She didnt get to taste the icecream. When he asked if she could taste it, her mind couldnt tell her how it tasted; he shattered the illusion and she chose not to tell him.
"Your sickness has infected everything" "Not my baby" "Yes, especially your baby" Wonder if she ever regretted screwing up BoJack with how that scene plays as a parallel
i believe that when joseph says: "you don't want your end up like your mother, don't you?", he is not threatening her with lobotomy, i believe because of the context he did actually believe a lobotomy HELPS the women, not hurts them. He just doesn't care about women's opinions of feelings, that why he sees lobotomy as positive. What he does not see as positive, on the other hand, is women feeling overwhelmed with emotions or depression, THATS the thing he finds disgusting (not the lobotomy). So, when he says that line, what he's trying to say is that Beatrice shouldn't want to end up like her mother: with female hysteria, and depressed. It's not the lobotomy that he's warning about. HOWEVER, beatrice's view is the opposite. She didn't think her mother was "broken" or "wrong" when she was depressed, what she does see wrong is the lobotomy. To sum up, joseph is actually referring to being depressed, but it is beatrice who interpreted the message as a threaten for getting a lobotomy. WHICH MAKES THE SCENE EVEN BETTER, since you get to see in just one piece of dialog both two points of view on the mother's lobotomy issue.
Perfect casting with Matthew Broderick as Joseph Sugarman. He never seemed to emote very well, so him playing a sociopathic smiler just worked so well.
It felt like she tried to give Henrietta what she thought SHE had needed; a hand to hold while she had the baby, and someone to help her give the baby up and keep following her dreams instead of staying tied to Butterscotch and his toxicity. Her methods were pretty much always the worst possible choices anyone could make, but sometimes her intentions were good, at least in her mind.
@@angel-gx7zy butterscotch says that his mother had a diamond on her forehead just like Beatrice, later he says to Henrietta that his mom had hair like Henrietta’s implying he was lying before. however, hollyhock has no blood relation to Beatrice at all, it’s just butterscotch and Henrietta so butterscotch’s statement about his mother’s diamond is actually true
I don't think she got to "taste the ice cream she was never given", man. I think Bojack didn't know that she wasn't allowed ice cream and makes a mistake in his story that briefly pulls Beatrice into a lucid moment where she realizes she's not in Michigan. That look of defeat when she pauses, then that look of resolve when she says "delicious", realizing the way she lived her life has led to this moment and deciding not to let Bojack know she knows what's happening was one of the biggest gut-punches of the series for me... second only to maybe Ruthie... But that's just one interpretation. Very good breakdown, man.
I kinda took it more as she wants so badly to describe the taste but she can’t cause she has no idea what it tastes like, and she has to settle on “delicious.” But I like your take too
That's a great take! I work with dementia pt and one thing that's so hard is getting them to eat because of reduced sense of taste. I hope she was lucid but I think she was fully imagining something she never had like the life she wanted.
In the scene where Beatrice is giving Bojack the painting in his 20s (during the horsing around era), she inhales the entire cigarette whilst remembering all of those flashes. Bojack at some point in the series talks about how he once saw her finish an entire cigarette and one drag, I’m pretty sure this is the moment that was referenced
Beatrice did have ice cream as a child. She had a dreamsicle at the party where her mom, Honey, sang I will always think of you. You can see her nibbling it as she sings. That's why she's so sad when Bojack asks if she can taste the ice cream. The one time she had it is associated with grief and her distressed mother.
everyone mentions the ladder, but NO ONE mentions that the scene itself actually doesn't really add to the story. the whole purpose of that scene is to indirectly tell the viewer that these flashbacks are skewed based on beatrice's perception of things and i think that was a really clever way to do that.
I believe the faces that aren't scratched (her childhood bullies) are the one's she cant forget. The people at her debutante ball are blacked because she was upper class and she didn't even noticed the faces. Henrietta's face is scratched not blacked because she can't forget.
I think blank means she can’t remember and that they weren’t important while scratched out means she doesn’t want to remember them, they hurt too much to think. Btw, I love how the goose bully’s dress is more extravagant than Beatrice’s. Even at her party, she was being one-upped, her bully was still trying to be better than her
It's a very small detail but I love how earlier in the episode Beatrice tells child-Bojack "mommy's tired, tell me a story" And by the end of the episode he sits with her and tells her a story... Love the video!! keep going with the bojack stuff it's really good
8:53 Bojack absolutely internalized her comment about his show not being Ibsen. It's one of the first things we hear him say about Horsin' Around in the entire show, and he puts on one of Ibsen's plays in prison.
You should do the same thing for “The Old Sugarman Place”, because it would definitely blend well with this one. Also the worst part of Joseph and Honey’s scene is the fact he not only blames a lobotomized woman for her not being able to tell Beatrice is sick, but the words “you continually fail to keep your own children alive” when women had so few rights and Crackerjack CHOSE to go to war and yet he still blames her. Grosss!
Henrietta's scream was legitimately one of the most painful moments in television for me. Also, cool take. I wondered if the scratched-off faces are of people she simply doesn't remember. Like, it would add to the coldness of Beatrice if she doesn't even remember Henrietta's face. And it's a great contrast to the warmth she showed as a little girl. Great video.
