This is such great information! I was married to a narcissist for 33 years. Very controlling and I felt like I was walking on eggshells most of the time. I had few friends and was isolated and managed. I'm 70 years old and 15 years after divorce, I'm finally finding my true self. It feels so good. Thank you for sharing your wisdom, Steven.
It's been eight years for me. I'm still walking on eggshells even though he's not here! I still struggle most every day even though I did find myself and who I am however, I do speak to him he lives in another state I know I am trauma bonding I need to get over it! I know what I'm doing and it is affecting me however I still keep on doing it by talking to him! I went to therapist that specialized in trauma however, she did not have a clue about narcissism! It was as though I was the therapist and have to explain everything to her!
@@winros That’s wild! A lot of trauma comes from narcissism. Many leaders of churches and CEOs of businesses are narcissists. That’s how they can step on people on the way to the top and not care. I read a lot of stories about people who met general authorities in the church, I was stunned by the amount of narcissistic attitudes they had towards us pee-ons.
@@katbos4995 at the end of the day, they are the most insecure people that you will ever meet! They put you down to make themselves look better or feel better about themselves! They are nothing but bullies! I don't Hold my tongue anymore! I will Nip it right in the bud when I feel someone is being disrespectful to me! I'm back having no contact with him I just can't do it anymore it's destroying me! I just hope I can keep my stance! You give people a little bit of power and it goes right to their heads! That is a tactic used while in the church! You give someone a little power and by doing that you'll be able to control more of that person! I have to look that up again! ✌🏼✌🏼✌🏼 Thank you for replying! ✌🏼
@@winrosplease for your own mental health, you need to cut off all relationship. Narcissists can still control you even from afar. I choose not to have any relationship with him and it has been for the better.
These two episodes with Dr Hassan move immediately to the front of the line. This is some of the most important work ever done on MSP. It was super helpful to me to hear and see Dr Hassan demonstrate the tools he's developed and the techniques he's learned. He's beautiful, and I'm so grateful. Also, totally loved his moments when he audibly sounded the "alert" on some super red flags in LDS doctrine, leadership and culture. Thank you all!
Agreed! Reading Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control by Luna Lindsey is also SO HELPFUL when leaving the church! It puts everything Lipton and Hassan teach into the Mormon context. It was a GAME CHANGER for my wife and I when processing our faith transition
This is one of my top 5 impactful episodes to date. I had a visceral reaction listening to the red flags. Having Dr. Hassan share that it's ok to leave for any reason- is a radical mind shift for me. For the past few years I've tried so hard to defend my choice to walk away and I cannot tell you how much peace I feel and how truly it resonated to hear that I can leave for any reason I want. Only a cult makes you feel otherwise. Thank you for this insightful and helpful episode!
We seem to feel the need to have had tons of studying before we feel we have a “right” to leave. That’s why it’s so disingenuous for the “profit” to call us lazy learners. We did a ton more research on our exits, than any other time in the cult. I snapped awake in 1998. I had to feel my face, the walls, the bed, and make a mental list of the things I knew to be true. My reality had been broken. What woke me? I was reading the book of Romans from start to finish, which the church to this day skips most of in Sunday school (I looked in my TBM mom’s SS manual). I went and got a masters in divinity MDiv. They told us there was a huge drop out rate when we started. We were all excited to hear the proofs of Jesus and the apostles. They waited until the 3rd year to tell us there were zero proofs. It’s all assumptions of who may have written which books. And there was zero proof of Jesus’ existence. I was attending the #2 online divinity university in the USA. I went through more loss at that point. I decided to only believe what I experienced when I died in childbirth: I met a Being of Light that accepted me unconditionally and was only concerned about how much I loved others and myself (I had a lot of self hate for being a closeted gay person 🏳️🌈). Being married in the temple, having straight sex, being very Molly Mormon didn’t turn me straight. The Being of Light I met wasn’t concerned about man-made religion. Only about Love ❤and kindness.
Whoever "taught" you there was "zero proof of Jesus's existence" was critically mistaken. Apparently, that broke the protection you did have, allowing this 'being of light' (which Satan is known to masquerade as.) into your mind and soul.. Glad you broke free of Moroni LTD, but I pray you keep searching til you're truly free!
Im several years into deconstruction and actually need to speak more positively about my faith journey and how proud of myself for taking the steps I have.
I went through intensive counseling with Bob & Judy Pardon at Meadowhaven. Dr Hassan was quoted often by them. They literally saved my life and our marriage. Heavy handed churches, not just Mormons, have destroyed lives for years. We had a young lady raised in a polygamist group and it was so cool to see her evolve and heal. Highly recommended!
So insightful. I was married to a nonpracticing LDS/Morman for 17 years. I loved his family and they were so kind and supportive. They never pressured me or my kids from a previous marriage to convert. I cherish the years of being a part of their family. That being said, I still to this day find the culture fascinating as I do other religions. Being an atheist I find all religions wonderful and interesting from a sociological perspective.
Yes, I think people can still behave well and be loving, kind and compassionate within these cults because as Steven mentioned, it depends on how an individual responds to the cult, meaning, not all people will be as eager, for example, to be the best member they can be etc. and not all people will believe all that they’re being taught to believe.
@christineaddison6375 I appreciate Dr. Hassan and follow him to learn about cults. My maiden name is Hasson, pronounced the same way. My Grandpa Hasson was a devout Sephardic Jew. I was raised Mormon and left the church at 44 because I wanted to try a different way of life. I was lovingly excommunicated, which I completely agreed with. I was never ostracized. My dignity remained intact. I still went to church as an excommunicated member if I wanted to, and I was treated with love and acceptance by almost everyone. After experimenting and exploring a different lifestyle for about 5 years, I had an amazing dream that made me want to return. I joined the LDS church again, this time as an adult, and I've never been more spiritually happy or more free-thinking. Perhaps my journey out of the Mormon church and back in again was so incredibly loving and positive because it happened first in Alaska and concluded in New York City. If it had all occurred in Utah, maybe I would've ended up hating the church. Sorry Utah, haha. There is a belief amongst Mormons that Utah Mormons are more cultish and controlling. I don't know if it's true or not. I love the sacred, symbolic rituals of the temple. They remind me of Baptist, Jewish, and Freemason rituals. I see Jewish men and women walking around NYC in clothing VERY similar to Mormon temple clothing. Amish clothing is similar as well. I think of the temple ceremonies as only rituals with symbols representing greater spiritual truths. The ritual could be done differently, with different clothing, and still mean the same thing to me. The basic truths remain the same, but the rituals have evolved and been simplified to be more in harmony with modern times. As far as I know and imho, it's not anymore "creepy" than anything else other religions do, especially Catholics, haha. Either you like it or you don't. I agree with this podcast that it is very important to be told as much as possible about it before choosing to go and participate. I believe truth can be found everywhere you look. My beliefs may not align perfectly with every single known doctrine of the Mormon church, but I'm fine with that, as are other church members. Some of their beliefs are even more on the outer fringe than mine, which I think is cool. I'm not perfect. The Church isn't perfect, but I find it to be a wonderful tool that brings me closer to my higher power and my own self-awareness. I am now married to a Muslim man from Turkey. We completely support each other's different faiths and delight in the similarities and the differences. I don't want my husband to join my church, ever, unless that is something he decides on his own. I join him in Islamic prayers and fasting for Ramadan, headscarf and all! Sometimes he attends church with me, especially if I'm giving a talk. We pray together every day and believe we are praying to the same god, whether we call god Heavenly Father or Allah. I believe in finding spirituality wherever a person can find the most joy! I don't care if you are Wiccan, atheist, Hindu, Druid, Baptist, whatever. I would hope that whatever you believe, your driving forces are love, human rights, and respect for others who are different than yourself. If there is one thing I would dearly love to change about the LDS church, it would be to tone down the missionary program. I agree with this podcast that before a person joins the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, they need to be fully aware of everything, the good, the bad, the beautiful, and the ugly. They need to really want it. Joining should be a difficult process with tests and sh💩t, and at least a year to think it over, just like the Jews do. Lastly, if you believe you are trapped in a cult and do not have control over your own mind, than you ARE in a cult! Get out. Go where you are happy. My biggest concern about cults are dangerous cults that teach hate. The ones that seriously brainwash and isolate people. I suppose even the definition of a dangerous cult is going to vary from person to person. I believe my brother is trapped in the dangerous cult of Trumpism and Qanon, as are many other Mormons like him. He has been mentally ill for 40 years and says he will give up his family before he gives up his loyalty to Trump. We don't even ask him to choose, so I don't know why he says (screams) that. 😢 Bismillah 🙏🧿🙏 I wish you peace ✌️ and love 💙🧿💙
So glad Dr Hassan was able to come to Utah! Sorry our high desert air was trying to choke him. I hope he got some hot tea and his voice holds through the weekend!
Whoever's doing the timestamps for these episodes is incredible!! It makes it easier to find my place if I lose it, but also gives an excellent summary of what's discussed if I want a quick recap for whatever reason, or maybe I want to reference a specific moment for myself or to show somebody else. It's perfect! 👌
I love that Dr Hassan challenged us a bit on letting go and moving on. It’s time for me. It’s also tough because many of us are still immersed in the religion and culture. There’s no way to fully leave it behind.
