Linus Torvalds on why desktop Linux sucks
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- Опубліковано 3 лип 2024
- Linus highlights several pain points with regards to desktop Linux.
From DebConf 14 • DebConf 14: QA with Li...
0:00 Application distribution is a huge PITA
2:52 Distros break things and ignore backwards compat.
5:53 Distros waste too much effort on package management
8:26 Linus roasts his own package maintainer
8:50 Windows has a better app distribution experience
9:29 Linux distros expect users to compile everything - Наука та технологія
This video has made several rounds since I've posted it and a common reply I get is, "this video is from 2014, we have flatpak, snap and appimage now!" The irony is that Linus is complaining about having to ship Linux apps in several different formats, and in 7 years, all we've done is add more formats that fragment the ecosystem even further 😂😂😂
Yep, but I feel, at least something is being done. Hopefully we can learn from the mistakes of snap, AppImage and flatpaks and possibly make something better in the future! We're still early in the age of the Linux desktop, but at least we're taking baby steps towards solving fundamental issues. we truly have come a really long way.
Snap is especially irritating when Canonical has already abandoned all of the other Not Invented Here Syndrome projects like Mir but hasn’t adopted flatpak yet. Ugh.
@@duck_that_quacks As a consumer that is attempting to build a GP RHEL desktop, I can't say that things have come very far. Complex, convoluted storage management, the same for file access control, insane dependencies to build apps, fragmented methods of system management, inconsistent command arguments between distros and versions and the list goes on. This is observations since I installed the system drive and started building yesterday. It feels like 1997, the first time I installed a distro with a CD.
@@duck_that_quacks "There are 15 competing standards."
I think I know why this is in everybody's recommended.
"Valve will save linux desktop"
Wow, this is becoming true and true each day
I immediately popped up when he said that. I was so surprised how well he predicted something like that
Thats why some people by shares and get rich... Hahaha
@@faustomadebr but Valve is a private company. No stocks sold in the stock market
@@nikkoa.3639 I mean in general... I just admire how some guys can see these kind of things and I dont. Hahaha.
@@faustomadebr Yeah cause some guys are more perceptive?
5:14 The fact that Linus predicted Valve's needed intervention in the Linux ecosystem proves just how much insight he has on the state of linux and where it will go.
Like man, holy shit. Linus literally predicted that Valve is the only company that'll lift Linux as a desktop OS. We'll see the rise of Linux as a desktop OS when they finally release the Steam Deck.
@@cmaxz817 What about ChromeOS?
@@tolep those are for zoomers, dont worry about that.
@@tolep i dunno what you say about that but Linux's developments these days are moving towards user-friendly more than ever before.
I said that as a guy who have been using Windows for nearly all the time since childhood. Been working on Linux more since I enrolled to a web dev class.
@@cmaxz817 Rise? from 0.86% of the users toan 1%? (and even so that information / data / statistics is wrong, Steam only collects per user who connects on the same computer (not collect by per computer/hardware), imagine 100 people using the same computer with 100 different accounts......., the statistics will be altered and not as they should of being (only 1 computer that 100 diferent person uses)
"The library is used by two people and one of them is crazy" LMAO
Who are those he is talking about?
@@LinuxIsNotAnOperatingSystem Nobody. It's a fake scenario.
2:20
Tom Cruise?
@@LinuxIsNotAnOperatingSystem There's probably no explicit inside joke here, just that in general, programmers, like other people, can be sensitive or resilient to outside opinion.
Let's not forget the talk was given roughly 7 years ago.
nothing has changed since, linux still sucks as desktop.
@@Anon-tt9rz I wouldn't know, to be honest, as I abandoned using it for pretty much this reason 7 years ago, incidentally.
Linus has same big belly as Richard Stallman. Conclusion GNU causes obese males. Disclaimer, it might be coincidence.
@@mrkitty777 It's called Insulin Resistance.
This was a YT algorithm misfire. No reason at all for anybody to be watching this.
Linus looks like an older Tom Scott
An older Richard Stallman too🥺
Underrated
and American version xD
Red Shirts incoming!!!!!!
The thumbnail almost made me think he was Tom Scott
"If it's a bug people rely on, it's not a bug. It's a feature." - Linus Torvalds
To me it seems like Linus Torvalds dedication to (or to enforce) his rules when developing the kernel (like 'don't break userspace') is the fundamental reason the Linux ecosystem has grown to what it is today.
A bug is just an undocumented feature. And yes, Linus Torvalds is my 4th cousin...
Imagine being so hardcore to said your Linux is superior to other OS but then after 20 years you realize your OS is just pile of garbage. Linus Turdfail is the big clown LMAO.
I remember seeing in the code of doom, a comment from Carmack I believe, about a portion of the code, explaining, "I hate when they fix a bug I used to"
@@runninginthe90s75 Linux servers have over 70 percent of the market.If it was the other way around the internet would be down at least half the time. WIndows security sucks. Millions of virus have been written for it and there are still update issues.Microsoft has almost all the market because it was first and it's hard to change. Only fools want one company to control all the computer software, fanboi.
Linus Torvalds is one of the most soft-spoken intelligent swearers I've ever listened to.
Yeah, this made me realize why he's gotten flak for his written communication. Like his cursing etc is so low key in person, he probably writes with that in mind as to how he's calibrated. But then people read it with kind of the broad cultural expectation so he sounds like an asshole when read. I know that's how he read to me.
@@tbird81 based. ok ill stop
Not if you break userspace
@@Turalcar 😂
@Apples Bananas redpilled idk
I just love how in the Linux desktop community saying "Linux is for power users!" is the standard excuse developers use for every broken terrible design and unfixed bug. As though bad software is suddenly fine if it's for "technical people."
I'm a power user which is why I avoid Linux like the plague. Don't have time to waste on fixing basic stuff
and they always trash windows by claiming how full of bugs it is. Linux is not only worst in terms of bugs, they are even more trickier to fix than on windows. on windows, if something goes bad with an app or the OS, it's fairly easy to fix and windows bugs are REALLY well documented online due to the fact there's billions of users online and that fixes that could be applied in 2009 on w7 still works on w11. when something messes up on windows, i'm confident there's a fix. when an app fucks up on linux, good luck finding out why. your best bets are snarky comments from powerusers on forums.
@ When you say fix you mean work around, but with that said, I agree. Issues tend to be more often documented(not necessarily better documented tho) rather than not, and if they are they also have some workaround. Fixes also sometime exist, but that would be a windows update. Something that ideally happens automatically and as a user you usually don't have to directly deal with unless you've opted to update manually.
What kind of bugs are you talking about? I've used linux computers for a while and haven't come had anything break because of the kernel but I have had some things break because I was messing with it or a software I was using had problems.
And even pirated windows is better than any inux distro
Brutal truth. "Nobody should waste their life targeting systems nobody uses".
The fragmentation of the system is both linux's biggest strength and weakness.
@@mortemmalum7228 I can see how the fragmentation is a weakness, but how is it a strength?
@@javierglm95 don't overdose on copium.
Which is hilarious, because he claims to have never even tried Ubuntu--ever. Now, the video I saw him say that in wasn't brand new, so things could've changed since then but he seems like a guy that doesn't give up on his biases like that.
@@ccristi08 also it makes it more redundant to corporate interests (microsoft) otherwise if there was just a few some company could buy them all and kill them
Arguably Android proves this: it took a Linux kernel, modified it, created a GUI and a packaging for software so it only needs one compiled version.
It really makes Linux the most used OS-kernel in the world.
Incorrect: android is a very very stripped down version of linux, android cannot be counted as a linux distro
@@aussiehtc5635 I didn't say it was - I said Linux is the most used OS-kernel not that Android is a distro
@@jonasfermefors android doesnt count as being part of linux at all due to what i said before
@@aussiehtc5635 Check my first post - I'm saying "arguably". I agree it isn't normally counted as such, but it is a modded Linux kernel.
@@jonasfermefors arguably yes but not truthfully
I hate this “normal people = non-technical people” as if it’s perfectly fine to waste “technical people’s” time. NO! Programmers are people too, and I don’t appreciate having to learn a new programming language, 3 APIs, and reading through dozens of man pages just to do something elementary like installing a tool or change some setting.
exactly
I agree. Just because I can do it, doesn't mean I should have to. I'm also lazy, and can't be bothered. Even thou we might be tech-savvy, doesn't mean we don't appreciate ease-of-use just as much as the next guy.
Exactly this. I'm having a good experience with Arch and my KDE Plasma desktop, but sometimes, I just want stuff to work.
