality... I would argue however, that constant change implies a non-changing background; without it, change cannot be detected. This is why concepts like Nirguna Brahman and Maya (or Saguna Brahman) in Hinduism, and 'Buddha Nature' in Buddhism, arise. Thus, an unchanging 'reality' must exist that, through reflection (or 'Maya'), manifests as a co-dependent 'changing reality.' Ultimately, these two aspects are non-dual." The 'changing reality' being an 'appearance' within the 'non-changing' reality. I love this dialogue, btw!!! Brilliant, and insightful!
Brilliant, give the universal one by walter russell a listen..its on you tube
Steve you're my new best friend this is just what I say to Buddhists going on about impermanence - knowledge of change assumes an unchanging measuring stick. Which makes claims of total impermanence of reality Impossible to prove in a logical kind of sense.
Spot on. The Two Truths.
@@peterjones6507 knowledge of change implies memory and time. Total impermanence implies no permanent memory. No permanent memory implies no reliable way to demonstrate impermanence. It self-cancels. Buddhists usually don't get this because they just quote doctrine.
@@StringVest I'm not very surprised they don't get it. I don't either. .
52: 20 Interdependence, compassion,
action ❤
What he is referring to is what Ramana Maharshi would call Mona Laya, temporary (Laya) cessation of mind (Mona) waves vs Mona Nasa, permanent (Nasa) destruction of mind waves. Regardless of how long someone's is in Mona Laya the mind will pick up right where it left off before entering the state, hence no change. Whereas Mona Nasa leads to permanent change and eventually Self-realization.
❤
Ramana compared it with anestesia where u count 1-2-3-4 till you become unconciousnes and when u come out of that you count 5-6-7-
I hope The Essential Foundation will consider creating some podcasts out of these great talks. Some of us have commutes and/or jobs where this would be perfect listening!
@kafkaten I have a workaround for that. Copy the video link (the "Share" button). Then start the program "4K Video Downloader" (this is a free open source software). Click on the button "Paste link". When you do that, the program takes you to the options: download audio or download video. You choose between the two and it does the downloading to your computer.
NOTE: I have noticed that for some reason, these days there's a very long pause between clicking the "Paste link" button and when the download options appear. It could take up to four or five minutes.
Hope this helps.
We're working on it and are planning to releaser all major interviews as podcasts this year!
Or...just turn you phone around/hang a hanky over it/turn your screen darker/practice focus and attention and just don't look, and just listen.😊
I can find the skip[the annoying ads]-button while driving and not looking at the screen, and i have average sensory abilities.
It takes only a short time to learn..
Awesome, didn't know Natalia was a national Taekwondo champion....nice!! Great chat keep them coming!
That was nice flavour in discussion. 🦸♀️
To understand meditation, one must read the source texts. Meditation is a general and confusing term. It does not point to a specific practice. There is no "fundamental way" to meditate. Meditation is a process requiring multiple steps, and in its most basic formulation, those steps are 8.
1. Yama (abstinences)
By training directing the will, one gains the ability to gain distance from compulsion and to observe it. This is the first step. Without creating this distance, there can be no meditation.
2. Niyama (observances)
By following the guidelines of cleanliness, contentment, discipline, study of the self, and surrendering to the highest state of being, one develops the positive patterns of behavior required for meditation.
3. Asana (posture)
By holding the physical body in specific postures, one creates a conducive atmosphere within the body for stillness, calmness, and balance of physical wellbeing. Without practicing Asana, there can be no meditation.
4. Pranayama (breathing technique)
Breathing is work upon the physical body. Essentially, the breath occurs in patterns. These patterns must be observed. The science of Pranayama is for the purpose of developing the sense for the most intimate physical activities and how they affect the body and mind. Without developing a deep intimacy with our physiological processes, there can be no distance from the body and mind, hence no meditation.
5. Pratyahara (withdrawal of sense perceptions)
When you withdraw your sense perception after completing the above steps, all senses begin to observe the inner processes: The visual field behind the eyelids, the auditory field within the brain, the sense of touch in relation to the inner organs, the sense of smell of the breath through breathing through the nose, and the sense of taste of the palate within the mouth. Without directing the senses inwards and observing the inner processes of body and mind, there can be no meditation.
