Why I Left Radical Traditionalism w/ The Logos Project
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- Опубліковано 11 вер 2024
- Why I Left Radical Traditionalism w/ The Logos Project
Dom from The Logos Project explains why he left radical traditionalism and why he is not part of the SSPX. He also answers live chat questions from the audience.
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Disclaimer: Any view expressed by a host, contributor or guest is not necessarily reflective of the views of other hosts, contributors or guests.
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I started to drift into the Rad Trad movement when I worked security at EWTN. But I noticed most of my friends that were Trad hated the Pope, worshipped Taylor Marshall and had absolutely no joy about their Faith. I also think they made a Golden Calf out of a liturgy and worship the liturgy instead of Christ.
Was this something you encountered alot at EWTN?
@@ReasonandTheology there were a few Rad Trads there. That was my first exposure to them. None of the Friars were like that. But some VPs and others are.
@@Catholic4Rednecks wow that’s scary.
Ditto! Tks for articulating what I feel. No joy is so true!!
That explains some things for sure...
I’m so happy to have found this channel. Rad trads are EVERYWHERE online. And yet, they’re a small minority. But the damage they’re doing is unreal. I think the work you’re doing is so important. Someone needs to combat the poison they spread, because it is legitimately pushing people away.
Glad you found it, too, Not Mn. I agree with you a hundred percent.
Rad trads are like far leftists or far right extremists, they are the smallest number but they yell the loudest. It definitely all gives everyone a bad name, they are as bad as the liberal catholics that want to accept horrible things
Couldn't agree with you more!
i left because it boiled down to an unhealthy fixation on preference as opposed to intrinsic evil.
Yes! You’ve put some of my thoughts into words perfectly.
I suspect a lot of the what is being labeled "radical traditionalism" is mostly stemming from recent UA-cam personae. I think most of what was said applies to those types.
I've been active in the traditionaliat community for about seven years now. Obviously I've had my run ins with quirky guys and people who were getting most of their theology from blogs and UA-cam videos (usually younger people or folks who have had really bad experiences with priests in typical parishes), but my experience on the ground does not match this.
I have actually found a lot more open-mindedness among traditionalists than you would get if you just took this video.
I was born and raised in the traditionalist movement (SSPV) and then (SSPX) in that order and my experience on the ground was exactly this and so much more that just isn't Catholic.
@@AnaMT1985 And I think that this is problem with "in my experience" arguments. I know that I used one, but the video is just Dom describing his story leaving traditionalism and casting a pretty wide net against traditionalists.
I am sure that you had pretty negative interactions with people who were "traditionalists," and I am sure that other people do as well, but to give the impression that all the trads are like that is false.
For example, I regularly go to masses offered by priests of the Society of St. Pius X. I have asked them questions about Vatican II, the New Mass, etc. All the typical talking points. I was actually kind of surprised at the openness I found to both me going to the New Mass and being uncomfortable with some critiques of Vatican II.
I am just saying that I can attest to a different experience.
@@StoaoftheSouth A traditionalist who loves the theology of John Paul II, Benedict XVI, Hans Urs von Balthasar, who is consumed by the desire to implement the reforms that the Second Vatican Council is trying to well up in the Church, a Traditionalist who thinks the 1962 needed reform and that the pre-conciliar era was paganism under Catholic guise because we had become bourgeois, secular, and apathetic, that Traditionalist doesn't exist because that Traditionalist wouldn't call himself a Traditionalist even if he had the 1962 every day of the week! But here's the flip side and the reason for the actually not so broad of a brush claim (I reiterated that there is a spectrum): That you are surprised that a group of priests are "ok" with an ecumenical council is kind of the point: that shouldn't be a surprise! That they have quibbles with aspects of a council... well I would hope so! They better have quibbles with most of them! But that's not the case. It's this one specifically which they reject, and it's because of a narrow way of seeing the Church. The council called for a broader approach to Tradition, and not the single focus on the commentatorial Dominican Tradition (which is a beautiful one). Finally, that you are regularly going to masses offered by Priests that are outside of the visible juridical structure of the Church is exactly what my concern is: don't the traditionalist complain that non-trads don't hold to "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church"? Cheers.