Totally. I am pretty confident in my programming skill, my job is literally software engineer with a CS degree. But I absolutely refuse to bother with Anything else other than Debian-based OS, especially Arch. I am totally able to make it stable, but do I want it? why do I bother to do so?
It's not like I don't thinker at all. My windows machine is full setup with Chocolatey + Powertoys + Windows Terminal combo. The problem is that what I thinker is supposed to be something to `Enhance` my experience, not to make something unusable to work.
Very true
As a QA tester for a software company developing on Linux, I have to use it at work daily, and have been doing so for 9 years now, and yet, I still suck at daily driving it. The fucking scattershot nature of a gigatrillion different distros and package managers and how some software works differently if you just install it through yum or apt versus compiling it yourself makes it so that if you haven't actually internalized how the system works on a protocol level, you'll never know why something doesn't work, and so you go to google and you try to find an answer, and after a handful of condescending "why don't you just" answers you find something that works, but even then you're just copying text in to a terminal and you won't understand what it did and 3 minutes later you don't remember what it even was. It's like speaking in a language you don't know by running everything through Translate, and the reason I'm really shaky with that language after 9 years is that in my day to day work duties, I don't get enough exposure to those problems that it could become second nature; I'd have to devote time to studying it, and I don't have that time during work so I'd have to study it on my own time. I'm a nerd, I've been in to computers my whole life, I like building them, I like hardware debugging, I like reading about new tech and I consume content about old tech as well as new and I find it interesting what a true linux guru can do on a computer, but I would still not feel like studying how to use linux like a developer on my off hours, and I would not consider linux on my home computer before I could do everything I can in Windows with just a mouse.
Our laziness to learn represents the biggest reason for the global human failure that is Microsoft / intel / nvidia / Alphabet world dominance
@@maxglushkov7969 some people are productive, you know?
@@maxglushkov7969 So basically all the big companies are at fault. Okay.
Agree with op here. If your focus while running Linux is to “run Linux” then you have incentive to learn the intricacies. But if you run Linux *because* of something else, like a particular creative software or something, then you’re too busy figuring that out to spend time learning about Linux. If your job is to build a house then you’re too busy building the house to understand how the motor in the drill was built. I really like learning the OS but it can’t just get in the way all the time, at some point there’s the thing you have to actually do that caused you to install the OS on the computer in the first place
@@maxglushkov7969 your comment went over a lot of heads here. i do agree that it's mostly laziness / lack of sufficient brain power
The strange paradox of Linux: it is both seemingly extremely popular for developers and yet developers don't want to write for it.
I think it’s that there really isn’t a business case in writing for it(for consumer apps, obviously the server eco system is healthier.) So your entirely reliant on people just doing it for non profitable reasons. Despite the size of the open source community, most programming is done for profit.
@@NickSteffen yup
@@NickSteffen the thing is: if devs write for other OS-es, then why do they keep using Linux themselves?
@@leonniceday6807 I mean most devs I know, use windows or Mac OS though. There’s all sorts of non-dev software like office that you need to run on a work PC that usually do not support Linux. Coming up with workarounds is huge time sink.
Most companies have administrative needs for their workstations that are difficult to meet with Linux on PCs. Linux requires a lot of fiddling to make work. Now that can be fun on one’s home
Computer, but when your trying to do work it just gets in the way.
Additionally Many IDEs do not support Linux (like visual studio and Xcode).
The WSL emulator that lets you run Linux apps in windows works great but the linux reverse variants are not nearly as good.
capital needs capital sherlock, its a feedback loop
"Valve will save the Linux Desktop."
Steam Deck has entered the chat.
+1
Sadly I'm still worried Linux might hurt the Steam Deck. Props to Valve for trying. But the product is going to be a Jack of all Trades and master of none. Linux has only ever worked well when dedicated to master something. Do you see the contradiction?
@@Hyper-Reality yeah can install windows on it anyway, what's the problem?
@@Hyper-Reality linux is good for gaming tbh since we have proton now unlike when the steam console released also valve is working with eac and stuff to try and get their anticheats to work
In a few years time I fully expect the Steam hardware survey to show a much higher percentage of Linux users than the 0.86% it has now.
The best part about Linus speaking publically like this is that it's the total opposite to those corporate product launches, he shares everything, concerns and all, and hopes for things to change. He's not financially motivated to keep everything hush hush while they exploit gullible consumers, and he cares very much about his software and what it can do.
It's very refreshing how once you strip away the profit motive you start talking about people like they're actual human beings.
Even as a power user I spent a month trying to figure out why firefox is launching so slowly. It turned out it was xdg-desktop portal which some random app installed which changed some interface.
So he is spot on.
Congratulations you chose that package without knowing what it did. Forehead
@Weneedaplague well that's the issue with linux....there are too many distros... that's like if windows released seven version of windows 11.... different distros.
xdg-desktop-portal is sadly such garbage and because of Flatpak it is part of more and more applications slowing everything down even further.
@@Krushak8888they… do. Windows Home, Home N, Professional, Professional N, Professional for Workstations, Education, Enterprise, Enterprise LTSC - I could go on honestly.
@@Weneedaplague I am glad you know what every random package installed as an dependency of other packages does.
Linus is quite spot-on. As I see, many of the Linux users are power users and not general users. I assume developers mainly interact with these power users. These power users may not have difficulties compiling stuff, tweaking complicated configs, etc. They may even enjoy spending time with things like that.
But, for a *general user*, that is not going to work. Years ago, I was considering switching from Windows to Linux (Ubuntu of course) as my primary desktop. Audio subsystem was glitchy and lagging, completely unsuitable for music production, at least out of the box. I'm not really into building the instrument, I just want to play it. Graphic subsystem with fairly recent, high end video card was crashing and rendering garbage out of the box on a fresh install. Not sure how much googling, forum discussions with arrogant people, tweaking/debugging/compiling would have been needed, but, it does not matter. I was just looking to see if Linux could be a desktop alternative for me, just a general user in that context.
If anyone interested how I solved the problem: I bought a Mac. Even though it's not perfect, I can do everything I wanted and needed, out of the box. I like Linux a lot, for what it is good for. And that is not the desktop. If Linux worked as well as Windows or Mac on desktop out of the box, I would not mind paying the same amount of money for it - maybe even more.
Please note, the above are my personal experiences and opinions as a general end user, not professional opinions. Just saying before anyone would try to jump into an argument of any kind. Because who knows nowadays...
YES! Ok, it's great to hear from another producer:
I'm a DSP coder and music addict and Linux is completely unuseable for that stuff, and anybody who disagrees is willfully ignorant. I spent two hours tweaking jack before giving up and going back to Windows. Don't get me wrong, I'm wearing the Tux for absolutely every event I can go to, but for audio processing, video and photo, basically anything artistic, and gaming, Linux is nearly completely useless. Linux drives my day to day, I do my homework and take all my tests on it, browse and code, but for music production, it suffers.
The thing is, linux is FASTER than windows and OSX, it supports older hardware and it's more lightweight. Linux has the TOOLS to become the primary OS for all of these things, yet windows and osx continue to dominate. It's the double issue of, if you seek less power-use oriented people and Linux manages to take over a larger share of consumer space, linux loses out on the one thing that makes it so great in the first place: security. With more users, hackers target the linux kernel, which by the nature of its open source design is probably really easy to do some damage on.
This is a huge issue. I wish it was easier to reconcile with.
@@howieclark9219 I agree with the first half, I remember too playing around with Jack and finally giving up.
The second half of your comment is not something I'd be worried about though. Not because it would not happen, but because all the ways one could compromise a Linux box or mess with users are still there. Just because Linux is not that popular as Win/Mac for the average users, does not mean those issues do not have to be addressed. This may come as awkward from a security professional, but in some ways, Linux having that popularity and being exposed to even more attacks could only improve Linux further, and ultimately provide more protection. Especially, because with all that popularity would come even more security researchers looking into finding and addressing the issues. What we do have to worry about is inefficient/nonsense recommendations to mitigate issues, because those are going to be quite difficult to get rid of.
Yep, and this is the main reason I just don't even bother with Linux on the desktop anymore. All my servers are Debian, my special purpose machines (like my arcade cabinet PC) are Arch, but on the desktop just no.
I recently helped out my brother with setting up a website on one of my server, I initially wanted him to do it all on his own so he would learn what I learned, I told him "get your Ngix server running and I'll help you when you need it"
I quickly learned that Linux "how to guides" are even targeted at power users, I was remotely altering his configs trying to explain why he couldn't do this or why I did that just to make it run. most of the tutorials are lacking critical information like symlinks, or simply telling the "end user" that it can happen that a file does not exist simply create that file and carry on.