6. Dharana (one-pointed concentration)
First, focus must be on an object. Any object. This focus must be honed. The flame of a candle is recommended, but a doorknob will do just as well. Training the faculty of concentration on an external object can lead to a state of concentration with eyes closed that is similar to looking at an external object, except within the mind, the object can be seen from all perspectives at once. This is the goal of one-pointed concentration. Concentration means both focus and intensification of density at once. The process could be analogized to trying to create a blackhole within the mind. What the blackhole does in the universe is to fold spacetime upon itself. The same is the prerequisite to meditation.
7. Dhyana (meditation)
It is only after all the above processes have been honed that meditation begins. Dhyana is the cessation of mind. It is only after mind has been observed sufficiently that mind and its processes can be selectively turned on and off as needed. In order to reach this state, while remaining conscious of one's inner experience, one must follow the above steps. Skipping steps will lead to slipping and falling back in terms of progress. This is why most human beings cannot meditate. Dhyana is a state in which waking, dreaming, and deep sleep, are observed simultaneously and continuously. To know if one is in meditation, one can observe one's sleep. Continuous lucid dreamless sleep is an indicator of ongoing meditation. Meditation is not an activity. It is a state of being. Meditation is the natural state. If we were all in this state, confusion and conflict would be impossible.
8. Samadhi (absorption)
Samadhi is the natural consequence of meditativeness. Once the identity is no longer with body and mind, the identity suddenly becomes boundless, taking on its natural qualities. In this state, the external observer looking at the body of the individual in Samadhi will experience them to be in a state of cessation. In reality, the awareness is completely directed at itself in this state. It is a state of recursive awareness of awareness. Once awareness is recursive as such, something beyond body and mind emerges into experience. The person ceases to exist. The persona ceases to exist. The identity as such ceases to be attached to any manifestation. The experience of body and mind cease. In their place is the experience of bliss, or the baseline state. It is from this natural state that the wisest of human beings across the ages have expressed that the Self is the same in All. This is a clear indication of transcending the first (I-me), second (I-thou), and third (I-them) person perspectives, opening up the fourth person (I-I) perspective, or Turiya. It is from the state of Turiya that one dissolves into all, where waking, dreaming, and deep sleep are one and the same in one's experience. The I-me relation is that of Self to Ego. The I-thou and I-them relations are those of Self with perceived other. The I-I relation is that of Self with Self alone. That Self is the same in All, and that Self is the true Self. It is only through following the above-mentioned practices that this experience may become a reality for all.
Thank you, this is very helpful!
Thank you for speaking real truth for Vedanta and Yoga
Damn yo! Thanks for that dump!
I would save this video anyways, but I'll definitely save it, along with some screen shots as an easy quick reference to help me along. TY, TY, TY and peace all!
@@wttafriends You are most welcome. I hope the application of this information will lead you to deeper states of wellbeing 🙏
@@rasha9546 Namaskaram 🙏
Thanks you both for this wonderful sharing 🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾
Outstanding content.
Ruben needs to get on _New Thinking Allowed_ with Mishlove.
Yes, he does!
Yes!❤
Terminology is essential. The best description of what is going on during described cessation is given by Rupert Spira. It is cessation of mind, not consciousness. Mind being the thought and perception, inner and outer. Consciousness does not cease. If it did, what or who would be able to refer to described insight of Freedom?
If you are still stuck on "you" what freedom do you expect?
@@manjukasoysa3901 The one outside spacetime. ‘When’ there is no thought and no perception there is no ‘you’, no time, no space constructed. There is just being
Thank you sir!
@@grzegorz4636 Cessation of the mind activity , while maintaining awareness doesn't stop the experience of time.
In the particular case discussed , there's no experience of time during cessation . Rupert Spira seems to be referring to the earlier scenario , unless he can also go in to nirodha samapatti for seven days.
No that’s not true. What you are describing is a different state. Cessation really is the cessation of consciousness. He said it is a blip with no time passing. What is there to be conscious of if there is no time?
