It's a shame Quake and arena shooters as a genre died in popularity. I'd argue they're the most worthy of being played as a competitive sport, above most other genres.
Well they just aren't nearly as fun to watch or easy to play as other games. A low skill floor with a decently high skill ceiling will always be better than something with a huge ceiling but likewise high floor.
Rayven Hitt I would argue that Quake has a much lower skill floor than, say, Counter-Strike. Most of the skill in CS comes from how counter-intuitive it is to play (cant shoot while running, crosshair doesnt move with recoil, etc.) which results in a higher skill floor, but a lower skill ceiling. Quake/s gameplay, on the other hand, is a lot easier to grasp but requires much more time to be perfected.
Well quake and cs are completely different kinds of shooters and can't really be compared. Beyond mechanics quake is about knowing timings for resources while CS is about Eco. There isn't any, "this game requires more skill than the other" that's just a piss fight. They both have their place in the gaming world because they require two completely different kinds of players. Quake for me is more enjoyable to watch but for others it isn't and that's okay
+Tipzyyy you say you cant compare the two, yet you do exactly that in the very next sentence of your comment. Sure, they may be two very different types of shooters, but at the end of the day they are still shooters, and thus can be compared. I also prefer Quake myself, though I dont see how that's relevant.
Even if Quake was the most popular game in the world right now, I seriously think that Rapha, Cypher and Cooller (and Evil) would be again the best players in vanillaq3/Quakelive.
Without speaking of the comparison between the two, because I haven't any idea of who would be "bigger", let me say that Cooller is a fucking e-sport legend. His ability to adapt to any game, in any era is fucking astonishing...he was multiple times World Champion of Quake 3, Quake 4, European champion of QL, again a world champion in Overwatch with Misfits (that's a completely different kind of game!), and then he was third his year at Quakecon. And he mad it to so many finals in the Quake games, he was always a top contender. Even when in QL his era was apparently over, given the dominance of Cypher and Rapha, he was in so many world championship finals, losing to the new dominant players only for a small edge... This ability to mantain himself at the top level for so many years in so many games, and his particular style of play, so based on map control, strategy, playing Quake like a chess game, plus his personality, all this elements make him in my opinion as one of the greatest cyberathletes of all times, a true fucking legend of electronic sports.
As far as all the other mid lanes like Bjergsen go. To quote some KR fan in the translations on Invenglobal : Don't even argue with me on who the best midlaner is. Let's just argue on which Faker was the best. 2013? 2015? 2016? Maybe 2017?
Platinum the time where his LB was undefeated and had to be permabanned against him eventually. I don’t remember what year that was exactly. 2015 I believe?
Andrew Shabandarian Yup 2015 was definitely his best year. He dominated everyone in lane. He played champions like Yi,Olaf, and Diana. He was also crushed everyone on Leblanc, and the only one who played Ryze at worlds and solo killed people left and right.
I thought Faker was the most dominant and superlative talent of this generation in all genres and fields of human endeavor, as per your video on Faker.
Comparing players of different titles is a dangerous game. It's similar to comparing different players across sports. The difficulty lies within the relativity of skill gap, mechanics, and history of titles. Thorin is appealing to a logical argument with history, ingenuity in playstyle, personality, and pedigree. Here's the thing: it's incredibly difficult to quantify players in a single title, let alone across titles. While I understand that numbers mean nothing without context, it's difficult to take a qualitative argument seriously when the premise is already relative and not concrete.
With the points mentioned i think ogre 2 from the halo competitive scene could also be a candidate, solid player with flair, captain and a ridiculous tournament win percentage
It's just too bad Quake Champions is nowhere near as good as Quake Live/Quake 3. Diabotical looks way more interesting as a successor to Quake Live if you ask me. One of the best grand finals in Quake history, if not the best, was played at QuakeCon 2016 between Rapha and Evil. Check out the movie or the complete match if you haven't already.
@@koffe- Tournaments in QC has been great tbf! The game is so much smoother now aswell! Unless you have a potato. Rapha said at this Quakecon (ended 2 weeks ago ish) That it was his most funnest tourney (In that format) Round robin format, wich started a 1 year tournament :)
I think Mango the Melee player fits all these criterias aswell, he might not have the most tactical way to play the game like Cooller, but he makes up for that with his flamboyant and readyheavy style, which I would argue is perhaps even more exciting, atleast for casual viewers. Also he is known for his crazy loserbracket runs (which in the same way as clutches is really exciting to watch, plus losers runs have a underdog element to it aswell). Also his personality alone makes him superpopular, he is the biggest Meleestreamer by far, has a lot of shittalking and is a really funny guy in a lot of peoples eyes.
Thooorin what's your opinion on fighting games? are they interesting to watch? would you be interested in following them in the future as they get bigger?
Thanks for showing how impossibly stupid you must be to take that away as your conclusion. Now we can see the difference between the products of my mind and yours.
