I personally think it is impossible to stop your thoughts. That is what the brain does. It thinks. You may as well try to tell your stomach to stop producing stomach acid. As a Zen practitioner my teacher told me that you can't stop thoughts from popping up in your head when you are meditating. But you can just notice them and let them pass by and not become attached to them or focus on them. That was a big help to me because, when I first started Zen practice I thought the goal of Zazen (meditation) was to make your mind go blank, and I was frustrated because I couldn't stop the array of thoughts that kept popping up in my head. Now I just let my thoughts come and go as I meditate. (Great video by the way.) :-)
there r buddha who meditate for many years on blank. only monks know this story. he had women helper who was making food for him. then he went to meditate on zero (empty) for several years. when he came back , the girl was still there .the first thing he asked was-where is my food . lol. then that helper girl said u meditate so many years but yet u were thinking about my food. ur blank meditation is fruitless.then the monk got englishment n became buddha.. super lol...true story
@@NepalShaman I have heard similar about someone who spent all his time in Janha. Coming out of Janha, he demanded his food. The point was that he was as attached to Janha as well as his food.
As a Zen Buddhist priest, the exclusive focus on non-thinking meditation is one of the criticisms I have when it comes to many Zen practitioners and even teachers in the West. It becomes an attachment to that goal, rather than the 'just sitting' that Zazen is supposed to be. It is quite rare you hear someone in my tradition talk about contemplative meditation or Dhyanas, even though it is still part of the Zen tradition originally. You made quite some good points in this video that I will bring with me when discussing this topic in the Sangha, as always. Thank you!
That's great C.F. Yes I've wondered about the historical development of jhāna (dhyana) practice in Zen, especially given that the word Ch'an/Zen basically IS the word "jhāna". Haven't been able to find much out, but maybe you know good source material.
Neither have I, but I'll make sure to ask my professor at Karlstad University. When it comes to finding sources for eastern religious concepts he has been quite helpful in the past.
I think in the west the non thinking thing is actually more connected to Christian meditation and prayer than any Buddhist tradition. Within the Christian tradition there is a style of meditation and prayer that focuses on stillness of mind, and on quieting the mind, specifically for the purpose of listening to God. Of course within Christian tradition there are actual techniques for achieving that lol it's not just trying to force your mind to stop doing literally the one thing it does by virtue of it's existence.
I study Comparative Religion and we're at Buddhism now, this channel is awesome help! We tackled this exact question in class today and practiced some Samatha meditation. I'm new here, but loving it!
Hey that's great Noah, glad to hear this is helping you in your coursework. If any questions come up in class let me know and I can try to answer them. (Though if they're complicated you may have to wait for a new video to come out!)
What a gorgeous story regarding the monk carrying a woman across the river. That stopped me in my tracks and brought my attention to a recurring thought about someone who isn't in my life anymore. It is time to set that person down, gently, but deliberately. Thank you for sharing that.
In my experience, it's common to have both. You can have a stretch without verbal/active thought, then a bit of verbal thought, then go quiet again, in which there is only awareness. So, as you say, it's not a dichotomy, just less thought. But it is also my experience that spending time with only awareness, and no narrative, or decisions, or direction, produces lasting changes in the mind, in a way that, say, contemplation, does not. That is, thoughts can change the content of the mind, but awareness without what we normally label thought, can change the nature of the mind. It is also my experience that this is fairly "dose dependent." The longer the silence, the more profound and long-lasting the change is.
Yes I think that's right photistyx. There are also sort of in-between states like you get in several aspects of traditional mindfulness practice or guided meditation, that involve a directed awareness that is a bit different from contemplation, at least if we understand contemplation as more like normal, quiet thinking.
As a person who can easily spin off a story whilst not meditating, not thinking during meditation is like sunbathing with the warm sunshine on your face. Doug, your explanation has been most helpful. As time goes by it gets easier for me to get into the non thinking / minimal thinking state.
Thank you so much for this-for all your videos, actually. I've probably watched 15 in the past two days as you answer questions that I haven't been able to ask my teacher. I think this video is very important, as I read the Power of Now before I ever started meditating, and I thought the implication was that we were to cease all thoughts. Imagine my frustration when I began meditating, and thoughts kept arising. Finally, I was told that what I was experiencing was normal and to not make a 'blank mind' my goal. I believe a lot of people try meditation with this erroneous belief and become incredibly frustrated and simply give up. Thank you, again!
Thanks for this information. It's helpful. Yesterday I read about this partially as well. Someone explained how they use concentration meditation to calm down and get into a concentrated state first and then they switch to mindfulness meditation to observe their thoughts, emotions, body sensations etc. That was the first time I truly realized the difference between concentration meditation and mindfulness. It also made me realize that many guided meditations seem to use the same tactic as this person. Concentration and mindfulness seems to get mixed regularly. Probably the reason I didn't notice the difference before.
I am unsure how the UA-cam algorithm knows just what I need to see in your videos, but this one came up today and it is extremely well-timed... a dharma-friend of mine and I were talking about this just earlier this week... and I had seen a Jon Kabat-Zinn 'ad' come up which talked about this very notion of "emptying your mind", which he quickly laughs off. ;)
So I went through a phase on the path of non thinking. But not only in meditation, but during the day too, as much as possible. I learnt about a teaching of listening to your heart, or your inner knowing by a teacher named onji. I discovered that there are alot of moments in life where we do things and require no thought at all. Sometimes we have remarkable insights that come in the form of a feeling rather than a thought. This is because alot of teachwrs say the ego leads to suffering and cravings, but when you operate from your inner sepf which is beyond thought, you make the right decisions, because it is unconditional of selfishness. However I ended up in this situation where I was mindful but having lots of negativity and hateful thoughts, which lead to strong emotional backlash. Having depression, anxiety and anger build up. I assumed that this was just my ego and not self, bit it was still weighing me down. Later I decided that thought was nit had but had to be used skilfully. So I think in ways that were relevant to the situation and this was the perfect balance. Lessening our thoughts and making them relevant. Even during meditation. Sometimes you need to think in order to keep yourself engaged in the meditation. Especially around the beginning. For example twlling myself I breathe in, or breathe out. It swaps irrelevant thoughts out for productive thoughts which at first aid my focus on the breath. However as I deepen the meditation I go into just awareness of the breath. Most of this was due to a lack of teaching or the ability to ask questions so I struggled to understand the practice by relyong on the internet.
