Today we talk about the one thing Batman the Animated series got wrong.. #batmantheanimatedseries #batmantas #catwoman #selinakyle #dcau #dcanimated #animatedseries #batman
I say that overall this version of Catwoman was decent for what it was. Let's not forget that it was a cartoon about Batman first with Catwoman being a secondary character that was intentionally designed as more of classic 40's Femme Fatale type antagonist rather than an a complex anti-heroine that she was in her own series at the time. And for what it was it worked imo, it's far from perfect if you wanted for her to be like in her oven series, but the important part that it never effected perception or reputation of the Catwoman in the comics or an outside media in any negative way, and I would argue it helped to generate more interest in the character for generations to come. Also, believe you me when I say that Catwoman got it easy, with this version being still beloved by many, compared to someone like Lois Lane from STAS who's almost universally disliked😂.
You make a great point! The animated series certainly helped the character reach a wider audience, if perhaps not in the best light haha. Though Selina had a long history as an antihero by that point, even prior to her own series, which is why it's confusing that they chose the more negative-villanous side of her. I'm probably being picky with Catwoman, but can we at least agree Harley was handled better? :D And you are very right about Lois too! although she has always had that "army brat" side of her, but maybe not to the degree depicted in Superman The animated series.
@anyalized Well, Harley was an orginal character made by BTAS team. so biases were inevitable. Yet Harley was shown to be the least bright and the most subservient out of all female characters, and even Talia didn't had a wants and goals outside of her relationship with her father and Batman. While Selina was always a character of her own, unapologetically honest with herself, she's a thrill-seeking thief who does what she wants without a care in the world, and she didn't let anyone, not even the guy she really liked, to force her to be what she doesn't wanted to be. Maybe not the best Catwoman, but damn it's a pretty solid female character and a cool complex villian if you ask me. Also, I would say that STAS Lois is more of a spolied city girl than anything.
What happened to TAS Catwoman almost sounds like someone had actual malice for her and thus made her the opposite of her comic book version. Thanks for reminding me that Adrienne Boob--whoops, I mean Barbeau--voiced Catwoman. I still love how in Cannonball Run, Adrienne's character would flash her cleavage to get out of a ticket by a male cop, only to have it fail when the cop is a female and played by Valerie Perrine, who also has considerable cleavage to show off. Excellent presentation!
Hahaha Adrienne is Lovely! Did you know she once did a play with two other male actors where they would act the entire play fully nude? And one of the reviews had the audacity to say "these actors are not sexy at all, but at least they have energy!" or something along those lines ha! I you ever come across a black and white photo of her with two men staring at her, that's the one! And now I have to see Cannonball run haha I've only seen her in Creepshow, Swampthing, Carnivale and The Fog. Thank you very much! :)
It's an all-star cast. Well, this was in the early 1980s. It's a movie that makes you think, "What's he or she doing here?" Plus, Adrienne drives a slick, black Lamborghini Countach that looks like it could be a Batmobile. I was reading a bunch of car magazines as a young boy, and it was a toss-up between what would be my first reaction: "Whoa, boobies!" or "That's a Lamborghini Countach, badass!"
Oh my god, I don’t know how I never realized all the “Catwoman” episodes had some of the weakest animation and were rather lackluster overall. I love “Almost Got ‘Em” and Batgirl Returns, though the latter is more a Batgirl ep. I too was a big fan of the Balent Catwoman series, but I actually liked the gray suit design. They “ruined” pretty much all the female characters with the redesign 😭 of the New Adventures. Just discovered your channel, keep up the good and insightful work 👍
Thank you very much! Agreed, while I love Batman the new adventures, that series did a big disservice to the female characters, save for Batgirl, Montoya or Harley who came out on the winning side. And I too love the grey suit she wore prior to the Purple 90's. Minus the "street walker" part hehe
@@anyalized I think it would be hard even for them to mess up Harley Quinn, but then again they somehow managed to mess up the joker 😱 My only issue with the new Batgirl would be how tiny they made her look.
@@trevturp6891 The modern version of Catwoman was introduced by Frank Miller as a prostitute, I use the term "street walker" so it doesn't sound as bad. I'm sorry for the confusion! as for the Jim Balent version, that's the 90's version of Catwoman from her first solo ongoing series. Hope that helps!
I love the DCAU but I admit that I don’t like the portrayals of some characters. Though i feel like while Catwoman got it bad i think Croc got it worse since they basically made him an evil monster who manipulates people to his advantage.
@@anyalized You’re welcome, not really your fault anyway since this is a Catwoman centered video. Plus Waylon got some good stories tie in comics of BTAS from what I heard.
Strongly agree on Balent's Catwoman comics: a solid depiction of the character. However, I can't agree on her being "average" or other female characters from B:TAS being more attractive than her.
Catwoman's my favorite character. To me, writers always struggle with Selina, when they make her too ambiguous. Not quite a love interest, not quite an antagonist, not quite a hero, etc. In BTAS, making her an animal rights activist, was a nice touch. But she should've gotten a proper origin story episode. That scrapped BTAS episode starring her and Black Canary, could've been awesome. And I would've loved to have seen Bruce and Selina actually date and team-up, in more episodes. There were a lot of missed opportunities, for this version of Catwoman to be even more iconic. My favorite Catwoman episode was Cult of the Cat. Adrienne Barbeau was really fun, funny, and quippy in that one.
When I saw Catwoman as a kid.. she was a bit of a wildcard. She kinda confused me. I couldn't decide whether she was a hero or villain. Probably...would you say she's the first.."anti-hero" in my life?? The one thing that stood out was Her love for cats...
