48:58 in one of my campaigns the players saved a little kid from a bunch of big spiders in a cave - that was their first adventure. 4 real life years later (about 8 months in-game) they were passing through that village again, and the kids were playing pretend dressed AS THE PLAYER CHARACTERS, being big damn heroes and waving stick swords. The players lost their god damn minds, it was one of our best sessions ever.
I think the Player's Handbook should be the one-stop-shop for how to start playing dnd and include beginner instructions for Players and DMs alike, including a starter dungeon and some basic monster stat blocks. The Game Master's Guide should be the next level up, getting GMs from novice level and giving them advanced tools and resources on how to master the game - both mechanically and socially.
I'm running Curse of Strahd right now, which happens in a Demi-Plane, cut off from the Prime Material, mainly populated by Soulless Husks... So instead of trying to have a "living world" where things happen around the PCs, I draw attention to the Uncanniness of the world *NOT* being "living"... Events go into hibernation for *decades* waiting for [Plot Point] to happen, and Husks will be stuck in a loop before they continue their plots... Dunno how it comes across to my players necessarily, but it amuses me, if nothing else...
Arguably bastions play a huge role in Lord of Rings in terms of allied NPC bastions providing aid, respite, or a source of adventure. Rivendell provided some downtime resting, Helm’s Deep was a defense of an allied bastion which then provided an army to defend another bastion, Minas Tirith. While no one in the Fellowship owned a bastion, they benefited from their allies’ bastions.
In one of my sessions a character fell over the cliff and the dm said, "roll percentile dice, if you 5% you survive. Do you want high or low?". Our dm always let us choose so we don't have to roll 01-05. We could choose high so if we rolled 95-00 we did it. Well the player chose low and rolled 02. Everyone at the table started yelling and celebrating. It was a great moment.
Moved to Bluesky. Much better environment. More encouraging engagement. Would love to see Bob World Builder there. Worth the effort. Also kuods to Shawn for being on the #2 and #3 podcasts.
The Blades in the Dark expansion Deep Cuts makes it so all rolls are about avoiding a Threat involved in your action. So you'll always cross the gap, but you might scuff your knees and take damage. Only when its dramatically interesting is the threat just failing itself.
Lot's of cool stuff in this episode. I actually ran Out of the Abyss as my second campaign, and that took 5 years- a tough campaign to run up to lvl 20 with all those NPCs and retainers. The Bastion and living world talk was very interesting. I'm now running the Alexandrian Remix of Waterdeep Dragonheist. That version accomplishes the "bad guy chess game" via faction lieutenants and their combat groups, with the freedom to move them around and react to the players. Each group is also equipped with a handout or bit of info they can give that advances the story by giving the party a clue to a hideout or faction headquarters. I also found the way the Dungeons of Drakkenheim module did their factions fascinating. They way they lay out schemes the factions take as the party gets on their nerves in incremental order is cool. It's almost like a negative renown system, and offers a little more to the DM than throwing a combat encounter at the party if they slight a faction.
"how to run your game" vs "how to be angry at certain people" Personally the Eldritch Lorecast has been great for TTRPG news for me. But its great to hear this panel discussion on solving problems, with everyone having differing views on the matter. Please keep this up.
Shawn has inspired me to run a Groundhog Day one-shot. The players must figure out how to not let a single villager die that day. It resets until they succeed.
Further to the discussion on Bob's take of "living world". Something I did was I recorded a monologue at a significant point in the campaign (start of a three day holy festival) that just briefly covered what the factions they'd interacted with (and one they hadn't yet) were up to at this critical point in time. I bolted this onto the end of an actual play episode, but could easily just have sent it to them. I borrowed the idea from Aabria during the first run of EXU whre we got these snippets at the end of an episode as to the impact the decisions the party had taken were having, and how it might impact them down the line.
There is design space for the pre-5th level neo bastion, and Ben `s suggestion of non- facility benefits is spot on. So many small businesses followed 5he work/ retail space be8ng on the ground floor with the proprietors living space above it, and since most small businesses barely squeak by, it can be roleplayed as " yes, you have an antique shop, but you're putting more money into it than you're getting benefit from it" - you can also play it as buying and flipping a house until you hit 5th level!
Especially for characters with Tool Proficiencies, focusing on the apprentice laborer angle gives them access to resources for crafting, NPC training options, and physical space to rest in. It’s also a nice tie-in for certain backgrounds that focus on artisan crafters.
@mactireliath2356 definitely! Nice catch. And Grim Hollow has the profession system, which would be nice to integrate with Bastions, especially in the lower levels. Googles and Apples garages are iconic as a pre-bastion example!
In my current spell jammer campaign, i let each of my players pick a level 5 Bastian feature on the ship. I had to retool the barracks into "crew quarters" but aside from that it's worked pretty well. I think when they want more than 1 facility each they'll need an actual home base though. This boat is getting crowded
D&D mascot has to be a Beholder. It would be hilarious to see the eye stalks bobbing around. Also, Bob needs to green screen a forest behind him. He just doesn't look the same indoors.
29:20 - that's exactly what I was thinking. That gets over the weirdness of just suddenly having a new thing 'unlock'. Or the alternative that I would probably enjoy as a player and gm, would be if around level 4/5, there was a short side adventure that had the party either find, or be tasked to clear some abandoned space - kind of reminds me of that (forgive me) Skyrim quest, where a wing of the Blue Palace is thought to be haunted. But once the issue is dealt with, the space is up for grabs.
