I recently sold most of my gear because I'm a bit burned out. I spent 3 months A/B testing my gear so I could keep my favorite setup and all my DS dacs sounded the same. There's a difference between DS, R2R and Chord but all DS dacs are the same. If I had to do it again I would just choose the dac that matched the aesthetic of my amp.
I would just get a DAC in the $200-$400 range and end the search for at least maybe 5-10 years. One of my DACs is from the early 2000s and it still sounds good.
Resonated with me as well. My budget system is a Topping E30 and a TubeCube 7 from Tubedepot driving KEF Q150 near-field on my desk with home made stands and it can play things that can make me experience emotions. Job done. One day I will change to a bigger tube amp, and another day I hope to get a decent R2R DAC but I wont feel the need to upgrade to a "chip" dac.
Yes, you are right Zeos👍, the dimminishing returns starts really low by dacs.. I made similar test with 10,- 100,- 1000,- dacs.. the difference between the 10 and 100 was clear hearable (audible noise, weak bass), but between 100 and 1000 was really small...
yes, only that a 100 DAC has other problems people are reporting. connection issues, sound drops, software problems, longevity problems, heating, noise after some time, imbalance in channels after some time and so on. Cheap is cheap.
The sweet spot I think would be $500-1000. Solid build, solid sound, enough features, will last a lifetime. I feel cheaper and the volume knobs are too loose and could fail after a couple years and little problems like that because most are made in china.
@@arnis8650 yes, you are right👍, I used in the 100 to 200 category dongle dacs (s9 pro, ua5), they were not so good as the higher priced (chord mojo2, earmen traduto, cambridge 851n) but the differences were really subtle.. so I thing the 300 to 600,- dacs are good enough for 99% of people
@@olimphus26the sweet spot is $10k to about $30k for high end systems. When you get to R2R it is companies like MSB that are leading the way. Everything is made in house. Rokna uses the old MSB modules.
I wouldn't say "the least important", I'd say "the least important to upgrade". the jump from motherboard DAC is really big, but another upgrade is almost never worth it
Is the jump from motherboard that big? Do tell. I just bought a Topping A90 Discrete(100% off Z Review recommend) and have no DAC aside from the laptop to feed it
This is the exact reason at a certain point with these dac amps, I may as well begin listening to the differences via speakers exclusively. Any changes to these dac amps won't be realized thru cans, but speakers. That's why I no longer have a home headphone station...headphones on the go, speakers at the crib
This isn't like the 80s and 90s, when almost all DACs (internal or otherwise) were dogshit and we were all fighting for our lives every day; almost everything past $100 is golden. What really matters among high-end DACs is features.
I bought the SMSL VMV D1 based on your review back in 2019. I still have it. Just missing a few features but it MAY be time soon to change but for now it works and I can wait.
Indeed, I'd rather SMSL have maybe FIVE DACs and put enough time and engineering into them alone instead of thinking they need to come out with a new DAC ever two weeks. It gets stupid and ridiculous. I mean Shenzen Audio kept the Denafrips to about three models of various prices, and they have all had great reviews. If you do something right the first time, you don't have to redesign it until maybe 5 years have passed to take advantage of any new technology or manufacturing techniques.
If you don’t need balanced connectivity (which I don’t) and you are only using USB (which I am), sounds like it would be hard to justify anything more expensive than the Schiit $129 Modi DAC.
I have a Topping E50 for both of my stacks and I don't feel any need to upgrade either of them. The only 2 features I could think of to gain would be bluetooth capability and maybe the better power cord connection.
I typically buy DACs based upon their I/O and price. The only external DAC that I've heard that actually sounds noticeably different to me was my original Schiit Modi 2 non-uber. Since I upgraded that, I haven't been able to tell much of a difference in all the other DACs I've tried. IMHO, the biggest upgrade was going from USB to Optical. Not because it sounds better, but because sound device drivers suck. I'm currently using a SMSL SU-8 and a THX 789, and I couldn't be much happier with the pair.
@@holdencaulfied7492 When you switch from copper based transmission methods to light based, you eliminate issues like cross talk, EMI, and other forms of noise. In addition, devices that output optical audio do not typically need drivers to work. There are some downsides with using optical, but the upsides are worth it if you don't like dealing with those issues.
So glad you made this rant, it felt like I was over thinking my setup, but people don't know what to look for, or understand what I'm trying to do with my setup. So it's difficult to talk to anybody about this. All I need is a good DAC with HDMI I/O, and RCA with L/R Audio outputs. It can even have XLR, this is for a home entertainment system featuring an older high-end AV reciever. I don't really see the purpose in getting a really expensive DAC, $500 is more than enough for what I'm putting together. I think I got it figuredout now and possibly saved a lot of money to boot, the hard part is finding a DAC with a good sampling rate...
True for 95% of us. I bought mojo 2 because it have the inputs I need, great headphone amp, desktop or portable AND a good EQ witch is very important to me because every amp and headphones gonna sound less good with certain tracks (mastering). EQ is the simplest way of helping that and make listening more enjoyable (Or even bearable ;). No DAC - even at 10k- will ever "fix" mastering eq problems and inconsistencies.
I personally run all of my music through a DAW running 32 bit 192khz so I can put whatever effects/eq I want and it only cost me 200 bucks... The only problem is the time it takes to make it work. Oh yeah and I can also record anything going to my ears and remaster it to my liking in real time.
Oh headphone listeners. I remember thinking the ifi idsd black label was really expensive. I went all the way up to the abyss AB-1266 TC with chord TT2 and mscaler then bartok with XI Audio formula s and powerman. Come to the dark side with speakers. $10k dacs are just getting into the pool. They go up past $100k.
Z...I got into this whole thing when you said ZEN DACs are all you need. At the time the V2 came out, and bam! Been on the V2. Since then they've gotten a GTO filter that sounds thicker and paired with an Asgard 3 makes them sound enveloping on the bassy planar headphones. I'm good now. Thank you sir. 🥰
@@holdencaulfied7492 I recently upgraded to the DO200. It’s a warm sounding dual ESS chip Dac like the E70. Honestly the ZEN DAC V2 is warmer. There’s slightly more air and spatial qualities to these ESS DACs. The vocals are warmer and closer on the zen dac. I had a lot of doubt about whether higher end dacs would have improvements. The improvements are there, and personally I think it was worth it, just not the ‘wow’ level of improvement. I’d say if you have a pair of headphone you really wanted, that would take priority. Just know, no matter how many reviewers say the E70 and DO200 are warm, the ZEN DACs are even more so. The bass might slightly be flatter on the Zen Dac. That’s about it. 👍
I have a Schiit Modi 3+ and my Arcam Amp has an ESS 9016, I honstly can't tell the difference, they are both great... In todays world, anything past $100+ for desktop and $50+ for dongle DACS and you are just fine. No need for more.