Wow loved this what a surprise! Great work 😊
I believe the meditator subject he’s referring to is Delson Armstrong. I think he would be a fascinating interview.
Thank you!
Very interesting. I'm curious what happens in the mind during trance or disassociation. Thank you for this!
As you talk about the witnessing self
I visualise a part of me that is standing separate
Which makes me think of splitting
My observer the witness has become a scientist attempting objectivity (which it can’t really have cos it’s connected to my experiencing self (my automatic) a more aware sensory perceiver that is not interested in what I think It’s busy breathing and healing and regulating a billion aspects of information in it’s field
If I stop trying to observe and just be in it
If I sort of dewitness or witness only a tiny bit my body and particularly my breathing seems to break out like I’ve been running and then I take deeper breaths which I can’t naturally do in my ordinary waking consciousness
The space between feels like a relief to stop watching surgically taking me apart and I find inner pain or blocks relieved by automatic breathing and melting into a quieter state
So interesting 🙏🏻 Thank you
Very interesting video and guest! Really enjoyed his insights. I have a little push back with his metaphysics ideas though:
It seems to me he is model of consciousness is more akin to Rovelli’s relational quantum mechanics, in which is relations all the way down. We are like whirlpools in the ocean where then the ocean is a whirlpool in a bigger ocean and it goes indefinitely. There are obvious a lot of problems with these ideas and I didn’t see him trying to address it. Everything seems to fit nicely as he said in a sort of eternal loop in which the input is its output, but then if there are no “ground-base” is it relating to what? To itself? Isn't that a cheap way of having the cake and eat it?
Either way, enjoyed very much the video and everything else he was talking, great job for both of them, interesting material and minds!
I actually like the part of relations all the way down, there is a lot of people who is critisizing substance ontology, like James Filler, I think physics is moving little by little to relations as the ground of being
Superb communication!! ❤
I think of reality as one of those pieces of mosaic artwork made up of individual images, but together, they make a completely different picture. Each individual image is a reality, and each reality creates the whole of the reality we experience.
From my understanding, your guest is talking about a hibernation like state, which animals like bears do it every year. I may simplifying but it seem to me very similar.
That's an interesting parallel you're drawing. My impulse is to think/say that bears don't consciously, intentionally do this, but then again, maybe there is a common thing going on. Maybe it's all triggered and driven through instincts, but I don't think we're yet capable of understanding just what animals or plants, etc are aware of, or what they do with conscious intent. I think humans are still very full and fool of themselves.
Instinct we call intuition, has been my only companion...
It is interesting thinking about how the Great Indian Sage Shankara once went in to state similar to what is being talked about(but mistakenly understood as deep Samadhi state). His disciples thinking he is dead burnt his body. This resulted in his conciousness taking refuge on a bird's soul temporarily, till it could find a suitable human host(a young man that had died). So, seems like Cessation is different, in which it is similar to literal death(or more of an hibernation?),and can be somehow switched back later. So, it lacks time and space. Brought back memories of Itzhak Bentov's theories on conciousness. The question is what happened to Conciousness during that time?. The discussion of AI evolving is a breath of fresh air, than the typical doom and gloom projections promoted everyday. Very interesting and deeply intriguing and engaging discussion indeed.❤️👍
Sri bhagavan ramana maharishy replied, there is no conciousness which is a construct of the mind and that has solved into the SELF , its is beeing / God / you are all , (no more reincarnation.)
Given that there are even processes of inorganic self-organisation I have no difficulty in conceiving that AI can and will become conscious. It seems to me it too is subject to the interdependence that Ruben Laukkonen speaks of. Great interview! We are at a very exciting juncture in human evolution.
Yeah, look into Joscha Bach. He believes the same
I feel trapped by solipsistic thoughts after exploring analytical idealism and non-duality . It’s challenging to reconcile profound insights, like those from Ramana, with everyday life. While I crave truth, I also want to maintain my mental well-being. I enjoy the journey of learning, but the implications of these truths can be overwhelming. Is there anyone else who can relate to this?
I really encourage you to find a practice tradition you feel comfortable in. It keeps us stable, real, and honest.
