Good enuff review but .. Wood is not of stable properties to perform in that application. Metal vibration noise and wear on the grinder itself is far from suitable. Has your lid actually broken, have you replaced the hinge assembly? Lid seemed to function during burr swap. Updated design as opposed to sleek and modern? Name them please I want to know what ones to compare this look with. Divisive? This is a smoke and mirrors descriptor. Everything can be considered such. Not one thing created will please everyone.
Thanks for the great overview! Upgrading from a Sette 270WI to this and excited to get back into single dosing for a fresher experience. I do 99% espresso, so the burr swap will be perfect when I have a guest that wants filter coffee, or on the off chance I get a bean I want to explore outside of the espresso environment. I realize the dual burr option may seem gimmicky for some, but I think I'm the "niche" customer that this is perfect for.
Really appreciate your reviews. When I’m getting serious about a potential espresso related purchase, I look to see if you’ve done a video on it. Thanks so much.
Great review. Particularly appreciate the comments vs the DF83. I have the Niche zero and love it, but am burr curious. My reservation with the Duo is the lack of 3rd party burr options. Would love to see a review of the new DF64V.
@@LifestyleLab_ After some research, I came to the conclusion that it's not that easy. This grinder has been developed and tested around the supplied burrsets. With these, retention is low and RDT usually not necessary and they fit the carriers exactly. That might not be the case for your beloved or hyped aftermarket burrset. Differences might be in necessary torque or some other characteristics. Keep in mind that Niche Duo spins at relatively low speed (530 rpm) compared to common 83 mm grinders (typically ~1.400 rpm) - the necessary torque is higher at lower speed. That might be why one of the reasons why they are clearly stating you will lose your warranty by using third party burrs. All that's not just overthinking and theory. I have not yet seen a single report of actual, permanent successfull use with an after market burrset (be it SSP HU, MP, LS or something else) that did not compromise in some aspect. What I see are reports of people that switched back to the stock burrset because of overall better performance (workflow or taste in cup). That being said: Yes, more alternative burrsets especially for espresso would be very nice and would give the concept a stronger sense. Thing is, of the 83 mm burrs currently available from Mazzer, I don't see which ones that should be
Thanks for your review. Yet, i'm really interested in the Duo. 99% of the time I drink espresso but i'd like to make cold brew coffee. Do you think i need to buy the filter burr set?
While you’d possibly be better served with the filter set, for those times you make cold brew the espresso set will serve you perfectly fine due to how coarse grinding typically is for cold brew
Thanks. I enjoyed your review. I recently ordered the niche duo (delivery in August) after pulling out of the Timemore 078s kickstarter. Everything I’ve seen makes me feel I made the right call.
I have the Zero and I like it. Is it worth upgrading? If I upgrade, I’ll just buy it with the espresso burrs, because my the drinks I usually make are espresso, cappuccino and americano. If I ever try making a pour over I’ll just use the espresso burrs
Don’t upgrade just for the sake of upgrading if you’re happy with your setup. But objectively, yes, the Duo does have better grind quality and can produce better shots
@@LifestyleLab_ How does this comment age, with Hoffmans comparison of particle size distribution between the zero and duo espresso burr essentially saying they grind the same, and he could not even pick apart a difference in a shot pulled from either one.
It gives a good demonstration of the subjectivity of A/B tasting and testing. I VERY much stand by my results in this video, and I'm not the only reviewer who was surprised by Hoffmanns results stating he found little difference.
The Niche Duo and the DF83 are definitely up there, but if you are going to be purely dealing with light roasts I think IDEALLY you’d want something other than the stock burr sets
I have the zero and my daily driver is a piccolo so I enjoy the grinder. I do enjoy the occasional cold brew or v60 though. The burr swap would annoy me though, I'd rather a good allrounder such as the p64 or if I wanted 2, grab a hand grinder for filter. Also I think Niche are a bit late to the party now, should have released beginning of 2022 latest.
Nice one Matt, I just took the plunge. Even if you never did get the commission for my DE1 from John, I used your link for this one! Now just a 6-8 week wait.
@@LifestyleLab_ Just took delivery of the Duo - a wonderful step up in flavour separation and sweetness compared to the Zero. Very pleased with my upgrade!
How much is the customs charge when it enter the USA? Is it a pain in the ass yo get out of customs? This is the only reason im not sure about buyi g it and both burrs sets
@@LifestyleLab_ok I will re-visit the web page to have a look thanks alot for the info. I enjoy your no nonsense reveiws and the way you say all aspects of the product and say whether you like it or not. Thanks
I'd say depends what king of espresso you enjoy. If you like a heavy body and chocolatey flavours for shots and milk drinks, I'd say it's not worth it if you already have a filter grinder. If you want to explore lighter brighter tasting espresso, it might be worth considering
I’d argue that the Lagom grinders (P64, P100) have an similar great (in case of the P100 arguably even better) workflow and have just as low retention.
While the P100 has a knocker, it has lower total retention than the Niche Zero while being large flat burrs. And exchange is virtually none. That's no easy feat. The Lagom Mini has no knocker and less total retention than the NZ as well.
I'm currently looking to buy a good coffee grinder. I don't make filter coffee, I only need it for espresso. If the (currently £100) difference is not an issue, would you pick the duo over the zero?
