Swayed by Critics? / Fiona Apple and the ‘perfect’ record
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- Опубліковано 30 чер 2024
- Hopefully this kicks up some interesting discussion, let me know your thoughts in the comments section below.
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Ironic that Pitchfork has been mocked for years, yet if nobody really cared what they said, we wouldn't be having this conversation... Clearly illustrates the influence they still have.
Some people still care. I personally don't. But if you are part of the industry (like Adam or any other critic) they still are obviously heavy weights.
I hate pitchfork for their hypocrisy and inconsistency, but when they drop a 10, then I know something's up. Kinda like Fantano, tho, I trust more on Fantano for reccs, as well as our boy right here, but it's really impressive anything getting a 10
@@davidsosa507 Pitchfork is also a group of people, so it's expected they won't be consistent.
Pitchforks recommendations usually aren't aren't bad but i think people tend to dislike them for seriously underrated albums that are at least decent, like lateralus
Ruhr Red Army Its not that Pitchfork has zero influence anymore, its that their influence is waning a lot. If the only time we care about their praise is when they give a perfect ten, then I wouldn’t say thats influential. I know last year I heard almost no buzz about their AOTY, I’d say thats pretty significant. Personally I’m okay with that because I think a community that hails Fantano is better than one that hails Pitchfork
As someone who is still extremely new to the music community I can only really look at these reviews and scores as a helpful guide through the seemingly insurmountable mountain of material I want to listen to. These scores and albums that have the most discussion around them help me to branch out to sounds and genres I wouldn't have known about otherwise. Whether I like the record personally or not it still sends me in a new direction of music discovery.
Cool comment. There was a guy, I can't remember who he was - and which magazine I read it in - and when I read it - but /he was a guy from NYC, the proper caricature of a kind of cynical, angry middle-aged music man. And he had a really good quote I've remembered for years, which was "What music needs is good editors." Basically saying that people who have their ears to the ground and who are really paying attention to what's going on are what keep good music flowing in a cultural sense.
I'll tell you what, as well, I prefer looking over a couple of critics' reviews than sifting through racism and sexism on 4chan's /mu/ and tepid discussion on reddit.
Exactly!! That’s why when I introduce my friends to my RYM lists, I tell them that anything 6/10 and above is a positive rating, and I would recommend if you show interest. They’re more metrics for sharing the art for me
@W 9797 Yeah man I've checked out loads. So far the best examples I could give would be that Daughters - You Won't Get What you want is probably my favourite album overall so far. In terms of one's that didn't live up to the praise that led me to listen to them, maybe Unsilent Death by nails, Pusha T's Daytona or MF DOOM MM.... FOOD.
@Mica-Spangled are you talking about the Deathspell Omega record from last year?
I feel the same way! Reading music reviews has definitely opened my mind to music that I never would have listened to or never would have known about, and taught me something about production or the album's context that I never would have understood. Sometimes I think its helpful to push yourself out of your own musical biases to see if you can see what another person finds beautiful about the music. Sometimes it doesn't work out and that's fine too. And sometimes I come to an album or track years later and everything clicks into place and I fall in love with it.
If you go back and read that Kid A review from Pitchfork, it's actually one of the cringiest things published on the internet. Kid A is an amazing album, don't get me wrong, but reading, I felt like the writer was seconds away from tearing off his pants and fucking the CD.
Lol, that's true! I love Kid A but that review was one of the most cringe-inducing things I've ever read.
The same guy that reviewed Kid A is responsible for Pitchfork's most infamous review, the 1.9/10 for Tool's Lateralus.
He also rated Mars Volta's Deloused in the Comatorium a 4.9/10 and Nine Inch Nails' The Fragile with a a 2/10.
@@arispan Yes, I too have seen Crash Thompson's Pitchfork video.
The primal, brooding guitar attack of "Optimistic" stomps like mating Tyrannosaurs.
Yep this is really deserving of it’s reputation as being one of the wackest p4k reviews of all time
@@grahamkristensen9301 I haven't
I know most people on Fantanos youtube channel are joking when they say 'Review this album so I can form my opinion about it', but I think there is a nugget of truth there. I think there is an element of herd mentality, and if you have 'reputable' source singing an albums praise, you don't want to feel left out for not enjoying it.
@Mica-Spangled maybe it did the opposite for you: Everyone likes I so I mustn't!
@Mica-Spangled Did you listen to it before you heard a lot of people praising it? If so, maybe you just weren't as into it as everyone else, and you recognised that because you came to your own opinion before you had your expectations heavily influenced. If you'd heard the praise beforehand, maybe you were expecting a lot more. I listened to Fetch the Bolt Cutters after I read Jenn Pelly's review for Pitchfork as well as Laura Barton's review for The Guardian. While I loved the record, I felt it had its flaws and I didn't enjoy it as much as The Idler Wheel or Tidal, and I think my lofty expectations may have played a role in that.
@Mica-Spangled Bandana was a case of hype. Probably a lot of people who got into Freddie Gibbs way after Pinata dropped and so Bandana was their moment to let everyone else know what they listen to. It was a good album, but no where near Pinata for me. It sounded like Madlib was more focused on creating Madlib style beats. Rather than the Pinata style of making Madlib style beats that were perfect for someone like Freddie Gibbs. Same thing with Blonde in my opinion, the album is very good but Channel Orange was generational - it's just that a lot more people were around for the release date of Blonde.
I also think there has to be some kind of objective quality to what makes music good. I used to love M83’s album Hurry Up, We’re Dreaming. Then I watched Fantano’s review and he pointed out aspects of the album that were really bad. When I went to listen to it again I couldn’t stop thinking about how terrible the pacing was in the album. So much filler and not enough actual good songs (midnight city will always be near and dear to my heart though).
I totally agree that watching a review does influence your opinion, and it’s probably alright.
@@JohnnyGraves_ I think the oppisite. Blond is more "generational" and channel orange really didnt age that well
It's strange. Most music fans would consider Pitchfork to be fairly irrelevant when it comes to the consensus on music. It's almost akin to the Oscars, whereby most music fans dismiss Pitchfork as predictable fluff that typically gets it wrong. But once they drop something as 'perfect' , it's almost as if this previous bias is removed and suddenly pitchfork is welcome back into the discussion of music criticism? Idk. Feels weird that Pitchfork is suddenly being considered the arbiter of quality.
Exactly!
They're hit or miss but produce generally good content in my opinion, especially their various types of non-review videos on UA-cam.
Their scores can be a bit stupid sometimes, however the actual writing of their reviews is usually very well informed stuff.
Totally agree with you!
Funny though how people only disregard Pitchfork's opinion when they don't agree with the score. I usually don't care most about the score but descriptions of some records i find quite problematic, some writters there tend to go for ad hominem types of arguments on artist instead of talking about the record itself.
It's like when Time Magazine releseas the issue with Person of the Year and everybody has something to say about it even though nobody reads or cares for it the rest of the year
Broke: listening to music because it's at the top of the charts
Woke: listening to music because it has the best critic scores
Bespoke: listening to music because the album cover looks cool
i have never felt a greater kinship to a youtube comment
Listening to an album because the cover looks cool is 100% the way to go when it comes to listening to music. I N R A I N B O W S, The Seer, TPAB, Melodrama, Plastic Beach, In The Court Of The Crimson King and UNDERNEATH, all awesome covers, all terrific albums.
Uncluded art angels album cover low key kinda sucks
@@superwildejellyfish Even bad albums have good covers, take The Devil's Rain by Misfits as an example. But, at the same time good albums can have bad covers, like Nothing to Fear by Oingo boingo, or Turn the Radio Off by Reel Big Fish. That's the way I see things at least.
Joke: listening to music that actual causes you to feel something
I'll give her new record 17 apples. That score may change once I actually listen to it.
tarquinnff3 17 apples? We talking Granny Smiths?
underrated comment 💀💀💀
I just listened to it a few days ago. It definitely has all the quirkiness, lyricism, cleverness and chaos that I've come to love and expect from the queen.
Deep Cuts-And the perilous task of asking for nuance on the internet.
N-nuance??? Impossible! YOURE EITHER WITH US OR AGAINST US!! BURN THE WITCH!! AHHHHHHHHHH
I think Fantano made a great case for numerical scores, saying something along the lines that it’s not necessarily a set-in-stone comment on the music itself, but rather of his subjective enjoyment of the music. So when a critic comes out with a perfect score, it does affect my expectations a bit; but the way I approach it is not: “this album is a 10, so I must see the genius of it”, but rather “this critic/publication is ABSOLUTELY head over heels for this album. So I’ll be looking out for which qualities made this critic love the album”.