@@StoaoftheSouth interesting how you so easily and quickly dismiss another persons actual experience being in the traditionalist movement 5x's longer than you. While you put so much emphasis on your own personal experience. Not very self aware are you? Go to 20 different SSPX priests and recieve 20 different opinions and answers. That's the problem... that you can find a few that are more open minded and say it's ok to go to the New Mass (again, a problem as they don't have any right to tell people they aren't fulfilling their Sunday obligation and or it's a danger to your faith to go to the New Liturgy in the first place) is just more evidence of the same. Confusion, lack of consistency, lack of authority, and bad opinions that the faithful take as gospel truth are all huge problems in the SSPX. Not to mention all the theological errors that are found in the SSPX and the fact that they are not in Communion with the Church. Then there is the rampant child sex abuse going on in this cultish organization that nobody wants to talk about. I could go on....
@@thelogosproject7 The first points are irrelevant. I have nothing against any of those things, per se. I'm sure more people could offer better educated criticisms than I could.
Also, don't make too much hay out of personal surprise. It might be surprising if most of your idea of traditionalism is formed by online disputes and blogs.
Thank you for such a balanced approach to all of this. I was obsessed with the online Trad movement after being so disappointed by Pope Francis. I finally started to get some sanity after watching your channel.
So glad you had Dom on. The work he is doing is so important not only for those of us who have left these Traditionalist groups who are outside of the Church, but also for our families who are still entrapped in their cultish ideology.
Thank you so much both of you. Much needed voices and helped steer me away from dark rabbit holes and give me peace and joy
Dear Dom, your image of tunnel vision is a very good one! I have caught glimpses of some "tunnel vision" in myself. For instance, when I watch papal Masses in Africa, and the dancing starts, I feel uncomfortable. And when I first saw the statuette of Our Lady of the Amazon (if I am remembering correctly the name that wasn't told us at the time) I was repulsed. (But when Raymond Arroyo called it "Pachamama" I was really surprised. The "goddess" called "Pachamama" is beautiful and smiling and and her eyes are bold like a painted woman in Proverbs. The statuette is a meditation on Mary's unity with the poor-- humble, sad, but with the hope of a child, The Child, within.) My acceptance of my fellow Catholics, whatever their cultures, needs be stretched!
As a case by case analysis I find this very interesting. I from South Africa and i go to an SSPX, I've been converting to Catholicism and i find it interesting how the Western groups of Rad-trads are compared to where I live. First day I arrived people were talking about C.S Lewis, bishop barron, trent horn, how great the Eastern catholics practice out faith. At first I was disheartened by the videos mention of SSPX, but I can see it is a clear case by case. My country isnt Catholic nor is it Christian, that plays a large factor, in that the cosmopolitan nature of the country decreases my chances of rad-trad fear. I feel informed though.
This video is good timing. I just got finished watching/listening to some more trad type channels and podcasts which have me, a protestant transitioning into Catholicism, slightly worried about how things are going. All I see is the pope isnt the real pope or the pope has done this satanic thing or whatever and honestly it has slowed my progress when it comes to actually attending a service here. I have like 4 different Catholic churches near me but none of them have "traditional" services. Some of their arguments made me feel like I shouldn't go to the "newer" services, but there isn't a mass like that for more than an hour away from me so I'm stuck.
I was there too a few years ago. Now I'm happily Catholic and trusting the Holy Spirit to protect the Church. As for the Catholic churches nearby, try them out. Your best bet is probably whichever one is the most reverent.
@Cory Robert you have to watch the video that Michael did on Tradition, and the videos addressing Taylor Marshall on council documents. Also they are wrong about the Novus Ordo. You can attend. With the most respect, radical traditionalist don’t know what they are talking about because they lack an understanding of Tradition. You should also watch the videos Michael did with Timothy Flanders. You don’t need to attend a TLM.
Go to a good Novus ordo near you or an Eastern Catholic parish if you have one.
Church gossip is poison. Once you recognize it, it's much easier to to turn it off and do something productive.
@@Burberryharry don't let the sins of others take you away from reconciling yourself with God.
28:00 this idea that the TLM is supreme is certainly a problem, if not explicitly it certainly is implicit, among Traddom. Looking into the Eastern rites at the beginning of Lent (exploring my options for our move out of state), and it really bust my own Latin-centric Sedeism wide open and really changed my view of the Church after the Council.
Now I'm deprogramming my sedeism and Tradism and returning to Catholicism. Pray for me.
Hey Michael, love the channel man! I was hoping you could do an in depth episode on the permanent deaconate. Lots of differing theologies out there claiming it's merely juridical, as well as weird historical analysis on it's existence.
Also, there are just a lot of bad deacons out there. This, to no fault of their own, I personally blame bad formation.