I think that humans have very different hearing, tastes and preferences...ranging from those who are virtually deaf through to those who are hyper sensitive, to bass, mids or treble frequencies etc, etc! Therefore the more impaired a persons hearing might be .. the cheaper the whole hifi journey and experience can become 🤣😂😂😂😂
Zeos, I believe that your belief that DACs are the least useful part of your system to be valid, and useful for you. that's why you return to it and the idea becomes stronger. For me, my DAC is the most important part of my system. because I also believe that we can believe wrong things in a way that helps us. because believing that music is making me happy is why music is making me happy.
How come nobody ever shits on Dolby Atmos or 360 Sound, But aggressively attack MQA? It’s an OPTION if people want to use it or not, just like the others. That’s the real conspiracy. People really need to grow up, especially in this hobby. Many live to complain about irrelevant champagne problems. Do we complain there’s hundreds of different flat screen TVs that simply grow an inch every year and may offer another Fire TV streaming option? We should be happy that we even have all the affordable high quality choices. Otherwise we may be stuck with wood, sheet metal, and plastic DACs that never change any and takes forever to get.
Because MQA is demonstrably LOSSY. That's why. Even engineer wunderkind Bob Carver wrote a white paper about it. And given the speeds of the modern Internet there's simply no need for it here in 2023. Even Neil Young sued to stop his albums from being classified as "Masters" on Tidal if they were encoded with MQA. No, it isn't exactly "snake oil" but there's little to recommend it. The thing is, all DACs supporting it have to pay a license fee for that which is of course passed on to the consumer. So, all things being equal, I'd rather have a quality DAC that doesn't have it.
What ROSS said and also Atmos and 360 sound you can actually hear it doing something. Even if it isn't improving fidelity its changing how you listen and expanding to multiple speakers in atmos. Or processing to sound like a bigger sound field in 2 channel. But they aren't lying to you too much.
Interesting perspective. I'm wondering if by playing these DACs via headphones you've reached a point of diminishing returns more quickly. I've watched so many DAC reviews lately. A few reviewers described the increasingly subtle differences between these later SMSL DACs by its soundstage, depth, sound placement, airyness, etc etc. I'm thinking the subtle differences they described may be best noticed (if at all) with speakers particularly with factors such as speaker placement (height/separation), sound projection, reflections, room acoustics, and so on. I don't know if what I'm saying have any relevance. I'm just spitballing here. Thanks, I do enjoy your videos.
I feel like adding room nodes and other oddities to the setup could only make it harder. Honestly going with some expensive IEMs would be the best best way. Get that music as close to your brain as possible..
@@ZReviews Maybe. I do agree it occurs in the brain. The way we perceive music. When I was younger, I enjoyed going to live Latin and jazz singer spots. Headphones have never recreated that authentic acoustic sound for me. Although I do recall a pair of high priced B&W bookshelves, class A amp and reel2reel setup with proper placement and distance came pretty close. It recreated the soundstage, depth, dynamics and energy. I haven't really listened to expensive audio gear so I may be way off base. Thanks for your response.
Pairing matters more, then technicalities. I know Z reviews are more based on emotions and spontaneity which is a nice addition to all the available reviews. But I Z could compare enough with various frequency responses transducers as well as speaking about lows mids, highs, soundstage, vocals. R2R vs Delta sigma. I thought some dacs enhance some qualities more than others. Though it's true that SMSL do release too many and similar dacs, all looking the same.
I've gone through 7-8 Dacs ranging from $100 to $450 in search of the features I want. I finally settled on the Topping E70. I love that big readable display from 10 feet away.
I've dropped by from time of time and I didn't get; just wandered off thinking what the hell was that! But today I got it! That was a brilliant, entertaining and glorious rant which cut through all the bull💩 that other reviewers spread about what they can 'hear'. Especially appreciate the encouragement not to spend fortune or fall prey to the endless self deception that this or that new shiny will fill the aching void in my life! So I Subscribed, which realistically won't move the dial for you but is a big surprise to me! Kudos Zeos ps. (I look forward to the moment when you do hit on the thing that will fill the aching void, oh Oracle.)
That's why I sold the supposedly very good SMSL M500 mk3 and replaced it with one built with TDA1541. Later, I bought a module in which I can alternately use the PCM63 / AD1865 or PCM58 chips. Additionally, I built myself a DAC based on the TDA1540 chip. I compared them to Denafrips Ares II and even the new DAC lost to them in terms of sound presentation.
This is why I think DAC's should do more. Like the RME ADI-2 DAC FS lets us do a significant amount of sound shaping and audio equalization in the DAC itself. That made it worth the price for me.
A friend of my brought over his new RME ADI-2 DAC to compare with my L.K.S DAC I bought from China HiFi for about the same price. With all its equalization glory we were both disappointed with the RME DAC.
@@Franky2A3 As it should be. RME is quite linear and flat in terms of sound, with good resolution and dynamics. It is cool for its customization, functionality, good USB and compactness/design.
Just say no to more Chi-fi DACs. These Chinese companies coming out with a "new" or "upgraded" version every week is just a sign of a dysfunctional market that need to stop.
I used to be a salesman back in the 80s selling HiFi equipment and I remember JVC had a great turntable but they had just brought out tthe latest version so the day it arrived I pulled it out of the box to put on display only to find it was exactly the same as the previous version but with a small square of yellow paint around the speed change button and a new model number. It was 20 pound more too, I was horrified but worst still people perfered to have the latest version and I sold them by the bucket load. Thats good marketing for you lol
Bought the Dac-X6 five years ago when It was all the rage. Didn't bother upgrading it until I got a Focusrite Solo that sounds noticeably brighter. I'm now using the Topping Dx1 and have zero thought about upgrading it since it's basically near-perfect already and in the future I'll just buy an amp if my future headphone needs it.
"The Aune X8 Magic DAC with the swappable..." [proceeds to milk an invisible teet in search of the cure to aphasia] "...opamp..." That's why I tune in.