While I love Bob's take on many things, I have to part with him on a couple of his takes regarding the DMG. Ben is spot on regarding optional elements in the DMG that the DM should have the primary discretion whether or not to include in the game becoming player expectations in the PHB. The DMG also includes information about encounters, magic items, and so forth that I don't want my players to regularly have constant access. These should be special, fun surprises in the game, and they should be subject to whatever sorts of modifications I as a DM want to make without the players reacting "but the book says *this!*" There is less of a risk of violating player expectations if they are far less likely to actually own the book with the options in the first place. For example, regarding the bastion section: While it would certainly be helpful to include the specifics regarding what bastion facilities do and how to choose them in a player-facing document, the DMG also includes bastion encounters with pretty specific descriptions about the kinds of things that can happen during bastion turns that I don't want my players reading about and metagaming in advance. By the way, Deekin, the kobold bard from the OG Neverwinter Nights video game DLCs would be a fun mascot for D&D!
Does that mean you never want your players to DM? Else the get access to the "secret knowledge"? That seems bonkers to me. Secrets and surprises should be in the adventure, not the core source books.
I think it’s important to set expectations from Session Zero as to how everyone treats written content vs. campaign and group-specific content. I know if I have players who appreciate surprise as a kind of immersion in the game, then they will trust me enough to make the changes I need to make sure everyone is having a good time. If there are “rules lawyer” players or meta gamers, it’s better for everyone involved if they find a DM who will give them the experience they want. And that will have to be another storyteller entirely, 😅
@@danrimo826 Never said that, never implied that, classic straw man fallacy. If someone else wants to DM, I will happily buy them a copy. I just know that, for myself as a player as well as my players, spoilers are no fun, and metagaming less so. The bastion turn encounters could be a lot of fun for my party as we progress, but not if they spent a bunch of time reading all about them in advance.
@@stephenklien Not trolling - honest question here. Does that mean that if all your players were also DMs then the experience would be less because they already know encounter design, magic items etc..? I see a lot of DM vs Player stuff out there in terms of "players should not know this" and I find it really strange. Spoilers should be in the adventure yes? Not in the core game mechanics? It is my opinion that everything you need to DM a game should be in the player handbook because the DM is a player too. Plus it could encourage more players to take up DMing which is a win for everybody.
I'm still waiting for someone (actually multiple people, not going to name names) to do an adventure and explain what they are thinking as they create the adventure & what they are thinking as they run the adventure. You know, putting it all together from start to finish with examples. Not just talking about what you should do or what they would do but actually showing it in detail with explanations & examples. Great show, glad you invited Bob world builder. Keep up the great work. Yes, I totally agree, the starter set must be great! I can't wait for it. They have a year to make it, so it better be amazing. @10:40 yes 10 pages front & back. So do we call that 10 papers because you use the front and back of the paper but the pages are numbered 1 on the front, 2 on the back of that same sheet, etc. exactly what is the right phrasing for that? Truth comes out @22:16. Castle with flying monkeys.... witch? (this is a joke please do not be offended. You saying that made me think of the witch in Wizard of Oz, spoilers everyone.) @24:10 don't get me started on gold cost as a wizard. It is beyond silly all the things that make being a wizard difficult compared to all the other classes. I mean game rules and restrictions. As the editions increase the difficulty has decreased some, but it is not the same as any other class. If you are attacked in your Bastion, do you get lair actions? If you attack monsters where they live they get lair actions. Seems only fair if your Bastion, aka lair, is attacked you would get a Bastion action.
RE: Bastions. I once ran a nice, tight, little adventure series that took a group to level 5 and they decided to buy a tavern at the end. As "Heroes of the Realm", it makes a lot of sense if you play out the tiers as intended. I'd also love to run a bastion as a sort of caravan. Also regarding its location in the Dungeon Master's Guide, if my experience of downtime activities is anything to go by, players are never going to fully engage with bastions. They should have been in the PHB.
25:58 Agreed with this comment- wish the DMG talked more about how to incorporate a bastion into a campaign and how to adjust the timeflow and pacing of your game to account for how long bastion turns take to play out.
Yeah, feats and multiclassing getting assumed to be in every game because it's in the PHB definitely happens. Watching the podcast is very informative as someone who is still on "I'm not giving WotC more money and I don't need 5e.24".
1:02:44 Dale, I regret to inform you that the word for "tweet" on Bsky is "skeet". But Bob and Ben are right, there's been a huge influx of TTRPG folks on Bsky recently. And it's a MUCH more pleasant experience than Twitter, generally good vibes, interesting discussions, very little ridiculous drama, and trolls get nuked instantly.
Yup, skeet, reskeet, quoteskeet, subskeet... And yes, everyone reacts that way when they find out, but A - it's a portmanteau of 'sky' and 'tweet' and B - bluesky embraces its inner twelve year old more than say Mastodon, and it's funny. Not VERY funny, but a tiny little bit funny. Especially because the CEO got mad when 'skeet' won the poll for what skeets should be called So yeah, it's 'skeet' and that's gonna feel weird for about a month, then it will become just a word you use, and then someone new will show up and say, "OMG we can't call it skeet you guys" and you'll giggle and in a month they'll be using it like it's just a word, and then someone new will show up and they'll giggle... It's the circle of life on bsky And yeah the vibes are so much better than Twitter, and the block-the-trolls ethos keeps them defanged.
I have been running bastions since they appeared in the playtest material. They are very much in the background unless the DM drives some narrative with them. Power wise they don't offer much problem, but eventually (especially at lvl 9) they start to be more meaningful for the players. They are great for chill sessions when you might not have prepped as much, similar to those "downtime" sessions we all occasionally have. The new tracker sheets help the players with their roleplay as well, a great addition to the DMG.
WIth the discussion of what book Bastions should have been in, I think people forget about the feature that you get when using D&D Beyond that if you have a subscription to The Master Tier you can share unlocked content with the players in your campaign. So, while the subscription is an additional expense for the DM (US$5 per month), it means that most players in games with DMs that use D&D Beyond who also want to allow Bastions as an option in their game, will have access to the rules without needing to purchase the DMG.
I've also been thinking about moving bastions. Specifically ships. The desire for pirate campaign (or Firefly style airship ones) is a big one, and having a shared unified bastion that is the parties ship would be so cool.