I liked her suit design but I never like her face design glad I'm not the only one as for her character in the batman animated series yeah I agree. I feel like her character was quite interesting in her year one comic as well as the batman year one movie. Do you have any thoughts?
Yes! Yes! Yes! The Batman Tas suit is one of my favorites, it's elegant, and practical as well as seductive, but her face just seems a little too masculine, especially when compared to the other gotham ladies :( And about the Year One version.. I supose I will eventually talk about it, but I must admit, while I do appreciate the grey suit, the Falcone connection, and the addition of Holly, I'm just not fond of the s*x worker aspect. Not to knock on those who that for a living. I respect anyone who makes an honest living!
@anyalized Interesting point on the s*x work part I admit I was somewhat uncomfortable with that part but I think it also shows how hard her life was growing up in Gotham which has always been depicted as a pretty corrupt and criminally overrun city which really adds another layer of depth to her character.
Naw, the biggest flaw is the show is the Bruce&,Barbara ship. But yeah I did have some issues with her, especially in the last season when it came to how they handled her relationship with Bruce.
I agree about this version of Catwoman being unremarkable but I think you were quite a bit harsh when comparing her to other female characters. Though I understand your frustration because I'm also disappointed with the current way Catwoman has been written in her own comic recently. I don't know if you've read it or not but to summarize, she's been turned into a villain (again), albeit an incompetent one and she's also gotten manipulated by other villains to target Batman. I also agree with you that Jim Balent's Catwoman, despite the voluptuous body, big melons and the pin-up poses, she was the peak Catwoman even if many will say that it was Brubaker. I love her origins in #0, her curly, wavy and voluminous hair which I've grown a soft spot, the heists AND the fact that she was absolutely unfazed and uninterested in the advances that male characters made on her (or rather hyper-independence, which is something that is explored in her #0 origin story.) Honestly, I hope a writer or artist will bring the long curly hair back and her purple costume. Though I will take the grey from the BTAS to symbolize the grey area she works in. I can't say I'm a fan of her all black leather because it makes her look too similar to Black Cat. Her pixie cut I don't mind, though the way it is drawn can be either ugly or pretty depending on the artist. Anyway, enough of my ramblings. Do you have an honest opinion of her origin (or rather origins) and what's your favorite one?
Please ramble as much as you like! I appreciate the feedback, especially the one written as well as yours. I'm sorry if I was too harsh! Believe me, I didn't want to come off that way. But It's just both furstrating and disapointing seeing how good Harley had it, when Selina and Ivy (who both had to work their way up to success) got scraps, when they deserved the kind of favorable treatment that Harley got. I actually stopped reading Catwoman a while ago. As it was just dreadful reading what they had done to Selina. I really really reeeeally want to talk about modern Catwoman, as there is just too much to work with, but I don't remember if it was either Perch or thinking critical, that mentioned that bad talking the current Comics puts you in some sort of "black list", and that kinda scares me a little. So I will limit myself to anything before rebirth. Also, you're right, the "gentlemen magazine" pin up poses and tripple G size breasts could turn people away from the 90's comic. But she was such a joy to read. Despite her "bad girl art" inspired looks, she was written as intelligent, always capable of handling herself and always in control. She wasn't sleeping around (not judging those who do). Unlike the newer one, who embodies everything wrong with comics. Absolutely! her Pixie cute can look good when drawn by artists who don't think of her as a masculine woman. People often underestimate just how feminine Selina is, despite her strength and willful character. About her "Origin", thanks for adding the "s" at the end, as she does have multiple variations. This might piss some people off, and I'm sorry, but the prostitution aspect of her origin never made any sense to me. A woman that smart, determined and independent, with that much skill (even before trainning) would not have resorted to that line of work. She was already a thief since childhood. She could have survived that way without selling her body for a few bucks. Especially under such an abusive and disgusting pimp like "Stan". Again, I love everything else. The armless Master angle. The inclusion of Holly and Maggie, etc. Just my two cents! Thank you once again for taking the time to share your thoughts! :)
@@anyalizedCatwoman sleeping around is not as common as you would think. Most of her love interests tend to appear in one specific story and then never show up again. The others tend to be more shallow/less developed ones. They tend to appear just to flirt with Selina or to give her romantic/sexual tension. And these love interests will later get discarded by the same writer or the next one. I feel like some people think that because Catwoman is a sexual character then it means she's also promiscuous. I mean, Bayonetta shares similar character traits with her. She flirts, she makes innuendos, she wears sexy clothes, but you don't see her sleep around. And yes, one of the reasons why I love Selina is for her femininity. I often look at the 90s Supermodels fashion and that's how I imagine my Selina to carry herself, with style. And as for her supporting cast, it's kind of annoying at how inconsistent it is. Holly Robinson is arguably the most well developed Catwoman supporting character thanks to Ed Brubaker, but her character took a complete 180° turn when Tom King wrote her and has been made a villain against Selina. As for Maggie, I personally like for Selina to have a sister, someone who's been there with her since the beginning, but Maggie is a character who is unfortunately a plot device. Her only use is to be a target to Selina's enemies and then she gets fridged. Ted Grant is also my favorite trainer for a younger Selina. I wish their dynamic had been explored more on her origin story.
Great video! I'm glad someone finally pointed this out. I think the DCAU dropped the ball on a LOT of characters, but Catwoman is the most egregious. But is it a surprise? I have an old fanzine called 'Comicology' where Bruce Timm admits that he never liked the DC characters, and vastly prefers Marvel. One thing I never get is people saying the animated version is "based on Michelle Pfieffer". Other than the blonde hair, I don't see it. Where's those Pfieffer cheekbones? I always thought she looked more like Lana Turner - which may be the key to how Timm sees Catwoman - as a generic film noir "dame" who's always in over her head.
