Do non audiophiles recognize great sound when they hear it?
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- Опубліковано 4 бер 2018
- When I was an audio salesman I played lots and lots of demos for civilians, and here’s what I learned: Most people don’t know good sound when they hear it. But when they do they get really really excited
A more relevant question would be; 'Do "audiophiles " recognize great sound when they hear it?'
No they do not. Most of them are old guys with impaired hearing to begin with. It's a fact. That why we have pro studio gear for music industry and audiophiles with voodoo believes and quantum filters and cable heaters.
I'm not a audiophile but I do make music and do recording with real instruments... but when I say what is a great sound?... well go live... even how much great your million dollar mic and room cost, there is nothing will replace a good band/artist that play live, it's worth paying for a plane and ticket than paying for the gadget you use... not to mention 80% of those famous music where mixed using Yamaha NS-10M lol...
@@yasunakaikumi I second this but if your speaker suck ass and sound like dying cat at certain volume, live or not your music will taste like crap
@@yasunakaikumi that sounds like it makes sense but I have experienced the opposite. My home system sounds far better than live events. Why? Because live events have average microphones, basic amps and bad speakers.
Absolutely brother. But I think once you develop the language and can describe what you hear you are an audiophile with a valid opinion. For the most part though, once we’ve heard a lot of gear we would all tend to agree on what’s “good”. Probably won’t agree on what’s BEST though. Beyond that? Is the definition of great sound more of a bell-curve that evolves with time? Have I simply gone completely off the DEEP end and over intellectualized what should be a simple enjoyment of music? Yep.
I'd love to see a study of whether audiophiles can recognize "great sound" in a double-blind test. My guess is that most can't. The mere fact that $1000 interconnect cables even exist is a pretty good indication that at least a good portion of the audiophile market is based purely on placebo effect.
Elitism-motivated placebo
In terms of cables, I’m right there with you. The room makes a huge difference, but the “speed” of the drivers, definitely is important think if playing a click. Some will go ‘0-60-0’ MuCh faster than others. It is called impulse response. A waterfall graph of a speaker also called spectral decay graph will tell you IMO the most about the resolution which I think ina good room, anyone will be absolutely blown away. Many but not all of the equipment that allows for this holographic sound, are insanely expensive. Like up to a 100,000$- over one million for some of this stuff, but IMO the actual best stuff is made by companies who don’t even have a marketing department or accountants because they aren’t in it for the money, they are obsessed with using technology and techniques and ideas that puts much of the million dollar stuff to shame. Spectral Audio in Silicon Valley is an example. they make super next generation ahead of most level amplification and their website looks like a geocities site from 1998 . DIY actually allows us to use higher or equal quality drivers for a tenth the price. Of peer level retail speakers, but this requires a LOT of skillful use of the drivers especially the low frequency area which is just different in many ways. DIY or pay someone to build you a pair using great drivers.
@@afj617 sounds like you’re describing JTR. Ha
That, and the love they have for smugness like these titles.
@@afj617Driver stopping is group delay but it certainly isn't hearable on any decent drivers and is huge in bass with bass reflex systems so you shouldn't hate all bass reflex designs
Most audiophiles don't listen to music, they listen the audio system.
If they listen at all.
Wouldn't it be more special if I heard something for the first time that made me say..." Wow..." Did I think how the treble and bass and hi's and Lowe's were? No I didn't. Not a musician, but music has been a backdrop to my life. If you put a little effort into setting it up, it doesn't have to be great, just good.
True, whatever system you have it should make you smile.
Also just buy whatever the audiophile vinyl companies put out - don't really develop their own individual taste in music.
Exactly.
Steve has such a lovely speaking style and is so knowledgeable - could listen to him for hours!
That adds NOTHING to this video presentation. Not to mention kinda creepy.
Steve is a salesman. His voice is his main life tool. He uses it well.
You have to play their favorite songs, don't care if it's despacito or anything, that's how you introduce high end audio to new comer.
Exactly!
Back in 1998, a hi-fi shop in Taiwan played a CD of Metallica's Master of Puppets on a Spectral set-up. Completely blown away by how it realistically reproduced the sound of a drum kit in a heavy metal music setting. Too bad the set up is just too expensive for me back then.
very true. I ALWAYS ask for favorite song when people come here at home. they get the point very fast when hearing things they didn't hear before even after hearing thousend of times
Nope! I beg to differ. Almost all the people who came for a listening session to my hi-fi got to listen to a song that they've never heard before. And they loved it. It was Jazz. And they were not jazz lovers, but today, they are. Now that's the power of clean sound.👌
Audiophiles don’t like music, they like high end audio products.
Took my gf to a hifi store while on vacation (there are none where we live) played her favorite artist sade, watched her reaction as she looked around the room from her seat and couldn't figure out what speakers played . After the song I asked her what she thought and she attempted to describe the Soundstage and Image (no primer was given on what to expect) very happy moment for me, until she asked how much it cost lol.
nyrep1 that’s usually the issue w wife/girlfriend! But you got passed part 1 quality sound
My wife had the same experience when she tried high end headphones the first time.
You my friend are halfway there. Now start making more money, and you're good.
REAL TRUTH I don't get exactly what you're trying to say. But I assume you're from my neck of the woods since all those companies are near me. I live on the southeast RI/MA border. All those companies made good stuff at one time. I love the NE HiFi companies. I've got Advent/HH Scott/KLH right now. I love American HiFi in general actually, but really love the Northeast sound especially. Best speakers I've ever heard that didn't cost a ton of money are the ADS 910's. Those speakers are amazing. You're very lucky to have worked for those companies.
REAL TRUTH Well they "were" near me anyway. 😣
I'm 20 now and the reason I started to become an audiophile is because since I was very young my Dad plays his high-end system at home all the time. Later when I started to appreciate those music he played and started to listen to them on other average systems, I finally realized how good my Dad's system is. I also realized how good those vintage high end audio products are that the modern ones could hardly reach that level.
There comes a point, and it comes fast, where no matter how much money you spend on a system, the room becomes the most important factor in quality sound.
Facts
true.
one of the biggest upgrades you can do is to move your speakers from the wall.
