Shooting Expired Film From 1984! Will it Work?
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- Опубліковано 1 тра 2020
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Thanks to Nathan Starr, Instagram, who sent me some expired Soviet Film to play with.
The film I was shooting was ASA 160 dated 1984! It was a sunny day so I allowed for the rule of thumb of a 1 stop compensation for every 10 years, which worked out 3-4 stops over exposure and being it was a bright sunny day I put my shots at 1/60th and f4 / f5.6. Seemed to work!
Cameras used - Chinon CE5. Olympus OM20
Film Used - ACMA 130
Developer - XTOL - 12 minutes Stock.
SHOUT OUTS
Thanks to
Nathan Starr for the Film
Casey Celek for the Kosmo
Martin (SFLaB Patreon) for the Fomapan Paper used in the video.
Jess (My Daughter) for assisting x
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Both films are called TASMA, «T» is that shape before 'asma' letters :) This film was manufactured in Kazan, Tatarstan, in Soviet Union. I live in this city, yay. These films are being manufactured without cassetes, just wraped in black paper. My guess, somebody unwrapped paper and ruined film. I suggest you meter all these films as ISO 6 and develop them in Rodianal 1+50 for 4 minutes (yes, 4) at about 18°C. Constant agitation! That way you'll be able to get rid of some portion of base fog. Anyway, thanks for the video :)
Also fun fact: TASMA or ТАСМА in Tatar language means TAPE («лента» in russian)
More interesting fact: TASMA was a name of very profilic photo group in Soviet Union. One of the most known member of that group was Lyalya Kuznetsova (Ляля Кузнецова), you can google her name and see some of her best work
Someone opening the paper. -That might be it.
Basefog maybe? Will that ever be that bad?
@@huneprut If you open it in daylight - it will be that bad
@@huneprut Base fog from aging doesn't look like that. They are massively overdeveloped or, more likely, have been exposed to daylight. I've developed film from the early 1950s, and fogging flattens tonal range by about one paper grade, two tops. Those negs need a laser beam not an enlarger!
I've shot quite a lot of expired film and here's what I've learned.
1. The rule of thumb "1 stop for a decade" is bunk, if the film is still good - it's good; if it's bad - no amount of overexposure will save it. They can benefit from 1 or 2 stop overexposure but so do brand new films.
2. Slower films last longer. I have 2 15m cans of Orwo NP15 which expired '87 - it's ISO25 but you can underexpose it by a stop and it will still give TMAX100 a run for its money. It's my favourite film, I can send you a roll if you want. Any film faster than ISO400 and more than 30 years old is probably dead.
3. Proper development is key. NEVER over-develop, it will only bring up the fog. 12 min in Xtol was waaay to much, try 8. I've had some luck with Rodinal stand but I always get horrible sprocket hole streaks so I abandoned that method. Soviet films (Tasma, Svema) have development times printed on the boxes (it differs from batch to batch), they are for the ST2 (Standard Developer No2) also known as Orwo/Agfa 12, It's no longer made but you can use those times with stock D-76 or Xtol (maybe reduce by 30s). I use Atomal 49 which the same as another Orwo developer from that time, A49.
4. If all else fails and the film is just too fogged you can try a trick I learned from playing with expired paper. Pull it. A lot. Overexpose like 5 stops but cut down on the development. Make sure you use strong, stock developer. Maybe this is where the "1 decade 1 stop" rule comes from but somebody forgot the reduced development part.
5. NEVER over-develop. If in doubt, REDUCE development time.
6. Even with higher base fog, they scan fine even though they tend to be curvy as hell. They also print fine but require a lot more exposure (sometimes in minutes!)
7. NEVER over-de... OK, you get it.
Orwo NP15 (exp1987) A49 stock 9min EI25
i.imgur.com/4dGWYWP.jpg
Tasma 64 (exp1994) A49 stock 6min EI50
i.imgur.com/UK6kKUa.jpg
Thanks for this Andrej. I did try 10 minutes test and still the film was heavy. "Maybe this is where the "1 decade 1 stop" rule comes from but somebody forgot the reduced development part." I like this idea. And yes it was very curly!!