In the end the score means nothing without the review, so that’s what one should focus on the most (after the music, of course)
A perfect score should not be interpreted as “this album is beyond criticism”. It should be a writer’s tool for saying “THIS ALBUM DESERVES YOUR ATTENTION”
I think most people are having problems with Fantano's critic about this album and the things he missed, not the score itself. Just wanted to say it since a lot of his fans don't get it why people are mad.
K A yeah exactly. no matter what number you give it, fetch the bolt cutters deserves a better thought out review. even if you don’t like it, you can’t argue that the music and lyrics are incredibly complex and that just can’t be dissected in EIGHT minutes. that’s what angered me about his review, especially when he misinterpreted the lyrics on Newspaper, which are very clear in their meaning. it tells me he really didn’t take his time with an album that demands patience. it is funny how people are so polarized between the scores of 7 and 8....if he had given it an 8 i feel like no one would be upset even though it’s just 1 higher lol.
@@ruthylynch9201 tbh I feel like fantano just...isn't really into lyrics. Which is fine! He can like what he likes!
But there's a certain kind of lyric-heavy album that his reviews tend to do a disservice to -- not for the number he gives or his opinion or whatever, but just for not really addressing lyrics/thematic elements enough in an overall sense or with sufficient nuance when they are one of the bigger standing points of the album. And that is a real shame, because even when I've disagreed with him on an album (which happens _a lot_ lol!), I've found his criticism on the "how it sounds and flows" side to be quite thoughtful and informative.
Couldn't have said it more perfectly
Thank you. A lot of people don’t seem to understand perfect scores or “classics” are not beyond criticism.
I really agree with what you're saying here Oliver. Sometimes when I see such "seminal" albums, albums which are supposed to be so big that they change everything on your music listening horizons, that I sort of get afraid of listening to the album in the first place in case I don't get it like all the people do.
The beauty of music is that not everyone enjoys it the same way, different perspectives, even when negative, can help improve the experience by giving you ideas you normally wouldn’t have thought of. :)
Personally when I hype up an album in my mind before I listen it often makes the experience better for me. Imo bolt cutters was alright but in no way perfect or the aoty tho
from personal experience, whenever I listen to such a lauded album, there's always a point where the insane hype for it clashes with the actual reality of the album - that it's just music, made by people. I feel like so often the most hyped up albums end up being portrayed as these monolithic, life-changing pieces of art whose amazingness is so self evident that you should immediately understand it, and that expectation can actually take away from your ability to process them. It happened with me the first time I listened to Kid A - one of my favourite albums now, but the difference between expectation and reality on the first listen was really offputting
@@crungus.5427 100% agree with you, i feel the same thing about Blue by Joni Mitchell.
I think the Fiona Apple album is really solid! It sounds like Fiona at her most comfortable and just taking a lot of the things that she did on The Idler Wheel and doubling down on it
I totally agree with you about not ranking albums numerically. Every piece of art is different and cannot be compared on the same scale.
i agree as well, but i also think it's valid to use a numerical scale to express your personal level of enjoyment of the album e.g. fantano
What about evaluating a work of art on its own merits? I think that focusing on the album itself and applying some general criteria (songwriting, consistency, flow, performances, production, etc) is a healthy way of analysing and potentially giving it a rating of some sort. Of course, if the album comes from an artist whose work you're already familiar with, some bias might be inevitable (stuff like "this isn't as good as x" or "this is even better than x"), but again, I feel focusing on what a record has to offer on its own can really help.
Scott Paton Levin that’s the way litterature reviews often are written (which, to me, says that it has higher status - it’s older, of course, and probably comes from a essayist tradition - it’s too complex too be summed up in a score)
@Mica-Spangled Fantanos rating is based upon his level of enjoynment of a record. It's the same as: I donť like it, I like parts of it, its ok, I like It, I love it scale. Just change your feelings from words into a specific number.
I do personally like to rate albums with numbers just because it's easy way to remember how you felt about records at certain point in time and makes your library easier to get through. My brain just simply can't hold everything inside, but because I know what certain number means to me it reminds me of the enjoynment of the record and I am more likely to listen to it again in the future.
Fiona is just superb and expands as an artist with every record.
Every ten years. It's like they're on a schedule.
Edit: This comment is meant to be nothing more than a silly joke. Not really trying to make any serious conspiratorial implications.
They're iconic long existing(?) artists and their highly anticipated albums too. Idk if it's a conspiracy but I'm sure hype and time passed had a little to do with it.
Not much of a schedule given this is the only 10 year gap they’ve had? Wilco and Source Tags and Codes got 10s in 2002
That means most of us have a chance to make a perfect record by 2030
@Mica-Spangled I apologize if I caused any offense. I was trying to make a silly joke and didn't really put any thought into it. I didn't want to imply any conspiratorial theories. I also want to add I quite liked the album and the review written about it.
Obvious joke is a joke, can’t believe that edit was even required lol
I still think “Idler Wheel” is a perfect album.
The Idler Wheel is a masterpiece IMO.
much prefer it to this new one but both of them are great in their own ways
The idler wheel is my favourite Fiona record...
I feel you. For me, it's hard to say at the moment. After living with Idler Wheel for 8 years, it would be nearly impossible for FTBC to take its spot after a few days. Love the new album though. I'm looking forward to growing with it.
I think Tidal is a perfect record
Wholeheartedly agree. As soon as any art is touted as a masterpiece, 90% of the discussion around it is whether or not that's true. I do, however, think there's still a place for perfect scores. In my mind the Fetch the Bolt Cutters definitely isn't perfect but it has so much to say that you just won't get without spending time with it. I doubt I would've listened to it as many times as I have without that score.
So yeah a 10/10 score is a bit silly but it gives people a real motivation to sit with a more complex record for longer than they usually would. I think it should probably be reserved for the kind of music that requires that patience. When you think of it that way then it doesn't really matter whether the score affects your approach, you end up coming away having properly listened.
It creates a dilemma for the critic though. I think most would agree that it takes at least a few years for an album to really be cemented as a masterpiece, but a critic can only listen to an album for maybe a week or two before their review is due to be published. I think we've all had albums that we absolutely loved the first few times we've listened, but then found that they totally lacked any sort of staying power and stopped listening after a few months.
If there's an album they can't find fault with, what are they to do? Give it a 10 and hope that the album doesn't lose it's appeal? Maybe the solution is to have a less granular ranking scale (like Roger Ebert's "Thumbs Up" scale), since the difference between a 9 and 10 can only be truly determined with the test of time
Nice profile pic
I saw the 10, thought oh shit I'll listen gotta be fairly decent at least! Wasn't my jam in the slightest
@@moolcool It is a big dilemma for critics you're right. Think there's a real intuitive skill in being able to recognise what will be considered a classic and it's not something you will always get right. I think maybe certain critics who live and breath music may have their finger on the pulse a little more but you'll only know after a few years.
I will say that proclaiming a work of art is perfect just after it came out creates a weird paradox thingy. Is something a masterpiece because of the art itself or because of the narrative that's been set? Is it a classic because it's a 10 or is it a 10 because it's a classic?
I really enjoy the new album, but I preface my recommendations to my friends by saying, “I don’t want to overhype it for you, but it’s really good!”
Ironically, Fiona Apple has always had these strangely polarizing qualities about her music. I remember being a teenager and buying her first album "Tidal". It had a weird love/hate relationship with music fans at the time. It was the only pop music album I owned, and the only other album I purchased that year was Downloads "The Eyes of Stanley Pain" (arguably) the greatest industrial/noise album of all time. My hardcore music friends judged the shit out of me for enjoying Tidal; it was flawed, but had a bluesy quality to it that I found mesmerizing. You have to go with your gut; you have to know what are the sounds that you will return to, and make no excuses for your taste to anyone.
Prana Khan definitely and that album is way better than this release by her.
Kids From The North For you maybe. They’re vastly different albums. Truly apples (hah) and oranges.
Tidal is her best record
@@swift-rk1fx No. The Idler Wheel..., Fetch the Bolt Cutters and When the Fan hits the Pawn... are all better.
why tidal was flawed?
I think that perfect ten actually made me more critical of the record, as if I was purposefully trying to find something wrong with it that the professional critics have missed.