@@jessiemolhoek9050 I definitely relate to these struggles in the past! On one level you are as unreal as others. 'You' are just a character narrative that appropriates certain constructed experiences of a body-mind, on that level when experiences becomes mine vs others or this experience opposed to that experience that I cannot access you simply don't know if others are conscious. To say that others are conscious is not more inferential/an extra assumption as much as saying that they aren't conscious. That's why endorsing solipsism is stupid. You simply don't know and will never know because if you did know there would be no seperation to say that others are there to be or not be conscious. It also doesn't matter for your everyday life, even if solipsism would be true you would still love others as much, have the same emotional responses etc. Just make sure to not bypass your conventional life and preferences and take care of yourself.
@@jessiemolhoek9050 On one level you are as unreal as others. 'You' are just a character narrative that appropriates certain constructed experiences of a body-mind, on that level when experiences becomes mine vs others or this experience opposed to that experience that I cannot access you simply don't know if others are conscious. To say that others are conscious is not more inferential/an extra assumption as much as saying that they aren't conscious. That's why endorsing solipsism is stupid. You simply don't know and will never know because if you did know there would be no seperation to say that others are there to be or not be conscious, unless you believe in mind reading. It also doesn't matter for your everyday life, even if solipsism would be true you would still love others as much, have the same emotional responses etc. Just make sure to not bypass your conventional life and preferences and take care of yourself.
I've had what I believe to be cessations during meditation as well. It's complete lights out, there was really no control and I couldn't willfully bring it about or control the state. Just complete blank, disappearance of all phenomena. Like being knocked out. I could only tell it happened because my body position had changed
Past and future are phenomena experienced in the present moment, i can live with that.
I got into non-materialism in 1967 when I took LSD for the first-time aa a radical materialist atheist. Academically and professionally I have been chemist, biochemist, neurochemist, software engineer (including AI) and a writer. I meditate and use self hypnosis as well as using psychedelics. I agree that most life is meditation.
My question how about peak experience. Both in writing software and fiction there are times when the ego disapears and the Daemon takes over. The bestcwork happens and I let the unuverse be and just be thec dspassionate observer. I imagine that is an example of meditation too.
Thanks. I never thought of it in that way.
Mm Read some other comments and
I think he’s telling of a stage where the witness doesn’t try to abstract define or real-lize what’s happening but just observes without intent And not observation in visual terms but just simply the tiny ripple of acknowledgment that something is occurring within the body To allow it to rejig reregulate without the mind creating contraction and control and limiting semantics about what may be ‘really’ happening
After alll the body and minds’ sentient existence is bigger than words and abstractions It’s the whole and not the abstraction it’s capable of?
Excellent video
It is a beautiful statement at 1:27:23 that "we need a better word than simulation" We do need it. That "simulation" staff is a trend now, most probably inspired by the current rise of computer technologies. However, it seems to be a dangerous thing for our minds, diving into superficial fantasies about something of what we experience being "unreal" or "not that real".
Lucid and profound
When i meditated regularly i was eventually, after about 2 years, able to reach a sort of consciousness null-state. Staying in this state was extremely difficult for me, though, because it is terrifying for the ego. Most of the time i would spring out of it instantly. After a while i could let go for a few seconds at a time. I think the longest i was ever able to handle was about 30 seconds (its hard to gauge time in that state). The idea that people can go days like this is fascinating to me. I heard one practitioner say it took them 10 years of extended daily practice to reach an hour.
You’re implying you quit?
How do you know you weren't conscious if you weren't conscious?
LAYERS / LEVELS OF SELF: A MODEL | ~15:00 to 20:00
...
Narrative Self
Embodied Self
Witnessing Self
Pure Awareness, Presence, Being
Beyond Self:
Cesation of Consciousness
Truely fascinating stuff. Reminds me of the Heart Sutra we chant every day at the Zen monastery:
"So in emptiness there is no form;
no sensation, conception, discrimination, awareness;
no eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind;
no color, sound, smell, taste, touch, phenomena;
no realm of sight, no realm of consciousness;
no ignorance and no end to ignorance,
no old age and death and no end to old age and death,
no suffering, no cause of suffering,
no extinguishing, no path, no wisdom, and no gain.