But that's you're exact argument. You're saying if basketball was more popular than soccer in the world, Lebron James/Steph Curry would be more well-known than Ronaldo/Messi
But if the player base isn't as large then wouldn't the competitiveness be weaker? With league having such a huge player base and Faker having continued success for such a long time over a growing player base, I feel it is really difficult to agree with the title. I think you acknowledge this at about 6 minutes, but imho this point carries more weight than any other.
those old legends grew up in the wrong time. nowadays they would be gods. as a cs player I always looked up to quake players. I mean you can be absolutely noob in cs go and you would be able to luckshot someone. try that joining a ffa q3 live server or something similiar. you're gonna cry because there is absolutely nothing you can do. no chance at all. same applies to legends like: grubby moon flash jaedong etc. etc.
ZerO, the Smash player who won 56 consecutive tournaments, should also be in the discussion. (You could also lobby for Daigo/Tokido in the fighting game scene, if you wanted.)
Though actually, after watching further in the video, I will retract the previous, since the discussion is largely about factors other than pure winning. (That said, ZerO being so hated by Smash fans is remarkable and certainly counts as fame.)
At least i enjoyed the Times where Quake 3, UT, CS 1.6 and Starcraft 1 was E-Sports finest. Time has changed, Players dont wanne ivest Time and Blood into a Game which is pure Skill like Quake 3 and Starcraft 1. They lost the Bite and rather take nice Lootboxed and some fun Matches.
Brandon Walker and when i say i want 1 million dollars what i really mean is i want 1 million dollars than have it taken away from me because that satisfies my statement.
I feel more emphasis needs to be placed on skill in regards to this. Faker is huge because he stands above the rest and no one is on his level. Cooler is and was one of the best but he wasn't untouchable. Sure style and personality are good but that doesn't make you become a god. Thats what faker is. How can a mere mortal be bigger than a god.
Faker isn't untouchable either. Sure he wins every major tournament with SKT but Faker still has games where he gets fucked by the enemy midlaner, not even encessarily due to him being camped by the entire team. I'm thinking of examples like in Fnatic vs SKT's Bo5 at the 2015 MSI where Febiven straight up beat him in two of the games int he best of 5 and smashed him early in a third game before SKT rallied and came back.
Look through this comment section and realise how manny people just comments without watching or understanding the points presented to them... Not once does Thooorin say Cooller is the best e-sports player ever.
I thought Cooller mostly spoke Russian, though. I can tell that the guy has personality (he actually seems like a guy you'd want to have a beer with - not someone who plays games all day), but I haven't heard him speak at length much in English. So where do you see this?
Thooorin nice video, personally don't know a lot about quake, but this topic got me to think about Mighty mouse, he might be the best fighter in the world, yet very small fan base. If u are gonna make a MMA video again, he might be a very interresting video.
thats wrong ..you miss so many cirmcumstances that would have a huge impact on who would be the best then. Like, if its the most watched e-sport that would mean its the most relevant esport wich results in a massive playerbase. Big playerbase means bigger competition and potentialy , some gems would appear that noone ever saw since the player never played the game. When u have a lower playerbase the overall skill will drop in meanings of the max. potential of the game. so its easier to be the best among only a few. You cant just say, the clear best player in one thing would also be the best when u talk about a niche. Thats logic of children dening the fact of certain circumstances, and only going fo the "obvious" result eventho its not.
I think if there was one helium atom different at the start of the universe then Smeb would be by far the biggest star in all of e-Sports. Mechanically he's just as good as Faker, he has a HUGELY attractive personality and he can shit-talk like a fucking pro (sure his shit-talking is in Korean, but all League broadcasts have subtitles anyway, and even Korean streams on Twitch do now as well), his style is REALLY good. He can play some of the most fun and flashiest champs in LoL amazingly well, better than any other toplaner who's ever played LoL professionally (I'm thinking about his Fiora performances at the 2015 Worlds or his Kennen in 2016), but the only thing he lacks is competitive success and that's simply because SKT as a team is better than any team Smeb has been on. If SKT had picked up Smeb instead of Huni then I genuinely think by now Smeb would be nipping at the heels of Faker's fame. Honestly, it seems like just because KT didn't make it to Worlds this year everyone has forgotten about how fucking good Smeb is.
Could be true. Smeb is definitely the only player to compete with Faker's level for more than one year I would say. Someone needs to build a team around that man!
It's too big of a Hypothetical to make. You would have to assume that cooller would be able to beat all of the extra millions players that would be playing the ranked ladder, all dedicated and addicted to quake, streaming, making guides, watching YOUR games, analyzing, etc. On top of that, Korea's high pressure, e-sport culture. China's high pressure e-sport culture known, paying millions to top players. You would have to assume all of this, quake would be a completely different game, and cooler would not be #1.
if OSU is the biggest esport then cookiezi > faker and you are forgetting one thing thorin. if quake became big instead of league then faker would probably play quake instead and cooler will become like bjergsen. fanboys say that he is better than faker but we all know who the real god is. and i like how the definition of having a good personality is trash talking people i would think that is the opposite of a good personality.
Blame the FGC for picking up terrible Capcom games just because of the brand name, but completely ignores gems like KoF because of "bad graphics". Nevermind the fact that SFV and MvCI look awful, too.