The random Tuesday event that provoked the latest mass migration from Xitter was the announcement that they were dropping the block feature. It was the last straw for the few remaining stragglers.
Bob's example for the "living world" section of the podcast....I wonder if you could even take it a step further and have the PCs playing as characters they don't even know yet or haven't even met yet from other factions, and therefore are not sure necessarily whether these characters are "good or evil". I think this would work best in early-mid campaign when the PCs hadn't met a ton of other people/factions yet, but could work somewhat later on as well. And I think could add greatly to the whole "who are actually the bad guys of this campaign?". Your PCs might even side with some of the ideas that the "evil" factions have not knowing them, and could move the campaign in some fun, unique ways and make for some really cool roleplay and moral dilemmas amongst everyone.
Many times my players find out they actually helped the "bad guys". They may even see this later on in another campaign if they are in the same region of the world. My bad guys tend to be more neutral in appearance until you see what they are trying to do effects others around them. I don't like the typical villains that are obviously deranged.
Everyone of my sessions starts with a cutscene of of what the BBEG / Major NPC is doing. My players get so scared when the session intro starts with a beloved NPC.
My way of creating a living world was to create a news sheet as a player handout that tells the stories going on in the world away from the PC action. The news sheet contains 4-6 hooks (stories) to pique the characters interest and the stories for the hooks they don’t bite are updated for the next news sheet.
On the topic of avoiding feelbad moments: Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 4th edition(by Cubicle7) has both a "dark whispers" system, where the DM can offer the players a reroll, but they gain a point of "corruption" for each one they take. Corruption is hard to remove (though usually removed through their character taking on a quest, pilgrimage, or community service and is very bad if you get much of it, but does nothing if you only have a little. They also have a system of metacurrency where each character has "fate points" that can be spent mainly to take any situation where a character would die and make it "your character disappears from this scene, but comes back later, alive". Each character generally starts with 3 fate points (or 1 if you are an elf), and generally you do not get them back. When you are out of fate points the game encourages the DM to start setting up situations that fit the prophesised deaths of that character.
My fix for bastions at low level is to introduce a level 0 bastion. You have a place to stay but it doesn't offer anything more than a roof over your head.
I do this several times a campaign in one shots where the players play new characters that have a goal or event happen and later see how that effects the game.
re: bastions. It seemed weird that this was not in the PHB, optional or not. I think the history of the game does weigh on Wotc, just the tradition of the three books of the core. Just publishing for utility, you might end up with a large PHB, and the DMG might be s thinner book, or even a series of guides such as Kobold Press has published. I think WotC is not ready to rock that boat, the idea of the 3 hardcover core books is something I don't think they consider changing.
Bastion/Stronghold/Gang is very fun mechanic in TTRPG which adds another dimension into the game. Especially gangs in Blades in the Dark - it's main "character" of the game, even more improtant than individual members. Bastion rules (from what I hear, I don't know, I wouldn't buy Hasbro/WotC products) more or less resemble Forbidden Lands Stronghold Fobidden Lands Stronghold is important mechanic of the game which gives cool buffs for PCs, but the rules are located in Player's Handbook. So, the only reason that I see in locating Bastions in DMG is to sell more DMG.
I remember a few years ago, I think on Reddit, someone slapped googly eyes on the dragon ampersand from the 5E D&D logo and called it Andy the D&D Ampersand. U still like that. I think to Bob's point about the level requirement for Bastions versus having a "home base" at an earlier level, I think there's a clear distinction between *"thing that has mechanical implications"* and *"thing that has narrative implications only"*, which isn't really that hard to parse... for veteran players and DMs which brings us back to the question from earlier in the episode: Is this DMG for new DMs or experienced ones? Should it be for the new DMs or experienced ones?
Do we think WotC actually thoroughly playtested how Bastions work out in play though? Do they "work/deliver" for the expectation of "cool a home base" idea?
On the topic of weather something should be in the phb vs the dmg, i was really perplexed by having custom backgrounds in the DMG. Backgrounds no longer have those game breaking features, so it seemed weird to not have the straight forwars ruleset for customising not available to players. Also, infind the new backgrounds limits certain classes to backgrounds. Most monks will be sailors, because tavern brawler is very good for them.
Re: the Living World My campaign is based on Newsies the musical and to show the living world, my characters every time in town want to read the newspaper or the times and that's how they get treated to the local and faraway happenings of the world
I'm still a bit torn, but after thinking about it a while, I like Bastions in the DMG. I think the only things that should be in the PHB are the bare essentials of what you need to be a good player. When you start adding all these optional things it's just more for players (and new DMs) to get distracted by. I mostly run the game for new players, and what I want more than anything is for them to focus on how to run their own character well. Everything else is secondary. If you're going to have multiple books, I think the DMG should be the sort of Advanced D&D book. The expanded and alternative rules, and things best kept secret from players. The PHB should focus on the bare essentials so people aren't trying to run before they can crawl. Now, you could argue that's what the starter sets are for, but that's a whole other tangent...
I think it would have made less sense to have bastions in PHB instead of DMG. The guide is there to help DMs structure and have a good measure of what would be acceptable and what could be too much for the players' level and wealth. There shouldn't be an expectation that all campaigns will have bastions
Getting a Bastion at level 2 is probably throwing too much at new players. Getting a base of operations with employees before getting a subclass seems a bit much. Level 5 represents the start of Tier 2, so it makes sense to introduce Bastions at that point.
Bastions does straddle that line on where it should be. Though you can say the same about magic items. Players may not be able to outright purchase the magic item they want, its still 90% player facing, so why not put it in the PHB. To answer that, just look at 4E. It included magic items because the math of having those items were baked into the game, just like PF2. Because they were in the PHB, it was assumed they were available without buy-in from the DM. Bastions are such a particular thing. It's believable to say a Wizard reaches 5th level, and suddenly has access to more powerful magic, but its less so to say that regardless of game pacing, world build, or the characters current status in that world, they suddenly have a house somewhere. It's something that the DM needs to seed in and help set up, even if its for the player benefit. Everyone suddenly getting their own Batcave doesn't make much sense unless the DM works that into the world and tale they are spinning.