In general, I think this could be very beneficial for many, especially those trads that abhor it's post-conciliar revival.
done did. with fr. deacon anthony dragani
@@ReasonandTheology k
I've been waiting for years for someone to come forward and address this issue. To be as brief as possible, my grandmother was a very strict traditionalist Catholic and a devout disciple of Archbishop Lefebvre since the early to mid 70's. From Day 1, she was very disgruntled by the changes that happened in the church, especially the liturgy after VII and vehemently fought hard against the changes and the abuses that accompanied them until she finally quit going to the Novus Ordo and began going to the SSPX. She raised my mother in this atmosphere and mindset of "the church has apostasized and lost the true faith and now preaches heresy, Archbishop Lefebvre and his priests and lay followers are the real Catholic church and the remnant church of the last days as foretold by our Lady of Fatima and our Lady of La Sallette. We (SSPX) are the real church, the mainstream Roman church is no more! Archbishop Lefebvre is the new St. Athanasius. He will be canonized a saint and proclaimed a doctor of the church one day. He is a modern prophet and God is speaking and working directly through him. He is the last good bishop. Etc etc"
And I too ended up being raised in this atmosphere and mindset toward the latter half of my childhood. Before that I went to Novus ordo mass, then Methodist church, then no church at all before my mom decided she wanted to return to the Catholic Church, through the trad movement and raise us in it. I too became immersed in this belief system and movement. I even bought into it at least to a point. But I too started to see some things that didn't match up, many of those issues were addressed in this video. I began questioning a lot of things and I even began to discover that the assessment of Vatican II, the New Mass and the post VII popes that I was presented with, was by and large false.
So, over time, I ended up leaving the trad movement and I've been out of it, for the most part, since 2013. Although I've attended FSSP and diocesan Latin masses off and on since then. Over the past few years, I too have begun to discover the beauty and the Eastern churches and their patrimony, and how the Roman church alone is not "The" Church. Too bad where I live, there are almost no Eastern rite churches. If there were, I'd go to them in a heartbeat. Thanks be to God, my mom also left the trad circles shortly after I did because she also began to see the things I saw. Thank you guys for making this video, God continue to bless you in all that you do and I hope and pray many more videos, blogs and books will be created about the issues of radical traditionalism in the near future. God bless.
"how do we navigate discussions with friends falling off the right side of the barque..." May I suggest that instead of arguing with such a person or challenging them, the better way to get them out of the funk of negative radical traditionalism is to encourage them them to focus their time and energy reading the scriptures and praying (away from the internet.). I say that first of all because radical traditionalism is fueled by emotion, not reason, so trying to reason with the distraught person is unlikely to be successful. Second, I have observed that plenty of trads seems to know church gossip and private revelations in detail but don't know the scriptures. Finally it sounds like studying the Bible and prayer got the guest out of negative traditionalism and if it worked for him it seems likely to work for other as well.
You have your finger on the pulse Ben! Thanks for watching.
5:39 "'Theology of the Body' was heresy in my circles."
This is a massive shock to me. Now I'm curious to know what is considered orthodox or acceptable in SSPX or his circles.
Great conversation, thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Interested in feedback on this analogy:
The way in which Leftists argue that anyone with whom they disagree is a White supremacist is akin to the way in which RadTrad Catholics argue that anyone with whom they disagree is a Modernist.
Accurate or unfair?
Probably unfair, but usually most new traditionalists are pretty poorly educated. A lot of things that are "different" might get labeled modernist when really there is more room for nuance than they are allowing.
Accurate to the extent that both groups appeal to a broad category that accounts for all their problems and excuses them from making serious arguments. But personally I would find a better analogy. Leftist ideology is an Orwellian phenomenon in a league of its own
Absolutely accurate. It's also legitimate to nuance that, as Justin pointed out, but consistency inevitably leads me to nuance the liberal as well. If we think that there's nothing but irrational liberals out there, then we are still in our bubble. My study has led me to discover very consistent progressives. Of course, I disagree with them. So, nuance the Trad... and nuance the Liberal. But at the end of the day, you are correct: two different sides of the same coin.
It’s accurate!!
I think alot of prot converts get into rad trad stuff becuase when we get here, its kind of our freak out moment. You see whats going on and you just head for it head on. Its kinda like a calvinists "cage stage", you go through it then you get leveled out over time
It is very much like cage stage
As a convert, I've found that the rad-trad voices are the loudest & most persistent on social media.
I was following them during my conversion but increasingly during the past year or so it started to make me feel like I was failing at Catholicism.
Or it’s a familiar place…Protestantism.
@@d.v.stuyvesant6944 that’s why I tell converts. Get off social media. These crazies are causing so much damage. There are reports of people saying they have stayed away and not converted because of what they’ve heard online.
