Have Fighting Games Changed? Knee fights Twitter
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- Опубліковано 26 кві 2024
- If Tekken players think Tekken 8 sucks, where do we go from here?
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Hey guys! Glad you guys are loving the video! Also, we noted the comments about the lights. Stay tuned yall!
always. Best channel on YT 😍
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people whine too much
Being a new Tekken player my biggest takeaway is to overwhelm the other person with endless low mid mixup. Like, never stop attacking unless they have a rage art and even then if you have the health to tank it, it's worth it to take the risk in order to win the round. Combos are an afterthought to me. If T7 was a martial arts tournament, T8 is a bar fight.
Learn combos and punishment; that’s how you play Tekken; not spamming the same braindead strings
@@Joneshing People try to play like that against me and they get steamrolled waiting for me to make a mistake. I'm not out out here pressing random hop kicks like a fool. I stay in my frames at all times.
You have completely missed the new patch notes which is the FIRST big balance patch.
Don’t shit your pants yet, the game is still in an early form because T8 will be the Tekken game for 8 years before T9 comes out.
@@epicon6 I watched an extensive review on the patch notes. None of it affects me in the slightest. We'll see what they do to Lili this Summer. As long as they leave her DF1, D3 and DF44 alone I'll be fine. I doubt anything drastic will be done to the character and even so I'm not changing my main.
@@rabbyd542 df4,4 is a noob move. That low will never hit me unless the first is a counter hit. Her df1 sucks.
I know rank doesn't matter, but what is your rank.?
"Games that Sonic Fox can't win in" HAHAHAHAHA
"kof players will go back to the old game while tekken players just complain"
the most real shit i have ever heard. tekken players refuse to play what they like. their favorite match up is crying on twitter.
Honestly, that take would only be valid if older Tekken games were as accessible as older KoF games are.
KoF players get to have their older entries playable, with rollback netcode, on Fightcade AND in official re-releases with GGPO retrofitted. Same with older Guilty Gear entries.
Tekken players only have the worst entry of the series playable with rollback on Fightcade and all other older entries have to be bought in the secondhand market to be played on out-of-production consoles (or pirated on PC) with poor netcode or NO NETPLAY at all.
KoF legacy players are super privileged. Its easy to stop complaining and just play your favorite entry when you can actually do that (and legally on modern hardware, too) with excellent netcode.
The circumstances are too different to expect the same behavior from legacy players of Tekken or any other series that aren't as privileged.
If you don't like the newest entries of your favorite FG series and that series isn't Guilty Gear, from SNK, on Fightcade, or Melee, you're just out of luck.
@@s_factor_sam I fully agree, so much so that I’m usually the one making this argument. The only thing on the horizon for tekken legacy is psx rollback which still hasn’t got FC lobby integration and a branch of psp rollback which doesn’t seem to be going anywhere anytime soon. It’s shit
Currently there's 900 people in Tekken 7 while there's 9000 in Tekken 8.
Just to put Xian's final speech into some perspective
So 900 legacy aka good tekken players playing t7 again and 100 of them are still in T8 and the rest of 8900 are scrubby players in T8.😅
a big problem with going back to old games when the new game sucks is that nowadays we are forced to update games and often the last update of a game is an experiment for the next installment and balance isn't really the focus.
just look at USF4. i could've played SF4AE for a long time, but near the end of its lifetime they added a bunch of new characters and never bothered to balance them.
i'm not sure if these companies do it on purpose, but once they catch on that this tactic drives up sales and player numbers for the new game, they will do it every time.
Melee is actually another great example for this. NTSC 1.02 is what everybody plays in a competitive setting, nobody plays the updated PAL version, if everybody was forced to update their copy of melee and there was no reasonable way to play NTSC 1.02, then the entire melee scene would not exist.
Match settings are another huge part of why melee is such an incredible game. imagine if we could just turn off heat and rage in tekken 8 custom matches, or tweak life and damage values. the players could determine what the ultimate way to play tekken is.
I don't know why, but for a few episodes now the lighting in the studio changed and now it's a bit too dark
We're calling the electricians to fix it. On a real note, we're looking into it for subsequent videos! Thank you!!!