@45:30 I would love to see how to do this in a video as well. Excellent idea but I need more information to learn how to do that in my game. Do you create videos? Sorry Shawn but I don't know what you do besides this podcast.
Bob, what headset is that? Does it have a built-in microphone? Do you recommend it? @36:12 Bob, you need to do a video about this. I mean I know I would love to see this happening, so I have better understanding of how to do it in my own game. Please tell me you are going to do this video.
I don't get why there would be a level restriction for Bastions at all. Is there a real estate guild out there checking people's level before they can build additions to their house? It makes no sense. It should be gold, or on some kind of faction based track, or something that limits the resource in the fiction, not an artificial mechanic. On the world moving around you. I've used Dael's method--especially with NPC's (give them a challenge or task, and then have them accomplish it, especially with PC help and have it alter the world or grant a service that didn't previously exist) and the version where you just cut away to other stuff. Seasonal changes and things can be great too. (I ran Dragon Heist with all factions going at once, resulting in a show down between every faction in a massive 5 way brawl with over 60 characters for me to run...it was awesome, my players did incredible and when the factions tried to negotiate and said they would "spare their lives" they all somehow burst into laughter, _in character!_ It was a magical DnD moment.) I tend to go overboard and keep track of a lot of NPC minutia, but my NPC's are one of my strongest tools in my DM style, my players always buy in to the world through another person (perhaps too many, tbh, it can slow things down at times). To Ben's point about Dark fantasy, I think it shares this trait with noir storytelling. You are a protagonist, but the world has bigger players than you, and you are trying to navigate the space between them and perhaps do some good in a dark tale, without being crushed by these greater forces. What _makes_ you heroic, is your willingness to try, even though you are way out of your depth. But as Shawn says, you have to be considerate with how you do this, and make sure your tone matches the game you're running. All about failing forwards, or succeeding at a cost. You fall off the cliff, now you're not a viable target for attacks, but if no one helps you back up you are going to die! You break out of prison, and you barely succeed, or slightly fail, the plan still goes off but someone is injured, not just damaged, but has a lasting condition. Same thing with the spike trap, you survive, but your armour is ruined etc. Serious stakes, serious cost, but not to the point the story just ends, or at least not always. And _always_ keep your *players* (though not always their characters) on the same page when it comes to high stakes moments. It livens the game, and does a ton of work preventing feelings of unfairness.
Why would my players buy a second book when I can just give them the information? If I'm using D&D Beyond I can share the book. If I am at the table I can hand them the book. They (WoTC) are already smart enough most people will just copy those pages via phone or scan them. The whole "it is a greedy corporation move" is the most absurd argument I have seen. If I was going to do a greedy move, I would have sold it as part of supplement with some other mediocre stuff. The Bastions aren't that powerful. I find the benefits of them somewhat trivial. What I am shocked about is that you 4 are in a podcast about Bastions and no one has read all the Bastion rules. I use a living world for Greyhawk. My group of players have been in Oerth (Greyhawk) for the last 7 real life years. Each campaign effects what is going on in the world and a keep an ongoing timeline. We are in the year 624 CY. What this does is lets the players make a difference in the world they are playing in and shows their actions have consequences in the world as a whole. But if they look at the timeline and only see what they have done then that shows a static world in which they really don't affect anything in the grand scheme of the world. It is my wife and kids playing. Hopefully they will pick up the mantle later on. I keep all my notes and stuff for them to use.
So happy to be on the #3 number 1 rpg podcast in all the realms!
And it was great to see Bob THE World Builder join the bastion of Ghostfire. Hope it’s not the last.
Great show. 🖖
@@Gaiawolf I definitely agree, Bob is such a good fit with the standard crew, I'd love to see him guest again.
💯 all of the above!
Bob has become the Roy Kent of TTRPG podcasts... "Here's here! He's there! He's every- F'N-where!"
The Eldritch LoreCast is #1 tabletop podcast in my apartment.
Bastions: Adding "Being able to afford a home" to the wish-fulfillment D&D provides Millennials and Zoomers. 😓
*listens to Metallica: Sad but True
Along with getting a full rest, learning multiple languages, and traveling. 😅
Immediate response to the title image: YAY BOB !!!
Ready to listen now
48:58 in one of my campaigns the players saved a little kid from a bunch of big spiders in a cave - that was their first adventure. 4 real life years later (about 8 months in-game) they were passing through that village again, and the kids were playing pretend dressed AS THE PLAYER CHARACTERS, being big damn heroes and waving stick swords. The players lost their god damn minds, it was one of our best sessions ever.
There is no more perilous journey in all the realms than that of Dael's emotions whenever Ben attempts a segue.
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. While normally just listening, i rewind and watch her reaction now
Gosh I love Bob! Amazing attitude about him. Great dude.
Great to see you guys getting Bob World Builder in the discussion.
Grim Bastions, incoming! Haunted NPC’s, Grim Omens, Ritual Spaces, Monster building Laboratories…so many options
ITS BOB HI BOB
I love the journey you can see on everyone's faces when Ben tortures a segue into the next question. 😂
as a newer DM, I'm loving the new guide. I also love that you folks keep making content for people like me and my players, so thank you!
Nice to see @bobworldbuilder jumping in. Keeping the total hair at a constant. Also. Thanks for answering my question.!
Love seeing Bob on the show. Great stuff as always. The eldrich lorecast is number 1 in my book.
My dude Bob representing Zelda.
🔺
🔺🔺
A slicy Clippy familiar would be wild.
Let's go! Great to see Bob, and let's get some more OSR / Dungeon Crawl Classics up in here!
