Therapist Reacts to KYLO REN
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- Опубліковано 27 вер 2024
- Kylo Ren might be scarier than Darth Vader, and here's why:
He lacks emotional control, especially at the start of the trilogy.
Licensed therapist Jonathan Decker and filmmaker Alan Seawright walk through Kylo Ren's (played spectacularly by Adam Driver) journey back to the light and redemption, discussing some of the trauma, issues, and relationships that led him down that path to the dark side and back. From killing his father Han Solo and other father figures (Snoke and Luke Skywalker - well, at least trying to kill Luke), to sparing Leia, to whatever his complicated relationship is with Rey... these relationships are at the heart of this villain's psychology, or pathology.
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Written by: Megan Seawright, Jonathan Decker and Alan Seawright
Produced by: Jonathan Decker, Megan Seawright & Alan Seawright
Edited by: Alan Seawright
Director of Photography: Bradley Olsen
English Transcription by: Anna Preis
Hey everybody. I just had an idea... We really REALLY love John Oliver. Like... REALLY. So how's about you all tweet at him to convince him to come on our show? He could film from his blank void. We could film in our movie cave. It would be awkward, but... sexy?
Anyways. Let's do that. Let's get John Oliver on Cinema Therapy!
heck yes! :D
I also think another great thing about Rey's and Kylo's connection in TLJ. Is that she is seen doubting herself for a vast majority of the movie. She goes to Luke so he can save the galaxy, she goes to Kylo to turn him back to Ben so HE can save the galaxy. In her mind it has to be a Skywalker, it can't be her, she is nobody from nowhere. She is trying to pass off the hero roll to anyone but herself, until she is forced to take up the mantle at the end. It is actually what made the idea of her parents being nobodies so good. Lot's of issues with Rise, but at least they pull off some things well.
Yes! Great idea! One suggestion: you can suggest a hashtag, like "#johnoliver2cinematherapy" or something, so it is much easier to reach out for him.
There's John Oliver's personal Twitter @iamjohnoliver and Last Week Tonight's Twitter @lastweektonight
Mention both to maximize notices
THAT would be amazing!
It's hard for me to focus because I can't stop thinking about how you guys switched seats haha
Right? That's the first thing I noticed. And I kept asking why the change :D
I thought I was the only one that noticed!
First thing I noticed! It's a mental experiment on us...
SAME! Haha
Yes!!! Why have they done this? :O
"Ben is lonely, he feels lonely" well, he is a Solo after all
Groan!
wah wah take an angry upvote
Ugh...
XD beautiful
Theres always that one person...😒
😂
"He is my favorite villain that also acts like my 5 year old son."
Nailed it.
You’re the king bro😅
Hi son: “The Supreme Leader is dead!”
The father: “All spoil the Supreme Leader!”
Yup. I worked with early childhood aged kids so when I first saw Kylo ren in these movies, I immediately penned him as an oversized preschooler
Even adults go ballistic some time.
One observation I've seen is that Kylo Ren is representation for all of the Angry Fans™ in the fandom who get upset when things in canon don't go the way they want them to.
Do we notice that Luke uses Han's words? "Se ya around, kid."
good catch
There's a lot of fan servicey things in the sequel trilogy. Almost too much. Are there phrases that the new characters said that are their own and are memorable? Not being snide, but I'm wondering because I've only seen each of the films once. Maybe it's just the SW trope that characters have to say things in every iteration. "I've got a bad feeling about this", sort of thing... Maybe Luke could have used another Han line there, "Then I'll see you in hell! Hya!" :p
@@artboymoy I think "See you around kiddo." was a choice Rian Johnson made to give an arc through Episode IX, with Luke reappearing to Kylo, but who knows. I really liked Episode VIII, I think it was one of the best stand alone Star Wars movies, but it didn't give a lot of material for a sequel and what there was got buried by J.J. Abrams.
question
But I'd do cheeky things like:
Character, maybe Maz, maybe not: A good question for another time.
Response: You're never going to tell me, are you?
Character: No.
@@0urmunchk1n I really want to see what an episode 9 genuinely following the plot threads that episode 8 set up.... Of course I'd also like to see an episode 8 genuinely following the plot threads that episode 7 set up
Read this comment 5 seconds before the part of this video. Timing!
A friend of mine said this about Kylo Ren after seeing The Force Awakens: "He's a good guy who is trying so damn hard to be the bad guy that he isn't." And there is so much truth in that in EVERYTHING Kylo does. He hides behind a mask, wears outfits similar to his grandfather, uses his anger like a raging wildfire where Vader's was tempered and focused like a blowtorch, and his lightsaber hilt is PAINTED black over the silver, the darkness hiding the true light within. The symbolism is there and it's not subtle. Star Wars is NOT subtle. Never has been. There are subtleties TO it, but overall it is not subtle. And none of them are perfect. Not even the Original Trilogy. The Sequel Trilogy has weak writing and weak story, but what carries it are the themes, the music, and most of all, the performances.
As a die-hard Star Wars fans of the original and sequel trilogies, I can 100 percent agree with this statement. Yes, the sequel trilogies aren’t perfect. No, that doesn’t mean they’re any less loved.
They were great except the 9th one. If they had just went with the bold decisions from 8 and made an overall more positive movie that doesn't try to retcon the stuff that upset people, we'd have an awesome trilogy with some controversy and a plot hole here and there to fill with a spinoff, as it has always been. Now the entire franchise ends with bummer
@@adrian2992 THIS IS WHAT IVE BEEN TRYING TO SAY. The sequels with the exception of the 9th are very good movies both as movies themselves and as Star Wars films. They are definitely a little rough around the edges, but quite a bit of Star Wars media was already like that, the prequels and Return of the Jedi are great examples of that. And nowadays those movies are praised and respected greatly among most fans including myself. People used to hate the prequels until they started to notice the brilliant detail and storytelling tropes. The sequels portray the same thing, but most people haven't recognized that yet. Give it at least a decade, and the sequels will be far more loved than they are right now.
YES! EXACTLY!
You know what buggers me the most? The fencing part. It is garbage, sadly (taking about Rey and Kylo). Why couldn't they just hire HEMA practicioners to be mentors? This would be much better. It's not a hard thing, really.
Kylo Ren on paper seems like a villain that one should really hate, especially after what happened to Han. But Adam Driver makes so many interesting choices with the character and brings out a lot of multifaceted emotions with what he's going through, that he ends up being my favorite character to watch in the new trilogy.
@@Breonnick I think watching this channel should teach you that therapy is actually nothing to be ashamed of in reality. I've got it, he's got it, your mom's probably got it. Join the club.
@@Breonnick a lot of actors never watched their own movies. Even Daniel Radcliffe and Rupert Grint only started to watch the Harry Potter movies recently.
@@Breonnick If that's your only reason for why he needs therapy, then...he really doesn't. It's fine if you don't watch your movies.
@@Breonnick In my opinion his perfectionist phobia of watching his own work is also based on a very wise sense that if he reviewed his own work, he'd start to be too self-conscious as an actor. His acting is so intuitive, so instinctive, so unedited and natural, that any more self-scrutiny on his part would probably be detrimental.
Some of the best directors he's worked with applaud his decision as they see it giving him more creative freedom.
@@cosmicmuffin322 he himself said this
I felt so bad for Chewy in the sequel movies, everyone he loves dies. His entire found family wiped out.
if only they had done ANYTHING with that
You didn’t have to point that out and HURT ME SO-🥺😭😭😭😭
When Wookies hang out with humans they kinda sign up for it, they live like 400 years.
@@gabethyrubenstein7984 He did mourn Leia's death more then he did Han's...
The whole point of the Life debt... it is just thrown aside... one of many things i criticese the Disney Star Wars Movies on.
I just hope he finally gets to return to Kashyyk and retire with his family after Ep 9
I also think part of Kylo's reaction to realizing Luke isn't there is the realization that his uncle didn't even come to face him in person. Not just that he was outsmarted with different tactics, but the fact that his uncle didn't think he was important or worthy enough to actually show up in person when he has been constantly abandoned his entire life by people he loved and respected was a lot. Like I have done all of this, come this far, pushed as far as I could away from the people who hurt me and you still don't respect me or take me seriously. And it turned out you didn't need to because you still won.
From that point, it only adds to why Luke isn’t characterized good here, and you see why Mark hates it
Exactly it's was upsetting.. all like need to do was to show up and dual and make it like matter .. I think luke was the one whom triggered Kylo Ren to the dark side when Luke wanted to stab Ben.