At the end of the day, I have six missed calls, but he is still daily driving Linux and trying to learn :)
Linux is not too hart to learn, but "opensource" developers need to learn how to make it idiot proof, that's the only reason Microsoft and Apple rule the consumer market.
I basically agree, if it were purely a technical issue I would use Windows on my desktop, but I still think it's important to have a free software alternative so that's why I still use Linux on my desktop - and besides who actually knows what data Windows is sending back to MS? We need the code in the open so it can be scrutinised.
i love how this video exposes a one the biggest flaws in any linux environment, compatbility, it is absolutly insane to me how a piece of software targeted orignaly to ubuntu 20 or whatever completly breaks down on 21 because some dev said "well fuck it, thats old, lets go with the new", say what you will but at least that ms got it right, you can get something writen in windows xp/2000 and still runs on windows 11.
It's the only way linux could accelerate without having N*1000 developers.
@@timmurphy5541 that's 1. A lazy response. 2. Covering for the fact that seemingly every individual linux dev knows best and doesn't play well with others.
I've lost count of the linux-based projects I've been using that have fractured in to two different parts and apps just for spite and failure to coorporate.
@@FrobergDK lazy is criticizing people whose work you use for free.
@Clarissa 1986 congratulations on the laziest response ever ;)
@Clarissa 1986 you work so hard at your disdain - nice to see you can work at something!
That one, poor Debian maintainer, got his distro *absolutely* handed to him. Ow! XD
The more I watch of Linus, the more I like him. He is a no-BS guy, has a clear vision and has no hesitation roasting the whole room if it need be. xD
to be fair this is 7 year old, but I don't use Debian so I can't judge
I love today's Debian!
There is a fine line between being no-BS/not being afraid of roasting the room if needed and being a huge asshole.
It is well documented that for a long, long time Linus was actually quite far on the wrong side of that. Although reportedly he's much better now and I hope he keeps the productive elements of it.
@@TAP7a Yeah, people are such snowflakes today that being open about something is considered being an "asshole"
The level of confidence needed to roast debian @debconf is abysmally amazing 😂😂😂
well he IS the guy behind linux if anybody can roast debian at debconf its him
Yeah he’s the original Mack daddy whatcha gonna do
@@attilatorok5767 yeah he is the guy behind Linux, the kernel, but nothing really more. Just like a motor engineer is not a cockpit designer, Linus has no competence in OS, in distribution, in Desktop or in UI.
This is an old conf, he was mocked for this speech during that time.
YES. TOTALLY DATED CONTENT and increasingly invalid critique.
@@PainterVierax I'm pretty sure engine builders drive cars too. Actually you don't even need to be an engineer at all to tell if a car is no fun to drive. He wasn't mocked, it was more of a 253 message thread on lists-debian-private where they were so butthurt they tried to permanently ban him from the conference. Many people there were saying Microsoft must have gotten to him and it must be a ploy to destroy FOSS from the inside. Absolutely insanity. Outside of debian-private, most people agreed with Linus. It's becoming slightly less relevant today, but still valid. If you actually enjoy using it on a desktop outside of a VM, thanks, somebody has to if it's ever going to get better
First time I tried using Linux as my desktop OS was back in the mid 90s, it was nearly there, just needed a few more drivers. Last time I tried to use Linux as my desktop OS was probably around 2015 and it was nearly there just needed a few fixes...
It's simple! You just need to install some source files, edit the makefile, recompile, and then...
@@nbarbettini eh, I just switch to another distro and hope.
But yeah, you might have to compile stuff yourself,
but I dunno, it's always been that way. I like his vision though.
One binary to rule them all!!
I am kind of in the middle between a "non-technical person" and a "savvy tech guy". I know some programming languages, but I am not super enthusiastic about Linux and its distro. I used Ubuntu for some years. It was alright, felt like "normal computer stuff" most of the time. Only downside: any day I decided to do a "new thing" on my computer, it would consume an entire day of trying to figure out what was not working. It felt like there was never a plug-n-play solution available for some reason
@@noanyobiseniss7462Now that's a name I haven't heard in a long time...
@@nbarbettini 😂
This is EXACTLY my experience every time I've tried Linux since 1997, it's far too hard to add an application outside of what's provided or available from the vendor, everyone wants you to compile a program, that's fine if you're a programmer and understand what to do but for 99.5% users including advanced users it's a ridiculous notion. I'm pro Linux but I accept it for what it is.
Or extract some tarballs or whatever the shit. I remember having to do that to try to install a simple browser.
Even as a programmer I don't want to mess with figuring out how to build someone else's stuff.
@@sa3270Came here to say this. It's hard even with directions lol
I'm a total dumbass and I have no problem with a little bit of compiling. I greatly prefer messing with GCC than Visual Studio. Maybe it's just you, bro...
@@sa3270 , same. Software developer, electrical engineer, and even have Windows and Linux network admin experience... and I just don't want to bother with Linux for personal use.
I didn't realize it at the time, but when in 2016 I had to make binary packages for, like, 5 different distros (only one specific version of each) I suddenly found myself in this very problem. At the time, I also made one package for windows (ran on xp and 7). Move forward some 5 years, the windows package still installs, and the software still runs, on Win 10. None of the Linux packages run on the newer versions of the distros. And the program was very, very, VERY simple that most of you can do a better version of it in your sleep. I can't imagine how much harder this would be if the software were to have any kind of complexity!
Incredible as 7 years have past and we haven't solved this issue. He says it just right in the beginning: Build one binary and it runs on windows. Build one binary and it runs on Macos. On linux... you have so many choices that are not universal... even the the flatpacks, appimages, snaps are only new mediums developed with the same restrictions that the freedom of choice brings, and forces us to forget: Natural monopolies exist for a reason. They are Natural: You DON'T have a multiplicity of Electricity providers laying infrastructure at your place: You have one that maintains the network, and sells it as wholesale to any other company who wants to use that (at least here in Europe, so on modern markets). RPM, DEB, Flatpaks, snaps, appimages (these last, better technical solutions) are part of the problem, they are not the solution, they are too many solution parts. Some of the Linux distros don't even come with the snapstore preinstalled or you have to allow additional repos along the way... trying to say to a scubba diver: "man... go into the store and add the repos you want so you enable additional software stores". Hw will just ask WTF?. in windows I get an EXE directly from a recognizable store (Where I bought the software) and clickit once. In Macos... I just drag it to a folder and it is installed. In linux... I have to figure out what is the format that I should install (when a software company goes into the pain of maintaining all the packages), and the choice list doesn't make the differences obvious.
@Mike Bee Yes.
Im flattered youtube thinks i would understand this in any real way.
Me 2
It is an old clip Linux has improved and Debian seems to be replacing Ubuntu. Yes Debian is slow as a glacier for new releases but it is very stable. I love Debian as it is rock solid.
@@BRBTechTalk what do u suggest ? debian or fedora?
im programmer and also gamer
i was using ubuntu for a while but i remember i had some kind of issue with the wifi and sound drivers so i switched to windows and im still using windows right now. but now i decide to try different distro and after some researches i choosed debian and fedora but i dont really know which one to choose from
@@sasha2209 I'm more of an arch guy so I can't say one or the other, but I'd say just flip a coin. Agonizing over the differences isn't going to get you anywhere. It's not a commitment, you can always switch. You'll learn a lot about what you like and don't.
@@spicy8047 Thank you. i tried to install debian but i couldnt install it properly so i deleted it and installed fedora but i didnt like fedora so i uninstalled fedora and installed ubuntu again but i dont really like ubuntu since i was using ubuntu before for a while.
now i'll try to install debian again to see if i like it or not
The general sentiment expressed is valid beyond Linux. I loved worked on an embedded bare-metal project a while back, but I was very dismayed with my coworkers' flippant disregard for consistent interfaces between boards. We didn't have published APIs, but every time anyone changed an interface on one board, I had to recompile and re-flash all the boards it connected with. Major bother.
Indeed.
I now appreciate this at a whole new level once I
a) had a Linux laptop that just won't bloody work out of the box
b) maintained a cross-platform library, for which the hardest platform to build is Linux
c) read about how windows bent over backwards writing application-specific patches into windows due to obscene code in said applications, just so users won't have to deal with it
Crap application is objectively superior to no application.
Appimages are what unity Dev's and many industry leaders including Adobe substance use
It's because it's not just a container like snap or flatpak but it also takes cares of system libraries.. like using blender with CUDA for example that is not possible on flatpak due to hard containerisation. Appimages can see system libraries, it runs on all distros and it's easier for a normal user to install run and uninstall as it's just 1 file.