The one thing about dacs is that good old fashioned R2Rs and companies like Chord are the exception to the rule. But the majority of these kinds of dacs have always been expensive, they never got cheap. Delta-Sigma dacs used to be terrible but they have closed the gap so far that a 200$ dac gets you 98% of what you need so the diminishing returns on high class 800$+ dacs just gets even worse over time. I've gotten some really nice dongle dacs recently with some of them using cirrus logic chips now and while the spacial imaging still isn't quite as good as my main setup, it has shown me that delta-sigma dacs have made a LOT of ground to the point I practically don't care anymore.
@@GG-xi5pd That's actually a pretty tough question to answer but usually if someone is aiming for a 200$ price point I'd usually say to go for something like Moonriver 2. It may be a dongle dac/amp but it comfortably competes with desktop dacs at the same price range and on top of that has better than average amplification in comparison to other dongle dacs. This is one of the ones with the CS logic chips and they definitely have their own characteristics that differ from both AKM and ES Chips. In the Moonriver's implementation, it does a really good job with accurate imaging and an audible depth to the soundstage that I don't often hear very well with delta-sigma's but it still isn't perfect. You may notice the soundstage is almost box shaped at times, but the point is, its insanely good at its job for what this costs. I'm not gonna say you can't find something just as good on a better deal though, this was just my experience with the gear I own.
Have a node 2i and just bought a J2 AK4499 w/ sparkos op amps on RCA … hope it was worth the change, not sure after watching this video. Great info btw, love your style.
i make music and recently i bought a new external soundcard (fom ua volt 2 to motu ultralite mk5), and i can tell you a dac is important, eventually all things in a chain are..
using a Fosi Audio DS2 as my dac on my pc into a IFI Zen Air Can for a budget setup, this has the added bonus that I can always scoop up the DS2 for my phone when in travel, using 3.5mm to rca for interconnect, yea there are probally cheeper ways to get simmilar amp power and dac quality but I got both items fairly well disconted so woked out 170ish aussie dolery total
There was SOMETHING.. It was so slight I almost can't confirm I heard it. It was so slight that It was worth literally what I tacked onto the end... A groaning sound.
I bought 2 dacs in my life, a $110 dac for home and a $130 dongle dac. I primarily use speakers so wouldn't be able to hear differences between dacs. My planar M570 does pick out differences between my 2 dacs but I don't care. Either are outstanding over no dac.
I always had amp + dac combos and when I upgraded those I got ”wow” moments. But everyone says noooo you need to get a proper standalone dac so finally I did. A 1000 dollar/euro one. There was no ”wow” moment. Initially it maybe even sounded a bit worse than the built in one… I’m now in the camp that dacs don’t matter.
For $500-$1000 you might as well get a MiniDSP Flex 8 channel with Dirac room correction. Just wish they started making DACs with multiple toslink inputs as I've never had a scenario where I would use USB or Coax
Ya it's gotten bad, like sure release new DACs but c'mon cant they engineer atleast different boxes or features. Its always the same screens or identical remotes throw alittle flair into the mix or something like the only thing u need to know is what are u using it for? Do u want it balanced? Do u need or want Bluetooth and do u need a remote?
You are so spot on! 😁 ... Expectation bias or psychoacoustic foolery or hey I need a 2k dac because I have an amp and speakers worth 15k ! Look at it this way, why care about a fool and his money! 💰
This makes me think about how Richard Dawkins talks about evolution. With every new generation, you can't see a difference from parents to children, but go back long enough and suddenly grandpa is a fish. Maybe in the distant future, smsl dacs will look like fish to us.
A big leap will be upgrading your source/modem/networkswitch/streamer/cabling. Then you will hear the difference between these DACs. At least that happened to me
An head fier can't detect much on the difference between one brand DaC to another. Because a fucking headphone cant create such soundstage and imaging as proper stereo setup. To me ESS and AKM sounds different and i prefer AKM for my taste. E70 Velvet is one hell of an amazing DAC for a mid end stereo setup.
I don't understand. What is the main difference between the SMSL SU series and their D series of DACs? Both seem to have some models with nearly identical specs at similar price points. Thank you. Also, everyone seems to L-U-V R2R DACs, saying they offer a "wide and deep soundstage with natural tonality" compared to chip based sigma-delta DACs. OK, maybe so. But then did the recording engineer hear that same "wide and deep soundstage with natural tonality" when mixing down the tracks, or could it even be an unintentional (but pleasant) artifact of the R2R DACs?
How do you feel about using a fiio k5 pro as a pre amp.. I'm using it now connected to a Denon amp.. I have the regular K5 also that I use for my byerdynamic T1s 1st edition I think the original sounds a little smoother because of the brightness of the but the pro sounds better connected through my home system(kef r11s). question is do you think I could do better? I do think it sounds great layered with a lot of deep and wide soundstage.. as you stated everyone thinks they could do better
You are paying for features only forsure. I'm looking for balanced silver DAC with remote and a nice screen. I could go e50 but the orange display doesn't match and I should go bifrost to match my Freya plus but no screen. So the e70 checks my boxes
You do pro audio DACs but you haven't done JCF Audio. They makes ADCs & DACs. It might just be the ADC that has transformers on the signal path. I'd have to look again. They are made to make digital recording sound like tape. Again, they're a professional design, like RME, & Lynx, but with transformers. You could use their ADC to make your audio sound better on your reviews.
Sabre ESS for me is preferable to AKM (more detailed and better clarity in general). But once you have upgraded to a R2R or multibit dac, it's hard to go back. I think this makes the most difference in your audio chain.
@@ZReviews There is also the matter of adapting to the system. I have a violectric amplifier. Within 2 months I listened to several Chinese DACs at different prices. I sent them back without regret one by one. It didn't matter if they had a single chip, dual or even quad. The bass was stretched like slime (more or less). Other than that, I can't say they sounded bad. I finally found a Lake People RS 06 dac (violectric's brother brand) for a comparable price. Is it a big difference? The bass is now so fast that I can forget about other dacs. I'll ask the question again: is there a big difference? Fundamental for me.