Fighting games have been a dead esport for forever. Street Fighter has just always been the least dead of them, followed by Marvel throughout most of the genre's competitive history. It's hard to play those better fighting games when no 1 plays them because no 1 plays them. Capcom had a sort of monopoly on the competitive side of the genre and they suicided their reputation. The next most popular fighting games right now are Smash Bros 4 and Melee. Egh
Isn't it fair to say that it is unlikely that Cooller would be as dominant if Quake was the biggest E-sport in the world? It seems unlikely that he wouldn't have competition for the top spot if Quake had a playerbase many times larger.
the problem with this video thorin is.. you are talking about a guy that played a game in the late 90s... i didn't have 10 years back then and i'm also from argentina so that information never came here... im not old, im not young but i can't compare players when you talk to me about people that played competitive 20 years ago..
Fuck LoL. Quake 3/Quake Live is the best game by far, but it's not popular anymore mostly because people don't have the effort to become decent at it since it's such a hard game.
Please do a video on why quake isn't popular anymore even though there are "real" quake and quake style games out right now(ql reflex) and why is qc now popular even though the game play is deliberately watered down
+John Doe lol Quake Champions isn't popular at all, it's a failure, and for good reasons if you ask me. Quake Live has graphics from 1999 and lacks matchmaking and other modern features. It's an extremely hard game so those things are even more crucial to have than in other games. Diabotical looks very promising I think though.
Is this one of those thought experiments where you take an opinion that you actually think is ridiculous but try to argue it the best you can? Everyone are plebs compared to Faker.
LOL: multi-million dollar pro-contracts, millions of tournament viewers, production quality that puts ESPN to shame. Quake: pro players crowd-funding legal defence for their drug trafficking trials, literally tens of tournament viewers, production quality like a shitty Wayne's World. Damn I love Quake tho, zlive is carrying the pro scene still.
Let me pose you this question, Do you think Michael Jordan or Joe Montana a bigger star. For me, most people recognize MJ over Montana, even though football is a bigger sport. Now it may be to era differences between the two, but I think we know MJ more because he was so, as Thooorin likes to state "transcendent" in his sport, so dominate. Even though Basketball gets half the amount of views as Football, almost double the amount of people know MJ over Montana.
Eh, those runs are like 15 years apart. The marketing for Michael Jordan was far superior, as well as his exposure. He also plays in a game where there's less people on the field/court at a time, making it easier to dominate (note that he didn't dominate baseball at all when he tried). Despite football being the bigger sport, it's harder to be a dominant star player due to sheer number of players in the pool. League is the same way, it's actually more impressive that Faker dominates in a game that everyone plays as opposed to a game that only a small number of people play, relative to League.
I can see your point on Marketing, but my point was not that MJ dominated more per say, just that we know him more I.E. he is bigger. but yah, I can see the argument that he was branded and marketed better. Maybe it would be better to say Lary Bird and Montana
NBA is way more popular than NFL though. Sure, in the US NFL is bigger. but NBA is global and Michael was an international superstar. Outside of the US, no one cares about football.
I think that FPS games like Quake or CS:GO are less popular than League of legends for a reason. You aim, hit or miss- that is all you have to do to be good essentially, consistently hit someone quickly & accurately with your crosshair. The macro plays, split second decision making are only so many to be made. In league, you can choose to have 10+ different approaches for a given situation, cs:go is simplified down to go to X or Z site- hide somewhere until round ends/Quake, its capture the flag. Micro play is also more difficult, you need to have a deeper champion pool. Abilities in League make the permutation of different sort of plays, combinations more complex. You have runes, builds, trees- so many things to consider. I think that League is much more female player-base friendly as well, in comparison. If League could have had a potential rival today, it would have been World of Warcraft. Unfortunately, they never promulgated their arenas or RBG's like League encouraged competitive gameplay- creating attractive prize pools etc. All that really paid them off in the end. Really good long-term sight!
You clearly know very little about what goes into playing a duel match of Quake. You dont even know what gamemode they play. Your statements about both games are the equivalent of me saying "All there is to LoL is clicking on minions until they die and using your abilities at the right time."
the only reason he's been at the top for so long is because the game simply doesn't have the playerbase that's anywhere near LOL. Much less competition. Same how Mighty Mouse will never be greater than Anderson Silva. Suuure if flyweight had better fighters he would be the greatest, IF he beat them all. He didn't. What Silva did was simply far more impressive.
wow you must never watch mma to say that. MW was the weakest division for the longest time, when you have challengers like lutter, leites, cote, and maia you expect me to think that is better than mccall, benavidez, and dodson? And DJ fought at a weight class above at the highest level with wins over guys like torres and only losing to cruz in a title fight. Plus the flyweights are way higher in technical skill than MW's of 6+ years ago. That being said there have been challengers to cooller: rapha, spartie, cypher, and avek to name a few. Comparatively in the beginning of cs SK couldn't be defeated as they were so good and the player pool was small, that doesn't mean they are not as good as they were because of the small player pool.
I agree with the OP. Because : What is the player base of Quake now? What was it at its most popular time in comparison to league right now? That should tell you what the competition would be like. Most likely, you would have someone come off as better than this person. Don't get me wrong! I think that he's good but if you tell me that he'd be the best out of 67 million people who play league right now, I'd tell you that you're being absurdly optimistic about the man's genes. Not to mention, Quake isn't as complicated at league. You just need to aim and shoot well as a fundamental.