That's why Linus torvalds commended appimages years later after this interview, this one is soo old.
I prefer AppImage over flatpak/snap.
@@gentooman Yes, I just hope it would be possible to install them by just drag and dropping them on a software folder like on an apple device. I thought about develloping a small program to do that thus, it should not be that hard.
He's not god
@@laurentvj app image launcher exists!
@@xAffan name few pls
He nailed it dead on the head. Even though this was many years ago, it *still* is a problem today.
Distro devs, take note from this man.
the man who made it a problem in a first place
@@MarioDarnadi He can't control people, so no.
@@MarioDarnadi He wrote the kernel and made it free. He can't control that the distro people can't agree on the most basic of things. There should be a single standard way of doing package distribution/installation not 2 dozen but these guys won't get in a room and agree.
The problem is most of these folks are old neckbeards, I'm an old neckbeard so don't start, who don't even think distros should exist. They are used to downloading source code and doing builds and they don't understand why every user can't just run make scripts like they do. So they have put the minimum effort into distros instead of the amount of effort needed to make them good. As long as these "all software should be free" sorts are the senior engineers at these Linux companies they will continue to put out products that wouldn't get past code review at professionally run outfits.
@@MarioDarnadi what??????? no
@@MarioDarnadi He never made it a problem. He created an "idea" of a brain for which Linux could operate from, it was free-as-in-beer-greedy dev's who ran with it, forked the fuck out of everything that uses the kernel.
"they update glibc and everything breaks", I feel that
Just had to fix my daughter's desktop because something updated and glib broke.
@@Belboz99 thats why i hate rolling distros
There are reasons why Android uses bionic instead of glibc, not the least of which is derivation from OpenBSD's libc so it had been more thoroughly audited for security vulnerabilities. Still, Android has tons of holes, just imagine how many more it would have had it stuck with glibc.
4:10 Well guess what just happened this week! The fact that it's completely true (and the incredible foresight about Valve) after 7 damn years is absolutely unbelievable.
For those wondering, glibc updated to 2.36, and everyone using any games with EAC just completely broke and cant play.
Could you explain this for a noob like me?
@@facialhair4680 Well, it's been a month and it's been "fixed" (not really) but the short of it is, glibc is a code library for C. And C is one of, if not the, most used coding languages for operating systems and system applications.
What specifically happened is, a feature relating to secure cryptography was supposed to be depreciated, supposedly for several years even, and programs should've been be using a newer feature. The issue is that it wasn't marked as depreciated. So when the update came to remove the feature entirely, well they simply ceased to work.
So when people using Linux for gaming, because Valve is pushing the Steam Deck which is running an Arch distro, did their updates, any game that has Easy Anti Cheat (Epic Games' anti cheat solution) implemented in it, the games could not even start anymore because EAC was using glibc's old but not marked as depreciated function.
And because EAC and Epic are fucking notorious for not listening to consumers (and have made their basically malware level "anti cheat" work on Linux for the sole reason that Valve is pushing it), the easy solution was for glibc to just put it back in. And hopefully mark it properly this time.
The joke that Linus does is that whoever or whatever team is maintaining glibc has had the exact same kind of issues since... basically forever. And it's still happening 7 years later.
@@facialhair4680 Linux is a festering sinkhole there you go one-sentence
@@hankkingsley9300 Oh look another Troll account
Seems like games are fine..... You don't have to upgrade a package either...... Just install an older version if you did update something that doesn't work.
He's so right about binaries. The Linux compatibility we complain about is a direct result of negligent distro developers trying to exclude it from the others.
totally agree!
Actually all started with Debian not accepting rpm as the package format....
@@Souls4Roca Have you ever looked at the mess of RPM from the early Red Hat days? Debian made the right choice for the time.
These days we have many distros and many versions of those distros. It doesn't make sense any more to expect developers to learn packaging for every distro and adapt it to each new release. At the same time there can still be a better solution than distributing huge static binaries.
@@epakai "At the same time there can still be a better solution than distributing huge static binaries." There isn't and there never will be. Perfect is the enemy of good.
@@epakai Better solution: Do it like flatpak but native. What's the problem with just let the user have 2 or more verisons of the same lib on the system?
the main issue is the elitism. if a non tech user say how do i do this wheres the button someone says just learn the terminal just fix the code yourself. the average user is not capable of that.
nor would many users be willing to do even if they knew how.
More to the point, the average user has better things to do with their time than muck around with a broken build environment, that is only broken because somebody “fixed a bug” without understanding the implications.
@@troglokev i think the average linux user dont understand how hard things are. sure i can google and copypaste a getapt string. my grandma or mom cant ctrl c v they dont know what a terminal is. i cant explain a sentence of code to get a package to them
in windows to install u send a link then u click next 4 times that they can do and i can explain over the phone
Even if I can I am just too lazy for that.
The fact that there are different versions of programs for different versions of Linux is so terrible.
That reason alone will never allow Linux to compete.
A Linux program needs to work and run on any version of Linux.
That requires cooperation.
@@alexxx4434 I disagree, so I will make my own fork of this thread /s
But Linux doesn't compete? You all need to get out of your corporate mindsets, Linux has nothing to gain.
People here develop software so that others benefit, Microsoft does it for profit.
There's competition between Windows and MacOS but absolutely zero competition in the Linux space because there's 0 money involved.
@@l4kr said like this it means it has 0 value - it's a hobbyist product for hobbyist people.
@@l4kr and so you think having no competition is good in any shape or form? Competition drives inovation and progress. It's the incentive needed for makings things evolve. If there was no profit in developing Adobe Photoshop, it would suck, like Gimp does.
The fact that it takes coming from Linus himself to convince anyone of these points is the exact reason why it will never change. You mention any of this to anyone fanboying over a distro and they won't have it.
and that room was full of debian fanboys thats why nobody laughed at the things he said lol
The Billionaire who choose not to make money
he is an artist... its the art that he does... he isnt after money.....
*He is a God*
never thought about him as a billionaire, but damn you're right, he is Nikola Tesla of programmers
@@pavel9652 he is also creator of git
we have so incredibly much to thank this guy for
@@fuzzywzhe The thread is not about Zuckerberg though.
That common sense of “bless and curse” is a huge false dilemma. The benefits of Linux arise despite the lack of standardization, not because of it. I mean, just look at the kernel itself: the most widely used, most flexible piece of software in the Linux world, used everywhere from the kitchen sink to spacecrafts, and yet it has the userspace rule that allows an average guy in a garage to create a huge product because he knows that by the time he deploy it, the kernel won’t break so that he doesn’t need to start all over again. That’s the difference between coding for the world and coding for yourself (i.e., massaging your “crazy” ego) that Linus brilliantly addressed in this video.
The plural of spacecraft is spacecraft.
@@stargazer7644 Thank you. I still make these silly mistakes when writing in English. Comments like yours certainly help me a great deal.
Hey, I just changed a few laws, and changed a few prices of stuff in stores, so let's just re-build the society from scratch? Won't take long!
Tbh, that's how average voters interprets new laws tbh
sounds like a revolution
Windows won't ever renovate for that reason. OSX won't. Linux distros are the only ones in a position to move everything forward. So if they won't for the sake of pandering to people who are inclined toward the first two anyway, what the fuck is the point of progress?
@@KOTYAR1 SLIPPERY SLOPE
Like ppl say. Appimage. Linux is all about innovation. That is why at the end of the day you find plenty of users even though marketing ppl say there should be no one there.
Rebuilding and recompiling is slow only because computers are still slow. Look up for computational ram , really old concept. Asynchronous cpu with computational ram is like power efficient NUMA system. Hard to imagine how much will change once hardware will arrive, and recompiling stuff will be basic benchmark ...
Linus is spot on. People who are technical like me already spend too much time at their sweaty desks breaking their backs. Nobody wants to spend a second more than necessary on something like fixing a dependency to install an application that on Mac or Windows takes two clicks. Not because we are not technical and can’t fix it but because we are technical and know how avoidable this is and what a time waste fixing the mess over and over is.
I feel the same way about pretty much everything coming from the Linux/open source world. Managers like Linux and open source because they believe it's all tried and tested and reliable... and it's cheap. Yeah, but the headaches begin immediately and never end. Square peg in round hole stuff. The hours I've wasted trying to get open source stuff working.... OMG I don't even want to think about it. We even replaced our Windows desktops with Linux ones for a time (to save money). What a monumental failure that was.