@@LifestyleLab_ This is probably always a question of taste. In these days (one year after this video), the more general consensus is that you should not expect big, but subtle differences between Niche Zero and Duo espresso burrs. For very dark roasts, the Niche Zero might produce a little more sirupy shots. For anything else, Duo might produce a little less body but a little more clarity. Whatever James Hoffmann stated, it was to broad! They are not the same! You might find yourself adjusting your recipes. Maybe you want to pull shots with grinds from a Duo at a higher brew rate than with a Zero. But then: That's not you! You have to try for yourself
Absolutely, the original is still a fantastic grinder, especially if you’re using it primarily for milk drinks where you’re not as concerned about have perfect “clarity and flavour separation” in the shot itself because it’s being mixed in with milk
Thank you. Getting the Profitec Go and your channel was helpful in this regard. For milk based drinks Niche Zero vs Solo DF64 Gen 2 Grinder what would be your preference (100 GBP difference here in London) @@LifestyleLab_
I've been looking for a single dose grinder to brew filter coffee and either the Niche Zero or Duo seem to be top choices. The start of the video made me lean towards the Zero for less popcorning but you then said it's not good for filter coffee so I assume the Duo with filter burrs would be the best option for me?
About popcorning: Place something like a lid upon the beans. If it's flexible, you can even use it as a small bellows (if you like). I use a silicone lid that was made to cover open cans, works perfectly. And there is also something specially designed for it by the 'Introvert'.
@@Martin-i8o8n I ended up getting the Breville Smart Grinder Pro and it has no popcorning issues at all and I've been very happy with it. Works both for single dose or filling the hopper.
@@aabsc Great, be fine with and enjoy what you have! Coffee matters most. I ended up getting the Niche Duo and after some alignment I am more than happy with it (sold my Niche Zero). Popcorning is not an issue here in reality. And if that bothers you a bit, you can simply put a silicone lid on it, with which you can then blow out the small rest at the end.
I've always wondered why some reviewers and user get near zero retention from the Niche while others have to drop the lid/tap the top/rock the grinder to get up to 0.5g of grinds out. Being spot on and missing 0.5g is DRASTICALLY different, and it makes you wonder about Niche's manufacturing tolerances~~~
And kudos to you for being the only one that's willing to point out the fact that changing burrs between drinks on a daily basis is unrealistic, a point other reviewers either didn't grasp or, more likely, weren't willing to discuss.
This confuses me a bit too, but I have genuinely never had a dose be more than 0.2g more or less than what I’ve put in. Except for the first one or two after cleaning. With or without RDT.
@@persianwingmanFor filter, it will be a pretty minor difference, but perhaps still noticeable in comparative tasting if you know what you're looking for. In espresso, it will absolutely make a difference. Because the coffee-to-water ratio is so high, pretty much any small tweak in your recipe is going to manifest as a significant change.
@@bm-br3go You must have the taste buds of an angel if you think you can taste the difference of 0.5g of coffee 😅 Give it a go with a blind taste test and see for yourself.
I cannot really follow your conclusion. You said no one would change the burrs between drinks, in my opinion you are absolutely right. Furthermore you mentioned the popcorn effect, in my opinion a no-go for a single dose grinder that should work very precise. Last but not least, the DUO is bigger and more expensive. My clear decision would be to buy the Zero.
You can now buy the grinder with only one burrset, so the first point is now solved. Popcorning will always occur, this grinder just doesn’t have a cover (nothing to do with precision) The most important aspect is grind quality, and that is where the Duo will beat the Zero by a wide margin. Whether you’re using for filter or espresso.
@@LifestyleLab_ Humph. Why is this in the comments here and not in the video? Comparison of grind quality between Niche Duo and Zero was missing there. Considering espresso, what did you like better about the Duo? Would be interesting to know! (Unlike James Hoffmann, I don't think there are no noticeable differences in the cup. By the way, I think that he has generalized this too much in his somewhat striking presentation)
@@LifestyleLab_ Not really. For espresso, you only say there that you prefer the Niche Duo to the X54. No words about Niche Duo vs. Zero when it comes to espresso
The Niche Zero is a very fines heavy grinder. Borderline unusable for filter, very body forward for espresso, not really suited to lighter roasts. The espresso burr set on the Duo, while not clarity monsters, gave a more clean presentation that suited are roast levels well. Seems like a good summary to me :)
I only drink espresso and was stuck between a kinu hand grinder vs niche .. I know we're comparing conical vs flat but at this level of my rabbit hole I was able to swallow the price point of a Kinu... What do you say? In for a penny and in for a pound and just go for the niche or kinu is as good as they say and will make me a very happy espresso drinker for few years?....
Hand grinding for espresso is great in theory, but most will get tired of it VERY quickly. It’s genuinely a lot of work, even on a tabletop grinder like the HG-1, let alone a handheld grinder. I would go with the Niche all day long for that reason alone.
Was about to say the same thing. I started with a jx-pro and then bought the eureka oro much later. Handgrinding for espresso is ok once in a while, but too much work if u're going to do it everyday. Single/double dose and roast levels becomes important factors, especially during dialling in. I normally use the jx for french press and oro for espresso, with the occasional espresso on jx for comparison or when i'm in the tinkering mood.
I heard the motor of the Duo is not very powerful like the DF83 for instance. And I know that installing SSP burrs will require more power from the motor. So just wondering if it’s going to affect the grinder performance?