I'm only on my second listen now and I'm not sure what to conclude about this record yet other than that I enjoy it very much.
I was actually quite fortunate with this; my girlfriend had the album advertised on Spotify so put it on when we got up on Friday. I didn't know what we were listening to (I've never really listened to her previous records despite being aware of them), but stayed quiet and listened, as the album progressed I HAD to ask what was playing because I was completely enthralled. I then looked up the record and saw these glowing reviews online. I don't think I'm even close to unwrapping the layers of this, but I know it's something I want to do, rather than feel obliged or I have to.
Luckily I didn't see the pitchfork review before listening to "Fetch th Bolt Cutters". I had this experience when listening to TPAB for the first time. Luckily that Record is so catchy and immediate that, even when you don't understand everything that goes on in the lyrics immediately, it is still recognizable as a masterpiece on the first listen.
Fetch the Boltcutters was similarly fascinating in the first listen. It is so odd and so catchy that it just makes me want to dig deeper into it. What I love most about the album so far, are the vocals which flow perfectly with the music, without sacrificing any lyrical qualities.
In the same exact boat man. I’ve been following Fiona for a while and I’ve loved her music even prior to this release, so I knew I was going to love this regardless. And honestly, I’ve been absolutely obsessed with it since it came out.
However when I saw the reviews I was sort of going back and forth between “WHAT!!” and disappointment. I mean this in the sense the fact that I’m stoked that this album is receiving insane amounts of praise, but the reviews behind them are reeeeeeaaaaaallly bad. Poorly written, only touched upon cherry-picked lyrics barely going in depth on the actual music behind it. All it does is confirm my opinion that 95% of critics are utterly terrible
Same here. I listened to FTBC midnight on release.... then listened again.... then I saw that 100 on Metacritic and was like WTF. Not because I don't like the album. So far I want to say that I love it; I keep coming back to it over and over and I still don't fully understand why cause I'm digesting it still. It's just crazy to think such definitive thoughts could have existed on the day of release, like have those publications had the album for a week or two longer than us maybe?
@@faybiel4956 Not sure about this record, but reviewers do often get early copies of albums!
Do you know of an app or website that will alert you of album releases without giving these kind of scores? I found out that Fetch the Bolt Cutters dropped from AOTY. So I saw it had a user score of 88, so I was coming into it expecting it to be damn good.
Unfortunately, even though Fiona Apple is my favorite artist and I was waiting with held breath to hear Fetch the Bolt Cutters, I still wasn't able to hear it until I already heard about the 10 review.
I'm having to disseminate my thoughts with each listen to try to remove the bias (which is especially hard as I already have incredibly high expectations of her, even without a "perfect" review).
It’s a good album. It’s raw, deep, and has a beautiful handmade vibe. It’s okay if you don’t like it, but calling people “sheep” because they enjoy music that they like is not epic.
So true bestie
Oath.
As a massive fan of the world's most successful musical act (and most of my favourite artists are mainstream and both critically and commercially acclaimed), I get called a sheep a lot of the time, yet they have zero clue how deep my adoration is, and yet how many other artists I love and appreciate from all kinds of genres. Even still, this group consistently give me the most enjoyment and by a fair margin. I can't help it... but as if there should be a negative implication anyway.
I actually don't mind positive reviews at all, they shine a light on albums that some people might not have heard of otherwise. I think they also help listeners spend more time looking for what other people see in that album, and ultimately help people enjoy it more. I have more of a problem with negative reviews which can ruin the listening experience for some people who might otherwise have enjoyed the album.
Yes!
Agreed.
Totally agree. This comment doesn't have enough likes.
Bit of an obvious conundrum there. You can't give everything a positive review or it totally ruins the point and makes any positive review meaningless. Also letting someone's negative opinion on something influence your own or offend you is a personal problem and is on you.
To me Fiona Apple was always cut from the same cloth as Kate bush as far as artistry creativity and production quality. Kate was more eccentric but like her, Fiona doesn’t rely on conventional romance tropes that most singers do in their lyrics. They’re just a bit more creative with their subject matters in my eyes. And when they do write about romance, it’s more nuanced and specific rather than the traditional broad spectrum of romantic love that singers fall into in order to appeal to a wider audience. The art often (not always) gets lost when made to appeal to a wider audience. Tom Waits is like a female Kate Bush as far as uniqueness and eccentricity
Kate Bush is female. I think maybe you meant Waits is a male Kate Bush?
Ever notice how no matter if the similarities out weight the differences, we still feel compelled to qualify it when comparing men and women? Always have to make a bigger deal out of a dick that it is......😆 It's never as big a deal as it's made out to be!
@@ThePimmy11I know what you mean, but that could arguably be disrespectful to Tom waits on other grounds. Maybe instead we can say Kate Bush is like Tom Waits (or Fiona Apple) in making whatever the point... That also gives opportunity for those with a milder bias to recognize and rethink it.
Personally I know I would still adore this album even if Pitchfork hated it because I still adore Code Orange's album
That said, while I would definitely have gotten around to listening to the album eventually because I like Fiona Apple, it wouldn't have been so immediate on my agenda without the Pitchfork rating
Overall (and to mostly echo your sentiments) I find ratings as useful guides as to what I might enjoy but I find the whole idea of giving an objective score to a subjective medium and rating every album on the same scale ridiculous
I was initially very conscious of the perfect score, but after some time now and many listens, I find the songs, the lyrics and the beats on the album to haunt me and my actual appreciation of the record trumps the reception. The songs play in my head when I fall asleep and I've lost count of how many times I've woken up with the piano from Under The Table in my head. Definitely one of the most interesting records I have heard, even though the last part is kind of so so.
I’m already a Fiona fan, so I stayed up until midnight and began listening to it the minute it dropped (not subject to any review influence) The arrangements were so complex I had to turn off the light and sit in darkness as I listened to it. I couldn’t help but feel myself cheesing with a broad smile coming across my face to the nuances in percussion, piano, time signature changes, melody, and just all the choices she made in constructing and conveying each song. Not to mention, she is one of the best lyricists. She got bars! 10/10
Listening to this album late in the night was one of the best experiences I've had in a while. Just a thoroughly engaging piece of work.
Listening in complete darkness is the best way to listen to music
Preferably laying flat on your back on the floor
I did the exact same thing. I turned off the lights and listened to the album when it dropped at midnight. I couldn't stop smiling while listening to it. I don't think I have ever been this excited about an album before. I don't know much about music reviews and I hadn't read any yet when I first listened to the album, so I could've only hoped others would feel the same about Fetch The Bolt Cutters as I did.
I can relate to all of this! After a while I kept listening to this while out at night during quarantine, this relentless hot humid part of the summer and I was having the worst personal time. I couldn’t sleep and would go for a walk.... I wasn’t a runner and I accidentally started running. Or skipping... or headbanging.. nobody was around in my suburban neighborhood and I didn’t care. It was too hot any other time of day to run for me and I wasn’t getting enough movement. This got me started and was the most listened album of the year. It helped keep me sane, I swear...
Agreed. She is literally a lyrical genius! Xoxo
"And this album's only been out three days"
I had a laugh at the incredulity in your voice lol
The anti-bandwagon part is really interesting.
Patrician Chartposting in a nutshell.
I found it to be the least interesting part actually
@@adam6661 lmao love you
It's quite annoying, really. A lot of people attempt to undercut a great artist with subjective opinions. I'm not even the biggest supporter of critical ratings, but this really is a great album
/mu/
As a reviewer, there was a period when I switched to the numerical system. After a month or so, I had grown quite tired from it. I agree that such a trend is reductive and at times (had I been a reviewer of fame and high dignity) oppressive towards listeners. Critical opinions obviously matter, but we could do better about our controlling effect, namely omitting the number-oriented system and focus on constructive criticism.
As for Fetch the Bolt Cutters, I just love it. It shows the strength of songwriter to an extent that rarely is transmitted to us. I know it can't be up to everyone's taste, and I know with universal critical consensus it will have its own oppositions as a backlash. It saddens me that some of that backlash will only stem from the exact same consensus and not the art itself, but hey what can you do. That's how popular culture goes.
@Mica-Spangled True. Just looking at some of the reviews on RYM it seems the anti-bandwagon has already began. It incredibly immature to dismiss an album just because of a glowing review to make yourself look special for going against the grain.
I also listened to the album before finding out about the P4K review and I already loved it. I'm enjoying it more and more with each listen. It makes me happy to know the album is getting a lot of positive reception but I would have felt the same way without it.
