"Just Play More Removal!" ft. Jim LaPage | EDHRECast 275
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- Опубліковано 27 вер 2024
- Rules Committee member Jim LaPage joins us to discuss the argument that never seems to go away.
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Thanks for the Shout Out. Unfortunately I'm not related to the Knorr family that's responsible for the Ranch Dressing😂.
First time I’ve seen a person they shouted out actually respond 😂
Knorr is the Swedish word for a pigs tail, we say it with a hard K tho
I love the quote " I'm not going to remember who won, but I'll remember how I felt and if it was fun"
Commander bucketlist: flipping the same card that I shuffled in my deck from a chaos warp
It happened in my pod _twice_ last week. Out of four Chaos Warps the guy cast due to bringing it back from the GY, the receiving player got the same card twice. In an ETB Marath deck. Shuffled great, cut multiple times, all that.
The game did not go very long after that.
My buddy just had that happen. It was his first time casting Chaos Warp, and he targeted a Mana Cannons with it. I was explaining what the card does, and how it works. I also threw in an anecdote about how I had seen someone flip the same card they shuffled away with a warp before, but it's super rare to happen. The Mana Cannons player then offers my buddy the deck to cut, he cuts it, and Mana Cannons is flipped back off the top. Buddy hangs his head in shame, and the table riots in laughter
It's always funny when it happens on Magic Online because it looks like nothing happened
The best feeling 🎉
I had it happen with a Villis Broker of Blood in my Yawgmoth deck.
The sister to "run more removal" that ticks me off just as much is "what do you mean there's no commander for [strategy], Kenrith and Morophon exist!"
But golos is banned
Kenrith I can see being dumb, but Morphon is literally meant to work with whatever tribe you want. Honestly I think folks wouldn't be so dismissive if it weren't 7 mana, but then if it were at a more "viable" cost it'd just be that more omnipresent and a problem in its own way.
@@Tuss36not all strategies are tribal tho so good thing Kenrith can do whatever
Honestly yeah. Kenrith is a "catch all" that rarely fits for a specific strategy outside of something flavorful. Morophon is slightly less egregious but it's still disheartening that your only option for a creature type you like is a catch all, like a consolation prize. I LOVE Morophon, he ran my 5 color Eldrazi deck for years, but I was more than happy to swap for Ulalek when they released, for a commander that specifically cares about my card type and isn't a blanket for all creature types
@@hobez64 Ngl, the three 5-color Eldrazi commander options are all painfully boring imo. Ulalek being more or less a mana-gated Miirym, Morophon just being a big fat cost reducer and anthem, and Azlask being a fatter anthem with extra steps. Not gonna say any of them are bad, in fact I'd honestly go as far as to say all of them are pretty juiced, they all just have about as much flavor as they have color; depending on how you count it, all or none.
That Serge from Rhystic Studies is a very intelligent and well-spoken person. Great episode!
Someone should host a game night with Jim serge and Sam.
“I would ask ‘what are they feeding those prairie boys?’ but it’s just wheat!” -Ben Wheeler, 2023
🤣
Reminds me of this sketch from College Humour of how similar Grant and Keith looked
ua-cam.com/video/MxJJ2LBI604/v-deo.htmlsi=FHn9sanE87Phk_Rs
I played a game this past week against a dad and his young son. I didn't know either. The kid was really struggling with lands (playing a 5-color omnath, poor kid) and was obviously getting frustrated. His dad was trying to help, but the kid wanted to give up. He was talked into staying in the game and a turn later, got the land he needed, and then Omnath went off. Another turn later and his dad and I were both dead to his creatures on their second combat phase that turn. I felt excited for him and it was a lot of fun watching that deck turn around. We all thought it was a great game. It felt like that's what Commander is supposed to be about.
Jim should do more podcasts
A lot of game plans don't work without removal. Magic at its core is a game of interaction, if you can't or are unwilling to, you have accepted a lot of game situations you will be unable to participate in. If you're happy with that choice, I have no issue and will gladly help you find things for your deck theme. EDH is a social game, often with strangers with whom rule 0 convo is not always tenable or useful, and if you still want to play you accept a certain amount of adapting how you play the game. No deck or player exists in a vacuum. Concessions will (and probably should be made) by all parties the more they play.
(Edit) I am talking specifically about one for one removal, board wipes are different to me. I consider them a clearly different class of card.
On a personal note, I think ppl are to willing to remove things a little too swiftly. I’ve found waiting for key moments or key cards to remove goes further than just shot gunning down everything that shows up.
Yeah threat assessment is very important.
