Transport for Wales' old Intercity fleet. Is it any good?
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- Опубліковано 15 чер 2022
- Transport for Wales do operate a limited number of Intercity services, operated by fleets of Class 158, 175 and 67 with Mark 4 coaching stock. The quality of these trains divides opinion, so I'll be making my review of what I think about these vehicles. This is the first in a two part episode, the second will cover my opinions on the new Welsh Intercity trains, the Class 197s and refurbished Mark 4s, and whether I think they are a step up or a sad downgrade from their predecessors.
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I do apologise about how long this video has taken to be released, it seems my upload schedule has been slipping lately... However, in this case it really was beyond my control, the video was ready several weeks ago, however I have been without internet for that time so could not publish it. Ignore what I said about using my data - I uploaded it using the Library WiFi, so whilst inconvenient, it did not cost me, do not fear. Anyway, it could well be another several weeks until my next video, so I am very sorry, but after all this is sorted I promise I will be much more reliable. Time stamps coming soon!
#TfW
Our "intercity" trains are sort of evolving and devolving at the same time. 197s aren't a worthy replacement to the amazing 175s and 158s. However the MK4s and DVTs are amazing upgrades, me being someone who is almost always on small passenger services, they were a shock to me when i boarded one to go to Abervagenny earlier this year. Its a bit of back and forward, seeing how the 175s are first to go instead of something like the 150s and 153s which, as you said, aren't true intercity trains. For the future of these intercity units are up and down, but we'll see how it goes
Cardiff to Manchester?
I've been using that route recently, to get to Cwmbran from Cardiff. 3 out of every 5 days, I've had a class 150 both ways. Insanity!
Even more insane was the class 153 that was sent up just this morning (25/05/2023). A class 153, all the way from Tenby up to Manchester!!!! Absolute fucking insanity!!!
Indeed, a combination of factors has led to appalling stock allocation on the Marches line, hence the disaster that the Sprinters have been on long distance trains. If all goes well, it should get better soon though.
It's crazy they get such small numbers of different trains then spread them out so thinly. Though I remember when the 150 was luxury on the Cambrian 😀
I would not be worried about the age of some of these trains. As long as they are corrosion free, and spare parts are available, they could still have a long and useful life ahead. It is only recently that the practice of scrapping mid-life trains to replace with new has happened, mainly thanks to the wasteful idiots at DfT giving franchises to anyone who promises the earth and offers to buy new trains (to the DfT comfortless standards, of course).
What is important is to have a properly managed cascade of stock. When my local line was electrified, it was at first served by old trains, but the service improvement was wonderful.
The 158 has a top speed of 90MPH and was intended for regional transport (even though laid out as intercity). The MK4 coaches have plenty of life left in them. Some of the old mk1 (which started out steam hauled) and mk2 coaches were put on the west coast mainline until a train with MK1 coaches crashed. The west coast mainline were hauling carriages built in the 70's until very recently; and the retired ones were put elsewhere. Whe the HST crached in Scotland in 2020, the only uncrashworthy part of it was found to be the driver cab (and that consisted of MK3 (HST Type) coaches). The MK4 is still a nice modern coach and I believe they might have 20-30 years of life left in them (as long as they can be overhauled).
It’s great to see the Mk.4s, VTEC did a brilliant refurbishment, it’s going to look a bit odd when the Ex Grand Central black sets come into service though
BSI coupling diesel units have the particularity of matching tractive compatibilities to work together, despite not all units have gangway doors to even make it more functional, but TFW is excluded as all 1980s units still in service have those connections.
Just to correct you on one point. Class 175s are not unusual in the UK having hydraulic transmission. Pretty much every DMU since the class 142 Pacers from the 1980s onwards have had hydraulic transmissions, mostly by Voith.
I apologise- I knew the Turbostars were hydraulic but was not aware of any others. A glaring and embarrassing inaccuracy, thank you for pointing it out!
The Pacers were built with bus-like gearboxes, but on 141113 and the 142s/143s/144s, they were replaced with hydraulic transmissions in the 90s.