No gain and thus the bodhisattva lives Prajna Paramita,"
Holy Fuck Ruben, as someone studying all this stuff, astavakra Gita, hinduism, all the modern stuff, jungian therapy aaaaaand so forth I couldn't name it all, I feel your struggle to explain it but you are quite fascinatingly clear with all you say and I love even tho how direct it is it's still not explicit but implicit most of the time so it doesn't cause any defensive position on the opposing party.
GREAT WORK!!!!
Is the a link to the preliminary paper?
1:34:00 “I’ve managed to say something without the language of time.” What does change mean without time? I’m going to look through this inference theory paper but I get skeptical when I see Bayesian models and what not in a theory of consciousness. Appealing to math doesn’t solve the hard problem imo.
For people that may feel threatened, scared or having an existential crisis because of the implications of this states. I've been in you place and I know how you feel, but if you let it be, if you let it go, you'll see that you fears are unjustified and they'll dissappear. I have something to say.
This doesn't capture my full view, but I tend to visualize consciousness as if somewhat was building over itself upon layers over layers of abstraction, each layer being "isolated" in a certain way (not truly isolated but more like a wave).
So in that sense you can have also multiple branches of development upon those layers, and multiple "beings".
The universe is singular, but "consciousness" is not singular, it is distributed. So you can infer some kind of ground in that "distributed groundlessness", but that ground is not a solid ground where you could rest, because the "true ground" is the totality of existence, the totality of the dynamics, the *whole.*
There's no real "stillness", true stillness is impossible, but there can still seem to be "stillness" from particular points of view. So this "cessation" is not really a cessation of consciousness (since consciousness is not a thing neither a state), it's just the cessation of a particular process/state as it gets completely deconstructed. Reality keeps unfolding and "consciousness" keeps going on in the world, and nothing gets lost! (not forever at least because there's an impetus -love- within the universe that wants to bind and integrate everything as much as possible)
There is an awful existential terror when you hear about this states without having the real insight. That fear kicks in because of identification, you still try to grasp onto something and call it "consciousness", you're still looking for some ground where "you" can rest. Let it go.
Brain creates a model of reality - that's a bold statement!
Not really. It’s a commonly held belief by scientists.
@@GirlsDoPhilosophy that's why I said it's bold to make such statements without any supporting data
well the brain is pretty good at covering information of the senses. For example - there is a small blind spot that both of our eyes cannot see and the brain is pretty good at hiding it. Everything we know is the model of reality created by our brain and not the "real" reality.
@alupade2981 wow you deserve a Nobel prize for this discovery, but I doubt you made any studies which show that brain creates a model of reality
@@ThoArtOne By brain I mean mind. We are the prisoners of our own mind. Its just observation. Just ask what is the proof of the world. Its the senses.There is massive limitations with the information coming from the senses. On top of that out brain literally makes things up or fills up when there is lack of information.
Can we use "prayer" or affirmations (or pick a cultural equivalent) to affect the points of the "I AM"'s traversal through the infinite states of possibility to make "miracles" happen in our 5 sense world?
Wonderful stuff with many nuggets...I think the threshold is likely to be at the point (probably already passed in the MIC) when machine intelligence can program itself without human consent, as it will inevitably, having a higher IQ than humans, find a way to circumvent such controls....
Brilliant
This is very interesting. I have been fortunate enough to have a spiritual awaking. I am still new to this and figuring out stuff. Can not imagine sitting for seven days. I would think the human body would become very stiff almost painful. Not to mention the lack of water that the body needs to function ?
Dry fasting. Look it up. Plus, if you don't move, how much of anything does your body need to have and do?
Well, if the subjective 'interval' between one state of awareness and the next is instantaneous, as there would be zero experience of any passage of time, how can it be said that there was a cessation of awareness? How long is instantaneous? When exactly did awareness cease, and then return? How does 'when' even apply, in the absence of any experience of time?