All these cheap Chinese dacs are what I call flavour of the month or even less with the rate they churn these out. While some was may have a inherent character of their own it always comes down to how they implement and design around it. Output stage design and ppwer supply design play a large role. A lot of these cheap Chinese dacs measure perfectly but don't don't perfect. Flat, lifeless, 2d and without sole. I swear they churn these out with robots with no actual human that listens to them during development . Given proper attention to design and execution it should matter what flavour of the month was chip is in it. Heck you can look at some companies that have used old long out if production dac chips and they sound better than some of these Chinese dacs. On another note, your new cat is very shy and antisocial doing videos compared to our favorite Chewbacca. Thanks for the entertainment .p.s. I was drinking rum while writing this 😀
What are some examples of these "cheap Chinese DAC's that are lifeless, 2d and without sole (sic)" ? Also, when you say sole, are you referring to Dover Sole or some other type of fish? I prefer my music to be fish free but I do like my music with soul.
@@holdencaulfied7492 all those topping, smsl, etc dac of the constantly roll out. I'm all for getting more folks into this hobby with inexpensive products and having them isn't a bad thing but after waisting lots of $$$ on perfectly measuring, flat soulless sounding dacs, your better stepping up to something better. And if your happy and content with them that's great. Not here to knock them but after seeing them being churned out so fast and get hyped for a brief time only to be replaced by another from them. And if you notice even with different Chinese name brands their still the same but under another name. I still think many on you tube just hype them up and get keep getting the next one to help you tube reviewers and the companies making them. You are free to like how your music is presented by these and everyone is different. If you enjoy the sound of them than be happy.
I'm a complete noob to all of this, but I do have a Marantz SR14 which of course has DACs inside. Would anyone have an opinion on how these 25 year old DACs compare with the modern ones, either AKM or Sabre?
It seems like a lot of testing relies on single tones and frequency sweeps which has always confused me. Is there a reason why testing isn't run with multiple tones or over time with transitions between tone sets?
Zeos: Goddammit they’re making too many DAC’s. There’s a conspiracy. We don’t need a new DAC every 2 months…. Also Zeos: Absolutely encapsulated within a sarcophagus of headphones, speakers and cables. 😬 Edit: ohhhhhh sheeeeeit……if your conspiracy is correct, Z, we’re witnessing another BlueRay /HDVD scenario……🧐
I'm pretty new to this hobby/addiction and I bought the DX3. So I can get better audio results if I connect it to a better amp? Within reason of course.
Not really better results more like a different experience. Thats a good amp for like 96 percent of headphones. If ur wanting to test amps that sound different tube amps change the sound alot, but even then its still based off of what headphones ur using some don't really benefit from tubes and others do. The 6xx sounds really good on a tube amp but its not like OMG its completely different its more like oh thats nice
Burr-Brown is still very much out there. I think Texas Instruments bought them. Many manufacturers of CD players still use them AFAIK but some (Denon) have moved to AKM or ESS because of cost/availability.
I feel the NAIM DAC 3 grand ish was the best 3D interpretation of music I've ever heard. Was I imagining things? I feel no, but.. realistically, was I?
Drink every time the word 'slightly' gets used in an audio review.
I recently sold most of my gear because I'm a bit burned out. I spent 3 months A/B testing my gear so I could keep my favorite setup and all my DS dacs sounded the same. There's a difference between DS, R2R and Chord but all DS dacs are the same. If I had to do it again I would just choose the dac that matched the aesthetic of my amp.
I would just get a DAC in the $200-$400 range and end the search for at least maybe 5-10 years. One of my DACs is from the early 2000s and it still sounds good.
@ramencurry6672 can I ask what that dac is?
@@radiofreealbemuth Bel Canto DAC 2. It still sounds great but I only use it for CDs and DVD since there is no USB input
@@ramencurry6672 ah, I'm impressed by its longevity 😊
"I just got my ears and my heart". That's all we need from you man.
Resonated with me as well. My budget system is a Topping E30 and a TubeCube 7 from Tubedepot driving KEF Q150 near-field on my desk with home made stands and it can play things that can make me experience emotions. Job done. One day I will change to a bigger tube amp, and another day I hope to get a decent R2R DAC but I wont feel the need to upgrade to a "chip" dac.
Yes, you are right Zeos👍, the dimminishing returns starts really low by dacs.. I made similar test with 10,- 100,- 1000,- dacs.. the difference between the 10 and 100 was clear hearable (audible noise, weak bass), but between 100 and 1000 was really small...
yes, only that a 100 DAC has other problems people are reporting. connection issues, sound drops, software problems, longevity problems, heating, noise after some time, imbalance in channels after some time and so on. Cheap is cheap.
The sweet spot I think would be $500-1000. Solid build, solid sound, enough features, will last a lifetime. I feel cheaper and the volume knobs are too loose and could fail after a couple years and little problems like that because most are made in china.
@@arnis8650 yes, you are right👍, I used in the 100 to 200 category dongle dacs (s9 pro, ua5), they were not so good as the higher priced (chord mojo2, earmen traduto, cambridge 851n) but the differences were really subtle.. so I thing the 300 to 600,- dacs are good enough for 99% of people
@@olimphus26 yes, thats true, I feel the same..
@@olimphus26the sweet spot is $10k to about $30k for high end systems. When you get to R2R it is companies like MSB that are leading the way. Everything is made in house. Rokna uses the old MSB modules.
I wouldn't say "the least important", I'd say "the least important to upgrade". the jump from motherboard DAC is really big, but another upgrade is almost never worth it
Id agree with this.
Is the jump from motherboard that big? Do tell. I just bought a Topping A90 Discrete(100% off Z Review recommend) and have no DAC aside from the laptop to feed it
@@chrisperrotta3686 even a $100 that would be a huge Improvement from re-amplifying your laptop's headphone out.
This is the exact reason at a certain point with these dac amps, I may as well begin listening to the differences via speakers exclusively. Any changes to these dac amps won't be realized thru cans, but speakers. That's why I no longer have a home headphone station...headphones on the go, speakers at the crib
Put three different prices on three different shoeboxes and the Audiophile will buy whichever one costs the most money. It is ALL they see, the price.
most "audiophile" listen with their eyes more than their ears.
This isn't like the 80s and 90s, when almost all DACs (internal or otherwise) were dogshit and we were all fighting for our lives every day; almost everything past $100 is golden. What really matters among high-end DACs is features.
I guess R2R ladder topology is a feature too then.
I'd rather have just a pure DAC, nothing else. I don't need a preamp or amp built in, nor Bluetooth. I just want the best DAC I can get for the money.