It's more like she doesn't want to remember. Henrietta was the woman who slept with her husband and gave birth to hollyhock, yet Beatrice showed some kindness and paid for her schooling, and took that baby away. She doesn't want to remember Henrietta.
Something as well with the montage while she takes a drag of her cigarette, this is also a callback to when bojack said he once saw his mother smoke an entire cigarette in a single breath
I like to think the “it’s so…delicious” was her protecting bojack from her harsh childhood memories. Especially with the sugar and lemons so recently gone through in her memory. She was probably thinking like “it’s so fattening” but doesn’t want to be negative in that nice moment. So she lies and says it’s delicious so they can continue to sit in peace instead of arguing (it’s fattening you’re too fat, you drugged my sister etc)
I never realized in Beatrice recognition of Bojack in the nursing home, that she tasted ice cream that she literally never had. Never would I thought a show about a famous horse could be so deep.
Things I noticed Beatrice asking Henrietta to help pack up the painting for her son but the photo in the room is when Bojack is a little boy. The picture didn’t catch up with the time the memory happened. Also when she was annoyed Henrietta was crying, it reminded me of when she told Bojack to never cry. Beatrice’s baby doll has the same dress as Beatrice. That was the death of her childhood. Edit: Spelling
The View from HalfWay Down is my favorite episode but i will completely agree Time's Arrow is BJH storytelling at it's best. This is one of my favorite shows ever because of the details. I work with patients with dementia and to see them live in times past while i have to engae them in the present is challenging and heartbreaking.
Corbin Creamerman being a goat is such a cute detail considering that nervous high strung horses are often paired with goats to help calm them down and keep them relaxed. They could have been a good match. I love the way the writers use animals’ known behaviors and interactions in the characterizations of all the people in this show.
She was actually given ice cream shown twice. Once before she drove the car since her mother was not in the right mind over the sorrow of losing her brother. The other was after her mother's lobotomy. I think it was shown when Bojack was repairing his mother's old family reatreat house. Mashing in the grieves of three deaths. Sara Lynn, the fly's wife, and Crackerjack.
9:42 I actually think that Butterscotch wasn’t lying when he said to her his mom had a diamond like hers, since hollyhock is his biological child and she has a diamond, so beatrice had at least one thing that connected them- one thing 😭
this episode resonates so much with me because... as someone who came from generational trauma myself, we as the youngest generation, thoroughly realize how our parents became bitter is based of their past experiences as well. It's a never ending cycle. It is almost feel unfair to judge and hate Beatrice (or my parents) after knowing what happened to them when they were kids. But at the same time, Bojack (and me) struggles with addiction, self esteem issue, life long depression and many others behavioral and mental disorders because of this.
Beatrice has always reminded me of my own mother, I lived between my Mum and my Grandparents and I saw how evil my Grandmother was and my mother has slowly turned into her over time, the same arrogant condescension and self-superiority. My grandmother used to do this but never judged the number of affairs she had and how she bounced around men, my mother does the same thing and the scary part is, sometimes I see it in myself and how I have judged people in the past. I don't want to be like them but I think that's why this show resonated with me. Generational Trauma. I'm gay and despite pressure from my parents, I have chosen never to have children. This trauma will end with me and my family can never hurt anyone again. The arrow finally stops with me.
I'm in the same boat , accept I had a child , reparenting myself is hard and I didn't find motherhood to be this great, profiling thing in my life . I wonder if it would've been better if I was shown with better kindness or had a mother I could look to and talk to on my own, it was a gut punch when my husband told me you do have an example of what it is to be a mother , that is my ideal version of what I wanted and never gotten , it stings .. also trauma I didn't even know I had and I didn't know what was abuse, plus mental illness surfaced even worse . Alot of people that never known abuse said I should've known . You really don't know those things until you do them , I'm very unhappy but I love my son and he is the reason I finally went no contact . Funny how threats of putting me out on the street with a child and telling me cps is gonna take him away from me , made me finally go , I'll take that chance .. you be lucky see me or my family again . So atleast my side , my son doesn't have his grandparents.. its not being petty , I learned the hard way when it comes to kids - regardless of their relation , if they don't respect you or your boundaries they have no business being in the child's life .. my mother would rather see my child taken from me and honestly would've tried to taken custody of my child just to hurt me . Sad part is my dad enabled her behavior and was quick to shut me up or shut me down to shut her up . My father was my hero , my aunt abandoned me and won't talk to me because she's fighting with my mom , my whole family will reveal my whereabouts to my family - I fear cps will come , my whole family thinks I'm this abusive , lasy neglectful ingrate, and a thief that's keeping my child from them . I left because I didn't wanna clean the house .. its funny how much lies are in that statement . I never stolen anything, replace what was broken , payed for what I could , Cooked and cleaned like a modern day Cinderella and was severely abused when living in that household - I asked 3 months ahead of time to stay their until I get back on my feet so my child wouldn't stay in a cockroach infested apt . I didn't stay to bum off them , they were taking everything my husband made and had me clean up after them like I was there maid and then would turn around and purposely put my child in harmsway and breaking boundaries.. I observed my mother put him in a walker, I specifically told them not to put him in and dragging him .. he was screaming- he didn't like it and she kept laughing and doing it , I said stop it and she blocked me from going to him , I was healing from a c section . Which made it hard to walk .. that was one of the many boundaries she'd break . I came out with a binge eating disorder , my son had a sugar addiction at 2 and refused to drink water , can no longer get his hair cut and behavioral issues I had to actively correct. My mother slowly was turning my son against me when I tried to protect him and she' d bribe him with sugar .. I clean up his diet and sweets are a treat and juice is kool-aid or sugar free Gatorade and I dilute it sometimes
i didn't realize how many creepy background details there are in this episode. definitely one of my favorite episodes, along with the old sugarman place.