I read your book two decades ago. The most memorable thing that changed my life, was your anecdote of you meeting a man who was very kind to you, although you did not break free at that time. I have tried to treat cult members I encounter with as much kindness. Thank you!
Yes, the second half of this interview was reminding me so much of the book "The Body Keeps the Score," which focuses majorly on PTSD, because many of those techniques like: getting in touch with your body, desensitizing yourself to triggers, rewriting a traumatic memory, and taking back your power are discussed in the book.
Brilliant program. He is raw, and honest and charming and funny and so, so smart. Can't wait for episode 2. And, Samantha: You are so tuned in!!! Great questions. Very clear, insightful observations. Admire you very much!! John...great show. Thanks
I was fortunate early on to recognize this "locus of control" issue. It resonated deeply with me that the individual Mormon is unable to say, "I forgive myself, and I recognize this as a learning experience." Mormon theology states,"Bishops are Judges in Israel" and by implication, we must confess our sins to them. Then they get to decide whether you are truly penitent, completely hijacking our locus of control.
Dr. Hassan's kindness and perspective was incredible to hear. I hope to someday have his clarity and charity for those around me. His points (a few times) about former members stopping to define themselves by the fake group narrative was SO needed for me right now. On his points about talking to your younger self, I've heard that described as "inner child" work. When I was first leaving the Church and wracking my self with guilt trying to sort everything out, I tried one time and it was a truly transformative experience. Thank you for this interview MSP team!
This has been so insightful and helpful. I once loved this church too, John, but when we step back, there’s no way to ignore the control , damage and meanness that far outweigh the good. I love the directness of Dr Hassan and Sam both. I love the work John does but learning how long your deconstruction has taken you - it’s so sad😢. (The garment wearing etc) I hope you can dig in to these wonderful resources and move forward in a positive and empowering way ❤ There is so much more meaning in life beyond Mormonism.
Hearing the comment that it’s ok to say that you’re leaving the church because it doesn’t make you happy and causes you problems is a HUGE revelation to me. It really is that simple, and the fact that saying that to your member friends and family will get you thoroughly rejected, pitied, and distrusted is further evidence that something is really, really wrong with the LDS mindset.
It's not the gospel teachings, it's the members way of thinking and character. If you read the various manuals for studying from the church you will see that it teaches you to be a responsible good christian. It's the mindset of these members being self righteous.
My SIL told me she didn’t know me at all and the friend she thought she had, died the day I told her I’m leaving the church. Seriously made me feel like I couldn’t share how I felt. My thoughts and feelings are not valid unless I’m LDS I GUESS.
@@endlesseverfall3176 It IS the specific gospel teachings that lead to much of the cultural baggage that does not make people happy and causes problems.
@@imkindofabigdeal4308 They are NOT "gospel teachings" and those of us who have recovered from Mormonism must stop using thier language. They are merely Mormon ideas, or Mormon theology or better, Mormon dogma. They are definitely NOT "gospel" teachings - far from it. Once they have you brainwashed and fearful, they then find thier way easily into your wallet.
I cannot tell you how thankful I am for this guest, and for this discussion. This is SO helpful to me! I’ve listened to so many podcasts, read lots of materials, and gone down so many rabbit holes to find exactly what this episode is brimming with: clearly presented and distilled concepts to equip me on how to thoughtfully and reasonably weigh a person or group for myself. As a “recovering (conservative) evangelical”, this is so rich and SO PRACTICAL for my journey. Thank you Dr.Hassan, and THANK YOU MSP for this interview. Years of digging are coming together with this single episode!! It’s a huge relief.
I was a "Molly Mormon" until I was 37. I did everything I was "supposed" to, Then my husband found God in Taoism ☯️..... I've spent the past 6 years deconstructing, from apologist to non believing active to inactive, but nothing has clicked to why I feel and think the way I do like this episode. It was like a light bulb 💡. I watched it about a month ago and since then, things finally make sense. Thank you ❤
My dad left the church and wrote a book about it (Beyond Mormonism- James Spencer) In 1984. Made 1:57 high school in Idaho Falls pretty tricky for me. We did Saints Alive every year with the Tanners and Deckers. Is that where Thrive started? My family plunged into evangelicalism. Which in some ways is worse than Mormonism. No special revelations. Nothing can change for LGBT loved ones. I’ve become obsessed with Mormon Stories. It’s helping me navigate my path out of dogmatism. My dad gave 40 years to helping LDS exit the church. It was a good work and a very important part of my life. It wasn’t always safe traveling around idaho and Utah preaching against the church. Again love John and Mormon Stories so much.
When I was trying to reconcile my faith in the LDS church with my sexuality as a gay man, I started to realize I was having to cultivate a dissociative disorder to be able to attend church meetings. That was a major point where I realized such reconciliation was not possible and I really needed to properly leave.
Here’s my story as a gay female who left the church: We seem to feel the need to have had tons of studying before we feel we have a “right” to leave. That’s why it’s so disingenuous for the “profit” to call us lazy learners. We did a ton more research on our exits, than any other time in the cult. I snapped awake in 1998. I had to feel my face, the walls, the bed, and make a mental list of the things I knew to be true. My reality had been broken. What woke me? I was reading the book of Romans from start to finish, which the church to this day skips most of in Sunday school (I looked in my TBM mom’s SS manual). I went and got a masters in divinity MDiv. They told us there was a huge drop out rate when we started. We were all excited to hear the proofs of Jesus and the apostles. They waited until the 3rd year to tell us there were zero proofs. It’s all assumptions of who may have written which books. And there was zero proof of Jesus’ existence. I was attending the #2 online divinity university in the USA. I went through more loss at that point. I decided to only believe what I experienced when I died in childbirth: I met a Being of Light that accepted me unconditionally and was only concerned about how much I loved others and myself (I had a lot of self hate for being a closeted gay person 🏳️🌈). Being married in the temple, having straight sex, being very Molly Mormon didn’t turn me straight. The Being of Light I met wasn’t concerned about man-made religion. Only about Love ❤and kindness.
It's so primitive how the church treats gay people... And then the parents make them go to church anyways and be treated differently.... It's weird and outdated. And then the women who are tricked in to marrying gay men because the gay men are trying to pretend they aren't gay. It's bizarre and literally medieval.
If you decided to have a relationship with the same gender, and commit fornication, you are free to do so. It's hard to be attending the church, knowing that those deeds is the happiness (temporarily) for those who engaged in it. This makes people that joined the church stay away from those commandments which make them feel unworthy, and most of them don't want to change those sinful desires. But the Lord said, "Not everyone who said, Lord, Lord...." will be saved, but only those who obey his commandments. And that's one of the things that ticked off the majority of the members who wants to fulfill their carnal desires. Being gay, lesbian or bi tendencies is not a sin, it's what you do with how you feel that leads to sinning is wrong. The Lord understands and accept our weaknesses, Satan wants those people to stay away from the truth, so he could fill in the void. The battle to get a hold and control of our thoughts, appetites and desires are real. If we don't want to follow the Savior, we will be our own god, following the natural man. The world wants us to indulged in those impulses, but in the end, we will be the one suffering from it, if we don't change our hearts and repent of the wrong things we do. Satan lulls everyone really.
@@endlesseverfall3176 I've had enough of your ilk's condescension. You and the LDS leadership have continually shown that you are pridefully ignorant about what you speak of on this matter. If your God exists, then He is either cruel and/or impotent, or you will have much to answer for because of the tremendous suffering you cause and perpetuate on the innocent.
@@ryanhollist3950 I'm not here to condemn you, but to give you insights about the domino effects of each choices we make. I hope you find peace and resolve sooner. If the church you are seeking will accept the behavior against God's commandments, then, it's exactly where the devil wants you to be trapped in, to yield to the enticing's of worldly gratifications, without feeling remorse consequences of wrong choices. Galatians 5: 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
something I (as a never-mormon) never thought about the mormon temple ceremony's lack of informed consent is that you're not only pressured to complete the ceremony because your family is waiting for you in the celestial room and they all expect you to go through with it, but you're also pressured to complete the ceremony because it's a requirement for something *else* in your life that you've *also already* promised to do, either go on a mission or get married. So if you're sitting in the temple ceremony and getting bad vibes and feeling like you want to leave, even if you don't necessarily care about disappointing people for not going through with the ceremony, you're still pressured to complete it because if you don't you'll either also have to cancel the mission you already committed to going on, or cancel your mormon temple marriage and risk losing your fiance all together. So whether intentional or not, the timing of the endowment ceremony does a lot to contribute to the B in the bite model.
