Adam Savage Upgrades His Lab Oven!
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- Опубліковано 26 бер 2024
- Why does Adam need a laboratory oven in his workshop? Adam explains the origins of this unique tool he makes use of on a regular basis, and implements a long-awaited upgrade to its front door: installing a digital temperature readout. But where's the best place to install the new thermocouple?
Shot by Adam Savage and edited by Joey Fameli
Music by Jinglepunks
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#adamsavage #onedaybuilds - Наука та технологія
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On behalf of Brandon who posted further down in the thread
"@BrandonBerrios
2 hours ago
I'm only mid-way through this video, but I feel the need to throw my hat in the ring here. I work for an equipment manufacturer, and we have made laboratory ovens for many years now! I can often get my hands on some refurb units that are very well priced, and they have fantastic temperature uniformity, and they all come with digital readouts, etc. I also have a fantastic line of vacuum ovens, if needed. Feel free to reach out if you ever needed something like that, as it would be a dream come true to connect my work with the channel that I watch while I work"
I would have cut a piece of tubing and run the wire on the side through it to prevent it getting snagged and ripped off. And I think it would be more aesthetically pleasing to the eye especially if you paint it to match. Use the wire clips to hold the tubing in place. And if you put the drill bit in a vise and put the dowel in the drill, it will self center the hole in the dowel. If you redo the control why not use a PWC? Extremely accurate and they "learn" so the heat is more consistent. It would also get rid of the display and probably fit in the same box.
Here's the rub. You had a decently calibrated oven, a kitchen thermometer and an Amazon special digital read out that's calibrated at a factory in China.
My two cents: should've never touched the dial on the oven, because now it's out of calibration. As neither the kitchen oven nor the digital dial are worth anything to base on.
Find the laser thermometer, find a material that the laser thermometer works good with as the target, place that in the oven, then calibrate all your readouts and dials based on that, calibrating by lowest setting over two hours and highest setting over 5 hours. Then you should be in a decent ballpark without having to change things.
The digital readout should have a pot on the back to set what the thermocouple reads. ALSO, extra, make a mount for the thermocouple inside the oven so it's both protected and stable, you don't want that thing dangling about. You also want to find (if possible) the spec sheet for that thermocouple, because it will tell you exactly how to affix it, usually, they should be inside a "bulb", separated from the actual oven interior.
My two cents, patience bit you off again Adam. Be more patient. :))
Perfect having the interface, they're great for warming up bonding adhesives before use
Zombie experiment request… 👀
Creatine Monohydrate HCL use and the possibility of leading to a zombie apocalypse. (Be careful)
In high school, I did an experiment to find the effects of creatine monohydrate HCL on mice. (I wanted rats but all I could find was feeder mice.) About a week into the experiment I reported higher levels of activity as the mice utilized a spinning wheel night and day, however, 4 days later one mouse died while I was sleeping. The mice were unusually quiet that night. When I checked them in the morning, the others had halfway eaten through the dead mouse. My experiment came to an abrupt halt as my results were inconclusive.
I started human trials at the college in my town using college athletes; gave each workout routines, endurance training, conditioning, dietary guidance (one vegan athlete) and weight training(Endurance and strength) I had constant contact with the students and always remembered to ask, “Have you had any urges to eat human meat?”
My 2nd experiment also resulted in inconclusive results as a test subject bit another student…
A myth started to circulate the gym world and people actually stopped buying creatine monohydrate for a while.
Research wisely my friends. Lmk if u need any guidance; I may have discovered a cure… 😉
Retired lab oven engineer here ..Temperature uniformity is usually measured with up to 9 probes per shelf. An oven without an internal fan is usually pretty bad. A forced- air oven is the best. A vacuum oven is the worst. Getting good uniformity is the bane of every oven manufacturer.
it is small enough and should be pretty accurate with only one probe. The fan would be a good upgrade if could find the right components
where would be the optimal place to put the tip of the thermocouple?
@@RYN988 inside :-) it is too small heated space
@@RYN988 Usually the control probe and indicator probe are next to each other. Hence the difficulty in obtaining good uniformity throughout the chamber. Regardless of design, the use case usually dictates the need for proper probe placement. Always best practice to run your oven with your best example of your load and test at various points (including taped to your load) can't tell you how many customers figured out years later that they were not getting their parts to the temp set on the controller.
@@chirculescuhoria2676not really. converting much smaller toaster ovens into PCB reflow ovens is quite popular, and everyone who does it learns this assumption is just.. wrong. Uniformity even even the space of a loaf of bread is widely variable.
The only solution is to be able to probe the item to be heated, or as close to it as possible. Thats why a cook puts the thermometer INTO the turkey.
For PCB work, I have a metal tray that the PCB sits on, and I tape the thermocouple to the tray, right next to the PCB. Otherwise, my oven either fails the cycle or doesn't fully reflow.
*Personally* I would have put the readout on the front panel between the heat/cycle LED and the power switch.
Could even keep the faceplate and just feed everything through a grommet. Such a nice self-contained area in that bottom compartment.
But then I've no idea what to do with the thermocouple. Snake it up in one of the side panels and poke it through I guess.
