timbo slice I said the same, but after they anounced that Quake Champions will be PC only i have at least minimum Hopes. The biggest Question is, can ID step up and reach the old Quality or killed Bethesda everything.
I'll tell you a story. I'm 21 years old now and I started playing quake abut 2 years ago. My brother had recently picked it up and I thought 'hey I may as well'. I remembered playing a bit of quake 3 a while ago when I got my first pc and even then before that when my older brothers were introduced to it by a friend at a land party. It was the first First Person shooter game I had really ever played. I by the very definition got rekt by them when I was trying it out. They were quite shit as well but I was about 10 at the time so it's fine for that to happen. All the bright colours from all these amazing weapons. Gothic themes and fast paces fluid movement. I enjoyed it so much. I couldn't really think for myself or have much in the way of understanding how good of a game it actually was, I just knew I liked it, everything it had to offer. I didn't know how to strafe jump but I saw other people jumping around so whatever. I hijacked anyone's pc to play because I needed to play as much as possible. Eventually everyone got bored of quake and started playing diablo 2, and I didn't see quake again. After that lan and a few years later when I got my own pc one of the first games I installed was quake 3 arenas. We didn't have internet, so I couldn't play online. I didn't even know that's what it was meant for. I fired it up with bots and started working my way through the levels. I can win, bring it on, hurt me plenty, hardcore and nightmare... Wow, Xaero was hard... I can tell you now I never managed to beat him. I had consumed quake to the extent that it allowed me and I got bored. With no one else to play with and completely ignorant to the online gaming community and e-sports itself. I knew who fatality was, though. My brother had one of his motherboards, though I didn't even know he played quake. Anyways that brings me to when I finally found out about quake live. I thought 'hey quake online, lets try it out'. Its a small community where I live and people mostly played clan arena so I joined it. wow... I can't tell you how long I spent looking at other people play while I waited for the round to end and for me to finally get back in there. I was infuriated at how these people were so good. If one of them pulled out the lightning gun in a open space I needed to back off else I'd die. I just couldn't compete with their aim. The constant rails from these pros, all I could do is bring out the nade launcher and hold a front for me team while we tried to win. I saw someone make the bridge to rail circle jump on Campgrounds and I thought... 'interesting glitch'. Then I saw everyone else do the same damn thing. I fired up a local game and I spent hours practicing that jump. I just couldn't do it. I watched videos and tried again. during loading times for the round to begin I'd try the jump then hide away somewhere. After a few weeks I finally started to get it. The next step was making sure I could get it 100% of the time. Then someone told me I wasn't strafe jumping right. That I should practice the strafe jumping map. I honestly didn't think strafe jumping could be harder than that circle jump. But because of the deeper understanding of the games mechanics from practicing the circle jump it was a bit easier, but no less painful to get down. I kept at it. playing. eventually getting a proper mouse with a 'perfect sensor' and good mouse pad. I started to experiment with my cfg. I found out most pros used acceleration so I started tweaking it. disabled damage numbers for my lg. found a good crosshair for it. Then I saw someone get the bridge to rail backward... I honestly didn't know that was even possible. It makes sense now, knowing quakes full range of motion. I started to get good in clan arena. I could out do people with the lg, sometimes my score would be around the top. I think once it was even at the top. Then someone told me about dueling and how that's where the actually competitive scene is. I started a duel vs this guy I destroyed in clan arena, and guess what happened. He destroyed me. I then dueled an equal in clan arena and he annihilated me 20 to -2. I thought I was reaching the top of the skill ceiling in quake but the honest truth is I hadn't even come close. The next day I tried to duel someone who was actually good. He's one of those guys that could go pro if he played more and didn't already have a life. People say that but in this case its true. I honest to god pro. The kind of guy who needs to duel the best of the best to have an even match. That first duel on ztn(bloodrun) ended with a score of 62 to -2. he killed me on average of once every 10 seconds. His constant rails. this overwhelming feeling of helplessness far worse than the first clan arena match I had more than a year ago. He didn't let me do anything. I'd get a weapon then die. It was one of the worst feelings I've had. since then I've dueled him well over 100 times and many more pros just as good as him many more times. I've climbed a short ladder leading nowhere and haven't managed to beat one of them. but I'll tell you this. that first guy that I dueled that raped me but I dominated him in ca normally. Well I'll win every game vs him without dying. Its not bragging its just that he's too easy to read. He doesn't try to prevent me from taking control of the map. He doesn't punish me where he should and as a result I there isn't anything he can do. vs the pros I now end up with a score of about a 2 to 1 ratio. I've even had the lead every now and then. It's much better than the original 60 to -2. I'm starting to understand that quakes skill level isn't in landing shots. It's predicting and outsmarting your opponent. The shots is a requirement, the perfect movement is required, the circle jumps is something that must just happen every time or else you'll lose, if you don't have perfect timing of mega you'll lose, if you can't see that you must actually leave red alone and run to mega to contest it or else your opponent will get it for free then work your way back to red achieving two things. One disrupting his timing of the item, and two actually preventing him from getting any stack making him a threat on the map you'll lose.
I´ve been a Quake admirer for years, followed the birth and eventual death of arena type e-sports shooters. I knew how hard the game was, so I never got into it, but it was great as visual spectacles go. Then QL came out. I made an account. Set up the keys. Went in and did the obligatory vs AI matchup, which was supposed to tell you your rank for better matchmaking. After that, jumped into the server. First game, FFA, 1 kill.... 50 deaths. Mind you, I had about 3000+h FPS experience by then, in slower games, sure. I gave QL a few more tries, eventually got to 0:3 KDR in a round, but I dropped. The game just felt like work. It was hard, exhausting, harsh and unrewarding environment, dominated by the veterans of the scene. That being said, I would never want QL to be anything different. That also means Quake will never be fun for casual chaps who dont spend 50h a week in a videogame. Which is depressing, because Quake represents something very special. I guess very reliable matchmaking could turn it around, but Quake Live proved that whatever matchmaking system should be used, it should be developed at some fucking brain trust, funded by Darpa and done by captured and enslaved talent from the lead AI developers in the world...
Word, 9 overtimes one just one map. And for the video, Thorin's speaking the truth. But Quake could bring in "casuals" without seeping out the essence of Quake. I just want a DM game with a player base large enough to not have to search for pickups on iirc/discord to get a decent match.
I can say it definitely doesn't take that long. While Quake 3 was first fps game i ever played, i never played it much, and later i started playing quake live and got straight into tier 3 in ffa. I don't know how much it matters but i was playing on crt at 85hz(later 120hz) and that was before high hz lcd screens became popular.
Very old comment to reply to, but Capture The Flag with a group of friends is soooooo good! That's mainly how I have played arena shooters. Back then it was easy to get 10+ people to connect via LAN and hang out for a weekend, so perhaps that's not as easy to get going these days.
Veteran Quake Player here (not very good though xD) About 14:09, in order to make high skill ceiling videogames viable for the average gamer, you only need a good matchmaking system that won't match up those players with people that are obviously better. Is that simple. DOTA 2 and LoL have also very steep learning curves and are hard to master and still have plenty of low skilled players having fun with them. I don't know if a new Quake game might become popular or not but I know for a fact that if the skill ceiling is very high (as high as other Quake Games), it would not be a detrimental factor on it's popularity as long as the matchmaking system is decent. There are other factors that need to be tanken care off, like the expectator experience on fast paced team based fps games (which is literally SHIT in all games I've seen, like Quake TDM, Wolfenstein, Overwatch, etc). Following a fast paced/team based fps game is a nightmare for the average expectator. It is just not an enjoyable experience. On the contrary, focusing on one pro player is easy to follow but does not make any sense on team based games, obviously. That's why Quake duels where so popular back in the days and even non Quake players could enjoy it.
I think your matchmaking thing is the big problem. Addressing his sports example, your not playing against pro tennis players at all times. Or at all really. You generally play against people around your skill level. If your new you play against new players. It's like that for many popular games as well. I don't play CS against Olofmeister, I play against other bad players :D If a few new players got together and played Quake (as someone who's watched some but never played it) it seems like it would be fun for them to play against each other. But you also need a decent sized playerbase for matchmaking to work as intended. I assume the amount of people playing Quake is fairly small compared to other games, and/or it isn't drawing in new players. If this is true, this also helps cause what he was talking about, where the new player is stomped into the ground during their first few matches. If a playerbase is small, it is (or at least seem to be) likely that the average player is much better at the game than the avg. player of a more popular game. They've been playing for longer and been more devoted to the game. Those people are much more passionate about Quake as a game than random kids playing CoD (for example). They have stuck with it for long enough to get good. If there aren't enough low skill/new players to match the new player against they will be forced to play against people who are much better than they are, or not get into a game at all. New players are thrown into the deep end, and this generally isn't good for player retention.
No Aim No Gain Exacly that is what I have been saying. The MOBA genre is hardcore as fuck for new players, and yet LoL is the most popular game on the planet. To say that Quake can't be popular because it has a high skill ceiling is ridiculous. Also, Quake has one big advantage over other games, it is easy to just pick up and play. The average FFA match lasts what? 4-5 minutes the most? That is a FAR CRY from the 40 minutes or so that LOL matches last. Also FFA has the advantage of not putting any burden of responsibility on the player, he/she is up for himself, and doesn't need to worry about his team mates yelling at him when they lose. And lastly, Quake is very easy to learn. It is an incredibly easy game for a newbie to understand and is a very fun game to play casually. The ONLY issue I see is the whole "new players will get crushed by veterans" thing which can be easily solved by the matchmaking system you brought up and that exists on every fucking game nowadays. C'mon ID, it's not that hard
Quake champions was my first quake and I love it so much. Love spending 3 hours to get one bridge to rail strafe jump. My friends on steam all quit within an hour
I guess he isn't, or he would create content for it. Overwatch is created from the ground up to be a casual, fun experience, not hardcore competition. Much like other Blizzard games like Hearthstone (!) and Heroes of the Storm it has a competitive scene. Overwatch scales very good with skill and can create intense matches, but it is just not comparable to a game made on a competitive basis.
It's just a little too new to have analysis for it, he can't really be a historian and say: 2 weeks ago this team was dominant and was carried by this guy. Plus patches come so rapidly almost every week and major ones every 3 months. So you should definitely wait for a meta to settle down and get some history behind these teams to do proper analysis.