15x/16x/17x(except 172), and 18x were all built with hydraulic transmissions.
172 and 19x were built with bus-like gearboxes.
22x and 231 were built with electric transmissions.
If there are only 2 or 3 "gears" that change less frequently, it will be Diesel-hydraulic.
If the gears change more frequently (like the 5/6-speed boxes on the 172s and 195s etc), it will be Diesel-mechanical.
If there's no gearchange, it will be Diesel-electric.
Don't Voith also pick litter
@@v1v3k31 I think they do.
@@RWL2012that explains why the 165 and 166s would roar and rev a couple times before pulling away while the HST just thrummed steadily!
Due to the prevalence of diesel-electric for locos I hadn’t realised the smaller DMUs weren’t also powered that way.
But it makes sense, since the impetus for diesel-electric was very large complex hearing systems for very large complex engines. Not so much an issue for an under-floor (or over-head?) engine in a DMU.
Great video, good commentary, clear and straight to the point! Very enjoyable:)
The 158 works best as the train it was designed to be - a long-distance rural local train. GWR, when they’re not stubbornly using 165/166s which are well outside their comfort zone, know exactly how to use a 158. Think routes like Cardiff/Bristol - Westbury - Weymouth/Southampton. Lots of semi-frequent stops, with high passenger turnover, but also people spending a decent amount of time on there who require comfort and scenery. Seeing them cascaded onto major branch lines like Exeter - Barnstaple is also good. They’re intercity-lite trains, which means they can quite reasonably pass as decent long-distance trains (the GWR and SWR routes across Wessex can serve as proof there!) but to be an intercity train wasn’t *quite* their purpose.
I tried these when they first came out in Scotland on the WHL, on a very late night service observing the snow on the mountains which surprisingly I could see very well from a well lit train carriage. Must be the lack of light pollution in the Highlands.
These things now look ridiculous on EMR turning up at Norwich, sitting next to a 4 coach 755 on rural routes.
158s used to do the South Western services from Waterloo to Exeter and Bristol. Used to be called Alpha line
Another great video, good job GW!
Like your videos btw. Have subscribed 🙂
I really like the 175. At pontypool we get quite a good mix of DMU's but these are the mainstay and they definitely look better in TFW livery but they needed more carriages
i just want to say LNER's remaining class 91 sets have finnaly been repainted, back into intercity...
but its better
I have seen them once and they do look really nice.
Classic train formation is another level and is such a shame no more investment on modern coaches and locomotives, specially to replace gridy and track damaging loading gauge class 67s. Travelling on the first half of the coach coupled to the locomotive can be compared to be onboard a Voyager unit as noisy class 67s are. Do not see any quiet alternatives rather than class 43 HST locomotives, as class 68s can lead the noisy top. Thank you for sharing another interesting video.
Well TFW have about 5 sets that's the two Grand Central sets that will be used on the Swansea -Manchester Piccadilly services along with the sets that will be running on the Holyhead -Cardiff services , my concern about the 197s is the lack of toilets they will be on long distance services and imagine if you have a loo locked out of service , its a step backwards , keeping the 175s would be a good option and i personally think the new trains won't be able to cope
Yes I have wondered about that. With a 5 coach formation there will be two toilets as opposed to one, and they will be the norm on the long distance Manchester to Swansea route, however I can't see that being enough in all honesty. Hopefully they will be more reliable that the existing toilets, which is why less are required- but even if that is the case I don't fancy walking through half the train and back again to get to the toilet, it's bad enough through one coach!
@@GWVillager surely you mean there'll be three toilets across 5 coaches.
Two across 3 coaches and 1 between the additional 2 coaches.
Personally noting that even some of the Mk4 coaches being overcrowded, the 3 coach 197s have first class in part of one coach, so to me the layout is very poor considering its a 3 coach train, as it means to have the equivalent number of standard seats as current or older rolling stock, they'd have to put 2x 3 Coach sets together for each service between those destinations which frankly, won't be possible. And that won't cure the problem of overcrowding. Also the idea of having new trains is to boost capacity considerably, where these trains actually have less seating capacity than TfWs existing fleet from the early 90s....