Oh my, that's a huge bummer, but it would explain a lot.. I have only seen the beautiful cover featuring the Robins, so thank you for sharing that info! And yes, it doesn't look like michelle at all. But Didn't Warner demand they make her a blonde to coincide with Batman Returns? That part has been repeated so many times it has since become an accepted truth. The BTAS team have opnely spoken how they were forced to rush the production of "The Cat and the Claw", to capitalize on "Batman Returns". Which is why the first part was aired as the first episode, when "On Leather Wings" was supposed to be the first. Oh and Thank you very much!
@@anyalized Oh, I'm glad you knew what I was talking about! I wish someone would scan that and post it online, I think it would open a lot of people's eyes to the fact that Timm is not the Messiah of the DCU - he's not even a fan of it! Also check out Comics Scene #32 from 1995 (with Sylvester Stallone as Judge Dredd on the cover) where he says Wonder Woman is "a terrible character" and he doesn't like female characters in general because they have to be "sensitive". As for WB saying Catwoman had to look like Michelle, there must be SOME truth to it, since the original design had her long black hair, but if so, why is what she's wearing nowhere near the awesome Burton-designed goth black vinyl BDSM costume? She's basically wearing the Mazzuchelli-designed costume (which is ripped off from Miss Fury) with Julie Newmar's belt.
Good catch,I never noticed these things during it's first run ( I haven't re-watched the series in years ) but,I may have to go back for a nostalgic look see. I too liked the Jim Balent drawn Cat-Woman comics,good stuff back then. What do you think of the female super-heroes from the animated Bruce Timm JL & JLU series.
I love JLU, and I think those ladies were handled much muuuuch better than any female character prior to JL. Escpecially Huntress, Shayera and Vixen. However, Dinah was watered down quite a bit so Helena could compete with her, when in reality, Dinah could mop the floor with both Selina and Helena at the same time 😊 thank you for the feedback!
You nailed it. I was sitting here wondering what could possibly be wrong with that masterpiece, but I was disappointed in that particular Catwoman depiction myself. She looked great in costume, and had a beautiful voice thanks to Adrienne's velvety tones. But the blonde 'do lacked the manic dimension of the Pfeiffer look, Michelle rocked these crazy curls, the show was rather plain. I liked the dark hair change, but not the change in the show's overall art. But she just wasn't epic enough, you're right. I like the Catwoman on the 'Harley Quinn' show, she's so legendary it dazzles everyone around her, even hardcore baddies like Ivy. My least favorite version of Catwoman remains the one who killed the Riddler at the end of the Hush cartoon. What? They're friends in the books. He was her Bosley/case handler for a little bit on Gotham City Sirens. She brought him to the villain council in Kingdom Come. Make it make sense.
Boy do I imagine this rubbing you the wrong way. I do have gotten the impression you are quite the Catwoman fan. Was years since I watched BTAS, but I never thought much about how Catwoman featured in it. Which I guess is saying something. The Batman had, if nothing else, a stellar visual design of the character. I always imagined those goggles being nightvision goggles, which would fit a cat-themed persona without superpowers. On a side note, I find The Batman a mixed bag, but my favorite part is their take on Batgirl. Paired with the different by interesting take in Poison Ivy. Loved their story arc.
Fascinating video. Too bad they didn't go for better scripts/designs for Catwoman in "Timm's Universe". I would have loved to see a better development of her character in the JL Unlimited. Since there was an already established arc Batman - Wonder Woman, most ideas, I presume, went to sub-plots like in Shayera- Stewart- Vixen (Which embodied most of Selina's skills). It would have been nice to see, for a change, Catwoman messing with Bruce's head during his duties with the watchtower 😉Very nice video. Keep up the great work! 👍
That would have been far better than the love triangle we got! I wish someone would have thought of that during the production of JL and JLU! Thank you very much! 😊
I get how you a feel a lot. I’m a fan of the character of Plastic Man, and despite a lot of people loving it, I’m not a fan of how he was written in the Brave And The Bold cartoon. So I get that pain, haha
13:18 I’ve been saying this for years now that The Batman handled Catwoman and others like Robin far better then BTAS did which is funny considering how often BTAS fans crap on that show. I know lots of people like to act like BTAS did everything the best and while it did for some characters … Selina was not one of them.
Catwoman in the DCAU DESERVED better making her just a theif who doesnt learn is SO LAME that why I have Long Halloween as my favorite Catwoman Iblove the character of Selina when written well to show that some villains can become better just look at Red Hood
This video was very insightful. I've never really thought about it before now, but I agree that Catwoman in BTAS is surprisingly weak and unskilled. I'd guess this was deliberate so that Batman would always have to save her? That might seem sexist, but I think it may just be part of the _film noir_ tone the show creators were aiming for. Still it would have been nice to see her as a bit less of a damsel-in-distress. I'm guessing the writers were drawing most of their inspiration from the '60s TV version(s) of Catwoman, as well as the Batman Returns version, by which I mean they were all seductive and clever, but not nearly as skilled as later depictions. I'd argue that BTAS Catwoman was stronger and more skilled than those earlier incarnations, so perhaps what we're seeing is a natural evolution of the character. BTAS Catwoman walked so Balent's Catwoman could run, so-to-speak. I still think BTAS Catwoman is wonderful, not just for being part of such a highly regarded show, but her costume design and her voice were iconic.