Windows and MacOS advanced very fast and the user experience and administration wasn't too complex. In the late 90's, it was games, hardware, and some apps that kept Linux off the desktop. But Macs and Windows both advanced a lot faster than I expected them too after Windows 2000 and OS X #1. Things also just plain work the majority of the time. Error handling and standard libraries are two big things that seem to be hard to get right on Linux that aren't issues on other operating systems. Now, they have gotten better in some aspects, but it still a lot of work if things break when installing new programs and still some hardware that doesn't work well in drivers and applications don't exist.
MacOS X had to kick Microsoft's backside for an entire decade before MS got their act remotely together
I sincerely TRIED to adapt to Linux several years ago, and after a year I gave up and went back to Windows. Saved me so much time and frustration to have things "just work" and the freedom to upgrade any application at any time without having to rely on the distribution team to make new versions "compatible" with the distro. I see in the comments many people saying things are better now. Regardless, I gave Linux a chance and it failed the most basic rule -- make things easy for the user who doesn't have a degree in programming.
I have used Linux as my main system for 6 years straight.
I ended up having a totally broken system 3 times after some totally standard official updates. But the thing I was fed up the most, is that I was fussing with it all the time. Wasted so many weekends trying to get very basic things working.
The major flaw is that everyone is operating from their own little island and constantly pointing fingers at each other.
So for example when somebody installs a distro and all of a sudden the taskbar doesn't work anymore, one might think to ask the devs of the distro.
But noooo, it's a separate module taken care of by a totally different person or team.
I even ended up with some bug were those separate dev teams blamed each other for not working. But the problem still wasn't resolved. Together with a culture to constantly patch things or use work arounds, instead of really dealing with the issue.
Which is extremely ironic, because you would expect this behavior with a big cooperation.
Go figure........
In the end this is also how Linux feels, a bunch of modules cobbled together. There is just no coherence at all.
I guess that's just what happens when you let people decide to do whatever they think is the right thing, instead of trying to point them all in the same direction.
@@outlaw8379 i have been using linux for over 20 years or so. Works rock solid for embedded systems as well as servers.
I only don't understand how someone could call 3 hours of coding an "easy fix"? Like me a lot of people simply don't have that time.
I need my computer for work so I can't effort to constantly have to fix things that are no problem with other operating systems.
It feels sometimes going back to the 90s that way. Although if I need to code so much anyway, I would rather get my good old Commodore.
@@outlaw8379 Oh, I tried. But the main problem with your statement is the idea that the user must adapt to the tool, when in truth, the tool needs to serve the user.
@@outlaw8379 OS / kernel. This type of nitpicking is what lies at the heart of the problem. I have no interest whatsoever in the internal workings of an OS. Linux is promoted as an OS, therefore the distributions need to provide a working OS with that flexibility you and everyone else promises..
@@outlaw8379 A quick online search using the keywords "linux" and "os" shows a LOT of places where Linux is promoted as an OS. Take a look at en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux, where it is clearly labeled as an OS.
On Windows I can just download an app and it will just run. On Linux there's always that extra long paragraph explaining blablabla nobody gives a shit about. That's why Linux fails, and because there's no thumbnail preview in the Browser's filepicker. Into the trash it goes.
Truth
>no preview browser file picker
Wait what? What Linux did you use?
I tried linux (Ubuntu and Mint). But for me as an end user (and most people are end-users without the technical knowledge) Linux was actually going from one technical problem to another. And spending lots of time to find the solution. The linux experience for an end user is solving problems. And then I found the solution that solved all these problems. A very simple solution that every end user understands: I switched back to my Mac :)
I trowed away the problem solving and replaced it with productivity. Most people who use a desktop are end users and choose Windows or Mac because you don't need all these Linux knowledge.
Idk what you're talking about...
Ever since I installed Linux on my moms computer I have never heard from her for technical issues.
@@l4kr That's possible, but I am talking about productivity. Not checking social media or light tasks. I'm talking about graphic design, professional illustration, music production, video editing. It's essential that these software keeps working fine too if you want to stay productive. And keeping these software working like it should wasn't always the case with Linux.
@@l4kr But your mom uses the OS as a host for the browser. For that, modern Linux distros can already be a formidable platform. For many power users with specific application needs, the story isn't so smooth. In the end, the computer needs to serve the human user and do so reliably. A working professional doesn't have hours to spare hunting down obscure driver issues, even if they're solvable with effort.
I used a couple of distros. Both in VMs and bare metal. The problem that I had was similar but that wasn't the main issue. I like solving problems. But what really gave me a bad experience was the elitism of Linux users and condescending feeling towards new users.
Linux in general is a type of OS that will run into problems because it is niche. So, you have to go to the forums and seek help from other users. So, that condescending tone puts people off.
@@al7422 agree linux is for peoples that likes solving problems
Been watching Linus Tech Tips dive into Linux and I appreciate this take from a dev perspective. From a fundamental standpoint Linux distros are not providing adequate solutions for their own developers to develop quickly and easily.
Listening to comments on their vids the desync between how a user should experience the use of their computer and how a person using xy or z distro is actually going about things should be.
First vid, there was an issue with the install of Steam -> The OS allowed Linus to uninstall his DE. But at least steam got installed?
Most users don't want to 'learn' an OS, they just want it to be their platform to allow them to do x, y or z.
Fun fact (if you are new): The guy on this video here is also named Linus and he is the creator and maintainer of Linux.
@@thingsiplay Hello! I am in fact new, and far out of my depths here ^^ Hearing that it's the creator/maintainer himself bringing up these issues is huuuuge!
@@ferinzz hello, I'm also new here, but not as this video. The video was recorded back in 2014
Also, please don't watch Linus Tech Tips on Linux. That guy doesn't know a single bit of what he's doing. Although it does give a perspective of "normal people" using Linux, and it sucks big time from that perspective, but technical people are doing kind of fine.
"Most people dont want to 'learn' an OS". Well thats inevitably going to be part of the process. Its impossible for a lifelong windows user to be capable of immediately being comfortable with an entirely different OS.
Linux is too fractured.
People associate a gui with an os. When people see windows, they know it's windows and how to use it, same with Mac os. But, Linux... There is no standard GUI, and to the average person every distro may as well be a different os.
Choice is a good thing, but too much choice can be overwhelming
Linux itself is not a complete operating system - it's just the kernel. I would call the distributions themselves separate operating systems, since they package the kernel as well as all the software required to get the system up and running and ready for work.
@@chlorobyte_projects oh, I don't think it's that difficult, just that the huge number of different distros, GUIs, and package managers would be confusing or overwhelming for average consumers
@@rhysmuir It's important to note that it isn't necessary to get the most perfect system initially. You can just land on the first distro you get by typing in "beginner friendly Linux", "lightweight Linux" or something similar. Most concepts are shared between distros, after all. You don't lose power, customizability or performance, except in a few edge cases.
@@chlorobyte_projects The thing is that for most ppl the OS is a means to an end, to the end on itself, so if they have to land on a "beginner friendly Linux" to start with a Linux journey, then the Linux ecosystem has already failed them.
@@diablo.the.cheater Who said it has to be a journey? Literally every distro comes with the advantages of not being as broken as Windows, being lighter and more controllable. You don't need the most perfect system to work efficiently, in fact, trying to find said "perfect system" when you don't have any issues in the first place is a waste of time.
Linux developers should unite and create a standard for building distros. I would put Linus in charge of it. He definitely knows and has the vision where this needs to go.
This is what freedesktop is. The problem is that they've a bad decision on how to organize packages.
Then the number of standards is gonna turn into (all the standards) + 1
Just target to Ubuntu and say fuck everything else.
Litterally Ubuntu is almost synonymous with Linux to your average dude.
I daily drive Ubuntu on my laptop and litterally I have NEVER had a single issue with it.
Sure I dont run games or anything on it, but litterally for the vast majority of school work and random shit, its perfect.
My entire highschool and elementayr uses linux for the laptops and even some desktops. Almost exclusively cus everythings on the internet anyways, and most programs that actually matter, run on linux aswell.
[insert XKCD comic about how there are now 14 competing standards]
Ubuntu sucks. Now debian... I can get behind that. (Which is what ubuntu is based on)
lol never gonna happen. These open-source maniacs will always be against each other and disagree with everything. We have appimages, flatpaks, snaps, fucking compiling from source...
Meanwhile Windows and MacOS are like "aight, let's make things just work"
Sadly, this talk could have been given twenty years ago. The details have changed but the fundamental bad practices have not.