Silva's competition is so far overrated. Mighty Mouse has Joe B and Dodson which are better wins than literally anyone on Silva's record. Not saying I think MM is the goat, I think that goes to Aldo or GSP because they both had the hardest competition of any of the other all time greats.
I don't think an increased player base would change the all time rankings of players like Cooller, Rapha, Cypher etc. These players are transcendent of all other players in Quake by a vast margin, similar to how Mighty Mouse is transcendent to all other Flyweights by a vast margin. Increasing the player base would merely fill up this huge gap. Sure, maybe there would be a players that would surpass Cooller, but even if every human being on planet earth played Quake, Cooller would likely still be one of the best.
What the fuck are you talking about Thorin,D: You are assumming he will remain at the top with a 100000 times bigger scene,players,talent,etcétera,look at the old pros on lol,are they good at all?,is there anyone that still plays and is good?,maybe there is 1 or 2?,Nah,Cooler will most likely be a washed up player in quake was a biggest as lol
If quake was as big as league, the not only would the playerbase be way bigger but so would the pro scene and it might even be possible cooller would be shit compared to a korean "faker" that would just show cooller (bjergsen) how shit he is.
You're an idiot if you think every single League player is a) 12 and b) a fan of Faker. First off League came out in 2009 and millions of LoL players started playing at least 7 years ago, so for them to be 12 they would have to have started playing when they were 5 years old, and secondly I'm pretty sure whilst most League fans respect Faker, only fans of his team think he's some sort of god.
Youre an idiot if you take every single youtube comment seriously lmao. Besides, the downvotes are clearly from Faker fans who dont know cooller, which was the original point I made, albeit with hyperbole.
I think it's more that his argument is just such a what if statement. Sure, if Quake was the biggest esport and Cooller was just as dominant he'd be the biggest name in eSports. But, it's not and if it was he'd probably not be the best. It's like saying if ImaQTpie was the best league player he'd be the biggest name in esports player of all time because he is so charismatic. Probably true, but it's never going to happen rofl.
a prime cooller in any popular game today would be untouchable, the dude was a meme god before memes were even a thing.
they still arent a "thing".
It's a shame Quake and arena shooters as a genre died in popularity. I'd argue they're the most worthy of being played as a competitive sport, above most other genres.
Well they just aren't nearly as fun to watch or easy to play as other games. A low skill floor with a decently high skill ceiling will always be better than something with a huge ceiling but likewise high floor.
I personally think they are the best to watch
Rayven Hitt I would argue that Quake has a much lower skill floor than, say, Counter-Strike. Most of the skill in CS comes from how counter-intuitive it is to play (cant shoot while running, crosshair doesnt move with recoil, etc.) which results in a higher skill floor, but a lower skill ceiling. Quake/s gameplay, on the other hand, is a lot easier to grasp but requires much more time to be perfected.
Well quake and cs are completely different kinds of shooters and can't really be compared. Beyond mechanics quake is about knowing timings for resources while CS is about Eco.
There isn't any, "this game requires more skill than the other" that's just a piss fight. They both have their place in the gaming world because they require two completely different kinds of players.
Quake for me is more enjoyable to watch but for others it isn't and that's okay
+Tipzyyy you say you cant compare the two, yet you do exactly that in the very next sentence of your comment. Sure, they may be two very different types of shooters, but at the end of the day they are still shooters, and thus can be compared. I also prefer Quake myself, though I dont see how that's relevant.
Even if Quake was the most popular game in the world right now, I seriously think that Rapha, Cypher and Cooller (and Evil) would be again the best players in vanillaq3/Quakelive.
So your saying he's cooller than faker?
or is faker, faker than cooller?
Stroose Music Dum Dum Tiss
Without speaking of the comparison between the two, because I haven't any idea of who would be "bigger", let me say that Cooller is a fucking e-sport legend. His ability to adapt to any game, in any era is fucking astonishing...he was multiple times World Champion of Quake 3, Quake 4, European champion of QL, again a world champion in Overwatch with Misfits (that's a completely different kind of game!), and then he was third his year at Quakecon. And he mad it to so many finals in the Quake games, he was always a top contender. Even when in QL his era was apparently over, given the dominance of Cypher and Rapha, he was in so many world championship finals, losing to the new dominant players only for a small edge...
This ability to mantain himself at the top level for so many years in so many games, and his particular style of play, so based on map control, strategy, playing Quake like a chess game, plus his personality, all this elements make him in my opinion as one of the greatest cyberathletes of all times, a true fucking legend of electronic sports.
And here I thought you picked the Faker example as a clickbait... Worked on me...
PassivesAbseits just down vote it, click bait worked on me so I downvoted
really enjoy your Quake content, as its one of the few esport scenes i kinda missed out on
As far as all the other mid lanes like Bjergsen go. To quote some KR fan in the translations on Invenglobal : Don't even argue with me on who the best midlaner is. Let's just argue on which Faker was the best. 2013? 2015? 2016? Maybe 2017?
2017. Faker was Support Taank, and Carry at the same time in every game.
Platinum the time where his LB was undefeated and had to be permabanned against him eventually. I don’t remember what year that was exactly. 2015 I believe?
