Of all the open chord shapes I learned the C chord was the toughest. I'm pretty sure this will be a very useful video for a lot of people. I'll be using it to perfect my grip. Thank You Justin.
Ive never thought to form the Am at first and then just move my 3rd finger.. thank you ! You have no idea how much this little thing helped me, Ive been struggling for months !
Thank you for the reassurance. I really appreciate hearing that this is one that takes a lot of practice at the beginning but it will improve. It's a real pill for me, and I might give up otherwise.
The single tip of rotating your hand so that the fingers are more together REALLY me helped taking the awkward feeling out of this chord! Thank you so much!
I prefer to mute the E string with my thumb. It's so much more natural to me than trying to mute it with my 3rd finger. That seems like i'm trying to teach my fingers to not sit correctly on the strings if i do that. Obviously everyone prefers different strategies with finger placing but just thought i'd mention this as other beginners may prefer to use the thumb.
Lisa Aaa I’m in the same boat with you (Or was since you probably are at another level since this comment)I’m doing it this way on acoustic but will obviously change the technique slightly when I get a electric guitar.
@@lincolneyar8269 Actually you can just avoid playing that E low string, but if you are strumming fast you may find that hard. So maybe it is wise to learn to mute right from the begining. Just an advice 😉
I took too much to start this lesson 5, I'v picked it up imediatly, that makes me happy since at the start I was doubting myself, thank's for the help!
anyone else really struggle changing between c chord and the g chord fluently ? ive been practicing it for a solid month now and i still struggle to do it quickly.
If you're comfortable playing both chords by themselves, then I suggest checking out an older Justin's video called Air Changes. The idea behind it is that instead of placing fingers one by one, you'd start forming your next chord shape mid-air immediately after taking your fingers off of strings.
@@jobeyyyy I can switch from c to g pretty well, my fingers naturally do it without too much thinking, but going from g to c is much harder for some reason, my index and middle fingers move automatically but my ring finger doesnt for some reason, it just doesn't feel natural for me yet.
If I move my thumb a bit to the right, it's much easier for me to play the chord. Relaxing an arm is the best advice, Justin. Thank you very much, sir!
My initial way of doing this is to place the third finger first, the 2nd finger then 1st finger in that order. Much easier to stretch than putting the 1st finger in the the first fret second string and then the others. Hopefully as my fingers get more flexy, I should be able to place all three at once.
OK, so I've been trying to get the C chord for two weeks now doing exactly as you say, the problem is the back of my 2nd finger mutes the 3rd string B, could it be I just need a guitar with a wider nut width? my present guitar is 45mm, the trouble is guitars with a greater nut width are so expensive. Forgot to mention I'm doing finger style.
You bet! If you want this type of lesson for beginner guitar check out the beginner course: www.justinguitar.com/classes/beginner-guitar-course-grade-one Cheers 😊 | close2u | JustinGuitar Official Guide [ www.justinguitar.com/ ] & Moderator on JustinGuitar Forum
I couldn't manage to mute it with my ring finger so I used my thumb for it. Also, I couldn't manage to find a fretting finger to mute the 2 low strings while playing the D chord. I recommend using your thumb if you are struggling with muting the low strings.
I started to learn guitar many years ago, but I still include my pinky on the the 3rd fret bass E string, I don't know how I ever learnt that, but it's a habit that has been with me for years.
Ah you mean the more "classic" way to play a C chord, with the G on the low E string played as well? It is a regular C but, as you figured, with a G as lowest note, making your chord an 'inversion'. Feel free to mix use, depending on context. You might not always hear much difference but it sounds very obvious when you start fingerpicking | LievenDV | JustinGuitar Approved Teacher, Assistant and Community Admin
@@justinguitar Thanks for the reply. Actually, I got that wrong, it's my pinky that I put on the A string (3rd fret) and my ring finger on the E string (3rd fret).
I have very small hands for someone of my height and build, just how I was born. In some ways that gives me a huge advantage on the guitar (no advantages at all on bass unfortunately lol) but one thing I found is that it is physically impossible for me to mute the E string with my ring finger, while at the same time getting a clean note on the A string, but also without deadening D string. Just not possible, there isn't enough finger real estate to go around (trust me I tried everything). I found the easiest way around this is to simply lay your pinky down lightly onto the E string since it's pretty much almost there anyway. Problem solved. Takes a bit more effort to get all 4 of those fingers in to place than it would normally, but it's better than not being able to play a C chord at all.
