It would be more accurate to say has a "secular country" ever worked since Atheism is just "I don't believe in a god or gods". A country can't "believe" in anything. That being said, then YES secular countries DO work. Modern examples of secular countries are: Japan, Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Vietnam. Technically the USA is a secular country, according to the US Constitution, but religion is strongly influencing politics here. Some would argue for the worse.
What is a secular country? Just one with a majority secular population? A country with no or little mention of God in its founding documents? What if a country’s history is soaked in religious ideals, then gradually transitions to a majority secular population over time? Can it still really be called a nation based on “secular principles”?
It seems the question is not whether secular societies have ever existed, the question is whether they last or deteriorate over centuries? How do they generate cohesion, solve moral quandaries, etc?
I want to point out that there is not enough data on this because the western countries you are describing and Japan- Vietnam have been non religious for a short time I'd say the western countries if you want to be charitable since the 60s and Japan since the end of World war 2 (because their emperor was a deity or something close). The pattern of all these countries minus Vietnam because I don't know:the Baby Born rate has plummeted especially, people are depr$$ed( this is particularly true in Japan where people live in saad apartments and work themselves to unalive), people in the west start to believe in new things that replaces it ega1itarianism, hed0nism and n1hilism and, we have no values that unify our society, our language seems to be abstracted to the degree where we can't agree on basic definitions like woman and man, men commit suicide and have less feelings of purpose in their lives, no one are having babies because modern "culture " is implying that humans are unnecasary and should collectively seize to be. And yes I believe this is the result of a secular culture
awkwardly the countries you mention were not founded as Secular nations. They were originally religious nations or held deities/idols until a more recent time in history. And if you look at the points in history since abandoning religious or idol culture, their social cohesion, happiness rates, birth rates etc have all fallen since. So you could argue they don't work by the same vein. More data would be needed, but we don't have a control group of a country who has been founded on non-religious practice and cohesion and thrived... because it hasn't happened.
@@TryinBin8889 Actually No, Japan was not founded by religion, but Shinto, an indigenous religion, dates back to the beginning of Japan's history. Vietnam was not founded by religion, but many religions have influenced the country's culture and history. Denmark was founded during the Viking Age and was Christianized in 965 CE. Sweden was also not founded by religion, but like much like Vietnam has been influenced by religions. Since they moved away from being "overly" religious their societal health has improved. Metrics include general health of the populace, number of people in prisons, etc. As a country becomes more religious, we see the opposite.
I think this starts out as a poor question - what is a 'civilizational level'? It really lends itself to shifting the goalpost if I point out a civilization that developed without belief in a god. Note - Alex talks about religion and founding myths, but neither of those require a god, and I think it is a stretch to assume that every group of 100 people that would be put on a deserted island would form a religion de novo. I don't think there is any basis for that assertion.
Religions tend to believe they have an absolute monopoly on righteousness and truth. Those terms, to them, are godly qualities, with their specific god being the absolute embodiment of both. So anything outside of their cult is deemed wicked and deceitful. Allowing secularism is the same to them as allowing evil, because their cult would no longer have absolute rule. Of course, most religious people will not flat out admit any of this, because it doesn't make them look quite as good as they want to appear. It thrives on keeping up appearances, after all. But religion is inherently oppressive and hates to be examined objectively, because that façade of tolerance and kindness it likes to hide behind will crumble as fast as can be expected from something that is built upon mountains of lies. Religion has only ever been a tool to control the masses. Interestingly, the more a religion is forced to relinquish societal control, the more hostile and ultimately violent it tends to get. As if a mask crumbles away and its true face is revealed.
Atheism freed up thinking, sharing of ideas and printing alternative views independent from old religious dogmas. All religious civilizations ultimately failed. The greatest civilization so far is based on secularism, which in turn has been driven by atheism becoming more and more common.
Secularism is not Atheism....neither is getting rid of certain religous dogmas. And the western civ, which I assume you mean with the greastest, is not based on atheism. Rather religious freedom. Also things in the west started to go down once the religous foundation started to erode. The atrocities of the 20thcent. were driven by anti religous zeal. I think one can even argue that the stern believe that there is no higher instance, is a religous motion of it´s own....
