First Look: Headway Lithium Iron Phosphate LiFePo4 10Ah Cells
Вставка
- Опубліковано 3 жов 2024
- First look and a brief play with the Headway 10Ah LiFePo4 cells which will replace a couple of failing lead-acid gel batteries in my electric bike project.
www.eclipsebike...
Happy New Year. I've been waiting for these videos in much anticipation.
Intesting.
Now you teased me.
I wonder how it works out in the bike!
Can't wait to see it. :D
Very good information. Thanks - I have recently converted my gas riding mower to all electric. I just need a 24 volt 50 ah battery pack.
I was going to use two AGM sealed 12v 55ah batteries in series at the cost of $220.00. I would rather make the battery pack you are making in this video.
8 (17ah)🔋for $200 seems a bit expensive but I’m sure the prices will go down soon once this becomes the industry standard with Tesla leading the way announcing last month they will be switching to LifePo4 batteries. Excellent video thank you
DOD mean depth of discharge .
Good vid. DOD = "Depth of Discharge".
Note: Used 18650 laptop batteries are less expensive & they hold more energy.
Note: You can also get more cycles from your cells if you charge to 90% of the max charge V & don't discharge as deeply (i.e. a DoD of 50% instead of 80%). You may need to add more cells in parallel to give you the extra capacity that you'll need if you reduce your min/max dis/charging -- but your cells will last at least 50% longer.
Thanks for sharing!
Look pretty good! I have a diy brushless eBoard and I found to me that the 3s 2200mah lipo is the best price/size/power... All things possible in advantage ! Bought at hobbyking and it's the most cheap packs there two years ago but I believe still is compared to 2s,4s... I even use the pack to start my motorcycle when my battery is dead! 4x 3s 2200mah 20c parallel = 176a continuous.
Julian, if you know the length of your hex key and have a set of scales then you can measure the amount of torque you are applying. If nothing else it can give you a good idea for what 3 Nm feels like.
Thanks for the video and I am looking forward to seeing more of your quad-copter project.
Good stuff. However you'll consume more than 250W as the motors are generally only 80-90% efficient, not to mention controller/cable/connector losses, but the worst is during hill starts at low RPM where the motors are extremely inefficient and place more load on the cells thereby reducing the number of charge cycles. If your controller can current limit, you might want to try playing with that.
You are seeing higher voltages than you expected? This could be because the "nominal voltage" of the cell is actually lower than the fully charged voltage. Take lithium ion for example, their nominal voltage is 3.7 but they charge to 4.2 volts. It seems to me that something very similar happens with the lithium iron phosphate cells. I have a feeling if I look at the detailed specs for some of those cells (any brand as long as they are lithium iron phosphate) I would see higher voltages for freshly charged cells. In fact I sometimes see 3.6 volt (not a typo) lithium iron phosphate cells. I am just not 100% sure if they are the exact same thing as the 3.2 volt cells and so that confuses me a bit. To me the 3.6 volt ones seem more similar to 3.7 volt lithium ion except I would never really want to use the lifepo4 to take the place of lithium ion.
The lithium iron phosphate does seem much safer. I have seen a UA-cam video of some guy cutting one with a hacksaw. If that was a lithiun ion cell it would have vented toxic fumes and exploded or caught on fire. I have seen clips of some lithium ion cells for phones punctured and they exploded very quickly. I would not try such a dangerous experiment on my own, you can be killed, maimed or blinded by an exploding or burning cell. The very least I would expect is becoming deathly ill if I accidentally inhale the fumes or at least having to go to an emergency room for treatment (if I live).
full charge is 3.65 and you should charge them to 3.55 to extend the life/cycles
Great video Julian!I don't know if you already have or not but you should really look into bottom balancing lifepo4 cells before you assemble your pack,you shouldn't have to actively balance them as much - endless sphere forum is a good resource
Now consider the mass of 12 standard Li-ion 3.7V 2.6Ah configured as 4P3S that would provide the same power [Voltage and Amp Hour capacity] in a much smaller package at likely cheaper price. {you can get two laptop batteries for $10 each that have 6 cells in each battery pack. The only variable is that LiFePo(4) can deliver more current all at once.
Re 4:00 Nominal voltage is only an average. It's normal for a full battery to be above nominal. Say you had 3,7V nominal batteries, they'd be at 4.2V when they're full and 3.2V on empty. Going above or below the max min voltages risk blowing the batteries up worst case or decreasing their life span best case.
So... with a 1C discharge rate, you will be able to use the bike for 30 minutes. The 10Ah is measured using a discharge of 0.5C. Not sure how the bike charges and discharges during use though. :)
At 1C he can use the bike for about 50 to 55 minutes since there sill be some loss at higer discharge rate. The 0.5C test was 5A for 2 hour so you get the 10Ah capacity.
update- on how there doing after 8 years ? what do they test now? any-loss of capacity?