Nah it's 2013.. when he rekt everyone purely with mechanic
+Andrew Shabandarian 2015 is when he dominated Korea playing troll mid landers like Master Yi, and Irelia
Andrew Shabandarian Yup 2015 was definitely his best year. He dominated everyone in lane. He played champions like Yi,Olaf, and Diana. He was also crushed everyone on Leblanc, and the only one who played Ryze at worlds and solo killed people left and right.
Quake videos are some of my favorite content.
The thumbnail looked like you dressed up as a Vampire. I came to investigate and was sorely disappointed.
Guess it’s better to be cool than fake, who would’ve thought
I thought Faker was the most dominant and superlative talent of this generation in all genres and fields of human endeavor, as per your video on Faker.
He concedes that Cooller's skill would not be on the level as Faker or Flash.
You should've mentioned Ocelote when talking about how personality makes fame.
Comparing players of different titles is a dangerous game. It's similar to comparing different players across sports.
The difficulty lies within the relativity of skill gap, mechanics, and history of titles. Thorin is appealing to a logical argument with history, ingenuity in playstyle, personality, and pedigree. Here's the thing: it's incredibly difficult to quantify players in a single title, let alone across titles. While I understand that numbers mean nothing without context, it's difficult to take a qualitative argument seriously when the premise is already relative and not concrete.
He's making the argument that Cooller is better equipped to be a "star" than the other top players, so the game is irrelevant IMO.
With the points mentioned i think ogre 2 from the halo competitive scene could also be a candidate, solid player with flair, captain and a ridiculous tournament win percentage
It's just too bad Quake Champions is nowhere near as good as Quake Live/Quake 3. Diabotical looks way more interesting as a successor to Quake Live if you ask me. One of the best grand finals in Quake history, if not the best, was played at QuakeCon 2016 between Rapha and Evil. Check out the movie or the complete match if you haven't already.
@@koffe- Tournaments in QC has been great tbf! The game is so much smoother now aswell! Unless you have a potato. Rapha said at this Quakecon (ended 2 weeks ago ish) That it was his most funnest tourney (In that format) Round robin format, wich started a 1 year tournament :)
totally agree with you thorin, #1 lucio player in the world
I think Mango the Melee player fits all these criterias aswell, he might not have the most tactical way to play the game like Cooller, but he makes up for that with his flamboyant and readyheavy style, which I would argue is perhaps even more exciting, atleast for casual viewers. Also he is known for his crazy loserbracket runs (which in the same way as clutches is really exciting to watch, plus losers runs have a underdog element to it aswell). Also his personality alone makes him superpopular, he is the biggest Meleestreamer by far, has a lot of shittalking and is a really funny guy in a lot of peoples eyes.
great breakdown thorin, great insights, I am just now learning quake history and storylines and I would agree with you
quake live still has an active enough player base. best game on steam and it's only a few bucks.
Thooorin what's your opinion on fighting games? are they interesting to watch? would you be interested in following them in the future as they get bigger?
Thorin logic: If an esport was the biggest in the world, its biggest star would be the biggest star in Esport :O
Thanks for showing how impossibly stupid you must be to take that away as your conclusion. Now we can see the difference between the products of my mind and yours.
Thooorin r/iamverysmart
Indianspartan hahahahaha
But that's you're exact argument. You're saying if basketball was more popular than soccer in the world, Lebron James/Steph Curry would be more well-known than Ronaldo/Messi
Thooorin What an intellect , truly the greatest analyst of our generation
But if the player base isn't as large then wouldn't the competitiveness be weaker? With league having such a huge player base and Faker having continued success for such a long time over a growing player base, I feel it is really difficult to agree with the title. I think you acknowledge this at about 6 minutes, but imho this point carries more weight than any other.
The only thing I’m slightly disappointed about that you didn’t touch on was how Cooller transitioned into Overwatch
those old legends grew up in the wrong time. nowadays they would be gods. as a cs player I always looked up to quake players. I mean you can be absolutely noob in cs go and you would be able to luckshot someone. try that joining a ffa q3 live server or something similiar. you're gonna cry because there is absolutely nothing you can do. no chance at all. same applies to legends like:
grubby
moon
flash
jaedong etc. etc.
Aimlevel maybe 10 years from now people will say the same about Faker.
Are you going to make a video about the recent CSGO tournament "Epicenter"? VP's run, Faze fail and SK's dominance? :P I'd love to hear your thoughts!
ZerO, the Smash player who won 56 consecutive tournaments, should also be in the discussion. (You could also lobby for Daigo/Tokido in the fighting game scene, if you wanted.)
Though actually, after watching further in the video, I will retract the previous, since the discussion is largely about factors other than pure winning. (That said, ZerO being so hated by Smash fans is remarkable and certainly counts as fame.)
I wish Quake was, at least, bigger than LoL
At least i enjoyed the Times where Quake 3, UT, CS 1.6 and Starcraft 1 was E-Sports finest.
Time has changed, Players dont wanne ivest Time and Blood into a Game which is pure Skill like Quake 3 and Starcraft 1.