@@Enrico_Palazzo_opera_singer "The atrocities of the 20thcent. were driven by anti religous zeal." The Crusades, The Inquisition, the subjugation of the Aztec were all started because of christianity.
@thundershield I know historical knowledge isn't exactly great on your side of things typically, but damn this is historically illiterate. Think of any great civilization or empire. Guess what? There is a 99% chance your pick was a highly religious society. If you are unironically gonna argue muh they 'ultimately' failed and collapsed, once again that's historically illiterate, all societies and empires fall. That's an inevitable part of the life cycle of any civilization, including your precious secular society. Just because you are in a moment of time x society you live in hasn't collapsed yet doesn't demonstrate anything about it's success inherently, it's like a Roman living in 400 AD saying well Rome must be the greatest empire ever as it still stands while all its rivals crumbled into dust. You can replicate that sort of fallacious thinking with any society at any point in time, which would be the present for people living in it. Also what exactly is the 'greatest civilization so far' in your eyes exactly? The Modern West? When I as an outsider look at it I see nothing but a degenerate cesspool in decline. Ironically enough the height of the West, which would be the 1800s to early 1900s, happened when it was still incredibly religious as a society, where as it's decline in strength when compared to other civilizations happened around the same time as it's en mass de-Christianization. Other facts to also keep in mind are already by 1450-1500, Western Europe was the wealthiest major region on earth, far before it was atheistic or even secular. So chalking the West's historic successes to 'secularism' is over-simplification at best and factually incorrect at worst.
Yet here we are, in a civilization. Civilization seems to be working fine. You don't need some religious belief system for people to be civil. People already understand the need for cooperation. You need religion when you want to divide and conquer.
Of course it would work, there are still Charvakas in India it's been going for thousands of years. The monarchs, oligarchs, politicians and many influencial people are ones you should be talking in terms of dealing with whole civilizations.
It's working for me and everyone I interact with and know. I think Japan has a large population of non believers. There's civilizations or small tribes in the Amazon jungle that have never heard the word "god" and have never believed in a god before.
Pretending that believing in gods is necessary for a civilization to exist is just an excuse for not letting go of childish ideas that some people have become emotionally dependent on. Does not believing in Thor work at a civilizational level?
It's not pretense It's obvious repeated history Widespread irreligiousity is one of the cheif features of societies in decline From rome to arabia to persia to several chinese empires
@goyonman9655 so it doesn't matter if the religion is true. It seems silly to argue that society works better with false beliefs. A secular humanist society has never been tried
@@davidspencer343 When did I say religion was not true??? When did I advocate false beliefs? The fact that atheism can only parasitise on already built civilisations and never build one is evidence it is more false than most false beliefs
@@goyonman9655 I meant a society apparently doesn't need one specific religion. Alot of religions work and they can't all be true. So it's not about truth
No, you simply cannot have civilization without an appeal to the transcendent however accurate or inaccurate it may be. If you remove said appeal the civilization then collapses at varying rates largely dependant on adherence to traditionalism.. but they all inevitability collapse in on themselves.
@wills9392 I disagree, but I'd be willing to believe no culture can develop without superstitions, things we cannot explain are where legends are born.
@@dienekes4364 Why does it matter to you at all, me believing in such bullshit? When in fact according to your worldview there is no meaning or value inherent to existence. Your very thoughts, words, and action are entirely worthless in the scope of reality as it is, a pathetic and tormented yelp into nothingness from which you became and will return. Do you wish to continue?
A secular humanist society has never been tried. If any religion works then it doesnt matter if its true. Its argueing that society only works when you have false beleifs. Its silly
Communism hasn't worked because it's only existed under totalitarian regimes. I would like to see an example of it run differently. Meanwhile current form of capitalism most of us live under tends to push individualism to an unhealthy degree. Everyone out for themselves, in one big rat race. Looking at the evidence, religious people seem to be happier because they have a sense of community. They meet regularly, and work together for their greater good. Atheists don't tend to have that much interaction with their communities, tending to be lonelier, and lacking the support to fall back on you have in a religious community. You have work, and home, and maybe the bar or a club. It can get rather bleak. Of course there are exceptions for both sides but that seems to be the average. And as a person raised religious that later identified atheist, it fit my experience.