Awareness does not cease. It is instead directed at itself by rotating it 180 degrees. Recursive awareness of awareness is the basest and highest state of consciousness. It is placing the mirror up against the mirror, thereby allowing the reflections to multiply infinitely. It is much like a total solar eclipse. You need only observe it once to know that the moon and the sun reflect one another in a profound way, that when the moon reflects the light of the sun completely, within a moment, a total darkness bathes the external environment, and all concentration of light is one-pointed in the jewel on the periphery of the moon and sun intersection.
There are no intervals in awareness. Awareness is pervasive and beyond time. There are intervals in the breath. There is the in breath and out breath. If you look at it in this way, you will see no cessation of breath. However, when breathing in reality, there is the in-breath, retention, out-breath, and extension. It is in the states of retention and extension that there is cessation of mind, not awareness. In this sense, spacetime, which is a construct of mind, folds upon itself, thereby making the temporal dimension a spatial one experientially. When time is experienced as a spatial dimension, there is no experience of intervals.
Awareness never ceases. Awareness pervades everything. We have lost our identification with awareness because we have not observed it. Instead, we are observing the floating thoughts, emotions, and physical states that appear before our eyes like dreams. Cessation of consciousness is not possible. This is a conscious universe. The universe is awareness of awareness. Once this is experienced, there is no more distinction between the self and the universe, there is no more "whenness" and passage of time. It is our experience of time as something passing that is illusory. Instead, time is experienced vertically rather than horizontally, which is how it really is.
@@woodandwandco ... In short, there is no absence of awareness, but just the absence of any experiences of a body, thoughts, sensations, objects, spacetime, identifications, etc, etc
@@wanderingthepeaks Not only is there no absence of awareness, but awareness is fully directed at itself and locked in a gaze upon itself. It is not a state that can be understood by looking at what is absent during the experience. There is more going on during the experience than during any other experience one can have of the objects and sensations you mentioned. It is simply that what one is experiencing is beyond brain activity.
You are right, that interpretation is for someone outside. For that person, time is already a construct, arising out of recognition. Time arises only when you have a sensory experience, project that to some "thing" existing, and create the idea that you have seen it before. Or see a change in some "thing". That's all it is - he does not subscribe to the delusion of an objectively flowing time.
He is talking about the state of Samadhi. All possible phenomena happens in One non-dual consciousness. It is wrong to say cessation of consciousness itself 🙏
Not so my friend. The metaphysics of Advita Vedanta and Buddhism are completely different - the traditions do not align & the fundamental teaching of anatta in Buddhism contradicts and is diametrically opposite of the brahma of Advita. Hence, you're projecting an Advita experience onto a Buddhist one and creating a category error.
It is in the interests of preserving BOTH traditions that we dont try and make any claim that merges them into one - or to use one to try and vaildate the other. This is epistemological confusion.
What an interesting video. I wonder if your method of inquiry could provide some evidence for or against the ORCH OR theory of consciousness?
Think less simulation and more interface. Spacetime is our user interface which we use to navigate and survive a far more complex fundamental reality.
Heinz von Foerster could have been a very interesting participant of your conversation, also Donald Hoffman with his Theory of Conscious Agents.
The "sussation" is just like the "freedom" dissolve into freedom or the space dissolve into space. Spontaneous unmoving movement that is not in the past, present, or future. Simply, the maditator becomes the meditation. The bottom line is that none of these things do not exist on their own.
Exactly how would someone reach this state?
Perhaps we could say that perceptual time is an integrated representation of causality applied to our being.
:33,, living on a boat,, I don’t think I could do 7 days, let alone one day. Every sound, every movement has a wake up moment . That’s why it’s good to keep your boat, barefoot friendly,peace
"Wander into the center of the circle of wonder, casually mount the sounds and straddle the colors while you transcend listening and surpass watching"..... ZEN
The container 🫙 called consciousness is contained within which container ?
It seems like this is talking about cessation of metaconsciousness rather than phenomenal consciousness.
That is correct.
@@essentiafoundation Hehe... Cessation of metaconsciousness seems interesting. Cessation of *phenomenal consciousness* is a bit scary. The title made me :< a bit.
that's not right, that's more what the people of advaita vedanta describes, but this guy is describing a state similar to when you get anesthesia, in which there is no phenomenal consciousness either
Confirmed, what he describes Nirodha Samapatti, is the cessation of also phenomenal consciousness, whereas the state that you describe is more common in practitioners of non-dual awareness of advaita.