Mica-Spangled My thoughts exactly! People are discrediting the substance of the review because of the score. The writing is excellent and positions the album in not just a musical context but also a political and personal context. Criticism shouldn't just be about if a work is good or not it should help position the work as an object in the world.
i listened to the album upon release and then like ignored it for a lot of time, and luckily didnt come across any articles or reviews and such. and i think we all have had that specific feeling about an album where u just kinda crave it for no reason, and then when i listened again it was a fresh start. and now as i have listened multiple times its becomming better and better
To add to your point about making comparisons, i think pitchfork is a main culprit of this by using decimals aswell as a numerical scoring system. It's like they've carefully measured each element of the record to come to this conclusion of an album gaining a 7.6 rating, for example. This makes even less sense when people try to gain comparisons as to how one record scored 0.1 higher than another, again something which shouldn't be done.
One of my favorite things when discussing Pitchfork is how one of their reviewers gave Lateralus by Tool a 1.9 and The Fragile by Nine Inch Nails a 2.0 lmao
This channel is so excellent
Mark Shortall i love that this young man encourages you to listen to whatever you want... and he has no toxic fanbase. My taste has shifted since i started watching his videos and not only Fantano’s.
10/10
@@emie1170 I feel a lot of people fail to realize the point of Fantano's reviews. He grades his albums based on how he liked them and doesn't tell anyone what's good and what's bad.
The problem is that people consider his scores as a definitive proof of what's good and what isn't and then act like dicks about it when talking about music and will often try to change their mind just because Melon rated them differently than they enjoyed it.
I personally quite disliked Fetch The Bolt Cutters, but I'd never change my mind if let's say Fantano (or any other music reviewer) liked it. It's all a subjective opinion. However, I do use reviews on sites such as Pitchfork, Loudwire or youtube channels such as Fantano's purely for a guide on what I'll listen to potentially. It doesn't mean I'll like it or hate it when I listen to it.
king_of_ thorns yeah I completely agrees. And i love the fact that fantano rates based on how he feels, wether its an artist he likes or not. And he doesn’t act like a 10 is undoubtedly better than a 9.
The fans however, are the ones that make it out to be like so. Falling in that toxic area where you are judged for liking or not liking something.
And he’s my guide as well, he has turned me on to some great ass artists.
However, mr Deepcuts here takes the cake for my favorite music snub out there
Emi E yeah. I’ve watched Fantano for…10 years, I guess, but I do it less - which probably has more to do with me being interested in other types of music or other ways of talking about it (or not caring so much about talk at all, at least in a strictly review-sense, but just listening).
I can’t remember when the comment section started become what it has became. Maybe around Kendrick Lamar’s To Pimp a Butterfly? Maybe it have played a part why I’m not watching as much, as well.
There is a potential in a comment section where the review can become a starting point for a discussion. One thing can lead to another by recommendations and alike.
A review shouldn’t be something static. I use them for guides too.
Since I frequent RYM a lot, I saw Fiona Apple released a new album. I never listened to her work before, so I went in to it totally blind. When I finished listening to it I was amazed at how good it was. Funnily enough, even in the start there was high praise. Much before Pitchfork did their review.
“Writing about music is like dancing about architecture”. I always attributed that quote to Frank Zappa, but in looking it up to make this comment, it appears the origin is debated. Sentiment still stands though. Giving an album a perfect 10 score is an entirely arbitrary idea. That said, Kid A is one of my favourite albums ever and I wouldn’t even class myself as a Radiohead fan. I’m indifferent to all their albums pre and post Kid A.
Kris McEwan huh, that’s interesting to me how Kid A is one of your favourite albums, at the same time as you are indifferent to their other work. Kid A is what made me a Radiohead fan. You write albums. I’m sure there are some other songs outside of Kid A that you like (or dislike)? Like on Amnesiac?
@@RayasNegroOvejas As someone who is into their other albums, kid a doesn't click with me because it feels far too robotic and stiff.
OK Computer made me a Radiohead fan. But, Kid A left me empty and confused at first, but still got me into it. Speaking of Zappa, It's really hard to get into his discography. It's so weird and complex. But, I end up only listened to Hot Rats as a whole. The Grand Wazoo is a fine album too.
Kia A has some a very great tracks like Motion Picture, National Anthem but still overrated in comparison with In Rainbow. You can clearly see how other critics were more stingy in praise for Kid A and that's gives a more complex view. But albums like TPAB or FTBC had a majority a 10 points reviews.
When the pawn and Extrodendary machine are both perfect records.
Agree with WTP. EM is great but has a few flaws IMO. Both are far superior to TIW and FTBC. I just don't understand the nearly unanimous praise of those albums.
lol
@@michaelsmith1262 WTP is a magnum opus level work, but Idler Wheel and FTBC are far, far better than EM. EM is her worst record hands down (still a high bar for Fiona given how good an artist she is, but it is the red headed stepchild of her 5 albums).
I started listening to Fiona Apple for the first time a few weeks ago, having no idea she was about to release a new project! I’m so happy with it. I think that Pitchfork’s decision to parcel out a perfect ten every few years pulls people in, and those who already love an artist want to see that artist’s project receiving all the accolades.
I listened to the album the second it was available on Google play music, before most big reviews came out. I listened to it 4 times in a row, it was that brilliant and captivating. To be honest, Pitchfork should've awarded it an 11.
I listened to To Pimp A Butterfly since it was hailed as the album of the decade. While I did enjoy aspects of the album, I know if I was to go back and listen again I would only be doing so for the sake of trying to find the so called 'genius' that critics were hailing it for in the first place.
On the flip side of this, I've found plenty of my favourite albums simply by looking at what certain people view as the best; Field of Reeds (thanks Oliver) and The Money Store both fall into this.
Personally, I think that music listening and discovery is at it's best when there's as little outside input as possible and it's just the individual figuring out what they like for themselves. Critical opinion can point a person in the right direction however it's more essential for an individual to listen to what they like as opposed to what they're supposed to like. IMO
It seems most of it just called it a genius because of the subject matter. The best tracks were really just the more jazzy ones and all of that went away with the next record.
It took me about 6 listens over the course of five years to "get" TPAB. And the first time I heard MBDTF I was woefully unprepared. A lot of the best art is really difficult, and when its especially rooted in racial or sexual experiences not our own, that difficulty can be more pronounced. There is a density of sonic and literary qualities to TPAB that makes it one of the greats, and that also makes it super difficult. People, all people, rarely love things challenging on first go. I'd strongly encourage you sometime (it doesn't matter when) to go back to it without critics in mind. Watch some essay videos on it. It's a powerful piece of art that isn't easily accessible, but is one worth taking the time to appreciate.
i strongly agree with your last paragraph, music listening is so much better when you search for it with very little outside input or just accidentally stumble upon it. like i remember the first time i knew death grips from a meme, i like them a lot i listen to them for 2 years before realizing they are literally a walking meme and praised a lot in the music community.
but i think external input is really important too, it certainly helps you discover more music and let you engage in a discussion about music, and personally i wouldnt know a lot of bands or music without fantano and instagram music pages. fantano certainly helps me appreciate music more by make me know how to inspect qualities that make an album good, although sometimes i disagree a lot. the ooz is 10 for me
if i didnt know him maybe i would still say death grips is good because "haha addicting funny loud screaming music"
Sometimes, when listening to a totally random or obscure record I will picture the album receiving a 10 from fantano or having an outstanding score on rym, just to see how it influences my experience. It’s definitely a trip, and it’s very interesting how I feel it effects my listening.
I personally avoid having conversations about albums that receive these kinds of ratings because it becomes very unlikely that any given person is going to have anything nuanced to say about it that isn't just straight praise or vitriol. I think if you can't think of at least one good and one bad thing about a work, you haven't really taken time to understand it at all. And I'd rather not get into pointless arguments because someone felt insulted by the fact that I don't hear things the way they do.
Definitely agreed, but I have a few exceptions. Like in my opinion the Cure’s Disintegration is a perfect album - There’s nothing I’d change about that one at all, so I can’t think of any bad things about it
I see your point with how reading reviews before you listen to the album itself creates a bias. I know Myke C-Town never looks at reviews until he reviews it himself, and this is something I follow as well. I'm also very wary of the praise, as it's only been three days. However, I think the fact that this album has garnered so many perfect scores is still a testament to how this album already has and will impact the music industry. While I, and many others, hate pitchfork, the albums that have received perfect 10's are all still albums that are talked about to this day, and its influences can be seen in some corner of music today. Talk Talk's Spirit of Eden & Laughing Stock, Slint's Spiderland, Prince's Purple Rain, and many more albums have the perfect 10 from pitchfork. While I can see a handful of perfect 10's that have not aged well or aren't as fondly looked at now (I personally rolled my eyes when I saw Modest Mouse's The Lonesome Crowded West got a perfect 10), it is the fact that they received a perfect 10 during its release that makes the score significant.