Thought about that too. Adam said the thermocouple lead was a bit short. May have needed to be longer to snake all the way to the top. Looks like the oven's heating elements are at the bottom, so not a great place for the thermocouple...
Yeah. Pop all that stuff in the bottom compartment and follow the other cable into the chamber.
That's exactly what I thought too. Odd choice.
Wouldn't the oven itself need a thermocouple for it's heat regulation? Any way to leech off of the one already integrated in the oven?
Maybe my fifth ever comment on a YT vid just to say this. I think he got set on what he wanted it to look like without considering other options, but yeah, it could have all been done to look like a factory design, but as long as it works well, it’s done right!
I work with extremely low temperature (
Nice saying!
I've had other engineers try and tell me the same thing, and i will say bullshit. You pick one to control to, but you need others to check that the control one has not failed. I always want more than pone channel of measurement for critical values. Even if the backups are non-linear or have an offset, you can use that to detect a failure in the primary channel. Redundancy is a GOOD thing.
Now, this may not work at extreme environments, i cannot comment on those as i don't work in that regime. But for industrial applications, you need to know when you have a bogus sensor, and the only realistic way is if you have other readings or sensors that you can use to determine if you have a bad instrument.
For example, i might have a radar or ultrasonic instrument for measuring tank level. But you bet your boots i want either sight glass level switches or float switches that i can use to double check my analog measurement. Or better yet, TWO analog level measurements. If the levels vary beyond a dead band, one of the sensors is having an issue, or something else is going on and somebody needs to go and look at the system and find out what.
Maybe in a lab you only need one instrument, but in the real world, you need as many as you can get! I carry more than one DMM for that precise reason. If one starts giving me odd readings, i have a backup meter i can double check with.
@@jeromethiel4323 Yep, this guy knows what he's talking about. You never rely on 1 point of failure. There's always going to be variation between thermometers, but they should be reading close. If they're not, then you cannot trust either one's readings until you've confirmed which is the broken one using a third thermometer.
I keep a bunch of thermometers around, and once a year I pick 1 of them at random and have it checked and certified traceable to NIST by a local metrology lab, then check all of them against that 1 when it returns from certification and discard any that differ by more than a few degrees. I don't do bakes without at least 2 thermometers in place.
But my bakes are usually an oven roughly the size of a 40ft high cube shipping container, with the occasional bake of the lining of a tank that won't fit inside that oven.
That means that if your system fails you're unaware of where you are in the world. Big mistake. You want to have multiple readings.
In this case (above) Adam has one Amazon (nuff said) reading, one kitchen oven reading (also nuff said) and one mid grade oven that's probably within spec until the dial was loosened and therefore lost calibration altogether. So that's where the problem is.
In other words, a mess.
You want a quality reading, a method to check that and a calibrated one at that.
But for home gamers, you just find a laser thermometer, which is good enough (from a good brand, not the Amazon ones) and work with that.
@@jeromethiel4323 Totally agree. When you are renting a wind tunnel from the government at thousands of dollars per hour, you measure every experiment at least 3 ways, and log it three ways. So that in the worst case scenario, you at LEAST have all the critical data recorded in your run log notes.
Differences in multiple sensors measuring the same thing can be compared, calibrated or compensated (even long after the experiment took place, provided you took regular baselining data).
Redundancy is not only critically important, its necessary. (insert redundant comment here).
I *like* the quote, but only if it is followed up with an essay on why you should care about what "knowing the temperature" actually means. Relying on only one sensor really means that you have accepted, on faith, that that sensor is correct and accurate. But even if you have proven it in the lab, it could have become faulty before or during the experiment. But you are like "I have one thermometer. Therefore I know the temperature. If i had more than one, I would be confused by all this conflicting data." The point of this saying is to illustrate how foolish you have been. I asked my American friend what his favorite cheese was. He said Cheddar. Therefore all Americans love Cheddar.
The true meaning of the sage advice is "If you have one thermometer, you THINK you know the temperature (but you possibly don't). If you have many thermometers you THINK you have conflicting data (but you probably don't. You have a more complete picture. DO THE WORK)."
Be a scientist. calibrate and normalize your sensors. Learn when to trust them and when not to. Expect them to back and confirm each other, and when they no longer do, throw them out.
Adam is single handedly keeping Snapple in business
I drank them a bunch as a teenager, but they got rid of my favorite flavor: Snapricot Orange.
@@Shadoweclipse1386they're not the same without the glass
That's still a thing?
I was unaware there was a flavor other than that.@@Shadoweclipse1386
@@reddevved Honestly, if they still had my favorite flavor, I wouldn't care that it was in plastic, haha
Years ago, I used to use lab ovens of various sorts and sizes in an industrial hazards lab. We used to make thermocouples by the bucket load because we were testing for exothermic decomposition of bulk powders. I was once tasked with looking at the temperature distribution in some of the ovens and so constructed a framework which allowed me to position thermocouples around the oven and logged the temp over time. If I remember correctly, the non-fan ovens had massive temperature variations.
came here to say something similar - i'm surprised he put the thermocouple at the top when most workpieces will (presumably) be lower
A former lab oven engineer pretty much said the same thing in another comment. Saying that his single probe in an oven without a fan would not give him an accurate temperature reading without having multiple probes.