1986 temple experience: We were stationed in West Germany before communist East Germany’s Wall fell. My parents flew to West Germany to be with us (my husband (22), me (20), and our 24 month old and 4 month old). We drove to the Switzerland temple, the nearest to our home. I was excited! After the naked washing & anointing (older lady touching & blessing my body with her finger in certain areas) I figured it couldn’t get worse. It did. When they told me I had to vow to kill myself by imitating myself slitting my throat, cutting my heart out, and slicing across my abdomen to allow my bowels to disembowel, I thought of where I dropped off my two babies. Could I run and find them, grab them and run out, before they caught me and took me to a sterile room with an alter and drain hole in the floor (to clean up the blood)? I quickly realized we had gone through a maze of halls and down an elevator. I had no idea where my kids were or where I was. Even though I did not grow up watching horror movies, I knew that to stay safe and possibly get out alive, my best bet was to play along like I believed. If I resisted, I might end up “missing.” There was no home internet or social media to prepare me for the temple. The temple prep class did not tell me I had to promise suicide if I “revealed what went on in the temple this day.” It was 100% non-consent. When the endowment session was over, I insisted they take me to my kids immediately. When I saw the door at the end of a hallway that said “Nursery,” I ran to it. I could hear my kids both screaming from the hallway. The older ladies dressed in white had put both my babies in white, wool onesies with legs. I ripped both out of those outfits. Their skin was swollen and beat red where the outfits had contact with their skin. They’re both allergic to heat, the outfits were causing them to overheat. I redressed them in the clothes I brought them in and left. That was ~ 40 years ago. I’m nauseous and shaking just trying this. Ya, it was very traumatic. --- Cupping hand still in the ceremony: I went through the Mormon/LDS/The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints temple Pre-1990 when you acted out the 3 blood-death oaths: slitting my throat, cutting my heart out, and thumb across my abdomen cutting my bowels out and cupping my other hand as if holding my bowels. Nowadays, the only thing left of that is the cupped hand, which people nowadays don’t know that’s a leftover from holding your own bowels in your hand after you’ve cut open your abdomen if you “tell what happens this day, in this temple.”
What? They’ve been teaching me the last 3 weeks and I asked them about this but they never mentioned this, I am freaking out, they keep texting me. They imposed on me that my bf had to move out before I could get baptized. Which is in 10 days. They made me stop drinking alcohol, coffee, tea and other stuff, which I did but they say I can’t get baptized unless I kick my bf out.
Thank you for having Dr. Hassan on your podcast! It was my first time listening to Mormon Stories and found the hosts very insightful with thoughtful questions and observations. Dr. Hassan was enlightening as always.
John when you were talking about the music being a big part of your testimony, it made me think back to before I left the church. I was the first counsellor in primary and when we had the stake primary training there was a HUGE emphasis on music time. Breaks my heart thinking about the primary children now and how much I miss being with them.
I’ve just recently left and I was in nursery & playing piano in primary. I miss those babies so much😢💔if it wasn’t for them then I would have left years ago. It’s still hard.
This episode is amazing, I’m on my way to go help and friend and these two episodes really are driving home the exact reason I’m about to drive 5 hours one way to do what I can for someone I love. Thank you for the motivation.
Agreeeee. Much needed for our current times. Each individual needs to be encouraged to: question all things, investigate, 🔎 and to be on lookout for "red flags" (Dr. S. Hassan's B.I.T.E. Model), continue to search for truth.
"Fundamentally we are emotional beings that rationalize more than thinking beings who have emotions." 🤯 YES!!! FINALLY!!!! THANK YOU!!! thank you for vocalizing what I've felt in my soul since I was a child. I was always taught(/berated) this backwards. I can't put into words how understood this makes me feel right now. ❤
This gives me the leeway to practice more self compassion when it comes to my residual cognitive dissonance. I’ll be patient with the recovery process. Thanks Doctor 🙏
This conversation is one which I can not turn away from! I love the honesty of the conversation and I find so much familiarity in the way that you have expressed yourselves. The gentle loving, kindness of the discussion is honesty one of the greatest discussions which the podcast has had, I love them all, however, this one is so impactful!! Thank you!!
For me, the exercise of going back in your mind and remaking memories has been singularly helpful. As far as I know, in some shamanic traditions it is called “soul retrieval,” the being idea that parts of us are stuck in the trauma or stuck underneath the false self the cult created, we go back and retrieve ourselves.
Around the 2hr20 mark… I can’t be exact because I was listening on my drive from Seattle to Portland, Steve Hassan mentioned Harvey Cox. I go to church with his son. His wife is ex-Mormon. It’s a Unitarian church. It was a full circle moment for me! 💙💙💙💙
I wish I have seen this episode a lot earlier, it would have helped me progress a lot quicker in my journey! I am not ex Mormon but there are important points that can help me in my experience. Thank you so much John for all the you do, it extends beyond the Mormon community.
This episode is pure gold. As a member of the 'least parented generation' I am so grateful to see podcasts like this happening and seen. It's not called the 20/20s for nothing. Wouldn't it be wonderful if Dr. Hassan's course was taught at every Utah county's Health and Human Services?
I notice that the typical Mormon apologist response when told that Mormonism is a cult, is the automatic reply that "all religions are cults", ignoring that Mormonism is on the very end of the spectrum.
Mormonism apologetics are the most dishonest people you'll ever find. Last night I read about two LDS egyptologists "proving" Book of Abraham to be correct. It was dishonesty beyond belief. They had "found" evidence that in ancient Egypt they truly did practice human sacrifice. Book of Abraham 1:8 says: "Now, at this time it was the custom of the priest of Pharaoh, the king of Egypt, to offer up upon the altar which was built in the land of Chaldea, for the offering unto these strange gods, men, women, and children". Offerings to gods with sacrifice of men, women, and children on an altar have never been found to have happened! Surely knowing that, these two clever egyptologists gave as "proof" only different punishments authorized by some Pharaohs. And of course the conclusion then was this: "Yes, Book of Abraham gave a correct description of human sacrifices in ancient Egypt". Dishonest people, scholars, apologetics! All they quoted were some laws descriptions punishment for crimes, including death penalty in the most serious cases, nothing surprising at all in other words, but they twisted that to mean the same as HUMAN SACRIFICES on an altar 🤥. Made me think and wonder, are they being paid to produce this kind of "apologetics" by the LDS Church? As to keep it's members satisfied and not to leave and stop giving tithings to the Church?
Yes, thank you so much Dr. Hassan. "re-living" moments of the past where we visualize what we would do with the knowledge and clarity we have now TOTALLY helps. It empowers the mind and creates a beautiful propulsion into the bright future of increased strength and empowerment. I, too, have practiced this method of healing my mind and it's very effective and I've even talk to my subconscious mind and apologize for the past hurts and give my subconscious mind reassurance that had I known better at the time I would have done better. It's like a hug for myself in the healing process.
Great podcast. Thank you. The Blessing of a Skinned Knee is one of my top 2 parenting books of all time. Many thanks to all three of you. Your friend Kristine
I listened to this before bed last night and I had a bizarre dream. Basically you came to my college dorm (Ive been out of college for years) and you evaluated my living situation. You determined that my friends and I were in a cult of our own because we worshipped my cat. I remember I was really defensive and at one point insisting that he wasn’t because we neg him and EVERYONE worships their cat anyway
Steve with all respect loving your work. There is no need to proof to anyone in this world who you are. Those of us who understand you we are the ones that matter. If those who critique you have their own understanding.
I recently quit going to a healthy church simply because my son and I aren't morning people and it's a far drive. And no one gave a shit. Everyone still talks to me and if we were to drop in they'd be happy to see us and not give me shit like I get when I have to go to the high demand church I grew up in.
This has been such a powerful message. I feel all the feels and really appreciate Steve. I’m going to buy your book. Thanks for sharing your story and helping others to break mind control.
Wow. What a powerful insightful video. Thank you for bringing someone from the outside with expert knowledge. Steven Hassan is a beautiful person and I loved his thought processes and insights.
Thank you Dr.Hassan for sharing you story as well as your wisdom, expertise and advice. Super helpful! Samantha- love your input, helpful info/ observations and calm presence! Thank you Sam and MS for this great episode!
Conscious Deprogramming is vital. My immediate family stopped attending when I was 13. (presently 60) I could not figure out why the dynamics in my family never felt right. The family unity puzzle never seemed to come together. After having a personal spiritual awakening after a deep dark dive into the history of the church, catapulted by dishonesty and pain from family behaviors, (same behaviors of J Smith)I realized my family left the church and lived their new life just like the programmed Mormon just with a different "life doctrine." You cannot just leave the church. I have had to separate myself from my family in order to be an individual. It felt like when I was questioning and leaving the church. It was much harder to "leave" my family than it was to leave Mormonism. Deprogramming is 100% necessary. Did I mention the trail of frequency that has been passed down through the generations apparently I am 6th generation from Joseph Smith himself.
When we left the church in 1992 after 38 years with our three young children we eventually sought out therapy. Rejected by his family when he had converted to the church at age 16 and then rejected by mine when we left we felt as if we were totally adrift. No anchors. No safe place to land. The therapist was genuinely confused. She said, "I don't get it. If you don't like the religion you belong to you just leave! I was raised a Presbyterian but am now a Lutheran. It suits me much better." This was not an isolated incident. People don't "get it" unless they have been in a high demand/cult religion all their lives. It's not as simple as just picking a "new church." It's a lifetime of being lied to, deceived, etc. It takes years. It took me at least ten to get comfortable enough to even be able to address all the issues I had from growing up in the church. There is not a quick fix. But in the end it is worth it to be your authentic self.