I think Fiona Apple receiving the perfect 10 out of 10 does not mean that is a perfect album with no flaws whatsoever. I believe it to be that this is the album that defines this moment in history, and music. Since Tidal, Fiona Apple has made a clear mission statement to be that strong, empowering voice for women. This album shows how that voice grew from her debut to now. Her growth is immense. The artistic choices also speak to the current events as of now. She uses chairs, the floor, even her dogs, anything she can find in her house to make her music. It speaks to the artist that are quarantined and want to create something significant. This album empowers the D.I.Y. aesthetic and pulls it off very well. The themes of liberation, oppression, and speaking up for yourselves are all themes that our current time needs. Fetch the Boltcutters is an answer to that.
I also believe that a perfect 10, especially for a genre-bending album like this, is an indicator of where the audience wants the industry to go. Many of us didn't know we wanted bat-shit crazy experimental music until Death Grips came crashing into the scene with Ex-Military, The Money Store and No Love Deep Web. Right after 2012, you could see a large influx of experimental hip-hop flow into the industry, whether it be an underground artist finally finding an audience or an established artist (cough cough Kanye) trying to dabble in this new demanded direction. While I'm uncertain what direction Fetch the Bolt Cutters could take the industry, I'm certain that an impact will be made. I can already feel that artists are feeling challenged to top the creativity that Fiona Apple showcases in Fetch the Boltcutters. At the very least, its great competition.
H.G. Guinto love this. regardless of “perfection,” i know this album will be talked about for along time because it is so unique and powerful.
I agree with this comment so much! This album saved me in the pandemic!
Re, Death Grips, totally see you point, though personally I knew I wanted batshit, had been following Zach from before then :))
I found myself nodding to every point you made in this video. Very well made!
I think every music fan that reads/watches reviews have been swayed at least once. There have been quite a few critically acclaimed albums that personally didn't resonate with me.
I admit the critical acclaim played a part in me listening to Fetch The Bolt Cutters, but I actually saw Shameika on my UA-cam feed and became instantly curious about the record, then when I looked up the album, I saw the reviews and that definitely added to my curiosity. I've never heard anything like the album and every second was intriguing. I can't say I absolutely fell in love at first listen, but I definitely wanted to hear it again.
Personally, I've got enough experience disagreeing with professional music critics that I take the reviews with a grain of salt - though a rare perfect score, if it is truly rare by a reviewer (once a decade is pretty damn rare), does make me interested in hearing the record.
I've listened through "Fetch The Bolt Cutters" several times now, and I have to say that I love the album. I think it genulinely will make it into that rare group of records that I keep returning to, a long time after they come out. It's certaily good enough that I'm buying the physical CD with the booklet, something I havent' done in at least a decade for any record.
So, it seems that here I'm agreeing with the critical consensus. I can see though that not eveybody's going to like it. It's low-fi, sometimes chaotic tunes just hit my sweet spot.
It's not just Pitchfork - Fetch has an absolutely absurd 100 on Metacritic currently. I have no idea why it's been this well received - I think it's a solid 7, personally, and not even as strong as Extraordinary Machine - but it's interesting to see how the reviews are feeding into each other.
Fun fact. Before FTBC Fiona was an underrated Singer songwriter. Now she got all this attention she deserves but with her weakest album to date. Her PERFECT ALBUM is Idler Wheel definitely,l not this new one. Despite this FTBC a good record. But all people who never listened to Fiona should know that all her albums stronger than FTBC
@@user-ym7kq8bd8k it's crazy how something considered so irrelevant as Pitchfork when it comes to reviewing music can have such a huge impact on everyone because they said something that can get lots of attention. people should learn to listen to records a sufficent ammount of times by themselves before checking out other opinions
Loved it before knowing what PF scored it. Fantastic lyricism so I was sucked in from the start. This is also my first full Fiona A album listen so now I'm definitely checking out her previous work.
Her previous albums more complicated and requires more listen spins than FTBC, excepting Extraordinary Machine
You have no idea how glad I am you covered this, because it makes me feel like I must love every single 10. The praise adds all of the pleasure on me as a common listener, which actually ruins it for me sometimes. If I don’t like it, I end up feeling like I’m not smart enough to “get” this critical darling, and I start to judge my own taste. Your entire part of forcing one to like it, say we like it, but never come back to it is unbelievably true. I think that maybe if I never found out about the score, then I wouldn’t have felt so weird about it, but I likely might have not even checked it out in the first place. It’s a very polarizing phenomenon.
I think the same definitely works for when an album gets universally panned. I start to feel guilty or begin to question my own taste whenever I happen to like one.
That being said, I do love “Fetch the Bolt Cutters”, it’s probably the first massively loved record I can actually agree with for the first time, but I listened to it BEFORE I found out about the massive hype it got. Maybe if I saw all of its exposure, I just might have not liked it.
I've loved Fiona Apple since the fist time I saw a show where she played, I was fascinated and had to get all the music she had released by then. I've loved every album since. When Fetch the Bolt Cutters came out I found out by youtube recommendations, not by its success with the critics. Listened to it and didn't know what to think, I wasn't feeling it, but decided to give it a chance by listening a few more times, and little by little I got captivated by it. It's strange, but it's it has so much texture, all the different sounds and ranges in the voice, all the emotions, the clever lyrics, the rhythm, the percussions. It's the main album I've listened to this year. Then I found out the critics had loved the album, and I have to say I think it's well deserved.
Fetch The Bolt Cutters is deep and awesome. And really needed exactly now. Music criticism (like film criticism, etc.) can be enjoyable and enlightening but it (in my opinion) shouldn't be taken too seriously. As a listener, the only opinion that truly matters is your own. And that opinion will often change with time. I think it's wonderful that Fiona Apple was able to release an album so absurdly quietly and that quiet release is knocking a lot of us back on our heels. I think it's a wonderful thing... could we (dare I dream?) be entering a new, extra exciting period of American 'Popular' Music? If we're in the beginning or middle of something like that, it's hard to know when it's washing over you ... you usually only really see that in the rearview mirror... when it's already passed by.
I like the idea of giving grades to pieces of art. I think it more in accordance to using adjectives. It’s not saying a given person sought to imply the grade he/she has given was a completely objectively science-accurate one. Rather it was an indicator of how subjectively this person reacted to the piece of art in question, and that, in accretion to the things written or spoken, may give you an idea of, at first time, what to do expect from the work in question, and then to enter into a conversation with it and the piece of criticism itself.
In time you also get to know how a certain critic expresses him/herself. I find it specially helpful in film criticism. There are critics I know are always completely politically biased, so I take what they write with more than a grain of salt. Others I trust more, and just seeing they’ve given a film a good grade might make me want to blindly buy a ticket to watch it.
I really love the album, then again I've always found myself assaulted in _a good way_ with the tone of her voice. I've been waiting for her album to come out forever so when it did I was just taken by it. A perfect score doesn't seem too far out the gate for me because now it seems that her music doesn't seem so concerned with an image but more with sound. Anyways, I just found your channel, and this video really drew me in. Lastly, I listened to the album completely without any media bias, I was at work, I checked my cell and found out her album had just released, after work I listened to the entire thing.
I wasn't even thinking of a rating as strange as that sounds. I was like _"WOW, I'm so glad she decided to release this especially when I needed to hear it."_ because to be honest, I hadn't expected anything from her as she just wasn't on my mind until she was.
It's a double edged sword really. Publications like Pitchfork definitely serve a purpose by bringing albums to the attention of people who otherwise would never have listened to it, which of course is a good thing. However, I agree with you that just giving an album a numerical score seems pretty shallow and superficial to me. The over-emphasis on 'perfect' albums by using a numerical scale feels like a consequence of the rym/fantano/mu core culture surrounding musical discussion on the internet. Personally, I've always struggled comparing my favourite albums across different genres with one another, as they mean so much to me for completely different reasons.