Thank you for this. I think the Koan is great, and the example of minimalist thinking is a great distinction. Often times with practice you begin to think that thinking is not something you want to do but really you want to use thoughts to solve a problem and then move on and now leave the faucet on so to speak.
I find that the longer I sit the chances of not actively thinking increases. Longer spaces between thoughts. It usually takes 10 minutes to start slowing and after 25 minutes there are noticeable gaps. For daily practice I don’t usually go beyond beyond 25 minutes but usually that’s enough to slow things down and get my head right.
I sometimes get the feeling that sudden enlightenment comes into my mind, like I contemplate a concept about non dualism and I can visualize a way to explain my “question”. Almost like the non-self is answering the ahamkara, instead of thoughts popping up into my head I feel as though it’s the questions that pop in and then something else replies to them with confidence and truth that I don’t find in myself during regular states of consciousness, it reminds me to psychedelic experiences where the “unconscious” brings up answers to questions we have about ourselves, only in this case there’s sometimes information I had no idea I had within me. I’m not a traditional practitioner or really a true believer of esotericism but I do find this extremely difficult to explain without accepting that it almost feels as if I access something or someone larger than my own concious mind, or maybe an unknown side of my non-self that I had no idea existed During these experiences I feel as though the ideas I understand (not logically but truly truly understand as like from experience and not reading a book) are obvious and I effortlessly, almost as if shown to me, visualize amazing ways to show epistemic diagrams for non dualistic concepts, it’s even hard to put into words but for example finding the exact place where 1 becomes 2 and then realizing you can zoom into it forever like a fractal. It’s really out there Afterwards I no longer feel as confident or the same but I can remember the visualizations or ideas I learned I’ve been kinda thoughtful about it though, because is that daydreaming? Even if it’s insightful, maybe that’s something of value, just not actually meditation Not sure though because it only arises after deep meditation when I forget about reality and start to observe some of the questions that pop in my head once I slow my thoughts down and observe them I just don’t stop being a self during these experiences as opposed to other times where I can detach from the sense of self
This is very valuable for me to compare with various experiences in my own meditation. Some of them leave me a bit clueless wondering if I took a wrong turn. I know the vanishing of verbal thinking towards a horizon. Then something like space opens up that sometimes is filled with something like smog. In that stage I watch my mind coming up with activities in form of movements without words. On lucky days a pleasurable clarity appears which unfortunately in later sessions I want to find again. All I get then is smog again.
This lecture is indeed a mind opener for me...gives me lots to think about my mental state while in "meditation" Thanks so much for sharing, very appreciative of your help...💝🌻
I have been listening a lot to Yuttadhammo Bhikku and I can relate to mindfulness and noting to be in the present always bringing the mind back to the present when it goes off on a tangent, noting, thinking. I love the the idea of just let seeing be seeing and hearing be hearing. I understand that it takes a lot of training of the mind but it seems beautiful in it's simplicity.
Like Doug said logical thinking and intuitive thinking has its place, I wouldn't do away with either one. Sometimes what we feel is right and true is not actually true and that's where logical thinking comes in. I find that problems are more complex than what we think is right or wrong.
@@Samew0001 I agree. But with koan practice specifically, the goal is to confront a question that has no logical answer and thus force your mind to go beyond A > B > C thinking so speak.
Thanks for this video Doug. This topic is one I have been struggling with. Trying to learn meditation from books and the internet is a mixed bag. The different styles of meditation and when to use them and why are difficult for me to grasp. This video helped clear some of that up. Thank you.
This reminds me of the shikantaza meditation of Soto Zen where you are supposed to observe thoughts as they come and go without being too fixated on them. Like a rock in a riverbed which remains unmoved as the water flows through it.
Thinking, takes energy, a lot... When you live your life constantly thinking, the loss energy turn you into a state of limited experience of life... the same happens with other constant, we believe involuntary, activities, sense cravings, fear, stress... all are object of the mind, also and fundamentally objects created by the mind. We need to arrive naturally to a state were we are not throwing our energy away fruitlessly... Discovering this proccess in the making is the object of meditation... Yes, the object... Right now you have to think that this is just more thinking... When you, naturally discover Sunya, Zero... the process accumulates energy instead of lossing it... Coming in and out of zero, accumulates energy. this can be confirmed in you regular day, but specially in situations were meditation is done constantly... Since this is just, a thought in the page you are reading, it is not inmediately evident for you... It is less evident that this process creates and disolves you! To put it to the test without a fixated self to do the testing, this is meditation... Usually we are creating objects without taking notice, mostly and essentially our selves, and this is a fundamental alienation. Alienation, that can not be overcome without the process we call Life, really Life-Death... it has to end naturally, expontaneous process... When you arrive to this your time may be Now. May it be, we know the compassion of the Buddhas is universally needed! Deep Gassho!
For me the key is just being aware of what the mind is doing. Are there a lot of thoughts? That's ok. Are there no thoughts? That's also ok. Just don't get too attached to any particular state of mind. Also thoughts are fuel for the practicing of awareness imo. We can't train awareness of thoughts, which is very useful in daily life, without thoughts to be aware of.