"Create a small bomb" - Great, now I'm on ANOTHER GCHQ watchlist.
You should replace the single strip on side with a fuse going across. This way, at least your pack is fused internally. A bit more protection for this "bomb" against external short circuits.
Thanks. Could you show us how to setup balance leads step by step ? Thanks.
DOD = Depth of Discharge
Great video (as usual)
Craig Nehring Thanks Craig - of course it is. I wonder if that means 80% of the maximum capacity range defined by the upper and lower voltage limits?
Julian Ilett Oh, good question, I always assumed it was in amp hour capacity? However there is usually a corresponding voltage that would accompany the the state of charge. In the case of the venerable lead acid cell we can check this via hydrometer, coupled with a voltage test... not so with these LiFePo4. I really know little about this type of cell, perhaps then all info if supplied by the manufacturer?
I would have to assume the voltage reading would be done under load to keep things on the safe side?
Hmmm check out these charts
www.bestgopower.com/technology/documents/temperature-test.html
Julian Ilett
If i remember correctly the voltage over discharge curve of LIFEPO4 is quite flat, and as such is not a good indication of the DOD. The best way to keep track of DOD with these cells, especially on an Ebike would be to use something like a Cycle Analyst (expensive but very much worth it from my experience) or you could use teh cheaper method that i used to use which was to run a watts up meter or equivelant on the battery output and monitor the AH drained from the pack... the cycle analyst has the added benefit of being able to use a remote current sensing shunt to monitor the pack from the handlebars, and if your controller supports it it can actually perform the functions of Low Voltage Cut Out and Current Limiter.
I use this exact setup now and have done for about 3 years, only is use 12S of Lipo at 10AH... although if i ever have the money to upgrade the battery pack i would definately think of LiFePo4 now, possibly A123.
Julian Ilett
It mens they discharged the cells from 100% SOC (state of charge) to 20% SOC or 80% DOD for 2000 cycles at 1C and after all this cycles they still need to have around 80% (noting to do with 80% DOD) of theyr original capacity.
In Lithium battery industry a battery is considered at the end of the life when it gest down to 80% of the original capacity in your case 8Ah since at that level you will probably not be happy and will need a new battery.
Say you need 8Ah to go from home to work and back so by the tyme they get about 2000 cycles you will need to replace them to be able to get back home and not need to use your feet at the end of the drive :)
When you use the SBMS make sure you not use a fuse on the battery+ therminal use the fuse on the Load+ the battery+ should be the first wire connected and the last one disconnected to protect the SBMS.
***** our normal Graphene lifepo4 38120 ,3.2V 10ah ,work 5C ,burst 10C ,cycle time 3000times SOC 85% , ...this cell we also can product cycle time reach 8000times soc 85%,can wok -50°C SOC 80%，work 40C ,burst 100C
very interesting these batteries
Is it a nice safe chemistry? I bet the bike will work great!
Hi Julian, I want a battery bank of 20 KW 48 volt 300 Ah, do you have a schedule for that.
Hey, anyone know where i can buy LiFePO4 38120 in Germany right now?
Can this battery used in the 3kw hub wheel of a motorcycle?
How to calculate the battery requirement range for 100km?
also, need a good BMS suitable for this conversation with normal 4 hours charging and fast charger @1Km/min
Rated Power: 3000W V3 Peak Power: 5000W Rated Voltage
91% Continuous current:45A Max Current:80A (Peak 100A in short time)
it would be great if I get help from you
I really wanted to watch what you were going to do with these batteries but it seems the videos don't exist? the closest I can find is part 3 on the electric bike being installed with these in them but part 1 and 2 don't exist. what happened? did I miss much or is jumping into the third park ok?
Interesting video as always :) I saw that the spec showed energy density, do you know how much you will gain?
Not a fan of those bus bars with batteries that can surge such high current. I'm getting some of these for a project but I will be using fuse wire.
We've seen super capacitors as vehicle batteries, but these certainly seem a better option to me. How much did all the cells cost though?
Peter C £13.75 each, so £110 for the 8 cells, plus another £15 for the holders, connecting strips and ring terminals. Certainly not cheap, but much easier to assemble than packs made with 18650s. Also, LiFePo4 is safer and offers more charge and discharge cycles than Li-ion.
+Julian Ilett and a weight advantage I'd assume?
@@JulianIlett Which website did you buy these from?There are numerous scam sites out there
Thanks for the video!
they are nice juicy batteries!
wow. these look dangerous. there is a reason even electric cars mostly use 18650 cells only. Be careful with them but if they are LiFePo4 they should be at least a bit safer than li-ion.