In my opinion I was thinking it’s what convection ovens cook better and more evenly than ovens without fans.
@@P-J-W-777 this is the exact premise of the modern air fryer. Forced convection is king when it comes to uniform cooking.
I think that Adam missed an opportunity to placing the digital display in the false bottom in the black next to the other controls. Otherwise another great video.
Yeah, that was my first thought when he tipped it over. Plenty of space, would have looked super clean with the other controls. Maybe not great access for the sensor, also near the heat element?
I like better on top. Easier viewing access.
Harder to see at a quick glance though. Where he put it makes sense to me
a taller stand would take care of that. @@edwardtocco5760
I wouldnt' call it a false bottom though.
Adam,
If you have an instant read thermometer you trust, then set the oven at 200 degrees with a beaker of water inside. Give it twenty minutes to soak at the temperature and then measure the water temperature. That is the easiest way to test an ovens temperature without getting a certified thermocouple. Just check your thermometer in a bowl of ice water first to guarantee it is reading 32 degrees, meaning it is accurate.
I'm only mid-way through this video, but I feel the need to throw my hat in the ring here. I work for an equipment manufacturer, and we have made laboratory ovens for many years now! I can often get my hands on some refurb units that are very well priced, and they have fantastic temperature uniformity, and they all come with digital readouts, etc. I also have a fantastic line of vacuum ovens, if needed. Feel free to reach out if you ever needed something like that, as it would be a dream come true to connect my work with the channel that I watch while I work 😊
@Tested (Might work if you sent this as a reply to Tested's opening comment on this thread)
When you say "very well priced"...? Some of us may be interested...
@@ljg6979 Watch places like craigslist. I bought two 8 cubic foot Quincy digital controlled ovens for $300 each. The seller said his company had sent 50 to the landfill. I guess he got the ovens he was selling for free... So awesome deals exist if you keep your eyes open. Right place, right time....
The fact that Adam apologizes for the Fahrenheit system and then gives us a history lesson is why we love him.
Most of that is not true, BTW, it's just stuff Fahrenheit made up after the fact.
I always like to throw out there that Daniel Gabriel Fahrenheit was Polish/Dutch!
We didn't create this monster lol. We just irrationally cling to it.
But his explanation for the numbers was wrong - not what Farenheit based it on at all, but a later reworking to try and make it make sense.
@@BallisticTech It's only a "monster" because the rest of the world decided to go with Celsius instead. Unlike with most other metric/SI units there's no inherent advantage of Celsius over Fahrenheit, they both just picked two arbitrary but reproducible fixed points and divided the temperature range in between into even divisions. And since on both scales in everyday life there's really no need for smaller or larger subdivisions (because outside of high-precision lab equipment you're already hard pressed to measure accurately to one or maybe half a degree, so no need for fractional units, and temperatures you typically encounter in everyday life don't span many orders of magnitude) you don't have any nonsense similar to "inch - foot - yard - mile" or so with either scale. BTW, the *original* Celsius scale as devised by Anders Celsius himself was arguably more "monstrous", as he put the melting point of water at 100° and the boiling point at 0°. It was only flipped around the way we are used to today more than half a century after his death.
@@blahfasel2000 Presumably after concreting over his grave to prevent him from rising up and making us change it back.
Now you just need to weather it.
Nice!
everyone here complaining about its location on the door, but this is what i really want to see.
Ha!
@@chrisgenovese8188 i was hoping he would paint the box to match the door, and put a wire hiding track on the side to disguise everything.
Re: Fahrenheit, it wasn't a calibration error per se; zero was chosen as the freezing point of a 50% salt brine solution. Why that was chosen instead of plain water I do not know, but it was an intentional choice.
Plain water freezing temperature is more dependent on barometric pressure. Brine solution's density helps eliminate that variability.
Could it be that a salt brine solution covers most of the planet? Granted, sea water is a much lower salt to water solution.
The more I learn about the Fahrenheit scale, the worse it seems to get. 😅
@@MattWeberits much easier to get close to 0% salt water than to 50% - getting 50% most likely starts with distilled anyway, super weird choice
@Milten130 but zero salinity is more affected by barometric pressure. Tried to find a scale that literally can work anywhere if you had saltwater regardless of barometric pressure.
Why , Adam, did you not put the instrument flat on the bottom black panel : there is plenty of space. Then you could use the same pass port the thermocouple used by the thermostat...
In the spirit of "anything worth doing is worth overdoing," I would have thought you'd use a PID with a proper thermistor at all three levels.
Yep. I'd have a separate thermocouple or thermistor for each rack since each may have a slightly different temperature.
First thing that came to my mind, too.
Why not just mount the thermometer in the space on the black front panel, between the thermostat and the power switch.
I was muttering this to myself the entire time.
When he was worried about us yelling at the screen, this is what I was yelling. 😅
I came to say this..
I thought the same thing. Then have the thermistor go up from the bottom.
Then no need for the project box
You'll need to have the thermocouple probe all the way in the enclosure. You might need to have it fixed to the back wall or top wall.