@@DougsDharma No thank you for your continually great work at making the Dharma accessible and approchable for many people from all over the world :) you and your work are a treasure!
In recent times I’ve attended retreats in 3 different traditions: Tibetan (lead by a Tibetan lama). Soto Zen, and Vipassana. All 3 teachers prompted us to become aware of the gap or hiatus between thoughts. Sort of a ecumenical or synergistic approach to meditation technique going on these days. Doug! Totally different question. Are you doing these talks with the aid of a teleprompter or is it all extemporaneous? Either way quite interesting.
Yes Bob, I think many of these teachers are learning from each other and each other's traditions, which is nice. As for my talks, I do them from an outline so that they are extemporaneous but structured. (I've just made these outlines available over on Patreon, FWIW). www.patreon.com/dougsseculardharma
I had a rather scary experience once while doing a clearing type meditation. It took a while before I got to the point where the ocean of thought actually stopped and when it did there was a wordless recognition that word based thought had stopped(still thinking but not in words?) then there was a loud animalistic type scream within my own mind that just said "hey". This wasn't some disembodied voice that seemed to come from outside of me or anything. That caused my heart to race and although the brief moment of almost complete stillness felt great I've been nervous about even trying to reach that state again ever since. Although I was a teen when this happened I'm now 40 and have never shown signs of a mental illness like schizophrenia. I'm not sure how to even phrase this experience so that I can do more research into what it was, why it happened, etc. This "clearing type mediation" first started as me actually putting in effort towards cessation of thinking but then eventually after I realized that wasn't going to work I just started observing the thoughts. At some point they just stopped and shortly after I recognized it in a wordless way is when I had this experience.
So from what I've found from binge watching your videos and researching various forums is that what I had wasn't actually extremely uncommon. What it seems to be, from my extremely limited understanding, is that I unknowingly reached the second jhana and then had a fear based response after the realization that word based thought had stopped. The way that manifested for me was a loud animalistic scream that just said "HEY" but I've found several different discussions centering around "fear of absorption" which all differ in some ways from my experience but also have some major common points. The common thread in the proposed solutions was something like "concentration meditation while labeling and acknowledging thoughts and emotions as they arise". That should help if/when I ever reach that second jhana again since I should be able to label/let pass any thoughts or emotions, including freezing fear, that arise.
This is a very good topic. The view of not thinking goes along with the misconception that to be Buddhist is to be pacifist. In terms of meditation, it would seem to be largely developing correct view. For instance, not rationalizing. One of the things that sem to me to be human is to be able to find excuses to justify actions. If you only look at what justifies your actions and not what that would indicate your actions would be unskillful, you can always justify your actions. To me, mindfulness and meditation is allowing us to see that complete view, free from congative bias based upon what we want to be true.
Thanks Steve. I'm not sure I see the relation with pacifism though. In early Buddhism the Buddha was against violence. But yes one can always find justifications for any course of action if one wants to, this is part of what is taught in law school, no? Rhetorical techniques can be very strong. If we want to get out from under them, we need to do the work. It's not easy.
@@DougsDharma Because Buddhist meditate and focus on the internal, many view this as being pacifist, which is far from the truth. To develop correct view and act with skillful means is how Buddhism shows how to create positive change. If you change how you think, you change how you react to the world, which changes how people react to you. In terms of the modern world, do protests out of passion that result in violence cause change, and do the protests last? Or do protests that simply say we shall not accept this and we are going to keep returning until we see change work? Protests out of passion soon die out. Those based upon right view would continue until real change occurs. Right effort comes into play here.
Hey doug. I was wondering if you could discuss enlightenment. Theres alot of grey area about enlightenment. For example. Does enlightenment mean nothing will ever bother you? That you will never get angry? Or does it mean, things do bother you, but you don't suffer or make a big deal out of it? Can an enlightened being be sad, or angry? Are they always blissed out? Maybe, do enlightened beings always sit in a strong jhana state. Or can they sometimes be in states of deep thought? Id love to hear a video talking about the concept of nirvana.
Great questions Kyle, I'll put them on the list to do a video on eventually. But for now I do have an earlier video that touches on some of this: ua-cam.com/video/XkJpp7rNBTA/v-deo.html
Hm. I think there's a good argument to be made that awareness and mindfulness is not conceptual at all even if it focuses on a discrete part of experience. The way we use thinking nowadays seems more aligned with mental formations and feeling. In mindfulness we don't generate either, we just observe.
Well if you look at the instructions for mindfulness meditation in the sutta on the Four Foundations of Mindfulness you will see there is a lot more than simple observation going on ...
@ I thought about it more and did some research, I think it would be interesting to do a video that PROVES this point, that meditation involves mental formations, by identifying the type of mental formations (according to the Abhidharma or other sutras) that’s invoked in meditation.
Doug thanks,,: your teachings Are Amazing.! The jhanas Are the 5th dimension? Do you think the devas realm Is the 5th dimension? Thank you very mucho again.
My pleasure Antonio! I don't think the jhānas have anything really to do with dimensions of physical space. They're more experiential than that. The realm of the devas is to me best seen as myth or metaphor.
Doug, excuse me if this may sound like a stupid question, but isn't what you're describing from 2:55 - 6:40 more classed as contemplation rather than meditation?
These are examples of traditional meditation techniques, in the foundations of mindfulness themselves. So long as we are focused on the experiences rather than getting caught up in stories and other forms of mental proliferation, we are properly meditating and not "merely" contemplating. That said, this is also a matter of definitions. If we decide to define meditation more narrowly, then many of the most central techniques in Buddhist meditation would be examples of contemplation.