Xian and Mike together is godlike
The heroes the fgc deserve.
Appreciate it yall
facts
Xian’s GOAT’d for that ending speech. It’s true tho. SNK World Tour with KOFXIV wasn’t getting traction so what other tournaments were included? 02UM and XIII. lol.
2002 is amazing, as a new KOF player
2002 is super fun for sure
It’s very refreshing to see Mike again and Xian is growing on me too such a great duo love the channel guys!
Thanks for the support!
I think it would be good to get some more light in the studio. It’s super dark especially the camera angles from the side 🙏.
We're on it!
All Knee said that he wasn't having fun and the game is obnoxiously aggressive which it is and every one and they mama jumped on him 😂 gotta love the Tekken community
I think Valle was actually trying to keep people from doing that with his quote tweet, but he just made it worse.
So it's basically like sf6. Mindlessly aggressive.
@@blodiaaa6990 If you played mindlessly aggressive in SF 6 then you will get washed badly.
Outside of top tiers its not that bad
I am not top tier (but i still fall into offline-high level) and i also think T8 is a bad game as a tekken game. As a non tekken aka some random 3d game, its ok. If they released the game with different name and as a separate game then there wouldn't have been any problem and actual tekken player base would still be playing tekken 7 and tekken 7 tournaments/events.
He said Valle don't know what he talking about! Gotta love the Tekken community 😂
To show how little legacy skill there is in Smash Bros, they ran an event at LACS where four Melee pros fought one Ultimate pro in Ultimate one after another.
On the Ultimate side, you have Skyjay, who is a top 40 player using a mid tier.
On the Melee side, you have Cody, (#1 in the world) Zain, (#2 in the world) Amsa, (Top 10) and Salt. (Top 20)
COLLECTIVELY, the Melee players took a single stock from Skyjay. He really made them look like they were a bunch of randoms.
Ive been playing since 64, and Melee will always be my best/favorite game, but Ive still enjoyed each subsequent smash game for what it is.
No one here knows what your talking about. Take that shit to smash boards
This is crazy
12:47 Xian's spittin' facts
No he isn't lmfao
The Tekken community largely abandoned Tekken 4 when it came out and continued primarily playing Tag 1 instead, just like the KoF players with 98 vs later versions.
Tekken 5 even had a bit of a divide because it had a rough launch balance wise. Once DR was out and beloved universally, people kept with the main version.
Companies now host official circuits for the newest version and people are trying to make a living off getting sponsored and such. Impossible to do so if you hate the current version and want to just play the old ones.
Miek Roos on youtube brings inner peace
All is right
Love Xian's breakdown of why SonicFox can't break into the Big Two of fighters
Love content like this from you guys.
Glad to see you back Mike!
(This is my main chicken 🐔)
It feels like this debate has been escalating for the last 15ish years. I think it is okay to remove some of the mechanic bloat if the developers want to appeal to a broader audience. Some of the most technical games out there are under the radar due in part by needing so much time and knowledge in order to be at a "beginner" level. It is exceedingly hard to make viable defensive options that feel fun to use but doesn't cripple the experience for the other player.
In general though, my opinion means little more than the next person's and it means even less in comparison to people whom can spread their opinion to a vast amount of people. So I generally block/mute any and all conversations about fruitless topics like this. The Devs will do what they want and what their publisher tells them to do. Not enough people vote with both their wallet and time so the gaming industry as a whole will continue to decline.
It sucks for the semi-pro and pro players out there since this stuff is their work environment, but for literally everyone else: these are games, play the ones that are fun for you. Join a discord server or other social media group if it is hard to get people to play it with. If that isn't an option: share your love of the game with the internet. Even if it isn't a large group of people, every game has a level of fanbase one just needs to find it or be the one to bring it together.
Still wild that one fellow tried to dunk on RTSDValle. He isn't perfect but still he deserves so much respect for what he has done for the FGC as a whole.
2:32 this is crazy to hear but so refreshing and true to hear.
My thoughts on Tekken 8 are that all the legacy skill requirements are still there, but are much more difficult to use viably. The new mechanics are tuned for casual players and this leads to matches where people of higher skill levels feel that they're being robbed. I can see where they're coming from but Tekken has always been a knowledge-checky type of game so people are always going to feel robbed, just like how all the people in that tournament felt robbed when Mike Ross beat them with Marduk.