There is a huge difference in torque on a direct drive motor and a reduced gear driven grinder, I think that’s why the duo don’t have any problems even if it has less power.
That +/- 0.2g is wholly dependant on your air humidity and how hard you tip- and bang it back down to knock out the leftovers. Also +1 to up the framerate. 24 is way too low these days. Feels like watching a slideshow
What’s the relationship between humidity and retention? More humidity = more retention? Or lower humidity = more static = more retention? I live in a very dry area so I’m curious.
@@grahamhawes7089 Where I live the humidity is really low so the static gets pretty bad. I can imagine it's the same on the other end too, though. That if the air humidity is really high there could also be more retention. Anyway, this is nitpicking. If I lost my Zero tomorrow, I would buy another one, no hesitation 😊
I make pour over during the week, and only make espresso on the weekends when I have the time. Would the duo be a good choice for someone like me? Other option is the Df64 variable for both or Ode gen 2 for filter, and maybe the new sk40 conical for espresso only. Thanks, and keep up the great videos.
I think that your use case does make sense for the Duo. Take a good look at the real time example of changing the burrs I did, and just be honest with yourself if that’s something you’re willing to do twice a week. If it is, then I think this is the unicorn grinder for you :) the changeover really is impressive. After filming this video, I popped the espresso burrs back in, put it back to the grind setting I had previously, and my shot came out perfectly first try despite messing around with the grinder in studio for a week
Hey im in the market for one of these 2 grinders. im not sure if I should just go for the duo and pay a little extra or if its not even that worth it. I have a brief grasp on the flavour profiles but typically i like medium roasts and chocolatey creamy bodies. What would be your suggestion out of the 2 grinders?
If you have any interest at all in brewing methods outside of espresso, then go with the duo. The grinding quality is superior all around. With that being said, if your budget is very tight and you do just like darker richer espressos then you will be happy with the niche zero
Thanks for the prompt response. I'm almost an espresso maximalist so no intention for other brewing methods. I just want to be able to brew the "best" espresso@@LifestyleLab_
Does the Niche stop automatically after you finish grinding or time control? Or would you have to stand next to it like a assembly line worker flipping switches up and down?
With the greatest of respect, the lid is not made of plastic and the hinges are not weak! The lid is polycarbonate, the same material police riot shields are made of and have you ever actually heard of a hinge breaking. Having been testing the Duo since October last year, I did not find pop corning to be an issue. Yes, it does happen (a little) but so what?
As an engineer I absolutely appreciate that not all plastics are created equal. However, what I was referring to is the FEEL of the lid, and that the experience does not match the price point in my opinion :)
Much of the Stile's price would come down to the fact that it's for commercial use as well. For consumer, there are much better grinder options in that price range
@@LifestyleLab_ Many thanks for your prompt reply. Could you list a few of the better grinder options in order of your preference? I have a Barista Pro with a single dose hopper/bellow and although the inbuilt grinder has done a pretty good job overall and has been a good learning experience for me, it does ultimately lack grind consistency shot to shot and is quite loud in operation. I'm now wanting to improve my espresso and work flow with a more capable, grind consistent and quieter grinder for the long term. I only do espresso and prefer a more full bodied textured espresso with a little clarity and I use medium - dark roasted beans. This is where I thought the "Stile" might shine with it's lower 1200rpm in comparison to the higher rpm Eureka Magnifico and XL although I know that the type of flat burr has a big role to play. Another of my initial choices is the Niche Zero but very expensive here in Australia which also leeds me to my indecision between Conical vs Flat for my preferred espresso taste profile? I'd really appreciate your feedback. Thanks.
I think that looking at the Niche Duo or DF83 are excellent choices for single dosing. For hopper-fed, the Eureka Specialita / Magnifico or Mahlkonig X54
Its totally false that the niche doesnt require a bellows, and its frustrating that no mainstream reviews mention the reality. I own a niche zero, and can tell you that smashing the plastic lid down numerous times after grinding is an essential part of the "perfect workflow" to fall into the 0.1-0.2g retention range. At that point, a bellows would actually be a quieter and less abrasive solution...
That has never been remotely essential on either of my grinders. If it were, I would mention it. Perhaps time for a grinder cleaning?? I turn the grinder on, turn it off, and weigh the output. These IS still exchange with this grinder (as mentioned), but the dose in vs yield out has always been within honestly 0.1g without fail and without any grinder beating
Do you use rdt? When I forget to Rdt with my zero, I have more retention just as you describe. But with Rdt I do not need to knock the grinder to get everything out.
Almost every time I take the cup, I find a small amount of ground coffee that felt inside. I agree that closing the lid several times make some ground coffee fall. However that's not critical as it seems consistent, so I don't bother doing it. The first step of my workflow is just to dump the small amount of ground coffee that felt inside the cup
This feels like a Niche paid advertising. Would have loved if you would have addressed some of the cons (impossible that a nearly 1000 dollar grinder has only popcorn effect as a con.