This is so very true! I've seen many Birds of Paradises Swords to Plowshares'd in games where a huge Eldrazi/Praetor/Colossus came down couple of turns later and proceeded to sweep the table.
I think some people get stuck in this "mana efficiency"-mindset where their train of thought goes something like "I have 2 mana open right now, but I know that next turn I will tap out to play my commander, so I better kill something right now" and the train kind of stops there. But is there anything in the table actually worth killing? Just because you could, didn't mean that you should.
Great discussion, the amount of removal is indeed related to your power level/playgroup and experience you want to achieve.
Something to consider is if everyone at the table is playing 10 pieces of removal in their deck that's a 30% chance that one of the 3 people will have an answer for the 4th person's threat.
If players are using less then you need to be aware that those big plays are going to resolve and either end the game or cause it to swing back and forth violently.
Thanks for this comment. The whole point of play more removal is to have it when you need it, you can't cast what you havn't drawn
If we assume 10 pieces of removal per deck, then there is an 89% chance one of your opponents has a piece of removal in their first 7 cards
If we are at turn 3, so every player has drawn 10 cards total, there is a 96% chance that one of your opponents has seen a piece of removal
Now being able to play it is a different thing, they need the mana and colors for that, they may need other resources if it's something like Bone Shards, their interaction may not work for your stuff (e.g. enchantments are hard for black to deal with, your stuff may be hexproof,...), but just someone having some form of removal is likely
You won't always win the game, you won't always have the card you need in hand: even if it's in the deck somewhere, and sometimes you'll be just a bit behind another player before they pop off when you had the game in hand as well.
Just try to have fun, be respectful and kind to one another, and do your part to create an atmosphere people enjoying playing in! You don't always have to have a reason or excuse as to why someone was allowed to do this or that, or the classic if only "this" had been different, they wouldn't have done it at all!
Remember kids, player removal is permanent removal
The best mono-red counterspell ;)
As a Firesong and Sunspeaker player, I never have too little removal in my deck 😂
With every card hitting the battlefield these days being an avengers level threat, it's like my whole deck needs to be just removal or it's over on turn 4/5.
It's like traffic. "Just play more removal" "just one more lane, I promise it'll fix traffic"
So I guess you'll be adding in some extra removal then.
Jim and Joey together just makes my life a better place!
My small playgroup: I built decks that quickly outpaced the others. As a result I removed all interaction. They gradually sped up and I stopped winning every game. Now I'm adding removal back in. It's been a fun and educating process! Our average level is well below LGS casual.
In my opinion, removal is an important aspect of every deck, but should not be the focus of casual matches. Unless you're playing in a competitive environment (cEDH) players should be able to experience the joy of all the big splashy cards and elaborate janky combos that commander has been known for. Every deck should be able to answer the first couple massive game ending threats that hit the table so that games don't end before everybody has shown off what their decks can do but nobody wants to sit around for 3+ hours in top deck mode just hoping to draw into more velocity because everything you've played was immediately removed. I think most people run a reasonable amount of removal, the bigger issue in my opinion is that people don't run enough card draw / card selection. Even straight up precons play really well if you have your entire deck to play from., People simply don't value seeing more cards enough in EDH and that's why board wipes and other effects that reset game states are so brutal for so many players to handle. I love the big splashy spells that the casual environment of commander lets me play, but you don't get to enjoy those things unless you run enough "deck smoothers" (ie: mana ramp / card draw). Sure having more removal solves the issue of single cards winning the game, but more removal doesn't usually make the experience better for everybody involved, it more often than not (in casual groups) just delay the innevitable without adding anything interesting to the experience.
What's been nice about my playgroup is that most of us genuinely want outside perspectives/input from one another. This could come in the form of optimizing to making a deck more fun. Recently we noticed that I happened to win a disproportionately high amount of games and people thought my decks were just too powerful until I laid out a couple of my decks and they realized that I wasn't running decks with a crazy amount of ultra staples or overly broken non sense compared to other people. The biggest observation that was made is that my decks tended to run more ramp, card draw, and lands in comparison to othee people's decks. Some people tried increasing these veggies and what do you know? Their decks started to function at a more desirable capacity than before. Aome people even took out cards that they just weren't having fun with and included more enjoyable cards for them. It's been awesome for our play experience (I was honestly getting a little tired of winning so much lol).
Never leave that pod
@@JonReid01 agreed.
Out of interest, what sort of number of lands, ramp and draw were the other people running compared to you? Was it egregious, or just a little different?
@@chrisperrell2843 I remember several decks running less than 10 pieces of card draw and ramp in decks where their commander would do neither. Many decks were also running 34 or less lands and often not compensating in any way like with MDFC'S for example. Some were fairly justifiable with low curves, but those decks still had issues with card draw and would get mana screwed anyways.