They lost the Bite and rather take nice Lootboxed and some fun Matches.
"at least bigger than lol" so you mean you wish it was the biggest.
Brandon Walker and when i say i want 1 million dollars what i really mean is i want 1 million dollars than have it taken away from me because that satisfies my statement.
I wish quake was HALF as big as LoL
Shin Tenkai no, its just that nowadays gamers have more casual players.
I feel more emphasis needs to be placed on skill in regards to this. Faker is huge because he stands above the rest and no one is on his level. Cooler is and was one of the best but he wasn't untouchable. Sure style and personality are good but that doesn't make you become a god. Thats what faker is. How can a mere mortal be bigger than a god.
Faker isn't untouchable either. Sure he wins every major tournament with SKT but Faker still has games where he gets fucked by the enemy midlaner, not even encessarily due to him being camped by the entire team. I'm thinking of examples like in Fnatic vs SKT's Bo5 at the 2015 MSI where Febiven straight up beat him in two of the games int he best of 5 and smashed him early in a third game before SKT rallied and came back.
The overwatch player Super from the SF shock meets a lot of these categories
Look through this comment section and realise how manny people just comments without watching or understanding the points presented to them...
Not once does Thooorin say Cooller is the best e-sports player ever.
I've never given a flying fuck about Quake, but this was a compelling video.
I thought Cooller mostly spoke Russian, though. I can tell that the guy has personality (he actually seems like a guy you'd want to have a beer with - not someone who plays games all day), but I haven't heard him speak at length much in English. So where do you see this?
I had no idea who Faker was before this video.
I could listen to you talk about a players skill set for hours.
Thooorin nice video, personally don't know a lot about quake, but this topic got me to think about Mighty mouse, he might be the best fighter in the world, yet very small fan base. If u are gonna make a MMA video again, he might be a very interresting video.
THANK YOU FOR THE QUAKE CONTENT!!!!!!!
being attractive really fucking helps in esports
Then why the fuck couldn't Hauntzer get through QF?
I’m a bit confused, is Thorin saying that if Quake was the same size as LoL then Cooller would be bigger still?
MC from Starcraft 2 is a good candidate
its about quake?
thats wrong ..you miss so many cirmcumstances that would have a huge impact on who would be the best then. Like, if its the most watched e-sport that would mean its the most relevant esport wich results in a massive playerbase. Big playerbase means bigger competition and potentialy , some gems would appear that noone ever saw since the player never played the game. When u have a lower playerbase the overall skill will drop in meanings of the max. potential of the game. so its easier to be the best among only a few. You cant just say, the clear best player in one thing would also be the best when u talk about a niche. Thats logic of children dening the fact of certain circumstances, and only going fo the "obvious" result eventho its not.
Maybe he would be, but unlikely
Yeah it's a stupid argument.
Thorin make another video about the need for more international tournaments in league of legends.
idk you seem to forget TDM was bigger than 1v1 in quakes hayday
I think if there was one helium atom different at the start of the universe then Smeb would be by far the biggest star in all of e-Sports. Mechanically he's just as good as Faker, he has a HUGELY attractive personality and he can shit-talk like a fucking pro (sure his shit-talking is in Korean, but all League broadcasts have subtitles anyway, and even Korean streams on Twitch do now as well), his style is REALLY good. He can play some of the most fun and flashiest champs in LoL amazingly well, better than any other toplaner who's ever played LoL professionally (I'm thinking about his Fiora performances at the 2015 Worlds or his Kennen in 2016), but the only thing he lacks is competitive success and that's simply because SKT as a team is better than any team Smeb has been on. If SKT had picked up Smeb instead of Huni then I genuinely think by now Smeb would be nipping at the heels of Faker's fame. Honestly, it seems like just because KT didn't make it to Worlds this year everyone has forgotten about how fucking good Smeb is.
Could be true. Smeb is definitely the only player to compete with Faker's level for more than one year I would say. Someone needs to build a team around that man!
Do you think Stephano could have been a contender if he kept playing ?
It's too big of a Hypothetical to make. You would have to assume that cooller would be able to beat all of the extra millions players that would be playing the ranked ladder, all dedicated and addicted to quake, streaming, making guides, watching YOUR games, analyzing, etc. On top of that, Korea's high pressure, e-sport culture. China's high pressure e-sport culture known, paying millions to top players. You would have to assume all of this, quake would be a completely different game, and cooler would not be #1.
Cooller is a god, so smart
Who is Faker?
if OSU is the biggest esport then cookiezi > faker
and you are forgetting one thing thorin. if quake became big instead of league then faker would probably play quake instead and cooler will become like bjergsen. fanboys say that he is better than faker but we all know who the real god is. and i like how the definition of having a good personality is trash talking people i would think that is the opposite of a good personality.
Wish FGC was bigger:( Diago Umehara would be INSANELY big as well if FGC was lol sized IMO
Bloodeyes diago has the biggest moment in esports history as it is.
Fighting games are sadly dead. EVO 2017 lost about 30%-50% of its viewers and players in games compared to last year
+EdgeLordBetrayal you can thank the devs who've dumbed down just about every fighting game there is for that.