You're quite right in saying passengers don't really care what their train looks like, so long as it turns up on time, is air conditioned, comfortable, easily accessible, and has plenty of available seats. This is 2022, so there shouldn't be any such thing as overcrowding or standing passengers.
My view of long term investment would be to lengthen a lot of platforms that simply aren't long enough to safely accomodate longer distance services. Also seeing as the Class 175s and 158s have all received refurbishment, they should in my view continue in service to help with the boost in capacity or be kept as spare units in the event of trains breaking down or being in for service.
Also I believe the Mk4s should be extended by 3 coaches per set, especially on match days.
@@GWVillager My experience of CAF toilets are not great. Been on two different 195s with broken toilets :(
By the way, any clues for the future of first class service on TFW when Mark 4 sets be out of scene in favour of new standard class only class 197s? Is the end of Gerald of Wales Premium service as it is until today? Thank you in advance and glad to watch your fantastic videos.
The Mk4s will be kept in the long term, as will their first class. A small fleet of 197s with a first class section fitted will also supplement them on the Manchester routes, so don’t worry, first isn’t going anywhere!
I recently endured the most appalling journey on a seriously overcrowded one coach service from Crewe to Chester on a TFW class 150. Thank goodness the journey only lasted 25 minutes, crammed into the doorway and standing all the way. In mynopinion TFW is a joke
A 153. They really need to do away with the "Chester Shuttle". I'm amazed WMR doesn't run a local hourly service to Hereford (via Nantwich). Part of the problem is that TfW run so many trains that are wholly in England when an English operator should be doing that. I totally agree, Wales needs someone who understands transport & tourism as they'd need that for money! They're getting very much like Westminster by only concentrating on Cardiff area. It's a shame. People visit all parts of Wales
I have never understood why DMUs are usually 2 carriages while EMUs are usually 4 carriages. Any DMU service I have been on is usually wedged. I made this comment to a friend while I was on the 0921 Crewe-Chester last Saturday, which was a 2 car unit. They may double up when required but so do 4 car EMUs but the DMUs are still regularly busier.
By any chance do you know the fate for the 158s and 175s after replacement?
I can see the 158s retiring sadly 😭
But the 175 are still quite young, as young as the voyagers actually
Yes this is interesting, there hasn’t been anything confirmed yet to the best of my knowledge but the 158s are likely to be snapped up by Northern or another big 158 operator. I can also see Scotrail taking them to replace 156s on the Glasgow-Oban route.
As for the 175s, don’t worry they’re likely to find work - 100mph diesel stock is in high demand at the moment. Chiltern Railways indicated in a document that they may take some, but whether that was an accidental spelling of 165 it remains to be seen. They may also go to GWR to replace the HSTs or Northern again to displace 156s - there are plenty of options.
An official of Northern Trains, as reported in the Friends of the Settle Carlisle Line magazine, stated that the 158s had about another 8 years of life in them.
@@GWVillager On the TFW 158s to scotrail point, I do believe that the West Highland Line will be recieving 158s in around 2024, but these are likely to be internally displaced from elsewhere in Scotland rather than brought from outside.
They are more iter regional / express services rather Intercity due to the random availability of Fleet to operate them regardless advertising a First Class fare option that last minute can not be available.
So arnt they mk4 coaches with mk3 dvts? Pretty sure GC have the ex GA mk3 coaches but with the mk4 DVTs
No, they're Mk4 coaches with Mk4 DVTs. GC’s sets were all Mk4 as well, but they are now with Transport for Wales as well.
These are actually TfW's "new" loco-hauled trains; the 67s previously hauled Mark 3+DVT sets rather than these Mark 4+DVT sets.
Yes I know, I believe I mentioned that. The reason I included them is that they currently operate in the fleet, so exist pre-changes if you will.
So I am kinda curious. Why did TFA(transport for wales) bought Mk4 sets and replace them with MK3? Is it cuz the MK3 is too old? And do they have plans on replacing the LNER seats??