Help me out Doug- I have been disturbed by reports of people trying to "empty their mind of ALL thought" only to suffer cognitive problems that sound like depersonalisation disorder. Is it more correct to say that "non-thinking" meditation is about focusing on one thing (e.g. the breath, a mantra, physical senses) and emptying the mind of all OTHER thought (before letting subsequent thought rise and fall without attachment)? Or am I still off?
That's right Sam, meditation that's sometimes considered "non-thinking" is really meditation that's focused one-pointedly on a single object such as the breath, a sensation, an emotion, or something similar. There is a kind of literal "non-thinking" meditation mentioned in early Buddhism but it's something that supposedly only awakened people can attain, and it's not central to the path.
@@DougsDharma Thank you for clearing that up. It seems that when these terms and phrases are thrown around in an inexact way it can be confusing, even dangerous for some.
Samādhi = Concentration = No thinking (Samatha) The final destination of Samādhi is Jhana and Abhiññᾱ Contemplation = Thinking (Vipassana) The final destination of Vipassana is Magga , Phala and Nivirna.
I went through a phase where if I had any thoughts I didn’t notice at all it was a deep state of silence I achieved it practicing Sakshy Dhyan I’m not debating I just can’t deny my personal experience about this topic but this hasn’t happened to me with other kinds of meditations with Shamatha was different I had thoughts but they didn’t bother me I didn’t identify with them they came and went 😊
the mindfullness of death meditation seems like a verry important part that we forgot to practice. the agoris in hinduism do it (maybe abit too much haha) .
@@DougsDharma I see why it can be off-putting especially in western societies where death is taboo. I think that's what makes it important. If you did that here in france people would thing you went crazy.
I once tried long long time ago but failed to. Maybe wasn't in peace and cannot focus. What I heard(dunno true or false), some beginners may encounter negative things, ghosts? Something like that. Is it true?
I don't know Keith, I think most people don't have much negative come out of meditation except encounters with themselves and their thought-patterns. But that's a negativity that can lead to better results if we practice well.
Hi Doug recently I read this book by Osho called" The book of secrets: 112 meditations to discover the mystery within" and it has some good insights about meditation contemplation and concentration but they seem to ambiguous. If possible could you clear that up🙏🙏
Thanks for the question it wankhade, but unfortunately I’m not familiar with Osho’s views, and given the multiple controversies surrounding his guruship I personally would not use him as source material.
Osho said that the Buddha's older brother made him promise that he would never leave him once he joined the Sanga. Then stated that the only time the Buddha asked him for some privacy was when he reunited with his wife. Do you know if that is stated in the Pali cannon?
Shouldn't we be considered with any spiritual path that leads to awakening. I know about the controversies but Osho appeals to logic that I can't deny.
I'm a bit disappointed here with the apologetics for the four elements. It sounds like you might not know how the modern phases of matter or are just skipping over that it invalidates the older models.
Free mini-course at the Online Dharma Institute: onlinedharma.org!
I personally think it is impossible to stop your thoughts. That is what the brain does. It thinks. You may as well try to tell your stomach to stop producing stomach acid. As a Zen practitioner my teacher told me that you can't stop thoughts from popping up in your head when you are meditating. But you can just notice them and let them pass by and not become attached to them or focus on them. That was a big help to me because, when I first started Zen practice I thought the goal of Zazen (meditation) was to make your mind go blank, and I was frustrated because I couldn't stop the array of thoughts that kept popping up in my head. Now I just let my thoughts come and go as I meditate. (Great video by the way.) :-)
Exactly so Octoberfurst. If we try to stop our thoughts we will just end up frustrated and mentally exhausted.
there r buddha who meditate for many years on blank. only monks know this story. he had women helper who was making food for him. then he went to meditate on zero (empty) for several years. when he came back , the girl was still there .the first thing he asked was-where is my food . lol. then that helper girl said u meditate so many years but yet u were thinking about my food. ur blank meditation is fruitless.then the monk got englishment n became buddha.. super lol...true story
@@NepalShaman I have heard similar about someone who spent all his time in Janha. Coming out of Janha, he demanded his food. The point was that he was as attached to Janha as well as his food.
*rings bell*
Mind will not stop to think, but we will busy our mind in Budh tecnic.you should learn this meditation.
As a Zen Buddhist priest, the exclusive focus on non-thinking meditation is one of the criticisms I have when it comes to many Zen practitioners and even teachers in the West. It becomes an attachment to that goal, rather than the 'just sitting' that Zazen is supposed to be. It is quite rare you hear someone in my tradition talk about contemplative meditation or Dhyanas, even though it is still part of the Zen tradition originally.
You made quite some good points in this video that I will bring with me when discussing this topic in the Sangha, as always. Thank you!
That's great C.F. Yes I've wondered about the historical development of jhāna (dhyana) practice in Zen, especially given that the word Ch'an/Zen basically IS the word "jhāna". Haven't been able to find much out, but maybe you know good source material.
Neither have I, but I'll make sure to ask my professor at Karlstad University. When it comes to finding sources for eastern religious concepts he has been quite helpful in the past.
Yes that would be nice to know.
I think in the west the non thinking thing is actually more connected to Christian meditation and prayer than any Buddhist tradition. Within the Christian tradition there is a style of meditation and prayer that focuses on stillness of mind, and on quieting the mind, specifically for the purpose of listening to God. Of course within Christian tradition there are actual techniques for achieving that lol it's not just trying to force your mind to stop doing literally the one thing it does by virtue of it's existence.
I study Comparative Religion and we're at Buddhism now, this channel is awesome help! We tackled this exact question in class today and practiced some Samatha meditation. I'm new here, but loving it!
Hey that's great Noah, glad to hear this is helping you in your coursework. If any questions come up in class let me know and I can try to answer them. (Though if they're complicated you may have to wait for a new video to come out!)