Blame the FGC for picking up terrible Capcom games just because of the brand name, but completely ignores gems like KoF because of "bad graphics". Nevermind the fact that SFV and MvCI look awful, too.
Fighting games have been a dead esport for forever. Street Fighter has just always been the least dead of them, followed by Marvel throughout most of the genre's competitive history. It's hard to play those better fighting games when no 1 plays them because no 1 plays them. Capcom had a sort of monopoly on the competitive side of the genre and they suicided their reputation. The next most popular fighting games right now are Smash Bros 4 and Melee. Egh
Epicenter thoughts?
no, that'd be cypher
Can't you apply this to literally anyone who dominated an esport that is smaller than league.
If you ignore everything I said in the video.
Isn't it fair to say that it is unlikely that Cooller would be as dominant if Quake was the biggest E-sport in the world? It seems unlikely that he wouldn't have competition for the top spot if Quake had a playerbase many times larger.
If ImaQTpie was the better than Faker, he'd be more popular. His personality is more engaging.
Free topic for you Thorin.
Daigo umahara
Best fighting gamer, definitely. Who else is more famous?
EdgeLordBetrayal m2k :)
He's infamous
Who is cooler
It's burning
Cypher? He was the much better player for a longer period of time
the problem with this video thorin is.. you are talking about a guy that played a game in the late 90s... i didn't have 10 years back then and i'm also from argentina so that information never came here... im not old, im not young but i can't compare players when you talk to me about people that played competitive 20 years ago..
i have one question, wtf is QUAKE ?
Who's faker? Or which game is he from?
excuse me ? the best game of all time ? League of legends ?
I did play some League with some of my friends back in the day. A bit too casual for my taste.
found the dota player
Nah, played HoN a bit on and off. Didnt really fancy the spell spam, items and forced deathballs in League.
Fuck LoL. Quake 3/Quake Live is the best game by far, but it's not popular anymore mostly because people don't have the effort to become decent at it since it's such a hard game.
I see.
Please do a video on why quake isn't popular anymore even though there are "real" quake and quake style games out right now(ql reflex) and why is qc now popular even though the game play is deliberately watered down
ua-cam.com/video/G-2l-siG7Ls/v-deo.html
+John Doe lol Quake Champions isn't popular at all, it's a failure, and for good reasons if you ask me. Quake Live has graphics from 1999 and lacks matchmaking and other modern features. It's an extremely hard game so those things are even more crucial to have than in other games. Diabotical looks very promising I think though.
How dare you evaluate God
Down voted for click bait
Is this one of those thought experiments where you take an opinion that you actually think is ridiculous but try to argue it the best you can? Everyone are plebs compared to Faker.
Faker's lg is nothink on lan
LOL: multi-million dollar pro-contracts, millions of tournament viewers, production quality that puts ESPN to shame.
Quake: pro players crowd-funding legal defence for their drug trafficking trials, literally tens of tournament viewers, production quality like a shitty Wayne's World.
Damn I love Quake tho, zlive is carrying the pro scene still.
too bad Quake Champions is nowhere near as good as Quake 3/Quake Live. Diabotical looks promising though.
dendi in delta?
I feel like you really went out on a limb saying that the best player in the biggest game would be the biggest star. Its common sense.
Let me pose you this question, Do you think Michael Jordan or Joe Montana a bigger star. For me, most people recognize MJ over Montana, even though football is a bigger sport. Now it may be to era differences between the two, but I think we know MJ more because he was so, as Thooorin likes to state "transcendent" in his sport, so dominate. Even though Basketball gets half the amount of views as Football, almost double the amount of people know MJ over Montana.
Eh, those runs are like 15 years apart. The marketing for Michael Jordan was far superior, as well as his exposure. He also plays in a game where there's less people on the field/court at a time, making it easier to dominate (note that he didn't dominate baseball at all when he tried).
Despite football being the bigger sport, it's harder to be a dominant star player due to sheer number of players in the pool. League is the same way, it's actually more impressive that Faker dominates in a game that everyone plays as opposed to a game that only a small number of people play, relative to League.
I can see your point on Marketing, but my point was not that MJ dominated more per say, just that we know him more I.E. he is bigger. but yah, I can see the argument that he was branded and marketed better. Maybe it would be better to say Lary Bird and Montana
NBA is way more popular than NFL though. Sure, in the US NFL is bigger. but NBA is global and Michael was an international superstar. Outside of the US, no one cares about football.
More Quake plz
lol nothing on Epicenter?
why not take f0rest as the cs star?
Too bad he didn't want to give you an interview
CYPHER CYPHER CYPHER
what about rapha? what about cypher?
They might be better players but this video is not about that
C O O L L E R
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Mang0 is esports Jesus.
All the puns in the world
love ya thozy
Faker > everything else
You never mentioned any fighting game top players. The genre will never be esports
I think that FPS games like Quake or CS:GO are less popular than League of legends for a reason. You aim, hit or miss- that is all you have to do to be good essentially, consistently hit someone quickly & accurately with your crosshair. The macro plays, split second decision making are only so many to be made. In league, you can choose to have 10+ different approaches for a given situation, cs:go is simplified down to go to X or Z site- hide somewhere until round ends/Quake, its capture the flag. Micro play is also more difficult, you need to have a deeper champion pool. Abilities in League make the permutation of different sort of plays, combinations more complex. You have runes, builds, trees- so many things to consider.