Huge factor. Most systems and components are unconsciously designed for the type of building construction commonly used today, ie frames and cladding. So if you live in a modern condo your set-up will sound great more or less out of the box. But if you move to say a 300 year old stone farmhouse with low ceilings it can wreak havoc. I have to use a 24 channel equaliser for that reason and without fail, purists who walk into the room will scoff quietly or condescend like Steve here. But if you're listening to digital media the music has already lost its "life" so I think its legitimate to attempt to improve or tailor the sound the best you can.
it's not the only factor though, l mean a pair of bowers and wilkins CM10's will sound better in your front yard than a pair of dayton T-652's would sound in a studio. you have to get a good happy medium between the 2.
very true. Of course it is much easier to change a piece of stereo than a flat. And many people go on wasting money without even thinking about room acoustic treatments. In a good theater a simple boombox is able to fill all the space with music ...
"Bose: Better Sound Through Marketing" They don't need to sound better, they just need you to think they do. Same with Beats.
Im glad people are still saying that..... cause its true.
They fight for the general consumer market, not the high end segment. Though, I would say Bose quality is better than most of their direct competition. However, the price difference is rarely worth it.
Exactly!
True, true, true.........
"Boze. Better ads. Better brand."
So many people don't care about audio. I set up my mothers TV to go through her 2 x 20w stereo. It's not high end, not "loud", but 100 times better than the tinny TV speakers as you could hear bass, hear the voices on TV without it being so loud. All my mother and sister, her bf (who lived with them) needed to do was hit one button turn on the stereo and have decent sound when watching TV or bluray's. Whenever I went there they were watching TV and didn't turn it on. 6 months later I see the stereo is unplugged and covered in dust.
EDIT 2 years later. A happy story to balance it out. My grandmother is 86 and I noticed she always has her TV turned up to the max. I got her a newer TV with an HDMI ARC port. I learned from the experience with my mother. I bought a Yamaha soundbar (my grandmother likes Yamaha keyboards, she used to play at church) and I tested that even with total black out, unplugging TV and soundbar from the wall, that it all came back automatically when powered on with ARC. No extra buttons or remote, fool proof! My grandmother immediately noticed and loved it. She actually comments on the improved sound even 6 months later, says how much better it is. She even watches "Songs of Praise" on TV on Sunday and goes and sits at her old piano and plays along, which she said she has only been able do with the new soundbar.
Yeah i know people which hearing a lot of rock and metal. But they dont care if they play those music over an normal smart tv. Cant understand why such people who like music that much not invest into a good soundsystem...
same for me. My TV is plugged to my amp, all my wife has to do is hit the power button on the remote, which is always on the table next to the TV remote. She won't do it. She'd rather turn up the volume from the crappy TV speakers, even though tat's actually longer than pressing the damn button.
So true! I have a number of intelligent, well educated friends who’s stereo or TV audio is set up to sound abysmally poor. I’ll work my tail off to tweak what they have so that they might enjoy their audio more - and easily. Not only are they not appreciative, they’re sometimes actually a bit hostile! This despite my best efforts to help in a gentle, unassuming manner. Now in my sixties, I’m finally coming to the conclusion that I should not try to help friends with their audio. Which is so sad. I’m not much of a cook, but when a friend who is culinary comes over and says hey, let me show you another way to make that omelet that will taste better, I’m sincerely grateful. Obviously, I don’t understand people real well.
😞
And i cant understand why people such as yourself expects everyone to be a bunch of millionare. Are you that senile to think that a job like janitor or nurse will grant you 50.000$ per weeks?
@@Saboda53 Thats because you are an dogmatic asshole who thinks everyone that disagree with you have problems and tries to shove down on their throat on what you believes to be best sound.
Your mentality is comparable to that of an militant vegan.
They don’t and that’s ok. From my experience, non-audiophiles love Bose sound. I’m not advocating Bose, it’s the truth. In my family room I have a set of Bose 701 plugged into a cheap $300 Yamaha theatre receiver. Also a Dayton Audio sub. This is a $1,500 system and it wows my neighbors, friends, and family. In my listening room, I have a $10k system: Magnepan 1.6, Parasound amp/pre, dual Sunfire Subs, Chorus DAC, Project Audio phono... etc. As Steve says in the video, they don’t get it. I personally don’t force or judge non-audiophiles because they don’t have the disease of wanting perfect audio... it’s a disease that I haven’t found a cure.
sometimes a system that wows is a system that is very hard to listen to for more than an hour or so......
He, it´s really something addictive, even in same price ranges the sound changes so much with different speakers, amps, etc. The combinations and flavors are endless. By the way, i think that your 1500 dollars setup is pretty good for starters, personally i think that enjoyable sound starts at around 1000 dollars.
But they do , and Bose is to many is the ducks guts !
The only cure for your disease...is More Cowbell!!
pat I agree 100%
3:29 “Normal people don’t really get high end audio...” 😂 I love it!
Famous words they use: The music sounds clear but less bass! Turn up the BASS!
That's where I jump in with a bloody butchers knife.
Quite understandable as a lot of systems are relatively flat down to 50/60Hz, then drop off a cliff, that bottom octave is hard to get right, and it matters for some kinds of music. Floyd Toole's studies show that everyone can rank speakers the same - you don't need training to recognize colouration. Play DSotM on a system without that bottom octave and the heartbeats are lost, for instance. So yes, turn up the bass is a natural response, although it won't really fix anything. Certainly not on laptop speakers!
Yeah, everybody wants (extreme) Bass? What's with this Bass thing? Even in little tiny bluetooth speakers most common question is , "How's the Bass"? Is it something tribal, or innate?
I think it may be related to banging on old hollow trees, to send a message to the next village. There's something really disgusting about the notion that we need to forget about the music and just pay attention to the nerve racking bass (yeah, cause you can FEEL it), I can FEEL a 2 million volt stun gun too, but it doesn't mean that I like it. It tells me you are not concerned with real music, just making a lot of annoying noise. How many compositions with nerve rattling bass can you whistle too? Do people still dance or do they just jell?