Also you might be getting different readings as your thermocouple probe is on top and the existing thermocouple probe is I would believe near the heating element at the bottom, you've also placed the oven thermometer at the bottom which is near the heating element. As there is no air circulation, you would not be able to get the same temperature reading at the bottom and top. This is because the power to the heating element will be turned off when the bottom thermocouple reads the temperature that you have set.
I've never shouted at the screen so loud at any of these videos! YOU'RE HOOKED TO THE LOAD SIDE OF THE STAT!!!!
All that room underneath, where the controls already are, why not install down there? Follow the existing thermocouple. No dangling wires outside.
Just FYI you cannot simply extend the cable for the thermoucouple. There are multiple reasons. One being that a thermocouple measures known mV changes caused by different expansion rates of 2 metals. The cable used to extend should be of the same type, eg. K, J, R, S, etc. Another issue is that every time that a you make a join, this join forms another thermocouple which affects the accuracy of your readout due to temperature being measured at various points and "fighting" each other. Also valid points made by others regarding actual placement of the probe, etc.
As long as the joint and the display are held to the same temperature, it should not affect the reading, that's the Law of Homogeneous Circuit. He would need to splice in the wire, as in, cut the wire and make the intermediate wire joined to the cut thermocouple wire at both ends of the cut. The first point is the Law of Intermediate Metals, and if they are conductive, they should not affect the overall circuit it if a new metal is added, again, spliced in and held to the same temperature at each of its joint.
A joint only creates a thermovoltage when the two parts are of different conductors. Extending thermocuples are super easy... just take the same material wires and weld or mechanically press them together. Also "expansion rates" has nothing to do with this, the voltage comes from a small charge carriers going from one material to the other, which size is dependent on temperature.
I love how enthusiastic the automated captions are about calling everything "[Music]" including Adam slapping things XD
Whenever I see that in the captions of a video I think of the movie Hunt for Red October, when Jones is talking about the sonar identifying readings of the silent submarine drive as seismic phenomena. It was originally designed for geology, so when it gets confused it "goes crying home to mama"! UA-cam seems to have its own version of that 😂.
Two thoughts: One, it is clear Adam came up with an idea to put the work box and display on the door of the oven and got fixated on that. Two, as soon as he pulled the bottom off the oven, me and several dozen other people in the comments went....why don't you put everything in the bottom and put the readout between the temperature control and on/off switch. It's funny how that works.
I think it all has to do with the length of the sensor wire.
I have this exact same oven among a few more. I actually use them in a lab setting and the temperature swing varies widely as you will soon notice. I have added a digital thermal control unit with a solid state relay. It dramatically holds temperature better than the dial.
I used a BBQ thermometer from lowes on my powder coating oven. Comes with thermo couple and digital display. Has input for 2 probes. Runs on 2 AAA batteries. Was like 17$ works amazing. 5 min install.
Thought I would pitch in with a bunch of information I have learned over the years working in environmental validation, metrology and service engineering in the Pharmaceutical science industry.
Before you can look at calibrating your oven, first I think its important to understand the way this type of oven would typically control its internal temperature (I can not say for sure as I have never seen this exact model of oven previously but I have seen many like it)
This type of oven has a "dumb" way to control itself. It supply's maximum power to its heating element until its internal probe reaches the set temperature then, it cuts power to the heating element which often creates a large overshoot in temperature. Once the temperature goes back below the set point, it will send power to the heating elements again causing it to heat again. This will make the temperature trace over time constantly cycle up and down lets say +/-10C (a rough random guess)
This also explain as to why your temperature monitor kept turning on and off to start with as it was probably wired to the same power rail as the heating element. This can also be seen via the red light indicating heating on the bottom left of the oven. The temperature readout was on when the light was illuminated indicating heating on and the readout had no power when the heating light was out.
Now onto measuring the temperature. Two of the most important aspects of measuring the temperature inside of an environmental chamber (in this case your oven) is air circulations and location of the control/measuring probe/s. Your oven may seem like a small space however even in this small space stagnant air can cause hot/cold spots across the oven which can vary greatly (like your seeing with about +/-10F). This is normally caused by the heating elements heating up the side of the oven first then that heat transferring into the chamber itself. Now, the thermal transfer of energy from the heating element to the metal walls of the oven is fairly efficient however, transferring that heat from the metal walls of the oven to the air inside the chamber is not very efficient so it takes time to heat up the air. As this air is stagnant, it is often warmer closer to sides of the chamber. This is also reversed on sides that do not have a heating element. The warmer air inside the chamber has to heat up the metal walls that do not have heating elements and that transfer of heat is not efficient either. This also explains why you was getting very different readings when you had your probe attached to the celling of the oven than when you had it hanging from the celling.
Now, the control probe (the one that adjusts the ovens heaters) is often located near the edge the chamber and will typically heat up faster than lets say the air in the middle of the chamber.
This is one of the reasons why you are seeing differences on all 3 of your temperature reading devices across the oven. Another is it seems as though none of these sensors are calibrated to a known reference standard so its impossible to say with any reasonable certainty which sensor you can trust. Even though some of these (likely the ovens controlling probe) have been calibrated in the past, temperature sensors are known to drift quite drastically over time often 0.2c - 0.5c per year. As your oven seems to be fairly old, this could have acuminated a large amount of drift
I cant say for sure as I don't know the exact model of temperature reader that your TC is attached to however these type of readers typically only have a accuracy or +/-2C so from my experience so this is also where inaccuracy is coming from.