About 30 years ago, when my then employer started to use Unix as a central supported OS rather than a niche player for workstation users, one of the advantages that was touted was that it was supremely configurable. It rapidly became clear that different versions (there were no more than half a dozen at the time, and they were mostly based on BSD or SysV) had decided to configure stuff slightly differently, which meant that nothing worked the same and porting apps - all written in C, all using the same libraries, all using make - was a hassle and a maintenance nightmare. It’s only got worse.
This video is actually from 7 years ago. This is a re-u/l.
And it could have also been given today. I genuinely thought it was recorded on the video's upload date (two months ago). The comments about SteamOS are very accurate and timely. I was very surprised to read the comments that said it was 7 years ago, since this is just as relevant and up-to-date today as it was back then. And sadly, I am not holding out hope that it will improve a decade from now either.
As a poor student I was using Linux (Debian, then Ubuntu) on my desktop. That was 17 years ago. Eventually moved to OSX when I was able to buy a Mac - mostly for the reasons Linus bring up. What Linus said 17 yrs ago was valid then and still is valid today. Same discussions were back then and same are now. It’s disappointing.
Linux is not in the hands of regular people because of the dependency on terminal. As soon as the user is forced into terminal to do something a GUI can do on Windows or Mac OS, then it's failed as an OS to a normal person.
i use manjaro and i don't use the terminal more than i used to use command prompt in windows. there are a million different distros, just use what suits your need and imo, pop os and manjaro are far more user friendlier than windows.
Anything that you might need to do in a terminal on the big Linux distros is the sort of thing you'd have to do in PowerShell in Windows, pretty much.
@@alanbourke4069 Sorry, but this is not true. I mean, it might technically be true as some things might be doable in the GUI. But looking up on google how to do / set / x something for linux is always the only generic answer for different distros. And this is terminal. So it might technically be correct. In practice I need the terminal a lot. Sometimes because I don't find the graphic way. Or there is just no matching software. Or if it is it needs to be compiled first and added to some startup file and need rights and be bound to a user and... yeah, possible, sure. It is a lot to much terminal on linux. Every time I have to use it. And this is really sad as Linux is a cool project and has a lot of plusses over Windows.
in some distros yes, but with the more user-friendly distros such as ubuntu or kubuntu, you have an app-store and really do not need to use the terminal
@@Fairyplay even with the app store you still need the terminal, the other day I installed Ubuntu on a 2011 pc and by some reason settings was totally not working, I just couldn´t change anything in the settings, the screen resolution, the screen turn off, nothing, everything just didn´t make any chance, lucky the solution was really easy, just delete the .config folder and other 2 that I don´t remember from the terminal and ready, not even had to reboot, but I showed that to a friend, and he told me that he would have sent the pc to tech service for that kind of "problem" let´s face it, Linux is just for Pc entusiasts and developers, regular people won´t understand terminal in their entire lifes
This video is already more than 9 years old
As someone who had to create a proprietary application to install on any Linux available from 10 years to present (back in 2014), I can attest to the sheer hell of getting that application to both build and install properly for all those distributions.
Eventually, I figured out how to do this without static linking, and to package for primarily Debian and RPG packaging systems (didn't bother with the others, but would have if we had a business reason to do so), without having to have a plethora of build systems, etc... and I have Torvald's insistence on not breaking user space to thank for this feat.
There are some distro or community driven solutions for this packaging, like flatpacks, snaps, etc. How well do these work to solve the problem? I mean they're advertised as single builds for cross-platform. Right now I've seen lots of projects shifting to building snaps and snaps sort of have dependencies packaged along with app itself I think
@@yashdeveloper9449 For my use case, though, I needed something that would install with minimal dependencies to the operating system. No docker, no snapd, etc. This said, my use case was pretty unique, and I wouldn't expect most people to have the kinds of requirements I had (basically, teaching tool for cyber security, allowing for a great variety of situations).
Honestly, I so glad that Flatpaks are now a rapidly improving cross-distro packaging solution. I hated them at first as XDG portals hadn't matured, but now it's way better and a developer only has to maintain one package release now.
Oh man, this was already one of the most satisfying videos I've ever seen, then he had to dial it up to 11 at 4:15.
I gave up years ago trying to argue with people about why this not just a pain in the ass, but a bad idea altogether.
I love that your name is gentooman and your profile picture is the Larbs Arch Linux man
Well, that just about sums up some of the end-user experiences of Linux. No documentation and the need to guess what is going on. The fact that there is a sign at the side that is titled DefConf14 and Value starting to support the Linux space is raised allows me to guess that this talk is now over 7 years old. Better documentation is always handy.
For asian languages, non-devian distros are abysmal. it's all messed. that's why I stick to Ubuntu.
And this is 8 years old.
Wow, this is bad. You could maybe try to help translation for your native language ?
@@willexco2001 rather rude
@@vrrdnt ???
@@willexco2001 he's not being rude. Asking people to contribute isn't a crime
@@vrrdnt I think you misunderstood Willex &Co
What is needed is an abstraction layer that applications can link to that doesn't change the calls but gets updated when the kernel changes. This will allow pre-compiled binaries to be made for multiple linux versions.
The actual solution is probably to write for Windows/Wine and target that instead. As in, your 'Linux' binary should probably just be a Windows binary, but one you've made sure works on Wine.
So Linux already has a "universal" abstraction layer called wine
Thank you Linus. When I was a young programmer, I used UNIX from ATT, so one would think I would have an easy time with LINUX. But every time I try to get a desktop going with LINUX, I can't get the applications going without having to screw around. I can't afford the time. This wouldn't happen if "binaries" were usable as he says. I give up.
while i dont disagree with him here, i think the core problem is more philosophic and economic: the software is created /by/ technical folk, who don't have the proper economic incentives to properly design and code for a non-technical user. open source is a fantastic software work-around to capitalism, however, programmers still exist under it, and so UI polish has always been sidelined. it took an infusion of money and guidance from several organizations (i think mark shuttleworth?) in order for it to finally approach the year of linux on the desktop, but these lingering problems linus highlights demonstrates the tremendous amount of work still to do. a single desktop minimal specification would be extremely useful for the platform.
I don't know much about Linux, but I am a Linux user (MX Linux) and I absolutely love it. It is so nice to have high performance and while utilizing minimal system resources. It does everything I need it to do, I game on it, I code on it, I use my computer as a learning tool very effectively. I couldn't be happier.
I'm very happy for you. I'm just like you, but on Manjaro. I wish there were more like us.
Can you really game on it? Wouldn't a huge subset of all games not run on linux?
@@alan5506 For the amount of gaming I do, It work very well. Mx linux comes with Steam preinstalled. I don't play many games but the game that natively run on Linux run pretty damn good. There are ways to get many more game to run on Linux as well but I Haven't explored that.
@@buttonman1831 Interesting. Thank you. Windows has the hegemony in the desktop os world and you can't really switch unless you are ready to give up a lot of programs you were using or perhaps just making your life much more complicated.
@@alan5506 I run Windows applications with Wine. The setup process for Wine is an absolute disaster with Google being the most useless piece of shit, but once you have it done, it works damn well. I can run GTAs as well as emulators and some desktop applications.
On the other hand, you'll encounter the programs that simply break and won't run properly at all. :/
2:46 he is right. distributions and their artificially inflated "individualism" is one big hindrance for linux market penetration.
Too few nerds in too many camps making stuff for *themselves* instead for *other people who do not want to deal with OS but actually intend to use the computer for something, as a platform.*
I just don’t have time or energy to deal with Linux. Simple as that. It’s like having finished college and then having to start in kindergarten.
I was thinking about that earlier today.
If that's a bug that people rely on, it is not a bug - it is a feature. Well.. this is a radical statement, let's put it like this.
A bug is simply when code behaves different from what was specified in the requirements. If you're building an API and you ship a bug and people start using your API, they'll start building software around your bug. This means they depend on your bug to perform the way it does in order for their application to behave correctly. Once you realize you've shipped a bug, it's too late since other people depend on it, which means you don't fix the bug, you change the requirements. You inform your users and tell them that the intended behavior will be implemented in the next version. This gives your users an opportunity to update their API-consuming code safely without having to break functionality. If you try to hotfix your bug while other people already depend on it, then people's apps will break, and depending on the situation, it can either be mildly frustrating or catastrophic. I'm guessing that's why Linus has his hard rule about not breaking userspace.
@@gentooman this is where Windows shines. You *can* run apps from decades ago. And while Mac isn’t as good, I know for a fact that Apple tunes the behavior of the system for big relevant apps like Photoshop. So - yes. While software engineers love progress if they are in control of the stack, they loath it when they are subjected to it.