Some very interesting and really cheap cells.
does tesla use 18650 and not these larger cells? i wonder what they use exactly in them :}
, further googline tells me that its Panasonic NCR18650A 3100mAh, with nickel alloy electrodes not carbon, and they now have a 4000ma cell in production, and have a partnership agreement with Tesla, so i guess thats what tesla chose and have to stick with for now
i had these leak, reading up on the hazards of the electrolyte is scary.
are they still working ? i am planing to buy those for my electric bike . what about 18650 34000 mah ?
dod= depth of discharge ie dont discharge more than 8ah to achieve 2000 life cycles think this is normally set to 80% capacity as well so at 2000 80% dod cycles you be left with an 8ah cell ;-)
Brilliant!
does LiFePO4 need balancers?
im looking for a battery for my 200W led flashlight (i maybe upgrade to 400W someday)
btw, is this a 38120SE ? didnt they have a C of 10? (100A cont, 150A short)
Generally any cell chemistry could do with balancing. NiMh (and Nicad? -I can't remember) batteries can suffer from cell voltage reversal if 'over discharged' when in series - cell or tanic taps would fix that. And most if not all lithum chemistry batteries have very critical charge termination voltages, so balance or individual charging per cell is critical if you want to get anywhere near their rated lifespan.
gamerpaddy our normal Graphene lifepo4 38120 ,3.2V 10ah ,work 5C ,burst 10C ,cycle time 3000times SOC 85% ,price £11/pcs ...this cell we also can product cycle time reach 8000times soc 85%,can wok -50°C SOC 80%，work 40C ,burst 100C
Where can I buy them?
Julian - DOD = Depth of Discharge buddy. Unlike lead acid cells. Those guys you can run down to 80% DOD unlike SLA or LA cells which don't like much more than 35-40% DOD :)
Looks like lifepo4 batteries have seriously come down in price. A few years back ping was selling packs for around a grand. So if I doing the math right this less than 200 dollar pack will get about an hours ride on your bike?
ristopher llis That sounds about right. A lot more if you assist by peddling.
what size of alternator do i need to charge the batters i have an 12v 80amp alternator in my car will that work
Hi where did you get the banana sockets you attached to the terminal bars please :)
Do charge this battery with a balancer only.
Hi. Can you show me how wire BMS to yr 4 lipo battery for 12 volt
14 pounds a cell is an amazing price!
Thakiid101 : amazing??? Sounds high as shit, not amazing.
@@Pushyhog Its 17 quid for the 8ah HP cells. With 200a cont not alot competes
hi can you show me how wire bms board to yr battery pack thanks
How much for everything $$$????
DOD = depth of discharge. in other words do not fully discharge them to get 500 more cycles
what to use to keep them balanced?
It says 105Wh/kg. Hmm. From my calculations it is more like 76Wh/kg.
Link please :) These make nice 12 packs too.
how do you know those little things dont have 4 2500mah 3.2v batteries in them? ..just thinkg it would be a rip off..maybe not price wise, but aesthetic wise.
If u reasearch internet u will see that those are indeed 10 ah
Marcelo Santos indeed ..kind of a face palm moment after you research the different types of lithium batteries and see your old comment.
Jullian, how about to connect these 10Ah cells for solar ?
solar controllers for lithium are hard to find, and even hard to find a solar panel he can tow behind his electric bike :}
jusb1066 Electrodacus very kindly sent me his SBMS (solar battery management system). So in the spring, I'm hoping I will be able to charge the battery pack directly from a couple of 80W solar panels. The SBMS will manage cell balancing and overvoltage cutout. If I mount the SBMS onto the battery pack, it will also be able to look after undervoltage cutout. That will be fun to play with.
Julian Ilett
indeed an undervoltage will be a good thing to add, and be interesting to see what you can feed the charge with too
pb batteries i prefer for solar
There are a variety of charge controllers available that take lithium cells. If you used these cells for home solar power then you practically would need about 80 cells at least. The good thing about these is their rated capacity is usable. Unlike lead acid where they only really suggest you draw it down to half way of it's rated capacity, meaning that 80 of these cells is = to actually about 5x100Ah deep cycle batteries. Which would take up more space and weigh around 150kg, vs only 28kg for 80 of these cells. If you can buy them in bulk then it's a good option, but finding a legit supplier and not some nasty counterfeits is always an issue. 80 itself isn't really a bulk buy, if you buy 80 you probably would have to pay at least $15 per cell at the minimum, so you would be looking at $1200 in total. There are bigger options than the 38120 cells though, there are huge versions of these that are called 60280's and they are up to 70Ah each and they are 60mm wide and 280mm long (nearly as long as a common school ruler). Because these big cells are = to 7 32120's in capacity then you could buy just 12 of them instead. You can get them for as low at 90 dollars each, so you are looking at $1080 dollars.