Yes, the Mk3s didn't meet disability requirements and didn't have toilet tanks I believe. As far as I'm aware, the LNER seats will stay though they're getting a new livery.
@@GWVillager ah I see.
Transport for Wales is TfW.
I believe the ex-LNER Mark 4 sets are leased but the ex-Grand Central Mark 4 sets were bought outright (unless they've now bought the ex-LNER Mark 4 sets outright as well and I don't know about it).
I'm assuming you meant why were the Mark 3 sets replaced with the Mark 4 sets.
The Mark 3 sets could've been modified with all the Persons with Reduced Mobility / PRM modifications (toilet tanks are just one of them) - Chiltern, an Arriva UK Trains-owned company, actually had theirs done which is why they still operate them - but the _TfW_ ones were owned outright by Arriva UK Trains, so TfW were leasing them from Arriva, who wanted them back to go to Chiltern (a plan that was later scrapped).
Is the first clip near shelwick junction
Not exactly, it's at the sight of the former St Devereux station, just South of Hereford.
I'm going to cut against the grain here and say I prefer the 197s to the 67s - mostly because the 67s never seem to actually turn up on time.
used to seeing a lot of Transport For Wales 175's lined up at the Chester Depot as I walk past it most days, will be a bit wierd not to see them anymore
They should still be around for at least another year, the Marches won't transition for a while.
@@GWVillager WMR should run a local Marches service, it's all in England. Let the TfW trains run fast between Hereford / Shrewsbury. I'd even go further & say XC should run the Manchesters, reversing at Cardiff then out to the West Country.
when I got the tfw 175 it was only 2 coaches long
Some of them are 2 coaches, yes.
They need more loco hauled for an hourly to Llandudno or Holyhead. The Alstom / CAF units should be relegated purely to Manchester - Swansea & not beyond. Availability is becoming a problem.
as an average user of tfw seeing the mk4's rock up is a great surprise, having comfortable seating and a fresh interior
Indeed, they're a real step up.
You are being very kind. TFW is an absolute joke. Taking other rail company's cast offs is no way to run a railway. Btw the service does not run Cardiff to Manchester. It is Milford Haven / Pembroke Dock to Manchester. A living hell for those that have to do the full journey. Very often they fail to make the full run having to turn back a Crewe. Cancellations are common-place. None are electrified in a Country that has less electrified railway than any other, apart from Albania. I have smelt burning in carriages from the air con. Water pouring from the roof. Toilets failing completely necessitating a change of train. The most efficient thing is the website that processes claims and complaints although there are a lot of hoops to jump through first. It is truly awful.
If it's allows them to run better service then I don't see a problem in using other's old rolling stock
@@oldtechnobodycaresabout You have to ask why did the other companies get rid of their stock? Plus it really is not a better service, It is going downhill.
Leighton Goss actually First class service is not guaranteed on Manchester Loco hauled services as TFW operates what is available. I think the only First class service is the classic evening Premium Service Cardiff-Holyhead. I am wondering when Loco hauled services getting replaced by CAF units, what comes next to operate First class service?
They have also got the grand central mk4
Indeed, but they're not in service yet, they'll be in the 'new' fleet review!
While the enthusiast in me likes the loco hauled trains, I don't think they're adequate. Up to now there have only been 2 standard class coaches in the sets. I believe this is increasing to three but that's still not enough. I'm afraid I've long thought bringing back first class on the marches line is a gimmick, aimed at assembly members from north Wales
There are currently two coaches of standard, as well as another half in the buffet coach, which will increase to 3 1/2 after the addition, which isn't bad by any means, the coaches are very long after all. The first class is also beneficial too, the extra revenue is proving useful and is certainly used by more than just Assembly members.
TFW allocates to any service what is available to operate and at the end of the day passangers have a train home...or not as ive seen many getting stranded at platformas as no more room was available onboard for them and in many cases their belongings too regardless the class of unit. 175s have no hight enough for standard size luggage bags and likewise their classmates 180s are very prone to technical failures resulting in fire in the worst scenario. 158s are far better despite noisy and bumpy ride compared to 175s but can accomodate more passangers per coach with more comfort and less suffocation as 175s exhaust pipes are mounted in the walls of intercommunication vestibuls making them really hot even during the cold season.