@@LifestyleLab_ so other than pocorning you have NO other issues??? Just want to be sure, some people mention retention and poor customer support stateside. I didn’t mean to come off like a dick although reading my comment I guess I did 😂 it’s just that deciding on the grinder has been a project. I swear I got my smoker easier (and that was a soul searching process within itself). For a 500-700 dollar budget, espresso lover, what grinder or brand would you recommend? I was zeroing in on eureka and now I’m not sure 🤔
@mannyr8795 personally I have gotten PERFECT single dosing from both of my Niche grinders. Other downside I mentioned and standby is the lid. It feels cheap and is loud opening and closing. Not matching the overall price point of the grinder. So biggest general complaints: - Dated design - Cheap Lid - WAY more messy than the zero due to popcorning
@@LifestyleLab_ so any other grinder you recommend for someone like me? 500-700 budget, espresso lover (don’t care for switching to pour over grinds). I was looking at the eureka zero vs the oro mignon… Help 😂
i really dont understand why people keep saying workflow... u turn it on, it grinds beans... if it's too course or fine, you change it... people who make coffee must be a bunch of morons that it needs some kind of workflow to operate a grinder
Thanks for the rudely presented insight Peter… The process can vary a lot actually. For example, are you using a hopper fed machine that grinds by time? Are you single dosing? Do you need to use bellows or a knocker to get out all the coffee? Do you grind from a hopper fed machine and then weight the portafilter after and add/subtract coffee to each your desired dose?
@@LifestyleLab_ it's all the same workflow doesn't matter which machine you use for single dose... step 1: you weight you bean, RDT step 2: you pour into the grinder machine step 3: you flip the switch step 4: you use hopper, knocker, bello whatever to take out the grinds that are stuck. step 5: you turn off your grider Doesn't matter which grinder you choose. For a single dose, it the same steps, same workflow. If you make a big deal of fine tuning your grind setting or whether it's bellos or kocker, I can't help you and I can only tell that you're a really high maintenance person.
@@LifestyleLab_ It's the same workflow whichever machine you choose. The only thing matters is that if it makes that difference and makes your coffee taste a lot better than others
@@LifestyleLab_ that extra minute isn't anything extra, that is indeed part of my steps. I would do that whether it is a single dose grinder or any other grinder with a hopper. got it??? Regardless of which grinder, my "workflow" is the same!
The cinematic in between shots are amazing, really gorgeous. It's just the way you tend to move a lot when you talk your hands look very choppy. You sound like the game of thrones editor about that night time scene "it's not dark on my monitor" lmao. Good video overall, it's just that it can be much less distracting at 30 fps or more.
@@snapphanen Nah mate, this is completely a "you" issue. no chopping or harshness here. dont blame this guy for your shitty monitor/pc. Also just dont be weirdo in general lol. complaining about frame rate on a grinder review. jesus mate haha.
So, was the Duo worth the wait? Or are there still other grinders you’d consider first? Let me know!
Exactly
Saw the EG-1 but its too expensive so I'll stick with what I have, the niche zero.
Good enuff review but .. Wood is not of stable properties to perform in that application. Metal vibration noise and wear on the grinder itself is far from suitable. Has your lid actually broken, have you replaced the hinge assembly? Lid seemed to function during burr swap. Updated design as opposed to sleek and modern? Name them please I want to know what ones to compare this look with. Divisive? This is a smoke and mirrors descriptor. Everything can be considered such. Not one thing created will please everyone.
@@LifestyleLab_ u took 16 gm beans of powder so how ml espresso u got From it
Typical espresso brew ratios are between 1:2 and 1:3
Thanks for the great overview! Upgrading from a Sette 270WI to this and excited to get back into single dosing for a fresher experience. I do 99% espresso, so the burr swap will be perfect when I have a guest that wants filter coffee, or on the off chance I get a bean I want to explore outside of the espresso environment. I realize the dual burr option may seem gimmicky for some, but I think I'm the "niche" customer that this is perfect for.
I ended up deciding on the Zero and received it a couple weeks ago. Pretty happy with it so far.
Really appreciate your reviews. When I’m getting serious about a potential espresso related purchase, I look to see if you’ve done a video on it. Thanks so much.
LOVE the design. Retro, classic.
Great review. Particularly appreciate the comments vs the DF83. I have the Niche zero and love it, but am burr curious. My reservation with the Duo is the lack of 3rd party burr options. Would love to see a review of the new DF64V.
You can fit any set of 83mm burrs onto the Duos burr carriers. They just don’t offer those options per-installed
@@LifestyleLab_ After some research, I came to the conclusion that it's not that easy. This grinder has been developed and tested around the supplied burrsets. With these, retention is low and RDT usually not necessary and they fit the carriers exactly. That might not be the case for your beloved or hyped aftermarket burrset. Differences might be in necessary torque or some other characteristics. Keep in mind that Niche Duo spins at relatively low speed (530 rpm) compared to common 83 mm grinders (typically ~1.400 rpm) - the necessary torque is higher at lower speed. That might be why one of the reasons why they are clearly stating you will lose your warranty by using third party burrs.
All that's not just overthinking and theory. I have not yet seen a single report of actual, permanent successfull use with an after market burrset (be it SSP HU, MP, LS or something else) that did not compromise in some aspect. What I see are reports of people that switched back to the stock burrset because of overall better performance (workflow or taste in cup).
That being said: Yes, more alternative burrsets especially for espresso would be very nice and would give the concept a stronger sense. Thing is, of the 83 mm burrs currently available from Mazzer, I don't see which ones that should be
We got to get to 100k subscribers ! Your videos are awesome and there’s people missing out!
Fingers crossed we get there soon! 🤞
It is calibrated upon arrival? Also how often is calibration needed. Thank you so much for your wonderful video!!