@@M0D60 To me bass is the foundation start there then work your way up the chain to top end perfection.. eazy right noooot haha !!
The kind of people you're describing probably don't generally sit down and really listen to music. It's not THAT important to them. They play music just as something to defeat the quietness, just something to fill the space with. People that do really focus on the music and take time to actually sit down and listen to it, they also tend to be more appreciative of good sound quality. For these type of people, the sound quality can even become an obsession. That's the type of people that could end up into the 'snake oil' side of high-end audio.
"The kind of people you're describing probably don't generally sit down and really listen to music."
Neither do audiophiles, though. You always see audiophiles discussing the "perfection" of the sound, but never its *musicality*.
And if you think those two things are one and the same, you're proving my point.
I play most of my music through either a Bose Soundlink Mini on laptop or plug in a Yamaha EMX 630 with 4 cabs 12 inch and horns boot up the Yamaha O2R mixing desk this does Defeat The Quite and Rattle the Roof or Scare neighbours, lush with classical music and moves air, or the Audiotechnica Headphones..........
No, I sit and "really listen" every day..... I just cant afford high end!!!!!
Just like new generation gamers that are obssesed with building the best computer in the world.
What do audiophiles want? They want the ability to have a sound that sounds realistic, that doesn't have some annoying boosts in frequency range that kill the realism and actual power of the sound... They want to make themselves feel like they are in the studio with the artist and make themselves get that "Wow factor"... You don't exactly need totally flat sound, but it must be in 3dB-5dB range to catch all the details... Expensive headphones cost more, and the difference between lets say cheap Panasonics or JVCs is barely there, because these give almost flat sound for nothing, so difference is very small... HD800 will only sound a bit more natural and detailed then lets say Superlux HD681 or Beats, but for us audiophiles those details and naturality are all we care about, and casual listeners that listen to Sennheiser Momentum 2 would say they have the best sound ever... Why? Because Momentum 2 is tuned to their preferences... HD800 isn't and they would ask things like: 1000$? And not even wireless? Where is the bass? Why is the sound so damn boring? How on Earth can this be more expensive than Sennheiser Momentum 2.0 Wireless? etc. etc.
Let’s face it, there is nothing like having a badass stereo, kicking back with some friends, my lady, hitting a doobie, and rocking the night away.
One of your best vids Steve. It is hard to get people to challenge “what they know” and actually listen.
"Great sound" is the sound you like. I love the sound of vintage 70s audio,especially Sansui stereo systems. I have a Sansui 881,SE9 compu equalizer,3060 turntable and four SP2000 speakers. That is my current set up and i have a spare bedroom full of top end 70s stereos. This has been my hobby for the last twenty years. Bought most of these at the local flea market at a steal.
The reaction that I usually get is wow that is really CLEAR.
Or when they say its too clear they mean too much treble.
It's like being impressed by the brightest TV that's most blinding...
squall6789 Not to those who know their stuff. When you sit on the sofa in a soundproofed room and it is just you and a beautiful crystal clear sound. Your analogy fails as there is no skill in having a brighter TV but the guys who put in multi cellular line arrays for touring musicians really have to understand sound which is why they are mostly R&D. They key department in any pro audio company.
Hefty Alan... Steve says their impression is based on VOLUME. Thinking a louder system is better is like thinking a brighter tv is better, when really clarity and tone (or colour reproduction on tvs) is what matters.
squall6789 Agreed re: clarity and tone
Stupid comment.
J, only as stupid as people who think louder speakers = better speakers
No, they only recognize bass.
paul taylor no one can recognize bass sound no one can tell that 51 watts is extremely powerful so this means I am the only one that can recognize bass
I think that is the younger generation, Car audio people. But true bass sells like Beats and other exaggerated low end. I had Carver Amazings when there were not too many speaker companies, and I remember almost everyone saying WOW HEAR THAT SOUND??? It was not loud but just sounded good, until my 3 year old playing hide and seek and BOOM over one came. But I got new ribbons. Anyway people recognized "good sound"
You're right. I let 3 young people listen to my well balanced Monoprice m1060 that's well equalized and they all asked for something with bass. One said it focuses on all the music but not focused on bass, it's ok. The second too them off and said I like bass (he's the car audio guy). The third said play something with bass and said not bad when I played marching band drumlines. Lol regular people don't appreciate good sound just like I don't much care what a car sounds like or how fast it goes. It's just a car to me.
I have been a stereo nut since I was 10 years old and I still like bass. I don't like lousy distorted bass, but bass is important to me. I don't know why bass gets such a bad rap, and I also don't understand how a system can be dubbed "lifelike" or "accurate" if it doesn't produce the bass that would exist in a live performance, or reproduce the full bass response of a studio recording. Now "loud" - that is my nemesis. I can't stand how excessively loud a lot of audiophiles and stereo salesmen want to play the equipment. Dang guys, save my ears! I like to listen at safe and comfortable levels and for that reason I feel like a lot of the things that other stereophiles like, I am unimpressed with. I'll say, "meh, okay" about a particular pair of speakers and the response is almost always, "well you gotta turn it up!"
Bass is damn important, i've seen some audiophile headphones with awful weak bass, as if a strong bass could never be realistic.
It's like asking me about "sports." I just don't care.
it is rare to find a good Hi-Fi sales person. Most just want to ring you up for something.
Great perspective Steve, you did a great job explaining this, keep up the great work!
Steve you’re spot on! This is why I am subscribed to your channel. Thank you sir for all you do.
I loved when I saw people's jaw drop when they heard my system. But it seems today's kids don't know what the real thing sounds like.
Most peoples passing interest in music involves listening through ear buds. this is no listening and the proximity and amplitude both create damage to ears. once your ears are damaged you will never listen with acuity so discernment is impossible..
direct sound into the ear canal lacking the sonic massage to the gut is an unfamiliar non musical experience for me.
7:12 "So its fascinating, Who buys high end audio, and what is their motivation?" +1 agree and looking forward to many vids to come to cover this in detail in mutiple vids. Thanks and enjoyed very much as always!
I want to show this video to so many people!!! It perfectly encapsulates everything I’ve been trying to explain to tell them for years but with no results. Cheers Steve.