@@Puzzles-Pins The totalitarian regime thing, I think we pretty safely can say that it's not a bug but a feature, and families usually are communist or something close, but the model does not scale well.
@@grantb6732 I'm sceptical that they actually worked if you think deeper about it. They may have worked for a certain group of people and in the sense that they were stable. But I'd argue they were stably bad other than that. What would be such an empire that you'd say has worked?
The Holy Roman Empire was explicitly Christian. So was the Byzantine Empire. The Ottoman Empire experienced periods of dominance as a Muslim Empire. China was a majority Confucian Empire for stretches of its history (along with other religious movements). The ancient Roman Empire was religious; it’s people regularly worshipped at shrines, kept images of gods in their homes, and worshipped at temples and in regular ceremonies. (I could say the same thing about the Greek Empire.) The United States is a religious country (even if you don’t think it is currently, it certainly has been in the past). The British Empire was religious, explicitly establishing its own religion under the Church of England. Every major continental European country has been mired in religion at some point in its history, France, Italy, Germany/ Prussia, Austria, etc. Russia used to be committed to Orthodoxy. The Egyptian Empire had its own mythology and religious practices. India has long worshipped Hinduism. The ancient Babylonian Empire was religious. The Israelites in ancient times were obviously religious. I could go on, but frankly if none of the aforementioned countries can be considered successful, than no civilization can be considered successful.
@@cupofcoffee4251 Also, just so we can do a trade off here, what non-religious countries do you believe to be successful. This will give me a better idea of what you mean by a civilization “working”.
@@grantb6732 I'm not denying there were many religious empires and countries. My problem is more with the term "working". I'd say that the countries you mentioned weren't really working beyond existing and providing wealth and power for the eilite. Besides that, most people in these countries were poor, war was considered a normal activity of states, human rights were a complete desaster and there was no participation for normal people. The US might have been different in many aspects, but there was still slavery and women couldn't vote in the beginning. Something that especially the church didn't want to change. I mean, would you like to travel back in time to spend your life in one of the countries you mentioned? I'm sure I wouldn't want to. A working civilization would be the US after the civil rights movement or Japan or European countries. Those aren't perfect either, but "working" doesn't require perfection for me. But those countries before 1700 before the enlightment, those were definitly not working.
Japan is a prime example of an atheist civilization. China as well but Japan is a stable, free society with decent infrastructure. China also is an economic powerhouse and technologically advancing but it has an oppressive communist government so I wouldn't write it as a good aethist civilization. Japan on the other hand is.
@@zahubshahid7944 Iceland is less than half a million people. I consider it as a micro country but yeah an atheist civilization still working. I don't know much about Estonia.
How much do you know about China? People in the west tend to just say things about countries they know nothing about and just make assumptions based on their political ideologies they've been force-fed since childhood.
It's working for me and everyone I interact with and know. I think Japan has a large population of non believers. There's civilizations or small tribes in the Amazon jungle that have never heard the word "god" and have never believed in a god before.
Japan also has an horrendous self deletion rate, and is beginning to experience population collapse just like many secular areas of the west. Amazonian tribes hardly count as civil society.
@@wills9392 Did you know that countries with the highest population of believers also have the highest percentage of people in prison? Statistics also show that populations with the most believers also have the highest divorce rate. Go figure that my friend!
It would be more accurate to say has a "secular country" ever worked since Atheism is just "I don't believe in a god or gods". A country can't "believe" in anything.
That being said, then YES secular countries DO work. Modern examples of secular countries are: Japan, Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Vietnam. Technically the USA is a secular country, according to the US Constitution, but religion is strongly influencing politics here. Some would argue for the worse.
What is a secular country? Just one with a majority secular population? A country with no or little mention of God in its founding documents?
What if a country’s history is soaked in religious ideals, then gradually transitions to a majority secular population over time? Can it still really be called a nation based on “secular principles”?