" Overwatch is created from the ground up to be a casual, fun experience, not hardcore competition" You could replace Overwatch with LoL and it would still hold true so what now ?
Old school shooters are better, I do have bias cause I'm older but if I ignore that the faster paced game is generally better from a spectator sport. It's just more exciting. I would adore a change to older FPS standards, the most fun I've had in years in traditional DM, TDM was on Tribes/Tribes Ascend. Again there is bias to my opinion that can't be denied.
I'm not really older and I agree with you. Old games are better and I have no "nostalgia" or "bias" because I played newer and older games at the same time.
Not to mention 1v1 is inherently more interesting to watch because you never miss anything. There's no chance of spectating the larger group of players only to have the lurker on the other side of the map end up getting a 3k for example. In cs it's not that big of a deal because of the game's pacing but part of the problem with games like OW is that it can be really difficult to capture all the action in a way that's interesting for the spectators.
The netcode comparison isn't really fair because HL and Quake have very different style of hitboxes. Quake uses basically 2 squares to create their hitbox which makes "regging" shots alot easier because there is less information that needs to be relayed to make the calculations. HL has always used a more precise hitbox setup where it is possible to miss through legs and just the overall structure is more complicated to relay that information.
I really feel for quake and other hardcore games. Id love to get more into a game such as quake but i know its gonna be lonely, noone of my friends has it in them to actually sit down and get slaughtered for hours against better players. Like even now when i play cs:go with my friends, we just fuck around really and shoot stuff. We dont actively try to improve at the game. Its fun and all but sometimes abit unsatisfying.
TF2 might be more popular as a casual game but it really has a high skill ceiling compared to games like Overwatch. I also think TF2 is the only popular game that has the most resemblance to Quake (TF was born as a mod for Quake after all, and its classes were based around the Quake weapons) I remember someone once saying that OW's skill ceiling is as high as a house, TF2's skill ceiling is as high as a cathedral, and Quake is a skyscrapper.
I just get frustrated when i play cs:go, i just hate it when weapons don't hit where i aim, while in quake its not so annoying when im doing bad. I rather spend hours practicing strafejumps than how different weapons recoil. I never understood why tf gets compared to quake, its far from it.
Late comment... The mod you're looking for at 21:40 is Navy Seals for Quake, that is what Gooseman made before he joined the A-Team and helped with Action Quake 2. Regarding Quake and eSports tho, for me it's fine that Quake is a niche. All I wish for Quake/Clone is that it has a large enough following to merit a duel lan/tournament circuit (12/year would be a dream come true). Even if you don't play Quake, 1v1 is a great spectator sport. Every major Quake event (the few that are left) has more viewers on Twitch, than we've had players the past 10 years. They also get a lot of positive feedback, because even if you don't understand all the mechanics of the game, everyone can grasp the basic concept. Also it's clean, stripped from all the arcade features of modern games, just core gameplay. I tried watching a top-tier Overwatch match, and yeah Overwatch is fun to play, but it's really bad for spectating. The main issue I have with it, is that it's really hard to see what is going on. It's not that I can't process the information, it's more that there is so much unnecessary gimmick shown on the screen, that I can't even see what cool stuff the player might be doing. This is better when spectating ingame, but it's hell on livestreams. I get what you are saying about casual players and the 80%, but maybe Quake don't need the 80% ingame, we just need them as competitive viewers. Like every real sport, many people watch, very few play. But that sounds more like a job for an event organizer than a game developer :)
The gist is: id Software games are like arsty music and LoL-like games are like "commodity music".Great analogy, compelling arguments, fam. Subscribed.
Agree to 100% Skill level to high. I play 99% duel. Im bad at it. Max Elo was 1450. But: Its pure Its fast as hell Its tactics Its reading other minds And if i lose to a 2000 elo guy, im more fascinated with what kind of ease he crushed me, instead of being scared. I mean in which game you can compete with players which are at the top. You cannot play agains NBA players, but in QL you sometimes can. And its funny :D
The thing is, and what I realize is going to be the downfall/death on arrival of Quake Champions, is the fact that no one my age plays Quake. I'm fifteen, and kids my age really just don't know what Quake is. They had played Doom and knew what it was, so when Doom 4 came out it was successful to my age group. Not because it was an arena shooter, but because it was familiar. Kids my age haven't even heard of Quake, so it's going to launch without any of my generation to play it and try to get good. Even if they had heard of it, you're right, the competitive aspect down to the lowest levels of Quake can never truly be enjoyed by a casual player. Quake Champions is going to launch and the way they're marketing it, plus the issues I just talked about, are going to kill it faster than it can recover.
_sick 0 1 year later, Quake Champions gameplay has improved immensely and on Steamcharts QC looks to have about 1000 ish concurrent players per day. That's dismal compared to Overwatch and CS GO, but not dismal enough to say it's dead yet. I don't think something as extreme as what you're suggesting will come to pass, but your points are all valid. We'll just have to wait and see how Bethesda and id software can promote their new esport once it officially releases.
your views are so fit in my opinion man. also loved when u mentioned led zep, and compared it to tool. that was the exact name that was on my mind. great videos great commentaries!
Well it might never have been the number 1 *in player count* for obvious reasons. However, quake players are known to be like the tier-0 of FPS gaming; *put even Quake non-pros in any easier game such as CS and they will be miles ahead of the other players.* It is amusing to watch "quake pros", or "Team Fortress Classic players", or "older game veterans" simply jump into a new game and automatically compete with the pros there or completely destroy their opponents within minutes of adjustment because their base skill and knowledge is just that high. Quake has not added any accessibility and maintained the fact that pro players used to be around 2x better rather than only around 0.5x better than the vast majority of players. This means the vast majority will have the experience where even if they try their best they won't be able to kill a better player unless they have about a 1-5% stroke of luck. Unfortunately many RTS with actual balance are seeing the results of this: Dawn of War 3, any new and balanced RTS, will see literally a 1% of players who are way better at the top, and target that upper 5-10%, and people still don't like that "level of complexity" even though it has been dumbed down for them. They want to be able to compete at an easier game. In CS, this is probably somewhere around 40% chance in terms of a bad player killing a better player; they took out so many aspects to make it more accessible. Random accuracy (shots that can just 'hit' with no reason at all,*"gambling/instant gratification"), no movement allowed (basically just a stand still simulator), counter-strats /weapons gone, the reflex and shot is basically just CS and everyone can "point-and-click". With raw old-school mechanics and little to no focus on accessibility for "the other 90%" who are not at the top of the curve, it never overtook in community numbers as the 'casuals' in Quake are typically 'top tier' in any self-proclaimed e-sports title. Even older games with actual healthpoints where it's impossible to kill in one shot without a combo of attacks were never as popular as a dumbed down game that anyone can play. In comparison with Valve games, or self-proclaimed so called esports games, they are overly simplified and use esport scenes as a fake market for hype and attracting children.
Speaking of Overwatch, it's ridiculous how easy it is to beat pros there. The outcome of a match is so random that I've beaten many of the top players in Solo Queue (while they were playing with their teammates). It's the complete opposite of Quake where you can't accomplish anything as a newbie.
I agree, screw RNG games. I have put over 5k hours into CS:GO and the RNG and horrible netcode/hitboxes ruins it. "RNG in a skill based game" is a meme for a reason in that game. Can I add you on Steam bro?
I first started playing Quake Live when I was 11-12 in 2012 or 2013 when I had a shitty computer and I played with my laptop's trackpad. It was still fun as hell and this was when I first discovered online gaming. I still play and get my ass whooped by people who are old enough to be my parents and it's fun. I think arena shooters are the most skill-based FPS games ever because not only do you have to have really good aim and reflexes, but you need to practice item control, memorize spawns, memorize spawn times, predict where your enemy is at all times, practice movement like strafe jumping, learning shortcuts on every map, and knowing which weapons to use in certain situations. I'll never give up trying to be the best at Quake, Quake and many arena shooters deserve more recognition and it's sad that they're slowly going down. I will never stop playing such an amazing game, a game that you really need to give it your all in that match of clan arena, freezetag, duel, etc.
This video is spot on. I think ID should embrace quake's legacy and cultivate an allure around the game as a purist FPS for the most competitive players while promoting duel mode as a spectator esport. I love playing CSGO but I find it's not very engaging to watch a 5v5 match when the "camera" can only show one of the ten player's perspectives at any given time. Duel mode in quake however is some of the most engaging gamplay to watch in esports IMO. I think most esport games are like golf - it's enjoyable to the people who play, but it not that engaging for most people to watch on TV. Quake has the potential to be like UFC - very engaging to watch despite that fact that most people who do don't practice MMA. Quake arguably is the only true spectator esport and ID should really exploit this aspect of the game.
Just a "secret" tip for people looking for hardcore FPS. There is Unreal Tournament:ALpha(for the younger guys, it was THE game with quake 3 and CS 1.x back in the days) in making. Interesting thing is, they released alpha version and they are working on it WHILE recieving feedback from people playing it, therefore game already developed a lot since i first tried it in posivite way. It will probably never be as big as CSGO or LOL, but very interesting option for people looking for fast pure action.
that's my biggest concern. Quake is such a skilled game. As far as pure technical skill is concerned it's probably the most demanding shooter in that department. I could imagine being a csgo pro but being a quake pro seems impossible :D. The moves those guys pulled off.
Both Overwatch and Quake are great games and require skill for each. I understand that the best pro players in Quake have probably the best aim in the world up there with the best CS and UT players. But OW players team play needs to be amazing and aim and ult management and to be diverse etc xx
You need some skill for anything if you make it into a compo, even a pie-eating contest. But most games after quake are based around series of noobifications compared to quake. Never was that more true than with overwatch. These comparative noobifications can be easily recited, factually, case-by-case.
To be honest, when talking about the first online fps games, I have always thought that Starsiege: Tribes was the best suited for actual competetive gameplay. I remember back in the day when my old friends played in one of the best European Tribes clans, those matches were intensive as shit. Skiing to the enemy base In Raindance, killing yourself and dropping the flag mid-air to a teammate while the enemy was hunting the flag carrier. Good times.