Someone probably said this already, but what about putting your doubts on a shelf? Totally thought stopping.... Former Jehovah's Witness, I have been out for 20 or so years, and discovered Steven about a decade ago. I love your work, sir.
I realize I’m basically talking into the void by commenting on a 5 month old video, but I really wish I had the money to sit down and discuss some of these topics in depth with Dr. Hassan. I’m a trans exmo and exvangelical and I’m finding stuff like this very therapeutic bc Parasocial bonding is *real*, but also it’s never going to take the place of an actual back and forth with a trusted expert. I’ve had a few traumatic experiences with therapists plus a few useless ones, so I’m taking a break from therapy to try to sort stuff out independently, but I’m looking forward to getting to have the kind of discussions I picture again someday.
When I heard this model, I immediately thought about my graduate program with many male Skinner psychologists. I grew up among people who practiced fundamentalist Christianity. My family's church was far less controlling, yet I was sent to hell regularly. I am still working through that. I am 70.
This is so interesting. I’m originally from Utah but left when I was 9. My family are not Mormons but a few converted under pressure. Some eventually left, some are still practicing Mormons. I am truly grateful that my first 9 years of life were surrounded by Mormons because our community was so safe & truly nurturing. All neighboring homes were drug and alcohol free, stable, two parent homes. My school teachers were all LDS women deeply committed to civility & kindness. I wasn’t raised with religion because my parents were black sheep so I feel like I got the best of both worlds. I work in high poverty areas in Seattle with heartbreaking child neglect and substance abuse running rampant. Single mothers are the norm. It’s a mess.
X Pentecostal! One time I burnt my finger on the stove and my aunt asked did I get burned, I said yes! She replied back to me by saying well, if that burnt can you imagine how hell will be!? So many stories of fear had been planted in my head!
Dr Hassan mentioned a few times over 3 episodes, that a big part of his conversion to the Moonies was sex. He believed that he might find love/sex with one of the 3 young women that recruited him. I think this is a very important concept. I grew up in Seventh-Day Adventism and I know as I became teenager with hormones pumping, I was motivated to become more serious about that church when I thought it would make me more appealing to teenage SDA girls. At about age 20 I left the SDAs upon learning their female prophet (Ellen G White) plagiarized much of what she wrote. After leaving SDAism I became a Baptist and looking back, I was motivated to adopt the Baptist faith, doctrines and testimony, to some degree to fit into that community and especially to be attractive to young Baptist women.
With abused women of narcissist abuse it's called fog fear obligation and guilt coming out of this kind of relationship is freedom but painful because of the cognitive distance again thank you
Wow, such a gem, thanks for having Dr Hassan on. I would love to know more about his treatment with ex scientologists. Would love to do the course, but exchange rates suck for us. much love.
I’m 68, 30 years out. It’s not that easy - only 1 year to recover? I still struggle. There are so many things I loved and miss to this day. Dr. Hassan doesn’t really seem to understand, and I really dislike his analogy about “intercourse with a woman”. This episode made me feel so awful. I cried for hours.
I have a soft spot for cult members and ex-members. Since 2008 , I noticed what Dr Hassan is saying, but I admire the science and scientific terms, especially as a clinical pharmacists who loves psychiatry neurology and neuroscience and psychiatric pharmacy.I have noticed many of them are smart and soft hearted. They may have Borderline personality disorders. I love this topic.
Mind-blowing. Both parts. I listened to it holding my breath. Haven't been in a high demand religion myself although all religions are somewhat demanding and scaring. But so many things in this interview were relatable to everyday life. Thanks so much for doing it. Ps. My first introduction to Samantha was awful, here she was like a whole different person. I loved her input.
The exchange around minute 55 is really interesting. Not sure Steven really appreciated how much learned helplessness there is among life long Mormons that need help connecting the dots.
About “stay away from apostates “ in our case; they even alienated us much earlier the time we left; just because we were showing signs of having free mind. So, they started spying on us; even family members saying lies about us. It is horrible.
I stopped having my daughter attend YW at 12 because she was getting depressed, she wanted to be a business woman, and they told her she had to be only a wife & mom. The church members shunned me when they saw me in public or at church. She had her own business at 12, she’s now 39 and extremely successful, including having 3 kids and a husband.
Having come out of a cult the spot i completely identify me with your guest is when the idea of the part your pride plays. You’re special, the fact that you get the message means God is with you and guiding you, and if you leave you will be in hell. It all plays a part with your mind.
This is really fascinating as a never mo who did grow up with some non-traditional religious structures around me. I grew up (and still am somewhat) a follower of an Indian guru (Amma). It never felt cultish to me, however I'm aware that lots of Indian gurus are very much cult leaders, so as I'm now in my early 20's, im re-evaluating my beliefs. To be honest, I'm not sure what i believe in terms of the divine, but from my assessment of the bite model, it certainly isnt a cult, which is nice to know.
Wow the going back to the past part is a Neville Goddard Manifestation technique called Revision. I’ve never been in a high demand group but have researched a lot and feel there’s some worrying online spiritual groups - although I do believe in spiritual concepts some of the online content can become cult like. You’ve touched on this before around Teal Swan. Neville Goddard is a helpful manifestation teacher. He taught that the individual has power and how to reclaim that. And that god or the spiritual is not found outside of the self. Anyway he has a technique called Revision which is exactly what you describe about re imagining the past. It can change the present and future. Very interesting. Loved these two episodes. Thanks for all you do
One reason for leaving is abuse and trauma Somebody in the church hurt you Of course if you're a convert and you find out the contradictions and doctrines and all of that makes you question and then you make up your mind to leave and take your name off the list that's what I did when I married my 3rd husband I didn't know what a single's word was but I found out and ended up married but then I got abused and of course I studied the scriptures like crazy and there were so many contradictions I couldn't believe it I was a convert didn't stay in the church very long and I took my name off the list and left and yes those comments about why did you have a problem with the doctrine or what was going on But anyway you're right about the things they say when you leave thank you so much for sharing this I've had Steve Hudson's book for quite some time thank you so much
It feels like Dr Hassan keeps mistaking the video as therapy whereas John is trying to analyze the systemic problems in Mormonism that make it a high control group
Setting aside for a moment whether Ayn Rand had a cult, that was a gross mischaracterization of her idea of selfishness. I have known hundreds of people over the years who claimed to be adherents of her philosophy, some of whom knew her, and represent her ideas professionally, and none of them would agree that she advocated for taking things from others because you desire them, or even taking from others without regard for their consent. Setting up a strawman by implying that Rand held a conventional view of what is, and is not, selfish is not honest.
I was married to a narc for 23yrs so I know all about manipulation. Coercion control and combative behaviour when you decide to end the toxic bond you have….they remain “squeaky clean” in regards to their extended family…while you will always be the villain for walking away from their toxicity they projected at you, behind closed doors 🙏💗🙏
This is such great information! I was married to a narcissist for 33 years. Very controlling and I felt like I was walking on eggshells most of the time. I had few friends and was isolated and managed. I'm 70 years old and 15 years after divorce, I'm finally finding my true self. It feels so good. Thank you for sharing your wisdom, Steven.
It's been eight years for me. I'm still walking on eggshells even though he's not here! I still struggle most every day even though I did find myself and who I am however, I do speak to him he lives in another state I know I am trauma bonding I need to get over it! I know what I'm doing and it is affecting me however I still keep on doing it by talking to him! I went to therapist that specialized in trauma however, she did not have a clue about narcissism! It was as though I was the therapist and have to explain everything to her!
@@winros That’s wild! A lot of trauma comes from narcissism. Many leaders of churches and CEOs of businesses are narcissists. That’s how they can step on people on the way to the top and not care.
I read a lot of stories about people who met general authorities in the church, I was stunned by the amount of narcissistic attitudes they had towards us pee-ons.
@@katbos4995 at the end of the day, they are the most insecure people that you will ever meet! They put you down to make themselves look better or feel better about themselves! They are nothing but bullies! I don't Hold my tongue anymore! I will Nip it right in the bud when I feel someone is being disrespectful to me! I'm back having no contact with him I just can't do it anymore it's destroying me! I just hope I can keep my stance! You give people a little bit of power and it goes right to their heads! That is a tactic used while in the church! You give someone a little power and by doing that you'll be able to control more of that person! I have to look that up again! ✌🏼✌🏼✌🏼 Thank you for replying! ✌🏼
@@winrosplease for your own mental health, you need to cut off all relationship. Narcissists can still control you even from afar. I choose not to have any relationship with him and it has been for the better.
These two episodes with Dr Hassan move immediately to the front of the line. This is some of the most important work ever done on MSP. It was super helpful to me to hear and see Dr Hassan demonstrate the tools he's developed and the techniques he's learned. He's beautiful, and I'm so grateful. Also, totally loved his moments when he audibly sounded the "alert" on some super red flags in LDS doctrine, leadership and culture. Thank you all!
Agreed! Reading Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control by Luna Lindsey is also SO HELPFUL when leaving the church! It puts everything Lipton and Hassan teach into the Mormon context. It was a GAME CHANGER for my wife and I when processing our faith transition
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
@@chrewtransformation 100% agree!