YES! Perfect thing to listen too while organizing my miniatures and game books
Draw Steel's mascot could be a chibi Matt Colville
Nah, just his animated beard
I love Dael's "not answer" to Ben's "not question". Y'all working in perfect synergy today! :)
I think the Player's Handbook should be the one-stop-shop for how to start playing dnd and include beginner instructions for Players and DMs alike, including a starter dungeon and some basic monster stat blocks.
The Game Master's Guide should be the next level up, getting GMs from novice level and giving them advanced tools and resources on how to master the game - both mechanically and socially.
100%.
I'm running Curse of Strahd right now, which happens in a Demi-Plane, cut off from the Prime Material, mainly populated by Soulless Husks... So instead of trying to have a "living world" where things happen around the PCs, I draw attention to the Uncanniness of the world *NOT* being "living"...
Events go into hibernation for *decades* waiting for [Plot Point] to happen, and Husks will be stuck in a loop before they continue their plots...
Dunno how it comes across to my players necessarily, but it amuses me, if nothing else...
Arguably bastions play a huge role in Lord of Rings in terms of allied NPC bastions providing aid, respite, or a source of adventure. Rivendell provided some downtime resting, Helm’s Deep was a defense of an allied bastion which then provided an army to defend another bastion, Minas Tirith.
While no one in the Fellowship owned a bastion, they benefited from their allies’ bastions.
In one of my sessions a character fell over the cliff and the dm said, "roll percentile dice, if you 5% you survive. Do you want high or low?". Our dm always let us choose so we don't have to roll 01-05. We could choose high so if we rolled 95-00 we did it. Well the player chose low and rolled 02. Everyone at the table started yelling and celebrating. It was a great moment.
Moved to Bluesky. Much better environment. More encouraging engagement. Would love to see Bob World Builder there. Worth the effort. Also kuods to Shawn for being on the #2 and #3 podcasts.
The Blades in the Dark expansion Deep Cuts makes it so all rolls are about avoiding a Threat involved in your action. So you'll always cross the gap, but you might scuff your knees and take damage. Only when its dramatically interesting is the threat just failing itself.
Lot's of cool stuff in this episode. I actually ran Out of the Abyss as my second campaign, and that took 5 years- a tough campaign to run up to lvl 20 with all those NPCs and retainers.
The Bastion and living world talk was very interesting. I'm now running the Alexandrian Remix of Waterdeep Dragonheist. That version accomplishes the "bad guy chess game" via faction lieutenants and their combat groups, with the freedom to move them around and react to the players. Each group is also equipped with a handout or bit of info they can give that advances the story by giving the party a clue to a hideout or faction headquarters.
I also found the way the Dungeons of Drakkenheim module did their factions fascinating. They way they lay out schemes the factions take as the party gets on their nerves in incremental order is cool. It's almost like a negative renown system, and offers a little more to the DM than throwing a combat encounter at the party if they slight a faction.
"how to run your game" vs "how to be angry at certain people"
Personally the Eldritch Lorecast has been great for TTRPG news for me. But its great to hear this panel discussion on solving problems, with everyone having differing views on the matter. Please keep this up.
Shawn has inspired me to run a Groundhog Day one-shot. The players must figure out how to not let a single villager die that day. It resets until they succeed.
Great Pod...Bob needs to be on more often too!
Further to the discussion on Bob's take of "living world". Something I did was I recorded a monologue at a significant point in the campaign (start of a three day holy festival) that just briefly covered what the factions they'd interacted with (and one they hadn't yet) were up to at this critical point in time. I bolted this onto the end of an actual play episode, but could easily just have sent it to them. I borrowed the idea from Aabria during the first run of EXU whre we got these snippets at the end of an episode as to the impact the decisions the party had taken were having, and how it might impact them down the line.
There is design space for the pre-5th level neo bastion, and Ben `s suggestion of non- facility benefits is spot on. So many small businesses followed 5he work/ retail space be8ng on the ground floor with the proprietors living space above it, and since most small businesses barely squeak by, it can be roleplayed as " yes, you have an antique shop, but you're putting more money into it than you're getting benefit from it" - you can also play it as buying and flipping a house until you hit 5th level!
Especially for characters with Tool Proficiencies, focusing on the apprentice laborer angle gives them access to resources for crafting, NPC training options, and physical space to rest in. It’s also a nice tie-in for certain backgrounds that focus on artisan crafters.
@mactireliath2356 definitely! Nice catch. And Grim Hollow has the profession system, which would be nice to integrate with Bastions, especially in the lower levels. Googles and Apples garages are iconic as a pre-bastion example!
In my current spell jammer campaign, i let each of my players pick a level 5 Bastian feature on the ship. I had to retool the barracks into "crew quarters" but aside from that it's worked pretty well. I think when they want more than 1 facility each they'll need an actual home base though. This boat is getting crowded
Dungeon Court is the best non actualplay dnd podcast I've ever heard
I think Ben might find Teos‘ videos on Bastions interesting (e.g. with regards to power levels)…
D&D mascot has to be a Beholder. It would be hilarious to see the eye stalks bobbing around.
Also, Bob needs to green screen a forest behind him. He just doesn't look the same indoors.
29:20 - that's exactly what I was thinking. That gets over the weirdness of just suddenly having a new thing 'unlock'.
Or the alternative that I would probably enjoy as a player and gm, would be if around level 4/5, there was a short side adventure that had the party either find, or be tasked to clear some abandoned space - kind of reminds me of that (forgive me) Skyrim quest, where a wing of the Blue Palace is thought to be haunted.
But once the issue is dealt with, the space is up for grabs.
While I love Bob's take on many things, I have to part with him on a couple of his takes regarding the DMG. Ben is spot on regarding optional elements in the DMG that the DM should have the primary discretion whether or not to include in the game becoming player expectations in the PHB.