TAKE A LOOK AT QWC THORIN the playoffs have been fucking INSANE !!!!!!! grand final tonight then maybe a great new WHO IS video - VOO ! Fuck its insane how people don't even look how good QC is to watch and the level of skill. At least watch some games from this weekend it sbeen so hype. People suck at games if they dont appreciate this game
This generation can't enjoy something like quake because they are used to short term, easy gained gratification. Most of us don't care about long term improvement, sadly. On top of that, people can't take loses, and have little dedication, which is needed to get better at a deep game. About a year ago I got into fighting games myself, I got my ass kicked for about a month, but now I love it and keep getting better. There is also the social aspect. Team games combine social team play together with easier gameplay, and so it is clear what games will be more popular. It's sad this is the way it is, but on the bright side, there will always be a highly dedicated player base in most difficult game genres. That is especially true in fighting games. A smaller player base also means less kids. I tried playing league a few times, and every time, chats were full of retards spamming "report report". I much rather play with a smaller player base that has no salty kids. So that is fine by me.
yeahhhh duuude all these dumb kids cant even pay attention and stuff maaaaan. Back in my day we didnt have all these short attention span call of battlefields and what not
I'm different from my current generation. I'm about to turn 15 and I love arena shooters even if I suck. I'd rather get destroyed in a match of Quake and learn than never play Quake.
The single-player of Quake was actually way better than you give credit for but agreed, Quake is basically the grand-father of all serious online multiplayer gaming. The mods were what really made Quake the game it was though - you could play Team Fortress or a ridiculous amount of other mods for Quake and have endless fun on public servers or get right into some serious competitive death-match / CTF / Team Fortress etc in your clan (QWTF is still the original and *BEST* team-fortress experience out there, coming from someone who has literally played every iteration of the "Team Fortress" mods for Quake's many versions and the Half-Life mods and full-blown stand-alone Team Fortress). People forget too that it was actually Quake's Team Fortress scene which really got behind CS in the early betas and made it incredibly popular with everyone playing online games. A die-hard group still played both but most of us realised that the original Wireplay Team-Fortress leagues we were playing in would probably never get big enough coverage and if pro-gaming was going to become a realistic possibility it would be from another game. Then when CS beta 4 came along a whole host of clans from QWTF started playing CS. Clans in the early UK scene like [SG] (Spice Girls), [EQ], FWD, [sas], [UKLA], [TA], [13] etc and the European clans like EYEballers and countless other European Counter-Strike clans were all comprised of oldskool QWTF players which instantly established a pretty competitive scene focused on aim and high-skill gameplay (and bunnyhopping, because CS used the same air-movement system Quake employed and we all found out you could bunnyhop VERY early on in the game's life) which made everything snow-ball from there. That is the reason CSGO even has a scene in the first place, rather than VALVe's involvement after they bought the rights from Cliffe and Goose. Without Quake's online mods we most likely wouldn't have competitive first-person shooters as an "esport" to this day though. Personally I really hope Quake Champions is a success - and from what I've played so far of it, it's already proving to be pretty popular with the old Quakers from back in the day. If the guys can establish a good competitive scene like we had back in the days of QWTF, Quake 3 Arena, CPMA pro-mode etc then the sky is the limit for this kind of esport in my eyes. Quake is a dueling game mainly and some of the duels I've seen so far in the Quake Champions tournament qualifiers for Quakecon have been nothing short of epic. I think depending how much support iD and Bethesda give the game will make or break the competitive scene - if they do it right then Quake Champions can easily rival and surpass a LOT of esports out there and establish itself as the number one competitive 1 vs 1 first-person shooter / dueling esport. Edit: I think the mod you were struggling to remember was actually called "Navy Seals" or "Seal Team" - I played it a bit but the following for it was practically dead compared to the amount of people just playing Quakeworld Team Fortress or straight death-match / TDM / CTF.
It's starting to be really funny how Thorin refuses to mention Call Of Duty in any positive way ... Just an FYI, originally Call of Duty was actually based on the Quake engine as well. And let's not forget that Call of Duty 4:Modern Warfare was actually a great shooter with a fairly high skillcap and had higher price pools than CS.
People laughed at me for having CoD4 lan tournament experience because they were looking at the newer CoDs. Honestly, some of the problems with CoD4 were Stopping Power, Juggernaut, and Nubetubes (I know there are more problems than that, but a fair lot of the tournaments I play have rules in which weapons and perks were banned), and it could've easily been where CS:GO sits now. You still needed mechanical skill, strategy, and teamwork in CoD4 by a fair lot. The game had more actually functional choke points than camping spots and positioning was key on the defensive end. I could go on and on, but I have to say that CoD4 isn't something to be snubbed. It just couldn't break the glass ceiling that was Counter Strike (which, at that time, was Source [because GO wasn't even in alpha state at that time]), and I can't blame people for thinking its the more competitive game. Activision had an eSports game in CoD4, but they ruined it.
this is like the 3rd or 4th time i hear the "Quake-Friend " - story from thorin, this must be one of his all time favourites :D you should do like a "best of " ,where you just tell funny/interesting stuff you encountered over the years in the gaming and e-sports space
So to sum up in a few words, Basically You can't have the success without the Noobs, The Noobs must come and be catered for to keep the Community alive :) been doing that and catering for them in Quake for the last 15 years, I have high hopes for QC and i'm sure it'll be more successful than QL and it would be great if it was more successful than Q3 and could keep it's Activity there rather than players going to another game, but you're right in alot of things you say and you know your stuff, there is a tier system that has been used in QL that seemed to work and improve the game for the Casual players, whats needed in my experience in Quake Live over the last 10 years is more Staff at HQ dealing with peoples issues ;) In Q3 we did'nt have that problem, bring back /rcon ! ;p Give the players what they need and you'll keep them, all they demand is Fun and the sense of Achievement.... ;) But for me it's always been about the Community and the chance to meet up in real life and make life long friends... hf gg's Peace !
well im not looking it at a comp seen but there are esports of it even though it esports seen isn't big but what they do is just do what cod does change the rules alot to make it like a esport
Being a fan of this type of genre AND actually lived in the era of these type of games i.e. Quake, Unreal Tournament, Doom, (shogo - had to add it) I resonate with absolutely everything you have said and completely agree with your thoughts and opinions on this type of genre and where games are at today. That being said the reason for my comment today is not because of the contents of the video but the shear quality and splitting at the seams effort you put in to this, not to many people would take the time. If you are reading this comment or watching the video (which why would you be reading this if you're watching, this deserves way more likes, and views based on the 100% outstanding effort Thooorin put in even if you do not agree with his thoughts and opinions on the subject Outstanding Thooorin - Happy to hit that sub buttom - CHEERS M8
2.5 years old video and still very true. The days of quake are kind of over. The only hope is diabotical it promises at least things that are missing in quake champions.
I wonder how big of a factor it is that the primary competitive mode doesn't match with the more fun yet still competitive casual mode. So something like 1v1 in Quake and SC versus FFA(Q) or lets say BGH(SC).
Talking about not being able to compete. What does thooorin think about smash brothers melee where the top 5/6 players have won every major tournament for nearly 10 years?
if they game doesnt change ever like patches and the best strategies have come out whoever masters them the most will win every time until either some new guy shows up and becomes a god or the old guys get too old and start falling out you get the same 5/6 players win every time
Are you dismissing their greatness because there are no patches? There are no patches on in real sports. Also there have been huge meta changes in its 15 years despite no changes as players adapt to each other. Not every game needs to constantly be updated, sometimes it already good enough.
+Sparrowhawk actually 'real sports' do have 'patch changes'. Football is drastically different now than it used to be due to changes in QB protection and how heavily DB's can play defense on receivers. Basketball implemented the three point line and also made changes to how much contact was allowed on defense, drastically changing the nature of the game. Melee is a fine eSport to watch, but there isn't really a lot of competition below like the top ten players or so, kind of like the Tennis example Thoorin used. A good player will just completely dominate a lesser opponent and there won't really be a chance of an upset. The difference is that Smash has relatively frequent new releases and the game is kept interesting for the casual players, giving an audience to support the competitive scene. With Quake I would bet most people really just can't be bothered.
Thorin, Thanks also for doing this. It's great for some Nostalga... Dwango... holy shit I haven't heard that in years... I used to play on the CompuServ Doom 2 Ladder... I was 7 years old... I remember SpaceManSpiff and Dicky were the two guys that I could not beat. Man... the OLD days... wow
Good old Days with Clanarena, CPL, ESWC, WCG and LANs, LANs, LANs. I trained and played for fun on LANs with a Friend who played in Ocrana, PoD, dr ect. it was so much Fun to play Q3A on a high LEvel until Diablo 2 stole my Time and i could never catch up again because Quake 3 was evolving so fast. Thorin brought back some good Memories, but at the same Time it is realy sad to see how unpopular Arena Shooters are. But what he said makes sense, the Casual Player from today is different from what we were back in the Days where we where running around in Quake 3 and never used the Jump Button or when who aimed with the Rocketlauncher on the Enemys Head insted of lower Parts. We were Casuals in the Beginning but willing to invest Time and Blood into our beloved Games. Greetings from Germany and Quake for Live!
Let's hope the new quake will be similar enough to q3 / qw / quake live so we can destroy all the OW 12yearolds, who think bunnyhopping is jumping in one place making binded emote-sqeals.
Good video but I have to point out that Quake fans did not create esports. The fighting game competitive scene existed years before Quake even though their community was a much different demographic at the time.
I think that nowadays competitive market is big enough to give quake champions a really good chance to shine for few years. People are gonna find out what it takes and a lot of them is going to stay. Im not worried.
I'm a fan of quake and I totally agree with you. But games like street fighter also share the same problem of not being casual friendly and got rebirth in 2008 thanks to Street Fighter 4 and now the competitive scene is really healthy even though the casual crowd that play these games is still little compared to other games. I hope that Quake Champions will be what Street Fighter 4 was for the fighting games scene, arena FPSes really need that game that will bring the genere back to life again
Quake makes the most sense for great suspenseful Tournaments. Also, a good singleplayer mode (like in Unreal Tournament 2004 or Quake 3) help to get into these games.. It makes it easy to practise the game like Bot games in DotA 2 or LoL do.