@@ninjanibba4259 Yeah, it doesn't make sense because Luke with Vader was like: I sense the Light in this galactic mass murderer.
Oh, my nephew is being influenced by the Dark Side but kept himself in check even if he was abandoned by his parents and compared to freaking war heroes? No, I'll kill him.
What. The. Fuck. Luke?!
Ben could have been a hero and Rey the villain, making her question Snoke and Palpatine and she making him question how good he truly is even for his anger issues and bitterness and in my opinion it would have been far better.
@@vyper5957 but luke wasn’t actually gonna kill him. he just considered it for a second and kylo woke up at the wrong time. remember, we see the scene from both of their pov’s and it’s very different in each
I completely agree that this isn't Luke, like...even that last line "see you around kid" that's a han solo line, not a luke line. They didn't know what they were doing with him I feel, and they just used him for a plot device (and just in general these films piss me off for many reasons especially what they did to Mark Hamill like fuck them, they fucked up big time with this trilogy)...BUT I do feel that the thing that maybe got to Kylo with that scene is that compared to when he possibly last saw Luke, where from his POV Luke was trying to kill an innocent boy in his sleep, this time Luke refused to. If everything happened the way Kylo thought it happened, Luke should have been there to murder him and save all those people, but like they said in the video, it was Lukes non violent approach, his decision to not even be there physically to take away the option of kill or be killed. It is a bit humiliating for Kylo, almost like Luke was distracting the toddler while everyone got to safety, but really he was firstly taking away Kylos control, and secondly protecting him by not allowing himself to be killed or to harm Kylo.
The moment when Han touches Ben's cheek after already being impaled...
To me, that moment said this: "No. Nothing you do will ever make me stop loving you."
That squeezed my heart
Now that you say that it reminded me of Naruto Shippuden when Itachi had apologize to Sasuke before he died. Basically at the moment the killed character still showing compassionate to the other character. Even though they were on the path of killing said character to achieve their own personal goals
❤️
Yes I totally agree it was unconditional love from father to son and to me it was forgiveness. Han wanted him to know he forgave him as soon as he did it.
@@homeschoolhomelife That's exactly what I felt. Just adoration from a father, unconditional love, and forgiveness.
One of my favorite viewpoints on Kylo is that he started out wanting to finish what Vader started, but never did so until he healed Rey. In doing so he was able to save her from dying, the very thing that caused Anakin to turn to the dark side. He did so not out of selfish desire, but from a place of selflessness and love, the epitome of the light side of the force.
Yes I realized that too! That's why I found the theory that Ben and rey were anakin and padme reincarnated, as all Anakin wanted was the ability to save his wife, and ben was able to do that. (Could also explain why Anakin's force ghost doesn't appear in the movies though luke in books references communicating with his father's ghost) Theory aside, I really liked the poetic reference to the prequels in regards to Anakin's true goal. If Anakin was watching that happen, I'm sure he'd be extremely proud of his grandson doing what he couldn't; save the one her loved, even at the cost of his life.
Oh my gosh I never thought of this - wow 🥺
kylo was also a pawn of the emperor.
@@radioactive_sunflowerz2450 Love this xxxx
Anakin was driven by a selfless desire to protect those he cared for as well.
I agree with all of this, except the one thing at the end, about Kylo Ren's "Redemption = Death" trope being justified. It's almost always cliche. It worked better for Vader, but this one just felt contrived. Dying is easy. Living is hard. Him living makes for a better story.
100% agree with this
Yes! Rey should have died and Kylo live. That would have been the better ending without that stupid Romeo and Juliet death switcheroo.
Yes.
There was almost no point doing the whole Ben Solo Kylo Ren tug of war/redemption arc just to have it all be for Rey's sake, a blatant replay of Darth Vader/Luke Skywalker
I really like the concept of Ben actually finishing what Anakin started, which is to save the one you love using the light side. It would've been a very interesting ending if Ben survived for sure. But I think it would've been a bad ending if Rey died (At least if it's not a good set up for her death). I also don't think Ben would've wanted to live if Rey died. She's the only one that understands him.
Ok, since we’re admiring Adam Driver’s performance, I’m very surprised that his “please” wasn’t addressed. That is such an incredible moment.
Agreed. As well as the "thank you" to Han. A moment of pure horror that strikes me every time I watch it. Such an incredibly dedicated, intuitive, empathetic actor.
But he doesn't look at all like the son of Han and Leia.
@@marcpeterson5115 But he does. Leia's hair colour, Anakin's hair and Han's face (with much more imperfections mind you)...
@@kungolaf4499 A lot taller? Black, wavy hair? Thick lips? You're reaching.
@@marcpeterson5115 You do know that qualities may be hidden or recessive for multiple generations - especially when they are polygenic. Leia had black hair but Anakin had wavy hair. Ben had both. I can't comment on the thick lips but I do know that the smallest of midgets can produce a normal sized child or even a 2 meter giant. I know a thirteen year old who's parents are normal sized yet they are already taller than me (178cm)...
Something that was maybe overlooked: when Luke defeats Kylo and Kylo puts the blade of his saber in Luke, Luke says "See ya around kid." That's something Han would say, so not only is Kylo bested in his knowledge of the Force, but that moment is capped by his father's own words...just a thought...
I disagree with Disney's choice to make Ben sacrifice himself and die. It would have been a far better lesson to show he survived and had to live with his actions. How he coped with them and what he did to atone for his sins. Other than that, I loved his character.
Disney has a looooong history of killing off its villains rather than trying to deal with them, it's just easier :/ and lazy.
@@Tracy-xe9zu to be fair with Disney Villains a lot of them are not as complex as Kylo Ren, or even capable of acknowledging their flaws. I highly doubt the animated Malificient, or Jafar, or the Evil Queen would have the same moment of reflection or realization that Kylo had. Even a more complex Disney villain like Frollo would be hard to pull of a convincing redemption with the way he was portrayed
@@johnmartin4119 at least live action Malificient got a redemption arc and a fleshed out storyline. if only Disney would have learned from that and taken aspects of her to make Kylo better.
Not just Disney, it is a very common trope that when a major villains gets redeemed, it is either through heroic sacrifice or immediately followed by heroic sacrifice, because in most cases, living with their actions and atoning for their sins ins't possible in a satisfying way, because there is no way that people would be OK with that. Both Kylo and Darth Vader were the galaxy's biggest mass murderers of their time. Would anyone except Luke and Rey really have been cool with just letting them join team rebellion and forgive them because they saved one person and said that they were really deeply sorry and wanted to be good now? They both deserved the worst punishment that the new order could possibly dish out a million times (be it the death penalty or be it being locked up for the rest of their life) and that one good deed and much too late change of heart won't change that.
Just imagine Vader had not died and Luke brought him back with him to Endor. I don't think Leia would be like: "Oh, hi Dad, so glad to have you back. I'm still a little bit grumpy because of the whole mess of you torturing me and having my whole crew executed and blowing up my home planet and killing my adoptive parents together with billions of other people and all that, but I guess since you showed that you are a really good guy because you decided last minute that you'd rather not let your boss torture your son to death, everything is fine now and I can forgive you. Also, since you just backstabbed your master (again!), you clearly proved that you are trustworthy, so welcome to the team." ;-)
No, a villain like Vader or Kylo Ren can only ever be forgiven BECAUSE they already paid for their sins with giving their life and they are not around anymore where the people they oppressed and tortured would have to live with them.
Indeed. It just felt like a lazy retread of the original storyline, with Vader. "Evil guy that is really a brainwashed good guy has to die to redeem himself." Such lazy storytelling. They had interesting characters, but did nothing interesting with them at all.
Alan and Jonathan in their planning meeting...
"Do we wanna blow up the comment section?"
"I'm listening.."
"Let's switch seats."
HAHAHA!
Dangit! They figured out our whole thing!
Now switch the seating to a different configuration perhaps? (Joke)
That's not how you blow up a comments section, this is: I liked the newest three movies better than the other two trilogies.
The first video I saw where that happened, I knew it had to have been on purpose because of course they would know the '180 rule'.
@@CoffeeNCardio Aww, you poor dear, throwing a grenade and then nothing happened. Here's a comment for you lol.
Tbh Episode II kind of killed any investment I had in the entire franchise (The Last Jedi *very* briefly resuscitated it, but then Han Solo got killed and it went back to being dead), so now I just sit back and laugh at the various outrage. 😅
25:13 I hate that I didn't realize until just now that this exchange: "Dad..." "I know" was meant to mirror Han's schtick with Leia: "I love you" "I know". Even though Ben is choking on the words, the feeling of "Dad, I love you" is still there.