It seems to be symptomatic of netdecking - people copy card balances from highly-optimised online decks, forgetting that these decks can afford to run light on land because they have few or zero taplands, copious colour fixing, and rocks that come down turn one or two untapped instead of 3-5. Or sometimes they want to put a card in and it's 'just one card' so they cut a land and forget they did this four or five times now and never put them back in.
I actually run a fair bit of removal in my Yarok deck, but I make it all creatures with etbs to be on theme, which is great when I can keep recycling my Noxious Gearhulk, but when I meet an Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines my deck cries. Sometimes thematic removal just doesn't cut it. 💀
Yeah, I have a few remove permanents in instants and sorceries in Breya in case anti-artifact enchantments or creatures. When you have narrow strategies, the more it is breakable with single piece of hate, that you opponent's deck could afford. Decks are ever evolving with each new shiny answer that added to meta.
That is, ETB hate is popular because ETB creatures are popular between every colour, not even Yarok, so I understand the pain.
I loved all the shout outs to Prof's show Dies to removal! Also I love Jim, so this was all around a great show
Thank you for the episode. Recent experience I had at a lgs. My mono red chandra tribal deck got called "cedh" or "too competitive" because I have been slowly building my decks with more removal.
Reason I bring this up is I find it interesting that even if I am not the player playing the "too powerful" cards, I am still contributing to a not fun game when I am playing too much removal. But I feel pushed to playing alot of removal because of the number of "must remove" threats in the game.
My Philosophy when it comes to this is to run more card draw and more ways to reuse cards, so instead of hoping to draw removal at the right time, I will draw enough cards to eventually find it and in the process find more fun things to do.
And when possible, I link removal to creatures that can be blinked or copied or reanimated. This way, fun possibilties get multiplied while removal cards in and off themself are usefull, but most of the time not really fun
I'm glad you guys talked about "removal within theme." One of my recent most memorable moments was a game I played my Gahiji deck, where my removal also gives people creatures (Contraband Livestock, Generous Gift, Rampage of the Clans), someone snuck in a "tryhard" deck (with Mana Crypt and other fast mana). One of the guys at the table was getting upset about how the "tryhard" player was overtaking the game and I looked over at his board and asked, "Is that an 11/11?" On my turn I used Mercy Killing on it and in his compromised mentalstate he asked, "How are 11 1/1s going to help?" to which I happily replied, "Those are 11 5/1s if they swing over there." *me pointing towards our "tryhard acquaintance* His mental state quickly made a 180 as we worked together to knock out our "tryhard acquaintance" who was going to end the game on his next turn. The funny thing was that our "tryhard acquaintance" was "that guy" who Joey talked about; he was quite upset that he got KO-ed by a gimmick with his powerful deck.
Great discussion as always. I genuinely dislike when people want to play lower-power decks, and the response is 'I can help you make the deck better'. Thats not what they said, they want to do something different. 'Get gud scrub' gets so old
As someone who has given this type of advice- this was really helpful in terms of other ways I could frame or elaborate that feedback to be more helpful! I also try not to tell any individual flatly to "run more removal" but put it in a way like, well, these powerful cards are out there so it's good to have some broad answers in your deck if you're finding that you can't deal with them. Oftentimes this relates to like specific types of card hate- like have at least 1 answer for a problematic enchantment or artifact, etc.
I do feel some of these ideas vary so much from player-to-player. Personally, I do enjoy playing threats that *NEED* to be answered, and even if they are removed immediately, I do actually find that fun. Those cards are almost like a *removal check* and if someone does get rid of it I just feel like- "nice, you had what you needed." That's a fun part of the game for me, making those gambles on which answers your opponents have at any given time. I feel like I just consider that part of good magic, it's something I enjoy.
So for that reason sometimes it does irk me when people complain about a powerful creature or threat that needs to be answered- that feels a little myopic to me. If those cards are disallowed- then yeah, you truly don't need to run as much removal, but in my opinion that's really warping to the balance of the game- to have that attitude of like "you can't play threats that are too strong because they break a social contract."
So idk, it's a lot to think about, as always the most important thing is to communicate and be kind with the people you are around.
P.S.