You could also apply this to counter-strike. Look back at the playstyle on pubs between 99 and 2003, when CS was really just crushing the competition number of players wise. It was on 24/7 dust1 servers and maps like aztec where theres a couple simple choke points, you rush the enemy and face off, round after round, with no real skill or strategy. But this was the only game at the time where you could have realistic hitscan weapons with cool skins (talking about the default skins, compare the original CS mp5 to the one in half-lfie, miles better) that everyone played. As people started to master CS and the competition even on pubs evolved a lot of those casual players would later choose games like CoD and Battlefield, and find CS too unforgiving. But I agree CS is still more accessible than quake.
I doubt quakelike games will ever disappear completely, there will always be developers and gamers that grew up playing arcade style shooters and who enjoy that type of gameplay. I highly doubt they will ever be as popular as they once were but there will always be a scene for them. Take Warsow for example, I remember vividly how my beloved Day of Defeat scene took a relatively big hit when Warsow came out but it evened out in the end(sadly, DoD has since gone the way of the dodo, that game was very fun to play competitively)
A simple example of that would be Reflex. Game is basicly a copy of quake with the best netcode i've seen so far in games. Yet it floats at like 20-50 players with peak being like 70 or something if i remember properly.
Mate, TCP/IP is a Protocol used to transmit/control packets whereby it sends ACK packets to ensure that the packet that was just sent is not corrupt otherwise a re transmit is required. it has nothing to do with dial up... What you are referring to is Quake was one of the first games to have a SERVER rather than following the PEER to PEER play style of Doom.
No, Quake was actually the first game to my knowledge to implement TCP/IP at all. Before this games like Doom for instance used IPX or modem-modem connections, where you like he said actually had to choose to dial or be dialed up for play.
This vid is 100% gold, refer so many people to come and see what this is about. The similarities between Halo and COD (Quake and CS) are astonishing, not only does it explain alot, but alot of your main crux falls in line with my way of thinking as well (a Halo player of over 10 years). So sad to see something so strong rise and fall so quickly and with devs who initially i feel dont know what is going on :(
There is ranking in Quake Live, and there are servers for low ranking players only. Start with Clan Arena (CA), and WATCH THE CHAT. Your team mates will tell you how to play, and if you listen, you will get better relatively fast. Also, set your mouse sensitivity to 50/360, no acceleration, and just practice until you get used to it. High mouse sense in Quake will kill your accuracy. If you get into Quake Live - YOU WILL LOVE IT - at least if you like FPS's.
At 14:55 I just love this point I can Soo realate to it new games don't have the reward of getting better than another player like Quake did,if esports are sports I think Quake is the most sportish of them all it requires the most practice and "Quake fitness" like real sports training in Quake is hard but pays of so well
I usually don't share my opinions with Thorin, but he is speaking the truth. I played Q3 since trying to compete since 1999, and the part of "today you are wrecking me but someday... I will wreck you all" IT' COMPLETELY TRUE. I played on ClanBase for several years and even won a few medals with my clan, I can say the same about QuakeLive... and QL is not even the shell of the shit of what it was. I just want a really good Rocket Arena... and not the shit that CA was and is.
Excellent point of view about old school games where the hardcore was the core of fun, not like now where u have a fucking checkpoint evey 20 seconds or where u cant get rekt and feel frustrated and go crying to play something dumb-easier. Impressive comparison with tennis, so accurate!
don't you feel that mentioning a game like Halo near Quake is pretty silly? OOh we had greek classical theatre, but after that got done we had a guy clicking spoons together in the village, totally keeping the culture alive
Regardless of your opinions of games involved MLG was a pretty big component of eSports and had a lot of impact. Early non-Korean SC2 was basically the MLG circuit with the occasional IEM, there were some iconic moments from that era.
MLG actually popularized modern esports in the western world. I play a lot of UT/CS but I admit that halo/CoD really brought that mainstream scene for FPS games. Also, playing controller vs keyboard/mouse are different disciplines. I guarantee a PC player with no controller experience would get fucked by good players on the console(same the other way around).
I agree, i think they should separate people at the beggining, they could ask you about you experience, and make veterans play against veterans, and noobs against noobs. Then the matchmaking system can adjust it all in 1 month, and everybody will be happy. Because yes, the difference between a good quake player and a noob is massive, maybe more than any other game.
The best comparison to QL or QC is SC/SC2 with no campaign, in terms of very high skill ceiling and the fact as a new player you are going to get stomped hard by even someone only slightly better than you. Macro = Stacking, Micro = Aim. It’s the same reason I don’t expect RTS to make a comeback either :(
Not sure if you will read this but don't you think the focus on 'esports' killed Quake style games? Wot I mean by this is that there used to be a competitive scene that wasn't based around esports, you used to have leagues like barrysworld and savage that had TDM & CTF leagues with 50-80 teams with different divisions which men't even casual players could enjoy competitive quake but vs teams of their own skill level. Germany, France and the states had similar large leagues too as well as Clanbase which was the 'pro' league. Fast forward to today we don't have these types of leagues anymore which means the fast majority of players aren't even playing competitively as a team they just solo queue and if they get to high ELO than maybe they will be picked up as a team.
Duel is not unattractive to "casual" Quake players because of supposed increased skill requirement. I don't even think it is the case that duel is somehow more skill demanding. That's what a lot of people like to think because that's the main competitive mode, but it did not become the main competitive mode due to its skill requirements. It became the main competitive mode for logistical reasons. Skill requirement is not why duel is unattractive to "casual" Quake players. It is unattractive because it changes the nature of the game. I've been playing Q3 (and QL) sporadically since it first came out. I love the game, it offers something that no other game does. I have almost always played FFA. I don't care much for duel. For me, Quake is an extremely fast paced, intense skill focused non-stop combat action massacre. Duel is not that. Item control is the most important facet of Quake dueling, and defensive play style is much more at place there. Just look at top QL players. Between great aim and great defense, great defense consistently wins. Btw, I've watched some Quake Champions gameplay on YT, and I really like what they've done with the game. The time limit is now 5 min (I remember when 10 min in Q3/QL was considered very short) and there's only 3 lives, so the matches are much faster, more dynamic and combat focused. Also, the addition of the champions with different stats and abilities shifted focus from item control to combat quite noticeably. It happens much more often in QC that a player would try to get frags before getting stacked. I think Quake Champions may have a great future and has actually a potential to resurrect competitive Quake in a big way. It may become DOTA to Overwatch'es LoL.
Personally I think Arena Shooters evolved into Class Based FPS like TF2, then into "Hero Shooters", or trash like Overwatch. And I think it's only a matter of time before we see someone take the best aspects of Team Fortress and Overwatch, and make something truly special. I think that whatever that game is will be an amazing team sport, but for say, a 1v1 deathmatch game....maybe look at Smash or other fighting games and something from there could come about?
Maybe Quake should go the path of TF2, TF2 and QWTF are distent cousins, but TF2 managed to keep it's soul in the transformation, and still is today pretty big. Quake doesn't have to be like the other new games, but still evolve, it needs to adapt to the new audiance, but only enougth for the new adiance to be able to addapt, ID kind of have to think like indi freelance game designers right now.
It's sad that a game that shows true skill could never be number 1.
Back in the Days we had Quake 3 Arena, Starcraft 1 and Counter Strike on the Top.
So yes there was a Time.
Do you still play it?
quake champions wont even be a true skill game because of the character classes - one of which will have x-ray vision SMH
timbo slice
I said the same, but after they anounced that Quake Champions will be PC only i have at least minimum Hopes.
The biggest Question is, can ID step up and reach the old Quality or killed Bethesda everything.
Shin Tenkai i have zero hope for any fps game with loadouts / perks / ultimate abilities / character classes -
I'll tell you a story. I'm 21 years old now and I started playing quake abut 2 years ago. My brother had recently picked it up and I thought 'hey I may as well'. I remembered playing a bit of quake 3 a while ago when I got my first pc and even then before that when my older brothers were introduced to it by a friend at a land party. It was the first First Person shooter game I had really ever played. I by the very definition got rekt by them when I was trying it out. They were quite shit as well but I was about 10 at the time so it's fine for that to happen. All the bright colours from all these amazing weapons. Gothic themes and fast paces fluid movement. I enjoyed it so much. I couldn't really think for myself or have much in the way of understanding how good of a game it actually was, I just knew I liked it, everything it had to offer. I didn't know how to strafe jump but I saw other people jumping around so whatever. I hijacked anyone's pc to play because I needed to play as much as possible. Eventually everyone got bored of quake and started playing diablo 2, and I didn't see quake again. After that lan and a few years later when I got my own pc one of the first games I installed was quake 3 arenas. We didn't have internet, so I couldn't play online. I didn't even know that's what it was meant for. I fired it up with bots and started working my way through the levels. I can win, bring it on, hurt me plenty, hardcore and nightmare... Wow, Xaero was hard... I can tell you now I never managed to beat him. I had consumed quake to the extent that it allowed me and I got bored. With no one else to play with and completely ignorant to the online gaming community and e-sports itself. I knew who fatality was, though. My brother had one of his motherboards, though I didn't even know he played quake. Anyways that brings me to when I finally found out about quake live. I thought 'hey quake online, lets try it out'. Its a small community where I live and people mostly played clan arena so I joined it. wow... I can't tell you how long I spent looking at other people play while I waited for the round to end and for me to finally get back in there. I was infuriated at how these people were so good. If one of them pulled out the lightning gun in a open space I needed to back off else I'd die. I just couldn't compete with their aim. The constant rails from these pros, all I could do is bring out the nade launcher and hold a front for me team while we tried to win. I saw someone make the bridge to rail circle jump on Campgrounds and I thought... 'interesting glitch'. Then I saw everyone else do the same damn thing. I fired up a local game and I spent hours practicing that jump. I just couldn't do it. I watched videos and tried again. during loading times for the round to begin I'd try the jump then hide away somewhere. After a few weeks I finally started to get it. The next step was making sure I could get it 100% of the time. Then someone told me I wasn't strafe jumping right. That I should practice the strafe jumping map. I honestly didn't think strafe jumping could be harder than that circle jump. But because of the deeper understanding of the games mechanics from practicing the circle jump it was a bit easier, but no less painful to get down. I kept at it. playing. eventually getting a proper mouse with a 'perfect sensor' and good mouse pad. I started to experiment with my cfg. I found out most pros used acceleration so I started tweaking it. disabled damage numbers for my lg. found a good crosshair for it. Then I saw someone get the bridge to rail backward... I honestly didn't know that was even possible. It makes sense now, knowing quakes full range of motion. I started to get good in clan arena. I could out do people with the lg, sometimes my score would be around the top. I think once it was even at the top. Then someone told me about dueling and how that's where the actually competitive scene is. I started a duel vs this guy I destroyed in clan arena, and guess what happened. He destroyed me. I then dueled an equal in clan arena and he annihilated me 20 to -2. I thought I was reaching the top of the skill ceiling in quake but the honest truth is I hadn't even come close. The next day I tried to duel someone who was actually good. He's one of those guys that could go pro if he played more and didn't already have a life. People say that but in this case its true. I honest to god pro. The kind of guy who needs to duel the best of the best to have an even match. That first duel on ztn(bloodrun) ended with a score of 62 to -2. he killed me on average of once every 10 seconds. His constant rails. this overwhelming feeling of helplessness far worse than the first clan arena match I had more than a year ago. He didn't let me do anything. I'd get a weapon then die. It was one of the worst feelings I've had. since then I've dueled him well over 100 times and many more pros just as good as him many more times. I've climbed a short ladder leading nowhere and haven't managed to beat one of them. but I'll tell you this. that first guy that I dueled that raped me but I dominated him in ca normally. Well I'll win every game vs him without dying. Its not bragging its just that he's too easy to read. He doesn't try to prevent me from taking control of the map. He doesn't punish me where he should and as a result I there isn't anything he can do. vs the pros I now end up with a score of about a 2 to 1 ratio. I've even had the lead every now and then. It's much better than the original 60 to -2. I'm starting to understand that quakes skill level isn't in landing shots. It's predicting and outsmarting your opponent. The shots is a requirement, the perfect movement is required, the circle jumps is something that must just happen every time or else you'll lose, if you don't have perfect timing of mega you'll lose, if you can't see that you must actually leave red alone and run to mega to contest it or else your opponent will get it for free then work your way back to red achieving two things. One disrupting his timing of the item, and two actually preventing him from getting any stack making him a threat on the map you'll lose.