Hi. nice video. What kind of Balance charger are you planning to use for this pack?
i think he bought a turnigy charger a few weeks back, of course it will take 10-15 hours to recharge this pack using it
jusb1066 Yes, I'll be using the Turnigy 8S charger initially.
Are these the same physical size as the 8ah?
No.
equivalent to $110~$120 for a ebike battery. not bad for new cells. still too high for me. defanitly going to look into these cells and see if i can find some from china for 1/10th the price. most unlikely.
You shouldn't have wasted your money on that turnigy charger. Search for a pcm/bms for under/overvoltage and over amp protection and just use the stand alone charger that came with it.
Fortunately, those are lithium IRON not ION, so even if you short it you don't create a bomb, you create a fire - eventually.
Why not use the prismatic cells as they are more efficient volume-wise and cheaper Wh/$ ?
www.batteryspace.com/lifepo4-prismatic-module-3-2v-20-ah-10c-rate-64-wh-6-0---un38-3-passed-dgr.aspx
sorry where your bike?
hi how much did you pay for them?
Im a big fan of 18650.Now LifePo4
wow, looks beefy !
what's the weight of those ?
dude you need to fix the link!
how to add 2pcs how to connect
Lithium-titanate batteries get 6000-20000 cycles ;)
@butchtropic Ok... just saying.
How can get in India
These seem very appropriate for solar.
I would rather use deep cycle lead acid batteries except if you want something very light or portable. (If it's a stationary system you don't care about the high weight of lead, so you should choose lead-acid because it is quite a safe chemistry)
Its ashame,they're not 3.7
it is ion, not iron ? :o
It's iron, not ion. Have some experience before correcting an expert vlogger
www.bicyclehero.com/ca/giant-torkey-set-4nm-torque-wrench.html?gclid=CKKIuYaS-8ICFUE0aQodABkADw#.VKmdl5V0zIU
this is the torque key I use. pre set to 4nm.
Mike Novo That's exactly what I wanted. There is a UK stockist, but £18 is a lot to spend on a tool that I have only one use for. But very, very tempted!
I have a few. All carbon racing bikes are built with torque wrenches. The beauty of this one is that you can change the bits. I think the already come with 4-6mm bits. well worth it as you don't have to set the value. I have 4, 5 and 6nm keys which covers 95% of all settings. Considering the cost of this project, the purchase would be well worth it.
and I guarantee you WILL use it again. Even if to just service your pack again. A lot of stuff is built to torque spec these days.
BTW, been meaning to ask you. Are are happy with your OWON scope? I'm debating on getting one or an older CRT to start with.
Great video - didn't know you had already bought the batteries. I'll second jaaasgoed's comment - be sure to fuse the pack internally. Tesla does this very nicely in their own packs: gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?23745-Inside-Tesla-s-battery-pack
Jakehop I just got them today! I'll put an additional fuse between the two 12V packs.
Let me know how they work out.
My e-bike has a 36v motor, so I'm contemplating how to do the balanced charging. If I go with the LiFePo-batteries I'd need 12 in series. I figure a dual 6S-charger might do the trick, or a switch to put the cells in 6S2P for charging.
Your Turnigy-unit has such an excellent price point, that I figure getting two of them in the worst case scenario.
Jakehop Try to avoid switches. Reliable units rated to your requirements will be expensive and hard to find in anything more complex than SPST. I'd favour making plugs and a socket made from simple terminals and physically arranging the terminals in a rectangle to make connection of the chargers and a series link idiot proof. If you go the twin RC model charger route and want to charge at a decent rate look for chargers with an input voltage at or above the terminal voltage of your packs. Most of the makers will proudly boast of the max current capability but you also need to look at max power throughput if the charger needs to boost the voltage from your supply
Rob B Thanks for the ideas, Rob!
I almost never use mechanical switches for high voltage or high current switching anymore, but instead using MOSFETS. I should probably have made myself clearer, so thanks for pointing that out.
My bike is a three-wheeler with a big box. I'm thinking about making my own charger, perhaps one that is integrated in the box and can be plugged in with a IEC-connector.
DOD =Depth of Discharge
D.O.D. Depth of Discharge.
he baught 8 cells at £13.75 per 10ah 3.2v cells 8x13.75 = £110
Daniel Hornes our normal Graphene lifepo4 38120 ,3.2V 10ah ,work 5C ,burst 10C ,cycle time 3000times SOC 85% ,price £11/pcs ...this cell we also can product cycle time reach 8000times soc 85%,can wok -50°C SOC 80%，work 40C ,burst 100C