It seems the question is not whether secular societies have ever existed, the question is whether they last or deteriorate over centuries? How do they generate cohesion, solve moral quandaries, etc?
I want to point out that there is not enough data on this because the western countries you are describing and Japan- Vietnam have been non religious for a short time I'd say the western countries if you want to be charitable since the 60s and Japan since the end of World war 2 (because their emperor was a deity or something close). The pattern of all these countries minus Vietnam because I don't know:the Baby Born rate has plummeted especially, people are depr$$ed( this is particularly true in Japan where people live in saad apartments and work themselves to unalive), people in the west start to believe in new things that replaces it ega1itarianism, hed0nism and n1hilism and, we have no values that unify our society, our language seems to be abstracted to the degree where we can't agree on basic definitions like woman and man, men commit suicide and have less feelings of purpose in their lives, no one are having babies because modern "culture " is implying that humans are unnecasary and should collectively seize to be. And yes I believe this is the result of a secular culture
awkwardly the countries you mention were not founded as Secular nations. They were originally religious nations or held deities/idols until a more recent time in history. And if you look at the points in history since abandoning religious or idol culture, their social cohesion, happiness rates, birth rates etc have all fallen since. So you could argue they don't work by the same vein. More data would be needed, but we don't have a control group of a country who has been founded on non-religious practice and cohesion and thrived... because it hasn't happened.
@@TryinBin8889 Actually No, Japan was not founded by religion, but Shinto, an indigenous religion, dates back to the beginning of Japan's history. Vietnam was not founded by religion, but many religions have influenced the country's culture and history. Denmark was founded during the Viking Age and was Christianized in 965 CE. Sweden was also not founded by religion, but like much like Vietnam has been influenced by religions.
Since they moved away from being "overly" religious their societal health has improved. Metrics include general health of the populace, number of people in prisons, etc. As a country becomes more religious, we see the opposite.
I think this starts out as a poor question - what is a 'civilizational level'? It really lends itself to shifting the goalpost if I point out a civilization that developed without belief in a god.
Note - Alex talks about religion and founding myths, but neither of those require a god, and I think it is a stretch to assume that every group of 100 people that would be put on a deserted island would form a religion de novo. I don't think there is any basis for that assertion.
Religions tend to believe they have an absolute monopoly on righteousness and truth. Those terms, to them, are godly qualities, with their specific god being the absolute embodiment of both. So anything outside of their cult is deemed wicked and deceitful. Allowing secularism is the same to them as allowing evil, because their cult would no longer have absolute rule.
Of course, most religious people will not flat out admit any of this, because it doesn't make them look quite as good as they want to appear. It thrives on keeping up appearances, after all. But religion is inherently oppressive and hates to be examined objectively, because that façade of tolerance and kindness it likes to hide behind will crumble as fast as can be expected from something that is built upon mountains of lies. Religion has only ever been a tool to control the masses. Interestingly, the more a religion is forced to relinquish societal control, the more hostile and ultimately violent it tends to get. As if a mask crumbles away and its true face is revealed.
Atheism freed up thinking, sharing of ideas and printing alternative views independent from old religious dogmas.
All religious civilizations ultimately failed.
The greatest civilization so far is based on secularism, which in turn has been driven by atheism becoming more and more common.
I agree. I don't think it's a coincidence that the US became so powerful (given the fact that it was the first secular state).
Interesting how all the successful countries have adopted secularism…
Secularism is not Atheism....neither is getting rid of certain religous dogmas.
And the western civ, which I assume you mean with the greastest, is not based on atheism. Rather religious freedom.
Also things in the west started to go down once the religous foundation started to erode.
The atrocities of the 20thcent. were driven by anti religous zeal.
I think one can even argue that the stern believe that there is no higher instance, is a religous motion of it´s own....
@@Enrico_Palazzo_opera_singer "The atrocities of the 20thcent. were driven by anti religous zeal." The Crusades, The Inquisition, the subjugation of the Aztec were all started because of christianity.