Her Costume Design is an absolute beauty, and one of Catwoman's best, I can't disagree there. It's just her masculine build and facial structure that worked against the overal look. Oh and just the be clear, I think it's wonderful hat people can appreciate this version so much. I'd much rather people love her in any depiction, rather than hate her. I don't necesarily see it as "sexist" per se, but it does underwhelm Catwoman's character quite a bit. Much more so when compared to the other women in the series. Catwoman had been quite skilled prior to Batman TAS, but I suspect it had more to do with influence from the Michelle Pfeiffer version, which skill wise is almost identical to the Batman TAS version, just put them side by side when fighting Batman and it's pretty clear they wanted to mimic what Burton had done.
Adrienne Barbeau didn't arguably do for Catwoman what Kevin Conroy did for Batman. Eliza Dushku arguably did for Catwoman what Kevin Conroy did for Batman.
What are you talking about? Eliza Dushku is beautiful, but she did absolutely nothing for Catwoman outside of being a big name who provided the voice for the character (next to Gina). The only two who are actually remembered for voicing Catwoman are either Adrienne or Grey. And that's not a knock on Eliza. She's a star in her own right.
These are good points! I was probably too focused on my disappointment with Wonder Woman's lackluster adaptation in Justice League, although I did rather enjoy her often flirting with Batman, in spite of thinking of them as a couple being a terrible idea, if not as terrible as Superman + Wonder Woman being a couple. Meanwhile, Hawkgirl's adaptation was incredible!
I knew I wasn't the only person who thought that the DCAU did Catwoman dirty. I mean, think about it: she only appeared in a few episodes (and those episodes had the weakest stories), and they turned her into some kind of damsel in distress who constantly needed Batman to save her. The saving grace was that her design was pretty sexy. At least until TNBA began, where they completely butchered her design, and after appearing in only two episodes, she never appeared again, not even in the Justice League Unlimited or Batman Beyond. And don't even get me started on how in one of the episodes, she does something completely out of character (something that Catwoman would never do): she allows Batman to ARREST HER AND TAKE HER TO JAIL. .........Do I even have to rant about how bizarre that is?
@@anyalized You're welcome. I agree with you that she wasn't even that beautiful compared to the other women in the series. She had a nice body, but her face was rather bland and plain-looking compared to Andrea Beaumont and Zatanna. I also believe they took all of Ctawoman's charm and sophistication in the comics and gave it all to Harley in the show.
Good video, but in one place, you're wrong. Serum Lake did do a video about Catwoman. In general, his opinions lined up with yours. Also, didn't the show handle most of the major villains badly? Catwoman and the Riddler didn't have any great episodes, the Penguin had one, and Scarecrow was so so until his redesign. On the other hand, some of the minor bad guys came out of it much better than before (Did anyone care about Mr. Freeze before Heart of Ice?).
I stand corrected, thank you for letting me know! I have to watch Serum's take on Catwoman. And yes, Batman tas didn't do much for the rogues gallery, but I would wager that not quite as bad as they did with Selina.. Thank you! :)
Hi, Batman fan here. I'll admit it: I'm not much of a Catwoman fan. At least modern Catwoman. I vastly preferred her in, say, the Bronze Age, heck, I even liked her in stuff like Batman Brave and the Bold (the old purple dress is my favorite costume for her). I like BTAS and always will, flaws and all. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the matter of Catwoman. I never realized how much she was mishandled... (I like the blonde hair though, but that's due to me liking blondes in general).
Thank you for being respectful! I love Batman TAS with passion, Selina's depiction is my only gripe. Blonde Selina doesn't bother me at all, it's her masculine physique (build and jaw) that hurts.
A BIG apology for the lateness of the video!
Life got in the way this week :S
Thank you very much for watching!
I say that overall this version of Catwoman was decent for what it was.
Let's not forget that it was a cartoon about Batman first with Catwoman being a secondary character that was intentionally designed as more of classic 40's Femme Fatale type antagonist rather than an a complex anti-heroine that she was in her own series at the time.
And for what it was it worked imo, it's far from perfect if you wanted for her to be like in her oven series, but the important part that it never effected perception or reputation of the Catwoman in the comics or an outside media in any negative way, and I would argue it helped to generate more interest in the character for generations to come.
Also, believe you me when I say that Catwoman got it easy, with this version being still beloved by many, compared to someone like Lois Lane from STAS who's almost universally disliked😂.
You make a great point! The animated series certainly helped the character reach a wider audience, if perhaps not in the best light haha.
Though Selina had a long history as an antihero by that point, even prior to her own series, which is why it's confusing that they chose the more negative-villanous side of her. I'm probably being picky with Catwoman, but can we at least agree Harley was handled better? :D
And you are very right about Lois too! although she has always had that "army brat" side of her, but maybe not to the degree depicted in Superman The animated series.
@anyalized Well, Harley was an orginal character made by BTAS team. so biases were inevitable.
Yet Harley was shown to be the least bright and the most subservient out of all female characters, and even Talia didn't had a wants and goals outside of her relationship with her father and Batman.
While Selina was always a character of her own, unapologetically honest with herself, she's a thrill-seeking thief who does what she wants without a care in the world, and she didn't let anyone, not even the guy she really liked, to force her to be what she doesn't wanted to be.
Maybe not the best Catwoman, but damn it's a pretty solid female character and a cool complex villian if you ask me.
Also, I would say that STAS Lois is more of a spolied city girl than anything.