This is one of my top 5 impactful episodes to date. I had a visceral reaction listening to the red flags. Having Dr. Hassan share that it's ok to leave for any reason- is a radical mind shift for me. For the past few years I've tried so hard to defend my choice to walk away and I cannot tell you how much peace I feel and how truly it resonated to hear that I can leave for any reason I want. Only a cult makes you feel otherwise. Thank you for this insightful and helpful episode!
We seem to feel the need to have had tons of studying before we feel we have a “right” to leave. That’s why it’s so disingenuous for the “profit” to call us lazy learners. We did a ton more research on our exits, than any other time in the cult.
I snapped awake in 1998. I had to feel my face, the walls, the bed, and make a mental list of the things I knew to be true. My reality had been broken. What woke me? I was reading the book of Romans from start to finish, which the church to this day skips most of in Sunday school (I looked in my TBM mom’s SS manual).
I went and got a masters in divinity MDiv. They told us there was a huge drop out rate when we started. We were all excited to hear the proofs of Jesus and the apostles. They waited until the 3rd year to tell us there were zero proofs. It’s all assumptions of who may have written which books. And there was zero proof of Jesus’ existence. I was attending the #2 online divinity university in the USA.
I went through more loss at that point. I decided to only believe what I experienced when I died in childbirth: I met a Being of Light that accepted me unconditionally and was only concerned about how much I loved others and myself (I had a lot of self hate for being a closeted gay person 🏳️🌈). Being married in the temple, having straight sex, being very Molly Mormon didn’t turn me straight. The Being of Light I met wasn’t concerned about man-made religion. Only about Love ❤and kindness.
Whoever "taught" you there was "zero proof of Jesus's existence" was critically mistaken. Apparently, that broke the protection you did have, allowing this 'being of light' (which Satan is known to masquerade as.) into your mind and soul.. Glad you broke free of Moroni LTD, but I pray you keep searching til you're truly free!
Im several years into deconstruction and actually need to speak more positively about my faith journey and how proud of myself for taking the steps I have.
Amen. It takes courage to ask real questions ,and actually stand for truth. ," Prove all things, hold fast that which is good." Thessalonians...
@@inChristalone1960 and what has that got to do with anything?
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I went through intensive counseling with Bob & Judy Pardon at Meadowhaven. Dr Hassan was quoted often by them. They literally saved my life and our marriage. Heavy handed churches, not just Mormons, have destroyed lives for years. We had a young lady raised in a polygamist group and it was so cool to see her evolve and heal. Highly recommended!
So insightful. I was married to a nonpracticing LDS/Morman for 17 years. I loved his family and they were so kind and supportive. They never pressured me or my kids from a previous marriage to convert. I cherish the years of being a part of their family. That being said, I still to this day find the culture fascinating as I do other religions. Being an atheist I find all religions wonderful and interesting from a sociological perspective.
Yes, I think people can still behave well and be loving, kind and compassionate within these cults because as Steven mentioned, it depends on how an individual responds to the cult, meaning, not all people will be as eager, for example, to be the best member they can be etc. and not all people will believe all that they’re being taught to believe.
@christineaddison6375 I appreciate Dr. Hassan and follow him to learn about cults. My maiden name is Hasson, pronounced the same way. My Grandpa Hasson was a devout Sephardic Jew.
I was raised Mormon and left the church at 44 because I wanted to try a different way of life. I was lovingly excommunicated, which I completely agreed with. I was never ostracized. My dignity remained intact. I still went to church as an excommunicated member if I wanted to, and I was treated with love and acceptance by almost everyone.
After experimenting and exploring a different lifestyle for about 5 years, I had an amazing dream that made me want to return. I joined the LDS church again, this time as an adult, and I've never been more spiritually happy or more free-thinking.
Perhaps my journey out of the Mormon church and back in again was so incredibly loving and positive because it happened first in Alaska and concluded in New York City. If it had all occurred in Utah, maybe I would've ended up hating the church. Sorry Utah, haha. There is a belief amongst Mormons that Utah Mormons are more cultish and controlling. I don't know if it's true or not.
I love the sacred, symbolic rituals of the temple. They remind me of Baptist, Jewish, and Freemason rituals. I see Jewish men and women walking around NYC in clothing VERY similar to Mormon temple clothing. Amish clothing is similar as well. I think of the temple ceremonies as only rituals with symbols representing greater spiritual truths. The ritual could be done differently, with different clothing, and still mean the same thing to me. The basic truths remain the same, but the rituals have evolved and been simplified to be more in harmony with modern times. As far as I know and imho, it's not anymore "creepy" than anything else other religions do, especially Catholics, haha. Either you like it or you don't. I agree with this podcast that it is very important to be told as much as possible about it before choosing to go and participate.
I believe truth can be found everywhere you look. My beliefs may not align perfectly with every single known doctrine of the Mormon church, but I'm fine with that, as are other church members. Some of their beliefs are even more on the outer fringe than mine, which I think is cool. I'm not perfect. The Church isn't perfect, but I find it to be a wonderful tool that brings me closer to my higher power and my own self-awareness.
I am now married to a Muslim man from Turkey. We completely support each other's different faiths and delight in the similarities and the differences. I don't want my husband to join my church, ever, unless that is something he decides on his own. I join him in Islamic prayers and fasting for Ramadan, headscarf and all! Sometimes he attends church with me, especially if I'm giving a talk. We pray together every day and believe we are praying to the same god, whether we call god Heavenly Father or Allah.
I believe in finding spirituality wherever a person can find the most joy! I don't care if you are Wiccan, atheist, Hindu, Druid, Baptist, whatever. I would hope that whatever you believe, your driving forces are love, human rights, and respect for others who are different than yourself.
If there is one thing I would dearly love to change about the LDS church, it would be to tone down the missionary program. I agree with this podcast that before a person joins the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, they need to be fully aware of everything, the good, the bad, the beautiful, and the ugly. They need to really want it. Joining should be a difficult process with tests and sh💩t, and at least a year to think it over, just like the Jews do.
Lastly, if you believe you are trapped in a cult and do not have control over your own mind, than you ARE in a cult! Get out. Go where you are happy. My biggest concern about cults are dangerous cults that teach hate. The ones that seriously brainwash and isolate people. I suppose even the definition of a dangerous cult is going to vary from person to person. I believe my brother is trapped in the dangerous cult of Trumpism and Qanon, as are many other Mormons like him. He has been mentally ill for 40 years and says he will give up his family before he gives up his loyalty to Trump. We don't even ask him to choose, so I don't know why he says (screams) that. 😢
Bismillah 🙏🧿🙏 I wish you peace ✌️ and love 💙🧿💙
So glad Dr Hassan was able to come to Utah! Sorry our high desert air was trying to choke him. I hope he got some hot tea and his voice holds through the weekend!
He honestly has the best heart - it literally radiates when he speaks! Thank you Dr Hassan :)
We agree!
He really does. He has a very gentle and humble energy
Whoever's doing the timestamps for these episodes is incredible!! It makes it easier to find my place if I lose it, but also gives an excellent summary of what's discussed if I want a quick recap for whatever reason, or maybe I want to reference a specific moment for myself or to show somebody else. It's perfect! 👌
I love that Dr Hassan challenged us a bit on letting go and moving on. It’s time for me. It’s also tough because many of us are still immersed in the religion and culture. There’s no way to fully leave it behind.
It’s scary, but there’s a lot of peace on the other side.
I read your book two decades ago. The most memorable thing that changed my life, was your anecdote of you meeting a man who was very kind to you, although you did not break free at that time. I have tried to treat cult members I encounter with as much kindness. Thank you!
I love this
John, please do a show about Mormonism and PTSD.
Yes, the second half of this interview was reminding me so much of the book "The Body Keeps the Score," which focuses majorly on PTSD, because many of those techniques like: getting in touch with your body, desensitizing yourself to triggers, rewriting a traumatic memory, and taking back your power are discussed in the book.
Love this suggestion.
CPTSD, since it starts in childhood. Complex PTSD.
Yes, this is an excellent suggestion. A lot of LDS (Mormons) are dealing with PTSD or a form of it after leaving it. @mormonstories
I literally will have panic attacks just hearing the words OBEY or THE GOSPEL.
Brilliant program. He is raw, and honest and charming and funny and so, so smart. Can't wait for episode 2. And, Samantha: You are so tuned in!!! Great questions. Very clear, insightful observations. Admire you very much!! John...great show. Thanks
Glad you enjoyed it!
I was fortunate early on to recognize this "locus of control" issue. It resonated deeply with me that the individual Mormon is unable to say, "I forgive myself, and I recognize this as a learning experience." Mormon theology states,"Bishops are Judges in Israel" and by implication, we must confess our sins to them. Then they get to decide whether you are truly penitent, completely hijacking our locus of control.
Dr. Hassan's kindness and perspective was incredible to hear. I hope to someday have his clarity and charity for those around me. His points (a few times) about former members stopping to define themselves by the fake group narrative was SO needed for me right now.
On his points about talking to your younger self, I've heard that described as "inner child" work. When I was first leaving the Church and wracking my self with guilt trying to sort everything out, I tried one time and it was a truly transformative experience.
Thank you for this interview MSP team!