The DMG also includes information about encounters, magic items, and so forth that I don't want my players to regularly have constant access. These should be special, fun surprises in the game, and they should be subject to whatever sorts of modifications I as a DM want to make without the players reacting "but the book says *this!*" There is less of a risk of violating player expectations if they are far less likely to actually own the book with the options in the first place.
For example, regarding the bastion section: While it would certainly be helpful to include the specifics regarding what bastion facilities do and how to choose them in a player-facing document, the DMG also includes bastion encounters with pretty specific descriptions about the kinds of things that can happen during bastion turns that I don't want my players reading about and metagaming in advance.
By the way, Deekin, the kobold bard from the OG Neverwinter Nights video game DLCs would be a fun mascot for D&D!
Does that mean you never want your players to DM? Else the get access to the "secret knowledge"? That seems bonkers to me. Secrets and surprises should be in the adventure, not the core source books.
I think it’s important to set expectations from Session Zero as to how everyone treats written content vs. campaign and group-specific content. I know if I have players who appreciate surprise as a kind of immersion in the game, then they will trust me enough to make the changes I need to make sure everyone is having a good time. If there are “rules lawyer” players or meta gamers, it’s better for everyone involved if they find a DM who will give them the experience they want. And that will have to be another storyteller entirely, 😅
@@danrimo826 Never said that, never implied that, classic straw man fallacy. If someone else wants to DM, I will happily buy them a copy. I just know that, for myself as a player as well as my players, spoilers are no fun, and metagaming less so. The bastion turn encounters could be a lot of fun for my party as we progress, but not if they spent a bunch of time reading all about them in advance.
@@stephenklien Not trolling - honest question here. Does that mean that if all your players were also DMs then the experience would be less because they already know encounter design, magic items etc..? I see a lot of DM vs Player stuff out there in terms of "players should not know this" and I find it really strange. Spoilers should be in the adventure yes? Not in the core game mechanics? It is my opinion that everything you need to DM a game should be in the player handbook because the DM is a player too. Plus it could encourage more players to take up DMing which is a win for everybody.
I'm still waiting for someone (actually multiple people, not going to name names) to do an adventure and explain what they are thinking as they create the adventure & what they are thinking as they run the adventure. You know, putting it all together from start to finish with examples. Not just talking about what you should do or what they would do but actually showing it in detail with explanations & examples.
Great show, glad you invited Bob world builder. Keep up the great work.
Yes, I totally agree, the starter set must be great! I can't wait for it. They have a year to make it, so it better be amazing.
@10:40 yes 10 pages front & back. So do we call that 10 papers because you use the front and back of the paper but the pages are numbered 1 on the front, 2 on the back of that same sheet, etc. exactly what is the right phrasing for that?
Truth comes out @22:16. Castle with flying monkeys.... witch? (this is a joke please do not be offended. You saying that made me think of the witch in Wizard of Oz, spoilers everyone.)
@24:10 don't get me started on gold cost as a wizard. It is beyond silly all the things that make being a wizard difficult compared to all the other classes. I mean game rules and restrictions. As the editions increase the difficulty has decreased some, but it is not the same as any other class.
If you are attacked in your Bastion, do you get lair actions? If you attack monsters where they live they get lair actions. Seems only fair if your Bastion, aka lair, is attacked you would get a Bastion action.
RE: Bastions.
I once ran a nice, tight, little adventure series that took a group to level 5 and they decided to buy a tavern at the end. As "Heroes of the Realm", it makes a lot of sense if you play out the tiers as intended.
I'd also love to run a bastion as a sort of caravan.
Also regarding its location in the Dungeon Master's Guide, if my experience of downtime activities is anything to go by, players are never going to fully engage with bastions. They should have been in the PHB.
25:58 Agreed with this comment- wish the DMG talked more about how to incorporate a bastion into a campaign and how to adjust the timeflow and pacing of your game to account for how long bastion turns take to play out.
Yeah, feats and multiclassing getting assumed to be in every game because it's in the PHB definitely happens. Watching the podcast is very informative as someone who is still on "I'm not giving WotC more money and I don't need 5e.24".
1:02:44 Dale, I regret to inform you that the word for "tweet" on Bsky is "skeet".
But Bob and Ben are right, there's been a huge influx of TTRPG folks on Bsky recently. And it's a MUCH more pleasant experience than Twitter, generally good vibes, interesting discussions, very little ridiculous drama, and trolls get nuked instantly.
Yup, skeet, reskeet, quoteskeet, subskeet...
And yes, everyone reacts that way when they find out, but A - it's a portmanteau of 'sky' and 'tweet' and B - bluesky embraces its inner twelve year old more than say Mastodon, and it's funny. Not VERY funny, but a tiny little bit funny. Especially because the CEO got mad when 'skeet' won the poll for what skeets should be called
So yeah, it's 'skeet' and that's gonna feel weird for about a month, then it will become just a word you use, and then someone new will show up and say, "OMG we can't call it skeet you guys" and you'll giggle and in a month they'll be using it like it's just a word, and then someone new will show up and they'll giggle... It's the circle of life on bsky
And yeah the vibes are so much better than Twitter, and the block-the-trolls ethos keeps them defanged.
I have been running bastions since they appeared in the playtest material. They are very much in the background unless the DM drives some narrative with them. Power wise they don't offer much problem, but eventually (especially at lvl 9) they start to be more meaningful for the players. They are great for chill sessions when you might not have prepped as much, similar to those "downtime" sessions we all occasionally have. The new tracker sheets help the players with their roleplay as well, a great addition to the DMG.
Really puzzled there are no Bastion rules for large sailships. Would be an awesome addition to Ghosts of Saltmarsh or Spelljammer.
WIth the discussion of what book Bastions should have been in, I think people forget about the feature that you get when using D&D Beyond that if you have a subscription to The Master Tier you can share unlocked content with the players in your campaign.