11:59 he is not threatening her with a lobotomy. But letting her know what can happen. More like Al Pichino in Devil Adovocate. Where the devil cant make you do anything. But for you nurture and show you all your bad actions.
Except it was a subtle threat that Beatrice would be lobotomized next. If you don't think that he wouldn't do it to Beatrice, then let me point to his wife as an example. At that point he didn't have much to lose, and he could remarry again.
@@seeleunit2000i disagree as he didnt lobotomize honey out of malice, honey BEGGED him for help. And as a result of the time period, its what he thought would help her. We are also remembering this moment from Beatrice’s tainted, traumatized perspective. I think it was more of a warning to not let grief control her, as it did her mother leading her to become a shell of herself- lobotomy or not.
Actually Joseph wasn’t threatening Beatrice when he said “you can’t let your womanly emotions consume you, you don’t wanna end up like your mother” he means that before honey was lobotomized she was really emotional about Cracker Jack passing and had a break down and causing Beatrice and honey to crash and begged Joseph to “fix her” because she doesn’t know how to cope (she was never allowed to) basically Joseph is mostly saying “look what happened to your mom when she let her emotions get the best of her you don’t wanna make a stupid mistake like her (we do see Joseph regret the operation)
I watched this entire season with curiosity and interest... Not long after this season came out, my grandma was diagnosed with Dementia. Helping my parents care for her, and noticing some mannerisms, I thought of this season again. I remember rewatching all of it with a new understanding of dementia, and crying. My grandmother wasn't anything like Beatrice, but my grandmother grew up in the same time frame as Beatrice. This season of Bojack put into perspective how she wouldn't remember who I was exactly, but she knew me. She knew I was someone she loved, and someone who loved her. She knew my name when she saw me, but couldn't seem to remember my name when I was gone (mom told me these details) but she did associate my name with good things. She probably only realized I was her granddaughter a handful of times, but otherwise, I was the caretaker she liked best. I didn't fuss over her and insult her intelligence (all the hired nurses talked to her like she was a toddler and she hated that), I would ask if she needed help rather than just do it, she said yes a surprising amount of times given her personality. My coming meant that lunch was grilled cheese and tomato soup (this was the one thing my mom made sure was only our thing) and my grandmother loved it. I let her watch anything she wanted on TV, and I would do puzzles with her. She passed March of 2023. I miss her a lot, but I have no regrets. The last thing I ever said to her was "I love you"
Also, why isn't Joseph Sugarman's face scratched out, since he's the reason why Beatrice has that messed up way if thinking and her deep trauma, along with him mishandling the grief after Crackerjack's death being the root cause of the poison that affected the Sugarman/Horseman family.
As we see with her describing Joseph to Bojack later, her relationship with Joseph is complicated. We see that he was a monster, but she internalised his abuse and idolised him to a degree.
Because even with everything he did to her Beatrice still loved and respected her father and couldn’t bring herself to fully hate him. It makes sense, he raised her mostly, saved her and Butterscotch from abject poverty by giving Butterscotch a job when she asked. He did a lot of terrible things, but she still saw him as a good father. Bojack hated how his mother treated him, but still extended kindnesses to her; they both suffered under their parents, but part of them still had some appreciation and desire for their approval.
Because I believe it demonstrates her she cannot forget. On the one hand he's responsible for a lot of her pain, but then again he was the one who financially came in through the clutch. He sucked, but he didn't pay the bills for her so... Yeah
an other beautifully made episode is, for me, The View from Halfway Down. That episode is so... I don't know, I was like "ok just another normal episode" but when it ended I started to cry.
"Taking valuable resources from their breast and hips" I can't stand this misogynist creep, what a weird thing to say to your daughter whom isn't a even preteen yet, I know she's 6 or 7 I think its a bit young to give that puberty talk if that was he was attempting and/or to scare her into not reading bc if she to do so she'll become flat.
On the very last point for this video I have to also mention, I think anyways (this is speculation), her pause before answering the question is because of the fact that she never got to taste ice cream as a child, and once she was an adult she'd internalized the lesson from her parents that she shouldn't have it, so she likely hadn't ever had it her whole life. So her hesitance seems to be the fact she doesn't quite know how to describe it for lack of experience, a detail I think was intentionally done that way.
I never found his parents sympathetic. It was unacceptable how they blamed Bojack his entire life for everything. They were the ones who didn’t use fucking protection during this sudden sexual encounter after briefly meeting once before
You can have sympathy for someone who is irredeemable. It's not allowing them to get away with their harm they've done to others, but it is understanding how they came to be, and using that knowledge in how to avoid others following the same footsteps.