What a gorgeous story regarding the monk carrying a woman across the river. That stopped me in my tracks and brought my attention to a recurring thought about someone who isn't in my life anymore. It is time to set that person down, gently, but deliberately. Thank you for sharing that.
Cool! Yes, it's such an important practice, one we can all learn from. Not always easy though!
In my experience, it's common to have both. You can have a stretch without verbal/active thought, then a bit of verbal thought, then go quiet again, in which there is only awareness. So, as you say, it's not a dichotomy, just less thought. But it is also my experience that spending time with only awareness, and no narrative, or decisions, or direction, produces lasting changes in the mind, in a way that, say, contemplation, does not. That is, thoughts can change the content of the mind, but awareness without what we normally label thought, can change the nature of the mind. It is also my experience that this is fairly "dose dependent." The longer the silence, the more profound and long-lasting the change is.
Yes I think that's right photistyx. There are also sort of in-between states like you get in several aspects of traditional mindfulness practice or guided meditation, that involve a directed awareness that is a bit different from contemplation, at least if we understand contemplation as more like normal, quiet thinking.
As a person who can easily spin off a story whilst not meditating, not thinking during meditation is like sunbathing with the warm sunshine on your face. Doug, your explanation has been most helpful. As time goes by it gets easier for me to get into the non thinking / minimal thinking state.
Glad to help! 🙏
Thank you so much for this-for all your videos, actually. I've probably watched 15 in the past two days as you answer questions that I haven't been able to ask my teacher. I think this video is very important, as I read the Power of Now before I ever started meditating, and I thought the implication was that we were to cease all thoughts. Imagine my frustration when I began meditating, and thoughts kept arising. Finally, I was told that what I was experiencing was normal and to not make a 'blank mind' my goal. I believe a lot of people try meditation with this erroneous belief and become incredibly frustrated and simply give up. Thank you, again!
Yes I agree, it can be very confusing sometimes! 😄
Dough, I watch quiet regularly your videos and do really appreciate your excellent comments, remarks,..on buddhism !
Thank you very much !🤗🙋🏻♂️
You're very welcome!
Hello Doug, just found your channel I think it brilliant. I'm going to use your information to become a kinder, calmer ,nicer person.
Great! Glad to hear it John. It’s a long term and gradual process, but the intention is key. 🙏
Doug, you have a lovely way of explaining tough topics clearly. Thank you.
You're very welcome Anati, I'm glad you're finding them approachable!
As usual, great no nonsense presentation & information, with thanks
You’re very welcome Tom. Thanks for the comment. 🙏
I'm glad I found your channel. You know your material.
Thanks Chris, glad you found it too! Let me know if you have any questions.
Very clear, accessible and reasonable. I'm glad I find you Doug!
Thanks for this information. It's helpful.
Yesterday I read about this partially as well. Someone explained how they use concentration meditation to calm down and get into a concentrated state first and then they switch to mindfulness meditation to observe their thoughts, emotions, body sensations etc. That was the first time I truly realized the difference between concentration meditation and mindfulness. It also made me realize that many guided meditations seem to use the same tactic as this person. Concentration and mindfulness seems to get mixed regularly. Probably the reason I didn't notice the difference before.
Glad to hear it Minoes. Yes the two are subtly but importantly different.
Thank you Doug
I am unsure how the UA-cam algorithm knows just what I need to see in your videos, but this one came up today and it is extremely well-timed... a dharma-friend of mine and I were talking about this just earlier this week... and I had seen a Jon Kabat-Zinn 'ad' come up which talked about this very notion of "emptying your mind", which he quickly laughs off. ;)
Cool! Funny how those things happen isn't it Dustin. 😄
Observing thought in deep meditation is one of the best ways to understand anatta deeply.
🙏
did vipassana 10 days course. you are so right about thinking, also no love or aversion to thought will pacify thinking
Yes that's right Rajiv. If thinking is to stop, it must stop on its own.
So I went through a phase on the path of non thinking. But not only in meditation, but during the day too, as much as possible. I learnt about a teaching of listening to your heart, or your inner knowing by a teacher named onji. I discovered that there are alot of moments in life where we do things and require no thought at all. Sometimes we have remarkable insights that come in the form of a feeling rather than a thought. This is because alot of teachwrs say the ego leads to suffering and cravings, but when you operate from your inner sepf which is beyond thought, you make the right decisions, because it is unconditional of selfishness.
However I ended up in this situation where I was mindful but having lots of negativity and hateful thoughts, which lead to strong emotional backlash. Having depression, anxiety and anger build up. I assumed that this was just my ego and not self, bit it was still weighing me down.
Later I decided that thought was nit had but had to be used skilfully. So I think in ways that were relevant to the situation and this was the perfect balance. Lessening our thoughts and making them relevant. Even during meditation.
Sometimes you need to think in order to keep yourself engaged in the meditation. Especially around the beginning. For example twlling myself I breathe in, or breathe out. It swaps irrelevant thoughts out for productive thoughts which at first aid my focus on the breath. However as I deepen the meditation I go into just awareness of the breath.
Most of this was due to a lack of teaching or the ability to ask questions so I struggled to understand the practice by relyong on the internet.
That's right Kyle, sometimes with these difficulties it helps to have a local teacher who is expert in meditation to help you through.
Thank you for this. I think the Koan is great, and the example of minimalist thinking is a great distinction. Often times with practice you begin to think that thinking is not something you want to do but really you want to use thoughts to solve a problem and then move on and now leave the faucet on so to speak.
Yes there are so many knots we can tie ourselves in by unthinking thinking. 😄
I find that the longer I sit the chances of not actively thinking increases. Longer spaces between thoughts. It usually takes 10 minutes to start slowing and after 25 minutes there are noticeable gaps. For daily practice I don’t usually go beyond beyond 25 minutes but usually that’s enough to slow things down and get my head right.