3 words: arr too arr
I bought the SMSL VMV D1 based on your review back in 2019. I still have it. Just missing a few features but it MAY be time soon to change but for now it works and I can wait.
Love that pig-iron
I have a DAC from around 2002. Still sounds good
The DAC thing is out of hand. It’s becoming overwhelming to us, as much as it is to reviewers. It seems like there are ten new DACs a week.
Indeed, I'd rather SMSL have maybe FIVE DACs and put enough time and engineering into them alone instead of thinking they need to come out with a new DAC ever two weeks. It gets stupid and ridiculous. I mean Shenzen Audio kept the Denafrips to about three models of various prices, and they have all had great reviews. If you do something right the first time, you don't have to redesign it until maybe 5 years have passed to take advantage of any new technology or manufacturing techniques.
If you don’t need balanced connectivity (which I don’t) and you are only using USB (which I am), sounds like it would be hard to justify anything more expensive than the Schiit $129 Modi DAC.
Zeos: Maybe DACs are the least important thing in your system.
Expensive Cables: Am I a joke to you?
ho ho
- Dio
I have a Topping E50 for both of my stacks and I don't feel any need to upgrade either of them. The only 2 features I could think of to gain would be bluetooth capability and maybe the better power cord connection.
Zeos with the Alex Jones reference was not on my 2023 bingo card. 🤣
HA. That is more an internet meme than anything.
I typically buy DACs based upon their I/O and price. The only external DAC that I've heard that actually sounds noticeably different to me was my original Schiit Modi 2 non-uber. Since I upgraded that, I haven't been able to tell much of a difference in all the other DACs I've tried. IMHO, the biggest upgrade was going from USB to Optical. Not because it sounds better, but because sound device drivers suck. I'm currently using a SMSL SU-8 and a THX 789, and I couldn't be much happier with the pair.
How does one upgrade from a USB to optical? My MacBook Pro doesn't have an optical output, so what on Earth are you going on about?
@@holdencaulfied7492 When you switch from copper based transmission methods to light based, you eliminate issues like cross talk, EMI, and other forms of noise. In addition, devices that output optical audio do not typically need drivers to work. There are some downsides with using optical, but the upsides are worth it if you don't like dealing with those issues.
So glad you made this rant, it felt like I was over thinking my setup, but people don't know what to look for, or understand what I'm trying to do with my setup. So it's difficult to talk to anybody about this.
All I need is a good DAC with HDMI I/O, and RCA with L/R Audio outputs. It can even have XLR, this is for a home entertainment system featuring an older high-end AV reciever. I don't really see the purpose in getting a really expensive DAC, $500 is more than enough for what I'm putting together. I think I got it figuredout now and possibly saved a lot of money to boot, the hard part is finding a DAC with a good sampling rate...
True for 95% of us. I bought mojo 2 because it have the inputs I need, great headphone amp, desktop or portable AND a good EQ witch is very important to me because every amp and headphones gonna sound less good with certain tracks (mastering). EQ is the simplest way of helping that and make listening more enjoyable (Or even bearable ;). No DAC - even at 10k- will ever "fix" mastering eq problems and inconsistencies.
I personally run all of my music through a DAW running 32 bit 192khz so I can put whatever effects/eq I want and it only cost me 200 bucks... The only problem is the time it takes to make it work. Oh yeah and I can also record anything going to my ears and remaster it to my liking in real time.
Oh headphone listeners. I remember thinking the ifi idsd black label was really expensive. I went all the way up to the abyss AB-1266 TC with chord TT2 and mscaler then bartok with XI Audio formula s and powerman.
Come to the dark side with speakers. $10k dacs are just getting into the pool. They go up past $100k.
I’m waiting for a Mojo 3 and in the meantime I’m using a Qudelix 5k. And I’m fine. I’m living. I’m loving my music.
@@ireallyreallyreallylikethisimg What is a DAW? Is that a typo?
@@holdencaulfied7492 digital audio workstation
Z...I got into this whole thing when you said ZEN DACs are all you need. At the time the V2 came out, and bam! Been on the V2. Since then they've gotten a GTO filter that sounds thicker and paired with an Asgard 3 makes them sound enveloping on the bassy planar headphones. I'm good now. Thank you sir. 🥰
Donuts, I was all set to get the Zen One signature until I started hearing about the Topping E70. What's your opinion?
@@holdencaulfied7492 I recently upgraded to the DO200. It’s a warm sounding dual ESS chip Dac like the E70. Honestly the ZEN DAC V2 is warmer. There’s slightly more air and spatial qualities to these ESS DACs. The vocals are warmer and closer on the zen dac.
I had a lot of doubt about whether higher end dacs would have improvements. The improvements are there, and personally I think it was worth it, just not the ‘wow’ level of improvement.
I’d say if you have a pair of headphone you really wanted, that would take priority.
Just know, no matter how many reviewers say the E70 and DO200 are warm, the ZEN DACs are even more so. The bass might slightly be flatter on the Zen Dac. That’s about it. 👍
I have a Schiit Modi 3+ and my Arcam Amp has an ESS 9016, I honstly can't tell the difference, they are both great...
In todays world, anything past $100+ for desktop and $50+ for dongle DACS and you are just fine. No need for more.
I’m going back and watching the Halo May DAC vid🤣
I think that humans have very different hearing, tastes and preferences...ranging from those who are virtually deaf through to those who are hyper sensitive, to bass, mids or treble frequencies etc, etc!
Therefore the more impaired a persons hearing might be .. the cheaper the whole hifi journey and experience can become 🤣😂😂😂😂
So everyone should go to Heavy Metal concerts unprotected to save cash.. I like it.
@@ZReviewshmmm... that might be hifi tip of the decade ....although those upper tinnitus frequency's might be a bit off putting 🤣🤣🤣
Zeos, I believe that your belief that DACs are the least useful part of your system to be valid, and useful for you. that's why you return to it and the idea becomes stronger. For me, my DAC is the most important part of my system. because I also believe that we can believe wrong things in a way that helps us. because believing that music is making me happy is why music is making me happy.
And this is why I like Zeos.
How come nobody ever shits on Dolby Atmos or 360 Sound, But aggressively attack MQA? It’s an OPTION if people want to use it or not, just like the others. That’s the real conspiracy. People really need to grow up, especially in this hobby. Many live to complain about irrelevant champagne problems. Do we complain there’s hundreds of different flat screen TVs that simply grow an inch every year and may offer another Fire TV streaming option? We should be happy that we even have all the affordable high quality choices. Otherwise we may be stuck with wood, sheet metal, and plastic DACs that never change any and takes forever to get.