respect
Dude, you make me feel old. I've been playing Quake for 21 years. lol
i feel like aim and game sense are both skillful necessities though
I´ve been a Quake admirer for years, followed the birth and eventual death of arena type e-sports shooters. I knew how hard the game was, so I never got into it, but it was great as visual spectacles go. Then QL came out. I made an account. Set up the keys. Went in and did the obligatory vs AI matchup, which was supposed to tell you your rank for better matchmaking. After that, jumped into the server. First game, FFA, 1 kill.... 50 deaths. Mind you, I had about 3000+h FPS experience by then, in slower games, sure.
I gave QL a few more tries, eventually got to 0:3 KDR in a round, but I dropped. The game just felt like work. It was hard, exhausting, harsh and unrewarding environment, dominated by the veterans of the scene. That being said, I would never want QL to be anything different. That also means Quake will never be fun for casual chaps who dont spend 50h a week in a videogame. Which is depressing, because Quake represents something very special.
I guess very reliable matchmaking could turn it around, but Quake Live proved that whatever matchmaking system should be used, it should be developed at some fucking brain trust, funded by Darpa and done by captured and enslaved talent from the lead AI developers in the world...
try lowering your mousespeed, go for atleast 25 cm/360
Word, 9 overtimes one just one map. And for the video, Thorin's speaking the truth. But Quake could bring in "casuals" without seeping out the essence of Quake. I just want a DM game with a player base large enough to not have to search for pickups on iirc/discord to get a decent match.
I can say it definitely doesn't take that long. While Quake 3 was first fps game i ever played, i never played it much, and later i started playing quake live and got straight into tier 3 in ffa. I don't know how much it matters but i was playing on crt at 85hz(later 120hz) and that was before high hz lcd screens became popular.
Very old comment to reply to, but Capture The Flag with a group of friends is soooooo good! That's mainly how I have played arena shooters. Back then it was easy to get 10+ people to connect via LAN and hang out for a weekend, so perhaps that's not as easy to get going these days.
@@snook.1 those were the days! Definitely worth the time and fun back then.
Arena shooter is the word you are looking for in the intro
Veteran Quake Player here (not very good though xD)
About 14:09, in order to make high skill ceiling videogames viable for the average gamer, you only need a good matchmaking system that won't match up those players with people that are obviously better. Is that simple.
DOTA 2 and LoL have also very steep learning curves and are hard to master and still have plenty of low skilled players having fun with them.
I don't know if a new Quake game might become popular or not but I know for a fact that if the skill ceiling is very high (as high as other Quake Games), it would not be a detrimental factor on it's popularity as long as the matchmaking system is decent. There are other factors that need to be tanken care off, like the expectator experience on fast paced team based fps games (which is literally SHIT in all games I've seen, like Quake TDM, Wolfenstein, Overwatch, etc). Following a fast paced/team based fps game is a nightmare for the average expectator. It is just not an enjoyable experience. On the contrary, focusing on one pro player is easy to follow but does not make any sense on team based games, obviously. That's why Quake duels where so popular back in the days and even non Quake players could enjoy it.
I think your matchmaking thing is the big problem. Addressing his sports example, your not playing against pro tennis players at all times. Or at all really. You generally play against people around your skill level. If your new you play against new players. It's like that for many popular games as well. I don't play CS against Olofmeister, I play against other bad players :D If a few new players got together and played Quake (as someone who's watched some but never played it) it seems like it would be fun for them to play against each other.
But you also need a decent sized playerbase for matchmaking to work as intended. I assume the amount of people playing Quake is fairly small compared to other games, and/or it isn't drawing in new players. If this is true, this also helps cause what he was talking about, where the new player is stomped into the ground during their first few matches. If a playerbase is small, it is (or at least seem to be) likely that the average player is much better at the game than the avg. player of a more popular game. They've been playing for longer and been more devoted to the game. Those people are much more passionate about Quake as a game than random kids playing CoD (for example). They have stuck with it for long enough to get good. If there aren't enough low skill/new players to match the new player against they will be forced to play against people who are much better than they are, or not get into a game at all. New players are thrown into the deep end, and this generally isn't good for player retention.
No Aim No Gain Exacly that is what I have been saying. The MOBA genre is hardcore as fuck for new players, and yet LoL is the most popular game on the planet. To say that Quake can't be popular because it has a high skill ceiling is ridiculous. Also, Quake has one big advantage over other games, it is easy to just pick up and play. The average FFA match lasts what? 4-5 minutes the most? That is a FAR CRY from the 40 minutes or so that LOL matches last. Also FFA has the advantage of not putting any burden of responsibility on the player, he/she is up for himself, and doesn't need to worry about his team mates yelling at him when they lose.
And lastly, Quake is very easy to learn. It is an incredibly easy game for a newbie to understand and is a very fun game to play casually. The ONLY issue I see is the whole "new players will get crushed by veterans" thing which can be easily solved by the matchmaking system you brought up and that exists on every fucking game nowadays. C'mon ID, it's not that hard
find a gamemode that shines in the AFPS genre and play against others of whom you have a chance against, and quake can be big again
Quake champions was my first quake and I love it so much. Love spending 3 hours to get one bridge to rail strafe jump.
My friends on steam all quit within an hour
As a Reflex and TF2 6s player this is a really hard pill to swallow tbh.
Thorin, do you have any interest for overwatch as an E-sport?
I guess he isn't, or he would create content for it. Overwatch is created from the ground up to be a casual, fun experience, not hardcore competition. Much like other Blizzard games like Hearthstone (!) and Heroes of the Storm it has a competitive scene. Overwatch scales very good with skill and can create intense matches, but it is just not comparable to a game made on a competitive basis.
I saw him make some overwatch esports related tweets, so he probably follows the scene.
It's just a little too new to have analysis for it, he can't really be a historian and say: 2 weeks ago this team was dominant and was carried by this guy. Plus patches come so rapidly almost every week and major ones every 3 months. So you should definitely wait for a meta to settle down and get some history behind these teams to do proper analysis.
Overwatch is a great fun good looking game but there should not a pro scene for it
Tbh in its current state its not even competitive
" Overwatch is created from the ground up to be a casual, fun experience, not hardcore competition"
You could replace Overwatch with LoL and it would still hold true so what now ?
Sad times for Quake, the best game.
Best fps maybe, not best game.
Old school shooters are better, I do have bias cause I'm older but if I ignore that the faster paced game is generally better from a spectator sport. It's just more exciting. I would adore a change to older FPS standards, the most fun I've had in years in traditional DM, TDM was on Tribes/Tribes Ascend. Again there is bias to my opinion that can't be denied.
I'm not really older and I agree with you. Old games are better and I have no "nostalgia" or "bias" because I played newer and older games at the same time.
Not to mention 1v1 is inherently more interesting to watch because you never miss anything. There's no chance of spectating the larger group of players only to have the lurker on the other side of the map end up getting a 3k for example. In cs it's not that big of a deal because of the game's pacing but part of the problem with games like OW is that it can be really difficult to capture all the action in a way that's interesting for the spectators.
The netcode comparison isn't really fair because HL and Quake have very different style of hitboxes. Quake uses basically 2 squares to create their hitbox which makes "regging" shots alot easier because there is less information that needs to be relayed to make the calculations. HL has always used a more precise hitbox setup where it is possible to miss through legs and just the overall structure is more complicated to relay that information.
Underestimating Joe Rogan and his army.
It'd be cool to hear your thought's on The GD Studio's Diabotical as well as the new Quake.
Meanwhile us UT competitive players getting no spotlight :'(
I really feel for quake and other hardcore games. Id love to get more into a game such as quake but i know its gonna be lonely, noone of my friends has it in them to actually sit down and get slaughtered for hours against better players. Like even now when i play cs:go with my friends, we just fuck around really and shoot stuff. We dont actively try to improve at the game. Its fun and all but sometimes abit unsatisfying.
TF2 might be more popular as a casual game but it really has a high skill ceiling compared to games like Overwatch.
I also think TF2 is the only popular game that has the most resemblance to Quake (TF was born as a mod for Quake after all, and its classes were based around the Quake weapons)
I remember someone once saying that OW's skill ceiling is as high as a house, TF2's skill ceiling is as high as a cathedral, and Quake is a skyscrapper.