😭😭😭🤦🏻♀️ me too
It is also the first and so far AFAIK only time "dad" is used in Star Wars. It makes it so much more personal then just "father" IMO.
Me too! 🥺
I never noticed that! Crap. I'm not crying, you're crying.
That was the only time in SW that I actually cried. In the entire saga... that "dad" undos me every time.
Also - I think Rey’s comment that she “did want to take Ben’s hand” also had a big impact on Kylo - he hears she wanted Ben, not Kylo, who he viewed as the stronger of the two. IMO
It’s true. His bond with Rey was a weakness for him
Now I want a "Therapist Reacts to Severus Snape" :D
Me too! Any of the characters would be great.
Yes! The psychology is so fascinating with Snape, like how he doesn't like harry due to him subconsciously associating him with James and how that psychologically triggers repressed trauma from being bullied in school. Also explains why he joined the death eaters (to avoid being bullied, join the bullies or people strong enough to protect you)
Yesss
OMG YES!!!!
OMG YES
It’s so refreshing hearing people talk substantially about the new films / characters instead of blatantly talking them down. I’m not the biggest fan of the either, but the cast is so amazingly talented and the chemistry between them is so good. Lovely seeing people appreciating Driver’s work here and look deeply into kylo ren
The acting is really great, and the visuals are stunning. The story is a mesd so you can still enjoy it if you 'turn off your brain'.
I havent watched all the new movies, just The Force Awakens, mainly because Im always behind on my movie backlog. I like Kylo Ren a lot, though. I also like Anakin a lot. Kylo is a great independent character. Adam Driver is a great actor!
And series-wise, redemption through compassion is a sentiment I subscribe to. My only ick is that both Kylo and Anakin died through actions made trying to redeem themselves. I can relate to feeling neglected, abandoned, and lonely. I was never close to selfharm, which I honestly think is because of the way these movies impacted me, and I love that both Kylo and Anakin as characters got the agency to choose to change and to fight for the chance to redeem themselves, and that it was their own choice to.
I would have liked it a lot more if they also found a desire to live. I dont personally feel their deaths were purely noble, even if I see the reasoning for it. Living is harder than death. I attached very hard to both characters, so I wish for them what I want for myself, yknow? But thats what fanfiction is for, I guess. I know that they did awful things and needed to be accountable. I just dont feel comfortable with the implication of death and redemption being so closely related.
There are many things I like that just weren’t stitched together well, I think. It is a bit of a mess, but there are things I still like about the new movies.
@@theisjepsen22 Story in Star Wars was never really that good.
If only the writers were nearly as talented... Or even gave a s***.
I do have to disagree about how scary Kylo Ren is - Kylo's like fire. Unstable, destructive, but always needs something to burn - fuel, if you will. Vader, on the other hand, is like ice - kills all life and cannot be stopped (and, on another note, one could say Vader is 'frozen in grief').
Both are terrifying, but the fact Vader is so calm, yet so dangerous, is *much* more scary...
p.s. Alan, the fact you are so emotionally invested in films is genuinely so heart-warming.
The point is actually that you know exactly what to do to not piss off Darth Vader. Kylo is too volatile to be that predictable.
@@futurestoryteller Very good point! I hadn't considered that - very true
Agreed. On all counts
@@Rougeification That's the thing, he's unstable, to the point that basically no one is at the wheel making calm conscious decisions. He's driven by emotion, especially rage. Vader is driven by hatred, a calm calculated abhorrence of many, a careful plan of death. And that's terrifying in it's own way, it's hard to maneuver someone calculated. But someone uncalculated is just as futurestoryteller said, they're unpredictable, volatile, completely free of reason and planning. It's just rage and reaction.
His character is scary on paper, but to me he just comes across as a teenager with temper tantrums.
A side note on self harm that is worthwhile touching on: pain releases endorphins, which helps the body to manage physical pain, stress, and emotional duress. Some bodies release more of these endorphins than others, and some bodies are more receptive to those endorphins. It's a complicated response to often complicated stimuli (abuses, stresses, habits, and more).
This is gonna be really hard for me to watch. I know people like to interpret Kylo Ren very literally, but I saw a lot of my experience as a PTSD survivor reflected in that character, and identified a little too hard with the story. I was really gutted by how it ended, and I internalized some really insidious messaging about how our society views redemption, suffering, and the value of life. I trust this channel to approach any story with sensitivity, but I still might need to sit this one out. 🖤
Edit: I watched it bc I’m weak. Thank you guys for being compassionate. Now I need to go blast some Linkin Park and have a good cry 🙃
I sat out Schindler's List because I know I don't have that emotional energy right now. Good for you for knowing your limits.
I agree. I didn't like the lack of grace and mercy shown towards Ben. There are a lot of characters in stories that, if they die, I may not like it but I understand why it was done. Ben's ending made no sense to me. He didn't deserve that.
JJerrio literally killed all the "hope" in the Skywalker Universe.
@@misslady3 I feel the same way. I try to look at how the creators looked at it though and I suppose, even though I don't like it, his whole storyline was purely meant to be a tragedy. And we all know how tragedies end. At least it stayed faithful to that genre, right? Doesn't make it right, but I understand why they did what they did to this character. :(
@Jill St. Clair DUDE I know exactly how you feel. I had this show where I identified with a gray character, then they villanised her and victimised her abusers and I got all self-harmy and suicidal because of it, and I'm still avoiding that fandom like it's the plague.
Fiction doesn't represent our society completely. I sincerely hope you realise one day that society does indeed value redemption and suffering, and you find hope in a better character again. Star Wars will always be a sore spot for you but I hope you heal from it. Don't take it upon yourself. Your trauma and suffering matters, and the people who matter will appreciate your redemption.
Massive, massive MASSIVE praise to Harrison Ford played Han's death and ups and downs of the sequel trilogy aside, Adam Driver captured exactly what he needed to for this kind of villain
It's interesting to me when you say Rey challenged Kylo's world when she showed compassion. It reminded me of a story I read in Humans of New York, where an elderly man said his dad was a torturer for Hitler or Mussolini. This man went on to say his dad was abusive in every possible way at home too, but his grandparents helped raise this man. So this man said one day he went and hugged his father, and his father started shaking. The last sentence in that story has stayed with me this whole time. "He wanted to love, and he wanted to be loved, but he didn't know how."
I freaking love humans of new York
Omg I follow HONY as well but never saw that story
Wow I didn't know Humans of New York. Thank you for sharing this!
when you guys mentioned how attractive adam driver is i was so close to commenting 'john oliver agrees wholeheartedly' but y'all beat me to it and i sincerely thank you
I may have become a tiny bit obsessed with Adam Driver after seeing him in Star Wars. What a huge actor (literally) and what a man!
Same.. my aunt found his so unattractive.. and I'm like yeah so what still sexy😂
He's magnificent
Same!
It's also hinted at in the films and confirmed in books and comics that Han essentially wasn't there in person for Ben as he and Leia sent him off to Luke pretty young to be trained. Then he's never told the truth of his lineage by his family. He learns about Anakin being Vader from a public smear campaign that was being made again Leia by a political rival, also how the rest of the galaxy learned the truth.
So all that backstory and it’s not in the movies they really messed up his story. He’s a prince, son of a smuggler, but they only care about is his tie to Darth Vader
@@SarifaXionic I guess if that's how you want to look at it. I was just adding this stuff as complimentary stuff on top of the trauma we already know he must be feeling. He's a legacy child in all ways. His father, mother, uncle, and grandfather are all legends that he has to compete with and the movies I thought made clear how he felt each of them failed him. I just like that the books and comics add to it. Doesn't make one medium better or worse than the other.
@@SarifaXionic That’s how Star Wars works. The Clone Wars expanded and explained so much from the prequels. Rogue One explained the open exhaust port on the Death Star. We get more info to retroactively flesh out the story. It largely depends on your mindset going in.
@@SarifaXionic to sum it up in what Lucas himself learned, you can only fit so much into 3 hours of film, but in tv, books, and comic you can add so much more while letting different writers and creators flourish in their styles
He was also very nearly killed by a nanny bot he'd been left with when he was a toddler.
It is wonderful how the saga actually came full circle: Anakin turned to the Dark to keep Padme, while Ben turned to the Light to save Rey. That way he actually surpassed his grandfather in strength.
If only more people got it.