It is zeroed straight out of the box, yes. This shouldn’t be required to be done again unless you were to remove the burrs from the burr carriers
Thanks for your review.
Yet, i'm really interested in the Duo. 99% of the time I drink espresso but i'd like to make cold brew coffee. Do you think i need to buy the filter burr set?
While you’d possibly be better served with the filter set, for those times you make cold brew the espresso set will serve you perfectly fine due to how coarse grinding typically is for cold brew
Thanks. I enjoyed your review. I recently ordered the niche duo (delivery in August) after pulling out of the Timemore 078s kickstarter. Everything I’ve seen makes me feel I made the right call.
I have the Zero and I like it. Is it worth upgrading? If I upgrade, I’ll just buy it with the espresso burrs, because my the drinks I usually make are espresso, cappuccino and americano. If I ever try making a pour over I’ll just use the espresso burrs
Don’t upgrade just for the sake of upgrading if you’re happy with your setup. But objectively, yes, the Duo does have better grind quality and can produce better shots
@@LifestyleLab_ How does this comment age, with Hoffmans comparison of particle size distribution between the zero and duo espresso burr essentially saying they grind the same, and he could not even pick apart a difference in a shot pulled from either one.
It gives a good demonstration of the subjectivity of A/B tasting and testing. I VERY much stand by my results in this video, and I'm not the only reviewer who was surprised by Hoffmanns results stating he found little difference.
thanks for the video. What do you think would be the best grinder to exploit the clarity of light, or even putôt medium, roasts in espresso?
The Niche Duo and the DF83 are definitely up there, but if you are going to be purely dealing with light roasts I think IDEALLY you’d want something other than the stock burr sets
I have the zero and my daily driver is a piccolo so I enjoy the grinder. I do enjoy the occasional cold brew or v60 though. The burr swap would annoy me though, I'd rather a good allrounder such as the p64 or if I wanted 2, grab a hand grinder for filter. Also I think Niche are a bit late to the party now, should have released beginning of 2022 latest.
Nice one Matt, I just took the plunge. Even if you never did get the commission for my DE1 from John, I used your link for this one! Now just a 6-8 week wait.
Congratulations on the machine and grinder!!
Unfortunately no Niche referral program either 🥲
@@LifestyleLab_ Just took delivery of the Duo - a wonderful step up in flavour separation and sweetness compared to the Zero. Very pleased with my upgrade!
@@potkettle After all this time: Has this difference lasted for you? Are you still satisfied or do you have any observations?
How much is the customs charge when it enter the USA? Is it a pain in the ass yo get out of customs? This is the only reason im not sure about buyi g it and both burrs sets
They've improved this process now. I believe their website has it all laid out nicely. Essentially they gave a big price drop outside the UK
@@LifestyleLab_ok I will re-visit the web page to have a look thanks alot for the info. I enjoy your no nonsense reveiws and the way you say all aspects of the product and say whether you like it or not. Thanks
The question is shall i upgrade to the duo , eventho i have a different grinder for filter coffee
I'd say depends what king of espresso you enjoy. If you like a heavy body and chocolatey flavours for shots and milk drinks, I'd say it's not worth it if you already have a filter grinder. If you want to explore lighter brighter tasting espresso, it might be worth considering
I’d argue that the Lagom grinders (P64, P100) have an similar great (in case of the P100 arguably even better) workflow and have just as low retention.
I agree, the P64 seems very similar if not identical in performance, but also at a very steep price point. The P100 has a knocker
@@LifestyleLab_ true, but it also has that neat auto purge where it briefly increases the RPM to max after the beans are through.
Yes, super clever feature!
While the P100 has a knocker, it has lower total retention than the Niche Zero while being large flat burrs. And exchange is virtually none. That's no easy feat.
The Lagom Mini has no knocker and less total retention than the NZ as well.
@@LifestyleLab_ Correct. Two-and-a-half times the price depending on where you live (EU: € 820 vs. € 2.000)
I'm currently looking to buy a good coffee grinder. I don't make filter coffee, I only need it for espresso. If the (currently £100) difference is not an issue, would you pick the duo over the zero?
Price no option, I’d pick the Duo every time. Get the espresso burrs and you’re off to the races
@@LifestyleLab_ are the flat burrs really that much better than the conicals? (I’ve never tried anything other than conical yet)
@halftome those particular conicals versus those particular flats, yes
@@LifestyleLab_ This is probably always a question of taste. In these days (one year after this video), the more general consensus is that you should not expect big, but subtle differences between Niche Zero and Duo espresso burrs. For very dark roasts, the Niche Zero might produce a little more sirupy shots. For anything else, Duo might produce a little less body but a little more clarity.
Whatever James Hoffmann stated, it was to broad!
They are not the same! You might find yourself adjusting your recipes. Maybe you want to pull shots with grinds from a Duo at a higher brew rate than with a Zero.
But then: That's not you! You have to try for yourself
I'm surprised you didnt clean out the burr chamber between burr swaps.
Absolutely a good time to do a quick cleaning too :)
Makes sense in order to show how long just swapping takes
For espresso - milk based drinks, would the Zero original model be enough?