I just get frustrated when i play cs:go, i just hate it when weapons don't hit where i aim, while in quake its not so annoying when im doing bad. I rather spend hours practicing strafejumps than how different weapons recoil. I never understood why tf gets compared to quake, its far from it.
I really hope QC blows up
Late comment...
The mod you're looking for at 21:40 is Navy Seals for Quake, that is what Gooseman made before he joined the A-Team and helped with Action Quake 2.
Regarding Quake and eSports tho, for me it's fine that Quake is a niche. All I wish for Quake/Clone is that it has a large enough following to merit a duel lan/tournament circuit (12/year would be a dream come true).
Even if you don't play Quake, 1v1 is a great spectator sport. Every major Quake event (the few that are left) has more viewers on Twitch, than we've had players the past 10 years. They also get a lot of positive feedback, because even if you don't understand all the mechanics of the game, everyone can grasp the basic concept. Also it's clean, stripped from all the arcade features of modern games, just core gameplay.
I tried watching a top-tier Overwatch match, and yeah Overwatch is fun to play, but it's really bad for spectating. The main issue I have with it, is that it's really hard to see what is going on. It's not that I can't process the information, it's more that there is so much unnecessary gimmick shown on the screen, that I can't even see what cool stuff the player might be doing. This is better when spectating ingame, but it's hell on livestreams.
I get what you are saying about casual players and the 80%, but maybe Quake don't need the 80% ingame, we just need them as competitive viewers. Like every real sport, many people watch, very few play.
But that sounds more like a job for an event organizer than a game developer :)
The gist is: id Software games are like arsty music and LoL-like games are like "commodity music".Great analogy, compelling arguments, fam. Subscribed.
Agree to 100%
Skill level to high.
I play 99% duel. Im bad at it. Max Elo was 1450. But:
Its pure
Its fast as hell
Its tactics
Its reading other minds
And if i lose to a 2000 elo guy, im more fascinated with what kind of ease he crushed me, instead of being scared.
I mean in which game you can compete with players which are at the top. You cannot play agains NBA players, but in QL you sometimes can. And its funny :D
The thing is, and what I realize is going to be the downfall/death on arrival of Quake Champions, is the fact that no one my age plays Quake. I'm fifteen, and kids my age really just don't know what Quake is. They had played Doom and knew what it was, so when Doom 4 came out it was successful to my age group. Not because it was an arena shooter, but because it was familiar. Kids my age haven't even heard of Quake, so it's going to launch without any of my generation to play it and try to get good. Even if they had heard of it, you're right, the competitive aspect down to the lowest levels of Quake can never truly be enjoyed by a casual player. Quake Champions is going to launch and the way they're marketing it, plus the issues I just talked about, are going to kill it faster than it can recover.
_sick 0 1 year later, Quake Champions gameplay has improved immensely and on Steamcharts QC looks to have about 1000 ish concurrent players per day. That's dismal compared to Overwatch and CS GO, but not dismal enough to say it's dead yet.
I don't think something as extreme as what you're suggesting will come to pass, but your points are all valid. We'll just have to wait and see how Bethesda and id software can promote their new esport once it officially releases.
@@Crazd22 qc sucks now it had horrible performance issues and it's not con every conse like doom 2016
Well this was unexpected video
Is it? With quake champs and diabotical coming out I think it was only a matter of time.
+messik it was a surprise to me....
These are my favourite, especially since i'm not into the LoL or CSGO scene.
+Justin those are the only two relevant scenes lol
Dota :)
your views are so fit in my opinion man. also loved when u mentioned led zep, and compared it to tool. that was the exact name that was on my mind. great videos great commentaries!
so the problem isn't with Quake, its with people
Well it might never have been the number 1 *in player count* for obvious reasons. However, quake players are known to be like the tier-0 of FPS gaming; *put even Quake non-pros in any easier game such as CS and they will be miles ahead of the other players.* It is amusing to watch "quake pros", or "Team Fortress Classic players", or "older game veterans" simply jump into a new game and automatically compete with the pros there or completely destroy their opponents within minutes of adjustment because their base skill and knowledge is just that high.
Quake has not added any accessibility and maintained the fact that pro players used to be around 2x better rather than only around 0.5x better than the vast majority of players. This means the vast majority will have the experience where even if they try their best they won't be able to kill a better player unless they have about a 1-5% stroke of luck. Unfortunately many RTS with actual balance are seeing the results of this: Dawn of War 3, any new and balanced RTS, will see literally a 1% of players who are way better at the top, and target that upper 5-10%, and people still don't like that "level of complexity" even though it has been dumbed down for them. They want to be able to compete at an easier game. In CS, this is probably somewhere around 40% chance in terms of a bad player killing a better player; they took out so many aspects to make it more accessible. Random accuracy (shots that can just 'hit' with no reason at all,*"gambling/instant gratification"), no movement allowed (basically just a stand still simulator), counter-strats /weapons gone, the reflex and shot is basically just CS and everyone can "point-and-click". With raw old-school mechanics and little to no focus on accessibility for "the other 90%" who are not at the top of the curve, it never overtook in community numbers as the 'casuals' in Quake are typically 'top tier' in any self-proclaimed e-sports title. Even older games with actual healthpoints where it's impossible to kill in one shot without a combo of attacks were never as popular as a dumbed down game that anyone can play. In comparison with Valve games, or self-proclaimed so called esports games, they are overly simplified and use esport scenes as a fake market for hype and attracting children.
Speaking of Overwatch, it's ridiculous how easy it is to beat pros there. The outcome of a match is so random that I've beaten many of the top players in Solo Queue (while they were playing with their teammates). It's the complete opposite of Quake where you can't accomplish anything as a newbie.
lol, this comment is an obvious lie.
Btw RNG in cs:go is so much much much bigger then in Overwatch...
Caron do you even play overwatch?
jade XY Yes and?
YexaC Yea. Because aim... oh sorry reflex is the only skill you can have in any game. xD Poor CS fanboys.
I agree, screw RNG games. I have put over 5k hours into CS:GO and the RNG and horrible netcode/hitboxes ruins it. "RNG in a skill based game" is a meme for a reason in that game. Can I add you on Steam bro?
I first started playing Quake Live when I was 11-12 in 2012 or 2013 when I had a shitty computer and I played with my laptop's trackpad. It was still fun as hell and this was when I first discovered online gaming. I still play and get my ass whooped by people who are old enough to be my parents and it's fun. I think arena shooters are the most skill-based FPS games ever because not only do you have to have really good aim and reflexes, but you need to practice item control, memorize spawns, memorize spawn times, predict where your enemy is at all times, practice movement like strafe jumping, learning shortcuts on every map, and knowing which weapons to use in certain situations. I'll never give up trying to be the best at Quake, Quake and many arena shooters deserve more recognition and it's sad that they're slowly going down. I will never stop playing such an amazing game, a game that you really need to give it your all in that match of clan arena, freezetag, duel, etc.
This video is spot on. I think ID should embrace quake's legacy and cultivate an allure around the game as a purist FPS for the most competitive players while promoting duel mode as a spectator esport. I love playing CSGO but I find it's not very engaging to watch a 5v5 match when the "camera" can only show one of the ten player's perspectives at any given time. Duel mode in quake however is some of the most engaging gamplay to watch in esports IMO. I think most esport games are like golf - it's enjoyable to the people who play, but it not that engaging for most people to watch on TV. Quake has the potential to be like UFC - very engaging to watch despite that fact that most people who do don't practice MMA. Quake arguably is the only true spectator esport and ID should really exploit this aspect of the game.
Just a "secret" tip for people looking for hardcore FPS.
There is Unreal Tournament:ALpha(for the younger guys, it was THE game with quake 3 and CS 1.x back in the days) in making.
Interesting thing is, they released alpha version and they are working on it WHILE recieving feedback from people playing it, therefore game already developed a lot since i first tried it in posivite way.
It will probably never be as big as CSGO or LOL, but very interesting option for people looking for fast pure action.
quake champions is a superb game. arenas will be back. as terminator once said !
Great video. I just hope they don't dumb down Quake, trying to make it move like Overwatch.
that's my biggest concern. Quake is such a skilled game. As far as pure technical skill is concerned it's probably the most demanding shooter in that department. I could imagine being a csgo pro but being a quake pro seems impossible :D. The moves those guys pulled off.
+Gapi P I've seen the QuakeCon leak, trust me it's not that big of a deal.
Both Overwatch and Quake are great games and require skill for each. I understand that the best pro players in Quake have probably the best aim in the world up there with the best CS and UT players. But OW players team play needs to be amazing and aim and ult management and to be diverse etc xx
quake requires WaY more skill than ow
You need some skill for anything if you make it into a compo, even a pie-eating contest. But most games after quake are based around series of noobifications compared to quake. Never was that more true than with overwatch. These comparative noobifications can be easily recited, factually, case-by-case.
To be honest, when talking about the first online fps games, I have always thought that Starsiege: Tribes was the best suited for actual competetive gameplay. I remember back in the day when my old friends played in one of the best European Tribes clans, those matches were intensive as shit. Skiing to the enemy base In Raindance, killing yourself and dropping the flag mid-air to a teammate while the enemy was hunting the flag carrier. Good times.
So... wouldn't a even decent skill ranking / match making system fix everything you mentioned?
Yeah if the dev's and marketers of these new arena shooters were competent
So now that World Championship for Quake Champions is around the corner, how do you think about this topic now?
TAKE A LOOK AT QWC THORIN the playoffs have been fucking INSANE !!!!!!! grand final tonight then maybe a great new WHO IS video - VOO !
Fuck its insane how people don't even look how good QC is to watch and the level of skill. At least watch some games from this weekend it sbeen so hype. People suck at games if they dont appreciate this game
+Thooorin I hear your point about Quake But compare it to Overwatch and LawBreakers who do you think will Shine ? In esports ?