I think that League is much more female player-base friendly as well, in comparison. If League could have had a potential rival today, it would have been World of Warcraft. Unfortunately, they never promulgated their arenas or RBG's like League encouraged competitive gameplay- creating attractive prize pools etc. All that really paid them off in the end. Really good long-term sight!
You clearly know very little about what goes into playing a duel match of Quake. You dont even know what gamemode they play. Your statements about both games are the equivalent of me saying "All there is to LoL is clicking on minions until they die and using your abilities at the right time."
+Das Erste Opfer yeah, this guy is mind-bogglingly ignorant about Quake. "Quake, it's capture the flag". lmfao.
Qua... what?
My name is Van im an artist, a performance artist.
Your name is Roberto.
SLAVES, GET YOUR ASS BACK HERE
the only reason he's been at the top for so long is because the game simply doesn't have the playerbase that's anywhere near LOL. Much less competition. Same how Mighty Mouse will never be greater than Anderson Silva. Suuure if flyweight had better fighters he would be the greatest, IF he beat them all. He didn't. What Silva did was simply far more impressive.
Gapi P pretty bad analogy using two different games and comparing it to one sport lol nice try though.
wow you must never watch mma to say that. MW was the weakest division for the longest time, when you have challengers like lutter, leites, cote, and maia you expect me to think that is better than mccall, benavidez, and dodson? And DJ fought at a weight class above at the highest level with wins over guys like torres and only losing to cruz in a title fight. Plus the flyweights are way higher in technical skill than MW's of 6+ years ago. That being said there have been challengers to cooller: rapha, spartie, cypher, and avek to name a few. Comparatively in the beginning of cs SK couldn't be defeated as they were so good and the player pool was small, that doesn't mean they are not as good as they were because of the small player pool.
I agree with the OP. Because : What is the player base of Quake now? What was it at its most popular time in comparison to league right now? That should tell you what the competition would be like. Most likely, you would have someone come off as better than this person. Don't get me wrong! I think that he's good but if you tell me that he'd be the best out of 67 million people who play league right now, I'd tell you that you're being absurdly optimistic about the man's genes. Not to mention, Quake isn't as complicated at league. You just need to aim and shoot well as a fundamental.
Silva's competition is so far overrated. Mighty Mouse has Joe B and Dodson which are better wins than literally anyone on Silva's record. Not saying I think MM is the goat, I think that goes to Aldo or GSP because they both had the hardest competition of any of the other all time greats.
I don't think an increased player base would change the all time rankings of players like Cooller, Rapha, Cypher etc. These players are transcendent of all other players in Quake by a vast margin, similar to how Mighty Mouse is transcendent to all other Flyweights by a vast margin. Increasing the player base would merely fill up this huge gap. Sure, maybe there would be a players that would surpass Cooller, but even if every human being on planet earth played Quake, Cooller would likely still be one of the best.
What the fuck are you talking about Thorin,D: You are assumming he will remain at the top with a 100000 times bigger scene,players,talent,etcétera,look at the old pros on lol,are they good at all?,is there anyone that still plays and is good?,maybe there is 1 or 2?,Nah,Cooler will most likely be a washed up player in quake was a biggest as lol
Soaz man. :/ Soaz might not be the best player ever but he's been clutch since the beginning of league.
I can't speak for Cooller, but Faker is pleb when it comes to interviews and outgame personality theres nothing into him that makes him interesting.
Nice clickbaits
If quake was as big as league, the not only would the playerbase be way bigger but so would the pro scene and it might even be possible cooller would be shit compared to a korean "faker" that would just show cooller (bjergsen) how shit he is.
Probably wouldn't have even heard of cooller to be honest.
Faker is esports jesus. I love it. xD
Is that a sock on your mic?
who tf is cooller
lmao, all those downvotes by LoL 12 year olds. Be invested in one esport in your lifetime and somehow think youre the shit smh.
You're an idiot if you think every single League player is a) 12 and b) a fan of Faker. First off League came out in 2009 and millions of LoL players started playing at least 7 years ago, so for them to be 12 they would have to have started playing when they were 5 years old, and secondly I'm pretty sure whilst most League fans respect Faker, only fans of his team think he's some sort of god.
Youre an idiot if you take every single youtube comment seriously lmao. Besides, the downvotes are clearly from Faker fans who dont know cooller, which was the original point I made, albeit with hyperbole.
I think it's more that his argument is just such a what if statement. Sure, if Quake was the biggest esport and Cooller was just as dominant he'd be the biggest name in eSports. But, it's not and if it was he'd probably not be the best.
It's like saying if ImaQTpie was the best league player he'd be the biggest name in esports player of all time because he is so charismatic. Probably true, but it's never going to happen rofl.
thats a nice sock on your mic thooorin Kappa
heaton > boxer > faker
quake is last century bro... get the net
Big Shaq is bigger than Faker Srrrrrka pop pop
If quake was bigger than league, there'll be more koreans playing that game, and cooller won't be the best.
nah dude that's too far