I’m in the same boat. My fingers are just too skinny. So I’ve been using my thumb to mute the low E. I considered using my pinky, but I never tried. I’ll give it a go and see if that’s any better.
having a good C on the A string is more important than muting the E but you should work on hitting only the top 5 strings. Putting your finger a bit flat give you more surface on the tip of your finger and you can move it up a little; the fingertip can mute the E string. | LievenDV | JustinGuitar Official Guide
What gauge string do you recommend for the acoustic? I’ve been going with 10s,been playing for a while but switching back from electric,I’m suddenly struggling. I have a decent Taylor. Do you think I just need to get reused to it or go lighter. Have you done video covering this?
Does anyone know what guitar Justin is using in this lesson? My guitar is huge and makes it difficult to play for very long. Justin’s guitar looks like it’s a bit more comfortable to hold.
Must be Justins Maton - Michael Fix model (more info on J's guitars: www.justinguitar.com/guitar-lessons/justin-s-guitars-list-and-info-gg-001) | LievenDV | JustinGuitar Official Guide, Approved Teacher & Community Moderator
You can either mute or not play it, whatever is easier for you. However, if you chose to mute it, somehow you release your right hand to freely strum all strings.
I learned early on how to play the Cadd9 chord instead and I found it easier and I think it sounds better. I still use the "plain" C once in a while but not very often.
i remember my first c chord was with g on 6ths string, i have no idea who taught me it, but it might've been because you dont need to mute 6th string that way, so maybe it was easier for beginner
It’s kind of funny that the C chord is one of the last open major chords we learn in this curriculum, because I’m pretty sure it’s the first one I learned 😂
Perhaps, if you have 2 fingers that can do the work, you can try the "A shape barre"? if you play this chord SHAPE, with the index finger on fret 3 of the A string, you could do a C just as well? www.justinguitar.com/guitar-lessons/a-shape-major-barre-chord-grip-im-131 | You could also tune the lowest string 2 half tones down, so you can form major chords by holding down one fret across the 3 lowest strings by a finger of your choice. Playing minor chords might prove to become a challenge using this method though. don't forget that you only need 3 notes to play a major or minor chord. Check this lesson on triad chord grips to find other ways to find a C chord on the neck. www.justinguitar.com/guitar-lessons/triad-chord-grips-im-151| LievenDV | JustinGuitar Official Guide
When I was learning the C chord, the only way I could play it was moving my thumb down behind the neck. I know you're supposed to leave it up on the back of the neck, but I cant! I mute the high E string no matter what I do?
Sorry but do we play the thickest string when strumming the chord or not? If we're not going to play the thickest string, what's the point in muting it then?
You mute the E(6th) string either with your thumb or the ring finger whichever you prefer. I personally strum C chord like I'm strumming an A/Am chord because my fingers are fricking tiny smh
At the end of the day the E string is also a note that's played in a C chord. (A basic C chord is made up of the C E and G notes) It's not technically a "wrong" note. I wouldn't worry too much about it. Get the shape first and the change to another chord sorted and as you get better you'll probably find that you're dampening that low E string anyway.
So you don’t accidentally make it ring out and make the chord sound bad. Also a good intro to start using thumb for dexterity more then pure grip after strength is built up, my take on it anyways
Finger placement in this order is impossible to me. When i place my 2nd finger 3rd is going towards 2nd and I can not reach fret. My 3rd finger is always on the angle towards 2nd. I guess my fingers are fucked up and I won't be able to learn this correctly.
I was doing great with everything up until this point. 99% of the time I can't get the fingers in any position to not be muting strings. The 1% of the time I can get it to work after a minute of micro positioning my fingers, I then can't reproduce it and spend another minute of getting them in the right spot, which I can't always do. This is getting frustrating. I had issues with D but I think as the fingers got stiffer that got easier.. but C isn't getting any easier. Argh!
@@johnstack5008 Yes. It got easier/better. Fingers still had some toughening up to do. Now I'm just working on being able to mute the 6th string at the same time.
watche this video a while back, thought it was impossible (literally) went away and tried to learn some simple melody and noticed a month or so that i could reach much further now than before and the c chord was EASY on a high action 50$ guitar. i tried to play "it cant last" from "the last of us part 2" where you have to reach fret 5 and 2, and that seemingly did the trick as the c chord isnt even an issue anymore. defenitely thanks to Justinguitar. i would have given up if it wasnt for him.