For expired film the best developer is HC110, this developer suppresses the fog level a bit. Another method (haven't tried this myself yet) is adding 1 or 1,5 grams of potassium bromide to your developer for suppressing the fog level.
i have a soviet rangefinder and the numbers on her lightmeter are the same on your expired film boxes so i think what happened is the numbers on the boxes are not in ISO or ASA scales. The soviets had a proper scale called GOST and is not equivalent to ISO os ASA. So for adjust your exposure you need first convert GOST to ASA (on internet exist a table for that) and then add 4 or 3 stops because the age of the film.
- ASA DIN GOST
25
50 18 11
100 21 27
200 24 55
400 27 110
800 30 160
1600 33 360
3200 36 720
6400 39 1800
Source: Wikipedia (Spanish).
The box says 130 (ROCT) This would be the GOST I assume. On the box in the small print it says 160 ASA. I never knew there was a "GOST" scale so thanks for the comment.
@@ShootFilmLikeaBoss Yes, that is GOST scale. Here is the table for convert GOST to ASA and DIN scales. The equivalence isn't perfect even if on the box says 160 in ASA scale it's a little bit different (GOST are 11% less sensitive) they simply rounded to the nearest ASA number. Maybe you need overexpose a little bit more. www.photographersresource.co.uk/photography/exposure/Ref_iso.htm
@@oxentielreadman thanks. So the box says 130... What asa should I meter for?
@@ShootFilmLikeaBoss I think 100 ASA and overexpose 3 or 4 stops because the age of the film. When i shoot with my soviet rangefinder (FED 5) i use Fomapan 100 and i calibrate the lightmeter to 130 GOST and the results are good also comparing with a lightmeter app set on 100 ISO the readings are identical.
I have been enjoying using expired Ilford FP4 and HP5 I was given by a friend, that expired around 2003. I have been shooting it over the last couple of months and learning to develop it. it's been fun.
Great channel keep up the great work.
Great stuff Roger 😀
Hey Andy! Snooker? :) Hope you're all well. Miss you guys.
The fog is caused by radiation and heat. If they were stored in a freezer, they wouldn't have seemed expired, even 40 years later. Shot 70 year expired film with unexpected results, while also shot 15 year expired return horrid results.. all about storage.
Best developer for expired film is HC110..
I think this is my favorite video from you. Cows, sheep, cameras, family and film.
YES Roger -- expired film will have a higher Fog Level -- so a 'Grayness' all over -- we are all exposed to 'Cosmic Radiation; from space and it can even go through the metal of a 'fridge , hit the film emulsion , knock off some electrons from the Silver Halide Atoms thus rendering the emulsion 'developable' even though you have not taken photos on it. Then if the film has been stored in wooden cupboard there are 'Fumes' given out from glues which affect film emulsion chemicals ---
PS -- send ME one to see what I can get out of it -- I have used outdated 120 SVEMA film !
Thanks Peter. Nathan did say he is not sure if there would be light leaks. So I wasn't sure. I've never seen that on expired film before. I will send you the other roll :)
@@ShootFilmLikeaBoss YO !! Roger -- so kind -- the other films arrived all different ASA and 'GOST' ratings - I will do some short lengths at different exposures first in one of my Home-Made Geoffrey Crawley Formulae 'Stock' all at same time 'Guessed' then see how results come out -- contrast and Fog Levels then 'adjust' if necessary ! Home from Hospital, in 'Lockdown and Shielding' so NO COWS for me here in BRENTWOOD just Test Subjects at home !!
Today I shot on photographic plates 9 * 12 cm, Soviet, produced in 1958. Iso fell from 32 to 0.5, but something can be obtained. And Soviet films of 84 years can generally be considered “fresh”, but from somewhere the foot will drop by 3.
This channel is coming along nicely, awesome! I really like that you trusted the expired film and that you went for a straightly optical prints insted of a scanned negative and a print which is exposed with a laser technology like almost all labs do it nowerdays (for over 20 years actually)
Thanks a ton!
I loved the old look of the tractor picture from the expired film.