If only the way we got here was written well
@@grayski3324and made any sense at all
@@angryanakin It made sense
…From a certain point of view
"We are what they grow beyond." - Yoda
Alan: "I'm crying over a comic strip that isn't even part of this movie. What is wrong with me?"
John: "I think the question is, what is right with you?"
11:24
For me, I don’t think Han’s death wasn’t the most emotional seen in Star Wars, but it is top-tier.
Anakin burning on mustifar and hearing Obi-Wan say he was his brother was, in my opinion, the single most emotional scene. The close second would be Anakin‘s redemption from Darth Vader in episode six, and this scene, maybe tied with each other.
I would argue that the mustafar scene has no emotional depth. We never actually really saw obi and anakin bonding as “brothers” in the films
@@itsloganskywalker Clone Wars went in good depth
@@mrbobjackpeanutbutter yeah, but the thing is that movies shouldn't need to be fixed by additional content. Books, shows and games should serve to expand on the movies and give us a better view inside the universe of Star Wars, not to cover for movie faults.
@@itsloganskywalker Episode III attempts to, at least, show their relationship early on in the film. The scene where Han dies is the first scene where he and Kylo even interact and there wasn't set up for their relationship at all. Both scenes basically come down to the performances from the actors and I guess it just depends on which one you find more touching. Mustafar scene isn't the most emotional to me, but I'd say that Han dying barely registers emotions either.
It's a huge blender salad to me. I grew up w Luke and Vader, and it's still feels city.
Anakin and obi wan was cutting in its brutality, and I got the whole brother thing, but as noted earlier, it could have been a lot better developed.
The Han scene.....is a pain in the ass. It was impactful, but could have been a lot better. Knowing ford hates the character no doubt colored it for me. the acting is up to snuff, and you kinda get the betrayal/love but we never really got to see it. Then there's that rare SW actual death. So a huge mixed bag for me.
(And BTW han was force sensitive. Fight me. Lol)
THANK YOU for acknowledging that he was abused and neglected and deeply in pain. as someone who really loves his emotional complexity but also really struggles with what is “right” to feel about this character, I appreciate it.
There is the interesting bit too that he is trying to emulate his idol, his grandather, Darth Vader but since he didn't know him all he has is his image. That is an issue that happens often with idolization.
This is a great reaction, as always, and you made me rethink some things.
It was insane how much people hated Ben because he killed Han. Ben had been groomed by Snoke SINCE BIRTH. His patents were afraid of him, Luke was afraid of him, and he still resisted Snoke until his parents sent him away and the only adult left in his life tried to murder him in his sleep. He was like 17 when he turned, he was a child.
People have that opinion on Anakin as well and it’s kinda funny how similar they are Ben and Anakin because it’s pretty much the same story (kinda like the BASIC plot) with them being groomed by Palpatine or Snoke. And I love that about Star Wars I don’t particularly like the sequels but Bens character is what made it truly interesting.
It's bad set up in the films. It's clear how/when Anakin gets influenced by Palpatine.
However there's no set up for Snoke getting to Kylo. That recon is done later to explain his inexplicable behavior.
People defending Kylo and Anakin for that matter is what baffles me. They are villains, not heroes. Kylo is presented as unlikable and irredeemable, so there's no satisfaction in his sudden flip after multiple chances to stop.
He's too far gone at the start to live a normal life, so dying was the only way his story could end. So in the meantime, what is there to invest in?
Anakin at least seemed to genuinely care about Padme and Obi-wan. Kylo had no real connection to his father, mother, Chewie or Luke. He's a 30 year old man creeping on a 19 year old girl and showing more interest in her than his family.
Adam Driver's performance is great, but Kylo is not a good character.
Frozen's trolls taught that: "people make bad choices when they're mad, scared or stressed... But throw a little love their way, and you'll bring out their best"
That’s such a great way to put it. And I don’t even like Frozen. That’s just such a great way to look at anger, fear or stress
"People go bad because they're hurting."
Luke does that too. He doesn't fall to the Dark Side and become Darth Dingus or anything, but Luke is clearly overwhelmed by his responsibility when he tries to bring back the Jedi Order and he breaks down in a (in my opinion, very fittingly in character) momentary impulse of fear at the worst possible moment. Then, after he sees the result of his failure, he runs away and hides for a decade or whatever.
Oml darth dingus that's brilliant! Side note my autocorrect changed it to death fungus which made this so much funnier.
@@acelovesdiyschristopher7023 As a person who tries and usually fails at being funny, thanks for that.
@@nomar5spaulding it's my pleasure. I'm positive ur actually a lot funnier than u think
Luke's in exile for six years
@@KaminoKatie Thanks man. The number of years is less important than the idea, but the new canon timeline is also pretty much unknown to me. To be fair, about 5 or 6 years ABY in Legends and I'm pretty lost too lol.
My favorite scene is when Kylo Ren is having another temper tantrum(besides the first scene they show here, and two guards who are supposed to tell him something see his tirade and decide, "Nope, not now" and they turn in the other direction 🤣🤣🤣
Oh yeah, that scene is hilarious! xD
Gotta love the Nope-troopers : )
Yes! Lol I died on that
I loved that 😂
THAT scene made me sit up and take notice that the ST might be worth a watch lol.
When it comes to “whose scarier” between Vader and Ren, sure, Ren is scary. He’s out of control, and that can be terrifying. You’re scared cause this guy could kill you the next time he decides to throw a tantrum, but Vader commands respect. Vader’s presence alone is spine chilling. Maybe I just can’t take Kyle Ren seriously, but a child with a Gatling gun is still just a child. The fear is random with him, but Vader is a master marksman with a sniper rifle. He can do more than just kill you, he can truly threaten and control you.
Ren is scary in the sense that he could kill cause he had a bad day. The fear is primal, it’s instant panic, but Vader’s brand of scary is looming and silent. For me at least, that’s way more terrifying.
I still find Vader much more threatening. Maybe because we never really knew his history all that much, but I find Kylo, just kinda annoying and predicable. But a character like Homelander... OMG... whenever he's on screen I have no idea what he might do for some reason.
I think you just described this perfectly
Well it depends on wheather you are his subordanate or an enamy. As an enamy unhinged is an explotable weakness and theirfore less threatening. As a subordinate a mad king is much worse than a bad king who is in in cotrol.
I think the difference is not so much threat level than respect. Vader, to many people, is more threatening because hes a master, because of his control and because you know that whatever he does, it is calculated and with purpose. And that commands respect. Youre threatened but youre also in awe.
With Ren, and with out of control villains in general, you dont get that. Yes, it may come across as childish temper tantrums, but to me that made him more human and not necessarily less threatening. Vader you can sort of predict. An out of control villain... not so much. And if you few the scenes from the subordinate's point of view it gets terrifying. You see sth similar in GoT with Geoffrey being a literal child with hissy fits. You cant respect it in the slightest. But he has the potential for insane damage because he just does whatever he wants. He doesnt get how politics work, so you never know when hes going to rage. Children with gatling guns are arguably the most terrifying thing you can run into, if youre unfortunate enough.
Agreed
Not a huge fan of the Star Wars sequels but this analysis made me appreciate them a bit more. There’s always more than one perspective to view things from.
If you'd like more thoughtful analysis like this, I highly recommend the Force Center podcast. They're very chill, and have a lot of great thoughts about the storytelling and themes of Star Wars.
And I agree, this was a great analysis. Love these guys.
Something I appreciate about the sequel trilogy is how it portrays Rey’s life in literal poverty (I mean, she literally has to dig up scrap to exchange for mere portions or even SMALLER of food from a dude who is clearly hoarding all of it) and how she only gets her powers once she’s OUT of that situation, and isn’t under the constant stress of survival mode. These movies came out while I was working a minimum wage job and just barely scraping by every month (frequently, paycheck to paycheck) and getting out of it feels almost exactly like what I saw on the screen, so it REALLY connected for me.
Also the light behind both of them was wonderful. Han has a blue light behind him until the end, Ben stays in darkness until he starts to get emotional and we see a small amount of blue light coming from behind him. It shows the light side is peeking behind him until the sun goes out.
I admit to tearing up when Han said "I know" to Ben's unspoken words because it's how he responds to "I love you" to Leia... Ok, I did more than tear up, I was ugly crying.
Oh I never noticed that parallel!
Yes, I noticed that too..so sad and moving.