Because MQA is demonstrably LOSSY. That's why. Even engineer wunderkind Bob Carver wrote a white paper about it. And given the speeds of the modern Internet there's simply no need for it here in 2023. Even Neil Young sued to stop his albums from being classified as "Masters" on Tidal if they were encoded with MQA. No, it isn't exactly "snake oil" but there's little to recommend it. The thing is, all DACs supporting it have to pay a license fee for that which is of course passed on to the consumer. So, all things being equal, I'd rather have a quality DAC that doesn't have it.
What ROSS said and also Atmos and 360 sound you can actually hear it doing something. Even if it isn't improving fidelity its changing how you listen and expanding to multiple speakers in atmos. Or processing to sound like a bigger sound field in 2 channel. But they aren't lying to you too much.
Interesting perspective. I'm wondering if by playing these DACs via headphones you've reached a point of diminishing returns more quickly. I've watched so many DAC reviews lately. A few reviewers described the increasingly subtle differences between these later SMSL DACs by its soundstage, depth, sound placement, airyness, etc etc.
I'm thinking the subtle differences they described may be best noticed (if at all) with speakers particularly with factors such as speaker placement (height/separation), sound projection, reflections, room acoustics, and so on. I don't know if what I'm saying have any relevance. I'm just spitballing here. Thanks, I do enjoy your videos.
I feel like adding room nodes and other oddities to the setup could only make it harder. Honestly going with some expensive IEMs would be the best best way. Get that music as close to your brain as possible..
@@ZReviews Rubbish! Lol
@@ZReviews Maybe. I do agree it occurs in the brain. The way we perceive music. When I was younger, I enjoyed going to live Latin and jazz singer spots. Headphones have never recreated that authentic acoustic sound for me.
Although I do recall a pair of high priced B&W bookshelves, class A amp and reel2reel setup with proper placement and distance came pretty close. It recreated the soundstage, depth, dynamics and energy.
I haven't really listened to expensive audio gear so I may be way off base. Thanks for your response.
Pairing matters more, then technicalities. I know Z reviews are more based on emotions and spontaneity which is a nice addition to all the available reviews. But I Z could compare enough with various frequency responses transducers as well as speaking about lows mids, highs, soundstage, vocals. R2R vs Delta sigma.
I thought some dacs enhance some qualities more than others. Though it's true that SMSL do release too many and similar dacs, all looking the same.
I've gone through 7-8 Dacs ranging from $100 to $450 in search of the features I want. I finally settled on the Topping E70. I love that big readable display from 10 feet away.
reminds me of that joke about the dude choosing between 7-8 gals and the got the one with the
I'm looking at the E70. Is the Velvet worth the extra bucks?
@holden caulfied You won't hear a difference honestly. The E30ii is a great dac I use for headphone setup as well.
Thanks, Saved my Hundreds
I've dropped by from time of time and I didn't get; just wandered off thinking what the hell was that!
But today I got it!
That was a brilliant, entertaining and glorious rant which cut through all the bull💩 that other reviewers spread about what they can 'hear'.
Especially appreciate the encouragement not to spend fortune or fall prey to the endless self deception that this or that new shiny will fill the aching void in my life!
So I Subscribed, which realistically won't move the dial for you but is a big surprise to me!
Kudos Zeos
ps. (I look forward to the moment when you do hit on the thing that will fill the aching void, oh Oracle.)
That's why I sold the supposedly very good SMSL M500 mk3 and replaced it with one built with TDA1541. Later, I bought a module in which I can alternately use the PCM63 / AD1865 or PCM58 chips. Additionally, I built myself a DAC based on the TDA1540 chip. I compared them to Denafrips Ares II and even the new DAC lost to them in terms of sound presentation.
Review a Cambridge DacMagic 100 to break up your monotony of SMSL and Topping.....................
This Video: Is why you are the BEST. DO200 happy camper!
This is why I think DAC's should do more. Like the RME ADI-2 DAC FS lets us do a significant amount of sound shaping and audio equalization in the DAC itself. That made it worth the price for me.
A friend of my brought over his new RME ADI-2 DAC to compare with my L.K.S DAC I bought from China HiFi for about the same price. With all its equalization glory we were both disappointed with the RME DAC.
@@Franky2A3 As it should be. RME is quite linear and flat in terms of sound, with good resolution and dynamics. It is cool for its customization, functionality, good USB and compactness/design.
Topping EX5 coming from a Burson Conductor 3XR and I gotta say I can't tell they're different so that was just free money.
Just say no to more Chi-fi DACs. These Chinese companies coming out with a "new" or "upgraded" version every week is just a sign of a dysfunctional market that need to stop.
If a company really wants to distinguish themselves, they should screen print cute anime waifu's onto their hardware!
Dye-sub them, they'll last forever
I used to be a salesman back in the 80s selling HiFi equipment and I remember JVC had a great turntable but they had just brought out tthe latest version so the day it arrived I pulled it out of the box to put on display only to find it was exactly the same as the previous version but with a small square of yellow paint around the speed change button and a new model number. It was 20 pound more too, I was horrified but worst still people perfered to have the latest version and I sold them by the bucket load. Thats good marketing for you lol
No
That Yellow square is now the HiRes Audio Stickers.. lol
But why does everyone say that DACs sound different? Most reviewers and fellow audiophiles.
Bought the Dac-X6 five years ago when It was all the rage. Didn't bother upgrading it until I got a Focusrite Solo that sounds noticeably brighter. I'm now using the Topping Dx1 and have zero thought about upgrading it since it's basically near-perfect already and in the future I'll just buy an amp if my future headphone needs it.
I always stay till the end Z 💯💪🏼
"The Aune X8 Magic DAC with the swappable..." [proceeds to milk an invisible teet in search of the cure to aphasia] "...opamp..."
That's why I tune in.
The one thing about dacs is that good old fashioned R2Rs and companies like Chord are the exception to the rule. But the majority of these kinds of dacs have always been expensive, they never got cheap. Delta-Sigma dacs used to be terrible but they have closed the gap so far that a 200$ dac gets you 98% of what you need so the diminishing returns on high class 800$+ dacs just gets even worse over time. I've gotten some really nice dongle dacs recently with some of them using cirrus logic chips now and while the spacial imaging still isn't quite as good as my main setup, it has shown me that delta-sigma dacs have made a LOT of ground to the point I practically don't care anymore.