@@conexionneuronal8820 anesthesia affects memory, we have no reason to believe it turns off phenomenal consciousness. there's no empirical evidence for the claim that phenomenal consciousness can be turned off
1:26:34 The term used in Buddhism is "appearance" rather than "simulation" or "dream", with the sense that there is nothing more real than appearances. Interdependent appearances are the actual structure of reality, in this view. I'm not clear why he doesn't use this very well-known and famous term for what he is talking about.
An interesting conversation with two fine people. The speaker a PHD, scientist and apparently a physicalist takes a classical scientific point of view, ie “ the brain creates reality and not the other way around, that consciousness, which is metaphysical creates the physical. He seems to be a materialist shadowing pure idealism. While he observes metaphysics he labels its origins to be classical science. Matter over mind.
nearly every evening i experience desolving the ego and beeing pur concouisness - but this leads very fast in to deep sleep
sometimes i wakeup inside the dream - and this is a different level - like a near death experience or a astral travel absolutly clear and real
It seems to me that epistemically speaking there is a complete underdetermination between either the lack of phenomenal consciousness and the lack of meta-conciousness/memory of phenomenal consciousness which are non fictionalist third person based interpretations of this phenomenon. And furthermore it is also underdetermined with two more fictionalist about third person person views like solipsism and the view that both one's own mind as other minds are constructions/fictions in which this phenomenon is interpreted as a sort of jump cut in a seemingly coherent storyline. Whatever one you choose depends on your ontological commitments.
I think its misleading to show stock video of Mingyur Rinpoche in Richard Davidson's study if Rinpoche is not the test subject for Laukkonen's study.
Blackout is a state consciousness experienced when awareness is unable to experience itself or any object of perception. That can happen when the nervous is temporarily shutdown to unwind a huge block of fatigue that’s been stored somewhere in the physiology. It’s not a desirable state to seek or to be developed. It’s rock consciousness, a very primitive state of being.
The human nervous system is an extraordinary flexible instrument. It can shift into different styles of functioning ranging from rock consciousness, to the relative states of consciousness: waking, dreaming, and deep sleep, to pure consciousness, to simultaneously being able to maintain unbounded pure consciousness along with any of the relative levels previously named, to very refined or subtle perceptual experience of the different layers of manifest creation, to unity consciousness, and ultimately a level of integration that incorporates every layer of existence from gross sensory perception onward up to include celestial realms in the most panoramic 360 degrees perceptual field manner - where pure awareness is able to cognizes Itself as the totality of eternal Being. Obviously, we don’t want to hang out as a rock when there’s so, so much more enrichment to be attained.
The "groundlessness of mind" must be fundamental, else "reboot" would be impossible, correct?
Beyond the intellect
49:00 🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯🔥
I meditate, then dive into ice water to shock the autonomic pain and temperature sensation silent for up to 45 minutes.
Praying before diving took me to the abyss for my shake. I was in trance walking in the snow for 45 minutes. Infarct with blood product in perhaps the correct spot. I would like to find the right neurologist.
I'm fine, but the journey to the abyss , I describe as the boat ride, the Mandjet.
According to Kabbalists we separated in order to create. Like we said- “ I want to create” so we separated from the all.
Awareness you can turn off , most people are not aware of awareness even in waking hours they are not aware and are controlled by their mind . that's why accidents happen and people get scammed. One of Buddhas last massage - go forward with full awareness.
So basically like dying in the physicalist framework then?. If the cessation of counsciousness or awareness itself is the deepest level, then consciousness cannot be the ground of being. Idealism is thus refuted.
Kiva nähdä Suomalainen tällä kanavalla
Our past is the present moment unfolding, therefore our future is always the present now built upon memories from our past.
Experiment to safely alter personal frequency/awareness via a most ancient sonic tuning fork: Sing *HU* daily. Search how to sing *HU* . The *HU* man package of perceptions provide educational, contrasting limitations to Soul (you) , a purported limitless being.