I have NEVER heard anyone talk bad about STAS Lois lane
edit (typo I meant heard anyone talk bad about Lois)
@@Galvatronover Oooh don't tempt me! 😂
@@Galvatronover ever since my adventures with Superman made tomboy Lois a thing the “Lois discourse” started being a big thing
What happened to TAS Catwoman almost sounds like someone had actual malice for her and thus made her the opposite of her comic book version. Thanks for reminding me that Adrienne Boob--whoops, I mean Barbeau--voiced Catwoman. I still love how in Cannonball Run, Adrienne's character would flash her cleavage to get out of a ticket by a male cop, only to have it fail when the cop is a female and played by Valerie Perrine, who also has considerable cleavage to show off. Excellent presentation!
Hahaha Adrienne is Lovely! Did you know she once did a play with two other male actors where they would act the entire play fully nude? And one of the reviews had the audacity to say "these actors are not sexy at all, but at least they have energy!" or something along those lines ha! I you ever come across a black and white photo of her with two men staring at her, that's the one! And now I have to see Cannonball run haha I've only seen her in Creepshow, Swampthing, Carnivale and The Fog. Thank you very much! :)
It's an all-star cast. Well, this was in the early 1980s. It's a movie that makes you think, "What's he or she doing here?" Plus, Adrienne drives a slick, black Lamborghini Countach that looks like it could be a Batmobile. I was reading a bunch of car magazines as a young boy, and it was a toss-up between what would be my first reaction: "Whoa, boobies!" or "That's a Lamborghini Countach, badass!"
@@anyalized ayo
I liked the OG Selina design her downgrad....noooooo. seriously what the heck
We have the same thoughts mostly. I love BTAS, but Selina seemed "off" on the show. You hit the nail right on the head. Good job
I appreciate that! Thank you! :)
Oh my god, I don’t know how I never realized all the “Catwoman” episodes had some of the weakest animation and were rather lackluster overall. I love “Almost Got ‘Em” and Batgirl Returns, though the latter is more a Batgirl ep. I too was a big fan of the Balent Catwoman series, but I actually liked the gray suit design. They “ruined” pretty much all the female characters with the redesign 😭 of the New Adventures.
Just discovered your channel, keep up the good and insightful work 👍
Thank you very much! Agreed, while I love Batman the new adventures, that series did a big disservice to the female characters, save for Batgirl, Montoya or Harley who came out on the winning side. And I too love the grey suit she wore prior to the Purple 90's. Minus the "street walker" part hehe
What's the Balent Catwoman series?
@@anyalized What's the "street walker" part?
@@anyalized I think it would be hard even for them to mess up Harley Quinn, but then again they somehow managed to mess up the joker 😱 My only issue with the new Batgirl would be how tiny they made her look.
@@trevturp6891 The modern version of Catwoman was introduced by Frank Miller as a prostitute, I use the term "street walker" so it doesn't sound as bad. I'm sorry for the confusion! as for the Jim Balent version, that's the 90's version of Catwoman from her first solo ongoing series. Hope that helps!
Lore of The Biggest FLAW in BATMAN TAS momentum 100
Actually rewatching Batman TAS. Started to wonder is it me or was Catwoman and other characters done dirty. Now I realize nope wasn’t just me
Yes! Thank you!
I love the DCAU but I admit that I don’t like the portrayals of some characters. Though i feel like while Catwoman got it bad i think Croc got it worse since they basically made him an evil monster who manipulates people to his advantage.
You got a point there, yes! I guess I didn't pay much attention to Waylon. Thank you for pointing that out!
@@anyalized You’re welcome, not really your fault anyway since this is a Catwoman centered video. Plus Waylon got some good stories tie in comics of BTAS from what I heard.
Strongly agree on Balent's Catwoman comics: a solid depiction of the character. However, I can't agree on her being "average" or other female characters from B:TAS being more attractive than her.
That's alright :) I guess we see things a little differently. Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
@@anyalized I loved Jim Balent
Always one of my favorite series but never saw it as the power house of comic animation that it is! Excellent video as always, Justice for CatWoman!
Thank you so much! :)
Okay everything you said was true. These were some serious flaws of Catwoman in Batman TAS especially in TNBA!
I love your work. Keep it up👍👍👍👍👍
Thank you very much! :)
Catwoman's my favorite character. To me, writers always struggle with Selina, when they make her too ambiguous. Not quite a love interest, not quite an antagonist, not quite a hero, etc. In BTAS, making her an animal rights activist, was a nice touch. But she should've gotten a proper origin story episode. That scrapped BTAS episode starring her and Black Canary, could've been awesome. And I would've loved to have seen Bruce and Selina actually date and team-up, in more episodes. There were a lot of missed opportunities, for this version of Catwoman to be even more iconic. My favorite Catwoman episode was Cult of the Cat. Adrienne Barbeau was really fun, funny, and quippy in that one.
This! exactly! Thank you!
Love to hear your opinion on Catwoman in the Arkham series.
Oh! I hadn't even thought about doing a video on that version, but sure, it could be fun!
@@anyalized hi
When I saw Catwoman as a kid.. she was a bit of a wildcard. She kinda confused me. I couldn't decide whether she was a hero or villain. Probably...would you say she's the first.."anti-hero" in my life?? The one thing that stood out was Her love for cats...
I liked her suit design but I never like her face design glad I'm not the only one as for her character in the batman animated series yeah I agree. I feel like her character was quite interesting in her year one comic as well as the batman year one movie. Do you have any thoughts?
It was meant to be a midground between something animatable and Michelle Pfeiffer's costume from Batman Returns.