Yes, I've heard some meditation teachers say their mind doesn't really calm down until the second or third day of a retreat. So longer helps!
I sometimes get the feeling that sudden enlightenment comes into my mind, like I contemplate a concept about non dualism and I can visualize a way to explain my “question”. Almost like the non-self is answering the ahamkara, instead of thoughts popping up into my head I feel as though it’s the questions that pop in and then something else replies to them with confidence and truth that I don’t find in myself during regular states of consciousness, it reminds me to psychedelic experiences where the “unconscious” brings up answers to questions we have about ourselves, only in this case there’s sometimes information I had no idea I had within me. I’m not a traditional practitioner or really a true believer of esotericism but I do find this extremely difficult to explain without accepting that it almost feels as if I access something or someone larger than my own concious mind, or maybe an unknown side of my non-self that I had no idea existed
During these experiences I feel as though the ideas I understand (not logically but truly truly understand as like from experience and not reading a book) are obvious and I effortlessly, almost as if shown to me, visualize amazing ways to show epistemic diagrams for non dualistic concepts, it’s even hard to put into words but for example finding the exact place where 1 becomes 2 and then realizing you can zoom into it forever like a fractal. It’s really out there
Afterwards I no longer feel as confident or the same but I can remember the visualizations or ideas I learned
I’ve been kinda thoughtful about it though, because is that daydreaming? Even if it’s insightful, maybe that’s something of value, just not actually meditation
Not sure though because it only arises after deep meditation when I forget about reality and start to observe some of the questions that pop in my head once I slow my thoughts down and observe them
I just don’t stop being a self during these experiences as opposed to other times where I can detach from the sense of self
I think you're having some insight into non-self. Even our own thoughts and ideas aren't under our control. They simply arise and pass.
This is very valuable for me to compare with various experiences in my own meditation. Some of them leave me a bit clueless wondering if I took a wrong turn. I know the vanishing of verbal thinking towards a horizon. Then something like space opens up that sometimes is filled with something like smog. In that stage I watch my mind coming up with activities in form of movements without words. On lucky days a pleasurable clarity appears which unfortunately in later sessions I want to find again. All I get then is smog again.
Yes, sit with the smog! 😊
This lecture is indeed a mind opener for me...gives me lots to think about my mental state while in "meditation"
Thanks so much for sharing, very appreciative of your help...💝🌻
You’re very welcome Pauline, thanks for your comment! 🙏🙂
I was just about to lie down to meditate and find this video! This channel is so great for beginners
Nice of you to say fujisake, I'm trying to make it approachable for all. 🙏
Thank you so much for your videos, Doug! It's my to-do thing every night now before going to bed. They're very clear and interesting!
Cool, glad to hear it Denise, thanks for your comment!
Very helpful explanation.
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I have been listening a lot to Yuttadhammo Bhikku and I can relate to mindfulness and noting to be in the present always bringing the mind back to the present when it goes off on a tangent, noting, thinking. I love the the idea of just let seeing be seeing and hearing be hearing. I understand that it takes a lot of training of the mind but it seems beautiful in it's simplicity.
Yes I agree Gerhard. It makes a lot of sense, but it's hard to realize!
Brilliant! Thanks!
You're very welcome Kyle, thanks for watching!
For me, thinking is very much the goal, specifically intuitive thinking rather than logical problem solving.
It certainly can be one goal fairytalejedi, remaining attentive and aware. Problem solving also has its place, but not so much in meditation. 🙂
Like Doug said logical thinking and intuitive thinking has its place, I wouldn't do away with either one. Sometimes what we feel is right and true is not actually true and that's where logical thinking comes in. I find that problems are more complex than what we think is right or wrong.
@@Samew0001 I agree. But with koan practice specifically, the goal is to confront a question that has no logical answer and thus force your mind to go beyond A > B > C thinking so speak.
Super clean presentation, Doug! So helpful for me with my studies - thanks as always!
Very welcome Karma Wayne, glad they are helping you!
Thanks for this video Doug. This topic is one I have been struggling with. Trying to learn meditation from books and the internet is a mixed bag. The different styles of meditation and when to use them and why are difficult for me to grasp. This video helped clear some of that up. Thank you.
You're very welcome Blake, yes it can be confusing!
Thanks Doug really well explained 😊
Glad you liked it A S!
Blessing from Nepal, Land of Himalayas and Birth Place of Gautam Buddha. (Lumbini).
Thank you Doug I appreciate you clearing this up.
My pleasure Ryan. I think it's something we often stumble over.
This reminds me of the shikantaza meditation of Soto Zen where you are supposed to observe thoughts as they come and go without being too fixated on them. Like a rock in a riverbed which remains unmoved as the water flows through it.
Right, and even that isn't a blank mind. It's a mind filled with observation.
Thinking, takes energy, a lot... When you live your life constantly thinking, the loss energy turn you into a state of limited experience of life... the same happens with other constant, we believe involuntary, activities, sense cravings, fear, stress... all are object of the mind, also and fundamentally objects created by the mind. We need to arrive naturally to a state were we are not throwing our energy away fruitlessly... Discovering this proccess in the making is the object of meditation... Yes, the object... Right now you have to think that this is just more thinking... When you, naturally discover Sunya, Zero... the process accumulates energy instead of lossing it... Coming in and out of zero, accumulates energy. this can be confirmed in you regular day, but specially in situations were meditation is done constantly... Since this is just, a thought in the page you are reading, it is not inmediately evident for you... It is less evident that this process creates and disolves you! To put it to the test without a fixated self to do the testing, this is meditation... Usually we are creating objects without taking notice, mostly and essentially our selves, and this is a fundamental alienation. Alienation, that can not be overcome without the process we call Life, really Life-Death... it has to end naturally, expontaneous process... When you arrive to this your time may be Now. May it be, we know the compassion of the Buddhas is universally needed! Deep Gassho!