Yes it looked interesting didn't it. Cheers.
If you have more film and a bottle of Rodinal try this; the base fog is very high, so must try to use a very weak developer and low temp. So you can use Rodinal since it works fine at 1:100 dilution and for the low temp leave it in the fridge 5 to 7 days with 2 or 3 invertions per day. I´m not joking it works!!!, the infamous photographer William Mortensen use to do that and also I´ve done it.
Lol, is that a stand dev? And what temp would the developer end up at after days in a fridge? Can't I just use ice cubes to cool it down to temp?
@@ShootFilmLikeaBoss I call it, Extreme stand!!! the fridge is about 8ºC, the Sodium Hidroxide and the 4-aminophenol dosn´t care about temp, so It will develop even at that low temp, just leave it 5 to 7 days
@@ShootFilmLikeaBoss www.fotografiaanaloga.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Tanque-C.jpg
That look you got after telling Jess to advance the film. Priceless 🤣
I noticed that too :-D
For expired film I use my secret weapon, the XR-1a developer. It´s a very very low alcalinity developer with 3 developing agents, Metol Hydroquinone and the fantastic Phenidone. This developer is special for push process slow films, and I mean PUSH, I can get 3 stop push with 100 asa film from 1989, yes 30 yr old and pushed 3 stops with no grain increment and full detail in shadows and HL. The eonly detail is that you must develop at 30ºC
YO ! I make up my own developers and I have all those chemicals -- can you give me the Formula ?
So is it like Microphen? Which is recommended for fine grain with faster Ilford films?
@@ShootFilmLikeaBoss Yes!, like microphen, buit´s formulated for +400 asa. XR-1a is for 200 asa or less, so you can hand held medium format cameras ;)
I got the info from here unblinkingeye.com/Articles/XR-1/xr-1.html
@@theoldfilmbloke HI, here it is:
XR-1a
Phenidone (1-phenyl-3-pyrazolidone) 1.5 g
Metol (P-methylaminophenolsulfate) 0.25 g
Sodium sulfite 30 g
Hydroquinone 0.5 g
Borax 0.75 g
XR-1b
Phenidone (1-phenyl-3-pyrazolidone) 1.5 g
Metol (P-methylaminophenolsulfate) 0.25 g
Sodium sulfite 30 g
Hydroquinone 0.25 g
Borax 0.5 g
There are 2 versions, I´ve used the "a" version
More info here:
unblinkingeye.com/Articles/XR-1/xr-1.html
@@ShootFilmLikeaBoss Examples: www.flickr.com/photos/gsantos/albums/72157666537467717
in Australia we call a bottle fed calf or lamb a potty calf. You should definitely get Jess one to raise :)
I'd end up looking after it ha ha
Yeah, I've had a roll of Delta (promo roll) that came out exactly like that, but the leader fixed ok too. I imagine its just something that happens sometimes.
I've used a lot of Jessops R14 and R17 lately, and compensated using the one stop for every decade past its best before date and had some really nice results, though for expired or unknown films, I tend to stand develop in rodinal.
Stand is a safe bet.
I quite like the expired antique tractor, scope for some creative fun there.
Tasma is a great film! I shoot it very often. Expired film looks great and its cheap. And it easy to get where i live (Belarus) I think they are still making Tasma film, you should get your hands on it.
You are making me feel very old, I bought my first real camera in 1981, it cost me 6 weeks wages. Coincidentally today I shot some 5X4 Kodak Tmax 100 film dated July 2001 at box speed and stand developed in Rodinal, 1+200 for 2 hours and the negatives look great. The camera was a Calumet with a Nikon Apo 240mm copy lens at f128, it has no shutter so I used a 3 stop ND filter and a Raymond Reddington black hat, great fun when it works.
Any reason why you didn't go 1:100 for an hour?
@@ShootFilmLikeaBoss No particular reason save that I have a very small amount of the original Rodinal and I want to spare it. It was a test to see if this complicated set up worked and it did.
@@mamiyapress ahh. Ha, I I like rodinal
I've shot and developed (with D76) some expired film from the USSR and I got very similar results - extreme fog on the negatives. I had one roll that looked completely black.