Conversely, if my opponents play a threat that ends the game for me if it goes un-answered, or any game-winning creature, stax-y creature, whatever. I make it a policy to not be salty about that. Those cards *SHOULD* cause me to evaluate my own interaction suites, card draw, deckbuilding in general, if they're a huge problem for my deck. That's fun to me! So, I understand that it's not fun to everyone, but I do actually wish that players were a little more tolerant of powerful pieces *outside of cEDH*, I hate this idea that anyone should feel bad about the cards they're playing, or have to walk on eggshells with regards to their threats. Drawing hate within the game is fine but I don't like the sort of social shaming or calling someone degenerate because they play some powerful threat in their deck. I'd rather that than have 3 hour long games where no one is doing anything threatening, or we have to win by assembling extremely durdley or fiddley combos or gimmicks. Some people love that playstyle! I'd rather straight up lose to the Komas or Vorinclex's of the world on turn 7 or whatever. If I didn't have removal- that's fine, on to the next game!
Finally, sort of a conclusion I've reached- I enjoy greatly playing with friends who are more casual, but I need to keep a less "degenerate" deck on hand to break out. If I'm playing naturally the way I like to play and not self-regulating powerful threats or playing optimal cards- I've found that I enjoy playing against spikier players because they aren't going to groan at my game pieces and are more likely to have the interaction they need / have their own must-answer threats.
"Idk why people are complaining about this card! Just always have a counterspell in hand duh"
I wanna see a commander bucket list video
"I would rather loose a good game than win a bad game" is a very good quote
If you’re looking for even more toxic ways to tell your playgroup to play more removal, try putting more silver bullet cards in your decks! Comes with the added bonus of ruining everyone’s experience and testing the limits of your friendship!
…what?
@@thiagorebelloeg collector ouphe or stony silence against an artifact deck
I think big stax pieces like ouphe, rip, torp orb aren't what people call "silver bullet" in edh. They play that role in modern, but edh silver bullets are way more narrow (red elemental blast, dispel, stifle...) and really earn their label for their efficiency.
"Silver bullets" are hate cards that shut down specific archetypes but are otherwise not that good. Drannith Magistrate in Commander is a classic example (because now nobody gets to cast their commanders), or cards with text like "players can't gain life" @@thiagorebello.
The point of the post is to say that, if someone tells you to just play more removal, you crank up the toxicity by only playing decks designed to hose their deck.
I think what separates stax from hosers is that stax are universally painful while hosers are useless except in specific cases. @@GerBessa
The flavor text of doom blade is so perfect for that final note-
TLDR: "Play more removal." "But... fun"
There keeps being more and more cards that are Kill on Sight. I feel like that is the reason we need to end up playing more removal.
What happens in my playgroup most of the time is that I am the only one playing enough removal. I spend all of my resources trying to keep people from comboing off. And then my other opponents keep building their boards. So our playgroup ends up being "Who can get there first". I notice that I win more when I don't play so much interaction. If they aren't putting in things to stop me, then I just concentrate on my board.
It can be true that EDH players don’t play enough removal and also true that removal can’t solve every problem. A rakdos deck going up against enchantress is going to have an uphill battle getting rid of problematic pieces because their colours aren’t equipped to deal with enchantments. A player with 10 board wipes can’t do much if the threat has counterspells or creature protection their colours can’t hit.
Imo, this indirectly is what led to green being so popular. Green easily has one of the more broad suites of removal options (beast within, hitting artifacts and enchantments with one card, etc.) while not sacrificing much like mono white May be forced to. They also have resilient protection options like heroic intervention, uncounterable and hexproof. A lot of the issue behind green being so ubiquitous is that it does everything, including flexible removal that doesn’t need to take up multiple slots, and being resistant to removal itself.
A lot of really good points, this episode has given me something to think about when it comes to advising my friends
I also try to run removal that is thematic for my commander, like Swan Song in Kangee.
I just finished mowing my lawn, now I get to kick back and relax with EDHREC 🎉
On the one hand I have very, very frequently noticed players not playing enough removal. The "my white deck has swords path gift and nothing else" thing is real, and I've run tables because I just got to sit on multiple value engines for several turns longer than I should have.
But the response there is very rarely "just play more removal forehead" it's "oh you're playing Light-Paws, have you considered adding Ossification? It'll help deal with problems and can trigger Light-Paws at the same time." Even Thallid decks can play on theme removal, so if the conversation is about bulking up Thallids and removal is an issue find stuff that works with their plan.
On the other hand, sometimes your deck has a whole pile of removal and you just don't find it, or maybe you already spent it, or maybe you can't cast it. And the "play more removal" folks crowing over their dumb Elesh Norn or whatever rarely know the composition of your deck.
The helpfulness vs correctness thing is super real and it hurts, because step one of a good deckbuilder trying to help someone is identify the problem but step two is identify the desires and then make suggestions based on both and people just... don't do that.
As a dark souls player just play more removal is just repackaged git gud...