I had a vintage Allied 490 receiver in the ‘70s. I had an audio oscilloscope that was calibrated for 8 ohms. The receiver would clip at exactly 100 watts. A sine wave would square up right at the 100 watt line and never exceed that point.
Anyway, my friend had a Sound Design all in one system. We put the two systems side by side and compared them. I turned mine up to the point where the signal would start to distort by clipping. My friend then turned his on and cranked it up until it was painful to listen to due to severe distortion, and said his was louder.
I corrected him and told him his was more distorted, but not louder. He didn’t believe me, so I told him to turn his up again and leave it on. I turned mine on to about 50% which drowned out his distorted amp and it wasn’t painful to listen to.
Again as you pointed out loud isn’t better, but better could be louder. He was confusing loudness with distortion.
5:04 - This test would reveal more if you play them a track they're already familiar with!
The funny thing about sound quality is that even when it's playing Extremely Loud you don't realize it.
So true Steve! Really like your videos and your positive attitude, don't change anything! 😎
I just came across your channel and I love it. Very interesting and right up my alley. I have always been into music and stereo systems since I was a small boy.
My way to convert normal people to high end audio is to give them something nice to listen to on their own for at least a week.
I converted almost all my friends like that.
I started with headphones and portable Dac/amp. Landing them a fiio q1 m2 with a Sennheiser hd 600 for a week. When the time comes to give me back my equipment they get it and if they have the means they all buy the same thing.
After that they're hooked up. I land them an ifi idsd nano black to go further and later a mojo with a little bear b4 (a baby tube amp)😁.
Generally if they have the money it's an instant update. From there we start talking speaker systems to match their new found experience.
Took my friend to a hi-end hifi store. He was blown by the sound and the prices. Never got into it.
However, a 2nd friend of mine listened to my B&w, Rega RP8 + Rega Aria set-up and was amazed. He asked what he can get for 1k €.
I've hooked him up with some Dali Zensor 3 + stands...a Rega RP1 and a Marantz integrated..all for around 1200 € ! he's been buying records like crazy ever since!
..that's great that you could induce good sound...music to someone..
That is so awesome. Great choices too BTW. Especially on the Marantz. That house sound is something that really seems to please most everybody, except for picky audiophile types IME, and the speakers too. I hear great things. They actually have a deal on them at Massdrop right now.
Maybe he was born an audiophile and just never knew it.
Yes...sometimes such "realizations" of our passions comes quite late; but better late than never!
cartossin I think some people are just better at noticing quality then others. I've tried things that were the high end of things I didn't normally like, but liked them. Like wine. Never liked it. Tried Opus One at a birthday dinner, and was impressed. I always pick out the most expensive things when I'm looking at stuff, and don't know the prices, without meaning to, like clothes. Or even wanting to, as I'm cheap. I'll never buy Opus One, but I like it. And the first time I heard good sound reproduction I knew it right away. Wasn't expecting it at all. And didn't even really know anything about it. Just went into a high end store while out shopping for curiosity. And I didn't do anything about it for over 20 years. But now that it's affordable to me. I'm out hunting for every used high end, and high end DIY bargain I can find. But I have friends that can't tell the difference in anything I point out at all. Be it sound, wine, cigars, or food. They simply can not tell the difference between them at all. The frozen hamburger cooked in a frying pan is fine, and taste the same to them as a fresh one on the grill. I frikkin hate frozen hamburgers in a frying pan. Gross! But I'll eat two of the fresh ones on the grill thank you very much. Lol
Lots of wisdom in this video. Thanks.
When I was in high school, back in the 70s. My friends were more concerned about how loud your system is. I was more concerned about the quality of the sound. Now my brother did not care at all about sound quality. He said his little portable radio is good enough. I'm not talking about a boombox but a small hand held radio. I really enjoy your videos. Have a great day.
you've only got to see how most ppl treat CD's and vinyl to understand how important music is to most 'music lovers'.
Usually non music fans/audiophiles don't really appreciate the quality until they go back to their normal way of hearing music..I say hearing, because most people hear, but dont actually listen.
we recognize snobs fairly easily, well back to my 1963 dynaco stereo 70 and my vandersteens
I love these videos and brings back so many memories of when I was a young man working at Good guys learning about video and audio my Golden age.
The main difference between audiophiles and non audiophiles is that the latest doesn’t pretend to be an audiophile.
Most of audiophiles are only people with pockets deep enough to buy high end products.
I think what audiophile community should do is to advocate for the betterment of recording quality in music industry. All those thousands of dollar worth of gears isn't made for all that compressed music.
Artist and musicians must have some kind of incentives in creating quality recording, not just loud but compressed.
Most consumers are listening to music on mobile devices these days so volume is unlikely to be lowered and high res formats during production. I can't tell a difference from aac vs lossless . When I was younger I had a pioneer stereo with cerwin vega speakers and a sony portable cd and minidisc player. Now I use playstation vita slim with sony earbuds and jbl xtreme and charge 3 speakers, I only notice a lack of floor shaking bass with the speakers due to being so much smaller. I use the speakers as my home theater hooked up to pc/tv and for music at the skatepark very convenient. But there are high res certified home and mobile devices and lossless formats like flac for audiophiles..
most of the recording artistes who cared are dead or retired
Some people go through life without listening. Hearing happens automatically, and is not refined.
It's great that you had the patience to let non-audiophiles hear high end audio. A lot of dealers wouldn't give them the time of day.
Love your videos! I Thought I was an "Next Level Audiophile" until I saw a few of your videos! CHEERS!
People can hear the difference but most don't care. Music is nothing but an accessory for the majority of humans.
perhaps most are only hearing a 'difference' but not an 'improvement' to their minds?
That and life's everyday expenses get in the way.
I could get into audiophile stuff but I don't wanna spend the money. It doesn't satisfy my cost/reward assessment.
Because people can hear a difference is exactly why CD took over from vinyl, if you actually think about it.