4:39 another thing you forgot to add all the cars are the same look and color possibly standing for her not remembering the cars but this does count as a small detail
I like the mirroring of Beatrice never learning amotions just like her father they act the same when people are crying or in pain this is all she ever saw after her mother left and she was to young to learns from her so she only got to learn from a man that never leanrd and was never willing to she fully became him
I think we need to remember that as awful as Joseph no doubt was, these are childhood memories being recalled by a person with dementia. It paints her father probably worse than he was in reality.
Family resemblances Bojack kinda looks like Beatrice’s brother(was butterscotch his name?) Hollyhock looks like Honey, Beatrice’s mother and Bojacks grandmother Beatrice, Bojack and HollyHock have a diamond which comes from Joseph or in butterscotch’s case for HollyHock even someone from further up the family tree, most likely his mother/HollyHocks grandmother. In the dream where Charlotte and Bojack had a baby, Harper looked exactly like Beatrice, which could resemble that Bojack had thought of giving his mother a better childhood before if things were different. Idk why I decided to point this out, I just thought it was fun!
After watching this episode I had the immediate feeling to build a machine, which could travel to fictional worlds and through time so I could get young beatrice, Baby Bojack and baby Hollyhock away from this nastyness (especially Joseph) and bring them to a nice loving environment (for example Hollyhock's adoptive 8 fathers) where they can grow up without worries
06:31 This is interesting, because I'm kinda skeptical that politically conservative people invoked "Liberal" in the now-commonplace derogatory manner back in the late-60s/early 70s. After all, perhaps the biggest party realignment in American history had only happened at the beginning of the 60s.
I think Beatrice is my favourite character in the entire show BECAUSE of how awful she is. How being awful would be forced into her by her father and, unfortunately, she would then hammer that awfulness into her son. Yet, despite how deplorable it was, her taking Hollyhock away from Henrietta might have helped prevent Hollyhock from turning out like any of the Horsemans. She is as much a source of unbelievable pain as she is a sufferer. As a result, I enjoy her episode the most.
I don't think Joseph was threatening her with a lobotomy, I think he was warning her not to end up like her mother who almost killed Bea and herself in a car crash, he was telling her not to become a lunatic like Honey bc Honey lost her son and went into a spiral and Little Bea got her doll burned right in front of her, so he's telling her not to spiral like Honey did, it doesn't make it any less shitty but I don't think his intention was to give her a lobotomy.
BUT SHE DIDNT TATSE THE ICE CREAM THATS THE SADDEST PART, SHE STRUGGLES TO FIND A DESCRIPTION OF HOW ICE CREAMS TATSES BECAUSES IT'S STILL SOEMTHING SHE NEVER LET HERSELF HAVE, GRASPING FOR A TATSE YOUVE NEVER KNOWN, AND SHE FUCKING DIES, i hated Beatrice but on one desrves to lose their mind like that.
Nah, I think it looks like Joseph. Joseph and BoJack have a different color from each other, BoJack is a darker brown. And Joseph doesn't have the white on the nose like BoJack.
It was Bojack, I don't think he noticed and said Butterscotch. She says she's going to give the painting to Bojack and it cuts to her at his funeral with the painting.
8:22 the “D” of the Hollywood sign glitches in because during that time period it wasn’t Hollywoo yet… I know it has nothing to do with the episode in General but I love that detailed that I just now noticed
She didnt get to taste the icecream.
When he asked if she could taste it, her mind couldnt tell her how it tasted; he shattered the illusion and she chose not to tell him.
going to be thinking about that for awhile haha
They both had one last, altruistic and kind moment together. And then Bojack abandoned her in that hellhole.
"Your sickness has infected everything"
"Not my baby"
"Yes, especially your baby"
Wonder if she ever regretted screwing up BoJack with how that scene plays as a parallel
I think that was why she regretted having Bojack in the first place.
i believe that when joseph says: "you don't want your end up like your mother, don't you?", he is not threatening her with lobotomy, i believe because of the context he did actually believe a lobotomy HELPS the women, not hurts them. He just doesn't care about women's opinions of feelings, that why he sees lobotomy as positive. What he does not see as positive, on the other hand, is women feeling overwhelmed with emotions or depression, THATS the thing he finds disgusting (not the lobotomy). So, when he says that line, what he's trying to say is that Beatrice shouldn't want to end up like her mother: with female hysteria, and depressed. It's not the lobotomy that he's warning about.
HOWEVER, beatrice's view is the opposite. She didn't think her mother was "broken" or "wrong" when she was depressed, what she does see wrong is the lobotomy.
To sum up, joseph is actually referring to being depressed, but it is beatrice who interpreted the message as a threaten for getting a lobotomy. WHICH MAKES THE SCENE EVEN BETTER, since you get to see in just one piece of dialog both two points of view on the mother's lobotomy issue.
Perfect casting with Matthew Broderick as Joseph Sugarman. He never seemed to emote very well, so him playing a sociopathic smiler just worked so well.
Hold up, you’re telling me Joseph is voiced by Ferris Bueller?!?
Joseph is voiced by Inspector Gadget???
Joseph is voiced by Simba?!?