It's a difficult line to walk and I don't envy the developers or the balance team but I do think they need to make a decision about how they want their competitive scene to look because a lot of matches at the pro level are starting to blend together and look the same.
If they were to find a way to make the Heat mechanics more punishable for the pros by making adjustments like removing tracking from heat smashes or making heat burst on block punishable, they might be able to find a sweet balance for both types of players.
I don't have a blue checkmark though, so I have no idea what the hell I'm talking about.
That's some good takes you got there, I think. I am mainly a 2d player and only started playing Tekken with T8's release this year, and it feels quite scrambly and volatile at times, but I do actually enjoy it a lot. When I watch tournaments of the older Tekken games, they sure look different, specifically the pacing.
I totally agree that it's very possible to change the heat system in a meaningful way (and maybe limit rage art to once per game?) without destroying the soul of the game. I'm curious to see how Namco will respond
No blue checkmark no problem. Especially when you are spitting FACTS
Xian and Mike VS Twitter could be a series😂🔥
I think you can have some pretty valid criticism of Tekken 8, and the "you are salty because legacy skill isn't valid anymore" is a pretty weak comeback. It's actually possible to not be thrilled about how hard defensive play has been neutered in 8, without it being about legacy skill or win/loss ratio.
Personally, i'm doing better in 8 than i ever did in earlier Tekken games, but i still find the new systems and agressive style to be a lot less interesting and fun than previous games. Might be more exciting for people watching tournaments, but it's less fun to play for me. Those tense moments where both players are trying to read eachoter in the neutral are barely there anymore.
I prefer to say nothing because I may not know what I am talking about 😂😂😂
I like this kind of content. hope we get more of this in the future!
For sure! Every Tuesdays and Thursdays. Stay tuned!
My issue with tekkien is not that offense is buffed, that part is totally okay, but the fact that the game mostly revolves around guessing now, is the issue. And there are to many moves without any answers like the heat system. Street Fighter 6 is okay because despite some things being really powerful, you still have an answer for everything, which in tekken you don't.
I understand the frustration, chip damage combined with heat mechanics and busted moves and frames leaves is kinda of a lose lose situation. You block like 5 seconds worth of pressure and got chipped about 30% hp, but if you challenge the frames you get launched for 60% hp. Its not very interactive and fair.
It's especially frustrating when the animation does not reflect your situation. Some attacks that are actually punishable on block don't appear so visually. I don't recall the exact move, but I know Dragunov has an attack that makes like looks like your minus frames, but you can actually punish it. This might not be a big deal to people who know the matchup, but when your trying to learn the game and don't feel like spending hours in the lab, its very annoying.
A lot of newer fighting games are "dumbed down" to expand the audience, and that shortens the gap between new and legacy players, but the ceiling still looms high above everyone, including legacy players. Even SF6 has changed quite a bit in terms of the views of certain characters (e.g. Blanka being considered much higher in the tier list than at release). I think this discourse will eventually calm down once everyone adjusts to the system mechanics of their respective games (or just get used to it).
For sure. Many of these games are in their first iteration and even then, we still see many familiar names continue to perform despite a change in titles.
I find Valle's routine tiresome. Anytime someone doesn't pay tribute he pulls the "Do you know who I am?" card.
The fact Valle was good at SF2 has no weight in discussing Tekken. I don't even agree with Knee, but good for him.
It still amazes me how after all this time, there is still a monstrous amount of people who believe, for some reason, that because they're good at one game in a series they should be good at all fighting games.
Just because you know how to play fighting games doesn't mean you're going to enjoy every single one. It also doesn't mean you're going to be good at every single fighting game, either.
Where one might excel in SFV, they get absolutely demolished in SF6, or vice versa. Is this new? Not really, the same shit happened when we moved from SFIV to SFV; it just wasn't as massive of an outcry because a lot of people didn't like SFV when it came out.