I had a similar experience since my view of Catholicosm was mostly informed through the Dimond Brothers (sedevacantist). Even though I never went too deep with that part of the movement, it did have a large effect on my spiritual life that was not positive as I was entering and trying to live in the Church.
Michael I'm extremely grateful for you! Thank you for your channel
Thanks!
Hi. I'm liking the content of this channel, it's refreshing.
I think this discussion needed a working definition of what it is to be a rad-trad. You say it's on a spectrum, but at some point you leave the barque. Presumably you're not against the whole spectrum.
I also agree with the view that there is nothing wrong with being radical if that means attached to the roots of the Church.
So, if the only complaint is that radtrads are "mean" and "uncharitable", ok that's wrong, but it doesn't disprove their arguments.
Cradle Catholic and in my mid life fell away. Fell into the Protestant thinking and recently returned to Catholicism. I’m am still trying to find my way but I feel that the worship and structure of the Catholic Church feels more spiritual to me and although not perfect I strongly feel it’s acceptable by God and it is in-fact one of the original churches besides orthodox. I prefer pre Vatican II so I guess I’m more traditional although I do participate is novus odo as well as the Latin mass. I don’t have anything against a good biblical protestant church but I never felt fulfilled. Other than wonderful music and a sermon there is no real worship. If Protestants do communion it is a 15 second prayer and you give yourself communion. Nothing sacred about it. Still they are wonderful people and strong Christian believers. It is sad to me that we throw stones at each other when we both believe in the same God and our Lord Jesus Christ we just have a different way to practice. I asked my priest is if it’s wrong to go to both churches to compliment each other and he said you could, but it may lead to confusion and it would be better to be anchored in one faith.
Protestants always brings up our dogmas. As for Luther he had issues with the Catholic Church but he still was Catholic right?
Historically there are good popes and not so good popes. We do have a bad history along those lines. I feel pope Francis is more liberal but it could be because he is practicing being more inclusive and tolerant. Jesus in his ministry embraced tax collectors and all sinners because how can you change their hearts if you don’t. Still a pope is just a man and I do believe they do the best they can. I do believe the mother church will erode even more if it goes to far though
I've been troubled by what appears to me to be a kind of blinding arrogance that creates and inability to hear argumentation. There is a lot of reliance on selective authorities with maximalist interpretations on their weight. I am sympathetic as much of it is based upon fear, but it's still an overreaction to the theological crisis of the Church today.
Thanks Michael
Thanks!
Would be great if you could chat with a conservative monk who knows liturgy and loves the Novus Ordo. Who also loves Versus Populi and could explain why. There are some good, and possibly surprising reasons to you, why this is so. Just a suggestion. Keep up the good work you are doing. I have been blessed with a respectful N.O. parish - we have organ, some Latin. incense, asperges, and some, not all, beautiful hymns.
This would be a good idea. John Baldovin did a fairly robust defence of the liturgical reform taking on a lot of the better trad critics. It might be of interest to you. That said, his defence of versus populam is pretty weak (I think even he realises this). On this point I think the trads are right, although it's not as big a deal as they make it out to be in my opinion.
I don't think it's prudent to encourage people to dive into intelligent heretics. Only if your faith is on a rock-solid foundation is that a beneficial practice: if you commit mortal sins, and don't know apologetics well, engaging with error will be a scandal-there wasn't an index of forbidden books for no reason!
Could it be that Catholicism is the one true faith which is why it’s so persecuted. I think so.
Possibly
I’ve been wanting to check out St Bonaventure; any suggestions on which books to start with?
The Mind's Road to God
@@ReasonandTheology thank you
Can someone point me to a video or resource that succinctly explains what can change and what cannot change in the Church. What we must accept and what we do not? Thanks.
My magisterium playlist goes over this. Read the document by the congregation for the doctrine of the faith on the concluding paragraphs of the profession of faith.
@@ReasonandTheology thank you and God bless. Keep up your good work. I know you are probably getting push back from some in the traditionalist movement, but keep up the fight!
@@catholicdisciple3232 to say the least. I've been called a child of Satan twice this morning lol
@@ReasonandTheology I pray you don't let it cause you to lose your peace. Whatever you do, don't get jaded. Maintain your charity and joy - it is one of the things that drew me to your channel. Just keep edifying with love and without pride. God bless, brother!
@@catholicdisciple3232 they have been doing it for two years now so it's just another day in the office 😂
Hey Michael,just wondering...who's your favorite doctor of The Church?One that you would highly recommend to read.
Bede
@@ReasonandTheology I heard you mention him before.Didnt know he was a doctor of The Church! Thanks!