I've been a fan of Fiona since the beginning and I think this is a great album, it is definitely growing on me with subsequent listens but my personal favorite of hers will likely always be When The Pawn... for personal reasons and that's just the way music works.
The first couple of times I heard Bitches Brew I forced my self through it. Same with Enter the Wu-tang. Now their some of my favourite albums. Believing the hype can lead to good experiences and open you to new types of music.
Saku Satola That’s actually kinda true. I remember forcing myself to listen to Kid A by Radiohead multiple times, thinking “wtf is this crap? I really don’t get the appeal.” Then it slowly started to click with me and now I can gladly say that album changed my perception of music for the better.
I had the same feeling with Bitches Brew. I forced myself to keep listening again and again until it finally clicked. Some of the best albums require you to work a bit more to 'get' them. It's a nice challenge.
Saku Satola I listened to Bitches Brew recently again as it turned 50. I hadn’t done it for some time and I was almost surprised how easy on the ears it was.
Yes, Perfect example. Bitches Brew clicking for me was such a moment I remember telling my husband about it. Kid A is a good example that took a few listens. I can think of so many albums like that from Aphex to Autechre to PJ Harvey to Fever Ray that later became favorites. This one was an instant one for me but I already loved this direction from Idler Wheel.
i honestly found it surprising how easy bitches brew was of a listen to me. i had heard it to be quite a tough listen but i was thoroughly engaged and enjoyed it the first time around. however some albums like velvet underground and nico and rubber soul i have yet to enjoy as a lot of people have
I managed to listen to the Fiona Apple record before reading any reviews and I was genuinely moved to tears and left in goosebumps by it, I guess that was strengthened when I saw the Pitchfork review, however i think if i read the review and then listened to the album it probably wouldn't have had the same effect due to the unrelenting hype. Weird.
One of your best and well thought out videos great job! Love the points brought up here. I definitely am swayed when going into a record it’s been so highly regarded, whether that’s been for a few months or years or even dated decades prior. There is that level of “I must like this or at least appreciate it and if not then my music taste is subpar” going into these records.
However, I do love reviews and read and watch them often. In fact my opinions on records change so much, and there are so many albums I like more as I listen to them again. (I could never be a critic because of this.) I think they help me find a sense of what to listen to, and where to go from there after. I’ve found some of my favorite artists, albums and songs just from reviews. But the overall idea of it being a huge weight in how I choose my music is definitely a factor
I think about this when I'm about to listen to one of the "best albums of all time" that I haven't heard before. There's all this reverence around them, some of it built up for decades, and I end up thinking, "if I don't like this record, will that mean I'm a moron who can't understand it?" Take Miles Davis' Kind Of Blue for example. I was actually a bit scared to listen to it for the first time because I wasn't sure if I can actually *hear* it like I should because of how mythical it is. In this particular case I had a huge grin on my face by the end because I really got why it's so highly praised. However, there were some "best ever" albums that left me confused because I couldn't for the life of me figure out what all the fuss is about. I listen to those albums multiple times, to fully appreciate the craftsmanship and artistry behind them, and if I don't get it, well, then I just don't - not my cup of tea. I do turn to critics quite often these days because it's just impossible to figure out what to listen to without recommendations. As you say, there's just too much stuff getting released every day.
you seriously deserve more subscribers, best channel honestly
would you give it a '10'? :P
True!
I've been thinking about this a lot. I've been eagerly awaiting a new Fiona Apple album since The Idler Wheel, so I woke up early on Friday and listened to the record. Since most reviews were released Friday also, I was lucky enough to listen to the album before all this praise was heaped on the record. I did really think it was astounding when I first listened to it, and I continue to find it more astounding the more I listen to it, so I agree with the reviews. I've found it more captivating than almost any album in the past five years. But, what if I read the reviews before I listened to the record? Would I be let down? There's a strong possibility of that. Inflated expectations can really effect my enjoyment of a record. I could see many people reading the reviews, who are maybe only casually familiar with Fiona Apple, saying "Yeah it's good but why all the hyperbole?"
you bring up great points. It is inevitable that larger publications/bigger voices in the community will influence the medium in many smaller specific ways and as a whole too, especially how we talk about the art. But i believe at the end of the day we all still need to have our own critical hats on and just trust our gut and our own ear on what we like and how much we like it.
I didn’t even hear of the perfect score yet when I first listened to it so I approached it like I would any new album but I feel like if I had heard about the perfect score I would have definitely thought and approached the album differently just by default. I personally love the album and it took me a couple listens to really love it as much as I do now
The real problem is the expectations that you have before even listening to the album. I think you’ve described it perfectly: you think you like it or even convince yourself that you like it just because it got an imaginary number 10 from some random person who happened to love the record. I myself was very hyped to listen to Fetch the Bolt Cutters, similar to Fear Inoculum last year (although for different reasons). I have to say that I liked it, and I still think it’s the best album this year, but it’s nowhere near 10/10. And the reason is simple, it’s impossible for me to say an album is “perfect” or “all time favourite” without spending a long time with it. We’re talking maybe several years. And that’s very often ignored in the music reviewing community. Why not rereview the album a year or two after it dropped, to truly judge its quality after the hype dies? It’s probably not profitable, but it’s the only way to truly know if an album is your favourite, 10/10. I guess decade end lists do something like that, although it’s tough to compare an album that dropped in October 2019 to a 2010 release. TLDR: critics really do impact people (or at least me), but in the end personal opinion (preferably after some time is spent with an album) is worth much more than a “professional” review.
Great choice with de-loused in a commatorium for the listening party. Love that album so much
I am thrilled you made this as I feel the same way about thinking of music of “right” and “wrong”. As always, thank you oliver
I've got a lot to throw into this discussion. They might be long, but I hope they're helpful.
Back in 2015 I didn't know hardly any classic music, so I got the Rolling Stone best ever album list, started at the top, and went from there. It meant there were top 20 albums like Sgt. Peppers and Pet Sounds that made me immediately go "yup, this is the best" and it meant there were others like Astral Weeks and Blood on the Tracks that left me scratching my head for years. I've since come around on Astral Weeks, but others like Exile on the Mainstream I just got think are as good as others say. So in this process I had a sense of "these are the best albums ever" but I didn't have a framework for why such things were considered masterpieces and other things not. But a list like this was really a huge gift. I got to discover Joni Mitchell, Steely Dan, Arcade Fire, Arctic Monkeys etc without any preconceived ideas. They hype train that (apparently) was a big part of that first Arctic Monkeys record (or The Strokes's Is This It) wasn't even on my radar.
On the flip side, I get the pressure to conform. Rolling Stone (one of my favorite music review sites) loved the new Angel Olsen last year and I was neutral on it. They also really liked the new Green Day and I hated it thoroughly. But I unabashedly love the Killers's Battleborn and most people don't. But the pressure is real. It took a while for me to like TPAB over GKMC or even Section 80 (I love that record).
As for the new Fiona Apple record, it's great. I heard the first few songs before even hearing about the perfect reviews (also, i hope we can all agree that there should have been some 10/10 since 2010, right?). I was already ranting and raving about it before the end of "Shamieka," seriously, already tasting the once in a long while greatness of it. Yes, the hype around this might make people skeptical, but more people will hear it because of that.
A perfect score should exist. In 2018 I saw 300 movies. Three ("Won't You Be My Neighbor," "Sipderman: Into the Spiderverse" and "Roma") I gave a perfect 10/10 to. I like to think that means something. At the very least, high scores is a way to start thinking about the canon forming every day. What are we going to remember? What are actually the best albums from a given year? It's hard for more than 5 or 10 to stand the test of time, so in all things, we have to be thinking out which those are (I bet if 10 people comment their 2019 list not of top albums but of the ones that will last or be most important, there will be overlap, even just a year later).
So there are my thoughts, long for UA-cam but you asked a deep and important question. Canonization matters, and critics of all shapes and sizes play a big role in that.
Why should canonization matter? Why should certain artists be held up more than others? What type of art you respond to is a personal thing. Why should you feel you have to make yourself like something because it's praised by critics?
@@erlineandrews Yeah, that's not what I'm saying. You should like what you like. You should assert the critical value of things that deserve it, and sometimes they'll overlap. And it's totally arguable whether or not canonization should matter (many would say it shouldn't), but right now it's pretty hard to argue that it doesn't matter. What type of art you respond to can be a personal thing, but critical discourse goes beyond that. I don't like Pink Floyd at all, but I'm not going to dare to say they weren't important or whatever. I'm just going to not listen to them.