Joseph is voiced by Col. Robert Gould Shaw???
Joseph is voiced by Dr. Niko Tatopoulos?!?
An extra point I would add is for the birth scene showing how beatrice had no one, while beatrice atleast held Henriettas hand
It felt like she tried to give Henrietta what she thought SHE had needed; a hand to hold while she had the baby, and someone to help her give the baby up and keep following her dreams instead of staying tied to Butterscotch and his toxicity.
Her methods were pretty much always the worst possible choices anyone could make, but sometimes her intentions were good, at least in her mind.
@@MarchingArrow agreed
You forgot the fact that since Hollyhock isn’t related to Beatrice
Butterscotch’s statement about his mother’s diamond is true
THANK YOU
SOMEONE ELSE NOTICED
wait can you explain?
@@angel-gx7zy butterscotch says that his mother had a diamond on her forehead just like Beatrice, later he says to Henrietta that his mom had hair like Henrietta’s implying he was lying before. however, hollyhock has no blood relation to Beatrice at all, it’s just butterscotch and Henrietta so butterscotch’s statement about his mother’s diamond is actually true
@@SuperTurtle0 because hollyhock has a diamond in her forehead, OH MY GOD I NEVER THOUGHT OF THAAAAT
Wait, that ending... Beatrice didn't taste the ice cream, she pretended to (you can see as she hesitates)
Exactly
I don't think she got to "taste the ice cream she was never given", man. I think Bojack didn't know that she wasn't allowed ice cream and makes a mistake in his story that briefly pulls Beatrice into a lucid moment where she realizes she's not in Michigan. That look of defeat when she pauses, then that look of resolve when she says "delicious", realizing the way she lived her life has led to this moment and deciding not to let Bojack know she knows what's happening was one of the biggest gut-punches of the series for me... second only to maybe Ruthie...
But that's just one interpretation. Very good breakdown, man.
I kinda took it more as she wants so badly to describe the taste but she can’t cause she has no idea what it tastes like, and she has to settle on “delicious.” But I like your take too
That's how I saw it too.
She did have a Popsicle when Honey went through her maniac episode. You can see her licking it.
@@jessicakakern4571 Not vanilla Ice cream though
That's a great take! I work with dementia pt and one thing that's so hard is getting them to eat because of reduced sense of taste. I hope she was lucid but I think she was fully imagining something she never had like the life she wanted.
In the scene where Beatrice is giving Bojack the painting in his 20s (during the horsing around era), she inhales the entire cigarette whilst remembering all of those flashes. Bojack at some point in the series talks about how he once saw her finish an entire cigarette and one drag, I’m pretty sure this is the moment that was referenced
It was free churro I believe!!
Beatrice did have ice cream as a child. She had a dreamsicle at the party where her mom, Honey, sang I will always think of you. You can see her nibbling it as she sings. That's why she's so sad when Bojack asks if she can taste the ice cream. The one time she had it is associated with grief and her distressed mother.
everyone mentions the ladder, but NO ONE mentions that the scene itself actually doesn't really add to the story. the whole purpose of that scene is to indirectly tell the viewer that these flashbacks are skewed based on beatrice's perception of things and i think that was a really clever way to do that.
I believe the faces that aren't scratched (her childhood bullies) are the one's she cant forget. The people at her debutante ball are blacked because she was upper class and she didn't even noticed the faces. Henrietta's face is scratched not blacked because she can't forget.
Exactly
I think blank means she can’t remember and that they weren’t important while scratched out means she doesn’t want to remember them, they hurt too much to think.
Btw, I love how the goose bully’s dress is more extravagant than Beatrice’s. Even at her party, she was being one-upped, her bully was still trying to be better than her
It's a very small detail but I love how earlier in the episode Beatrice tells child-Bojack "mommy's tired, tell me a story"
And by the end of the episode he sits with her and tells her a story...
Love the video!! keep going with the bojack stuff it's really good
8:53 Bojack absolutely internalized her comment about his show not being Ibsen. It's one of the first things we hear him say about Horsin' Around in the entire show, and he puts on one of Ibsen's plays in prison.
You should do the same thing for “The Old Sugarman Place”, because it would definitely blend well with this one.
Also the worst part of Joseph and Honey’s scene is the fact he not only blames a lobotomized woman for her not being able to tell Beatrice is sick, but the words “you continually fail to keep your own children alive” when women had so few rights and Crackerjack CHOSE to go to war and yet he still blames her. Grosss!
Exactly. People keep saying Joseph was a man of his time, but even so he still was a sociopath monster
Henrietta's scream was legitimately one of the most painful moments in television for me.
Also, cool take. I wondered if the scratched-off faces are of people she simply doesn't remember. Like, it would add to the coldness of Beatrice if she doesn't even remember Henrietta's face. And it's a great contrast to the warmth she showed as a little girl. Great video.
It's more like she doesn't want to remember. Henrietta was the woman who slept with her husband and gave birth to hollyhock, yet Beatrice showed some kindness and paid for her schooling, and took that baby away.
She doesn't want to remember Henrietta.