Absolutely, the original is still a fantastic grinder, especially if you’re using it primarily for milk drinks where you’re not as concerned about have perfect “clarity and flavour separation” in the shot itself because it’s being mixed in with milk
Thank you. Getting the Profitec Go and your channel was helpful in this regard. For milk based drinks Niche Zero vs Solo DF64 Gen 2 Grinder what would be your preference (100 GBP difference here in London)
@@LifestyleLab_
I’d probably pick the Gen2 DF64 over the original Niche Zero. Only downside is its significantly louder
@@LifestyleLab_ Plus what we call 'workflow' and cleanliness inside of the grinder (chute of the DF64) is worlds different
So, to be clear, you're saying the Duo using the flat burr set always out performed the Zero for filter coffee?
Correct, the conical Niche is just FAR too fines heavy to be viable for filter.
So, for espresso, zero or duo?
Duo with espresso burrs is best if you have the budget :)
Can u inform me both of price of saudi riyal how much ❤
That's a question for the brand, I don't know if they distribute to that region
I've been looking for a single dose grinder to brew filter coffee and either the Niche Zero or Duo seem to be top choices. The start of the video made me lean towards the Zero for less popcorning but you then said it's not good for filter coffee so I assume the Duo with filter burrs would be the best option for me?
Absolutely the Duo with filters burrs if you like filter coffee. No question at all there
About popcorning: Place something like a lid upon the beans. If it's flexible, you can even use it as a small bellows (if you like). I use a silicone lid that was made to cover open cans, works perfectly. And there is also something specially designed for it by the 'Introvert'.
@@Martin-i8o8n I ended up getting the Breville Smart Grinder Pro and it has no popcorning issues at all and I've been very happy with it. Works both for single dose or filling the hopper.
@@aabsc Great, be fine with and enjoy what you have! Coffee matters most. I ended up getting the Niche Duo and after some alignment I am more than happy with it (sold my Niche Zero). Popcorning is not an issue here in reality. And if that bothers you a bit, you can simply put a silicone lid on it, with which you can then blow out the small rest at the end.
I've always wondered why some reviewers and user get near zero retention from the Niche while others have to drop the lid/tap the top/rock the grinder to get up to 0.5g of grinds out.
Being spot on and missing 0.5g is DRASTICALLY different, and it makes you wonder about Niche's manufacturing tolerances~~~
And kudos to you for being the only one that's willing to point out the fact that changing burrs between drinks on a daily basis is unrealistic, a point other reviewers either didn't grasp or, more likely, weren't willing to discuss.
@@lilteyang Can you taste the difference of 0.5g?
This confuses me a bit too, but I have genuinely never had a dose be more than 0.2g more or less than what I’ve put in. Except for the first one or two after cleaning. With or without RDT.
@@persianwingmanFor filter, it will be a pretty minor difference, but perhaps still noticeable in comparative tasting if you know what you're looking for. In espresso, it will absolutely make a difference. Because the coffee-to-water ratio is so high, pretty much any small tweak in your recipe is going to manifest as a significant change.
@@bm-br3go You must have the taste buds of an angel if you think you can taste the difference of 0.5g of coffee 😅
Give it a go with a blind taste test and see for yourself.
I cannot really follow your conclusion. You said no one would change the burrs between drinks, in my opinion you are absolutely right. Furthermore you mentioned the popcorn effect, in my opinion a no-go for a single dose grinder that should work very precise. Last but not least, the DUO is bigger and more expensive. My clear decision would be to buy the Zero.
You can now buy the grinder with only one burrset, so the first point is now solved. Popcorning will always occur, this grinder just doesn’t have a cover (nothing to do with precision)
The most important aspect is grind quality, and that is where the Duo will beat the Zero by a wide margin. Whether you’re using for filter or espresso.
@@LifestyleLab_ Humph. Why is this in the comments here and not in the video? Comparison of grind quality between Niche Duo and Zero was missing there. Considering espresso, what did you like better about the Duo? Would be interesting to know!
(Unlike James Hoffmann, I don't think there are no noticeable differences in the cup. By the way, I think that he has generalized this too much in his somewhat striking presentation)
Literally a whole section on this at 8:02
@@LifestyleLab_ Not really. For espresso, you only say there that you prefer the Niche Duo to the X54. No words about Niche Duo vs. Zero when it comes to espresso
The Niche Zero is a very fines heavy grinder. Borderline unusable for filter, very body forward for espresso, not really suited to lighter roasts.
The espresso burr set on the Duo, while not clarity monsters, gave a more clean presentation that suited are roast levels well.
Seems like a good summary to me :)
I only drink espresso and was stuck between a kinu hand grinder vs niche .. I know we're comparing conical vs flat but at this level of my rabbit hole I was able to swallow the price point of a Kinu... What do you say? In for a penny and in for a pound and just go for the niche or kinu is as good as they say and will make me a very happy espresso drinker for few years?....
Hand grinding for espresso is great in theory, but most will get tired of it VERY quickly. It’s genuinely a lot of work, even on a tabletop grinder like the HG-1, let alone a handheld grinder. I would go with the Niche all day long for that reason alone.
Was about to say the same thing. I started with a jx-pro and then bought the eureka oro much later. Handgrinding for espresso is ok once in a while, but too much work if u're going to do it everyday. Single/double dose and roast levels becomes important factors, especially during dialling in. I normally use the jx for french press and oro for espresso, with the occasional espresso on jx for comparison or when i'm in the tinkering mood.