Man just killed Fantano’s entire career
Good.
at least Fantano explains in great detail what to expect
@@MarkQuick0411 Don't mention Fantano and the word 'great' in the same sentence.
B Anfield To be fair to Fantano though, I wouldn’t be listening to nearly as much music as I am now, if it wasn’t for his reviews.
Fantano is different from Pitchfork.
The value of a reviewer is the bond they're able to make with their viewers, as a viewer of fantano I know what to expect in an Anthony review and see how it corresponds to me for example he loves more crisp/clean or overproduced albums while I love something a little bit more raw so if Fantano actually likes a fucking raw sounding album it's pretty much album of the fucking decade but with Pitchfork, you literally get different critics for different records which kinda breaks that trust making pitchfork a less reliable critic medium.
Jesus christ, the camera quality jumped straight out
Fr I was just about to comment this😭
I think everything you said after 3 min mark resonated with me so massively I feel like you understand me on a personal level
This is a brilliant video Deep Cuts. Added to favorites.
I was lucky to have listened to the whole album before reading a single review. It’s inventiveness blew me away and I wasn’t surprised by all the great reviews (wasn’t a huge fan of her music prior to this album). Still, numerical scores scores for music don’t make sense. Even using words to describe music will always fall short of the real thing. The art exists. That’s all that matters.
It should be said that quite a few people listened to the album prior to the 10 and it was even more universally loved at the time. A lot of people on music forums were live reacting to it and praising it...then the 10 came and so did the trolls hurling personal attacks at Fiona haha. Strange because she's not even public enough to have anything to hate. I get thinking it is overrated but I have seen some nasty things said about her that made me very sad
I was definitely swayed by the review, my first listen was affected by this, i feel like i just rushed through it, but the album has definitely grown on me after going trough it various times, as you say, its a very layered album, and you cant expect to appreciate it (or even hate it!) right away.
This is the first video I see of your channel and I'm aready a fan. I totally agree with you views here. I listened to the album before reading any review. Although I knew that there was hype surrounding it. And I agree with the fact that it was weird that hours after it came out, people were already giving it scores and having definitive opinions about it, and as your video points out, slashing Pitchfork's and other critics' reviews just because they didn't agree. And I too think that it, sadly, steers away the attention of the music itself, that in this case, is very very interesting and detailed. Great video. 👌🏻
Rarely do I read reviews before an album that I listen to in whole, whether newly released or from decades ago. All of my favorite albums, for the time it is on, I get lost in, and think, “this is the best thing I’ve ever heard (or best artist- band). Music that doesn’t do that to me whilst I listen to it, I don’t repeat frequently. The best music for me is the music that elicits a response I want to repeat. I’ve listened to Fetch.... on repeat for hours the last 2 days. It’s been ages since that has happened on a new release, still the 10 from pitchfork is a surprise. This one was not a grower and I found its immediacy one of its greatest strengths. Something about it makes it a perfect companion piece for our current lockdown/ meltdown.
Yes... it helped me stay sane. My body was on lockdown but my heart could break out. I actually later did listen to out at night while walking and it got me started running... skipping whatever those beats are all over sometimes! ♥️🦋🖤
Agreed, I feel like a vast majority of musical fandom is more focused on numbers and „ALBUM OF THE YEAR” titles rather than on actual music. Instead of deconstructing an album people just fall into a hype train and mindlessly repeat empty phrases like „perfect album 10/10”. It annoys me the most when I listen to an album with low ratings, like Death Grips’ Fashion Week, and i feel guilty for liking it. BTW i really appreciate that you don’t include numeral scores in your reviews
I don't get the drama around this, there wasn't that much a drama with Kanye's 10... Anyway, people nowadays care too damn much about scores and often forget about the actual criticism of the album. Also, I don't get this thing of hating on critics just because they have a personal opinion or an editorial opinion, they're just doing their jobs and tbh, criticism is actually damn hard and essential for any artistic landscape. I appreciate good criticism with or without a score like Greg Tate's, Hua Hsu's or Simon Reynolds'.
Two main things imho:
1) people have more free time because of the plague and more people are on the internet compared to 2010
2) the record is a difficult one to get into if you aren’t already a fan of fiona apples or a fan of this type of music in general, therefore giving it a perfect score doesn’t make sense for more people compared to mbdtf.
Also a third reason could be the political shitstorm that is caused by this, I’ve personally seen a lot of conservatives or shitposters shit on the album just because they want to troll the perceived “entitled, liberal and pretentious” target audience who seem to love this album so much.
Personally this lp isn’t my cup of tea, the pop roots, tom waits inspiration and simple piano melodies all combined together sound decent but not exactly trailblazing.
Kind of boring actually.
But that doesn’t matter, I’m not gonna shit on people who like the album just because I don’t want want to listen to it any more than three times.
My thought upon and after listening to this album is that this is nearly perfect and that’s before seeing any reviews at all. I’m glad I listening it before those reviews so that it wouldn’t affect my thoughts subconsciously. Anyway I love this conversation.
whats interesting is this aspect of listening to music is so true ,but never talked about.I myself have been someone who goes to record reviews to find new albums and i have found great new bands,your channel included.Really great point!
Hype can really put me off when it comes to listening to an album. I think, "I'll wait till the fervor dies down, then I'll listen." But then the impetus passes, too, and I might forget about the record for months or even years. I did this with Kendrick Lamar's last album, DAMN. It wasn't till just a couple months ago that I finally sat down and pressed play on it -- nearly 3 years after it was released. I've done it with lots of other records as well.
If I'm already a fan of the artist, such as with Kendrick, it is worse than if the hype surrounds a band/artist I'm indifferent towards or completely unaware of. If I don't have much of an opinion beforehand about them, I'll usually hop on that in a reasonable timeframe. But when I'm already inclined in favor of the artist, like I am with Fiona Apple? Well, truthfully, I'm already putting it off. So much else to listen to without prejudgment. For instance, today I listened to Pulp's His 'n' Hers for the first time. A classic, I know, but that status is less intimidating than the uproar and furor of something hyped up into the stratosphere.
Long story short: I'll listen to Fetch the Bolt Cutters -- at some point....
The other thing to discuss here is my disappointment when an album I like a lot gets an average score by a reviewer I respect (e.g. theneedledrop), which sometimes creeps into a negative reevaluation of the album. That's when you really know a reviewer is impacting your tastes...
Thank you very much Oliver, this summurizes pretty well my thoughts on this topic !
I really feel that this 10 or very high critical acclaim in general changes the way I approach a record. I know that I fall into the bias of trying harder (maybe too hard) when other people see something in a record than I personnaly don't (or not to the same extent).
And I just do not understand how records like this one can be so immediate to people as we could read so much perfect "user" reviews the day of the release... It is like many peoole has pressure to form an opinion quickly, as not having formed your opinion yet could be deemed as not seeing the obvious beauty of a record.
Honestly I still do not really know how I feel on this one after 4-5 listens, it is like I am intimidated by art when it gets so much praise by the online communities I'm part of.
The pitchfork review just made me happy for her but I didn’t care bc I was waiting for the record release for a long time. I think its some of her best work. She deserves the ten. Idk why they don’t give it out to more artists.
it was just funny to me that pitchfork posted their review the same day the record came out. perhaps they had early access to the record.
Ardavon N yeah. I don’t really care for review scores, but I’m not the biggest fan of early reviews… perhaps because it seems lazy or forced in a sense?
or, I don’t think i’m affected by reviews, but maybe that shows that I am in some way
Personally, I didn't like the record. I appreciate your point about feeling guilty due to this "masterpiece" perception. Overall, I believe I'm confident in my own opinion and if I don't like an acclaimed album so what. However, the sheer amount of circle jerk like praise I saw had a little voice telling me I'm wrong. I've heard the album 5 times now so it doesn't bother me anymore, but it definitely impacted me at first.
Interesting video! I feel like I had a different experience with that Pitchfork review because I understood where the individual critic (Jenn Pelly) was coming from, that I knew about her fascination with DIY music (e.g. she wrote a book about the Raincoats) and her enthusiasm for feminist statements by artists like Bikini Kill. So the expectations that created were more specific than 'perfection' - I guess I expected an extremely good realisation of a particular vision, which wouldn't necessarily have universal or even broad appeal. Which is what I got - and luckily, I love the album!
This leads into a bigger point, that I feel like it's healthier and more rewarding as a music listener to have relationships with individual critics than publications. Which is why I love channels like yours!