Blank means they’re not important to remember while scratched out means she doesn’t want to think about those people
Something as well with the montage while she takes a drag of her cigarette, this is also a callback to when bojack said he once saw his mother smoke an entire cigarette in a single breath
I like to think the “it’s so…delicious” was her protecting bojack from her harsh childhood memories. Especially with the sugar and lemons so recently gone through in her memory. She was probably thinking like “it’s so fattening” but doesn’t want to be negative in that nice moment. So she lies and says it’s delicious so they can continue to sit in peace instead of arguing (it’s fattening you’re too fat, you drugged my sister etc)
I never realized in Beatrice recognition of Bojack in the nursing home, that she tasted ice cream that she literally never had. Never would I thought a show about a famous horse could be so deep.
Things I noticed
Beatrice asking Henrietta to help pack up the painting for her son but the photo in the room is when Bojack is a little boy. The picture didn’t catch up with the time the memory happened.
Also when she was annoyed Henrietta was crying, it reminded me of when she told Bojack to never cry.
Beatrice’s baby doll has the same dress as Beatrice. That was the death of her childhood.
Edit: Spelling
The View from HalfWay Down is my favorite episode but i will completely agree Time's Arrow is BJH storytelling at it's best. This is one of my favorite shows ever because of the details. I work with patients with dementia and to see them live in times past while i have to engae them in the present is challenging and heartbreaking.
+1 the scene where she smokes the entire cigarette was mentioned earlier in the series by Bojack. Nice follow up
he mentions it in Free Churro
Corbin Creamerman being a goat is such a cute detail considering that nervous high strung horses are often paired with goats to help calm them down and keep them relaxed. They could have been a good match. I love the way the writers use animals’ known behaviors and interactions in the characterizations of all the people in this show.
She was actually given ice cream shown twice. Once before she drove the car since her mother was not in the right mind over the sorrow of losing her brother. The other was after her mother's lobotomy.
I think it was shown when Bojack was repairing his mother's old family reatreat house. Mashing in the grieves of three deaths. Sara Lynn, the fly's wife, and Crackerjack.
Sierra?
9:42 I actually think that Butterscotch wasn’t lying when he said to her his mom had a diamond like hers, since hollyhock is his biological child and she has a diamond, so beatrice had at least one thing that connected them- one thing 😭
this episode resonates so much with me because... as someone who came from generational trauma myself, we as the youngest generation, thoroughly realize how our parents became bitter is based of their past experiences as well. It's a never ending cycle. It is almost feel unfair to judge and hate Beatrice (or my parents) after knowing what happened to them when they were kids. But at the same time, Bojack (and me) struggles with addiction, self esteem issue, life long depression and many others behavioral and mental disorders because of this.
Beatrice has always reminded me of my own mother, I lived between my Mum and my Grandparents and I saw how evil my Grandmother was and my mother has slowly turned into her over time, the same arrogant condescension and self-superiority. My grandmother used to do this but never judged the number of affairs she had and how she bounced around men, my mother does the same thing and the scary part is, sometimes I see it in myself and how I have judged people in the past. I don't want to be like them but I think that's why this show resonated with me. Generational Trauma.
I'm gay and despite pressure from my parents, I have chosen never to have children. This trauma will end with me and my family can never hurt anyone again. The arrow finally stops with me.
I'm in the same boat , accept I had a child , reparenting myself is hard and I didn't find motherhood to be this great, profiling thing in my life . I wonder if it would've been better if I was shown with better kindness or had a mother I could look to and talk to on my own, it was a gut punch when my husband told me you do have an example of what it is to be a mother , that is my ideal version of what I wanted and never gotten , it stings .. also trauma I didn't even know I had and I didn't know what was abuse, plus mental illness surfaced even worse . Alot of people that never known abuse said I should've known . You really don't know those things until you do them , I'm very unhappy but I love my son and he is the reason I finally went no contact . Funny how threats of putting me out on the street with a child and telling me cps is gonna take him away from me , made me finally go , I'll take that chance .. you be lucky see me or my family again . So atleast my side , my son doesn't have his grandparents.. its not being petty , I learned the hard way when it comes to kids - regardless of their relation , if they don't respect you or your boundaries they have no business being in the child's life .. my mother would rather see my child taken from me and honestly would've tried to taken custody of my child just to hurt me . Sad part is my dad enabled her behavior and was quick to shut me up or shut me down to shut her up . My father was my hero , my aunt abandoned me and won't talk to me because she's fighting with my mom , my whole family will reveal my whereabouts to my family - I fear cps will come , my whole family thinks I'm this abusive , lasy neglectful ingrate, and a thief that's keeping my child from them . I left because I didn't wanna clean the house .. its funny how much lies are in that statement . I never stolen anything, replace what was broken , payed for what I could , Cooked and cleaned like a modern day Cinderella and was severely abused when living in that household - I asked 3 months ahead of time to stay their until I get back on my feet so my child wouldn't stay in a cockroach infested apt . I didn't stay to bum off them , they were taking everything my husband made and had me clean up after them like I was there maid and then would turn around and purposely put my child in harmsway and breaking boundaries.. I observed my mother put him in a walker, I specifically told them not to put him in and dragging him .. he was screaming- he didn't like it and she kept laughing and doing it , I said stop it and she blocked me from going to him , I was healing from a c section . Which made it hard to walk .. that was one of the many boundaries she'd break . I came out with a binge eating disorder , my son had a sugar addiction at 2 and refused to drink water , can no longer get his hair cut and behavioral issues I had to actively correct. My mother slowly was turning my son against me when I tried to protect him and she' d bribe him with sugar .. I clean up his diet and sweets are a treat and juice is kool-aid or sugar free Gatorade and I dilute it sometimes
i didn't realize how many creepy background details there are in this episode. definitely one of my favorite episodes, along with the old sugarman place.