This generation can't enjoy something like quake because they are used to short term, easy gained gratification. Most of us don't care about long term improvement, sadly. On top of that, people can't take loses, and have little dedication, which is needed to get better at a deep game. About a year ago I got into fighting games myself, I got my ass kicked for about a month, but now I love it and keep getting better. There is also the social aspect. Team games combine social team play together with easier gameplay, and so it is clear what games will be more popular. It's sad this is the way it is, but on the bright side, there will always be a highly dedicated player base in most difficult game genres. That is especially true in fighting games. A smaller player base also means less kids. I tried playing league a few times, and every time, chats were full of retards spamming "report report". I much rather play with a smaller player base that has no salty kids. So that is fine by me.
try reflex
yeahhhh duuude all these dumb kids cant even pay attention and stuff maaaaan. Back in my day we didnt have all these short attention span call of battlefields and what not
What do you mean by this generation? I never understood the term so if you could clarify that would be lovely.
I'm different from my current generation. I'm about to turn 15 and I love arena shooters even if I suck. I'd rather get destroyed in a match of Quake and learn than never play Quake.
I mean people born in the 90s or 2000s. Myself, I was born in 92.
This video just makes me feel old and im only 26
The single-player of Quake was actually way better than you give credit for but agreed, Quake is basically the grand-father of all serious online multiplayer gaming. The mods were what really made Quake the game it was though - you could play Team Fortress or a ridiculous amount of other mods for Quake and have endless fun on public servers or get right into some serious competitive death-match / CTF / Team Fortress etc in your clan (QWTF is still the original and *BEST* team-fortress experience out there, coming from someone who has literally played every iteration of the "Team Fortress" mods for Quake's many versions and the Half-Life mods and full-blown stand-alone Team Fortress).
People forget too that it was actually Quake's Team Fortress scene which really got behind CS in the early betas and made it incredibly popular with everyone playing online games. A die-hard group still played both but most of us realised that the original Wireplay Team-Fortress leagues we were playing in would probably never get big enough coverage and if pro-gaming was going to become a realistic possibility it would be from another game. Then when CS beta 4 came along a whole host of clans from QWTF started playing CS. Clans in the early UK scene like [SG] (Spice Girls), [EQ], FWD, [sas], [UKLA], [TA], [13] etc and the European clans like EYEballers and countless other European Counter-Strike clans were all comprised of oldskool QWTF players which instantly established a pretty competitive scene focused on aim and high-skill gameplay (and bunnyhopping, because CS used the same air-movement system Quake employed and we all found out you could bunnyhop VERY early on in the game's life) which made everything snow-ball from there. That is the reason CSGO even has a scene in the first place, rather than VALVe's involvement after they bought the rights from Cliffe and Goose. Without Quake's online mods we most likely wouldn't have competitive first-person shooters as an "esport" to this day though.
Personally I really hope Quake Champions is a success - and from what I've played so far of it, it's already proving to be pretty popular with the old Quakers from back in the day. If the guys can establish a good competitive scene like we had back in the days of QWTF, Quake 3 Arena, CPMA pro-mode etc then the sky is the limit for this kind of esport in my eyes. Quake is a dueling game mainly and some of the duels I've seen so far in the Quake Champions tournament qualifiers for Quakecon have been nothing short of epic. I think depending how much support iD and Bethesda give the game will make or break the competitive scene - if they do it right then Quake Champions can easily rival and surpass a LOT of esports out there and establish itself as the number one competitive 1 vs 1 first-person shooter / dueling esport.
Edit: I think the mod you were struggling to remember was actually called "Navy Seals" or "Seal Team" - I played it a bit but the following for it was practically dead compared to the amount of people just playing Quakeworld Team Fortress or straight death-match / TDM / CTF.
It's starting to be really funny how Thorin refuses to mention Call Of Duty in any positive way ...
Just an FYI, originally Call of Duty was actually based on the Quake engine as well. And let's not forget that Call of Duty 4:Modern Warfare was actually a great shooter with a fairly high skillcap and had higher price pools than CS.
People laughed at me for having CoD4 lan tournament experience because they were looking at the newer CoDs. Honestly, some of the problems with CoD4 were Stopping Power, Juggernaut, and Nubetubes (I know there are more problems than that, but a fair lot of the tournaments I play have rules in which weapons and perks were banned), and it could've easily been where CS:GO sits now. You still needed mechanical skill, strategy, and teamwork in CoD4 by a fair lot. The game had more actually functional choke points than camping spots and positioning was key on the defensive end. I could go on and on, but I have to say that CoD4 isn't something to be snubbed.
It just couldn't break the glass ceiling that was Counter Strike (which, at that time, was Source [because GO wasn't even in alpha state at that time]), and I can't blame people for thinking its the more competitive game. Activision had an eSports game in CoD4, but they ruined it.
Mazadox & Tek9 Stevy ... never forget
this is like the 3rd or 4th time i hear the "Quake-Friend " - story from thorin, this must be one of his all time favourites :D you should do like a "best of " ,where you just tell funny/interesting stuff you encountered over the years in the gaming and e-sports space
So to sum up in a few words, Basically You can't have the success without the Noobs, The Noobs must come and be catered for to keep the Community alive :) been doing that and catering for them in Quake for the last 15 years, I have high hopes for QC and i'm sure it'll be more successful than QL and it would be great if it was more successful than Q3 and could keep it's Activity there rather than players going to another game, but you're right in alot of things you say and you know your stuff, there is a tier system that has been used in QL that seemed to work and improve the game for the Casual players, whats needed in my experience in Quake Live over the last 10 years is more Staff at HQ dealing with peoples issues ;) In Q3 we did'nt have that problem, bring back /rcon ! ;p
Give the players what they need and you'll keep them, all they demand is Fun and the sense of Achievement.... ;)
But for me it's always been about the Community and the chance to meet up in real life and make life long friends... hf gg's Peace !
i wish this aged well
I agree with everything you said. I am an old school quake player.
I want some of what your on for my next quake game, what is it ?
*I hope that one day quake will retake the crown*
Didn't expect the music analogy - hits the spot though.
from horses to cars put that backwards for bf1
bf1 looks interesting and fun. but i cant see a ww1 shooter being at all competitive.
well im not looking it at a comp seen but there are esports of it even though it esports seen isn't big but what they do is just do what cod does change the rules alot to make it like a esport
+ForgottenRebel77 I don't think bf1 is supposed to be esport.
put bf4 esport in the search
Visual every cod and bf has competitive players but it's the players who create the scene and not the publishers who promote it.
Being a fan of this type of genre AND actually lived in the era of these type of games i.e. Quake, Unreal Tournament, Doom, (shogo - had to add it) I resonate with absolutely everything you have said and completely agree with your thoughts and opinions on this type of genre and where games are at today. That being said the reason for my comment today is not because of the contents of the video but the shear quality and splitting at the seams effort you put in to this, not to many people would take the time.
If you are reading this comment or watching the video (which why would you be reading this if you're watching, this deserves way more likes, and views based on the 100% outstanding effort Thooorin put in even if you do not agree with his thoughts and opinions on the subject
Outstanding Thooorin - Happy to hit that sub buttom - CHEERS M8
2.5 years old video and still very true. The days of quake are kind of over. The only hope is diabotical it promises at least things that are missing in quake champions.
I wonder how big of a factor it is that the primary competitive mode doesn't match with the more fun yet still competitive casual mode. So something like 1v1 in Quake and SC versus FFA(Q) or lets say BGH(SC).
Talking about not being able to compete. What does thooorin think about smash brothers melee where the top 5/6 players have won every major tournament for nearly 10 years?
Melee is a current quite big 'esport' that has had almost no developer support and has just been fueled by fans of the game for about 15 years.
yea but if you go a little bit further than the top5 there is a alot of competition about the ranks. Actually even in top5.
if they game doesnt change ever like patches and the best strategies have come out whoever masters them the most will win every time until either some new guy shows up and becomes a god or the old guys get too old and start falling out you get the same 5/6 players win every time
Are you dismissing their greatness because there are no patches? There are no patches on in real sports. Also there have been huge meta changes in its 15 years despite no changes as players adapt to each other. Not every game needs to constantly be updated, sometimes it already good enough.
+Sparrowhawk actually 'real sports' do have 'patch changes'. Football is drastically different now than it used to be due to changes in QB protection and how heavily DB's can play defense on receivers. Basketball implemented the three point line and also made changes to how much contact was allowed on defense, drastically changing the nature of the game. Melee is a fine eSport to watch, but there isn't really a lot of competition below like the top ten players or so, kind of like the Tennis example Thoorin used. A good player will just completely dominate a lesser opponent and there won't really be a chance of an upset. The difference is that Smash has relatively frequent new releases and the game is kept interesting for the casual players, giving an audience to support the competitive scene. With Quake I would bet most people really just can't be bothered.
I agree with everything, but mate, Pink FLoyd were the kings of the 70s.
Keep on doing great critics Thoorin.
I wish so much that TDM would come back... I was at the top of the food chain for Quake 3 1v1 and TDM... stx-revenant
Thorin, Thanks also for doing this. It's great for some Nostalga... Dwango... holy shit I haven't heard that in years... I used to play on the CompuServ Doom 2 Ladder... I was 7 years old... I remember SpaceManSpiff and Dicky were the two guys that I could not beat. Man... the OLD days... wow
Good old Days with Clanarena, CPL, ESWC, WCG and LANs, LANs, LANs.
I trained and played for fun on LANs with a Friend who played in Ocrana, PoD, dr ect. it was so much Fun to play Q3A on a high LEvel until Diablo 2 stole my Time and i could never catch up again because Quake 3 was evolving so fast.
Thorin brought back some good Memories, but at the same Time it is realy sad to see how unpopular Arena Shooters are.
But what he said makes sense, the Casual Player from today is different from what we were back in the Days where we where running around in Quake 3 and never used the Jump Button or when who aimed with the Rocketlauncher on the Enemys Head insted of lower Parts.
We were Casuals in the Beginning but willing to invest Time and Blood into our beloved Games.
Greetings from Germany and Quake for Live!
Let's hope the new quake will be similar enough to q3 / qw / quake live so we can destroy all the OW 12yearolds, who think bunnyhopping is jumping in one place making binded emote-sqeals.
The music industry analogy was very well said. Well done.
I remember watching quake and cod tournaments on Tech Tv and being super excited. Sadly I couldn't play those games in their prime :(
Good video but I have to point out that Quake fans did not create esports. The fighting game competitive scene existed years before Quake even though their community was a much different demographic at the time.