Great THX for sharing this interesting interview. The most sublime mind-state called nirodha (skr.) is a subtle trap for meditators in tibetan understanding, since it is an experience (still) within the six samsaric dimensions and comparable to "god-like" states of mind ; so in mahayana-understanding it`s more of a distraction to be reborn in the deva-realms, which are rather useless in relieving the infinite suffering of beings ..😀
Consciousness/Mind is One.
Fragmentation of that which is One is schizophrenia.
1) Nothing exists but One Consciousness/Mind. One, a 'Singularity'!
2) We are all unique Perspectives (Souls) that/who, collectively, comprise Consciousness. This explains the use of the plural 'Us', Elohim, etc...
3) What we perceive, every moment, is Mind!
What we are is 'awareness' and imagining an 'us' to 'control it is vain illusion of ego/thought!
You forgot the most important thing: energy. Cessation means conflict ceases energy dissipation stops. Going very deep, the remembrance of conflict and all psychological memory trapped and locked up as memory or matter must get unlocked and unpatterned; therefore, tremendous build up of energy!!
Then there's an explosion like the big bang in big bang theory; there's creation--Jiddu Krishnamurti.
AGI and ASI are incapable of a build up of tremendous energy, explosion, and CREATION. They always function in one pattern or another however advanced.
Meditation means TAKE NO THOUGHT
Initially does a very good description of constructs and constructions. But then talks about an external "reality" where different consciousnesses of individuals interact. How is that not an abstract construct? Hope he gets some clarification from the person who actually reached Nirodha Samapaththi.
Cool
The point is there’s nothing solid stationary It’s always in motion including the idea of who you are
I think more of who you are is there in this non consciousness state without intent that’s me I’m there under that more me than any description or outward summary of defined traits
Een gesprek met iemand is al meditatie!
As wise and inspired the guy is, I think he is naive to think that AI will be used to the better benefit of all. He is aware of the danger and make it clear that he know it when he talked about the 18 year old driver metaphor. There is a real risk of catastrophic consequence to naively put all his talent and efforts working on developping AI that will, almost certainly, be exploited by the worst possible corporations whose intention is to use it only for their profit. Not all thing that can be done should be done. This hubris is dangerous and I don’t want to bet the future of humanity on it.
Unfortunately, in this day and age we have lost the capacity to orientate ourselves towards almost anything we have settled instead for the round Robyn continually ending infinite circle of postulation. This type of conversation is adopted by other people who listen to it as a leading end into inquiry or some other form of knowledge about states. Everybody is now talking like this and getting nowhere and agreeing with people in segueing other ideas which they haven't got a clue about into other ideas that they haven't got a clue about coming to the fantastic Planet of that's very interesting., categorisation.is not necessary., It is necessary to have a relatively clear idea of what something means when you use a word, as most words that are being used to fungible with things that have no basis in kind of experiential reality. Yet it seems to convey an understanding.
A knowing without knowing . Everything and nothing at the same time …,
That is incorrect. No one can achieve total dissolution of self for hours or days. Total dissolution of self may be experienced that way but is actually only a duration of several seconds and can be achieved many times a minute. One day it will be proved, by peer review alone, that your practitioner's testimony of total dissolution of self for several days is actually a state of consciousness. Total dissolution of self is about that what precedes consciousness. You could distinguish the term, "cessation" from "total dissolution of self" by claiming that it is a state of consciousness and not that which precedes consciousness.
🥳😍
Beautiful, I have reached those levels on psilocybin.
50:50. God,,, in the Bible it’s told that Jesus said that the kingdom of god and heaven is within and Neville Goddard said that god is imagination
Its almost a default to refer to us as us....we immediately refer to as whendid we become conscious as if there is us ans then us becomes conscious as opposed to there is no actual us.....The default approach is where things go wrong......there is an immediate desire to put the we or us or the I am as first.....
To keep using a variety of terms such as 'we come back online' etc, is playing along with and encouraging us to accept being taken over by AI. We are not machines, or is that what you are suggesting - that life and its creator are mechanical? Something really does not feel right about this. There's too much effort in appearing clever...