11:59 he is not threatening her with a lobotomy. But letting her know what can happen. More like Al Pichino in Devil Adovocate. Where the devil cant make you do anything. But for you nurture and show you all your bad actions.
Except it was a subtle threat that Beatrice would be lobotomized next. If you don't think that he wouldn't do it to Beatrice, then let me point to his wife as an example.
At that point he didn't have much to lose, and he could remarry again.
@@seeleunit2000i disagree as he didnt lobotomize honey out of malice, honey BEGGED him for help. And as a result of the time period, its what he thought would help her. We are also remembering this moment from Beatrice’s tainted, traumatized perspective. I think it was more of a warning to not let grief control her, as it did her mother leading her to become a shell of herself- lobotomy or not.
Actually Joseph wasn’t threatening Beatrice when he said “you can’t let your womanly emotions consume you, you don’t wanna end up like your mother” he means that before honey was lobotomized she was really emotional about Cracker Jack passing and had a break down and causing Beatrice and honey to crash and begged Joseph to “fix her” because she doesn’t know how to cope (she was never allowed to) basically Joseph is mostly saying “look what happened to your mom when she let her emotions get the best of her you don’t wanna make a stupid mistake like her (we do see Joseph regret the operation)
I watched this entire season with curiosity and interest... Not long after this season came out, my grandma was diagnosed with Dementia. Helping my parents care for her, and noticing some mannerisms, I thought of this season again.
I remember rewatching all of it with a new understanding of dementia, and crying.
My grandmother wasn't anything like Beatrice, but my grandmother grew up in the same time frame as Beatrice.
This season of Bojack put into perspective how she wouldn't remember who I was exactly, but she knew me. She knew I was someone she loved, and someone who loved her. She knew my name when she saw me, but couldn't seem to remember my name when I was gone (mom told me these details) but she did associate my name with good things. She probably only realized I was her granddaughter a handful of times, but otherwise, I was the caretaker she liked best. I didn't fuss over her and insult her intelligence (all the hired nurses talked to her like she was a toddler and she hated that), I would ask if she needed help rather than just do it, she said yes a surprising amount of times given her personality. My coming meant that lunch was grilled cheese and tomato soup (this was the one thing my mom made sure was only our thing) and my grandmother loved it. I let her watch anything she wanted on TV, and I would do puzzles with her.
She passed March of 2023. I miss her a lot, but I have no regrets. The last thing I ever said to her was "I love you"
Also, why isn't Joseph Sugarman's face scratched out, since he's the reason why Beatrice has that messed up way if thinking and her deep trauma, along with him mishandling the grief after Crackerjack's death being the root cause of the poison that affected the Sugarman/Horseman family.
As we see with her describing Joseph to Bojack later, her relationship with Joseph is complicated. We see that he was a monster, but she internalised his abuse and idolised him to a degree.
Because even with everything he did to her Beatrice still loved and respected her father and couldn’t bring herself to fully hate him. It makes sense, he raised her mostly, saved her and Butterscotch from abject poverty by giving Butterscotch a job when she asked. He did a lot of terrible things, but she still saw him as a good father. Bojack hated how his mother treated him, but still extended kindnesses to her; they both suffered under their parents, but part of them still had some appreciation and desire for their approval.
Reveries hit the nail on the head. Honestly I don’t think she really understood that it was her father’s fault her mother became… what she did.
Because I believe it demonstrates her she cannot forget. On the one hand he's responsible for a lot of her pain, but then again he was the one who financially came in through the clutch.
He sucked, but he didn't pay the bills for her so... Yeah
BoJack painting a picture of peace and comfort to Beatrice in the end feels like a warm blanket being wrapped around me I love his voice actor
an other beautifully made episode is, for me, The View from Halfway Down. That episode is so... I don't know, I was like "ok just another normal episode" but when it ended I started to cry.
The way i saw it, the parallel between Joseph burning her doll, and Beatrice taking Hollyhock away, was that it was a cruel yet necessary action.
this show was literally a masterpiece and I don't think anyone will ever change my mind
"Taking valuable resources from their breast and hips"
I can't stand this misogynist creep, what a weird thing to say to your daughter whom isn't a even preteen yet, I know she's 6 or 7 I think its a bit young to give that puberty talk if that was he was attempting and/or to scare her into not reading bc if she to do so she'll become flat.
80 points = she died at 80 years old
I think Butterscotch was (incidentally) telling the truth about his mother's diamond. Hollyhock didn't get hers from Henrietta, right?