Justin has chord charts and more all available under the lesson videos on the website. See here : www.justinguitar.com/guitar-lessons/the-c-chord-b1-501 cheers :) | Richard - MrClose 2u | JustinGuitar Official Guide [ www.justinguitar.com ] & Forum Moderator [ justinguitarcommunity.com/index.php ]
When you mute it, you don't have too worry too much about hitting it. Not hitting it all is cool of course. Muting the string does eliminate the risk of accidental hits or touches and scratches | LievenDV | JustinGuitar Official Assistant
If you would play the low E, that would be your lowest note. E is a chord tone, a note in the chord C major. (C, E and G). BUT, because the lowest note wouldn't be C, you would be playing a C/E. That's a C major with an E note as bass. Because that would be a "chord inversion", you might be interested in this video: www.justinguitar.com/guitar-lessons/chord-inversions-jumbled-triads-mt-404 | LievenDV | JustinGuitar Official Guide
@@justinguitar is ok to just not strum the 6th string so then I don’t have to mute it with my 3rd finger cause it makes the c chord so much harder for me
C is no problem for me but I always struggle with D, my sausage cluster isn't compatible with the positions required to get the E string to sound clear :D
I have small hands so D was no problem for me at all (other than the position being a bit awkward so switching to it fast is hard) and I actually struggled with C just because I didn't have enough finger real estate for the job lol. I kinda weaseled my way around it by just muting the E string with my pinky.
Great video thanks! I have been playing ukulele and found a few chords hard. Now I want to learn guitar but arthritis in my fingers make it near impossible for me to reach that C chord. 😥Is there a trick or easy version that sounds good as a substitute please?
So thorough! I've been a bad guitarist for a decade. I was trained as a bassist. I have almost every bad habit and no theory. So, thank you.
Of all the open chord shapes I learned the C chord was the toughest. I'm pretty sure this will be a very useful video for a lot of people. I'll be using it to perfect my grip. Thank You Justin.
Ive never thought to form the Am at first and then just move my 3rd finger.. thank you ! You have no idea how much this little thing helped me, Ive been struggling for months !
I think this could be a good chord change to practice: Am to C back and forth? 🤔😜
Thank you for the reassurance. I really appreciate hearing that this is one that takes a lot of practice at the beginning but it will improve. It's a real pill for me, and I might give up otherwise.
The single tip of rotating your hand so that the fingers are more together REALLY me helped taking the awkward feeling out of this chord! Thank you so much!
CHord progression: Dm, Am, to C helped me so much and it sounds good no matter how you strum it.
Getting better every day on the C chord. Fingers still sore but pushing through.Thanks for the encouragement.👍hardest chord so far.
This lesson is amazing . Everything is very briefly explained and I discovered so many tricks to make a perfect c chord .
I prefer to mute the E string with my thumb. It's so much more natural to me than trying to mute it with my 3rd finger. That seems like i'm trying to teach my fingers to not sit correctly on the strings if i do that.
Obviously everyone prefers different strategies with finger placing but just thought i'd mention this as other beginners may prefer to use the thumb.
Lisa Aaa I’m in the same boat with you (Or was since you probably are at another level since this comment)I’m doing it this way on acoustic but will obviously change the technique slightly when I get a electric guitar.
Are you supposed to mute or can you just no play it all? I'm confused because whenever I do it I just don't play the E string haha
@@lincolneyar8269 you can mute or just don’t play it at all if you’re that accurate at strumming
@@lincolneyar8269 Actually you can just avoid playing that E low string, but if you are strumming fast you may find that hard. So maybe it is wise to learn to mute right from the begining. Just an advice 😉
taking notes slowly
Thanks, Justin. I am a beginner and found your advice about angling the fingers and bringing the elbow closer to the body very helpful.
Wow mastering the Dm and finger stretching exercises in the previous lesson made this one really simple. Great progresion!
I took too much to start this lesson 5, I'v picked it up imediatly, that makes me happy since at the start I was doubting myself, thank's for the help!
Thanks Mate You'r an Amazing Teacher!
for some very weird reason, I actually got it right in first attempt.Thanks a lot Justin!