Problem is that audiophile stuff is too costly... Why would normal people pay 10000$ on something they don't know a thing about and don't really care about it although they want it? Cheapest HP that can be called audiophile are $30 Superlux HD681's, and the cheapest speakers are $160x2 JBL studio monitors... And they thing wireless technology is a new thing that has even better sound quality than normal headphones... Also, you think people would not get a stroke if you said them you paid a 1000$ on a pair of headphones (Senn HD800, Audeze LCD2)?... They would probably send you to a mental hospital and even the doctor would look at you and say: WTF!?... You basically pay 1000$ on something that has 2 drivers and a cover... Senn HD800 probably costs $80 to make...
Thank you very much that was amazing topic I will say also quality is better than quantity
A new conglomerate- (Beats,Bose,Sonos) "Here at B.B.S audio, we have zero aspirations for good sound" 🤣. Love it Steve!
IMO the best video you have done so far. All true. Nice work.
My wife wants me to throw my B&W DM2000s to the curb because she says they were built and designed in the mid 80s and the technology has surpassed them and as an example she uses BOSE, because they get such a loud sound out of a small speaker, talk about not getting it. This coming from a person whose hearing is so bad she can't locate the phone when it rings. I hooked up my B&Ws and Hafler amp and preamp last weekend and they STILL give me goosebumps! Women haha
Odd I used to love the b&w 801's or was it the 802's. Probably didn't care much for the rest of the line and always hated Bose speakers.
Sandy Jenkins OMG the 801s were fantastic. I used to visit them weekly at Audio Breakthroughs in Manhasset, NY. Fantastic. I still love my DM2000s they are so seductive and detailed. Thx
Lee Weber I hear you. There are people who just love to hear themselves talk. There is a huge difference between an audiophile who feels and senses depth, soundstage, imaging and air and someone who is happy with a bluetooth speaker and they cant appreciate it at all. Its sort of like people who cant appreciate a high performance car because they only go from point a to point b, soulless people I tell you :-)
Lee Weber--Obviously, you've never been beaten, and had your hands tie strapped behind your back while being locked in a closet for 3 or 4 days.
Sir: I think you need to upgrade your wife! 😁
I think they will like you said if you point out the differences I was lucky enough when I was young when I went to a Hi-Fi shop somebody did the same for me turn me on too Supertramp over a good system and that got me hooked 40 plus years later 🎧
Lol, this sounds really inspirational when you run the lofi hiphop in the background - your voice is perfect for samples!
Ok, now I gotta actually watch the video xD
hey Steve are the rp160s a good choice for a med to small room I already have the reference subwoofer rd10 and older klispch kg 2.5 which are great but 22 years old looking for an upgrade I found a new pair piano black for 400 U.S. are the worth it ?
I find that MOST of them don't. When I meet a non audiophile that does, it's as if god has shined down upon me.
I can't tell you how many people have said to me while I was trying to convince them that they need better audio that they don't because they don't want to play it loud. They completely missed the point of good sound quality.
We even developped specific arguments for this case where i work.
I have a $100 put together system and have changed over most of my friends, almost made some cry. I can’t wait to upgrade to a $500 system you recommended, and hear that difference.
The opening statement ! 😆 😆 Good one Steve !
I have always liked music and the better quality systems. But I've always had to stick to a budget. That is one of the reasons I've stayed away from "high end" audio stores / shops. One I didn't have that kind of money and two even if I had that kind of money I couldn't spend the amount I've seen some spend.
I don’t consider myself an audiophile but I never equated quality with loudness. The words I used for what I wanted was clarity and real.
Very interesting video. Friends who hear my hifi like it but don't necessarily desire something similar for themselves and I've always thought that to be a bit odd. I suppose its like taking someone for a hot lap in your sports car and they clearly like it, but don't desire a sports car for themselves. Same with a 4WD or a pool in the backyard. Desire is so personal.
A great sound stage and a good degree of effortlessness will definitely get you some "wtf?" looks.
I’m a musician. I’ve always kept a good (IMO) home stereo to enjoy the same type of music that I play. Years ago, I bought Magnaplanar speakers because the sound was so pure. In time, I switched over to PA (Public Address) speakers... You, know, the same kind of speakers that rock bands use when they play live.. covered with carpet and steel mesh grills. My logic was that if musicians play thru PA systems and speakers live, then the best way to listen to them is thru the same type of equipment. I’ve been satisfied for years with my setup.
Audio equipment has reached a point in this day and age where you can make a good or pleasant sound without spending too much money. As been pointed out loudness is what many folk think of as being quality sound. In some ways that's not too far off the mark, this is why recording studios master recordings to be very loud. Loudness is one of the simplest and easiest ways to trick the ear into making it think it's listening to something nice, particularity on small speakers or at lower volumes. As an audiophile will know there is more to music than simply being loud, hearing soft details or the build up of a song through its dynamic range is what a good recording and great sound system can only deliver. The enjoying extra dimensions to sound is what make someone an audiophile, just in the same way a wine connoisseur can appreciate the different dimensions in wine.
Well said. Also the kind of music coming out these days do not require the dynamic range required by yesterday's music. And I suspect the listeners of today are not too discriminating of the sound quality of today's music.
I'm not an audiophile, all I really care about is a balanced sound that stays balanced at any volume.
News flash, you just described yourself as an audiophile
I want to be blown away too. I heard the guitar-vocal breakdown of Van Halen’s Why Can’t This Be Love on good system…and was blown away by the layering of the instruments. One acoustic guitar, one vocal type of recordings sound satisfying on my $70 soundcore.
I think most people, if they are thinking about it at all, can discern for themselves what sounds better to them and what sounds worse. They also assume the more expensive it gets, the better it's going sound, at least to those who care. I also think that you can only learn the differences by hearing them, as demonstrated with the music you listen to. At the truly high-end levels, the law of diminishing returns kicks in, and it becomes increasingly difficult to discern the differences. And, the differences may not be in terms of 'better' or 'worse' but rather simply personal preferences. Yikes - all this pressure. What a way to start Monday. :)
I was expecting the OTHER Steve Guttenberg :'(
I don’t know if it’s coincidence but I alluded to this subject in a comment on your previous video and overall the answer is yes, they recognise it, it catches them by surprise. Of course it helps if they here some music that is relevant to their tastes.