So, while the subscription is an additional expense for the DM (US$5 per month), it means that most players in games with DMs that use D&D Beyond who also want to allow Bastions as an option in their game, will have access to the rules without needing to purchase the DMG.
MYSTERY MEN MENTIONED
I've also been thinking about moving bastions. Specifically ships. The desire for pirate campaign (or Firefly style airship ones) is a big one, and having a shared unified bastion that is the parties ship would be so cool.
The random Tuesday event that provoked the latest mass migration from Xitter was the announcement that they were dropping the block feature. It was the last straw for the few remaining stragglers.
Bob's example for the "living world" section of the podcast....I wonder if you could even take it a step further and have the PCs playing as characters they don't even know yet or haven't even met yet from other factions, and therefore are not sure necessarily whether these characters are "good or evil". I think this would work best in early-mid campaign when the PCs hadn't met a ton of other people/factions yet, but could work somewhat later on as well. And I think could add greatly to the whole "who are actually the bad guys of this campaign?". Your PCs might even side with some of the ideas that the "evil" factions have not knowing them, and could move the campaign in some fun, unique ways and make for some really cool roleplay and moral dilemmas amongst everyone.
Many times my players find out they actually helped the "bad guys". They may even see this later on in another campaign if they are in the same region of the world. My bad guys tend to be more neutral in appearance until you see what they are trying to do effects others around them. I don't like the typical villains that are obviously deranged.
Everyone of my sessions starts with a cutscene of of what the BBEG / Major NPC is doing. My players get so scared when the session intro starts with a beloved NPC.
if i were to make a mascot for DnD i think i'd make it a kobold adventurer with a big backpack, almost like the tears of the kingdom koroks have.
Stabby the Sword
Where are the realms? In Australia, certainly you must be the number one podcast. Chin up;
Dungeon Crawl Classics has two mascots, Shanna the Wizard and Hugh the Warrior.
Mascot for D&D? Large Luigi
My way of creating a living world was to create a news sheet as a player handout that tells the stories going on in the world away from the PC action. The news sheet contains 4-6 hooks (stories) to pique the characters interest and the stories for the hooks they don’t bite are updated for the next news sheet.
Pellet the owlbear cub is the only acceptable mascot.
(Wearing suspenders with D20s on them)
On the topic of avoiding feelbad moments: Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 4th edition(by Cubicle7) has both a "dark whispers" system, where the DM can offer the players a reroll, but they gain a point of "corruption" for each one they take. Corruption is hard to remove (though usually removed through their character taking on a quest, pilgrimage, or community service and is very bad if you get much of it, but does nothing if you only have a little.
They also have a system of metacurrency where each character has "fate points" that can be spent mainly to take any situation where a character would die and make it "your character disappears from this scene, but comes back later, alive". Each character generally starts with 3 fate points (or 1 if you are an elf), and generally you do not get them back. When you are out of fate points the game encourages the DM to start setting up situations that fit the prophesised deaths of that character.
My fix for bastions at low level is to introduce a level 0 bastion. You have a place to stay but it doesn't offer anything more than a roof over your head.
I do this several times a campaign in one shots where the players play new characters that have a goal or event happen and later see how that effects the game.
"What Would Indy Do?" T-shirts available from...
re: bastions. It seemed weird that this was not in the PHB, optional or not.
I think the history of the game does weigh on Wotc, just the tradition of the three books of the core. Just publishing for utility, you might end up with a large PHB, and the DMG might be s thinner book, or even a series of guides such as Kobold Press has published.
I think WotC is not ready to rock that boat, the idea of the 3 hardcover core books is something I don't think they consider changing.
18:02 I was saying aloud "the perfect example is feats" when you got to that exact point Ben.
Bastion/Stronghold/Gang is very fun mechanic in TTRPG which adds another dimension into the game. Especially gangs in Blades in the Dark - it's main "character" of the game, even more improtant than individual members. Bastion rules (from what I hear, I don't know, I wouldn't buy Hasbro/WotC products) more or less resemble Forbidden Lands Stronghold Fobidden Lands Stronghold is important mechanic of the game which gives cool buffs for PCs, but the rules are located in Player's Handbook. So, the only reason that I see in locating Bastions in DMG is to sell more DMG.
I remember a few years ago, I think on Reddit, someone slapped googly eyes on the dragon ampersand from the 5E D&D logo and called it Andy the D&D Ampersand. U still like that.
I think to Bob's point about the level requirement for Bastions versus having a "home base" at an earlier level, I think there's a clear distinction between *"thing that has mechanical implications"* and *"thing that has narrative implications only"*, which isn't really that hard to parse... for veteran players and DMs which brings us back to the question from earlier in the episode: Is this DMG for new DMs or experienced ones? Should it be for the new DMs or experienced ones?
Do we think WotC actually thoroughly playtested how Bastions work out in play though? Do they "work/deliver" for the expectation of "cool a home base" idea?
On the topic of weather something should be in the phb vs the dmg, i was really perplexed by having custom backgrounds in the DMG. Backgrounds no longer have those game breaking features, so it seemed weird to not have the straight forwars ruleset for customising not available to players.
Also, infind the new backgrounds limits certain classes to backgrounds. Most monks will be sailors, because tavern brawler is very good for them.
Hey Bob!
Twitter was blocked in Brazil for a good length of time, so a lot of people migrated to blue sky
... Can Bob replace James... forever? Please. I love him so much.
Re: the Living World
My campaign is based on Newsies the musical and to show the living world, my characters every time in town want to read the newspaper or the times and that's how they get treated to the local and faraway happenings of the world
I'm still a bit torn, but after thinking about it a while, I like Bastions in the DMG.
I think the only things that should be in the PHB are the bare essentials of what you need to be a good player.