The type of TC you use to measure the temperature inside the chamber can also matter depending what your looking for and what you care about in your process. The metal jacketed TC you have is great for stability over time, however it will be very slow to react. This means opening and closing the door wont affect it too much but if you leave the door open for 2 mins and the oven drops 50C, it will take a long time to measure the change. If you use a more traditionally welded tip TC, this will react much faster to temperature change as it is only measuring at the tip of the TC and a blow in the wind will affect the temperature readout. it all depends on your process and what you care about. For dehydrating food, the metal jacketed probe does seem more suitable overall.
You could look at other type of sensors like a PT100 which is typically a lot more accurate however this is more of a pain to implement, more expensive and often requires an amplification circuit.
The most important thing by far to get as even of a temperature across the chamber as possible is simply adding a fan inside the chamber itself. This does not have to be large or powerful fan however, it is incredibly important to circulate the air inside the chamber to get as stable of a temperature as possible.
I have a lot of experience with highly accurate environmental chambers that often keep their set point temperature within the whole chamber of about +/- 0.2c and its always amazing to me that even though they can control, Temperature,CO2, Oxygen, Humidity and other environmental factors, the most important part is the fan. Without it moving air around the chamber constantly, it creates high and low spots of different environmental factors. You can easily tell when the fan has gone as the chamber starts to read very odd.
long story short, my recommendations is adding a fan which can withstand the temperatures you require into the chamber will make it preform a lot better/make it way more efficient.
If you really want the best accuracy, I suggest getting a calibrated known probe of a higher accuracy (typically 4x greater than the resolution of your probe) and measuring the center of the chamber
With all of this said, there is vary few applications even in science where heating anything in a larger open air space like this +/- 10% of the set point makes a big difference when you get over 200C.
Now at below 50c when your culturing cells in incubators or testing stability of samples in different simulated environments like a hot dessert or a cold frozen tundra, accuracy really matters but above this, I have not seen many cases where it needs high accuracy.
If you ever want to know more about any measurement including mass, temperature, humidity, pressure etc or how the sensors work, feel free to message me
I was pointing at the front panel and saying "or you can mount it here" the entire time, but the look he had on his face at the end knowing he was going to be dragged by the comment section showed again how humble this gentleman is. Looking forward for an update on this project in a future video.
the Walken "foo FIGHTers" out of nowhere was a pleasant surprise.
OK so why on the DOOR which will have mechanical force applied against the wire when opened and closed, and not at the control panel bottom, where all the controls are?
I was wondering the same. I guess because the thermocouple routing. Many ways to do the same thing.
For the cool factor. 😎
Thank you Adam. I was today years old when I learned 212-32=180
same!
I worked on deep space craft. The thermal sensor probably feeds an A-D converter. A-D converters are NEVER linear. We implemented a conversion function on each such sensor. If you want better accuracy put a micro computer in the loop and have a conversion function. I can send you code for the conversions if you are interested. I have it in Java, Ruby, Python, Perl, and C with a little searching. You did good with using more than one temperature for calibration. Any sensor that is not calibrated is worthless.
I really enjoy the acoustic stories Adam's hands tell us along the way.
I bought a lab drying oven years ago and used it so often, it only goes to ~ 150C but made to be on 24/7 . Perfect for warming bearings, welding rods, ceramic tile pre-drying, softening polymorph. Double door with glass inner so you can view contents without letting the heat out. Inspired to make a digital readout for it. Nice work.
Your cleaning tip is such a fundamental element for any maker /tinker /artist
Thank you for being a positive role model for those of us who recognize it
EMP button should be like a master switch for all the lights in the shop, great way to end the day. Something you interact with every day for that little jolt of satisfaction, but not constantly so as to wear it out.
Adam needs to try being Canadian. I am 5 foot 10, it is -3 Celsius outside, I set my oven to 400 degrees Fahrenheit, and I drive my car up to 100 KM per hour….and I weigh my self in pounds.
Thank you for that. Those examples are my way also. I was born in the late sixties and the swap from F to C didn't work 100% on me.
Also bothersome, is going grocery shopping these days and seeing the mixed units!
At the grocery store I buy produce in pounds but bulk items in grams.
I use km/h for driving speed but if I watch a car race I only understand mph speeds.
Love watching your videos Adam, shows that you love your fans enough to envolve them with your projects, James from Scotland
My powder coating oven is the gutted shell of a clothes dryer that I insulated and transplanted house oven guts into.
I've done a similar thing in my garden shed, I built a box from old pc side panels, lined the box with glass fibre loft insulation and fitted our old house oven in to it. And now have a completely free powder coating oven. It's quite roomy aswell I've fitted up to 13 inch car wheels in it before.
I made black garlic using a rice cooker set on warm (about 140°F). It took about a month, and boy was it fragrant for a lot of that time
One of my favorite sayings: A man with a watch knows what time it is. A man with two watches is never sure.