Wait a minute...
That picture of the 153 - is that at Hereford, being taken on platform 2?
EDIT: Okay, that 158 is DEFINITELY Hereford!
Yes, both of them are Hereford! It's a good place to find a variety of stock, but quiet enough for unobstructed shots of the trains.
@@GWVillager I agree
the 158s are my favourite and imo cannot be topped
They are pleasant trains, and did a huge amount of good for the railway, probably more so than any other DMU in the country.
Just to correct you In the early 2010 LNER did not exist it was east coast then virgin trains from 2015-2018 and LNER 2018-Present
Yes I know, I never said that did I?
I have to say, the mk4 tfw sets are pretty much identical to the LNER sets (apart from the loco) . I think whilst LNER are re-designing their livery for their sets I think TFW should just keep the old vtec livery as it looks quite nice. Tfw probably would have been better with mk5s because they will end up having to get rid of mk4 as it's getting old now.
I doubt they'll be getting rid of the mk4s for a while now. It ought to be remembered that coaches can have much longer lives than units or locomotives, as there are far fewer moving parts that can degrade. There's still a lot of life left in them.
Pennine Wanderer the only downside of Virgin Trains East Coast liveried sets is the lack of interior refurbishment after since 2015 compared to fresh looking sets proposed to failed Grand Central Blackpool to London service in my opinion. Furthermore nothing compares the silence of travelling onboard the first coach right behind a class 91 and the rumbling noisy experience of a class 67 that is a fuel consumption heavy beast to pull only 5 cars. Class 68s are the same on Chiltern and Trans Pennine Express. Class 57s would be much more better on this type of traction if their reliability was better and they newer than today.
It is a shame that Wales has less OLE or else the class 91s could have been refurbished & used too. How nice (& eco friendly) would that have been?
They have also been shortened from 9 coaches to 4. I know ToCs like to claim that supply meets demand but more space would attract more passengers.
Will Wales ever be electrified?!
Yes, The South Wales Metro is electrifying a lot.
hopefully not
Bro imagine being a designer working for days months or even years on a train and then some dude goes lol flimsy doors at end of carriage go brrrr
Well, the facts don’t lie!
@@GWVillager opinion is not fact. Oh and by the way. Split pluck door design was/is used on many trains in the Netherlands and are very solid. Sturdy and reliable.
@@Thomas_TdK I was joking, I know there's no real problem with them.
are you from hereford
No, but I do film there a lot.
@@GWVillager ok
The 158s are a classic and we’re a real step up back in the day.
I do find the 175s though utterly awful and have the regular task of suffering on them. Hard suspension, poor seat angles and glaring interior lights.
What lets all of the north to south services down is the service itself.
TfW, or “Cardiff Rail” to give them their correct name, aren’t interested in the long distance services with poor capacity trains grinding along the marshes. Slow, often overcrowded and unreliable.
It is improving with the Mk 4s and (eventually) 197s though.
Depends on the route. On the limited stop trains from West Wales to Swansea & Cardiff they're lovely. Personally I think XC should run the Manchesters (West Country via the Marches) & that the stopping service on the Marches go over to WMR. Then have an hourly TfW loco hauled express up to Chester / North Wales. I think TfW should concentrate on services within Wales tbh. I would run the Cambrian 158's to Wrexham / Chester & let Midlands people change at Shrewsbury onto WMR or Avanti.
So many things TfW should be improving on, or not doing at all.
Arriva Trains Wales use(d) Class 175's.
Indeed they did.
Another mistake is that the 158's have a top speed of 100mph and some of them were 3 car.
The 158's maximum speed is definitely 90mph, and whilst some 3 car 158s do exist, TfW only operates 2 car formations.