Films of my childhood!
What were they like back in the 80s?
@@ShootFilmLikeaBoss They were very good fims, more more silver than any film now!
Yes, you have to overexpose but also underdevelop. I have shot some 1969 Kodak b/w film that I exposed 4 stops over and developed in 1/50 rodinal solution for only 4 minutes. Nice results, though you could still see it was old film, had a beautiful dated look :-)
Nice shots Roger! You really don't have to be afraid of cows, bulls are a different story :) :)
I would not have been in that field with a bull! The farmer got his teeth kicked out by a cow a while back!
I have a roll of Verichrome Pan 120 film that expired in June 1960! I'm deathly afraid to shoot it, lol. I recently shot a roll of Vericolor III 120 that expired in December 1991. The decade rule applied quite well, the colors were still great. My next roll to shoot is a 120 roll of Kodak Tri-X pan that expired in March of 1981 (my birth year and month!!). Also, your videos are great!
I really love the prints from the old film :-)
Great vid m8!..... One question.... IF one of the cows did manage to get up and start making their way to you (in a hurry) would you of put the escape including the audio in the video??
Probably have dropped the camera!
My favorite film is orwonc21, but sometimes I use our Russian 🎞Svema 64 120mm , my camera is Fed2~ analog Leica2 and medium format camera Kiev 60🤗📸
I had a "run in" with a herd of cows while visiting south Wales. Left a definite impression. Now I settle for taking photos over the gate.
Ha ha. Unpredictable!
In Soviet Russia. pictures take you.
But seriously, expired film is fun experiment. I bought a 100' roll that expired in 1979 at an estate sale. It was Kodak Kodalith 8336 orthochromatic film. I lucked out developing it the first try, and ended up getting some great pictures.
expired film gets increased base fog, so yup this looks normal
You can avoid fog in expired film using a bit of benzotriazole in the developer, it helps a lot sometimes and works with color and bw.
Thanks for the tip!!
I have a few 1,000 feet of expired Soviet film and have the best luck with HC110 1+47 at 5-8min. With Xtol I was at 5min. Anything more they were over developed.
LOL, those films have character if nothing else. I have read a bit about them and a Metol Hydroquinone developer is recommended, D76, ID11. The expired films tend to fog quite heavily. Apparently a dedicated high quality scanner like a Nikon Coolscan V ED ( long out of production sadly. Stupid Nikon ) is capable of getting through the fog.
I recently shot a roll of SVEMA 68, which expired in 2005. It is a soviet film which continued production in Ukraine until 2004. Also shot an ORWO CHROM 1984, but there is no way of developing it where I live.
Another thing you can do is try some farmer´s reducer
Jess wants a lamb, cough up Dad! :D
Very nice 🎥, hello from Russia🤗💯✌️✌️✌️
Hello 👋
You get pretty classic results with old soviet film! All this old Tasma and Svema looks the same as yours after developing. Btw, Tasma still produce film and its cheap and awersome!
Astrum and Silberra are Russian I think, I like those films.
Maybe, just maye, these are ideal films to test reticulation on.
Can you explain this Enevan please?
There were lots of grain on the film. It would go crazy dumping in a cold stop.
Develop it in D76 stock
I was born in 1984
My son to now I have 3 rolls of Fotomat 100 from 1989 I wonder what is will look like at the end of the day.
I experienced the same with an ORWO Color 100 from GDR, expired in 1996. Completely black, seemed to have been exposed. The guy who gave it to me said this happened because the film got oxygen. I do not understand so much about chemistry. Why does oxygen produce this effect??? I do not know.....
Roger: That's what happened to me, The images were real dark..
We were planning on going to an Alpaca farm right before this crap hit the fan. Soon as the lockdown is removed I'm going to take my Yashica and take some pictures of them. I lol'd when you scared your daughter, that's something I'd pull.
Gotta be done John. Nice vid on the window light BTW
@@ShootFilmLikeaBoss Thanks. Still life is tough for me. I have no clue what I'm doing.