“Relooxted?” I love words that have two meanings! Your lessons are the greatest Justin.
😜🤓
Hey Justin ! You are definitely the most "relooxing" guy I ever watch on UA-cam! Thank you for your amazingly good guitar learning program!
anyone else really struggle changing between c chord and the g chord fluently ? ive been practicing it for a solid month now and i still struggle to do it quickly.
Yes, that one is kind of hard. I suggest keep practicing...OR...use Cadd9.
Maybe change to alternate fingering for g cord. But what can really help with any chord giving difficulty is to write a song with it.
If you're comfortable playing both chords by themselves, then I suggest checking out an older Justin's video called Air Changes. The idea behind it is that instead of placing fingers one by one, you'd start forming your next chord shape mid-air immediately after taking your fingers off of strings.
@@jobeyyyy I can switch from c to g pretty well, my fingers naturally do it without too much thinking, but going from g to c is much harder for some reason, my index and middle fingers move automatically but my ring finger doesnt for some reason, it just doesn't feel natural for me yet.
Just keep doing it, I'm only to do it after 2 solid months
Thank you for such clear instructions!
If I move my thumb a bit to the right, it's much easier for me to play the chord. Relaxing an arm is the best advice, Justin. Thank you very much, sir!
youre so awesome justin!
Did it in 2 days, thanks for the help
My initial way of doing this is to place the third finger first, the 2nd finger then 1st finger in that order. Much easier to stretch than putting the 1st finger in the the first fret second string and then the others. Hopefully as my fingers get more flexy, I should be able to place all three at once.
OK, so I've been trying to get the C chord for two weeks now doing exactly as you say, the problem is the back of my 2nd finger mutes the 3rd string B, could it be I just need a guitar with a wider nut width? my present guitar is 45mm, the trouble is guitars with a greater nut width are so expensive. Forgot to mention I'm doing finger style.
Awesome video to help with the mj C chord ! Thanks Justin 👍
You bet! If you want this type of lesson for beginner guitar check out the beginner course: www.justinguitar.com/classes/beginner-guitar-course-grade-one
Cheers 😊
| close2u | JustinGuitar Official Guide [ www.justinguitar.com/ ] & Moderator on JustinGuitar Forum
Wow That’s Cool The C Chord So Amazing!
Thank you Justin for your videos!
I just bought my Navy grandson a great Martin guitar.
I sent him your video to learn the c chord
Best teacher. Also first
Yep! He’s the reason I’ve learned the chords I have.
I found A minor with the 3rd finger moved over a good way to bridge the knowledge.
I couldn't manage to mute it with my ring finger so I used my thumb for it. Also, I couldn't manage to find a fretting finger to mute the 2 low strings while playing the D chord. I recommend using your thumb if you are struggling with muting the low strings.
I started to learn guitar many years ago, but I still include my pinky on the the 3rd fret bass E string, I don't know how I ever learnt that, but it's a habit that has been with me for years.
Ah you mean the more "classic" way to play a C chord, with the G on the low E string played as well? It is a regular C but, as you figured, with a G as lowest note, making your chord an 'inversion'. Feel free to mix use, depending on context. You might not always hear much difference but it sounds very obvious when you start fingerpicking | LievenDV | JustinGuitar Approved Teacher, Assistant and Community Admin
@@justinguitar Thanks for the reply. Actually, I got that wrong, it's my pinky that I put on the A string (3rd fret) and my ring finger on the E string (3rd fret).
thank you
I like to play it at the third fret using the B flat shape. If I do play it in first position I always play the full version.
I love playing am to c and back as a practice exercise..... Now i go d,a,em,e,am,dm
Thank you!
After you get this down. Try adding the Pinky trill or pull off from the 3rd fret 2nd string. A whole new challenge.
I have very small hands for someone of my height and build, just how I was born. In some ways that gives me a huge advantage on the guitar (no advantages at all on bass unfortunately lol) but one thing I found is that it is physically impossible for me to mute the E string with my ring finger, while at the same time getting a clean note on the A string, but also without deadening D string. Just not possible, there isn't enough finger real estate to go around (trust me I tried everything).
I found the easiest way around this is to simply lay your pinky down lightly onto the E string since it's pretty much almost there anyway. Problem solved. Takes a bit more effort to get all 4 of those fingers in to place than it would normally, but it's better than not being able to play a C chord at all.