@@droggisch Not entirely true. There's plenty of xp/7/vista apps that don't run on 10, even in compatibility mode. and don't even think about 95. Even big tech companies can only afford to support so much.
software engineers can (and usually do) make their own os, if they're that unhappy.
Ever wondered why the PHP function to escape a mysql-query is called "mysql_REAL_escape_string();"?
Yeah..
As an embedded programmer I have VM's on a Windows platform running Debian which I use as development environments and it really frustrates me that it only takes a small number of weeks before an update is released by Debian which breaks everything. Resulting in the need to forego updates and sticking with a particular release for the dev environment/tool sets and defiantly for the target system.
6:00 - This is the guy who responds to your Reddit post. Not in English, but in python.
def response(comment):
if not type(comment) == python:
return "I do not understand you"
else:
return str(response)
Nah, he would do it in C or C++
200 IQ right there lol
Smart man. He better live forever.
Besides the fragmented software distribution infrastructure (even amongst distro-agnostic systems like AppImage) and the lack of computers with Linux preinstalled (at least ones accessible to the layperson), another thing that probably prevents more people from trying out Linux is the sheer freedom of choice, with all the distributions with different package managers and different desktops. With Windows and Mac you get freedom from choice. The amount of choice you get with Linux probably scares a lot of people off.
When i first saw docker, i thought this is the natural way a distribution should be build: everything but the core just runs in containers, and if something is not needed anymore, the images will be deleted without a trace. And developers just build one container which will run anywhere cause it is self-contained.
But other solutions seam to be preffered
I remember reading a blog post by Poettering (found it: "Revisiting How We Put Together Linux Systems"), which had some interesting ideas regarding packages and dependencies.
With computing power and hardware resources becoming cheaper and more efficient, there seems to be majorly obvious benefits to containerization. What is the point of trying to manage dependencies when you have 1 TB of local storage, an 8 core i7 with hyperthreading, and 16 GB of RAM? All to save what? Hard drive space and some RAM? While losing out on stability, security, interoperability, and just overall user friendliness along the way. It just makes no sense.
Desktop Linux is still a "tool" rather than a "user experience".
I think the latest GNOME and eOS is pretty close though.
Use tools, don't be a tool.
And when the "tool" requires a bunch of work every time a change is made to the application you're working on, it becomes an inefficient tool. I use Linux for the performance and stability when required. But other than that, I wouldn't touch it with a stick. Don't see the need to put in hours fixing applications just so I could avoid using something else that would more than suit my needs.
1980 called and asked for their video camera back.
It was an open-source raspberry pi camera. lol
Every single university has a camera like this in the conference hall
I mean the part about valve kind of came true
Not really: Valve uses Proton for Linux, and its actually pretty epic. You don't exactly need 15 billion binaries, if a game doesn't work on a certain linux distro, it can always just use Proton.
@@Lachrymogenic so basically valve did come up with a solution? Isn't that what I just said?
@@RamkrishanYT No? You didnt really say anything at all, and your comment seems as if you're trying to turn it into an argument. Your comment was vague as it could be interpreted that you said that valve did make 15 billion binaries for linux, but it could also be interpreted that they came up with their own solution, despite Linus' main point. Your next argument to this reply (if you are trying to turn it into an argument) would probably be along the lines of "maybe if you paid attention to the video I wouldnt have to explain" but if anything that would make you sound ignorant. The most likely response would probably be something along the lines of "woah woah bro calm down I wasn't trying to start an argument" or "idk what you're talking about" or worst case scenario, another backhanded insult.
All of the things I have just said are indirect interpretations, based off of the vague passive aggressiveness of your replies based on your questioning. In fact you could have just said "Yeah, they made proton instead of making loads of binaries" or just a simple agreement in general, but you had to point out the fact that "Isnt that what I just said?" As if it adds something to the conversation, despite the fact you gave little context, but the video to even begin with. In fact, you said "kind of came true" which the "kind of" makes it even more vague as to what you're talking about.
My point is: no, but if that is what you said then I'm sorry because I may have misunderstood or misinterpreted your comment, and in efforts to not start an argument, I have decided to address all the points you could bring up.
Admittedly, this reply is pretty stupid but ironically it is 4 am right now and being tired makes me somehow care more about the wording of UA-cam comments.
Just have a nice day, I suppose.
@@Lachrymogenic I said "kind of came true"
Did valve kind of create a way where they don't recompile the games for each and every distro and package them seperately? I think yes.
Now if you still disagree about it then cool, no point in arguing.
@@RamkrishanYT I will keep my disagreement, as "kind of" still does not evaluate or explain your actual interpretations. If you want to actually talk about it you could bring up sources from Valve News and updates etc, but instead you just say, "I think so" or "kind of" which can be interpreted as you do not actually know the validity of your own beliefs.
To put it simply, instead of saying vague responses like "Kind of" and "I think" you could talk more about Proton, its pros and its cons, how it is set to achieve fixing the issue and how there are still some problems that hold it back, like bugs, anticheat, etc.
It makes for a great conversation, but instead you turn statements into questions for no apparent reason.
We both agree this does not have to be an argument so we should turn it into a conversation instead, the disappointing reality is that you seem to be disinterested in the idea of a long and continued conversation by using indecisive connotations, which may include "Maybe" if you decide to reply further against the idea of a conversation.
Indecisive connotations should only be used when referring to the future of Valve and their solutions for linux. As of now, Valve ARE doing a pretty good job with their SteamPlay and Proton tools, as they are creating ways for Linux Systems to play windows binaries under a compatibility layer. But all is obviously not perfect, as with anticheat being a major issue in their and our path.
It shouldnt be "I think valve is doing something" because they are doing something. It's ok if you dont know anything, just dont act like you do know anything. Despite the fact you never said you did or did not know anything at all, your comment was indecisive.
Linux has this advantage when deployed to users by admins: Once set up, it tends to rot much less than Windows.
But the library hell is a real problem.
False
windows fixed library hell long ago with the side-by-side service. basically every library that gets installed by programs gets an isolated compartment, not overwriting any other library in the system.
Windows doesn't "rot" any more. I can't remember reinstalling windows for performance issues since windows 8.
@@FrobergDK Windows absolutely still performance rots. It's not as bad as it once was, but now there is also bug rot that wasn't there before. As in, things will subtly start breaking because of updates, and you will get bizzare bugs over time.
Stuff like your keyboard not being recognized on boot unless you unplug it and plug it back in once you are on the login screen. Your default microphone randomly switching, causing a variety of issues with applications that use your mic. Randomly turning on in the middle of the night for no apparent reason. Things disappearing from the search menu, like it keeps adding programs to a search blacklist. If you installed Windows 10 back when it was free to switch from Windows 7, about a year ago the updater broke and now Windows doesn't complete updating after the reboot step of installing an update.
That last one, I found the correlation with when you first installed Windows 10 because everyone in my family who installed it back then, and every one of my friends who I've talked to about this has that exact issue.
None of the bugs I've mentioned seem to be acknowledged by Microsoft. I've tried reporting them many times with the tool they include for that purpose, and I've never received a reply about it, and updates have never fixed any of these strange issues.
When you reinstall from scratch, all these problems disappear for a while.
@@lobsterbark Well I am only basing my opinion on running the same basic OS since windows 7.. and maintaining and updating 5.500 endpoints running Windows 10.
I'm simply not seeing what you're seeing.
For win7 it was most assuredly a thing.
Isn't this from DebConf 14? i.e. 2014? 6+ years ago?
And nothing has changed
He speaks the truth. Thank you for sharing.
2:35 "Compile one binary and have it work, preferably forever and preferably across all of the Linux distributions."
Seems like the promise made by Java so many eons ago.
I would personally prefer to write in 100% pure Java than anything else, and just have it work everywhere.
well the jvm is pretty cool in a certain set of circumstances, but java is a godawful language. clojure is really nice
Java is like Communism. It's theoretically perfect solution but it failed in practice for many reasons. When I see bigger Java software, it almost always comes with a custom commercial build of JVM and it refuses to run under OpenJRE (it would simply deadlock or complain about missing classes). A graphical UI made in Java often has bad font rendering and looks weird if run together with other apps using the native UI. Please no more Java. Maybe fix dependency hell by creating "standard" frameworks like Mac frameworks with API stability guarantees or something like that.
I think you forgot to mention win32.
@@-..-_-..- Java is not that bad, much cleaner than JavaScript.