Took me three years to get bored of hand-grinding - once I started making coffee for other people, that’s what pushed me towards an electric grinder.
@@decky1990 3 years haha I'd say that's worth it...
Is the low motor going to be an issue if installing SSP burrs
What exactly do you mean by low motor?
Regardless, no, there is no issue installing SSP burrs into the Duo
I heard the motor of the Duo is not very powerful like the DF83 for instance. And I know that installing SSP burrs will require more power from the motor. So just wondering if it’s going to affect the grinder performance?
There is a huge difference in torque on a direct drive motor and a reduced gear driven grinder, I think that’s why the duo don’t have any problems even if it has less power.
@@Trevtardius Plus lower rpm will give you probably less fines (but needs more time)
That +/- 0.2g is wholly dependant on your air humidity and how hard you tip- and bang it back down to knock out the leftovers. Also +1 to up the framerate. 24 is way too low these days. Feels like watching a slideshow
No banging or tipping has ever been required in my experience, otherwise I would have mentioned it 🤷🏻♂️
@@LifestyleLab_ hence "dependant on your air humidity"
Edit: and - Thanks for the review! :)
What’s the relationship between humidity and retention? More humidity = more retention? Or lower humidity = more static = more retention? I live in a very dry area so I’m curious.
@@grahamhawes7089 Where I live the humidity is really low so the static gets pretty bad. I can imagine it's the same on the other end too, though. That if the air humidity is really high there could also be more retention. Anyway, this is nitpicking. If I lost my Zero tomorrow, I would buy another one, no hesitation 😊
Another excellent video--thanks!
I make pour over during the week, and only make espresso on the weekends when I have the time. Would the duo be a good choice for someone like me? Other option is the Df64 variable for both or Ode gen 2 for filter, and maybe the new sk40 conical for espresso only. Thanks, and keep up the great videos.
I think that your use case does make sense for the Duo. Take a good look at the real time example of changing the burrs I did, and just be honest with yourself if that’s something you’re willing to do twice a week. If it is, then I think this is the unicorn grinder for you :) the changeover really is impressive. After filming this video, I popped the espresso burrs back in, put it back to the grind setting I had previously, and my shot came out perfectly first try despite messing around with the grinder in studio for a week
Hey im in the market for one of these 2 grinders. im not sure if I should just go for the duo and pay a little extra or if its not even that worth it. I have a brief grasp on the flavour profiles but typically i like medium roasts and chocolatey creamy bodies. What would be your suggestion out of the 2 grinders?
If you have any interest at all in brewing methods outside of espresso, then go with the duo. The grinding quality is superior all around. With that being said, if your budget is very tight and you do just like darker richer espressos then you will be happy with the niche zero
Thanks for the prompt response. I'm almost an espresso maximalist so no intention for other brewing methods. I just want to be able to brew the "best" espresso@@LifestyleLab_
Does the Niche stop automatically after you finish grinding or time control? Or would you have to stand next to it like a assembly line worker flipping switches up and down?
There is no auto stop or time control on the Niche
With the greatest of respect, the lid is not made of plastic and the hinges are not weak! The lid is polycarbonate, the same material police riot shields are made of and have you ever actually heard of a hinge breaking. Having been testing the Duo since October last year, I did not find pop corning to be an issue. Yes, it does happen (a little) but so what?
As an engineer I absolutely appreciate that not all plastics are created equal. However, what I was referring to is the FEEL of the lid, and that the experience does not match the price point in my opinion :)
"Polycarbonates (PC) are a group of thermoplastic polymers containing carbonate groups in their chemical structures."
@@cuprajake1 Lexan is a brand of polycarbonate. And regardless I was simply responding to the guy who said it's polycarbonate but not plastic
I have banged the hinge pin out of my Zero. But that's only happened once in a year of ownership.
Just wondering would it be possible for you to do a thorough review on the Rancilio Stile? Thanks & Cheers.
Much of the Stile's price would come down to the fact that it's for commercial use as well. For consumer, there are much better grinder options in that price range
@@LifestyleLab_ Many thanks for your prompt reply. Could you list a few of the better grinder options in order of your preference? I have a Barista Pro with a single dose hopper/bellow and although the inbuilt grinder has done a pretty good job overall and has been a good learning experience for me, it does ultimately lack grind consistency shot to shot and is quite loud in operation. I'm now wanting to improve my espresso and work flow with a more capable, grind consistent and quieter grinder for the long term. I only do espresso and prefer a more full bodied textured espresso with a little clarity and I use medium - dark roasted beans. This is where I thought the "Stile" might shine with it's lower 1200rpm in comparison to the higher rpm Eureka Magnifico and XL although I know that the type of flat burr has a big role to play. Another of my initial choices is the Niche Zero but very expensive here in Australia which also leeds me to my indecision between Conical vs Flat for my preferred espresso taste profile? I'd really appreciate your feedback. Thanks.
I think that looking at the Niche Duo or DF83 are excellent choices for single dosing. For hopper-fed, the Eureka Specialita / Magnifico or Mahlkonig X54
@@LifestyleLab_ Sorry, did you mean Niche Zero? Cheers.
Niche Duo, the video we’re commenting on :)
I drink about 4 coffees every day. Two pour overs, two espressos. I can't imagine changing grinders every time. For me, this product is not justified.
It is a lazy design.
i woooooooooooood like to see you use it?