As someone who has worked with these exact ovens and verification/calibration.. The position of the Thermo is important.. Also, use a accurate external thermometer and just put some mark on the dial to indicate the temperature.. We used different colored paint and wrote it on a 3x5 card attached to the door.
I have a quincy lab oven like this and I took out the original control knob/wiring and installed a PID temp controller with a thermocouple. It gives you a lot more control and the PID controllers are not expensive.
One caution about many of these controllers. If the thermocouple breaks, the controller thinks the temperature is low, and turns on the heat full blast until the weakest link melts. It is possible to get controllers that have a second thermocouple on a safety circuit to prevent over temperature events.
Great job. Thank you 😊
Man.. I was trying to make a black garlic powder unsuccessfully for three years! I kept wondering what I was doing wrong.. it must be an issue with Vegas’ lack of humidity. My grandmother made this delicious black garlic butter bread.. I eat a ton of butter bread- but it just doesn’t taste right. The ovens are too expensive- I’ll just stick with my regular oven and work with some humidifiers to try to get that recipe right! Gratitude
I was always told to use redundant instruments only in critical applications and, even then, to designate a primary. Otherwise, operators never know which one to believe. 😆
You can make black garlic in a slow cooker leaving on low for 2 weeks also.
True enough... But now he's got a fully justified digital temperature display on his lab oven!! LOL
First: why did you put a control panel display on the door instead of what seems like the obvious place... the control panel? Second: did you wire the display's 12v supply to the thermostatic switch so it only got power when the oven was heating?
Control panel obvious location? Not to me and apparently not Adam 😱
@@charlesjohnsjr.5809 The location at the bottom where the knob and light are. Nice spot in the middle for it. But I would have mounted to the door and just put the probe through the door as well. would have kept wires cleaner potentially.
@@baseball43v3r and neither of us can comprehend the mind of Adam Savage. There was a reason he just didn’t explain it.
@@charlesjohnsjr.5809 Well the number of comments like mine indicate that it was pretty obvious to others. Also, I didn't rule out the fact that Adam considered that obvious spot before rejecting it for some unstated reason. That's why I asked the question of why he didn't use that location. Maybe the thermocouple lead was too short. Maybe he wanted the display up higher for better visibility... who knows. That's why we ask questions... to learn. "Be curious, not judgmental." -Walt Whitman
@@charlesjohnsjr.5809 Again, that's why I asked the question.
Why did you not put it beside the power switch instead of where you did?
Love the video , the oven looks great Adam .
I think you should pf went with a PID and put it next to the stock red light. With a pid you can progran the ramp up to temp time, how long to sustain the temp, and to drop temp at whatever rate you chose, among other things...
Always find it admirable how willing Adam is to drill holes in really expensive equipment.
The standard monitoring technique for these cheaper ovens is an old fashioned glass thermometer (~350C) wedged in the hole in top. I can see the advantage of the digital display, but in terms of calibration I'd stick with the glass to get your "accurate" reading...but even then, as you noticed, there's a strong temperature gradient between top and bottom internally. Nice idea with replacing the main knob, if it's anything like ours the little grub screw doesn't have a particularly strong grip and it's easy to torque out of whack, I always double check the end points of the rotation are where they should be before doing anything particularly temp sensitive. Given the range of failure modes I'll sometimes have a "dummy run" with a spirit thermometer in the same place as my test subject, e.g. if I'm incubating petri dishes at 37C I'll load it up with blanks and check the temp variations *for that shelf when loaded* every half hour for a few hours. (Yeah, they're good at maintaining lower temps...if you can work out the dial setting, it becomes more tricky the lower you go.)
My dad grew up with imperial units (we're Canadian), but we use metric now. For a long time he said he would like to be able to change it in his brain, but he just couldn't do it. Then he got a thermostat that just showed both F and C at the same time, and just seeing that conversion every day was enough that he can now comfortably use celsius.
If you want to get all fancy, shmancy, you could get a NIST traceable calibration heat block to make sure the thermocouple and readout actually are reading the temperature properly. Of course, for $3000, you could probably find much more fun things to buy!
To get an accurate temp the thermocouple need to be in same position. There could be a temp variance from top to bottom of cabinet. Depending where the product is in the cabinet I used to have temperature sensors around 2/3 up from bottom near the rear allowing for thermal circulation. I am 74 and enjoy watching Tested.
Hey Adam, I've been watching my way all the way through Mythbusters and just got to Lead Balloon. I had forgot how mesmerizing your cube was. Not to mention how much I can actually remember from watching Mythbusters as a kid.
If you don't need to get too hot a used food warmer/oven is a good choice. I have one that used to keep pizza hot. Now it tempers my steel. It is essentially exactly this oven, just for food so it's not quite as well built.
They used high-temp wire, I’m not sure that I would have used lampcord, and also screwed the power supply to an area that looks like it will get fairly warm.
If you want accuracy, you need something with a Pt100 type sensor (3-wire) and to hang the sensor near the middle. But that type of sensor and the unit to read it would be significantly more expensive.
You might also want to put a fan in to blow the air around, at least for testing purposes.
I can see the follow-up video already: Remounting the Display on My Quincy Lab Oven.
You really should mount the readout and thermocouple lower, on the panel. Not sure the hobby box is needed, or the right call for a lab oven.