It is insane to me how much people would rather bitch about new mechanics and design philosophies, than actually learn to use and work around them effectively as they had in the games they loved. I'm not gonna sit here and tell anyone MK1 is a bad game because of it's design, but I am going to tell you that I don't enjoy how it is played and that's all any player can really say on the matter.
The severe amount of copium the FGC has been on recently is shocking.
Hey
I just want my Guilty Gear Xrd Rev3
Rev2 is perfect in terms of offensive and defensive mechanics
I view it as a perfect fusion of new and old, nothing to add and nothing to remove from it
I just want it to have bugfixes, small balance adjustments, and Bridget, Testament and Robo-Ky
That will be enough for next God knows how many years
Gonna be a min until another guilty gear cause strive is still going.
After recent interviews I don't hold any hopes anyway, just did that same thing that one legend wrote behind hosts on stream, "Где мой rev3?"
The best players from T7 are still the best in T8. The series hasn't gone thru an overhaul like the SF series has so legacy skills still play a role in T8.
Tekken games are just bad as MK. 🤣🤣🤣🤣 Why you think Sonic Fox never do well in KOF and SF...at least Tekken would be even level with MK for Sonic? 🤣
Interesting point about KOF players going back to previous versions of the game if the new iterations are bad. In my opinion, it stands out to me that you can't really do much of the same with SF4 or SFV because the final patches for those games included characters or balance tweaks that resulted in a very unfun experience to go back to.
Also, legacy KoF and Guilty Gear are particularly privileged by having both official re-releases retrofitted with rollback netcode AND Fightcade.
All the Tekken legacy community has, on modern hardware, are the worst entry of the series on Fightcade and T7 with worse netcode than 8 has.
If only more FG publishers would imitate SNK and ArcSysthen. Then more of us who don't enjoy the newest entries COULD okay the older ones with satisfactory playing conditions.
they don't care about you, they have their ip and want to make money off it, they keep putting out shit and you keep eating it, you get what you deserve (fifa, cod, dlcs, early access, preorders, microtransactions) enjoy
the messed up thing is with how games are patched you cant get the game you want to keep alive without dodgy websites
This happens a lot in card games, new sets get released old players who were strong get overcome with new mechanics. Not as common in fighting games.
Xian nailed it. The man's a veteran.
Great discussion guys :D thanks for the upload!!!
Only time will decide tekken 8's fate. Let's watch and see
Justin Wong won Tekken at final round back in the day.
2:31 this is the funniest way of defining legacy games
2:30 , I agree.
And yes, it's a shot. He's not good at games where you must have a deep understanding of the mechanics to be good. He's a big fish in small pond.
I am not a legacy Tekken player at all, I started with Tekken 7 (in 2021 covid got me into the game) and really enjoyed that game.
I played Tekken 8 and I don't like how overly aggressive the game is. I am now playing SF6 because I feel SF6 is balanced when it comes to aggressive and defensive mechanics.
The drive system have enough nuisance to where I feel like I can have fun with any character I pick and not feel completly overwhelmed by some hyper offensive character unlike in Tekken 8.
This is the same boat I’m in, I’m deciding to stick to SF cuz I’d rather spend time on that to learn it because tekkens too aggressive and strategy doesn’t matter
I stand with Xian with KOF. That game franchise & Neo Geo titles in general had always been next level for me and my older brother, If i got half good at it i reckon i'd be naturally sound in any other fighter. One franchise i've always wanted to get good at but for over a decade i just suck lol
It's great that old SNK titles are kept alive and have vibrant communities (and it'd be great if they centralized around the most updated versions), but I also think it would be great for the future upward mobility of SNK if they also made a concerted effort towards supporting the most recent titles when the passion of the game devs is clear. COTW could be a movement!
Me and my friends did the same, we went back to T7. We just couldn't bear the scrubby-ness of tekken 8 any longer. But we do come back once a week just for the laughs and giggles. T8 is just so funny to watch, but some players are still playing a good tekken. I just watched momo-dog playing devil jin with another devil jin and they were playing the game the tekken way and it was so good to watch those matches compared to what normally people are playing it.
T8 is the ultimate scrub fest, even complete idiots can put pressure on veteran players because the mechanics of the system are too juiced up. With the press of a single button you can force 50/50's and can remove half of someone's HP. The game is way too volatile.