Listen to moore of dr Steven Hassan, such a humble and sharpe man! Thank you morminstories for bring in real experts and let them expande our minds
This has been so insightful and helpful. I once loved this church too, John, but when we step back, there’s no way to ignore the control , damage and meanness that far outweigh the good. I love the directness of Dr Hassan and Sam both. I love the work John does but learning how long your deconstruction has taken you - it’s so sad😢. (The garment wearing etc) I hope you can dig in to these wonderful resources and move forward in a positive and empowering way ❤ There is so much more meaning in life beyond Mormonism.
Fantastic interviews with Dr Hassan. I appreciate Samantha’s insights very much too, they added to the discuss. That is for this one!
Hearing the comment that it’s ok to say that you’re leaving the church because it doesn’t make you happy and causes you problems is a HUGE revelation to me. It really is that simple, and the fact that saying that to your member friends and family will get you thoroughly rejected, pitied, and distrusted is further evidence that something is really, really wrong with the LDS mindset.
It's not the gospel teachings, it's the members way of thinking and character. If you read the various manuals for studying from the church you will see that it teaches you to be a responsible good christian. It's the mindset of these members being self righteous.
My SIL told me she didn’t know me at all and the friend she thought she had, died the day I told her I’m leaving the church. Seriously made me feel like I couldn’t share how I felt. My thoughts and feelings are not valid unless I’m LDS I GUESS.
@@endlesseverfall3176 It IS the specific gospel teachings that lead to much of the cultural baggage that does not make people happy and causes problems.
@@imkindofabigdeal4308 They are NOT "gospel teachings" and those of us who have recovered from Mormonism must stop using thier language. They are merely Mormon ideas, or Mormon theology or better, Mormon dogma. They are definitely NOT "gospel" teachings - far from it. Once they have you brainwashed and fearful, they then find thier way easily into your wallet.
This has been such a healing experience watching these episodes. I am so grateful for Mormon Stories and for Dr Hassan and his wisdom. 💜
I cannot tell you how thankful I am for this guest, and for this discussion. This is SO helpful to me! I’ve listened to so many podcasts, read lots of materials, and gone down so many rabbit holes to find exactly what this episode is brimming with: clearly presented and distilled concepts to equip me on how to thoughtfully and reasonably weigh a person or group for myself. As a “recovering (conservative) evangelical”, this is so rich and SO PRACTICAL for my journey. Thank you Dr.Hassan, and THANK YOU MSP for this interview. Years of digging are coming together with this single episode!! It’s a huge relief.
I was a "Molly Mormon" until I was 37. I did everything I was "supposed" to, Then my husband found God in Taoism ☯️..... I've spent the past 6 years deconstructing, from apologist to non believing active to inactive, but nothing has clicked to why I feel and think the way I do like this episode. It was like a light bulb 💡. I watched it about a month ago and since then, things finally make sense. Thank you ❤
My dad left the church and wrote a book about it (Beyond Mormonism- James Spencer)
In 1984. Made 1:57 high school in Idaho Falls pretty tricky for me. We did Saints Alive every year with the Tanners and Deckers. Is that where Thrive started? My family plunged into evangelicalism. Which in some ways is worse than Mormonism. No special revelations. Nothing can change for LGBT loved ones. I’ve become obsessed with Mormon Stories. It’s helping me navigate my path out of dogmatism. My dad gave 40 years to helping LDS exit the church. It was a good work and a very important part of my life. It wasn’t always safe traveling around idaho and Utah preaching against the church. Again love John and Mormon Stories so much.
❤️🙏
When I was trying to reconcile my faith in the LDS church with my sexuality as a gay man, I started to realize I was having to cultivate a dissociative disorder to be able to attend church meetings. That was a major point where I realized such reconciliation was not possible and I really needed to properly leave.
Here’s my story as a gay female who left the church:
We seem to feel the need to have had tons of studying before we feel we have a “right” to leave. That’s why it’s so disingenuous for the “profit” to call us lazy learners. We did a ton more research on our exits, than any other time in the cult.
I snapped awake in 1998. I had to feel my face, the walls, the bed, and make a mental list of the things I knew to be true. My reality had been broken. What woke me? I was reading the book of Romans from start to finish, which the church to this day skips most of in Sunday school (I looked in my TBM mom’s SS manual).
I went and got a masters in divinity MDiv. They told us there was a huge drop out rate when we started. We were all excited to hear the proofs of Jesus and the apostles. They waited until the 3rd year to tell us there were zero proofs. It’s all assumptions of who may have written which books. And there was zero proof of Jesus’ existence. I was attending the #2 online divinity university in the USA.
I went through more loss at that point. I decided to only believe what I experienced when I died in childbirth: I met a Being of Light that accepted me unconditionally and was only concerned about how much I loved others and myself (I had a lot of self hate for being a closeted gay person 🏳️🌈). Being married in the temple, having straight sex, being very Molly Mormon didn’t turn me straight. The Being of Light I met wasn’t concerned about man-made religion. Only about Love ❤and kindness.
It's so primitive how the church treats gay people... And then the parents make them go to church anyways and be treated differently.... It's weird and outdated. And then the women who are tricked in to marrying gay men because the gay men are trying to pretend they aren't gay. It's bizarre and literally medieval.
If you decided to have a relationship with the same gender, and commit fornication, you are free to do so. It's hard to be attending
the church, knowing that those deeds is the happiness (temporarily) for those who engaged in it. This makes people that joined
the church stay away from those commandments which make them feel unworthy, and most of them don't want to change those sinful desires. But the Lord said, "Not everyone who said, Lord, Lord...." will be saved, but only those who obey his commandments. And that's one of the things that ticked off the majority of the members who wants to fulfill their carnal desires. Being gay, lesbian or bi tendencies is not a sin, it's what you do with how you feel that leads to sinning is wrong. The Lord understands and accept our weaknesses, Satan wants those people to stay away from the truth, so he could fill in the void. The battle to get a hold and control of our thoughts, appetites and desires are real. If we don't want to follow the Savior, we will be our own god, following the natural man. The world wants us to indulged in those impulses, but in the end, we will be the one suffering from it, if we don't change our hearts and repent of the wrong things we do. Satan lulls everyone really.
@@endlesseverfall3176 I've had enough of your ilk's condescension. You and the LDS leadership have continually shown that you are pridefully ignorant about what you speak of on this matter. If your God exists, then He is either cruel and/or impotent, or you will have much to answer for because of the tremendous suffering you cause and perpetuate on the innocent.
@@ryanhollist3950 I'm not here to condemn you, but to give you insights about the domino effects of each choices we make. I hope you find peace and resolve sooner. If the church you are seeking will accept the behavior against God's commandments, then, it's exactly where the devil wants you to be trapped in, to yield to the enticing's of worldly gratifications, without feeling remorse consequences of wrong choices.
Galatians 5: 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
something I (as a never-mormon) never thought about the mormon temple ceremony's lack of informed consent is that you're not only pressured to complete the ceremony because your family is waiting for you in the celestial room and they all expect you to go through with it, but you're also pressured to complete the ceremony because it's a requirement for something *else* in your life that you've *also already* promised to do, either go on a mission or get married. So if you're sitting in the temple ceremony and getting bad vibes and feeling like you want to leave, even if you don't necessarily care about disappointing people for not going through with the ceremony, you're still pressured to complete it because if you don't you'll either also have to cancel the mission you already committed to going on, or cancel your mormon temple marriage and risk losing your fiance all together. So whether intentional or not, the timing of the endowment ceremony does a lot to contribute to the B in the bite model.
Very well said!
1986 temple experience: We were stationed in West Germany before communist East Germany’s Wall fell. My parents flew to West Germany to be with us (my husband (22), me (20), and our 24 month old and 4 month old).
We drove to the Switzerland temple, the nearest to our home. I was excited! After the naked washing & anointing (older lady touching & blessing my body with her finger in certain areas) I figured it couldn’t get worse.
It did.
When they told me I had to vow to kill myself by imitating myself slitting my throat, cutting my heart out, and slicing across my abdomen to allow my bowels to disembowel, I thought of where I dropped off my two babies. Could I run and find them, grab them and run out, before they caught me and took me to a sterile room with an alter and drain hole in the floor (to clean up the blood)?
I quickly realized we had gone through a maze of halls and down an elevator. I had no idea where my kids were or where I was. Even though I did not grow up watching horror movies, I knew that to stay safe and possibly get out alive, my best bet was to play along like I believed. If I resisted, I might end up “missing.” There was no home internet or social media to prepare me for the temple.
The temple prep class did not tell me I had to promise suicide if I “revealed what went on in the temple this day.” It was 100% non-consent. When the endowment session was over, I insisted they take me to my kids immediately. When I saw the door at the end of a hallway that said “Nursery,” I ran to it. I could hear my kids both screaming from the hallway. The older ladies dressed in white had put both my babies in white, wool onesies with legs. I ripped both out of those outfits. Their skin was swollen and beat red where the outfits had contact with their skin. They’re both allergic to heat, the outfits were causing them to overheat. I redressed them in the clothes I brought them in and left. That was ~ 40 years ago. I’m nauseous and shaking just trying this. Ya, it was very traumatic.