Yes! Yes! Yes! The Batman Tas suit is one of my favorites, it's elegant, and practical as well as seductive, but her face just seems a little too masculine, especially when compared to the other gotham ladies :( And about the Year One version.. I supose I will eventually talk about it, but I must admit, while I do appreciate the grey suit, the Falcone connection, and the addition of Holly, I'm just not fond of the s*x worker aspect. Not to knock on those who that for a living. I respect anyone who makes an honest living!
@anyalized Interesting point on the s*x work part I admit I was somewhat uncomfortable with that part but I think it also shows how hard her life was growing up in Gotham which has always been depicted as a pretty corrupt and criminally overrun city which really adds another layer of depth to her character.
Naw, the biggest flaw is the show is the Bruce&,Barbara ship. But yeah I did have some issues with her, especially in the last season when it came to how they handled her relationship with Bruce.
Good point! The Batman-Batgirl pairing is wrong on far too many levels.
I agree about this version of Catwoman being unremarkable but I think you were quite a bit harsh when comparing her to other female characters. Though I understand your frustration because I'm also disappointed with the current way Catwoman has been written in her own comic recently. I don't know if you've read it or not but to summarize, she's been turned into a villain (again), albeit an incompetent one and she's also gotten manipulated by other villains to target Batman.
I also agree with you that Jim Balent's Catwoman, despite the voluptuous body, big melons and the pin-up poses, she was the peak Catwoman even if many will say that it was Brubaker. I love her origins in #0, her curly, wavy and voluminous hair which I've grown a soft spot, the heists AND the fact that she was absolutely unfazed and uninterested in the advances that male characters made on her (or rather hyper-independence, which is something that is explored in her #0 origin story.)
Honestly, I hope a writer or artist will bring the long curly hair back and her purple costume. Though I will take the grey from the BTAS to symbolize the grey area she works in. I can't say I'm a fan of her all black leather because it makes her look too similar to Black Cat. Her pixie cut I don't mind, though the way it is drawn can be either ugly or pretty depending on the artist.
Anyway, enough of my ramblings. Do you have an honest opinion of her origin (or rather origins) and what's your favorite one?
I love Balent
Please ramble as much as you like! I appreciate the feedback, especially the one written as well as yours.
I'm sorry if I was too harsh! Believe me, I didn't want to come off that way. But It's just both furstrating and disapointing seeing how good Harley had it, when Selina and Ivy (who both had to work their way up to success) got scraps, when they deserved the kind of favorable treatment that Harley got.
I actually stopped reading Catwoman a while ago. As it was just dreadful reading what they had done to Selina. I really really reeeeally want to talk about modern Catwoman, as there is just too much to work with, but I don't remember if it was either Perch or thinking critical, that mentioned that bad talking the current Comics puts you in some sort of "black list", and that kinda scares me a little. So I will limit myself to anything before rebirth.
Also, you're right, the "gentlemen magazine" pin up poses and tripple G size breasts could turn people away from the 90's comic. But she was such a joy to read. Despite her "bad girl art" inspired looks, she was written as intelligent, always capable of handling herself and always in control. She wasn't sleeping around (not judging those who do). Unlike the newer one, who embodies everything wrong with comics.
Absolutely! her Pixie cute can look good when drawn by artists who don't think of her as a masculine woman. People often underestimate just how feminine Selina is, despite her strength and willful character.
About her "Origin", thanks for adding the "s" at the end, as she does have multiple variations. This might piss some people off, and I'm sorry, but the prostitution aspect of her origin never made any sense to me. A woman that smart, determined and independent, with that much skill (even before trainning) would not have resorted to that line of work. She was already a thief since childhood. She could have survived that way without selling her body for a few bucks. Especially under such an abusive and disgusting pimp like "Stan". Again, I love everything else. The armless Master angle. The inclusion of Holly and Maggie, etc.
Just my two cents! Thank you once again for taking the time to share your thoughts! :)
@@anyalizedCatwoman sleeping around is not as common as you would think. Most of her love interests tend to appear in one specific story and then never show up again. The others tend to be more shallow/less developed ones. They tend to appear just to flirt with Selina or to give her romantic/sexual tension. And these love interests will later get discarded by the same writer or the next one. I feel like some people think that because Catwoman is a sexual character then it means she's also promiscuous. I mean, Bayonetta shares similar character traits with her. She flirts, she makes innuendos, she wears sexy clothes, but you don't see her sleep around.
And yes, one of the reasons why I love Selina is for her femininity. I often look at the 90s Supermodels fashion and that's how I imagine my Selina to carry herself, with style.
And as for her supporting cast, it's kind of annoying at how inconsistent it is. Holly Robinson is arguably the most well developed Catwoman supporting character thanks to Ed Brubaker, but her character took a complete 180° turn when Tom King wrote her and has been made a villain against Selina. As for Maggie, I personally like for Selina to have a sister, someone who's been there with her since the beginning, but Maggie is a character who is unfortunately a plot device. Her only use is to be a target to Selina's enemies and then she gets fridged. Ted Grant is also my favorite trainer for a younger Selina. I wish their dynamic had been explored more on her origin story.
This is a good point. TAS Catwoman wasn't memorable at all.
Yeah, aside from her excellent catsuit, she is remembered for not the best reasons. Thanks for not getting mad at me!
Great video! I'm glad someone finally pointed this out. I think the DCAU dropped the ball on a LOT of characters, but Catwoman is the most egregious. But is it a surprise? I have an old fanzine called 'Comicology' where Bruce Timm admits that he never liked the DC characters, and vastly prefers Marvel.