為什麼繁體中文翻譯字幕缺失？
This thing is huge
Still smaller than a DF83 or P100!
I have no complaints with my zero. I'd love to have a DUO to keep my coffee bar looking good. Any one have one to donate? lol.
Its totally false that the niche doesnt require a bellows, and its frustrating that no mainstream reviews mention the reality. I own a niche zero, and can tell you that smashing the plastic lid down numerous times after grinding is an essential part of the "perfect workflow" to fall into the 0.1-0.2g retention range. At that point, a bellows would actually be a quieter and less abrasive solution...
That has never been remotely essential on either of my grinders. If it were, I would mention it. Perhaps time for a grinder cleaning??
I turn the grinder on, turn it off, and weigh the output. These IS still exchange with this grinder (as mentioned), but the dose in vs yield out has always been within honestly 0.1g without fail and without any grinder beating
My Zero is a year old and I still see zero retention...and I haven't cleaned it either😊
Do you use rdt? When I forget to Rdt with my zero, I have more retention just as you describe. But with Rdt I do not need to knock the grinder to get everything out.
Almost every time I take the cup, I find a small amount of ground coffee that felt inside.
I agree that closing the lid several times make some ground coffee fall. However that's not critical as it seems consistent, so I don't bother doing it. The first step of my workflow is just to dump the small amount of ground coffee that felt inside the cup
@weetbixiron can you taste the difference?
ugh...they should've really updated the design, pass for me...
Lol what?! the design is exactly what made the niche the king of single dose home espresso grinders for so many years
This feels like a Niche paid advertising. Would have loved if you would have addressed some of the cons (impossible that a nearly 1000 dollar grinder has only popcorn effect as a con.
What other cons are there? Should I have invented some?
My reviews are always straightforward and honest. If you watch multiple, that is very clear
@@LifestyleLab_ so other than pocorning you have NO other issues??? Just want to be sure, some people mention retention and poor customer support stateside. I didn’t mean to come off like a dick although reading my comment I guess I did 😂 it’s just that deciding on the grinder has been a project. I swear I got my smoker easier (and that was a soul searching process within itself). For a 500-700 dollar budget, espresso lover, what grinder or brand would you recommend? I was zeroing in on eureka and now I’m not sure 🤔
@mannyr8795 personally I have gotten PERFECT single dosing from both of my Niche grinders. Other downside I mentioned and standby is the lid. It feels cheap and is loud opening and closing. Not matching the overall price point of the grinder. So biggest general complaints:
- Dated design
- Cheap Lid
- WAY more messy than the zero due to popcorning
@@LifestyleLab_ so any other grinder you recommend for someone like me? 500-700 budget, espresso lover (don’t care for switching to pour over grinds). I was looking at the eureka zero vs the oro mignon… Help 😂
@mannyr8795 for single dosing can also definitely consider the DF64 or DF83 but ONLY the Gen 2 variants
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Imagine spending $701 on a grinder for home use.
Why is that so shocking to you?
@@LifestyleLab_ If you are coming from your home appliance store, you are thinking in the world of Krups & Co.
i really dont understand why people keep saying workflow... u turn it on, it grinds beans... if it's too course or fine, you change it... people who make coffee must be a bunch of morons that it needs some kind of workflow to operate a grinder
Thanks for the rudely presented insight Peter…
The process can vary a lot actually. For example, are you using a hopper fed machine that grinds by time? Are you single dosing? Do you need to use bellows or a knocker to get out all the coffee? Do you grind from a hopper fed machine and then weight the portafilter after and add/subtract coffee to each your desired dose?
@@LifestyleLab_ it's all the same workflow doesn't matter which machine you use for single dose...
step 1: you weight you bean, RDT
step 2: you pour into the grinder machine
step 3: you flip the switch
step 4: you use hopper, knocker, bello whatever to take out the grinds that are stuck.
step 5: you turn off your grider
Doesn't matter which grinder you choose. For a single dose, it the same steps, same workflow.
If you make a big deal of fine tuning your grind setting or whether it's bellos or kocker, I can't help you and I can only tell that you're a really high maintenance person.
@@LifestyleLab_ It's the same workflow whichever machine you choose. The only thing matters is that if it makes that difference and makes your coffee taste a lot better than others
So if it takes you an extra minute to weigh out the correct dose, that doesn’t matter??
@@LifestyleLab_ that extra minute isn't anything extra, that is indeed part of my steps. I would do that whether it is a single dose grinder or any other grinder with a hopper. got it??? Regardless of which grinder, my "workflow" is the same!
The frame rate hurts my eyes man, you should consider increasing it because it looks choppy and unprofessional
Unfortunately that’s likely just you monitor or computer not displaying 24fps properly. I can’t fix that 😕
The cinematic in between shots are amazing, really gorgeous. It's just the way you tend to move a lot when you talk your hands look very choppy.
You sound like the game of thrones editor about that night time scene "it's not dark on my monitor" lmao.
Good video overall, it's just that it can be much less distracting at 30 fps or more.
@@snapphanen Nah mate, this is completely a "you" issue. no chopping or harshness here. dont blame this guy for your shitty monitor/pc. Also just dont be weirdo in general lol. complaining about frame rate on a grinder review. jesus mate haha.
no professional would ever say this. get back to twitch.
@@snapphanen I've never experienced this on any of the 5 different screen options i have. I think it's you.