"I did want to take your hand.... Ben's hand" OH IT'S SOOO GOOOD
YOU LITERALLY FORGOT TO MENTION THAT THE ONLY MOMENT BEN/KYLO SMILED WAS DURING HIS FINAL MOMENTS WITH REY BC HE’S AT PEACE NOW 😭😭😭
I love that Alan cries at all the really moving scenes. It's so wholesome 🤍 (and makes me feel less weird for crying over fictional characters and movies too).
M'am, I weep at videos talking about the moving scene in question or talking about the character, no shame!
Talking about Star Wars, I think I once passed a whole podcast discussing Ben Solo, sobbing loudly while I was working(couldn't see shit through the tears lol). Almost 3 hours if I well remember😂
I love it too. I think it's one of the most sweet and wholesome things in this very wholesome and lovely channel 😊
“Showing love and compassion to people is the only way to change hearts” I love that quote Jonathan! I might put it on my wall! Could I? But wonderful video Alan and Jonathan! Thank you for doing this! Have a great weekend you guys!
Maybe that's true in small doses, but even, for example, with rude customers, it's a bit hit and miss. I'll be honest, that's what my parents' generation of Indian women were taught, and a lot of these young women went through absolute HELL at the hands of their in-laws (physical and mental abuse) persevering to love and obey just because they are taught that with endless love their in-laws will eventually grow to love them like family. Honestly that's now been removed from my heart totally - you won't change because I love you, you will change IF you love me and want to change. Otherwise it isn't my life's goal to change people's hearts. Give them their own responsibility.
There was an emotional love story happening between Rey and Ben. People don't have to view it as romantic, but there was an emotional connection that was their own. That fight in TROS was them being disappointed and angry with one another for their choices and POV that one rejected the other. In the end, Ben came back for her and chose her, not the light. I love that you guys hit on that he saw Rey as an equal--he did. He saw himself in her (and she saw the same in him). That hut scene was so important to support that after all the conversations they were having. He never lied to her and, in a sense, he was her teacher (not Luke along with Leia). She tapped into the Force when their bond activated and learned his fighting skills (that Luke recognized) and she was the person he could relate to emotionally because they were the same in some ways.
Also, the books go into Leia's regret that she neglected him as well as feared his rising power due to her denial about her own legacy (Vader's daughter). Ben found out family lies from her enemies. Ben couldn't kill another parent because killing Han was destroying him. Killing Leia definitely would have gutted him. And she is what sustained him until he died. It's beautiful in a way. (and the comics went into how he struggled to let go of his parents or kill them in a vision. Ben was projecting with Rey when he was saying she was still holding on--so was he! It's part of why that scene was sooo good!) I like to think that she was waiting for him because, regardless of what fans or even Disney-Lucas Films try to say, Leia loved her son and never wished another person was the child she never had--Ben was always the child she wanted and loved him always.
The fight with Luke was a family fight... the dialogue was clear. I wish they had Luke keep his promise to be in Ben's ear because I felt they needed to concentrate more on the Skywalker aspect (Ben) and not Rey's backstory. This is the failure of TROS to me. (But I also loved that Luke's redemption and last act was that of love for his family: Leia and Ben and his arc came full circle with him looking into the sunset and knowing the next part of his journey was beginning as this one ended and he was at peace)
I felt Ben living as an outlaw, actively seeking redemption through acts (and crossing paths with Rey) was the better continuation. But they wanted to kill all the blood Skywalkers and pass it on to Rey. I don't agree with that and I feel the limited themselves. But I do agree Ben giving his life was an act of love for Rey--he saved the galaxy by saving her and ending himself. And it was on his terms.
Ben was seeking validation and acceptance he never had, but also control. You saw that in TLJ and how he was struggling to be in control of his own destiny and made a choice. Someone also had the theory that Ben possibly had a mental illness exacerbated by the Force. And that could be true, but also his emotional instability from his parents neglect and Luke's mistake amplified his instability and Snoke fed it. He was seeking it from Vader, but that was being used against him (and it's criminal they didn't delve into that in TROS with a reaction when that reveal happened). He's been manipulated or neglected most of his life and all his choices with Rey were things he wanted for himself.
I love this character because he wasn't a standard villain and his motivations were MUCH more complex. To actually SEE the struggle in a Force user between the light and the dark, and it being the Skywalker heir, made so much sense and gave the movies more emotional grounding. In the end, these movies were also about a family's tragedy set amongst a war. Their legacy affected everything around them and had a few things been different, who knows where they would have been (and how messed up that family enemy won, in the end, and destroyed them in a sense). I also like that they reiterated how the Jedi were hypocrites and just as flawed as the Sith, and that sometimes failure is the greatest teacher.
I could go on, but Kylo/Ben was my favorite character. Adam Driver made this character complex and I appreciate it.
I remember watching Ben force-revive Rey at the cinema, sitting between two strangers. I was quietly screaming “Noooo” when Rey was still dead. And then with silent “Yes!” when she got back. And literally (but still quietly) squealed when they kissed.
But finally let out a loud “NOOO!” when Ben died. All these emotions for just one scene!
Adam Driver and his character carry the entire sequel triology on his back.
Marines are used to carrying the whole team if need be. We are the definition of try-hards.
@@MrClarkisgod thank you for your service to our nation.
Talking about self-harm in regards to Kylo, i read that scene a bit differently from my experiences. My partner has a long history dealing with self-harm and the way he’s described it to me wasn’t necessarily to replace emotional pain for physical pain but as self punishment for something he’s done/felt (though i guess that could also be interpreted as the same thing just rephrased). Obviously, everyone is different, but i read that scene as his intense guilt shining through that he felt he needed to punish himself for.
By "letting the past die" he killed his own future. A tragic character if I ever saw one.
Ben was the Skywalker who fulfilled what Anakin sought to do before his fall. He became so powerful he could keep the people he loved from dying
Dame😳 just dame😯
Ben also used the same lightsaber combat as Anakin djem sjo
Oh snap!
And why does he even love this chick or have this power? This question remains to be answered
What… he killed his dad…
As someone with bpd, I get urges to self harm when I’m angry. I take so much longer to calm down from being angry than I do from sadness, and it releases the emotions, pretty much the opposite of what it does for Kylo
Something I always found interesting was that in the 1st movie, she calls him out on wearing a mask, and he immidiatly takes it off and gets down on her eyelevel and talks to her there?
This was also something I wondered about and it makes sense when one considers a point the therapists made, namely that Kylo Ren recognises the strength of the force in Rey and this makes him regard her as an equal, so he respects and listens to her plus does his best to work with her albeit within the confines or limits of his perspective which has unfortunately been badly skewed due to his traumatic upbringing.
Who else thinks it would be interesting to see Cinema Therapy react to grief and trauma in Wandavision?
a level-headed discussion about star wars and kylo ren by two guys i could listen to?? bless. really enjoying your channel.
I would love to see composers as guests on these! The transformation of Kylo’s theme with a dissonant, dark, unstable tritone into Ben’s theme with the tritone raised up into a consonant, resolute, stable perfect fifth gave me all the chills in the theater. Each character and scene development is so deepened and enhanced by John Willam’s genius storytelling.
I don't know what those words mean, but I can *feel* what they mean. Agreed, would love to see this!
Kylo hitting himself in his wound really, REALLY stuck with me on my first time seeing TFA. My immediate thought was how he was using that to condition himself, train himself, like pain is often used to do, and it was so sad to me. It made me wonder what else he might have went through as far as pain or fear conditioning upon coming to Snoke/the first order. I think it's something that many people didn't notice or think about, but it hit me hard, especially seeing the blood on the snow.
Its mainly for him to focus and use his rage
I highly recommend the comic The Rise of Kylo Ren, it gives more context to his past and makes him more sympathetic and tragic although considering his treatment in TRoS and the arguments in the fandom over why a Star Wars villain abuse survivors and people with mental health problems identify with deserved death it might be a little triggering.
Ben Solo's character arc is literally the only reason I would ever rewatch the sequels
"Well how could he? Leia's his mom."
When you were talking about Ben's relationship with his parents, that struck a chord with me.
I don't get along with my own dad, wanting attention I don't think he knows how to give. My mom showed me unconditional love, but would lash out when angry, and she's who I saw the most, and still see the most. I know I have anger issues, my dad bottled his emotions up inside, and barely let them out, which made him sick, and my mom bottled up hers until she exploded. I don't know how to handle, or express emotions in a healthy way since I grew up with emotional extremes. I'm trapped somewhere between them. Not talking about my emotions, bottling them up until I either explode, or it makes me sick.