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For me the key is just being aware of what the mind is doing. Are there a lot of thoughts? That's ok. Are there no thoughts? That's also ok. Just don't get too attached to any particular state of mind. Also thoughts are fuel for the practicing of awareness imo. We can't train awareness of thoughts, which is very useful in daily life, without thoughts to be aware of.
That's right Maximilian, thanks!
@@DougsDharma No thank you for your continually great work at making the Dharma accessible and approchable for many people from all over the world :) you and your work are a treasure!
Thank you fot this video...
My pleasure!
I really enjoy your channel.
Thanks Anubis, glad you are enjoying it! 🙏
Thank you!
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In recent times I’ve attended retreats in 3 different traditions: Tibetan (lead by a Tibetan lama). Soto Zen, and Vipassana. All 3 teachers prompted us to become aware of the gap or hiatus between thoughts. Sort of a ecumenical or synergistic approach to meditation technique going on these days.
Doug! Totally different question. Are you doing these talks with the aid of a teleprompter or is it all extemporaneous? Either way quite interesting.
Yes Bob, I think many of these teachers are learning from each other and each other's traditions, which is nice. As for my talks, I do them from an outline so that they are extemporaneous but structured. (I've just made these outlines available over on Patreon, FWIW). www.patreon.com/dougsseculardharma
I had a rather scary experience once while doing a clearing type meditation. It took a while before I got to the point where the ocean of thought actually stopped and when it did there was a wordless recognition that word based thought had stopped(still thinking but not in words?) then there was a loud animalistic type scream within my own mind that just said "hey". This wasn't some disembodied voice that seemed to come from outside of me or anything. That caused my heart to race and although the brief moment of almost complete stillness felt great I've been nervous about even trying to reach that state again ever since. Although I was a teen when this happened I'm now 40 and have never shown signs of a mental illness like schizophrenia. I'm not sure how to even phrase this experience so that I can do more research into what it was, why it happened, etc. This "clearing type mediation" first started as me actually putting in effort towards cessation of thinking but then eventually after I realized that wasn't going to work I just started observing the thoughts. At some point they just stopped and shortly after I recognized it in a wordless way is when I had this experience.
So from what I've found from binge watching your videos and researching various forums is that what I had wasn't actually extremely uncommon. What it seems to be, from my extremely limited understanding, is that I unknowingly reached the second jhana and then had a fear based response after the realization that word based thought had stopped. The way that manifested for me was a loud animalistic scream that just said "HEY" but I've found several different discussions centering around "fear of absorption" which all differ in some ways from my experience but also have some major common points. The common thread in the proposed solutions was something like "concentration meditation while labeling and acknowledging thoughts and emotions as they arise". That should help if/when I ever reach that second jhana again since I should be able to label/let pass any thoughts or emotions, including freezing fear, that arise.
This is a very good topic. The view of not thinking goes along with the misconception that to be Buddhist is to be pacifist. In terms of meditation, it would seem to be largely developing correct view. For instance, not rationalizing. One of the things that sem to me to be human is to be able to find excuses to justify actions. If you only look at what justifies your actions and not what that would indicate your actions would be unskillful, you can always justify your actions. To me, mindfulness and meditation is allowing us to see that complete view, free from congative bias based upon what we want to be true.
Thanks Steve. I'm not sure I see the relation with pacifism though. In early Buddhism the Buddha was against violence. But yes one can always find justifications for any course of action if one wants to, this is part of what is taught in law school, no? Rhetorical techniques can be very strong. If we want to get out from under them, we need to do the work. It's not easy.
@@DougsDharma Because Buddhist meditate and focus on the internal, many view this as being pacifist, which is far from the truth. To develop correct view and act with skillful means is how Buddhism shows how to create positive change. If you change how you think, you change how you react to the world, which changes how people react to you.
In terms of the modern world, do protests out of passion that result in violence cause change, and do the protests last? Or do protests that simply say we shall not accept this and we are going to keep returning until we see change work? Protests out of passion soon die out. Those based upon right view would continue until real change occurs. Right effort comes into play here.
As marcus aurelius said:"don't add!". "Wipe out imagination! Stop the pulling of the strings!".
Interesting, yes there are lots of overlaps between Buddhist and Stoic notions of practice.
Hey doug. I was wondering if you could discuss enlightenment.
Theres alot of grey area about enlightenment.
For example. Does enlightenment mean nothing will ever bother you? That you will never get angry? Or does it mean, things do bother you, but you don't suffer or make a big deal out of it?
Can an enlightened being be sad, or angry? Are they always blissed out?
Maybe, do enlightened beings always sit in a strong jhana state. Or can they sometimes be in states of deep thought?
Id love to hear a video talking about the concept of nirvana.
Great questions Kyle, I'll put them on the list to do a video on eventually. But for now I do have an earlier video that touches on some of this: ua-cam.com/video/XkJpp7rNBTA/v-deo.html
Hm. I think there's a good argument to be made that awareness and mindfulness is not conceptual at all even if it focuses on a discrete part of experience. The way we use thinking nowadays seems more aligned with mental formations and feeling. In mindfulness we don't generate either, we just observe.
Well if you look at the instructions for mindfulness meditation in the sutta on the Four Foundations of Mindfulness you will see there is a lot more than simple observation going on ...
@ you're the expert! I guess if the sutra instructs the meditator to label their experience that would qualify as mental formations and thinking. 👍
@ I thought about it more and did some research, I think it would be interesting to do a video that PROVES this point, that meditation involves mental formations, by identifying the type of mental formations (according to the Abhidharma or other sutras) that’s invoked in meditation.