I remember the first time my Mom borrowed my K701 headphones just because her TV's speakers malfunctioned.
Her initial reaction was she totally got it why I was spending hundreds of dollars on headphones, which to her it seems like a waste.
She didn't complain about any of my spendings on audio equipment afterwards.
On the other hand, my Dad never really got what the fuss was about and ended up throwing away my SR325i and RS2 just because they look old with their retro looks when rummaging through my room one day.
He thinks they look of date and was doing me a favor by throwing it into the garbage, I lost two of my favorite headphones and didn't manage to salvage them in the dumps.
My Dad never really gave me an apology even though my Mom half forced him to cough up the damages done.
I ended up depressed when looking at audio equipments for four straight years before mustering up my courage again to buy a pair of GH2s just a couple of years ago.
I only fully recovered a few months ago when my local audio shop owner who knows what I like gave me a huge discount on a TEAC UD-501 did I finally found my joy back. I ended up dishing out my wallet on another pair of RS1e since I realized how much I missed my RS2.
Lesson Learned: It's worlds apart whether a non audiophile gets it or not.
I love your work on Police Academy.
DISCO-INFERNO-70 there's always one wag
I was considering leaving the same comment but I suspected someone beat me to it.
Yes. I've only had my system for about a year, and I've already gotten a couple of these from friends…
Them: Sounds good! Must be the CD instead of Spotify.
Me: It's a record…
Them: (walks over to stereo to see I'm not kidding) Hmm… I thought records were scratchy.
Me: Old and misused ones are.
Them: I need a record player!
Me: Turntable. Yes, you do. Don't buy a Crosley.
Right on!
Vinyl.....uhh ya ...new vinyl sure old forget about it, i do not even bother with it.
Why? Properly cared for vinyl from 30 to 40 years ago sound as good or better than the re-pressings of today. Just gotta make sure to clean them the right way! I listen to late 70's and 80's records all the time without any problems.
Excact. But i have another type of listeners- they never comment my speakers but when they hear something like never before the only one question is "what is the name and source of this recording?" because they suspect it is only a very wonderfull recording. In fact it is usually popular fidelity but by my system not distorted . They usualy ask me to borrow them that CD to try with their average systems. After they know that they missed badly but case is closed and something in our relation is lost. I think we may consider audio in terms of dressing. Some people pay a lot for fashionable things and are quite unhappy to discover that fashinable dress and also expensive high quality dress are two matters.
records only sound good with good speakers, a good turn table, and records that are in mint condition... unfortunately this isn't an easy thing to come by these days, because the turn tables that are flooding the market today are those cheap shit record players you find at those hipster clothing stores. and then the old records that were in great condition get destroyed by a hipster with a crappy turn table who also doesn't know how fragile records are. also the records of today are pressed way different than they were back in the day. they basically record off of a CD and then use that for pressing the record, which is stupid because it adds more variables that can make the sound worse than a CD.
its very heart warming to see there are still true audiophiles out there. :-) im 45 and I still have and use daily, my tannoy floor standers that I brought when I was 18! :-)
LARRY DAVID has an audiophile twin brother! O_O
I just brought a 1.50 usd headphones. (yes, 1 dollar and 50 cents) and now I feel I'm drinking very cheap wine.
Back in 1986 I was living in an apartment in Studio City California. I went to see the apartment manager one evening. He had lost almost everything he owned but he still had a turntable, an amp, and a pair of speakers. I wish I knew what they were. When I walked in he was playing something classical, an orchestra, from an LP. I felt like I could hear every instrument and tell you right where they were placed. It seemed so alive to me. I have spent many hours since then trying to match that tiny set-up he had that sounded so real. Maybe someday I'll make it. I turned audiophile that night and it has haunted me since then. But i love it.
We had friends over a few weeks ago. We were watching a football game in surround sound with our home theater. The announcers calling the game were coming from the center channel. The marching band and crowd was coming from the left/right and front/rear speakers. The subwoofers were kicking in. It sounded glorious. Our friends asked, "what are we listening to?" They were asking as if it sounded unusual or strange and they literally didn't know what they were listening to. It was quite an eye opening experience to me. For them, watching TV without any sort of AV or speaker system was normal. I wasn't getting compliments about the quality of sound. I was getting comments about how unusual it was. On the other hand, some of our friends know what they're hearing and I always get a lot of compliments in terms of how it sounds.
Jim K I Havnt yet heard a surround sound home theater outside the theater or a universal studios ride. I do wonder at times how it sounds. If I was there I’m sure I would be asking you all kinds of questions about your system and speakers and ask for movie demos and everything. It would of been fun.
Me personally I feel their is way too many clauses for good audio not only does it take some peculiar headphones but then a dac is needed. Carrying all these accessories in public is definitely a no-no imo. I feel high end audio is better suited for home audio, you can wear all the goofy looking headsets and hard wired them into dacs/amps for an experience.
I agree, people spend a lot money on portable players just because of the "hi-res audio" sticker.
Among the group "normal people" is the group musicians. I can almost guarantee, people with experience making music, especially acoustic music, would get it. As musicians we are very aware of sound and all of it's "flavors and quality". We are a subset that knows exactly what we should be hearing.
Agree also people that play instruments tend to be smarter in what they listen to and the equipment they listen with.
I have the same - I am used to play piano with keyboards and and acoustic piano as well. And it is unbareable to suffer piano sound with bad transducers . In some ranges piano sounds like mess with no chords recognizable. The same with headphones. . To overcome it finally I emplyed tube stereo A type amp from 1963 connected to speaker sets made with drivers from 1959. At last I know what is played by me.
Mikexception I am also pursuing the Grail of great clarity, excellent dynamic range, perfect sound stage and close your eyes believe it's real reproduction. A difficult quest on a working mans wages. When I come to a solution, I hope to discuss it here.