I understand your fear of cows. My fear factor is a little different. I shoot a lot of pictures around lakes. When I stand in the water I'm in constant horror of being gummed to death by panfish.
Ha Ha!! I must admit I don't stand in lakes, only the sea! One time my daughter was sitting on a kayak in the sea and a sea lion popped up to say hello.... she froze!!
Going for an Atom Heart Mother remake, eh?
I've also shot expired Svema film, 120, though my results were very disappointing compared to yours here.
One day i shoot bw film expired in 1970
But i shoot it in simple Chinese point and shoot camera(200 iso max)
In the first decade of this century, I played with expired Soviet/Ukrainian/Russian film. I've shot Svema FN64 (a B&W emulsion which was barely expired when I shot it), Tasma MZ-3L (a very slow B&W film that was in sorry shape), Svema CO-32D (a color slide film), and Svema CND-64 (a color print film). The Svema FN64 worked best, not surprisingly, and in fact I liked it a lot. I've still got some in my freezer. It's grainy for a film of this speed, but I liked the look of it. It had a look similar to Efke KB50 or KB100. The Svema FN64 didn't respond well to XTOL, though; developed in XTOL, the grain became more prominent, and in an objectionable way; it looked more like a non-T-grain ISO 400 film, but with even uglier grain. I had good luck with both Rodinal and DS-12, though; both produced smooth tonality and pleasing grain. My Tasma MZ-3L produced badly fogged negatives no matter what I did. Worse, there were these odd splotchy bits all over it. My guess is it was poorly stored prior to my getting it. I was able to pull images off the film, but it would be usable, at best, for a random extreme Lomography-type look. I tracked down the Soviet photochemical formulas for processing the color films, but I was unable to find the right color developing agents, so I had to make substitutions, which may have affected my results. The Svema CO-32D produced faded and discolored transparencies, but the images were clear and grain was not too bad. This worked well for one shot, which I printed on RA-4 paper that I processed with reversal to get a moody color image. I could also restore colors from the transparencies by scanning them and using a "restore fading" option in the scanner software, which produced very subdued colors, which could suit some subjects. I didn't have much luck with the Svema CND-64 color negative film; its negatives were very dark and they did not scan or print well. At best, I got very grainy scans with bad fogging along the edges of the film. As I recall, I wasn't able to get anything better than vague blobs out of darkroom prints. So in sum, the Svema FN64 was a big win for me, and the Svema CO-32D produced some interesting results; but the Tasma MZ-3L and Svema CND-64 were both pretty useless. Of course, somebody else might have different results with different samples or processing techniques and chemicals.
Thanks for the detailed informative read Roderick. Appreciated.
It's very common for film to fog over time, especially if not stored frozen. This is the real reason for needing to expose more as the film ages -- because the exposure you give in camera needs to overcome the fog that's built up (from background radiation, mainly). That's also why you lose contrast and may need to "push" development to compensate.
What you got was about normal for middle of the road films stored at room temperature for thirty-plus years. I usually use HC-110 for old film (Ilfotec HC would do the same) because of its strong anti-fog property. I've processed film that was exposed thirty years previous in HC-110 and got very printable negatives.
I wasn't even born in 1982. For real! Not far off, though.
It just occurred to me that most of my cameras are older than me🤔
The development method is wrong.
For example: Don't use Process C41 with the film, Old Negative. You should use the process (AGFA-CNs) as it works at a temperature of 20 ° C, thus keeping the remaining layers of emulsion in good condition without being exposed to heat with the process (C41) operating at a temperature of 38 ° C.
I am sure that the results will be much better and the proportion of color interference in the image will decrease and the color transfer will decrease significantly.
Likewise with black and white films, you need a dual developer dedicated to old films, which was a formula invented by the photographic scientist Mr. Crowley, that restores a complete pause from the dead emulsion.
It's black and white film. In black and white chems.
10:08 is where we see the results :)
I wouldn't worry about butchering the Russian accent. Ray Winstone was paid a fortune to do just that in the recent Black Widow movie from Marvel
Roger, the film has excessive fog which is typical with old film thats been stored poorly. There are a few things that may be of help.