What $200 dac in specific would you recommend?
@@GG-xi5pd That's actually a pretty tough question to answer but usually if someone is aiming for a 200$ price point I'd usually say to go for something like Moonriver 2. It may be a dongle dac/amp but it comfortably competes with desktop dacs at the same price range and on top of that has better than average amplification in comparison to other dongle dacs. This is one of the ones with the CS logic chips and they definitely have their own characteristics that differ from both AKM and ES Chips. In the Moonriver's implementation, it does a really good job with accurate imaging and an audible depth to the soundstage that I don't often hear very well with delta-sigma's but it still isn't perfect. You may notice the soundstage is almost box shaped at times, but the point is, its insanely good at its job for what this costs. I'm not gonna say you can't find something just as good on a better deal though, this was just my experience with the gear I own.
All the dacs sounds the same regardless the design
Because they are a commodity item now.
Have a node 2i and just bought a J2 AK4499 w/ sparkos op amps on RCA … hope it was worth the change, not sure after watching this video. Great info btw, love your style.
You da MAN!
i make music and recently i bought a new external soundcard (fom ua volt 2 to motu ultralite mk5), and i can tell you a dac is important, eventually all things in a chain are..
Thanks. Sooooooooo true what you say about DACs!
using a Fosi Audio DS2 as my dac on my pc into a IFI Zen Air Can for a budget setup, this has the added bonus that I can always scoop up the DS2 for my phone when in travel, using 3.5mm to rca for interconnect, yea there are probally cheeper ways to get simmilar amp power and dac quality but I got both items fairly well disconted so woked out 170ish aussie dolery total
I’ve already read 2 reviews directly comparing the E70 with the E70 Velvet, who claim they’re hearing differences… you?
There was SOMETHING.. It was so slight I almost can't confirm I heard it. It was so slight that It was worth literally what I tacked onto the end... A groaning sound.
I watched completely waiting for comparison between E70 vs E70 Velvet.
But ...
I know. That's why I came here. He kept picking them up.. but nothing. 20 minutes of video and he couldn't fit in 30 seconds for that? Come on, man.
The abyss colour the sound horrendously on a measurement rig btw - and massive distortion. But they’re fun to listen to.
The 1266?
One you get a DAC with the features on it you want, nothing else is relevant. I got the ADI-2 DAC and that's all I'll ever need.
I bought 2 dacs in my life, a $110 dac for home and a $130 dongle dac. I primarily use speakers so wouldn't be able to hear differences between dacs. My planar M570 does pick out differences between my 2 dacs but I don't care. Either are outstanding over no dac.
If my system is not moving me I can always improve it with alcohol. I'll have to try rum
I always had amp + dac combos and when I upgraded those I got ”wow” moments. But everyone says noooo you need to get a proper standalone dac so finally I did. A 1000 dollar/euro one. There was no ”wow” moment. Initially it maybe even sounded a bit worse than the built in one… I’m now in the camp that dacs don’t matter.
Z,
I agree...all this stuff is so good I don't think 99% of the population can't tell any difference.
Mr. Pete-------->
aging hippie
where do you get all your stickers?
For $500-$1000 you might as well get a MiniDSP Flex 8 channel with Dirac room correction. Just wish they started making DACs with multiple toslink inputs as I've never had a scenario where I would use USB or Coax
How would you play music from your laptop without USB? That's the entire reason for a DAC. If you don't do that, you don't need an external DAC.
This is random but is EDIFIER S350DB still a nice option for 2.1 for its price nowadays?
Get Edifier S1000MKII instead, plenty of bass. Better overall sound
Ya it's gotten bad, like sure release new DACs but c'mon cant they engineer atleast different boxes or features. Its always the same screens or identical remotes throw alittle flair into the mix or something like the only thing u need to know is what are u using it for? Do u want it balanced? Do u need or want Bluetooth and do u need a remote?
I bought myself the K9 pro ess and I definitely don't need anything unless I start building up a home theater system
You are so spot on! 😁 ... Expectation bias or psychoacoustic foolery or hey I need a 2k dac because I have an amp and speakers worth 15k ! Look at it this way, why care about a fool and his money! 💰
Rum is great!
This makes me think about how Richard Dawkins talks about evolution. With every new generation, you can't see a difference from parents to children, but go back long enough and suddenly grandpa is a fish.
Maybe in the distant future, smsl dacs will look like fish to us.
Z preaching about the industry he built.
Some people build their own prisons and never notice..
Keep your dac's on Zeo, you are beyond entertaining. And yo shit be true.✌
Each of those chi-fi dac sound same, but yes source and transport change has a very noticeable difference IMHO.
I’m still running the Grace SDAC feeding
789, Xduoo 604 and Loxji 20..still 😌
And the best "cheap" DAC is? I have Asgard 3 and searching DAC.
Thanks!
A big leap will be upgrading your source/modem/networkswitch/streamer/cabling.
Then you will hear the difference between these DACs.
At least that happened to me
Ed, expensive cables have been proven to be nonsense. Don't fall for that snake oil.
I use a $9 apple dongle into an SMSL a300 lulz :P
Nice
Z , could you please tell me if the E70 Velvet is worth the $100 over the E70 non velvet?
I have the same question
An head fier can't detect much on the difference between one brand DaC to another. Because a fucking headphone cant create such soundstage and imaging as proper stereo setup. To me ESS and AKM sounds different and i prefer AKM for my taste. E70 Velvet is one hell of an amazing DAC for a mid end stereo setup.
I don't understand. What is the main difference between the SMSL SU series and their D series of DACs? Both seem to have some models with nearly identical specs at similar price points. Thank you. Also, everyone seems to L-U-V R2R DACs, saying they offer a "wide and deep soundstage with natural tonality" compared to chip based sigma-delta DACs. OK, maybe so. But then did the recording engineer hear that same "wide and deep soundstage with natural tonality" when mixing down the tracks, or could it even be an unintentional (but pleasant) artifact of the R2R DACs?
No one out pizzas the Hut!