It made it into what it is today
your vids r solid af i love u tbh fam
Thorin, would love to hear your opinions of the cod promod era
You nailed it. Nowadays, a game must be mediocre to be commercial. Just like almost everything else.
I'm depressed
I think that nowadays competitive market is big enough to give quake champions a really good chance to shine for few years. People are gonna find out what it takes and a lot of them is going to stay. Im not worried.
That military style mod for first Quake, which's name you couldn't remember, was actually the original Team Fortress.
I'm a fan of quake and I totally agree with you.
But games like street fighter also share the same problem of not being casual friendly and got rebirth in 2008 thanks to Street Fighter 4 and now the competitive scene is really healthy even though the casual crowd that play these games is still little compared to other games.
I hope that Quake Champions will be what Street Fighter 4 was for the fighting games scene, arena FPSes really need that game that will bring the genere back to life again
The game you tried to come up with is Navy Seals created by gooseman. Video on yt:
Navy Seals Quake (Quake 1 modification)
Quake makes the most sense for great suspenseful Tournaments. Also, a good singleplayer mode (like in Unreal Tournament 2004 or Quake 3) help to get into these games.. It makes it easy to practise the game like Bot games in DotA 2 or LoL do.
You could also apply this to counter-strike. Look back at the playstyle on pubs between 99 and 2003, when CS was really just crushing the competition number of players wise. It was on 24/7 dust1 servers and maps like aztec where theres a couple simple choke points, you rush the enemy and face off, round after round, with no real skill or strategy. But this was the only game at the time where you could have realistic hitscan weapons with cool skins (talking about the default skins, compare the original CS mp5 to the one in half-lfie, miles better) that everyone played. As people started to master CS and the competition even on pubs evolved a lot of those casual players would later choose games like CoD and Battlefield, and find CS too unforgiving. But I agree CS is still more accessible than quake.
I doubt quakelike games will ever disappear completely, there will always be developers and gamers that grew up playing arcade style shooters and who enjoy that type of gameplay. I highly doubt they will ever be as popular as they once were but there will always be a scene for them. Take Warsow for example, I remember vividly how my beloved Day of Defeat scene took a relatively big hit when Warsow came out but it evened out in the end(sadly, DoD has since gone the way of the dodo, that game was very fun to play competitively)
"there will always be developers and gamers that grew up playing arcade style shooters",
for at least another generation there will be...
FTFY
What are your thoughts about Reflex Arena?
A simple example of that would be Reflex. Game is basicly a copy of quake with the best netcode i've seen so far in games. Yet it floats at like 20-50 players with peak being like 70 or something if i remember properly.
Actions Quake 2 was so good, i played that game for more than 10 years. Goold ol' days.
Do all of these points apply to for example the upcoming 2GD's game?
Thorin's points apply ten times as much to Xonotic and Diabotical seems to be closer to Xonotic than Quake.
Mate, TCP/IP is a Protocol used to transmit/control packets whereby it sends ACK packets to ensure that the packet that was just sent is not corrupt otherwise a re transmit is required. it has nothing to do with dial up... What you are referring to is Quake was one of the first games to have a SERVER rather than following the PEER to PEER play style of Doom.
No, Quake was actually the first game to my knowledge to implement TCP/IP at all.
Before this games like Doom for instance used IPX or modem-modem connections, where you like he said actually had to choose to dial or be dialed up for play.
This vid is 100% gold, refer so many people to come and see what this is about.
The similarities between Halo and COD (Quake and CS) are astonishing, not only does it explain alot, but alot of your main crux falls in line with my way of thinking as well (a Halo player of over 10 years). So sad to see something so strong rise and fall so quickly and with devs who initially i feel dont know what is going on :(
Thanks for using Y axis as up and down like an intelligent person.
There is ranking in Quake Live, and there are servers for low ranking players only. Start with Clan Arena (CA), and WATCH THE CHAT. Your team mates will tell you how to play, and if you listen, you will get better relatively fast. Also, set your mouse sensitivity to 50/360, no acceleration, and just practice until you get used to it. High mouse sense in Quake will kill your accuracy. If you get into Quake Live - YOU WILL LOVE IT - at least if you like FPS's.
At 14:55 I just love this point I can Soo realate to it new games don't have the reward of getting better than another player like Quake did,if esports are sports I think Quake is the most sportish of them all it requires the most practice and "Quake fitness" like real sports training in Quake is hard but pays of so well
I usually don't share my opinions with Thorin, but he is speaking the truth. I played Q3 since trying to compete since 1999, and the part of "today you are wrecking me but someday... I will wreck you all" IT' COMPLETELY TRUE.
I played on ClanBase for several years and even won a few medals with my clan, I can say the same about QuakeLive... and QL is not even the shell of the shit of what it was.
I just want a really good Rocket Arena... and not the shit that CA was and is.
Excellent point of view about old school games where the hardcore was the core of fun, not like now where u have a fucking checkpoint evey 20 seconds or where u cant get rekt and feel frustrated and go crying to play something dumb-easier. Impressive comparison with tennis, so accurate!
Where's the separate video?
I think Halo and MLG helped to keep esports alive in the early 2000's that you didn't really mention.
don't you feel that mentioning a game like Halo near Quake is pretty silly? OOh we had greek classical theatre, but after that got done we had a guy clicking spoons together in the village, totally keeping the culture alive
That's disrespectful, but I doubt you have much knowledge of Halo, maybe even less of your own scene in quake.
Thomas Fraser Did you just bring up a fucking console game LOL
Regardless of your opinions of games involved MLG was a pretty big component of eSports and had a lot of impact.
Early non-Korean SC2 was basically the MLG circuit with the occasional IEM, there were some iconic moments from that era.
MLG actually popularized modern esports in the western world. I play a lot of UT/CS but I admit that halo/CoD really brought that mainstream scene for FPS games. Also, playing controller vs keyboard/mouse are different disciplines. I guarantee a PC player with no controller experience would get fucked by good players on the console(same the other way around).
An elo-like ranking system would solve most of the problems you've mentioned
I agree, i think they should separate people at the beggining, they could ask you about you experience, and make veterans play against veterans, and noobs against noobs. Then the matchmaking system can adjust it all in 1 month, and everybody will be happy.
Because yes, the difference between a good quake player and a noob is massive, maybe more than any other game.
The best comparison to QL or QC is SC/SC2 with no campaign, in terms of very high skill ceiling and the fact as a new player you are going to get stomped hard by even someone only slightly better than you. Macro = Stacking, Micro = Aim. It’s the same reason I don’t expect RTS to make a comeback either :(
Not sure if you will read this but don't you think the focus on 'esports' killed Quake style games? Wot I mean by this is that there used to be a competitive scene that wasn't based around esports, you used to have leagues like barrysworld and savage that had TDM & CTF leagues with 50-80 teams with different divisions which men't even casual players could enjoy competitive quake but vs teams of their own skill level. Germany, France and the states had similar large leagues too as well as Clanbase which was the 'pro' league.
Fast forward to today we don't have these types of leagues anymore which means the fast majority of players aren't even playing competitively as a team they just solo queue and if they get to high ELO than maybe they will be picked up as a team.
Duel is not unattractive to "casual" Quake players because of supposed increased skill requirement. I don't even think it is the case that duel is somehow more skill demanding. That's what a lot of people like to think because that's the main competitive mode, but it did not become the main competitive mode due to its skill requirements. It became the main competitive mode for logistical reasons.
Skill requirement is not why duel is unattractive to "casual" Quake players. It is unattractive because it changes the nature of the game. I've been playing Q3 (and QL) sporadically since it first came out. I love the game, it offers something that no other game does. I have almost always played FFA. I don't care much for duel. For me, Quake is an extremely fast paced, intense skill focused non-stop combat action massacre. Duel is not that. Item control is the most important facet of Quake dueling, and defensive play style is much more at place there. Just look at top QL players. Between great aim and great defense, great defense consistently wins.
Btw, I've watched some Quake Champions gameplay on YT, and I really like what they've done with the game. The time limit is now 5 min (I remember when 10 min in Q3/QL was considered very short) and there's only 3 lives, so the matches are much faster, more dynamic and combat focused. Also, the addition of the champions with different stats and abilities shifted focus from item control to combat quite noticeably. It happens much more often in QC that a player would try to get frags before getting stacked. I think Quake Champions may have a great future and has actually a potential to resurrect competitive Quake in a big way. It may become DOTA to Overwatch'es LoL.
the new titan fall 3 ad looks sick
21:30 It's Navy Seals Mr self proclaimed esports historian
Forgot your Kappa
why does quakeworld have a high skill ceiling anyway? All the map movement tricks?
One game that fits the bill; Super Smash Brothers Melee.
beaten by rihanna and chris brow, oh thorin, not sure if that was intentional
In Quake Live, you can have your own servers.
Personally I think Arena Shooters evolved into Class Based FPS like TF2, then into "Hero Shooters", or trash like Overwatch. And I think it's only a matter of time before we see someone take the best aspects of Team Fortress and Overwatch, and make something truly special.
I think that whatever that game is will be an amazing team sport, but for say, a 1v1 deathmatch game....maybe look at Smash or other fighting games and something from there could come about?
z00tlive what do you think of this?
im pretty sure you're more exited for diabotical than quake champions right?
it probably wont be #1 in competitive FPS, but i sure want to see that genre make a reboot
With Quake Champions and Diabotical incoming and Reflex getting better and better I'd say the genre is starting a reboot. :D
Uwot m80 id love to see some old school style FPS action take the stage again :D
Doesn't need to be number 1 at all, just needs to be higher than dead last.
Something different. Is this a Jimi Henrix shirt?? I only see the afro poping out behind the mic^..
Maybe Quake should go the path of TF2, TF2 and QWTF are distent cousins, but TF2 managed to keep it's soul in the transformation, and still is today pretty big. Quake doesn't have to be like the other new games, but still evolve, it needs to adapt to the new audiance, but only enougth for the new adiance to be able to addapt, ID kind of have to think like indi freelance game designers right now.
what's going on with his shoulder???
quake is fucking brutal man, i played arena back in the day. tried live.... 5 years has taken its toll, i got old and slow
Me too, lol .
opinion on QC now that it's playable Thorin?
His microphone has an afro and I respect that.
dreams... shattered.