😮
With SF6 and Tekken 8, its become very aggressive, with ways to get in unabated, tekken 8's stance cancels being made extremely fast.
Watching the top level of SF6 at EVO JP, I’d say “getting in unabated” has NOT been very common. At lower level, fb+dr is king and can be frustrating for sure though, but I haven’t seen it work nearly as much as earlier in the game’s life.
100% agree with whats been said. Everyone needs to start supporting the games they love more than feeling forced to support "current game" just because it's the latest. Look at Third Strike, it has a main slot at Evo this year, for good reason. No reason other franchises can't do the exact same.
I sympathize with both sides but with the modern fighting game eSports approach it's kinda hard to go against the curve and tell people don't play the new game come play some old game with shit netcode and no pro tour
Definitely.
I don't know what I'm talking about but it seems like, at least for the recent generation of fighting games, there's not enough opportunity to build legacy skill when balance updates are so much more frequent. As easy as it is to complain about the current state of balance in a game, if you were forced to live with it for years, you'd probably learn to deal with it or just quit. People have to play the current version of the game long enough to understand the nuance between bad balance and just not understanding how to deal with something.
I think Tekken 8 is absolutely more scrubby than T7. I knew this would happen when they started pushing the "Aggression" narrative. Idk why fighting games keep toning down Their defensive mechanics!
As for Knee, his opinion is valid. It's one thing to change a game and it's still fun. But Knee is saying he's not having fun because of the NEANDERTHAL playstyle the game allows from it's ultra-Aggressive mechanics.
because defense is difficult and these companies desperately want to get more players, but rather than making a more casual new franchise or spinoffs, they neuter their mainline games.
imagine if counter strike's next installment was a fornite clone (or whatever shooter is the most popular at the time) to appeal to a bigger audience, and they removed their traditional team fight, tactical modes in favor of fast action and marketability.
this is what fighting games have been doing for a while now.
Best way to think about it is F your feelings it’s about making money and it’s working. These companies are a business at the end of the day. Retaining more players seems to be working too
sadly, this is just the way of fighting games. ur game dies as a hero or lives long enough to become generic rps simulator. most likely best to just stop thinking about them as tekken games from now on. they are completely abandoning that identity of blocking and avoiding offence well in favor of overloaded offensive situations. more interesting to me is caiper being boiled down to any old twitter "check mark". obviously xian and mike dont have intricate knowledge of tekken, but caiper is among the best in the world, and valle hasn't competed since the 90s. so id say honestly theres a good chance that from caiper's vantage point valle really doesnt know what he's talking about.
I have a different take on the legacy skills gatekeeping argument. My local was getting over 60 people weekly during USF4 with new players joining left and right. When SFV dropped it basically killed the entire scene. First few weeks there were a lot of players but then everyone just dropped the game and the locals eventually dwindled to about 15-20 players. They couldn't go back to USF4 because Capcom was partially funding these tournaments and wouldn't allow that. It was kind of sad to see TBH.....
Change is always tough. With things like the pro tour and prize money on the line, its only realistic for players to gravitate towards newer games :(
I want to see xian & mike play Bushido blade 😂
Give Tekken 8 a chance to get some balance patches out. Honestly a big fix would be remove the chip damage and let you use your heat for defense not just for office. Add more defensive capabilities in the game.
That's not going to happen, they don't want tekken 8 to be defensive.
I actually think that it’s not just “legacy” skill being removed. But more importantly it’s the neutral game being removed.
It would be the equivalent of making sports rules, and shortening the arena/field size in a sport to only accommodate offensive strategies. Which remove core fundamental skills like passing and dribbling through the other team. Now, everyone can pressure the goalie for free.
Great video
We see it with newer games like Strive for example, where the general screen size is smaller, the action is closer and in your face. Understanding and playing good Neutral is definitely a true "Legacy" skill, but at the same time, we can see it as a gateway for newer players to come in. Where we go from there is a whole nother topic tho. Regardless, thank you for the support!
Good example. Your offense should be earned....and it's earned through training and conditioning your opponent to hesitate when they should in fact attack.
Its that simple. Every gun needs to reload.