When you start adding all these optional things it's just more for players (and new DMs) to get distracted by. I mostly run the game for new players, and what I want more than anything is for them to focus on how to run their own character well. Everything else is secondary. If you're going to have multiple books, I think the DMG should be the sort of Advanced D&D book. The expanded and alternative rules, and things best kept secret from players. The PHB should focus on the bare essentials so people aren't trying to run before they can crawl.
Now, you could argue that's what the starter sets are for, but that's a whole other tangent...
I think it would have made less sense to have bastions in PHB instead of DMG. The guide is there to help DMs structure and have a good measure of what would be acceptable and what could be too much for the players' level and wealth. There shouldn't be an expectation that all campaigns will have bastions
Bob is not on the video and not hating D&D5e? No way!
The Bastion systme is in the DMG becuz its OPTIONAL and as soon as you ut it in the PHB the players think its OFFICIAL and they are entitled to it.
A cuddly Colville mascot
Aragorn the White will become King then!
Getting a Bastion at level 2 is probably throwing too much at new players. Getting a base of operations with employees before getting a subclass seems a bit much.
Level 5 represents the start of Tier 2, so it makes sense to introduce Bastions at that point.
More pages equal more intimidating book equals less sales
Congrats to Shaun for being 1/2 of 2nd + 1/4 of Third...?
Bastions does straddle that line on where it should be. Though you can say the same about magic items. Players may not be able to outright purchase the magic item they want, its still 90% player facing, so why not put it in the PHB. To answer that, just look at 4E. It included magic items because the math of having those items were baked into the game, just like PF2. Because they were in the PHB, it was assumed they were available without buy-in from the DM.
Bastions are such a particular thing. It's believable to say a Wizard reaches 5th level, and suddenly has access to more powerful magic, but its less so to say that regardless of game pacing, world build, or the characters current status in that world, they suddenly have a house somewhere. It's something that the DM needs to seed in and help set up, even if its for the player benefit. Everyone suddenly getting their own Batcave doesn't make much sense unless the DM works that into the world and tale they are spinning.
@45:30 I would love to see how to do this in a video as well. Excellent idea but I need more information to learn how to do that in my game. Do you create videos? Sorry Shawn but I don't know what you do besides this podcast.
Dragon Heist Rebuilt by Dael when??
Who is the top 1 rpg podcast if not this one?
#3 podcast in all the realms! (1=Sly Flourish, 2= Mastering dungeons)
My players bought an Inn and hired a manager years ago.
So when do we get Grace World Destroyer on the podcast?
No plot armor. Death is probable.
Dael...I dont have an answer.
Bob, what headset is that? Does it have a built-in microphone? Do you recommend it?
@36:12 Bob, you need to do a video about this. I mean I know I would love to see this happening, so I have better understanding of how to do it in my own game. Please tell me you are going to do this video.
I don't get why there would be a level restriction for Bastions at all. Is there a real estate guild out there checking people's level before they can build additions to their house? It makes no sense. It should be gold, or on some kind of faction based track, or something that limits the resource in the fiction, not an artificial mechanic.
On the world moving around you. I've used Dael's method--especially with NPC's (give them a challenge or task, and then have them accomplish it, especially with PC help and have it alter the world or grant a service that didn't previously exist) and the version where you just cut away to other stuff. Seasonal changes and things can be great too. (I ran Dragon Heist with all factions going at once, resulting in a show down between every faction in a massive 5 way brawl with over 60 characters for me to run...it was awesome, my players did incredible and when the factions tried to negotiate and said they would "spare their lives" they all somehow burst into laughter, _in character!_ It was a magical DnD moment.) I tend to go overboard and keep track of a lot of NPC minutia, but my NPC's are one of my strongest tools in my DM style, my players always buy in to the world through another person (perhaps too many, tbh, it can slow things down at times).
To Ben's point about Dark fantasy, I think it shares this trait with noir storytelling. You are a protagonist, but the world has bigger players than you, and you are trying to navigate the space between them and perhaps do some good in a dark tale, without being crushed by these greater forces. What _makes_ you heroic, is your willingness to try, even though you are way out of your depth.
But as Shawn says, you have to be considerate with how you do this, and make sure your tone matches the game you're running.
All about failing forwards, or succeeding at a cost. You fall off the cliff, now you're not a viable target for attacks, but if no one helps you back up you are going to die! You break out of prison, and you barely succeed, or slightly fail, the plan still goes off but someone is injured, not just damaged, but has a lasting condition. Same thing with the spike trap, you survive, but your armour is ruined etc. Serious stakes, serious cost, but not to the point the story just ends, or at least not always.
And _always_ keep your *players* (though not always their characters) on the same page when it comes to high stakes moments. It livens the game, and does a ton of work preventing feelings of unfairness.
Why would my players buy a second book when I can just give them the information? If I'm using D&D Beyond I can share the book. If I am at the table I can hand them the book. They (WoTC) are already smart enough most people will just copy those pages via phone or scan them. The whole "it is a greedy corporation move" is the most absurd argument I have seen. If I was going to do a greedy move, I would have sold it as part of supplement with some other mediocre stuff.
The Bastions aren't that powerful. I find the benefits of them somewhat trivial. What I am shocked about is that you 4 are in a podcast about Bastions and no one has read all the Bastion rules.
I use a living world for Greyhawk. My group of players have been in Oerth (Greyhawk) for the last 7 real life years. Each campaign effects what is going on in the world and a keep an ongoing timeline. We are in the year 624 CY. What this does is lets the players make a difference in the world they are playing in and shows their actions have consequences in the world as a whole. But if they look at the timeline and only see what they have done then that shows a static world in which they really don't affect anything in the grand scheme of the world. It is my wife and kids playing. Hopefully they will pick up the mantle later on. I keep all my notes and stuff for them to use.
But then which game system is The Spleen?!?
please tell me you know about the Swords webcomic
lets-A_GO
WWIJD
NERF BASTIONS!
The D&D community is full of cynicism.
Bob World Builder guests: The Lorecast turns negative and hostile to WOTC/D&D