@@bltzcstrnx i mean yeah, low bar lol
He is right. I dropped the Linux desktop in 2009 and never looked back. Since then MacOS and Android have been my working horses for personal needs.
this happened to me. I struggled and struggled with Mint. most recently thought I had a platform then did an update and my monitor intermittently won't work any more....
Prior to that I thought to network and found hassles there to my great surprise.
I've given up on it.
It took me two weeks to try to get a printer to work with linux
The problem with linux desktop is there are two many people trying to put their own spin on how they think stuff should be. If the community cooperated entirely on making the one single distro that could be used by everyone with ease then you would have a lot better chance. You don't have that instead you have a thousand different versions because everyone thinks their way is the right way. You have some people that are way to Fing prideful of what they have made and refuse to change or are scared if they do then hell we can't simply update the last version or some garbage. Some times it is just better to break the hell away from the past and cut ties with it and move on to a better solution and forget backwards compatibility or trying to upgrade it.
As for package systems that's a stupid band-aid on a compound fracture. Your biggest issue is attracting proprietary software developers. Not all package systems will work for that. What you need if this is the route that is take one solution just one that works for installing anything and everything and it needs to be part of the core system on all distros. That way you build and package it one time and it works.
Damn right. Too many fucking Distrobutions.
Okay but there's legitimate reasons for this.
You cannot compare a source-based vs a binary-based distro.
You cannot compare a static-release, stable distro vs a rolling, unstable distro.
You cannot compare a "just-works-ootb" distro vs a "DIY" distro.
etc.
You can mix-and-match most of these to get as many combinations as you'd like.
... And then there's the 40% of the distro-family-tree that's just various reskins of debian&ubuntu
@@stevanmiladinovic4007 even the it just works distros don't work lol
Microsoft is allowed to disown all Linux distros by military force like they killed Ian Murdock of Debian Linux and embraced it in Windows 10. People are actually happy with Microsoft stealing everything like Windows now has Linux in it.
Dear Doctor, i've many problems as versionitis, brokenitis, helldependencitis, unavailabilitis, faultitis, unresponsivitis, slowitis, etc. What kind of medicines have i to take?
a hammer and start over
delete system32
mount something else - like winedows knaowledge -the truth abaout linoux
New distro.... always new distro ..
Type a bunch of commands on the terminal and hope that it works or go look at the docs /s
Love this man. To the point and blunt.
The problem is "oversmart"developers. People who think of the rest of us as "plebs". Come of your high horses and actually listen and watch how ordinary people use computers
Nah. That's not the problem. Most things "the plebs" will think of are not new to devs.
The problem us just that Linux devs don't want Linux to be what an average computer user would want it to be. It's a fundamental conflict of interests. Many devs think it's a good thing that Linux has a dozen package managers. They think that is a feature. Same with the Window manager. The shell. For the average user that flexibility is the source of innumerable complications.
Those two mindsets will forever be at odds and are fundamentally irreconcilable.
The Linux community is simply not capable of making a desktop OS. Unless they are willing to throw out the flexibility they so highly value and standardize, that will not change.
@@a5cent I would agree to disagree here. Yes indeed devs have interests that conflicts with the average users need for ease of use. And we have many ways to do the same thing. But that doesnot mean there is no standardization. The unix world is rife with standards like posix. We always understood that without standards it is very difficult for using computers as a collaborative productivity tool.
Take Windows for example. It is also not that standardized based on your definition! The settings part of windows 11 is a nightmare now with old and new twined together. And the move of windows to bring more power to the command line using powershell is another example. Power users are there every where. When I was working on Sun machines in late 90's which was the haven of "power users", it had a user interface ideology far different from the windows user of that day. Linux Desktops far near to the windows desktop today than then. We have distros specifically to simplify the problem of choice.
The problem is of finding the middle ground with neccessary standards for ease of use. It is a question of use cases and managing that intent over time. Software is an evolution not a fixed in time phenomena. The problem is of consious design and intent over many lifecycles. For example the Linux Kernel is a very curated and standards based core. Any other approach would be a disaster.
The desktop flavours are there for experimentation and curation to meet specific user groups. Its the distro's job to keep intent and design consistency. My argument is that Linux is not single OS. Distros are the answer to the diversity of usecases issue. On the desktop I wont blame Linux, but a specific distro and their lack of consistancy. Also their innability to keep that tight together. At the same time all these distros creates a problem of choice for new users. They dont create a welcoming landscape. I think that too is changing now. Trust me, modern Widows have very similar problems.
The thing that killed linux packaging is peoples ego, people thinking that a zip file filled with files and script triggers in one format is somehow better than another zip file filled with files and script triggers in another format. The repo format wars sapped so much good energy and it was a pointless waste of time. If the people involved were professionals, they would have realised this and fixed it. It's not a hard problem to fix, but unfortunately linux is full of so many amateur programmers who have little to no standards, little to no training, and little to no interest in actually doing whats best. So the end result is 15 package managers that split up the effort of building a distribution and waste energy. Prove me wrong.
@Tom McCreary except I am right, I’ve watched this shit show of a distro wars for the last 25 years and nobody seems to learn the lessons the previous guys before them demonstrated. They just repeat the same mistakes over and over and there are countless examples and countless proofs of how egos stood in the way. Being a professional software developer for almost that entire 25 year span and earning money from completing projects, learning from my mistakes and doing exactly what they should have and learning the lessons they should have. Gives me a lot of confidence in what I’m saying.
I would love workin with this guy!
I bookmarked this video. I’m about to start school for programming and IT. I wanna see how much I learn over the next two years and come back to this video lol. I only understood about 10% of it.
This is from 2014.
He has a point, for the most part I can get an old 32bit application for Windows 95 from 1996, put it in a modern Windows 10 64x, and there's a good chance it will run. Haven't had driver issues or DirectX issues in many years... Backwards compatibility is awesome. The fact I can install the same stuff across any version of Windows, 32 and 64, no matter the hardware, and it just works...
and if you include dosbox on top of that, the retrocompatibility of windows is truely impressive. i have a client that still rocks a 16 bit DOS accounting software on his w10 computer without any issue at all. if you try to run a box copy of a game released 10 years ago on linux (yes those existed), it will not work on a modern system, in fact it probably stopped working a long time ago. Meanwhile, you can still rock your original copy of the oregon trail on your w11 pc with an external floppy drive and it will run fine, if not better than it did originally.
Rocks, you mean using
I think a future project you just inspired me to do is create a combined package manager. Then distributions can use it and install in any format.
Funny, they just updated glibc for compiling the mainline kernel for ubuntu and it can't be installed on LTS anymore. So if you don't want to build it yourself, you now use 5.10.0-oem in the package repository. 5.10+ are the only maintained kernels that will make my new laptop work properly.
Additional problem. Discovering applications in Linux. Why is Google the most reliable way to find applications? If I want a word processor, a list of 200 packages vaguely related to word processing is not helpful.
The other major issue with Linux is the lack of a ubiquitous high quality application UI API. The Mac has had Cocoa since 2001, which is what makes it easy to write consistent, rich apps that talk to each other. Apps on Linux are generally inconsistent and not anywhere near as rich and polished.
Are they not? Do toolkits like QT, GTK, and Iced not count?
And this actually was on DebConf
This a perfect demonstration of the fact that abstraction is at the heart of software design.
Right to build 💪repair and upgrade.
I have been annoyed by packaging and dependency-management for years. I think RPM/DEB etc are well designed tools, but the repositories supporting the various distributions are a nightmare. A constant mix of dependencies that haven't been updated in 20 years, alongside others that make breaking changes every week, and no unifying ethos regarding when or how updates arrive.
The major problem is: If a program rely on libx, and the system decides do update that lib, it will just replace the lib and expect the program to update as well. But the correct and good way of doing that is to let the program use an old version of the lib. Allow the user to have 3, 4, 5 versions of the same lib, a only remove it from the system when almost not a single package is requiring that.
And to make this work, packages should come as static files, with all the dependencies, and when you install it just installs the ones that are not already installed.
Debconf 2014
Very up to date.
Linus is completely correct, and I have experienced this firsthand. It's a damn near impossible hell as a developer to make a single binary that'll work across multiple versions of the same distro, let alone multiple distros. Most people don't want to be forced to go through installing a massive laundry list of libraries just to get a single binary blob to work, nor should they. It's like a worse version of DLL hell.
People just want to be able to drop the binary on their PC, and be able to run it. FlatPaks and Snaps kind of get us there, but they eat up hard disk space like a fat kid in a candy store. Gotta love having to sacrifice 1.1gb for every 500kb binary, right?