One thing I never get is people saying the animated version is "based on Michelle Pfieffer". Other than the blonde hair, I don't see it. Where's those Pfieffer cheekbones? I always thought she looked more like Lana Turner - which may be the key to how Timm sees Catwoman - as a generic film noir "dame" who's always in over her head.
Oh my, that's a huge bummer, but it would explain a lot.. I have only seen the beautiful cover featuring the Robins, so thank you for sharing that info! And yes, it doesn't look like michelle at all. But Didn't Warner demand they make her a blonde to coincide with Batman Returns? That part has been repeated so many times it has since become an accepted truth. The BTAS team have opnely spoken how they were forced to rush the production of "The Cat and the Claw", to capitalize on "Batman Returns". Which is why the first part was aired as the first episode, when "On Leather Wings" was supposed to be the first. Oh and Thank you very much!
@@anyalized fr
@@anyalized Oh, I'm glad you knew what I was talking about! I wish someone would scan that and post it online, I think it would open a lot of people's eyes to the fact that Timm is not the Messiah of the DCU - he's not even a fan of it! Also check out Comics Scene #32 from 1995 (with Sylvester Stallone as Judge Dredd on the cover) where he says Wonder Woman is "a terrible character" and he doesn't like female characters in general because they have to be "sensitive". As for WB saying Catwoman had to look like Michelle, there must be SOME truth to it, since the original design had her long black hair, but if so, why is what she's wearing nowhere near the awesome Burton-designed goth black vinyl BDSM costume? She's basically wearing the Mazzuchelli-designed costume (which is ripped off from Miss Fury) with Julie Newmar's belt.
Wait, he likes Marvel more than DC? They why the hell didn't he try and make a 'Marvel Animated Universe' there?
@@scifiguy9000 Because he was already working at Warner Brothers on Tiny Toons. Plus, can you see a cheapskate like Avi Arad hiring him away from WB?
You’re forgetting Batman the Brave and the Bold
But I did mentioned Batman BATB in the video.. I love that show, and I love this one too.. just not this part.
Good catch,I never noticed these things during it's first run ( I haven't re-watched the series in years ) but,I may have to go back for a nostalgic look see. I too liked the Jim Balent drawn Cat-Woman comics,good stuff back then. What do you think of the female super-heroes from the animated Bruce Timm JL & JLU series.
I love JLU, and I think those ladies were handled much muuuuch better than any female character prior to JL. Escpecially Huntress, Shayera and Vixen. However, Dinah was watered down quite a bit so Helena could compete with her, when in reality, Dinah could mop the floor with both Selina and Helena at the same time 😊 thank you for the feedback!
@@anyalized You're welcome.Keep-up the good work.
You nailed it. I was sitting here wondering what could possibly be wrong with that masterpiece, but I was disappointed in that particular Catwoman depiction myself. She looked great in costume, and had a beautiful voice thanks to Adrienne's velvety tones. But the blonde 'do lacked the manic dimension of the Pfeiffer look, Michelle rocked these crazy curls, the show was rather plain. I liked the dark hair change, but not the change in the show's overall art. But she just wasn't epic enough, you're right. I like the Catwoman on the 'Harley Quinn' show, she's so legendary it dazzles everyone around her, even hardcore baddies like Ivy.
My least favorite version of Catwoman remains the one who killed the Riddler at the end of the Hush cartoon. What? They're friends in the books. He was her Bosley/case handler for a little bit on Gotham City Sirens. She brought him to the villain council in Kingdom Come. Make it make sense.
Oh yes! Hush's Catwoman is quite terrible as well. Jennifer Morrison is quite a mismatch in the role!
Boy do I imagine this rubbing you the wrong way. I do have gotten the impression you are quite the Catwoman fan.
Was years since I watched BTAS, but I never thought much about how Catwoman featured in it. Which I guess is saying something.
The Batman had, if nothing else, a stellar visual design of the character. I always imagined those goggles being nightvision goggles, which would fit a cat-themed persona without superpowers.
On a side note, I find The Batman a mixed bag, but my favorite part is their take on Batgirl. Paired with the different by interesting take in Poison Ivy. Loved their story arc.
Fascinating video. Too bad they didn't go for better scripts/designs for Catwoman in "Timm's Universe". I would have loved to see a better development of her character in the JL Unlimited. Since there was an already established arc Batman - Wonder Woman, most ideas, I presume, went to sub-plots like in Shayera- Stewart- Vixen (Which embodied most of Selina's skills). It would have been nice to see, for a change, Catwoman messing with Bruce's head during his duties with the watchtower 😉Very nice video. Keep up the great work! 👍
That would have been far better than the love triangle we got! I wish someone would have thought of that during the production of JL and JLU! Thank you very much! 😊
@@anyalized hi
They really dropped the yarn ball with Selena smh
I agree so much with this tho i will say I love her tnba casual design so much its peak.
Oh yes, the basic idea is brilliant, it's just her face and head shape I don't like :D
@@anyalized same here. I do appreciate how Gotham Girls/the comics got rid of the weird pale makeup stuff
I get how you a feel a lot. I’m a fan of the character of Plastic Man, and despite a lot of people loving it, I’m not a fan of how he was written in the Brave And The Bold cartoon. So I get that pain, haha
I feel your pain :(
13:18 I’ve been saying this for years now that The Batman handled Catwoman and others like Robin far better then BTAS did which is funny considering how often BTAS fans crap on that show. I know lots of people like to act like BTAS did everything the best and while it did for some characters … Selina was not one of them.