Even if you a a machine gun 100 rounds, the gun would be heavy your movement wil be restricted.
Your using a hand gun, movement very high, low mag size must reload a lot, but can be aggressive due ease of movement, only draw is you have to be accurate with your shots.
Tekken 8 is like a machine hand gun with no recoil and unlimited ammo. .... no one wants to fight against that.
Depends on what you consider to truly be neutral, what games are in your library and to which you think that's essential, and when you think "legacy" skill started to kick in. By default, the screen space actually increased when the vast majority of fighters went from 4:3 to 16:9, and games in recent memory have been trying to recreate that OG feel by zooming in the camera.
And since the Neutral is what I enjoy most about fighting games, what I fell in love with the genre for (not combos), they're killing my enjoyment as they reduce Neutral and nerf defense.
And the majority of entries I DID enjoy over the last 22 years are not even playable on modern hardware nor with decent netcode.
If the game isn't going to change then why even make/play a new game
The only thing missing from this awesome video
Is some new awesome light ☺️
The interesting thing about Tekken 8 is that legacy players were still on the top 6, even top 24 of evo japan 2024
Xian spitting facts all throughout the video Jesus Christ 😮😂
bad take though. i think it goes both ways. see justin wong struggling at tekken 8. 3d mechanics is too much for him. at 2d you can turtle block but not on tekken. you have to be aware at all times
I like the glasses guy asian swagger
I blame the SF4 haters that called it "too defensive" for years and now all we get is pure-aggro-yolo guessing games with easy execution
i'm half-kidding (there's pros and cons to everything)
Tekken does seem like one of the only games where as far as I'm aware no one is really playing the older games. Even with SF people will still play 3S. With GG people are playing +R and kinda REV2. People are still playing MvC2 or UMvC3 over MvCI obviously. Xian pointed out KOF of course.
But with Tekken I don't think you really hear about people playing the older ones. I sure don't hear about it at least.
I think it's mainly the competitive scene that moved on to Tekken 8, as far as my circle goes we still playing Tekken 7 but pretty much because we're not trying to get the game early and have to wait for content (buying the game base doesn't feel like a great investment either with everything going on rn)
As Xian said at the end, with things like world tournaments and prize money, along with the incentive of being signed to an org as a Pro Player™ many will be inclined to play the newer games. But with EVO JP we saw the prize money for 3rd Strike. The possibility is there but slim.
The legacy Tekken community isn't as privileged as Guilty Gear or KoF.
ArcSys and SNK re-released older entries of theor games on modern hardware, retrofitted with rollback netcode, AND a lot of those titles are on Fightcade.
What do Tekken players, who don't like the newest entry, have?
The worst entry of the series on Fightcade and T7 with worse netcode than 8 has.
The gap in privilege and accessibility is MASSIVE.
If I wanted to play Tekken 6 or Tag 2, I have to dust off the old Xbox 360 and get a copy, as well as pay for Xbox Live, to play on terrible netcode. Or get it and a PS3 to play on even worse netplay.
And theres no way Namco will do what SNK and ArcSys did.
As shown by Tekken 8, they dont care enough about legacy players to make the newest game enhoyable for us, much less put any time and money into giving us the games we DO enjoy with a satisfactory netplay experience.
"Get with the times or get out" is the defining mindset of modern fighting games.
Forced outmoding.
Had a great time listening to this one. I do enjoy games evolving and being different in future iterations but that alone doesn't make them fun or interesting to play. People are entitled to their opinions on new games just as much as others are entitled to return to legacy titles or have a blast with the new stuff. I for one think SF6, Strive and T8 are all fun amazing games.
Tekken 8 is fun but I really miss my boy Fahkumram, I’m praying to all the gods that he comes as DLC soon
I like old school like Virtua Fighter Bloody Roar and Dead or Alive but not tekken is very overrated and the customization is very poor.
Great article
It's weird that back then Capcom was like, "yo, we need to add defense mechanics to Vampire Savior dog, this game is hella agressive, we need to shove push block in this B**** A** game." and now every developer is like F*** defensive mechanics and give every game a command dash cancel and make obnoxious shit plus on block.