I never say about price as price paid is only confusing in presenting fidelity. Money cannot secure accuracy which has to be gained finally by learning and hands. In my opinion audio "holy grail" with even highest money is out of reach if not aligned in each possible way. by user. . If somebody gets into deep hole of highest personal requirements only he is able to reach it. Nobody can sell it to him. And he must know most difficult - what and why he is chasing for. . Better to stop thinking about money. I only presented what I did myself - not purchased. . And this is done only for clarity - no much more. Power 2x2,5W gained from unique tube radio amp which is out of any HI FI classification .but secures natural sound pressure and very trusty tone in whole range. Sound is GEM - one of best brands, which I purchased damaged and repaired. If not I should buy Yamaha Grand for 10k USD. A difficult quest.
Mikexception Didn't mean to imply money was the answer, but in any pursuit it can help. This sound problem is a balancing act. As I said I haven't solved mine. I don't need to reach the top of possible combinations, just to the combination that satisfies my ears. Like cracking a safe the first try isn't usually successful. I don't measure this in money, as you said , that doesn't solve it.
What you say is so true Steive, when I bought my heresy ii I played fleet wood Mac for my wife and she didn’t get It or seemed to be impressed. Then I invited my mom over to listen, and she was jamming like she was in front of a concert and wanted to buy the same pair I had. It was nice to know she understand and appreciated their value
I enjoy your presentation and your level of respect for other people. I've often heard of audiophiles belittling non-audiophiles and I'm glad you do the complete opposite. I don't consider myself an audiophile, but as a passionate and relentless music listener, I do understand how to listen for specific things and the idea that different qualities of speakers and audio gear can have incredibly prominent effects on the listening experience. I love sound, and I love the art of making beautiful sound and authentic sound, and therefor I care to have audio equipment that allows me to experience the beauty and artistry in the sound of the music I like to listen to at a reasonably high level. I don't have the means or patience to let myself get caught up in the details of higher end audio at this time in my life, but I do require my speakers and headphones to have a high degree of clarity, depth, and dynamics.
What you didn't say, but maybe should have said to be entirely honest, is that people with money are buying high-end audio equipment because it's a status symbol rather than because they know or care about the quality of the sound. They want to be seen as having good taste, and to show off their expensive equipment. Big and loud serves that purpose until they learn that loud is not necessarily good, and then want to know what is good - what will impress their friends. High end audio stores are there to stroke the ego and serve that market.
The audiophile industry also serves that market by making big, heavy, visual and tactile products to appeal to those wanting to show off their systems. Audio magazines like Stereophile very much appeal to that cult. I appreciate your focus on lower cost products and hope the industry moves towards better value rather than ego stroking.
I hope you'll talk more about setup and speaker placement - how to get the most out of what you've got.
I disagree a bit. A large number of people who hear a good system will recognize it as being good. However, after hearing it they don't have the desire to go out and buy a quality system. I once gave someone good quality bookshelf speakers. Sometime later she said really enjoyed listening to music from good speakers that day. But the only time that I know of she actually listened to music on the speakers was day she made the comment to me. There was no desire to listen to more music from those speakers or to acquire something better. She heard it once and that was enough for the time being. Different strokes for different folks.
Cliff
Yep, and they think that for the price paid for good audio, they could just hire a live band to play in their home.
Depending on the band, yeah maybe, but only once.
it's a placebo, l have done a little experiment to prove it. l got a bunch of friends who listen to ear buds or a bluetooth speaker most of the time. and l put a group of them in front of a pair of generic bookshelf speakers and l told then that they were top quality best of the best, and then l put them in front of a pair of real audiophile grade speakers and told them that they were the worst of the worst and they said the generic speakers sounded better.
then I tried the experiment again but told them which ones where the high quality speakers and which ones where the generics, and their opinion completely turned around. they don't know what they are listening for, so if they hear somebody say that this is good sound even if it isn't then they will associate that sound with being good even if it's just a bunch of rumbling bass sounds.
exactly! that's the point, they don't know the difference.
Cliff: yes-- recognizing good sound is one thing; caring about the fact that it's good-- being MOVED by good sound-- is something else.
it depends on somebody's opinion of good, some people prefer hissing tweeters and rumbling subwoofers. personally l want it to sound as close to the real thing as possible, but other people just want the power and don't care about the sound.
There are definitely people who get it, but very few. Most folks who have the good fortune to hear my he-man rig (LOL) are unmoved. They just don't get it. But once in a while, the eyes bug out, the jaw drops, the goose bumps, the emotional excitement comes out. I don't know why so few are impacted this way, but that's how people are.
I love your comments they are so true. I started life in a music school aged 8 and was asked to choose a musical instrument and I chose the violin.
The next thing I was doing an interview in a cathedral like church being asked to read music on an organ and turn the pages for him. The thing that struck me was the acoustics and reverberation in huge space. I loved music and listened a lot. I have quite a varied choice in music and was not afraid to be inquisitive in my taste.
Anyway I ended up in London working in the Audio ~ or Hi Fi trade.
I am convinced that listening is a learnt behaviour.
I had many customers whose first question was how many watts it that amp and how much are those boxes where size was the premium.
At the same time I had many discerning customers and musicians who valued my opinion. I would often play them a piece of music and ask them if they could hear a specific instrument.
Once you have been to a great full rehearsal in an auditorium with a major orchestra you know what Hi Fi really is.
Jeremy Travis formerly Teletape London
Yeah, I believe a person's musical background, education, and experience are the most important factors regarding how much they will know and care about music and sonic fidelity.
Normal people can not get the stuff you like maybe beacause they can't afford it. (Obviously)
They can find ways to bring home something else that's just as expensive, that they don't need, and can't afford but the credit card is now maxed out. Affording it is not the problem, it's what you consider spending the money on. You know as well as I do that Americans are in debt up to their ear lobes. So if they don't have an expensive stereo, there's something that they spent too much money on.
My son,saving up for his first LP12,21 years old was raised with middle class members of theBose,B&O and MP3 set.His friends have not grewn up with good sound when they first hear analogue they appreciate it and wothin 1/2 an hour they have,especially the girlies have been converted.3 of them now own Regasalong with 2 in the group with aPL12D and aDual 505.The best way to bring our message to the massesis to relate to the music and not the message.
just because something is analog doesn't mean it's good. BTW digital is the best if you have the right format, l mean if you're downloading MP3's then you're a pleb. the real audiophiles use lossless files (FLAC/ALAC) or raw files (WAV).