Pronouncing ‘Foo Fighters’ Christopher Walken-style made me realize we’re pretty close in being in the same UA-cam-Rabbithole 😂
I thoroughly enjoyed watching this.
Say whatever else you want but a thermometer that uses F as the scale instead of C has more increments of temp between freezing and boiling which makes each increment more granular than C which can mean it is more accurate- even if the math is not divisible by 10 - anyway it should all just switch to K (and talking about normal home use where you only get limited accurate readout - of course if you have 4 or more significant digits on a lab calibrated C thermometer it is very accurate)
Picture is looking good. Nice upgrade. 👌
Interesting weekend project. Lab oven is a great little tool. It was a bit hard to tell from the video, but NTC thermistors (often encapsulated in glass), provide very accurate temperature measurements with minimal drift-typically within a tenth of a degree. Just cost a few dollars.
In contrast, thermocouples, which rely on dissimilar metals, are less precise and can drift over time, with accuracy around +/- a few degrees Celsius and most likely what you have.
For geeking out on lab ovens you can for enhanced accuracy, might consider configuring your sensors in a Wheatstone bridge or integrating an additional sensor, and if you're using the oven for processes like curing, it could be beneficial to implement temperature profile controls. For instance, you could set it to maintain 150 degrees for an hour, increase to 250 degrees for four hours, and then gradually return to room temperature over twelve hours. Probably some free arduino projects that exist. Anyway love your videos.
You should have seen the sign of the lab ovens I had to use, 1 was 2.5 ft tall inc the base.
Another was 5ft long about 2ft high for drying aggregates and limestone and sands and filler dust.
But put it on , on a winter days you didn't want to move lol (UK winters)
Industrial Ovens are no joke. They are a huge part of the semiconductor manufacturing process so tons of second-hand options if you know where to look.
We have tons of those exact ovens at my tech job for curing and testing electronics for aerospace
At a previous institution I managed thermocouples inside a CIGS reactor chamber. This brought up some good (and painful) memories. I think what you need to add to your shop is a thermal calibrator. I have one, an Omega CL3515R. Such a cool device for checking and setting up an oven or other TC-readout systems!
Also, get yourself a roll of Type-K wire :)
Your always good for knowledge and a good laugh.Thank you.
Thanks for information Adam an Tested Crew
Laughing in Celsius 😂
And Kelvin laughs are celsius being based on the freezing and boiling point of water. Fahrenheit is better for everyday use as the granularity is better, Celsius is better for water and cooking, And Kelvin is better on cosmic scale.
Don’t quote me exactly in this because there are a thousand better sources but the use of 360 and 180 etc is actually really smart because in the days before calculators, things measured with these number systems were very easily divisible into halves / thirds / quarters / fifths / sixths etc. In other words it has many more complete simple divisors. I believe imperial measurements also hark back to this but again, others will explain it better or more completely. Thanks as always mate, love your stuff!
3D Printed project boxes are awesome. Easy to size however you like, and trivial to make whatever shaped holes you need.
Can also 3d print grommets to protect the wires from sheet metal.
Custom printed project boxes are one of the reasons I was very excited when I got my 3D printer. I understand it looks like Adam had one on hand, however, the custom route would allow a smaller enclosure tailored to the exact measurements you need.
Used em very often in Organic Chemistry research labs, drying glassware and molecular sieves.
I see you walk back and forth to your drill bit index to your fractional drill gauge. I’ve attached mine to my drill index itself with small disc magnets. Saved me steps. Just an idea.
Hi Adam. Would like to recommend the wago connectors. Much better and safer than the screw-connectors imo. But who am i kidding, you prob have 2 sortimos full of them lol. Love the content buddy. Happy easter everyone
I was a commercial kitchen appliance technician for 6 years in the Bay Area. I’ve learned a lot on troubleshooting complex Ovens and warming cabinets. I found that ovens that don’t have a convection fan won’t have even heat. I noticed Adam having his temperature gauge at the very bottom, as for his probe being at the top. This will cause a few degrees difference when testing. Even with the heating element at the very bottom temperatures won’t be consistent unless there’s a fan circulating the air inside the chamber. Hopefully this might help.
I agree the I would have installed the display in the front control panel. I am assuming that Adam wanted to use the oven’s existing thermometer hole in the oven, so that is why he had to mount the digital thermometer higher up. As for the thermometers reading differently, it is all about placement of your probe/thermometer. If you could mount the display in the lower panel and colocated the digital thermometer’s thermocouple with the oven’s control thermocouple you would likely have the two reading the same.
As for the oven thermometer, try placing it higher up in the oven. Closer to the digital thermometer’s probe.
Also by any chance do you have any Bakelite or teflon tubing? That should hold up better than wood as your thermocouple insulator.
Put temp display on toe kick. Less wires on outside and a cleaner polished look.
Great Video as always Adam!
I winced when you started drilling into the body of the oven. It's that moment of "commit!" That happens for me even it's happening to you. Brovo! I have no temperature expertise to bring to this endevor, only my respect.
adam: i dont want to put shop stuffs in a food oven
also adam: I'm upgrading this shop oven to put foods stuff in
It reminds me of a saying I once heard and I just learned is called Segal's law: A man with one watch knows what time it is, a man with two watches is never sure. in your case, you have three. I always enjoy watching you.