2:37 yoo mikes reaction to what xian said about sonic 😂😂😂
time to launch the versusvortexpodcast
Fuck! Didn't know you had a new channel Mike!
Now bring back ol' GooT for a couple of rounds!
Mike Ross a legend and feel i like fighting games died when they added max supers that leave you under half of bar it took away the realism for me. Fighting games just need regular supers
Go even further back and play T5DR. That was the most complete version of Tekken imo.
Great discussion!
WHAT DID IT DO???
That is the problem. Tekken is turning into streetfighter with all the bars and supers instead of focusing on what it was. Just skip the game and wait for T9 or just play another game. I skipped T6 and Tag too.
I've been playing Tag 2 since I quit Tekken 8 after the first month. I've been having way more fun, even with all cheese
Mike saying you don't know what the fuck you're talking about was so godlike 😭
i am not a legacy player. i started season 4 sfv. I HATE drive rush. it is scrubby. even if you like it i feel you cannot dispute that. i know people who started with sf6 and they also dislike drive rush. On top of that i think dr and character balance makes the game boring to watch on an esports level.
i believe esports is the grounding force that dictates the direction of many current games, especially fighters. i think we all remember how boring the last cpt was. luke ken juri army. whats the juri going to do? dr pressure. whats the luke gonna do? mp drive rush pressure. etc etc so boring.
Deeply respect your works veterans. Thank you so much
You can't have a KOF 98/2002 with this era in Tekken...sadly for some.
With the amounts of players that T8 had the first month you can justify any new change, regardles of how much of the legacy skills they took away.
And despite the blue check mark and all the credentials valle have, i really belive his responde is just a generic one to any type of change on a video game. A sort of "Git gud".
Like i said in another video, neutral is a dying breed on fighting games. Flashines and Super move animation will prevail despite any direct impact on gameplay and maybe, just maybe, that's the way things will be from now on.
Yes This. Exactly what I said. It’s the fundamentals of Neutral being removed, not defence.
And as the Neutral dies, so does my interest in the games.
Such is my reward for 20+ years of patronage. They just don't want my money anymore, because they're getting more from the masses who can't appreciate Neutral and defense due to having an average attention span comparable to that of a jellyfish.
People need to differentiate between hard to play vs hard to win. Legacy games are like chess, the skill ceiling are higher and the top players consistently wins because its very hard to close the skill gap between players. Modern games on the other hand are like rock scissors paper, its easy to play and everyone can teach the same skill level because the ceiling is low and this almost everyone you play has very little skill gap, thus, harder to win consistently.
There is a reason why more people play rock scissors paper than there are that play chess. Developers used to design and develop games that is challenging for players, not they just develop games that are easy for everyone one to get in so they can sell more.
I'm curious, what's your source on the player count of rock, paper, scissors?
@@GenderNeutch Is that a serious question? Fyi it's an analogy, and obviously there are more people knowing how to play rock scissors paper than chess. And even someone who learns RCP for the first time can win games against someone who has been playing for years. For chess it's basically impossible for a beginner to beat a veteran player.
I know it's exaggerated, but legacy Vs modern games are somewhat similar to that to a lesser extent. That's the point I was making.
I get that point regarding new and veteran players, makes sense when comparing skill level and barriers of entry in chess vs RPS. I'm not sure how much it has to do with legacy skill. I think veteran players have an advantage because they played and practiced a lot, and not as much because they played different iterations of chess and have knowledge which carries over to what chess looks like now.
@@GenderNeutch Yes they do have the advantage, but because the skill ceiling is lower, that advantage doesn't amount to much. A top chess player can scale down to play checkers with advantage but he won't dominate like he does in chess because the skill gap between checker players are smaller than chess. This is what i meant by the difference between hard to play vs hard to win. Its harder to play chess but its harder to win in checkers and RCP.