@thundershield I know historical knowledge isn't exactly great on your side of things typically, but damn this is historically illiterate. Think of any great civilization or empire. Guess what? There is a 99% chance your pick was a highly religious society. If you are unironically gonna argue muh they 'ultimately' failed and collapsed, once again that's historically illiterate, all societies and empires fall. That's an inevitable part of the life cycle of any civilization, including your precious secular society. Just because you are in a moment of time x society you live in hasn't collapsed yet doesn't demonstrate anything about it's success inherently, it's like a Roman living in 400 AD saying well Rome must be the greatest empire ever as it still stands while all its rivals crumbled into dust. You can replicate that sort of fallacious thinking with any society at any point in time, which would be the present for people living in it.
Also what exactly is the 'greatest civilization so far' in your eyes exactly? The Modern West? When I as an outsider look at it I see nothing but a degenerate cesspool in decline. Ironically enough the height of the West, which would be the 1800s to early 1900s, happened when it was still incredibly religious as a society, where as it's decline in strength when compared to other civilizations happened around the same time as it's en mass de-Christianization. Other facts to also keep in mind are already by 1450-1500, Western Europe was the wealthiest major region on earth, far before it was atheistic or even secular. So chalking the West's historic successes to 'secularism' is over-simplification at best and factually incorrect at worst.
Yet here we are, in a civilization. Civilization seems to be working fine. You don't need some religious belief system for people to be civil. People already understand the need for cooperation. You need religion when you want to divide and conquer.
Of course it would work, there are still Charvakas in India it's been going for thousands of years. The monarchs, oligarchs, politicians and many influencial people are ones you should be talking in terms of dealing with whole civilizations.
It's working for me and everyone I interact with and know. I think Japan has a large population of non believers. There's civilizations or small tribes in the Amazon jungle that have never heard the word "god" and have never believed in a god before.
They are called the Piraha people (the atheist tribe in the Amazon).
@@maks3964 "They are called the Piraha people" thank you.
"It's working for me"
It's not working for America
America is declining in porpotion with it's atheism
Atheism has never been implemented in a civilization level. The future will most likely see this and these societies will be better.
Pretending that believing in gods is necessary for a civilization to exist is just an excuse for not letting go of childish ideas that some people have become emotionally dependent on.
Does not believing in Thor work at a civilizational level?
It's not pretense
It's obvious repeated history
Widespread irreligiousity is one of the cheif features of societies in decline
From rome to arabia to persia to several chinese empires
@goyonman9655 so it doesn't matter if the religion is true. It seems silly to argue that society works better with false beliefs. A secular humanist society has never been tried
@@davidspencer343
When did I say religion was not true???
When did I advocate false beliefs?
The fact that atheism can only parasitise on already built civilisations and never build one is evidence it is more false than most false beliefs
@@goyonman9655 I meant a society apparently doesn't need one specific religion. Alot of religions work and they can't all be true. So it's not about truth
@@davidspencer343
Of course all religions can't be true
But atheism is definitely false
The truth cannot be permanently parasitic on falsehoods
No, you simply cannot have civilization without an appeal to the transcendent however accurate or inaccurate it may be. If you remove said appeal the civilization then collapses at varying rates largely dependant on adherence to traditionalism.. but they all inevitability collapse in on themselves.
@wills9392
I disagree, but I'd be willing to believe no culture can develop without superstitions, things we cannot explain are where legends are born.
You must live such a sad life, firmly believing in absolute bullshit without a shred of evidence to support your superstitions.
@@dienekes4364 Why does it matter to you at all, me believing in such bullshit? When in fact according to your worldview there is no meaning or value inherent to existence. Your very thoughts, words, and action are entirely worthless in the scope of reality as it is, a pathetic and tormented yelp into nothingness from which you became and will return. Do you wish to continue?
yet, we persist..
A secular humanist society has never been tried. If any religion works then it doesnt matter if its true. Its argueing that society only works when you have false beleifs. Its silly
Communism hasn't worked because it's only existed under totalitarian regimes. I would like to see an example of it run differently.
Meanwhile current form of capitalism most of us live under tends to push individualism to an unhealthy degree. Everyone out for themselves, in one big rat race.