The one thing I love about the healing scene between Rey and Ben is that she not only heals the stab from the light saber, but also the scars on his face and neck she gave him earlier during their first fight. She sees him completely differently at that point. She sees the whole picture. All she wants to do now is take away every bit of pain. The death of Leia and Ben's reaction to it, opens her eyes and Ben can't help but be himself. Just like when Han dies, you see his REAL reaction quickly before Chewy shoots him. Ben let's go of Kylo because Leia was the one person that ever saw him as him. That spark of the light side. Now his mother is gone and he is truly alone. Rey already rejected him. But then, it's like Rey can see that in him, she can feel his loss and now fear of being alone. She then heals him and tells him her most intimate secret that she did want to take his hand but she wanted it to be Ben and not kylo... This puts her on the level of Leia to being completely vulnerable - like family. Understanding. That was Rey acknowledging that Leia wasn't the only one that could see the good, the real Ben. That she could too... That's when Ben rewrites his last moments with his father.
Another detail in Ep 9 I like that often goes unnoticed: When BB-8 asks Rey what she did with the snake, she says "I just gave it a little bit of my life energy. You'd do the same." And then later, when BB-8 finds the deactivated D-0, he DOES do the same - giving D-0 some power to reactivate him. It's a great little paying-it-forward moment.
Unfortunately it doesn’t work that way in real life. Anyone who is willing to kill their own father when he was trying to help him-run! There’s a very, very good chance you can’t heal shit…just. Run.
@@QuidamByMoonlight But this isn’t real life. If it wasn’t for the force, then yes, I’d agree with you. But because the force is there and the worldbuilding and lore was already set up, then in that case, it is possible to heal someone like that if they had the right resources (like unconditional love from others and being a powerful force-wielder).
Also, I also like how Ben repays the favor by bringing Rey back to life. And then, for the first time in the entire trilogy, he smiles because of the love that he was given from Rey and the connection that they had. (And he dies with a smile on his face too bc he’s at peace. 😭😭😭)
@@QuidamByMoonlight you should not be watching SW if you equate it to Real Life. SW is a metaphor, a fairy tale. Have you read those? Full of blood and gore and monsters who are healed.
So happy to see two commentators on UA-cam being respectful of TLJ, and see how beautiful the film truly was on its own!
Alan here. TLJ is my 2nd favorite Star Wars film after Empire. Yep, I even like it more than OG Star Wars (A New Hope).
I loved that it felt like Star Wars while completely messing with fans expectations. Which is why I also understand why so many people didn't like it.
That and misogyny.
Pop Culture Detective has a great video about that. Not that everybody who dislikes TLJ is automatically a misogynist (far from it,) but misogynists automatically dislike TLJ.
@@CinemaTherapyShow I vastly dislike the idea that people hate TLJ because it "subverts expectations". It's a lie that completely sidesteps the seemingly endless well of legitimate criticisms levied against the movie.To take all of those criticisms and dumb them down to "you don't like that your fan theory didn't happen" is insultingly dishonest, and it's only made worse because the people who put that out there include Rian Johnson himself, who thought it was acceptable to insult and denigrate the fans when they didn't like his work.
For a good breakdown of the many, MANY, *MANY* flaws with The Last Jedi, Mauler's three-part critique of it is probably the best criticism of it out there.
I'm not even going to touch the "misogyny" thing, because despite three years of TLJ defenders claiming that criticizing it meant you hate women, I never once heard of nor saw anything that suggested actual prejudice against women among the critics of the movie. The fact is that Rey, Holdo, and Rose are just awful characters. The actresses were actually rather good, barring a bad delivery or two from Kelly herself; their characters were just not worth it.
@@CinemaTherapyShow I fully agree, I loved The Last Jedi, and still do; its the only Star Wars movie I could watch on its own. The Star Wars fandom is indeed still male-gazed, and a lot of fan’s dark sides were outed when this movie came out. Love the channel, keep it up you guys!
@@DiZtheJedi Agreed - I'm an intersectional feminist part of the most marginalized ethnic group in Europe. Rey, Rose and Leia were my favourite part of TLJ, but I still think it's a shit movie. It's just badly written and seems to me to be an ego-project by Rian Johnson, rather than a Star Wars movie (and honestly, I wouldn't have liked it even if it wasn't an SW movie. It's just flat-out badly written with a poor plot). And honestly, a lot of my critique is that it isn't, in fact, anti-feminist hiding behind a smoke-screen of "look we put women in the lead" (several forced romances anyone? Because that's all we women are good for, right? It's like the Hobbit all over again). Yet, whenever I say that I didn't like TLJ the immediate response is "oh, so your a woman who hates women?" followed by a total refusal of hearing my, why I don't like it.
Sorry men, you aren't an ally to us women by calling everybody who you disagree with an anti-women hater. You are, in fact, part of the problem.
@@christophermichael6844 And I'm saying that the claim that the majority of criticisms are just "it subverted expectations" and "waah generic sexist strawman" is untrue simply because no one is ever able to point to these supposed sexists or their reviews. You can't say that it's a fact and not provide some sort of evidence. I'm sure that there are misogynists out there who took offense at the female characters in this movie, but they're a tiny minority, and aren't worth your attention. Ignore those morons, and address the actual, real criticisms that people are making, and not the strawman arguments that the creators and defenders are pointing at. Again, I refer you to Mauler's video series "A Critique of Star Wars: The Last Jedi" for a comprehensive look at what's wrong with this movie. Here are the links:
Part 1: ua-cam.com/video/vw7pcCj0ORk/v-deo.html
Part 2: ua-cam.com/video/_gRC4L6lNoc/v-deo.html
Part 3: ua-cam.com/video/yFnMMzqjYGw/v-deo.html
If those are too long, there's a much shorter less comprehensive one called "Star Wars: The Last Jedi: An Unbridled Rage". It's not as extensive, or as objective, but it's still a good place to start. Link below.
ua-cam.com/video/9QJRw56cOVw/v-deo.html
It's fine if you like the movie, I'll never say that you can't, or that you're wrong to do so. And I'll never deny that there isn't good that can be gotten from it, as Cinema Therapy is showing in this video. There are good elements; with the exception of a couple of Rose's lines, the acting is pretty great, and the visuals and effects are of course absolutely stunning. Visually, the Lightspeed Ram is maybe the most jaw-dropping thing I've ever laid eyes on. But I'm a thirty-one year old man. I need more than pretty lights to find substance in a movie. Not a lot more, mind, I do like Aquaman and the first Thor movie after all. But I need more than wild effects and a director and creative team that hate me for not liking their movie.
Something that I want to point out is that kylo didn't know ray had the force when he started showing her respect by removing his mask, he let her see his face which at that point he hadn't done for anyone else
He was attracted to her. It's that simple. And then, when he realizes she is as powerful in the force as he is (even thought she doesn't know it)... his attraction is turned into fascination AND fear and respect.
Seeing Carrie Fisher just makes me wanna cry... Her death still is so Raw.
I get sad while watching star wars now just knowing that she's gone.
5:35 the sound design in this sequence is incredible too. You can actually hear when control shifts from Ben to Rey, and she starts peering into his mind
In Ben's defense: he didn't cause *billions* of deaths. Hosnian Prime being blown up was all Snoke and Hux - at that point Kylo Ren was just a glorified hitman for Snoke. (He absolutely went along with it though and also murdered a lot of people, so yes still bad)
Indeed, like Vader people blame him for the Super-weapon deaths. In Vader's case he was actually against destroying Alderaan, he even confronts Tarkin about it in the novel stating the Emperor should be consulted.
There's this quote by Yanush Korchak (I highly recommend looking him up), that essentially says "There are no bad kids, there are only kids that bad things have happened to", and I really see this come to life in Ben Solo.
(I couldn't find the exact quote so don't come at me).
Will definitely do that - what a great quote.
I always say “every villain was once a small child.” People who do terrible things absolutely deserve to be brought to justice, but it’s just a reminder for me to never forget our shared humanity.
As an educator, I absolutely agree.
I've never seen it written like that, but as Janusz Korczak (just in case this other spelling of his name is helpful to look for this amazing polish educator, doctor and writer)
"Her midichlorians were off the charts." "I'm going to pretend you didn't say that." HA HA HA HA.
I would have preferred “off the scale” as a tip of the hat to Weird Al.
Still don’t get why people hate midichlorians.