If you need specific examples of legacy skills and skill ceilings, just take a look at SF4. There are lesser jump frames, meaning there is also lesser time to react to a jump. Compared to SF5, there are literally one button normals that juggle on hit and you can follow up for a big combo. In SF6 the jump frames are longer and almost all characters have a consistent one button anti air. Also, in SF4, lights are plus on block, this is why almost no one mash buttons on block. Not even on wake up because the there is no back roll and the wake up timing is always the same, this consistency means there is no randomness. Scrubby moves like mashing buttons in SF4 is suicidal at moderate to high level play. In SF5, you have literally 2 different wakeup options with 2 different wakeup timings and its only 5 frames apart. That means its very hard to consistently meaty even if you score a knockdown and oki. Randomizing your wakeup and spamming jab is actually a legit strat in SF5. In SF6 they finally remove that randomness by making both quick rise and back roll have the same timing, however, because of things like perfect parry, scoring an oki doesn't mean its always your turn because of things like wakeup perfect parry, even your frame traps and block strings isn't safe to perfect parry. There is alot of guessing and reads involved in SF6.
Don't get me wrong, SF4 is broken in many ways, its highly unbalanced but the core game is still based on fundamental skills like reaction and execution. Ever since SF5, execution in SF series has been too easy with the tightest combo being only 3f. Not to mention in SF6, you can skip neutral and skip hit confirms with drive rush and drive rush cancel. The need for reactional plays like footsie spacing, whiff punish and hit confirms are lesser. And knowledge wise, the option select again, is broken but it sets the average and top players apart because its to in depth and matchup dependent. In SF5 and 6 you are almost playing the same game plan, setups and combos against all characters because there is little depth in the character's movesets. There is a similar answer to every and every move in the game because of the universal mechanics like drive parry and drive impact. Yes its balance, but its also simple and straight forward, thus easy to play. In SF4 for example, you had to option select your meaty on opponent's wakup with 2.lk(+2lp os tech)> 2lp(+2hk os sweep) to deal with wakeup throw or backdash.
Barrier of entry literally translate to the difficulty of the game and legacy skills. There is literally nothing skills wise that modern games like SF6 has that SF4 doesn't or have it harder. Execution, reaction, knowledge and data, mixups and mind games etc. SF4 has it all and has it harder.
Honestly I think that new mainline titles should start scrubby but as the game ages thats when they pepper in patches aimed toward raising the skill ceiling.
Gogo time for you guys to do some Tekken 8!
What an underrated channel
I loved when I could watch fightning games & be impressed that they could continuously to this hard combo or specific weight combos, now every child that picks up a controller can do 99% of combos. It makes watching modern day FGS boring imo
BACK IN MY DAY WE HAD TO WORK FOR IT
I used to love watching xians Gen rip Gen the goat
As a causal fighter game player I love the changes I think people where born in the social media area have unrealistic expectations on how a fighting game should play instead figuring out the puzzle of what you are struggling with.
That’s what makes fight game games unique.
2:37 LMAAAAAAAOOOOO
how did mike call xian washed up
So what xian said is, fundamentals from old games aren't transferred properly to new games and viceversa. As an old player, I think he's right to a certain extent because fundamentals are fundamentals, yet people that come from new games take a lot more time to adapt in an old game. Old players adapt a bit faster to new games, but i understand knee's frustration.
Xian is a wise man!
i like the episode when you react to and make fun of FGC
Well said Xian
Preach
i'm back to t7. idk man...
Feng wei still eating good
ahha. I have a much different opinion. I wanted a Street Fighter game (last SF was the Alpha series) & i was very much put off by SF4. I disliked that the screen had moved closer than the other SF games & emphasized the ground game. We played a bit of SF4 with our friends (trying to check the new character Gouken) & using the charge attacks but eventually we dropped it.
I have watched SF6 videos but i dont like the colors (gameplay doesnt amaze me as well) and in the meantime i have played other fighting game franchises which i liked more. Recently i picked up SF5 only because of the many characters, including many i havent really played even though i know their style. I know SF5 wont amaze me (because i didnt buy it back then).
About the last question. delete and go to t7 on pc. Video Games are about to have fun and when a developer takes out everything that made it fun to begin with and add stuff no one asked for to cather to.....who? its better to just stick to the game you had fun with and skip the new title. Mike, you did the same with SfV and its the healthiest way to deal with these situations. These games will not change to your liking..never did,never will so it makes no sense to stick to it for years in the hope of it becoming better. That never happened.
This was entertaining lol
Aris would say it's simple.... 'They're Tekken fans' 🤣