Non-audiophiles can't miss what they haven't heard before. It makes me sad thinking about it.
Great points raised Steve. An amp's wattage power, as a first concern from novice buyers, still to some extent lingers on among seasoned hobbyists and those like minded.
This really is a fascinating subject!!! I don’t consider myself an audiophile, but I love “good” quality music or recording! Quality sound, I think, depends on the individual. If I can’t tell the difference between a $1000 and a $5000 set of speakers, why buy the $5000 set? ☮️🖖🏽
Real audiophiles get a bad name from the ones who say a $200 silver-plated power cable changes the sound of their system. This isn't RF/Microwave gear. It does make a difference for that, but not audio.
Room acoustics, speakers, amplifiers, and DACs do make a large difference. Any decent cable will be audibly identical.
ANY cable will be identical as long as it handles the current and it doesn't pass near a source of interference, or if it does then it needs good shielding...other than that its just a fucking conductor
Also, just think of all those hundreds of metal alloy blobs known as solder joints dotted around your hardware PCBs..
Part of the reason I left the industry. Insane prices for cables and power supplies. lol. monster cable...
Not true.
@@MrHBSoftware Not true. "Good shielding" is very difficult to achieve and for speaker cable, their is more to things than sufficient current delivery.
It took me a long time to appreciate good sound . . . I think a good system is a quality of life issue.
Steve Tllsdaleys What’s your issue?
I love my Genelec 8250's with the 7271a duel sub, awesome clarity and frequency response.
I found a 70's analog receiver (not tube) and some realistic 150 watt speakers. Not even close to the best. I bought Gladys Night, Midnight Train To Georga vinyl on and it was unreal.
Bob Claypool Yup when all you've heard is crap that should sound amazing. Now go hear something really good, and you'll be hooked. Or maybe you shouldn't actually. :)
BTW you related to Les Claypool? Lol
Andrew Balus no, not related. I do have a John Bonham era and size drum set, that keeps me satisfied when I have to be brought back to reality...lol.
Bob Claypool Very cool. Love that guy because he was into dragsters. Not a bad drummer either. Lol
I still remember the day he died. I didn't even know who he was, until my brother told me. He kept his obituary from our local paper on his wall in his room. Reminds me of when Lennon died too. I had already asked for Double Fantasy for Christmas, because I just got into the Beatles around that same time, and was just becoming a fan (I'll be 46 in a couple of weeks).
Both of their deaths got me to listen to more, and really helped set my tastes in music. Along with my brother too of course who's 4 years older, and practically lived at our local used record store in Newport RI. It was called Doo Wop Records, and they used a colored tag system. So pink was say $3.00, and blue was $4.00 etc. Miss that place, and those times.
Enjoy the music my friend.
you should use flacs or cd's
Bose, Sonos, Devialet, Beats … all essentially marketing companies. But I can say the same about many expensive “high-end” “audiophile” brands the cater mostly to the “carriage trade” (people wanting to buy high-status brands who have little interest in music or good sound).
Yes, I think non-audiophiles DO hear the difference. It's just that doesn't really matter to them.
Imagine that you had a friend who really loved to sew and owned a high-end $50,000 sewing machine made in Switzerland. If they let you try it out, you would immediately appreciate how beautiful it looks, how solid it feels, how smoothly it runs, how accurately it tracks, and how all-around fantastic it is. You'd probably say, "Wow, that's a truly amazing sewing machine!" But you wouldn't run out and buy one, and you would forget about it in a week or two.
That's what it's like when my non-audiophile friends listen to my system. They say, "Wow, that sounds fantastic!", and I think they really mean it, but none of them have ever decided to buy a good audio system for themselves. They recognize good sound, but it's just not a high priority for them -- especially when they find out how much high-end audio costs!
Interesting. As a non-audiophile, I liked your descriptions of what to listen for in quality audio systems.
The room is just as important as the gear. Even moving my head slightly or closing the door has a large effect on what I hear in my studio monitors.
The true test is to listen before you have an idea of the price. Knowing something is expensive makes you subconsciously think it sounds better. It gets harder to be unbiased as you become more knowledgeable about the industry, because you know what products tend to be expensive.
I'm incredibly happy with my JBL LSR305 studio monitors. $300 for the pair and it sounds better than anything I've ever heard that was under $1000. Would I get something better if price was no object? Yep!
Excellent Points.
I've seen folks, musicians included, get the Hi-Fi bug
after hearing a true JBL high end PA systems
which are AMAZING even magical sounding.
A supernatural Hi-Fi tech behind JBL's audio systems.
Do their consumer speakers get the same attention when built?
That's where we come in.
We have to do our home work to see what manufacturer is delivering
the 3D sonic goods.
Because that's exactly what the JBL club speakers deliver.
I know, because I've over 25 years of experience in recording albums
and the live support afterwards.
~ peace
My Grandmother (who doesn't even listen to music anymore) was hearing my Elac B6.2 and she said "Wow! It sounds like the singer is right here in the room!". I've never talked to her about audio at all.
She honestly did. She used to listen to a lot of live music, her brother was an Elvis impersonator actually.
So many variables go into a great audio experience. It is quite relative, depending on the education of the listener. Someone went to a 3rd world culture where they didn't have a word in their language for the color blue. When the native people were asked to differentiate the actual color blue from another color, they weren't able to do it. The mind is just as important, if not more so, than a person's ears. What one is pre-positioned to perceive is very important. I couldn't distinguish between the instruments in a band, as clearly as I could after I joined band and learned what each instrument sounded like. I began to apply this knowledge to my general music listening experience and it opened up a "can of worms" and a "bouquet of flowers". Now it became unsatisfying to listen to a sound source that didn't reveal the true character of instruments. The more you know, the more discerning and appreciative you can be. Also it becomes more difficult to please your ear and easier to displease it. There's a price to pay for more discerning tastes. I've considered it worth the price.
That happens to me ..They always said...that must be sounds really loud .....and I was like 😠
Francisco lobo If a system can play amazing quality at low volume, you know it's a very expensive setup.
Henric Carlsson very true my friend