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Cupping hand still in the ceremony:
I went through the Mormon/LDS/The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints temple Pre-1990 when you acted out the 3 blood-death oaths: slitting my throat, cutting my heart out, and thumb across my abdomen cutting my bowels out and cupping my other hand as if holding my bowels.
Nowadays, the only thing left of that is the cupped hand, which people nowadays don’t know that’s a leftover from holding your own bowels in your hand after you’ve cut open your abdomen if you “tell what happens this day, in this temple.”
Holy crud
What? They’ve been teaching me the last 3 weeks and I asked them about this but they never mentioned this, I am freaking out, they keep texting me. They imposed on me that my bf had to move out before I could get baptized. Which is in 10 days. They made me stop drinking alcohol, coffee, tea and other stuff, which I did but they say I can’t get baptized unless I kick my bf out.
@@katbos4995thank you for sharing, I’m officially traumatized
Thank you for having Dr. Hassan on your podcast! It was my first time listening to Mormon Stories and found the hosts very insightful with thoughtful questions and observations. Dr. Hassan was enlightening as always.
Steven is basically talking about taking back your power to choose, decide & take action despite fears. I love it!
Wow ~ these two episodes are intellectual dynamite! Dr. Hassan is a beautiful, kind spirit with so much knowledge. ❤
John when you were talking about the music being a big part of your testimony, it made me think back to before I left the church. I was the first counsellor in primary and when we had the stake primary training there was a HUGE emphasis on music time. Breaks my heart thinking about the primary children now and how much I miss being with them.
I’ve just recently left and I was in nursery & playing piano in primary. I miss those babies so much😢💔if it wasn’t for them then I would have left years ago. It’s still hard.
This episode is amazing, I’m on my way to go help and friend and these two episodes really are driving home the exact reason I’m about to drive 5 hours one way to do what I can for someone I love.
Thank you for the motivation.
Thank Dr Hassan, Dr Dehlin and Samantha so much 😊
I hope he comes back and speaks more about these points and how he has worked with people.
Agreeeee. Much needed for our current times. Each individual needs to be encouraged to: question all things, investigate, 🔎 and to be on lookout for "red flags" (Dr. S. Hassan's B.I.T.E. Model), continue to search for truth.
"Fundamentally we are emotional beings that rationalize more than thinking beings who have emotions." 🤯 YES!!! FINALLY!!!! THANK YOU!!! thank you for vocalizing what I've felt in my soul since I was a child. I was always taught(/berated) this backwards. I can't put into words how understood this makes me feel right now. ❤
This gives me the leeway to practice more self compassion when it comes to my residual cognitive dissonance. I’ll be patient with the recovery process. Thanks Doctor 🙏
This conversation is one which I can not turn away from! I love the honesty of the conversation and I find so much familiarity in the way that you have expressed yourselves. The gentle loving, kindness of the discussion is honesty one of the greatest discussions which the podcast has had, I love them all, however, this one is so impactful!! Thank you!!
For me, the exercise of going back in your mind and remaking memories has been singularly helpful. As far as I know, in some shamanic traditions it is called “soul retrieval,” the being idea that parts of us are stuck in the trauma or stuck underneath the false self the cult created, we go back and retrieve ourselves.
I'm super grateful for this amazing resource! I'm still coming out of Mormonism and trying to figure out what real life is like
Reconstruct as quickly and cleanly as possible…don’t paddle around in the swill of mormoncorp…a beautiful life awaits….❤🔥✨❤🔥
Well put! Totally agree. True happiness begins after Mormonism!
@@SouthernIdaho Absolutely…enjoy every day…👌🏽
Around the 2hr20 mark… I can’t be exact because I was listening on my drive from Seattle to Portland, Steve Hassan mentioned Harvey Cox. I go to church with his son. His wife is ex-Mormon. It’s a Unitarian church. It was a full circle moment for me! 💙💙💙💙
I wish I have seen this episode a lot earlier, it would have helped me progress a lot quicker in my journey! I am not ex Mormon but there are important points that can help me in my experience. Thank you so much John for all the you do, it extends beyond the Mormon community.
This episode is pure gold. As a member of the 'least parented generation' I am so grateful to see podcasts like this happening and seen. It's not called the 20/20s for nothing. Wouldn't it be wonderful if Dr. Hassan's course was taught at every Utah county's Health and Human Services?
I notice that the typical Mormon apologist response when told that Mormonism is a cult, is the automatic reply that "all religions are cults", ignoring that Mormonism is on the very end of the spectrum.
Mormonism apologetics are the most dishonest people you'll ever find. Last night I read about two LDS egyptologists "proving" Book of Abraham to be correct. It was dishonesty beyond belief. They had "found" evidence that in ancient Egypt they truly did practice human sacrifice. Book of Abraham 1:8 says: "Now, at this time it was the custom of the priest of Pharaoh, the king of Egypt, to offer up upon the altar which was built in the land of Chaldea, for the offering unto these strange gods, men, women, and children". Offerings to gods with sacrifice of men, women, and children on an altar have never been found to have happened! Surely knowing that, these two clever egyptologists gave as "proof" only different punishments authorized by some Pharaohs. And of course the conclusion then was this: "Yes, Book of Abraham gave a correct description of human sacrifices in ancient Egypt". Dishonest people, scholars, apologetics! All they quoted were some laws descriptions punishment for crimes, including death penalty in the most serious cases, nothing surprising at all in other words, but they twisted that to mean the same as HUMAN SACRIFICES on an altar 🤥. Made me think and wonder, are they being paid to produce this kind of "apologetics" by the LDS Church? As to keep it's members satisfied and not to leave and stop giving tithings to the Church?
This episode has been so helpful for me. It feels like pieces of a puzzle that I had unknowingly missed are now available to me.
I'm so glad!
Yes, thank you so much Dr. Hassan. "re-living" moments of the past where we visualize what we would do with the knowledge and clarity we have now TOTALLY helps. It empowers the mind and creates a beautiful propulsion into the bright future of increased strength and empowerment.
I, too, have practiced this method of healing my mind and it's very effective and I've even talk to my subconscious mind and apologize for the past hurts and give my subconscious mind reassurance that had I known better at the time I would have done better. It's like a hug for myself in the healing process.
Great podcast. Thank you. The Blessing of a Skinned Knee is one of my top 2 parenting books of all time.
Many thanks to all three of you.
Your friend Kristine
I listened to this before bed last night and I had a bizarre dream. Basically you came to my college dorm (Ive been out of college for years) and you evaluated my living situation. You determined that my friends and I were in a cult of our own because we worshipped my cat. I remember I was really defensive and at one point insisting that he wasn’t because we neg him and EVERYONE worships their cat anyway
Neg him? Please explain this choice of words.
@@MartineReedmaybe he means neglect?
To neg is to give back handed compliments
The most helpful episode that I have watched so far (probably 100+). Such simple, powerful and extremely transformative ideas.
Purpose driven recovery is what it sounds like. Purpose driven life in the long run according to one's own discovery.
Steve with all respect loving your work. There is no need to proof to anyone in this world who you are. Those of us who understand you we are the ones that matter. If those who critique you have their own understanding.
That was nothing short of excellent! Thank you all so very much for your critical analysis of the subject at hand.
I recently quit going to a healthy church simply because my son and I aren't morning people and it's a far drive. And no one gave a shit. Everyone still talks to me and if we were to drop in they'd be happy to see us and not give me shit like I get when I have to go to the high demand church I grew up in.
This has been such a powerful message. I feel all the feels and really appreciate Steve. I’m going to buy your book. Thanks for sharing your story and helping others to break mind control.
NeverMo here; excellent & appropriate topic for our current times.
Wow. What a powerful insightful video. Thank you for bringing someone from the outside with expert knowledge. Steven Hassan is a beautiful person and I loved his thought processes and insights.
Thank you Dr.Hassan for sharing you story as well as your wisdom, expertise and advice. Super helpful! Samantha- love your input, helpful info/ observations and calm presence! Thank you Sam and MS for this great episode!
Thank you that was fantastic. I bought the book. I'm 58 years old but I can still grab a bit of real life if I try! You know what I mean.
Conscious Deprogramming is vital. My immediate family stopped attending when I was 13. (presently 60) I could not figure out why the dynamics in my family never felt right. The family unity puzzle never seemed to come together. After having a personal spiritual awakening after a deep dark dive into the history of the church, catapulted by dishonesty and pain from family behaviors, (same behaviors of J Smith)I realized my family left the church and lived their new life just like the programmed Mormon just with a different "life doctrine." You cannot just leave the church. I have had to separate myself from my family in order to be an individual. It felt like when I was questioning and leaving the church. It was much harder to "leave" my family than it was to leave Mormonism. Deprogramming is 100% necessary. Did I mention the trail of frequency that has been passed down through the generations apparently I am 6th generation from Joseph Smith himself.