I'm American & now I have to go down a Google rabbit hole about Fahrenheit vs Celsius so I can learn the history of it. It actually sounds pretty fascinating😂 I swear I'm such a nerd🤦
Hey Adam. With regards to the kitchen dial probe... If it has adjustment then you can just boil it then turn the screw on the back to correct to 100C or 212 in Yeehaw units.
Did about the same thing you did for a draw oven. Got a Blue-M lab oven from HGR Industrial Surplus in Euclid Ohio for a hundred bucks. Then I got a cheap-o PID and SSR off eBay for somthing under 30 bucks. - It's about the same height and width as yours but is like twice as deep. - I can push it to a steady 600F and it will draw back 4140 parts all day long and holds +/- 3 degrees. - I got less then $150 in the whole thing.
I highly recommend anybody needing a draw oven to check out HGR - Even with shipping you are money ahead of "toaster" ovens. You can use it for powder coating, and it's an actual industrial piece of equipment.
Hey Adam you could have use a Dremel cutting wheel and made a hole in existing lower control panel and mount the Temp display there. Then Drill straight up into the chamber for the thermoreceptor - I have a friend I helped do exactly that and it looks like it came with it!
One of the things to understand about Fahrenheit is that setting your initial standard for an earth centric temperature scale is very hard, and "water freezing" is not consistent unless you have very pure (distilled) water, so 0 ended up being set by a brine which is more easily replicated by other people as you can just make a saturated brine and it will (effectively) be the same every time, toss in a bunch of ice and extra salt and your reference will be much more consistent. Functionally, both Fahrenheit and Celsius are wrong, as either Rankine or Kelvin actually translate to heat transfer in a much more meaningful way, but both are effectively random scales humans pulled out of our posteriors.
Imperial force, mass, and length measurements are where everything sucks. Pounds mass vs. force was the point where I just decided to do everything in metric because it confused me too much and converting was going to lead to less errors.
If you want to do a quick calibration on your thermocouple, I would suggest using boiling water to set an initial calibration point.
I know a lot off people would probably say something about how you do your work. There's nothing I can say but go ahead and keep it up because I would do it just as you do. GREAT JOB ADAM
In the laboratory, those ovens are typically used with an external temperature probe because, as you saw, they are not perfectly calibrated for every possible temperature over a range you might use. Also there is temperature variation from top to bottom and left to right by a few degrees, so depending on where your thermal couple is you may not be getting the exact temperature your sample is experiencing.
We have the same oven for Cerakote. Only issue I’ve had is at 350 if I don’t keep a fan blowing on it to circulate air under it…it will pop its safety. Took me a minute when it first happened until I flipped it over n opened the bottom to find the reset switch.
Agreed I was shouting all that room underneath and the power connector let alone already area for a thermo couple.
Much like baking in a home oven, radiant heat from the element vs ambient heat in the air, that's why your biscuits burn on the bottom before the tops brown if you don't use a hollow baking sheet or a second baking sheet on the rack underneath. Put the oven thermometer on the top shelf and a pan on the middle shelf (or other metal to shield the radiant heat) and check again.
When I first clicked, I wondered if you were going to replace the controller with a digital one. I have an old analog Kiln from the 70's that I would like to upgrade someday.
Just to be different, I'm gonna say that where you put the reading display on the door is perfect. Much easier to read and no need to bend down to see it.
Everyone talking about the area down by the controls for the readout...
1. It depends on where the item is placed. If that would end up being at waist height you probably don't want it there vs. something closer to eye level.
2. It makes running the thermocouple harder (which can be worked around) but still.
Calibration related: The controllers thermocouple looks like it's in the bottom, while your measurement one is in the top. That could easily explain the 5~10° difference without some air circulation.
I'm from Canada. We use all the systems for measuring various things. Height: Ft/In. Weight: lb. (unless you are buying lunch meat, then grams) Distance: KM. Weed: g OR oz.
I, personally, would have put a PIC controller in it. A very nice display, configurable temperature swings, able to be calibrated, and it would look factory. I just added one to my filament dryer.
Tech insight here.
1. Was your initial problem tge you had wired your power supply in parallel with the heater? So when temperature had been met it turned off the heater and your readout?
2. Heat always rises, so in a system without fan, the air will be slightly hotter at the top than the bottom
3. To get the best possible readout, the thermoxouple needs to be right next to the thermostats probe/bulb(if mechanical)
4. That oven analogue thermometer is most likely not giving you a proper readout. I havent come across many that will give me a good readout compared to my bi yearly calibrated temperature instruments
Best of luck
Cool video, I am planning on building a low temperature oven/dehumidifier from scratch, was just gonna use a modified old hairdryer with some arduino humidity and temp sensors. Anyone have any suggesgions how to decrease the moisture content inside it and also measure humidity accuratly?
Like many others, I would have mounted the read-out on the bottom panel between the temperature selector and the power switch and avoided all that mess with the external wires and holes in the case. Then run the sensor up into the oven through a small hole in the bottom to keep it all neat and tidy.