Oh yes, for all the hate the 2004 Batman gets, it certainly handled a lot of the characters far better than Btas :)
Catwoman in the DCAU DESERVED better making her just a theif who doesnt learn is SO LAME that why I have Long Halloween as my favorite Catwoman Iblove the character of Selina when written well to show that some villains can become better just look at Red Hood
That's a very good point!
@@anyalized thanks for the video because I HATE when people just see Selina as a theif with no depth bro she has SO MUCH development
This video was very insightful. I've never really thought about it before now, but I agree that Catwoman in BTAS is surprisingly weak and unskilled. I'd guess this was deliberate so that Batman would always have to save her? That might seem sexist, but I think it may just be part of the _film noir_ tone the show creators were aiming for. Still it would have been nice to see her as a bit less of a damsel-in-distress.
I'm guessing the writers were drawing most of their inspiration from the '60s TV version(s) of Catwoman, as well as the Batman Returns version, by which I mean they were all seductive and clever, but not nearly as skilled as later depictions. I'd argue that BTAS Catwoman was stronger and more skilled than those earlier incarnations, so perhaps what we're seeing is a natural evolution of the character. BTAS Catwoman walked so Balent's Catwoman could run, so-to-speak.
I still think BTAS Catwoman is wonderful, not just for being part of such a highly regarded show, but her costume design and her voice were iconic.
Respectfully disagree
Her Costume Design is an absolute beauty, and one of Catwoman's best, I can't disagree there. It's just her masculine build and facial structure that worked against the overal look. Oh and just the be clear, I think it's wonderful hat people can appreciate this version so much. I'd much rather people love her in any depiction, rather than hate her.
I don't necesarily see it as "sexist" per se, but it does underwhelm Catwoman's character quite a bit. Much more so when compared to the other women in the series. Catwoman had been quite skilled prior to Batman TAS, but I suspect it had more to do with influence from the Michelle Pfeiffer version, which skill wise is almost identical to the Batman TAS version, just put them side by side when fighting Batman and it's pretty clear they wanted to mimic what Burton had done.
@@anyalized Anya, I also disliked the way they handled her animal-rights side
Adrienne Barbeau didn't arguably do for Catwoman what Kevin Conroy did for Batman. Eliza Dushku arguably did for Catwoman what Kevin Conroy did for Batman.
What are you talking about? Eliza Dushku is beautiful, but she did absolutely nothing for Catwoman outside of being a big name who provided the voice for the character (next to Gina). The only two who are actually remembered for voicing Catwoman are either Adrienne or Grey. And that's not a knock on Eliza. She's a star in her own right.
@@anyalized Grey Delisle is the one true voice of Catwoman.
@@jasonvazquez8652 And what did I say? "Adrienne or Grey".
@@anyalized, I think you said Adrienne. But for me personally, Grey is my favorite.
These are good points! I was probably too focused on my disappointment with Wonder Woman's lackluster adaptation in Justice League, although I did rather enjoy her often flirting with Batman, in spite of thinking of them as a couple being a terrible idea, if not as terrible as Superman + Wonder Woman being a couple. Meanwhile, Hawkgirl's adaptation was incredible!
Yes! JL made a Star out of Hawkgirl, and yes! JL did drop the ball on Wonder woman as well :(
At 11:09😟DaAng...anndd at 11:14 😱DAANNGG!!!!
I know :(
Are you Lois from family guy
More like Meg hahaha
I knew I wasn't the only person who thought that the DCAU did Catwoman dirty. I mean, think about it: she only appeared in a few episodes (and those episodes had the weakest stories), and they turned her into some kind of damsel in distress who constantly needed Batman to save her. The saving grace was that her design was pretty sexy. At least until TNBA began, where they completely butchered her design, and after appearing in only two episodes, she never appeared again, not even in the Justice League Unlimited or Batman Beyond. And don't even get me started on how in one of the episodes, she does something completely out of character (something that Catwoman would never do): she allows Batman to ARREST HER AND TAKE HER TO JAIL. .........Do I even have to rant about how bizarre that is?
Exactly! Thank you for pointing that out!
@@anyalized You're welcome. I agree with you that she wasn't even that beautiful compared to the other women in the series. She had a nice body, but her face was rather bland and plain-looking compared to Andrea Beaumont and Zatanna.
I also believe they took all of Ctawoman's charm and sophistication in the comics and gave it all to Harley in the show.
Good video, but in one place, you're wrong. Serum Lake did do a video about Catwoman. In general, his opinions lined up with yours.
Also, didn't the show handle most of the major villains badly? Catwoman and the Riddler didn't have any great episodes, the Penguin had one, and Scarecrow was so so until his redesign. On the other hand, some of the minor bad guys came out of it much better than before (Did anyone care about Mr. Freeze before Heart of Ice?).
I stand corrected, thank you for letting me know! I have to watch Serum's take on Catwoman. And yes, Batman tas didn't do much for the rogues gallery, but I would wager that not quite as bad as they did with Selina.. Thank you! :)
@@anyalized You're welcome.
Hi, Batman fan here. I'll admit it: I'm not much of a Catwoman fan. At least modern Catwoman. I vastly preferred her in, say, the Bronze Age, heck, I even liked her in stuff like Batman Brave and the Bold (the old purple dress is my favorite costume for her).
I like BTAS and always will, flaws and all. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the matter of Catwoman. I never realized how much she was mishandled...
(I like the blonde hair though, but that's due to me liking blondes in general).
Thank you for being respectful! I love Batman TAS with passion, Selina's depiction is my only gripe. Blonde Selina doesn't bother me at all, it's her masculine physique (build and jaw) that hurts.
@@anyalized I can understand that. Catwoman is meant to be sexy, after all.