I’m in the same boat. My fingers are just too skinny. So I’ve been using my thumb to mute the low E. I considered using my pinky, but I never tried. I’ll give it a go and see if that’s any better.
how do you get the C on the 5th string to not be buzzy whilst muting the E on the 6th?
having a good C on the A string is more important than muting the E but you should work on hitting only the top 5 strings. Putting your finger a bit flat give you more surface on the tip of your finger and you can move it up a little; the fingertip can mute the E string. | LievenDV | JustinGuitar Official Guide
Can I play C with fingers 1, 2, 4 instead of 1, 2, 3?
What gauge do you use?
What gauge string do you recommend for the acoustic? I’ve been going with 10s,been playing for a while but switching back from electric,I’m suddenly struggling. I have a decent Taylor. Do you think I just need to get reused to it or go lighter. Have you done video covering this?
Does anyone know what guitar Justin is using in this lesson? My guitar is huge and makes it difficult to play for very long. Justin’s guitar looks like it’s a bit more comfortable to hold.
Must be Justins Maton - Michael Fix model (more info on J's guitars: www.justinguitar.com/guitar-lessons/justin-s-guitars-list-and-info-gg-001) | LievenDV | JustinGuitar Official Guide, Approved Teacher & Community Moderator
Do you intentionally mute a dead string or can you just not play it?
You can either mute or not play it, whatever is easier for you. However, if you chose to mute it, somehow you release your right hand to freely strum all strings.
I learned early on how to play the Cadd9 chord instead and I found it easier and I think it sounds better. I still use the "plain" C once in a while but not very often.
Nice
you're the best
What if we use the thumb to mute the 6th string?
The guitar explodes
i remember my first c chord was with g on 6ths string, i have no idea who taught me it, but it might've been because you dont need to mute 6th string that way, so maybe it was easier for beginner
But you don't have to mute the 6th string. E is one of the notes.
RantKid Yes but if you have it in the bass it sounds pretty grim, imho
It’s kind of funny that the C chord is one of the last open major chords we learn in this curriculum, because I’m pretty sure it’s the first one I learned 😂
I can’t figure this out at all, I’m about to quit guitar entirely
Just keep trying
😂
Justin I've had severe damage to my fingers, I'm having real trouble with c can you give me some advice ?
Perhaps, if you have 2 fingers that can do the work, you can try the "A shape barre"? if you play this chord SHAPE, with the index finger on fret 3 of the A string, you could do a C just as well? www.justinguitar.com/guitar-lessons/a-shape-major-barre-chord-grip-im-131 | You could also tune the lowest string 2 half tones down, so you can form major chords by holding down one fret across the 3 lowest strings by a finger of your choice. Playing minor chords might prove to become a challenge using this method though. don't forget that you only need 3 notes to play a major or minor chord. Check this lesson on triad chord grips to find other ways to find a C chord on the neck. www.justinguitar.com/guitar-lessons/triad-chord-grips-im-151| LievenDV | JustinGuitar Official Guide
When I was learning the C chord, the only way I could play it was moving my thumb down behind the neck. I know you're supposed to leave it up on the back of the neck, but I cant! I mute the high E string no matter what I do?
Wait what ? My whole life it's been a lie !
Watching in 2024, this is my second month of guitar practice 🎉
Can some explain to me why it is called C when there is no C note in it same with B cords the rest kind of makes sense. Thank in advance ❣️
It’s a C note on the 3rd fret of the 5th string (A string).
There's 2 c notes I think. So yes there is .
Sorry but do we play the thickest string when strumming the chord or not?
If we're not going to play the thickest string, what's the point in muting it then?
Exactly...see my post above.
You mute the E(6th) string either with your thumb or the ring finger whichever you prefer.
I personally strum C chord like I'm strumming an A/Am chord because my fingers are fricking tiny smh
At the end of the day the E string is also a note that's played in a C chord. (A basic C chord is made up of the C E and G notes) It's not technically a "wrong" note. I wouldn't worry too much about it. Get the shape first and the change to another chord sorted and as you get better you'll probably find that you're dampening that low E string anyway.
So you don’t accidentally make it ring out and make the chord sound bad.