Can't wait for this
Definitely the best episode of the series
He really said its better to have her throat swollen shut in order to lose weight
He was a terrible man and father
On the very last point for this video I have to also mention, I think anyways (this is speculation), her pause before answering the question is because of the fact that she never got to taste ice cream as a child, and once she was an adult she'd internalized the lesson from her parents that she shouldn't have it, so she likely hadn't ever had it her whole life. So her hesitance seems to be the fact she doesn't quite know how to describe it for lack of experience, a detail I think was intentionally done that way.
Beatrice scratches out servants faces because she doesn't see them as people.
Also Beatrice struggles when she has empathy and puts herself in their shoes. Probably why there are glitches.
We see servants with regular blank faces at another point in the story, so this is false. She just doesn’t want to remember Henrietta
I never found his parents sympathetic. It was unacceptable how they blamed Bojack his entire life for everything. They were the ones who didn’t use fucking protection during this sudden sexual encounter after briefly meeting once before
You can have sympathy for someone who is irredeemable. It's not allowing them to get away with their harm they've done to others, but it is understanding how they came to be, and using that knowledge in how to avoid others following the same footsteps.
That sound cue from point 37 is a callback to the burning babydoll scene. edit: er, call forward, I guess
Joseph: Lobotomizes his wife
Honey: Can’t think right
Joseph: Shocked Pikachu Face
the ice cream 😭
4:39 another thing you forgot to add all the cars are the same look
and color possibly standing for her not remembering the cars but
this does count as a small detail
I like the mirroring of Beatrice never learning amotions just like her father they act the same when people are crying or in pain this is all she ever saw after her mother left and she was to young to learns from her so she only got to learn from a man that never leanrd and was never willing to she fully became him
I think we need to remember that as awful as Joseph no doubt was, these are childhood memories being recalled by a person with dementia. It paints her father probably worse than he was in reality.
Family resemblances
Bojack kinda looks like Beatrice’s brother(was butterscotch his name?)
Hollyhock looks like Honey, Beatrice’s mother and Bojacks grandmother
Beatrice, Bojack and HollyHock have a diamond which comes from Joseph or in butterscotch’s case for HollyHock even someone from further up the family tree, most likely his mother/HollyHocks grandmother.
In the dream where Charlotte and Bojack had a baby, Harper looked exactly like Beatrice, which could resemble that Bojack had thought of giving his mother a better childhood before if things were different.
Idk why I decided to point this out, I just thought it was fun!
My favorite episode fr
After watching this episode I had the immediate feeling to build a machine, which could travel to fictional worlds and through time so I could get young beatrice, Baby Bojack and baby Hollyhock away from this nastyness (especially Joseph) and bring them to a nice loving environment (for example Hollyhock's adoptive 8 fathers) where they can grow up without worries
Woo! Bojack content ♥
My favorite episode fs
Reason 42 the Hollywood sign starts as “Hollywoo “ didn’t notice until this video
Underrated
06:31 This is interesting, because I'm kinda skeptical that politically conservative people invoked "Liberal" in the now-commonplace derogatory manner back in the late-60s/early 70s. After all, perhaps the biggest party realignment in American history had only happened at the beginning of the 60s.
I think Beatrice is my favourite character in the entire show BECAUSE of how awful she is. How being awful would be forced into her by her father and, unfortunately, she would then hammer that awfulness into her son. Yet, despite how deplorable it was, her taking Hollyhock away from Henrietta might have helped prevent Hollyhock from turning out like any of the Horsemans.
She is as much a source of unbelievable pain as she is a sufferer. As a result, I enjoy her episode the most.
Can you please do the episode "That's Too Much, Man!" ? It's one of my favs!
PosiTVty would be great at animation sins …Ding *❤
I don't think Joseph was threatening her with a lobotomy, I think he was warning her not to end up like her mother who almost killed Bea and herself in a car crash, he was telling her not to become a lunatic like Honey bc Honey lost her son and went into a spiral and Little Bea got her doll burned right in front of her, so he's telling her not to spiral like Honey did, it doesn't make it any less shitty but I don't think his intention was to give her a lobotomy.
I think sadly she actually does not know how ice-cream tastes and so she knows that either this bitnor the entire scenery is not true.
I mean, I don’t think Bowjack’s dad represents the morality of the time, since he’s supposed to be a rebel character.
BUT SHE DIDNT TATSE THE ICE CREAM THATS THE SADDEST PART, SHE STRUGGLES TO FIND A DESCRIPTION OF HOW ICE CREAMS TATSES BECAUSES IT'S STILL SOEMTHING SHE NEVER LET HERSELF HAVE, GRASPING FOR A TATSE YOUVE NEVER KNOWN, AND SHE FUCKING DIES, i hated Beatrice but on one desrves to lose their mind like that.
i s2g u sound like Rutabaga 😭
Waiiit in the scene of josephs funeral , joseph doesnt look right , it just looks like a very old bojack
Nah, I think it looks like Joseph. Joseph and BoJack have a different color from each other, BoJack is a darker brown. And Joseph doesn't have the white on the nose like BoJack.
It was Bojack, I don't think he noticed and said Butterscotch. She says she's going to give the painting to Bojack and it cuts to her at his funeral with the painting.
8:22 the “D” of the Hollywood sign glitches in because during that time period it wasn’t Hollywoo yet… I know it has nothing to do with the episode in General but I love that detailed that I just now noticed