@@mr.stuffdoer8483 Well objectively it's a dumb name, for one. "MiDiCHLoRiANs" ugh. For another, no matter how much exposition you put into it, "this person has powers because special blood particles" just... cheapens the whole thing. Suddenly a Force user is not powerful because of their training or will or connection to a higher power- it's because they got lucky in the genetic lottery. The Force is one of those story elements that is better left unexplained. Is it the power of God? Is it a natural phenomenon? Is it a physical ability to manifest the will of the collective human unconscious? We don't know, so it can be any of those things - or more - to anyone. Everyone gets to have their own personal head canon of what The Force is, which in turn makes the fantasy of the movie more personal and special to each viewer.
@@mesmer3780 The fact that we don’t know how midichlorians work makes it fine for me, plus it’s always been obvious not anyone could use the force; even people with minimal training, or flat-out no training had force abilities, even in the OT. Also, it never stopped kid me from using the force to open automatic doors.
I will say, I'm glad that the Star Wars writers have largely avoided what could have been the biggest problem with Midichlorians: using them as a "power level" indicator. It would have been so so easy to have a "His midichlorian count is over 9,000!" moment. But the writers have all been smart enough to avoid that, and let midichlorians just kind of fade into the background as more of a lore detail than a critical plot device.
This is like when someone sits in your un-assigned assigned seat in class. Go back to your seats please we can't handle change.
It's hilarious how much anxiety it's giving everyone
I'm gonna guess some people recognised themselves in either Snoke or Kylo and it made them uncomfortable enough to loathe some dude they've never met.
The “Dad...” “I know” gets me every time!
Adam Driver REALLY nails that scene. It's a perfect call back to Han and Leia.
I just realised that when ben said dad...
And han replied with I know
Ben was trying to tell him I love you but han knew it
@@hellothere7948 "I love you." "I'm sorry." "Can you forgive me?"
So MANY things he wanted to say. And Han knew. He felt the same way towards Ben.
Exactly. Han knew everything with just the word "dad.."
The way he sort of gasps, like he’s on the verge of all out sobbing 😭 I love Adam, he truly respects the characters he portrays.
Gosh seriously thank you for this. Adam Driver is the reason why Kylo Ren works for me and is my favorite character. But your analysis on him gave me a chance to accept his ending, even if I am still bitter about it. I wish he lived a different life in some other way.
The way you guys talk about such a controversial piece of film while not bringing me any form of discomfort by the many toxic opinions on media especially UA-cam is truly rare. Like I don't even enjoy the newer movies but you gave me a new unexpected yet positive view that shocked me and I found myself really intrigued. This was some extreme comfort and very informative content. Gj gj
I just realized that FOR ONCE when the bad guy is alone with the woman he isnt like stroking her body and being a complete creep. Like I know Kai Loren murdered my fav character but hes probably my favorite bad guy for that alone
It’s spelt Kylo Ren/Ben but yeah I agree
Also notice when storm troopers get shot by chewies crossbow they get blasted away but Kylo takes the shot and can still walk. He’s strong AF guys.
It's the power of abs. And family. We'll see him in the next fast and furious "fast and furious in a galaxy far far away"
12:08 the tanget about self harm is completely correct, as someone who has had a lot of problems with self harm I never during those moments thought of what i was doing was wrong, instead i thought of it as the logical thing to do, to replace all that emotional pain and suffering i had with physical pain was for me a "great" way to handle it all, but after a while it spiraled out of control into a addiction.
Imagine that you were in a extreme amount of mental pain and just were feeling like everything was against you and that you had no control over your own life and then you have this thing (self harm) in which you have total control over what is happening and what you are feeling it becomes like a drug off "I have control, i can make everything go away simply because i want it too" it is legitametly a irresistible thing and is so tantalising that it becomes something you just must have.
For me now i dont say that "oh i quit doing self harm a year ago" no for me i think of it and say it like "i have been clean from self harm for a year" since it was for me no different from a drug or substance abuse and even though i dont have suicidal thoughts anymore and are in a much much better mental state i still have "withdrawl" moments where i need to fight against the urge of self harm. its something that for me i dont believe will go away
This is the character death that has affected me most in fiction, ever. I know some people take his character very literally and hate on him, but for me Kylo represents a struggle with guilt, depression, anger, frustration, loneliness, a lack of understanding from the people around you. Overwhelming feelings that can push a person into doing questionable things, especially if they feel like this since they were a child and got no help. The ending he got absolutely gutted me. The redemption arc was so beautiful and brought me so much hope, but the fact that the writers decided to kill him off, as if his effort had been meaningless and he didn't deserve happiness, it was absolutely heartbreaking.
I feel you Robin. I ugly cried when Ben Solo died. My boyfriend and his friends also completely misunderstood the character and hated on him. I'm a c-ptsd survivor and I felt incredibly connected with Kylo/Ben and his journey.
I grieved for him for weeks. Like full on depression, sobbing at the drop of a hat, *grief*. I could not participate in fandom spaces or talk to my Star Wars friends for months. I mean there's something to be said for developing parasympathetic relationships and such and so forth, but I think the worst part about it was that it felt like injustice. That there's this character coded as mentally ill, who struggled with the same things I did once, and the only recourse the story had was to kill him? It gutted me. It said something dark and ugly about our society that I had never been prepared to face.
@@aquiamorgan2416 I get that - it’s incredibly rough :(
Yes! Same here! It devastated me! And I don't think I will ever be ok with it!
@@aquiamorgan2416 Same! 😞
Sometimes the self harm is about replacing the emotional/mental pain with the physical pain, but sometimes it can be about just feeling something, anything. When my depression manifests as apathy, I just don't feel anything, and the physical pain grounds me, and pulls me back.
“This movie doesn’t shy away from lightsaber gore”
This movie: slices Finn’s spine with a lightsaber, has zero blood from the slice, and the dude isn’t dead from that
They were talking about TLJ. You're talking about TFA. Two different movies.
@@indranidasgupta8982 whoops. Tbh I remember this entire trilogy as one big movie so… things get mixed up a lot lol 😅😇
@@FelineDeskFan13 it's okay! No big :)
@@indranidasgupta8982 :D
I was SO terrified to watch this video after yesterday’s poll but I am OVERJOYED with your analysis! You two understand the themes and characters and so eloquently discuss it!! You did Ben Solo justice in this analysis!!!!😍😍😍
You guys should do something with Loki from the mcu, he has a long and complicated arc
With a terrible ending
@@jupiterisaak1004 and an interesting comeback
Loki from the comics you mean? Now that’s a interesting character
I have a different take on Kylo taking out his day on inanimate objects. Sometimes you are filled with such anger, rage, and frustration that it has to go somewhere. You have to vent it. While this does speak to a general lack of emotional control, it is the least bad of some bad choices. He could have force-choked the officer or chopped him into kibble with his lightsaber, but he chose to wreck a bank of replaceable equipment instead. He chose to vent on an object instead of killing a person. That is... something? It's akin to punching a wall instead of your spouse. Not a great sign, but it could be worse.
2:40 I love how when Ben first hears about Rey, his real voice is heard pretty clearly through his mask. I think it's pretty funny that he's making his voice lower physically and by using voice changer, only dropping the act when he's caught off guard.
That’s a sign of insecurity. Elizabeth Holmes did it too.
The problem with the trilogy format is that you are ultimately forced to judge whether or not you like characters mid way through their arcs because franchise installments are literally years apart. If audiences had watched Kylo/Ben’s arc over all the movies at once, they would have appreciated him as a character.
Haha, Taht's me xD
I watched the sequel trilogy, with my mom, in Disney+ all at once. (I didn't watch the movies when they came out). And I can say, we both Loved Kylo/Ben, we were like "Whrere's Ben?" every time he was not on the screen xDD
Although, my mom liked Fin better.
I have Ben in first place and Fin in second place as my favourite characters from the sequels.
For sure.
Just like with the prequels, over time the attitude to the sequels will mellow out.
Eh, I don't know about being forced to judge the characters one way or another. The second movie threw in just enough twists and interesting questions about Ray and Ben/Kylo that it was pretty clear to me that both characters had the option to change completely - for better or for worse. It was really only the first movie that painted a consistent and clear good vs evil picture, but considering that the first of a trilogy is literally just character introduction/establishment, I don't usually get too attached to my initial views of any of the characters in a first film.
@3:44
"I don't believe fear to be an effective motivator." ~ Gustavo Fring, Breaking Bad
Kylo Ren deserved better! 😭 Palpatine literally tormented him since he was a child, reinforcing his self doubts and fears, giving him nightmares... Kylo did really terrible stuff, but damn... He deserved to live.
THIS!!!!!!