1-use a small amount (5ml/L) of benzotriazole with your developer allowing about 20 min for the benzo to take effect before starting the process.
2 - use very low dev temps 50-55F with extended times to compensate.
I've had luck with both of these before I quit shooting expired film, but as you can see photosensitive materials die an ugly death.
Good luck
Thank you!
Roger you approached them cows like you where going to make burgers out of them......
Well mcdonalds is shut
Here to offer an alternative title: "two photographers afraid of sleeping cows"
No problems if it was refrigerated properly.
LOL! Why didn't you send the annoying Roger II into the cow gate? :-) Where is he currently?
Ha Ha. He's on holiday
@@ShootFilmLikeaBoss There is a "Shutdown"! No travelling! You should care more about your annoying brother. ;-)
Kissy noises ... 'hello cow...' Omgsh Lol 😂
Just so she knows i come in peace
Expired film is like a box of chocolates... you never know what you are going to get...
Don't be afraid of cows. randy bulls maybe, but cows in pasture , no worries. as a boy we went out in the pasture to shoot flies off the cow pies with our BB guns. Great days they were.
Ha ha
We are living 1984.
Post images of the film at instagram so we can tell you WTF happend hehehe
When using “aged” film you’ll have better luck with black and white. Even then I’d lean to gross overexposure. Color film, it’s a crapshoot!
Hi Roger
I thought I would say a bit about expired film have a lot of experince with expired film both in still and movie film. I was taught cinematography by the late Bryan Langley and first rate British camera man. I have found that the one stop for ten years is only necessary with colour reversal film (Ektachrome). Half a stop with colour negative film.
B/w only requires a small over exposure, depending how the film has been stored.
I hope this helps
Robert
I'm not into expired film.
It appears that in addition of the film being fogged, it looks overexposed and overdeveloped.
I sent a roll to Peter Elgar and he couldn't work it either.
Shoot film like a boss I bought recently 120 Russian expired film brand Svema! I am going to test it and upload a video on my channel! I believe that you overexpose and overdevelop too much... When we don't know what is the developing time there a test that we can do to find out! I will make a video about it as well!
It's hilarious how you're being really cautious around those poor cows, when just yesterday morning I let a duo of Texas Longhorns eat alfalfa out of my lap.
Trust me, they're far more afraid of you than you are of them. If a cow is getting angry, they start pawing at the ground. It's reaaaaaaly obvious.
Recently this year I got closer each day and I felt as though they started to recognise me. Still was cautious though
@@ShootFilmLikeaBoss Aww, that's good. Just remember the bit about pawing at the ground, and you'll be golden. Oh and another thing... cows enjoy sweet things like horses do. So if you brought a little sweet mix or an apple out there with you, I bet you'd make a new friend.
cows are not dangerous beasts, if they were famers wouldnt keep them. only ever time to be wary of cows is if they have very young calves or if theres a bull in the field.
Yes I've learned. Still don't feel comfy around them
I've noticed you have been churning out loads of videos Roger ;) you just be really really bored!
Are we all not bored James? lol
@@ShootFilmLikeaBoss yes I am hahaha. Business for my film lab has been a bit slow :( so just printing a backlog of personal film to pass the time and for my chems to not go off
Sorry, but this is not like you: why didn’t you take a few shots and then test it in the different developing solutions? You basically have butchered the film... you always bring the tripod with you. Why didn’t you use it this time for long exposures? Please, do it again and do it properly this time 👍
I think this was just for fun, not like trying to get best results
Thanks Arthur. As commented, it's just for a bit of fun during lockdown. I wouldn't spend too much time on expired film. If it works it works. It has in the past for me. Just not here.
@@endingmirage You get the idea!
Shoot Film Like a Boss - got you. Love your channel and your posts. Please, keep up your talented work!
Recently bought some svema 125 from Ukraine, exp 1991. Absolute rubbish. I think the film was xrayed to hell and warmed up.
Como fotógrafo... es posible, pero como torero no tienes futuro.
😂🤣😂🤣
Cows are female why did you call them him? If you went into a field with a male" bull" you would be in big trouble.
You live and learn ha ha.