Some Thai master or monks deliberately go to very haunted place or isolated mountain areas.
The Buddha talks about having gone to scary places in the forest to meditate. It was one of his early techniques.
can you do a video about self love seen trough the lens of early buddhist dharma? and how does detachement from the idea of self, affect self love ?
I'll put it on the list!
Doug thanks,,: your teachings Are Amazing.! The jhanas Are the 5th dimension? Do you think the devas realm Is the 5th dimension? Thank you very mucho again.
My pleasure Antonio! I don't think the jhānas have anything really to do with dimensions of physical space. They're more experiential than that. The realm of the devas is to me best seen as myth or metaphor.
Doug, excuse me if this may sound like a stupid question, but isn't what you're describing from 2:55 - 6:40 more classed as contemplation rather than meditation?
These are examples of traditional meditation techniques, in the foundations of mindfulness themselves. So long as we are focused on the experiences rather than getting caught up in stories and other forms of mental proliferation, we are properly meditating and not "merely" contemplating. That said, this is also a matter of definitions. If we decide to define meditation more narrowly, then many of the most central techniques in Buddhist meditation would be examples of contemplation.
@@DougsDharma Thank you so much for clearing that up, Doug. You couldn't have worded that any better. Thanks again.
Help me out Doug- I have been disturbed by reports of people trying to "empty their mind of ALL thought" only to suffer cognitive problems that sound like depersonalisation disorder. Is it more correct to say that "non-thinking" meditation is about focusing on one thing (e.g. the breath, a mantra, physical senses) and emptying the mind of all OTHER thought (before letting subsequent thought rise and fall without attachment)? Or am I still off?
That's right Sam, meditation that's sometimes considered "non-thinking" is really meditation that's focused one-pointedly on a single object such as the breath, a sensation, an emotion, or something similar. There is a kind of literal "non-thinking" meditation mentioned in early Buddhism but it's something that supposedly only awakened people can attain, and it's not central to the path.
@@DougsDharma Thank you for clearing that up. It seems that when these terms and phrases are thrown around in an inexact way it can be confusing, even dangerous for some.
Samādhi = Concentration = No thinking (Samatha)
The final destination of Samādhi is Jhana and Abhiññᾱ
Contemplation = Thinking (Vipassana)
The final destination of Vipassana is Magga , Phala and Nivirna.
I went through a phase where if I had any thoughts I didn’t notice at all it was a deep state of silence I achieved it practicing Sakshy Dhyan I’m not debating I just can’t deny my personal experience about this topic but this hasn’t happened to me with other kinds of meditations with Shamatha was different I had thoughts but they didn’t bother me I didn’t identify with them they came and went 😊
Sure there can be times in meditation where we aren’t thinking discursively at all.
@@DougsDharma thanks for getting back to me I know is not easy to run a channel and answer to everyone 😉🙏
the mindfullness of death meditation seems like a verry important part that we forgot to practice. the agoris in hinduism do it (maybe abit too much haha) .
Yes, most people are turned off by it, but it can be very powerful.
@@DougsDharma I see why it can be off-putting especially in western societies where death is taboo. I think that's what makes it important. If you did that here in france people would thing you went crazy.
how can one describe these mind states from an experienced viewpoint without thinking about them while meditating?
That's a good question Sebastião. Usually the way it's explained is that one does so through remembering the state after one has come out of it.
@@DougsDharma thank you, Doug. I appreciate your consideration to my question.
Even we sleep also will have dreams which we cannot control
But... Sir for me... It is impossible to do meditation without thinking about other
Exactly so Sayali, the mind naturally wanders. This is another aspect of meditation that involves thinking.
I once tried long long time ago but failed to. Maybe wasn't in peace and cannot focus.
What I heard(dunno true or false), some beginners may encounter negative things, ghosts? Something like that. Is it true?
I don't know Keith, I think most people don't have much negative come out of meditation except encounters with themselves and their thought-patterns. But that's a negativity that can lead to better results if we practice well.
14:05 This is very Shamanistic don't you think? Things are what they are. That's what it boils down to.
Well it's training a way of looking at the world. I will be having a video on this topic coming out relatively soon. 🙂
@@DougsDharma I'll look for it!
When Gotoma was a teenager, his dad told him to meditate. His response? "I don't jhana!"
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Is it true spirits can enter your body while meditating ?
Well, personally I don't think so.
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Can a person with many troubles thoughts able to meditate? Me
You are supposed to think really really hard about all the thoughts you would have had if you allowed yourself to think during meditation.
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Hi Doug recently I read this book by Osho called" The book of secrets: 112 meditations to discover the mystery within" and it has some good insights about meditation contemplation and concentration but they seem to ambiguous. If possible could you clear that up🙏🙏
Thanks for the question it wankhade, but unfortunately I’m not familiar with Osho’s views, and given the multiple controversies surrounding his guruship I personally would not use him as source material.
Osho said that the Buddha's older brother made him promise that he would never leave him once he joined the Sanga. Then stated that the only time the Buddha asked him for some privacy was when he reunited with his wife. Do you know if that is stated in the Pali cannon?
Not to my knowledge Matthew.
Actually these 112 techniques are not his as it is said that it is a dialogue of Shiva between his female counterpart and believe it or not they work.
Shouldn't we be considered with any spiritual path that leads to awakening. I know about the controversies but Osho appeals to logic that I can't deny.
สาธุ! สาธุ! สาธุ!
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I'm a bit disappointed here with the apologetics for the four elements. It sounds like you might not know how the modern phases of matter or are just skipping over that it invalidates the older models.
Yes thanks, I'm familiar with the phases of matter.
If you haven't yet meditated and you think meditation involves a blank mind, you're in for a big surprise! Hahaha!
😄😄 Yes!!
16:20 :)