When we left the church in 1992 after 38 years with our three young children we eventually sought out therapy. Rejected by his family when he had converted to the church at age 16 and then rejected by mine when we left we felt as if we were totally adrift. No anchors. No safe place to land. The therapist was genuinely confused. She said, "I don't get it. If you don't like the religion you belong to you just leave! I was raised a Presbyterian but am now a Lutheran. It suits me much better." This was not an isolated incident. People don't "get it" unless they have been in a high demand/cult religion all their lives. It's not as simple as just picking a "new church." It's a lifetime of being lied to, deceived, etc. It takes years. It took me at least ten to get comfortable enough to even be able to address all the issues I had from growing up in the church. There is not a quick fix. But in the end it is worth it to be your authentic self.
Someone probably said this already, but what about putting your doubts on a shelf? Totally thought stopping....
Former Jehovah's Witness, I have been out for 20 or so years, and discovered Steven about a decade ago. I love your work, sir.
I realize I’m basically talking into the void by commenting on a 5 month old video, but I really wish I had the money to sit down and discuss some of these topics in depth with Dr. Hassan. I’m a trans exmo and exvangelical and I’m finding stuff like this very therapeutic bc Parasocial bonding is *real*, but also it’s never going to take the place of an actual back and forth with a trusted expert. I’ve had a few traumatic experiences with therapists plus a few useless ones, so I’m taking a break from therapy to try to sort stuff out independently, but I’m looking forward to getting to have the kind of discussions I picture again someday.
When I heard this model, I immediately thought about my graduate program with many male Skinner psychologists. I grew up among people who practiced fundamentalist Christianity. My family's church was far less controlling, yet I was sent to hell regularly. I am still working through that. I am 70.
Love the idea of Dr. Hassan coming back to SLC and doing a training for coaches and therapists! 👍👏
Absolutely fascinating 👏
New subscriber from UK 🇬🇧
Got a lot of back episodes to watch 😊
Hello newbie, some of the my favourite interviews are the Maven ones.
@@ceb591 Thank you 😊 I will take a look,
Mandy 🥰
This is so interesting. I’m originally from Utah but left when I was 9. My family are not Mormons but a few converted under pressure. Some eventually left, some are still practicing Mormons. I am truly grateful that my first 9 years of life were surrounded by Mormons because our community was so safe & truly nurturing. All neighboring homes were drug and alcohol free, stable, two parent homes. My school teachers were all LDS women deeply committed to civility & kindness. I wasn’t raised with religion because my parents were black sheep so I feel like I got the best of both worlds. I work in high poverty areas in Seattle with heartbreaking child neglect and substance abuse running rampant. Single mothers are the norm. It’s a mess.
X Pentecostal! One time I burnt my finger on the stove and my aunt asked did I get burned, I said yes! She replied back to me by saying well, if that burnt can you imagine how hell will be!? So many stories of fear had been planted in my head!
In the middle of Cult of trump on audio right now. It’s really helping me to understand what’s happening around me.
Dr Hassan mentioned a few times over 3 episodes, that a big part of his conversion to the Moonies was sex. He believed that he might find love/sex with one of the 3 young women that recruited him.
I think this is a very important concept. I grew up in Seventh-Day Adventism and I know as I became teenager with hormones pumping, I was motivated to become more serious about that church when I thought it would make me more appealing to teenage SDA girls.
At about age 20 I left the SDAs upon learning their female prophet (Ellen G White) plagiarized much of what she wrote.
After leaving SDAism I became a Baptist and looking back, I was motivated to adopt the Baptist faith, doctrines and testimony, to some degree to fit into that community and especially to be attractive to young Baptist women.
thank you for the chapters!
I'm self-recruiting into the cult of Hassan. What a great human being.
I appreciated this episode. Thanks to all.
you gotta read, baby, read
you gotta read, baby, read
the more you read
the more you know
KNOWLEDGE IS POWER
POWER IS FREEDOM
AND I WANT IT !!!!!!!
With abused women of narcissist abuse it's called fog fear obligation and guilt coming out of this kind of relationship is freedom but painful because of the cognitive distance again thank you
Wow, such a gem, thanks for having Dr Hassan on. I would love to know more about his treatment with ex scientologists. Would love to do the course, but exchange rates suck for us. much love.
I’m 68, 30 years out. It’s not that easy - only 1 year to recover? I still struggle. There are so many things I loved and miss to this day. Dr. Hassan doesn’t really seem to understand, and I really dislike his analogy about “intercourse with a woman”. This episode made me feel so awful. I cried for hours.
I have a soft spot for cult members and ex-members. Since 2008 , I noticed what Dr Hassan is saying, but I admire the science and scientific terms, especially as a clinical pharmacists who loves psychiatry neurology and neuroscience and psychiatric pharmacy.I have noticed many of them are smart and soft hearted. They may have Borderline personality disorders. I love this topic.
The Mormon church hits all the red flags for me 🤷🏻
Mind-blowing. Both parts. I listened to it holding my breath. Haven't been in a high demand religion myself although all religions are somewhat demanding and scaring. But so many things in this interview were relatable to everyday life. Thanks so much for doing it.
Ps. My first introduction to Samantha was awful, here she was like a whole different person. I loved her input.
I just restarted my phone at 7:00 because I thought I lost my audio. Thanks hahaha
The exchange around minute 55 is really interesting. Not sure Steven really appreciated how much learned helplessness there is among life long Mormons that need help connecting the dots.
I’ve heard so many Mormons say they like not having to think or make decisions.
Blown for Good is one of many ex-Scientologist youtube channels that can be very helpful to those who were ever involved in any cult.
About “stay away from apostates “ in our case; they even alienated us much earlier the time we left; just because we were showing signs of having free mind. So, they started spying on us; even family members saying lies about us. It is horrible.
I stopped having my daughter attend YW at 12 because she was getting depressed, she wanted to be a business woman, and they told her she had to be only a wife & mom. The church members shunned me when they saw me in public or at church.
She had her own business at 12, she’s now 39 and extremely successful, including having 3 kids and a husband.
Having come out of a cult the spot i completely identify me with your guest is when the idea of the part your pride plays. You’re special, the fact that you get the message means God is with you and guiding you, and if you leave you will be in hell. It all plays a part with your mind.
This is really fascinating as a never mo who did grow up with some non-traditional religious structures around me. I grew up (and still am somewhat) a follower of an Indian guru (Amma). It never felt cultish to me, however I'm aware that lots of Indian gurus are very much cult leaders, so as I'm now in my early 20's, im re-evaluating my beliefs. To be honest, I'm not sure what i believe in terms of the divine, but from my assessment of the bite model, it certainly isnt a cult, which is nice to know.
Great information. Thank you for your incredible podcast!
Wow the going back to the past part is a Neville Goddard Manifestation technique called Revision. I’ve never been in a high demand group but have researched a lot and feel there’s some worrying online spiritual groups - although I do believe in spiritual concepts some of the online content can become cult like. You’ve touched on this before around Teal Swan. Neville Goddard is a helpful manifestation teacher. He taught that the individual has power and how to reclaim that. And that god or the spiritual is not found outside of the self. Anyway he has a technique called Revision which is exactly what you describe about re imagining the past. It can change the present and future. Very interesting. Loved these two episodes. Thanks for all you do
john, I appreciate your honesty and clear thinking
One reason for leaving is abuse and trauma Somebody in the church hurt you Of course if you're a convert and you find out the contradictions and doctrines and all of that makes you question and then you make up your mind to leave and take your name off the list that's what I did when I married my 3rd husband I didn't know what a single's word was but I found out and ended up married but then I got abused and of course I studied the scriptures like crazy and there were so many contradictions I couldn't believe it I was a convert didn't stay in the church very long and I took my name off the list and left and yes those comments about why did you have a problem with the doctrine or what was going on But anyway you're right about the things they say when you leave thank you so much for sharing this I've had Steve Hudson's book for quite some time thank you so much
thank you for the open discussion.......very helpful for me
Thank you, again. Watching and Listening from Alaska.
🕊
Excellent guest. Thank you
Dr. Steven Hassan radiates goodness and wisdom. THANKYOU.
It feels like Dr Hassan keeps mistaking the video as therapy whereas John is trying to analyze the systemic problems in Mormonism that make it a high control group
I can tell John really felt that comment since he read and liked it on a video that's a full year old. I get you John
But why did nobody bring him a cup of tea with some honey??? 😅
Setting aside for a moment whether Ayn Rand had a cult, that was a gross mischaracterization of her idea of selfishness. I have known hundreds of people over the years who claimed to be adherents of her philosophy, some of whom knew her, and represent her ideas professionally, and none of them would agree that she advocated for taking things from others because you desire them, or even taking from others without regard for their consent. Setting up a strawman by implying that Rand held a conventional view of what is, and is not, selfish is not honest.
I was married to a narc for 23yrs so I know all about manipulation. Coercion control and combative behaviour when you decide to end the toxic bond you have….they remain “squeaky clean” in regards to their extended family…while you will always be the villain for walking away from their toxicity they projected at you, behind closed doors 🙏💗🙏
This guy is great
I’ve got the first book you mentioned and I’ll be getting the course, thank you 🙏
For the watchers and listeners there is a brief mute about 6 minutes in or so.
49:00 Example of thought stopping: “Reason cannot replace revelation.” -Elder Renlund, April 2022, Your Divine Nature and Eternal Destiny
He's a brilliant thinker, I would love to have a beer or two with him on Mormon grounds.