Looking at the evidence, religious people seem to be happier because they have a sense of community. They meet regularly, and work together for their greater good. Atheists don't tend to have that much interaction with their communities, tending to be lonelier, and lacking the support to fall back on you have in a religious community. You have work, and home, and maybe the bar or a club. It can get rather bleak.
Of course there are exceptions for both sides but that seems to be the average. And as a person raised religious that later identified atheist, it fit my experience.
@@Puzzles-Pins The totalitarian regime thing, I think we pretty safely can say that it's not a bug but a feature, and families usually are communist or something close, but the model does not scale well.
Yes. It’s called secularism
Has religion ever worked on a civilizational level?
Yes. I could site almost any empire prior to the 1700s.
@@grantb6732 I'm sceptical that they actually worked if you think deeper about it. They may have worked for a certain group of people and in the sense that they were stable. But I'd argue they were stably bad other than that. What would be such an empire that you'd say has worked?
The Holy Roman Empire was explicitly Christian. So was the Byzantine Empire. The Ottoman Empire experienced periods of dominance as a Muslim Empire. China was a majority Confucian Empire for stretches of its history (along with other religious movements). The ancient Roman Empire was religious; it’s people regularly worshipped at shrines, kept images of gods in their homes, and worshipped at temples and in regular ceremonies. (I could say the same thing about the Greek Empire.) The United States is a religious country (even if you don’t think it is currently, it certainly has been in the past). The British Empire was religious, explicitly establishing its own religion under the Church of England. Every major continental European country has been mired in religion at some point in its history, France, Italy, Germany/ Prussia, Austria, etc. Russia used to be committed to Orthodoxy. The Egyptian Empire had its own mythology and religious practices. India has long worshipped Hinduism. The ancient Babylonian Empire was religious. The Israelites in ancient times were obviously religious.
I could go on, but frankly if none of the aforementioned countries can be considered successful, than no civilization can be considered successful.
@@cupofcoffee4251 Also, just so we can do a trade off here, what non-religious countries do you believe to be successful. This will give me a better idea of what you mean by a civilization “working”.
@@grantb6732 I'm not denying there were many religious empires and countries. My problem is more with the term "working". I'd say that the countries you mentioned weren't really working beyond existing and providing wealth and power for the eilite. Besides that, most people in these countries were poor, war was considered a normal activity of states, human rights were a complete desaster and there was no participation for normal people.
The US might have been different in many aspects, but there was still slavery and women couldn't vote in the beginning. Something that especially the church didn't want to change.
I mean, would you like to travel back in time to spend your life in one of the countries you mentioned? I'm sure I wouldn't want to.
A working civilization would be the US after the civil rights movement or Japan or European countries. Those aren't perfect either, but "working" doesn't require perfection for me. But those countries before 1700 before the enlightment, those were definitly not working.
Japan is a prime example of an atheist civilization. China as well but Japan is a stable, free society with decent infrastructure. China also is an economic powerhouse and technologically advancing but it has an oppressive communist government so I wouldn't write it as a good aethist civilization. Japan on the other hand is.
Same with Iceland and Estonia
@@zahubshahid7944 Iceland is less than half a million people. I consider it as a micro country but yeah an atheist civilization still working. I don't know much about Estonia.
How much do you know about China?
People in the west tend to just say things about countries they know nothing about and just make assumptions based on their political ideologies they've been force-fed since childhood.
It's working for me and everyone I interact with and know. I think Japan has a large population of non believers. There's civilizations or small tribes in the Amazon jungle that have never heard the word "god" and have never believed in a god before.
Japan is not atheist…
Japan also has an horrendous self deletion rate, and is beginning to experience population collapse just like many secular areas of the west. Amazonian tribes hardly count as civil society.
That doesn't count because the japanese constitution is heavily based on American ideology which has nothing to do with atheism
@@wills9392 Did you know that countries with the highest population of believers also have the highest percentage of people in prison? Statistics also show that populations with the most believers also have the highest divorce rate. Go figure that my friend!
@@gofish7388 "Japan is not atheist…" I didn't say it was my friend. Good luck.