@@GWVillager My apologies, you are correct and I am wrong, I was only going on memory from either NationalRail or Realtime trains which used to say Class 158/170/180 Pathed for 100mph or something like that. I am sorry.
@@GWVillager I think SWR have all the 3-car 158s?
@@williamhuang8309 SWR have all the Class 159s, which are 3-car and very similar to the 158s, but their 158s are all 2. The 3 car 158s are with GWR and Northern.
GWVillager and William Huang , 3 car 158 original sets are only in service with Northern. GWR sets although 3 car formation are all driving cars adaptations taking advantage of gangway doors to put them together and extend train length. Only Northern have Motor Standards that are the middle cars with no driving cabs like class 159s in SWR.
Sometimes they triple the class 158 to 6 cars
I do not think TFW does it due to short platforms length. Southwest Trains does with 159s.
the 158s have very narrow doors
I personally would assume the tableless bays are for people in wheelchairs.
No, the wheelchair spaces are missing both tables and one pair of seats.
The TfW intercities are, with the possible exception of the Mk4 sets, absolutely rubbish - the 158s in particular are well past their sell-by date and, on the Shrewsbury-Birmingham service, useless (more often than not as 2 car sets which are nearly always full even leaving Shrewsbury). The track doesn't even permit high speed running and needs a serious upgrade. If we could get some proper high speed diesel sets (even some of the older 5 car Voyagers) it would seem like heaven out here, but instead we've got Flirts coming in which seem to have turned out as bad as what we already have.
A Welsh inter city service Holyhead to Cardiff that needs to run north to south via england. Talk about being kept under!!!!
What exactly do you mean? There's hardly an alternative route that would avoid England.
@@GWVillager there was and the Senedd is trying to get it reopened.
The reopening of the Bangor-Afon Wen and Aberystwyth-Carmarthen lines would allow for Holyhead-Cardiff via Mid Wales rather than *England*
@@RWL2012 such a line also finally links the Welsh Universities and puts Lampeter back on the rail system
@@JohnSmith-bx8zb that's a great Idea but also a BIG project. Prehaps too big...
Am I the only one that thinks tfw will bye trqnspenine express' class 185 as the Te has got ne
I don't see why, they have the rolling stock they need.
@@GWVillager eventually the class 175 won't be able to continue for it is far oldè than the 185 though I see what you mean
@@leighmenzie5904 Yes, the 175s are being replaced by Class 197s and Mark 4s.
@@GWVillager I did not know that but surely those large heavier mk4 can't go on some of there routes for some of the routes are nor but single track branchlines
@@leighmenzie5904 Yeah, the Mark 4s will only operate the Manchester-Swansea services, 197s will do everything else.
Sorry but I don’t think much of this review. Apart from your shortage of illustrative photos to accompany comments, key aspects have been omitted. Firstly, TfW inherited all these trains upon assuming the franchise. They decided none was fit for purpose going forward and even the relatively young class 175 are to be replaced because of their inadequate luggage and bicycle storage. Access to the 175 is narrow with awkward turns around the toilet cubicle. The overhead storage is high and slim and can accommodate very little. The 158 has excellent access and luggage storage both overhead and at carriage ends, and bike arrangements work well, but its aircon doesn’t work and, as you say, the trains are noisy. Given the relatively low speed restrictions on the TfW lines 90mph isn’t much of a hindrance. Indeed, the former ECML intercity stock runs at slower speeds on account of not being multiple units. The new replacement trains will be capable of 100mph however.
I do apologise for the lack of illustration, but that was something I had little ability to improve at the time. If it's any consolation, I now have more than enough to illustrate the vehicles more properly.
90mph working may not be too restrictive across much of Wales, but the heavily congested stretch they run as expresses on between Wolverhampton and Birmingham would certainly appreciate better acceleration, and of course services to Manchester are running on lines with speed limits of 125mph. The loco-hauled sets can achieve 110 there, and whilst there are a few locomotive speed restrictions (particularly between Shrewsbury and Craven Arms), this is reasonably restricted and their impressive top end acceleration helps make up for this loss.
Simple answer. No
What a bout 197