Since the womb and Leia was well aware and didn't communicate this with Han.
@@JenniferPayen Leia was aware that the end of her Jedi path would end with Kylo's death, so she just stopped training on her last day and never did the final step, to try and save him.
It's obvious Ben Solo shouldn't be punished for the crimes of Kylo Ren
@@PredatorH2O It’s about redemption not punishment. That’s SW theme.
What about the fact that Han was willing to step into the red light/dark to get to Ben? He is willing to go into the darkness to try and get his son back.
OH :’(
I always interpreted his expression when he sees Kylo walk past him, as him realising he was going to die. And then he walked forward to the bridge anyway, in a kind of atonement for his failings as a father, to make that last gesture that might undo the damage and bring his son back. I always thought it was a very brave moment.
The fact we never see red eye kylo ren/ ben solo, immediately told me he never was truly sith. Even in the first movie.
You guys should do one about Rey. She’s full of emotional baggage. Deep down she doesn’t like herself very much and believes that if her parents abandoned her they must’ve had a good reason. Ever wonder why she sees an evil version of herself in Rise of Skywalker? Because on some level that’s how Rey has always perceived herself.
Remember what master Yoda said? “Only what you take with you.”
Also she needs validation from others to feel she has self worth, that's why Kylo says "your parents were nothing you're nothing" in TLJ when he is trying to manipulate her
Rey has become one of my comfort characters!(Plus she's autistic don't @ me)
I watched a lot of the original Star Wars as a child, in the theater. When Han dies, I cried my eyes out, and wasn't sure if I would be able to make it through the rest of the movie. My eating disorder is my version of not feeling. I've never cut, drunk, or did drugs but it's the same mechanism.
Jon and Alan: "There are Reylo fans wanting the two of them to get together."
*Shows the shirtless scene with sexy music playing*
Me: *dies of laugher*
No, but seriously, good job on another great video guys.
me watching this with a 6’3 cardboard cut out of kylo ren standing behind me
John Oliver? Is that you??
I have a Kylo Ren plushie! Take that! 😂
Yummy
25:12 The classic "I love you" from Leia and the "I know" from Han, but Ben didnt even needed to say that he loved Han, It was implicit just by saying "Dad"
"What is right with you? We all should cry over comic strips." You understand.
---- SPOILERS FOR STAR WARS THE RISE OF SKYWALKER ----
I wished they kept Ben alive. It's not often we get to see a character need to forge his own redemption path and continuously do so when the world despises him.
I think you would like avatar the last airbender. we see them all grow as characters and we see soka because the person he wanted to be and zuko forge a redemption path after his years of hunting the good guy
@@killcharge4338 That's my show! I didn't give it much opportunity as a teen to watch it, but later as an adult, it became such a part of me. I like LOK too.
@@tiffanypersaud3518 yeah I have always loved avatar
You should watch the she-ra reboot on netflix, the character catra has done terrible things. But she has a lot of trauma and frustration, and is sooooo satisfying seeing her be her best self by the end of it.
if they ever make a sequel trilogy TV show, they need to bring Ben Solo back to life.
thank you for not making me feel bad for enjoying, liking, appreciating The Last Jedi.
Objectively the best movie of the new trilogy
Some ideas it had could have been good. The triology suffers from poor direction.
@@paulrasmussen8953 I always maintain that the wrong direction is the one that pander to nostalgia. Let the past die, as they say.
Also, I just want to say JJ is insane for putting Adam Driver behind a mask. This isn't David Prowse, it's one of the best actors in Hollywood. Let us see him act.
@@TheHauntedKiwi nope weong direction. A modufied thrawn triology would work ir what templin institute did
Frankly, if the world was a sensible place (which - who can say that at this point) it would be recognized toe to toe with Empire. It's worth mentioning that as far as anyone can tell it is the only movie of the three that George Lucas said anything nice about
The red on all of Hans face as he stands there, fully ready to die, and Kylo's face on partially red, because he's torn. Nice touch
Ben Solo deserved better. If you really dig deep into the books and comics (which are canon), you see this guy had the odds stacked against him. There were many times he tried to be a good person, was a good person, but people kept hurting him (mainly his family) which led him to being manipulated (abused) by Snoke.
There's a beautiful monologue by Ben in "The Force Awakens" novel where he's on the ship staring out at the stars and he calls over an officer. Then he starts talking about how he sees how there's so much turmoil in the universe yet beauty can still be found, that he hopes that the efforts of the First Order can help stabilize and bring order to the chaos. And as you learn more about Ben, you realize he was probably projecting in that moment. He was searching for order and peace in his own life, and joined the FO out of hope that it would do so and give him a place of belonging.
There are many times in the books and comics where Ben actively or passively tries to do the right thing. In the scenes that we do see, Adam Driver played these moments perfectly. For instance, when Snoke decides to destroy the system, Ben quickly steps up, disagrees with the command, and tries to put the focus back on him finding Rey as if to keep Snoke from carrying out the plan. Snoke is determined and asks Hux to prepare the weapon. Then he turns to Ben and tells him that he "will show (Ben) the Darkside." It's well known that the FO would brainwash their troopers and Snoke has shown many times how manipulative and abusive he can be. What Snoke said was a threat and a promise of punishment towards Ben. Snoke throughout the books and movies knows that Hux and Ben both vie for his attention and he uses their competitiveness to his advantage. He even tailors how he talks to each of the men. When he speaks to Hux, he is orderly, efficient, and authoritative. When he speaks to Ben, and is pleased with him (aka Ben is doing what Snoke wants) he speaks to him in a fatherly, soft way. But if Ben starts thinking for himself or displeases Snoke, Snoke immediately favors Hux and speaks angerly at Ben. It's all manipulation and abuse.
Ben went from a neglectful homelife (one type of abuse), tried to find a family at his Unclr Luke's school (only for his master/uncle try and kill him as he slept) and, in a last ditch effort to find acceptance, he ran toward a deeper, more sinister relationship of mental, emotion, and physical abuse. He was doomed from the start.
I think that's why Ben's death angered me, and many fans, so much. Yes, he made bad decisions and there's no excuse. But he frequently showed throughout the series that he did want to be a good person and that he was willing and able to learn from his mistakes. So to see a character be trapped in multiple abusive situations from birth, situations that consistently told him he was a monster and not to be trusted even when he was doing good...they completely skewed his thinking. He truly believed that he was a bad person because that's what people (including his parents) told him despite him never (at that time) doing anything wrong. So to see this guy who is very broken finally get his healing only to be killed two seconds later...it bothers me. He finally healed completely and BOOM! "sorry you don't deserve to live because, you know, 'bad guy.'" No. He was a good guy who made bad choices. It just felt like there was no mercy or grace for him.
Agreed. They did him so dirty in TROS! He should have lived out his happiness with Rey 😭
SAY IT LOUDER TO THE BACK. Completely agree with you
I agree with you 100%
@@christophermichael6844 People like you is why I hate society. There is no compassion all we want is to judge people. He didn't deserve to die because he was abused by people around him and having somebody telling you your whole life that you bad person gonna change your mind and you gonna star seeing yourself as bad person. I was Bullied by one guy in my school for 8 years saying how stupid and usseles person I'm and I started beliving that. Mapulating yourself to become what people see you as is not healty and destroys you even when you do right thing and people don't see you difrently and have same opion of you as before. He just got himself free of abuse he sufered and they killed him and maybe is just me being emotional and felling sympathy for fictional character. I just hate that there are people who would in real life judge person who was abused his whole life even if is a fictional character.
If this amount of background and depth had been in the last trilogy, perhaps I would have disliked it less.
I'm so glad you guys reacted to this. I have always felt like I related to Kylo/Ben in several ways. Hearing the way you guys break down his character made me think about some parts of myself in a different way. I'm just so glad this video exists now. 💕
Your comments about "kill the messenger" managers is spot on. A few months into a new job, the lower level employees realized that I was "brave enough" to tell the owner about problems that were effecting production. The first time I did so, he started railing against me. I said: "This problem affects the performance and profitability of your business. If you don't want me to tell you, if you want your people to hide this from you, just say so, and I won't report problems to you again." That stopped him cold in his tracks. I think it dawned on him that he was actually encouraging people to hide things from him, because they dreaded his reaction. He said "No, I need to know about problems." After this, he worked to be more open and less intimidating to the lower level production employees.
Kylo is my freaking favorite character from Star Wars.
There are so few men on youtube that actually are in favor of Ben Solo. And so much of it has to do with his emotions.