Also a good intro to start using thumb for dexterity more then pure grip after strength is built up, my take on it anyways
Finger placement in this order is impossible to me. When i place my 2nd finger 3rd is going towards 2nd and I can not reach fret. My 3rd finger is always on the angle towards 2nd. I guess my fingers are fucked up and I won't be able to learn this correctly.
anyone dont need this lesson but just curious to check if theyve done this?
I hold the C with my pinky, and, G with my third FINGER....COMPLETE C chord.
Can't do it impossible
Is there an alternate fingering
he just said it would be a bitch early on. keep trying and youl get it
After 1 year, id you finally figure out how to do the C chord?
I was doing great with everything up until this point. 99% of the time I can't get the fingers in any position to not be muting strings. The 1% of the time I can get it to work after a minute of micro positioning my fingers, I then can't reproduce it and spend another minute of getting them in the right spot, which I can't always do.
This is getting frustrating. I had issues with D but I think as the fingers got stiffer that got easier.. but C isn't getting any easier. Argh!
Same... we need time to practice
I have small hands so this one took me a long time. Did you get it after 2 weeks?
@@johnstack5008 yes but with so much suffer
@@johnstack5008 Yes. It got easier/better. Fingers still had some toughening up to do. Now I'm just working on being able to mute the 6th string at the same time.
It's still hard after 4 years for me 😅. But i have no dead notes.
watche this video a while back, thought it was impossible (literally) went away and tried to learn some simple melody and noticed a month or so that i could reach much further now than before and the c chord was EASY on a high action 50$ guitar.
i tried to play "it cant last" from "the last of us part 2" where you have to reach fret 5 and 2, and that seemingly did the trick as the c chord isnt even an issue anymore.
defenitely thanks to Justinguitar. i would have given up if it wasnt for him.
How come this finger position for C is not on most chord charts? Do you sell a chord chart?
Justin has chord charts and more all available under the lesson videos on the website. See here : www.justinguitar.com/guitar-lessons/the-c-chord-b1-501
cheers :)
| Richard - MrClose 2u | JustinGuitar Official Guide [ www.justinguitar.com ] & Forum Moderator [ justinguitarcommunity.com/index.php ]
Can someone just clarify as the question hasn’t been answered, when you mute the E string you do then strike it when playing the chord?
When you mute it, you don't have too worry too much about hitting it. Not hitting it all is cool of course. Muting the string does eliminate the risk of accidental hits or touches and scratches | LievenDV | JustinGuitar Official Assistant
Why I find the stretchy method much easier than that angle method??
I love D, G.... and i hate so much C 😞 Can't catch it fast from G
❤
Damn my short, stubby, Irish fingers!!
This was easier after learning that d minor
Why do we have to mute the 6th string?
If you would play the low E, that would be your lowest note. E is a chord tone, a note in the chord C major. (C, E and G). BUT, because the lowest note wouldn't be C, you would be playing a C/E. That's a C major with an E note as bass. Because that would be a "chord inversion", you might be interested in this video: www.justinguitar.com/guitar-lessons/chord-inversions-jumbled-triads-mt-404 | LievenDV | JustinGuitar Official Guide
@@justinguitar is ok to just not strum the 6th string so then I don’t have to mute it with my 3rd finger cause it makes the c chord so much harder for me
Can we just not strum the top string?
It sounds kak .
C is no problem for me but I always struggle with D, my sausage cluster isn't compatible with the positions required to get the E string to sound clear :D
I have small hands so D was no problem for me at all (other than the position being a bit awkward so switching to it fast is hard) and I actually struggled with C just because I didn't have enough finger real estate for the job lol. I kinda weaseled my way around it by just muting the E string with my pinky.
I can reach, I just struggle not muting strings by accident.
Hate this chord, i've long mastered the f chord but this one has become phsycological already.
Even when I follow what you are saying I still end up muting 3 the three strings your telling us not too. Its really annoying
Sorry, I meant can I play C with 1, 3, 4?
The problem for me isn’t hitting the strings it’s muting strings with my fingers
Can I just not play the thicker string
Great lesson but PLAY the STRING!
Another type of c chord
Haha what an easy chord (!)
Great video thanks! I have been playing ukulele and found a few chords hard. Now I want to learn guitar but arthritis in my fingers make it near impossible for me to reach that C chord. 😥Is there a trick or easy version that sounds good as a substitute please?