How do you feel about using a fiio k5 pro as a pre amp.. I'm using it now connected to a Denon amp.. I have the regular K5 also that I use for my byerdynamic T1s 1st edition I think the original sounds a little smoother because of the brightness of the but the pro sounds better connected through my home system(kef r11s). question is do you think I could do better? I do think it sounds great layered with a lot of deep and wide soundstage.. as you stated everyone thinks they could do better
But didn't the guys at Abyss say any DAC below 2000 dollars is not good enough? 😇
Guess I need to change everything.
@@ZReviews Never change dude!
There is more to a headphone than sound … comfort for example
You are paying for features only forsure. I'm looking for balanced silver DAC with remote and a nice screen. I could go e50 but the orange display doesn't match and I should go bifrost to match my Freya plus but no screen. So the e70 checks my boxes
You do pro audio DACs but you haven't done JCF Audio. They makes ADCs & DACs. It might just be the ADC that has transformers on the signal path. I'd have to look again. They are made to make digital recording sound like tape. Again, they're a professional design, like RME, & Lynx, but with transformers. You could use their ADC to make your audio sound better on your reviews.
Thank you for this video
This rant is the same as when I tried A/B between Tidal Master and Spotify. There was nothing...
Sabre ESS for me is preferable to AKM (more detailed and better clarity in general). But once you have upgraded to a R2R or multibit dac, it's hard to go back. I think this makes the most difference in your audio chain.
More difference than the Headphone/speaker itself, room correction, or source IE recording quality?
@@ZReviews There is also the matter of adapting to the system. I have a violectric amplifier. Within 2 months I listened to several Chinese DACs at different prices. I sent them back without regret one by one. It didn't matter if they had a single chip, dual or even quad. The bass was stretched like slime (more or less). Other than that, I can't say they sounded bad. I finally found a Lake People RS 06 dac (violectric's brother brand) for a comparable price. Is it a big difference? The bass is now so fast that I can forget about other dacs. I'll ask the question again: is there a big difference? Fundamental for me.
Is the Topping E70V worth buying? Any other dac that lesser offensive things?
All these cheap Chinese dacs are what I call flavour of the month or even less with the rate they churn these out. While some was may have a inherent character of their own it always comes down to how they implement and design around it. Output stage design and ppwer supply design play a large role. A lot of these cheap Chinese dacs measure perfectly but don't don't perfect. Flat, lifeless, 2d and without sole. I swear they churn these out with robots with no actual human that listens to them during development . Given proper attention to design and execution it should matter what flavour of the month was chip is in it. Heck you can look at some companies that have used old long out if production dac chips and they sound better than some of these Chinese dacs. On another note, your new cat is very shy and antisocial doing videos compared to our favorite Chewbacca. Thanks for the entertainment .p.s. I was drinking rum while writing this 😀
What are some examples of these "cheap Chinese DAC's that are lifeless, 2d and without sole (sic)" ? Also, when you say sole, are you referring to Dover Sole or some other type of fish? I prefer my music to be fish free but I do like my music with soul.
@@holdencaulfied7492 all those topping, smsl, etc dac of the constantly roll out. I'm all for getting more folks into this hobby with inexpensive products and having them isn't a bad thing but after waisting lots of $$$ on perfectly measuring, flat soulless sounding dacs, your better stepping up to something better. And if your happy and content with them that's great. Not here to knock them but after seeing them being churned out so fast and get hyped for a brief time only to be replaced by another from them. And if you notice even with different Chinese name brands their still the same but under another name. I still think many on you tube just hype them up and get keep getting the next one to help you tube reviewers and the companies making them. You are free to like how your music is presented by these and everyone is different. If you enjoy the sound of them than be happy.
21:00 I'm still here.
Nobody gets dizzy ? Watching this camera angle
I am sure people do . But this is with stabilization. Older videos didn't have that and I grew much faster, lol.
Has anyone tried using an rca splitter to add a sub to headphones? How about speakers?
I'm a complete noob to all of this, but I do have a Marantz SR14 which of course has DACs inside.
Would anyone have an opinion on how these 25 year old DACs compare with the modern ones, either AKM or Sabre?
It seems like a lot of testing relies on single tones and frequency sweeps which has always confused me. Is there a reason why testing isn't run with multiple tones or over time with transitions between tone sets?
Amir over at ASR does multitone testing of all reviewed Dacs and the Topping scored excellent.
Finnaly , the TRUTH !!!
Thank for Truth🎉🎉🎉
Zeos: Goddammit they’re making too many DAC’s. There’s a conspiracy. We don’t need a new DAC every 2 months….
Also Zeos: Absolutely encapsulated within a sarcophagus of headphones, speakers and cables.
😬
Edit: ohhhhhh sheeeeeit……if your conspiracy is correct, Z, we’re witnessing another BlueRay /HDVD scenario……🧐
I'm pretty new to this hobby/addiction and I bought the DX3. So I can get better audio results if I connect it to a better amp? Within reason of course.
Not really better results more like a different experience. Thats a good amp for like 96 percent of headphones. If ur wanting to test amps that sound different tube amps change the sound alot, but even then its still based off of what headphones ur using some don't really benefit from tubes and others do. The 6xx sounds really good on a tube amp but its not like OMG its completely different its more like oh thats nice
Dac are really useful for me cause my onboard audio on my pc are busted.lmao
akm and sabre.... but what happened to bur brown and texas instruments dacs?? and there were some more manufacturers of dac chips
The iBasso I reviewed yesterday has two CIRRUS LOGIC dac chips.. I almost fainted.
Burr-Brown is still very much out there. I think Texas Instruments bought them. Many manufacturers of CD players still use them AFAIK but some (Denon) have moved to AKM or ESS because of cost/availability.
Where can I get a geshelli labs dac for $150? If possible would love to get one, Please and thank you!
More like $250. $300 if you need optional USB.
I feel the NAIM DAC 3 grand ish was the best 3D interpretation of music I've ever heard. Was I imagining things? I feel no, but.. realistically, was I?
Need a blind study. Only way to be sure.. Also alcohol
@@ZReviews I agree! And I think we are getting through the hi-fi BS slowly. And were we delusional all along??
@@ZReviews Weed is better!
Why not both 😁
@@rinderkappajoe Yes. Perfect! And a cigarette.
Your SMSL aoshida links do not work. Maybe others.
Fixed it. Retailers have weird URL handling sometimes.
I see you have my $110 dac on your desk (red).
Fluoride doesn’t turn frogs gay but it can cause osteosarcoma or hepatomelangioma. Both are bad