You make amazing and interesting videos ! So good 😇
I completely relate with what you said about feeling “wrong” when you don’t like a highly praised album. I for one don’t like the Fiona Apple album, and I feel a sort of guilt or that I’m missing out on it (even tho I know haven’t). There is for sure a sort of pressure that the 10/10 gives the listener, and if you don’t agree with it, your opinion doesn’t matter.
I feel Pitchfork's 10 is actually coming off negative as people whose opinions are basically liking everything p4k hates are tearing this album as "samey" (have these people ever listened to Apple's other records? They're basically the same if you only take instrumentation and style as parameters) or any other kind of vague meaningless labels (like that trite reviewer cliché of calling stuff "not fun") only to have something to negative say, just like you said about bandwagons. I don't see anyone bitching about the numerous 10s other publications gave this album, just Pitch in particular.
Amusing.
(My opinion on the album is, by the way, it is good as fuck; too good to put in decimal numbers, in fact. Every song there kicks the shit out of me, my least fav being Drumset for being kind of redundant, but good nonetheless. It doesn't sound outlandishly new or unthinkable, even for Fiona, which would be a fair criticism if I saw anyone saying something along those lines, but pretty unique and fucking well-written and performed, like any Fiona album. I also like the emancipatory messages and rough production in some places, giving it a homemade sort of quality which fit this moment of lockdown perfectly, for sure. It'll definitely inspire me when we get out of this situation.)
Holy shit I ended up writing way more than I intended lmao
Also - glad you're talking about that weird guilt of not liking critically lauded albums! For me that's In the Aeroplane Over the Sea - I enjoy the album but mostly just listen to a few songs from it and it has not 'changed my life' whatsoever
That album sucks, so I don't blame you.
I agree that you shouldn’t call something perfect without multiple listens, but after my first listen, I couldn’t help but feel that this was a very special album.
I personally find this new album overwhelming and didn’t like it (except for two songs), It does sound like her last album but at least the idler was subtle and enjoyable.
Personally all I want to know about a new record whether it's bad, mediocre, good or amazing. One word reviews. Let me decide what I think of it uninfluenced. Obviously, numerical scores carry their baggage, but so do word reviews in my opinion. I don't care for anyone's descriptions of a record and how great or bad it is. It's all a bit presumptuous to me. Hailing a piece of art should be done retrospectively.
Totally agree with the sentiment. I really love your videos, always really well formulated and thought out video!
im excited for that Sonic Youth guide. i've had Daydream Nation on repeat recently.
When I heard Fiona Apple had a new album releasing I wanted to like it... But I don't. I like noise albums, but this was not anything palatable, clever lyrics aside. I don't read reviews until after hearing an album. Then I'll read to find more technical understanding or thoughtful comparisons. I first trust word of mouth from friends for new albums or venture on my own. Rarely have I been swayed by a critic I don't personally know.
I wouldn't love MBDTF if it wasn't as much for the 10. I'll tell you why: There's a feeling that Kanye wanted to create with that record that it's bigger than just an album, you can feel it in the way the album flows and the Gil Scott Heron poem at the end. It's meant to be this huge reflection of culture, and also a force large enough to move culture.
That perfect 10 from Pitchfork, for me, was enough proof of that movement for me to really sink into MBDTF and fucking love it. That poem's inclusion at the end could be seen as tacky, but because of the atmosphere surrounding that record, I feel extremely moved every time I hear it.
it seems you are looking for cohesion in your albums. A lot the tracks though themselves just miss the mark and haven't aged well.
Definitely agree with a lot of what you say and I feel this way about film discourse as well.
Critics and reviews are good at directing people's attention to things they might benefit from checking out, but I often feel like discussions around pieces of art (at least online) are too focused on trying to come to a consensus on whether something is good or not and not focused enough on what people are actually getting out of it.
Great vid. When I saw the 10, I knew it was going to wreck my ability to listen to this with a clear mind for a long time.
I don't consider any album to be a 10, there are albums which come close such as Lift Yr. Skinny Fists Like Antennas to Heaven!, ▣世界から解放され▣ (you can fight me on that one) and the uncut version of hana sumai's depressed rock guitar in d, but no album I've heard is completely without flaw for me or I will always be super into, for instance there have been listens of Lift Yr. Skinny Fists' that do reach that incredible level for me to possibly consider it a 10, but other times it has lost my attention a bit at points. A personal thing for me is that when I start to consider an album close to perfect, my brain often seems to think it wants to look really hard to find fault in it which can hamper my enjoyment of it. Also this might be partially due to me not generally being a very sentimental person, I don't generally react extremely negatively to music either.
But that's a point slightly different to the main issue in the video, relating to what I would personally consider to be a perfect album (that's probably never going to happen) rather than critical consenus. Though I certainly will be affected to some extent, as everyone is, by critical consenus, I try not to let it affect me. Quite often I listen to some canonized masterpiece, and think it's good but far from the world changing incredible experience that it's made out to be. The examples given in this video My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy and Kid A, for example, I would rate somewhere in the 7/10 range (I had not yet heard Fetch the Bolt Cutters when I first wrote this comment but that *breaks the trend* ... because I actually dislike it) I find these two albums to have a lot of great elements but to have definite flaws (especially MBDTF) and to not strongly resonate with me as they seem to do a lot of people. but when I do discover something which I find to be a masterpiece, it won't neccesarily be one that's always heralded as such. Only one of the three I listed earlier is generally viewed as such, one of the others has quite a mixed reception, with quite a lot of negative reception (side note - for me an album received like this can sometimes make me more willing to listen than something generally lauded because I become curious about how I'll feel. Also because something like that album which gains this kind of reception due to being very weird tends to be right up my alley) and the other is rather obscure.
This can happen on the other extreme, as well. Would Chance the Rapper's The Big Day get so much hate if theneedledrop didn't give it a 0? I wonder... The biggest effect these kinds of reviews and general negative reception have for me is making me avoid it entirely, but on the subject of Fantano's 0's I thought The Big Day was decent, if a bit of a mixed bag and I actually like Speedin' Bullet 2 Heaven quite a bit and return to it every now and again. I haven't heard Father of All Motherfuckers yet but I do have plans to listen to it eventually just to see whether I think it is as bad as he says, when otherwise I probably wouldn't care about it all, which is why I intially listened to Speedin' Bullet 2 Heaven and The Big Day and I think a lot of people are in similar boat there as the opposite to the "is it as good as everyone says?" extreme postive reception can have. And why not at this point, I don't consider any of Fantano's 10's to be masterpieces either, but To Be Kind is the closest one and I think it's great (but The Seer is better). The others fall into the "good, but not anywhere near THAT good" category I mentioned earlier. Except for To Pimp a Butterfly which I didn't listen to in full because I wasn't liking it.
Oh yeah, I do feel a little bit of that "I must come back and re-evaluate because everyone says this is a masterpiece" when without that laudatory reception I wouldn't care to do so with TPAB but the fact that I still haven't at this point after only trying to listen to it once quite a while ago maybe is a sign that I'm not *hugely* affected by this.
Listen to her previous album Idler Wheel or When the Pawn. They are literally better than last album
the experience of the record is usually ruined by such kind of reviews as we are not able to express our views on an album honestly either u disagree with the opinion to make urself look cool infront of other music lovers eye's or u agree with the opinion and u are just like the rest of the world .There is no middle ground as ur opinion about an album is so biased because of the insect of the album rating that is inside ur head and the fear of being judged. U might never be able to experience the album on ur own and decided for urself . I don't thing that a thing artist want us to do .
But I can't fully disagree with the act of reviewing an album . as it has helped me a lot of times to find good album which I might not have been able to find otherwise . I think review should be done in such a way that it shows that an album is good whether it's a masterpiece or a life changing experience should be in our hands.
Great video. I literally experience second hand anxiety from this phenomenon and my brain has a crisis determining whether I actually like the record or not, torn between an artificial number's objectivity and an actual emotional response. Same happened with Fiona Apple, upon first listen I thoroughly enjoyed the first half but found the album to grow away from my own take on it: self actualisation and finding your voice. I dont necessarily agree with the fact that you have to grow louder and more headstrong to become actualised and this skewed my enjoyment of how I perceived the record. But I plan on listening again with these initial thoughts in mind to piece the records puzzle together as unswayed by bias as possible.
I usually don’t comment but this is an amazing analysis of critics and albums of high acclaim. Immediately subscribed!