I would also like to share a personal mtg goal of goat napping a goat. There is a red card called goat nap that is your basic act of treason but if you target a goat it gets plus 2/0 and so I want to play a game where someone just happens to have a goat for whatever reason and I just goat nap it
The best thing to do with fraying line is give it flash via shimmer myr or liberator. Cast it just before your next turn and target your commander, ideally better if you're doing it as voltron. Then on your turn you don't pay the 2 and all creatures are exiled
Playing more removal is exactly what earth is doing right now.
Yeah, can’t argue with that assessment.
People saying play more removal when a creature has an etb effect is wild
To be honest, at my LGS at least, players DO NOT run enough removal period. They'll see some scary creature come out and then NONE of them will have removal or any interaction. They're too often building decks that are supposed to play like solitaire instead of realizing that indeed it's a multiplayer game which means that maybe you don't necessarily need more REMOVAL but more INTERACTION in general is important for almost any deck. I can't tell you how many games I sit down and one player starts to run off with the lead and then my two other opponents do not have a SINGLE threat or response to play through various turns to do anything to the leading opponent. We can all say "Yeah well Commander is casual" but there are two extremes to avoid for casual commander: it cannot be JUST for socializing and "hey look at this fun card I wanted to play" or JUST for "hey this is about winning, play cards that will guarantee you win". There should be a happy medium where you deck can actually ENGAGE with other players meaningfully but also still be fun and expressive for yourself.
Why remove a card if you can steal it instead?
Symmetrical effect that still messes up your game plan? Would you rather steal or remove Brooding Saurian when your deck revolves around theft? (Just playing devil's advocate here)
even if every single nonland card in your deck is removal, in a 4 player game it simply can’t be enough to answer everything that hits the board,
removal is definitely important, but running too much of it is imho very counterproductive
Tarnished Citadel is *probably* played because the decks are on Tainted Pact combo lines and that has a deck building requirement that all the cards in your deck have different names. So, if you already have one Basic, you cannot run another.
In 3 color and less decks, the lands you have to pick from that: ETB untapped, produce colored/multi colored, and have different names are few enough that Tarnished Citadel, while not ideal, checks enough boxes to be run.
Jim’s got it right. That comparison about some people trying to play pro-dodgeball against others who are just shooting the breeze for an hour or two before going to work tomorrow are a common problem.
There’s nothing wrong with either group, but issues arise when one (from EITHER side) insists on intruding on the other group’s space and expectations.
I had a situation like that Commander Commander Dranith Magistrate lock happen playing Tibir and Lumia. My whole gameplan is play wizards and burn all the non-fliers to death, and somebody summoned Archetype of Imagination, preventing me from doing the burninating without losing my fragile boardstate *cause Tibir and Lumia's burn ability is symmetrical.
I feel bad for the Zombie on Ad Nauseum.
Could not agree more with the whole sentiment of this episode. Great work on discussing the nuances of commander especially pointing out a topic such as the frustrating statements of unsolicited advice some edh players seem entitled to provide 😂
On the "ban Drannith Magistrate" point by the end. While I haven't seen it in a casual game in pretty long time (due to the fact that we banned it in our casual group), I personally think it interacts with the game of commander in a way that is "against the spirit of commander", which might be a good reason to see it end up on the banlist (that is of course if a large enough population shares that opinion as well as the commander rules committee).
Preventing opponents from casting their commander hard stops a pretty big chunk of decks, aside from the fact that Drannith Magistrate also stops a wide variety of other, popular, decks such as: Suspend, Cascade, Flashback, and any other "cast from exile/library/graveyard".
Ironically it was probably designed to stop the companions, which it now no longer does.
Thank you for covering this topic I really enjoyed the episode! Thank you for the amazing content @EDHRECcast
I only play removal if it synergises with my commander
same! 👍🏼✨
I am new to commander and new to constructing decks myself. After posting my deck for recommendations on reddit I can confirm that about 70ish percent on comments don't help me with anything I ask and just list like 5 removal cards to add.
I am a kind of person that does run a lot of removal, this is because I used to play kitchen table with essentially infinite time but now I play at LGS that has 50 min rounds. I have a deck that can literally never win in 50 min and another (my oldest deck) that rarely wins that fast. When I pull out what I describe as the "no-fun" deck, I am doing it to specifically try to stop people from executing their fast combo. I know when to pull it out and when not to.
Since this topic's perspective is mainly on your interaction toward your opponents board, then "having an interaction is a nice thing to have".
Remember, playing MtG (like any card game out there) is a permutation game. We are limited by our playable cards (hand, commander, etc), and subject to the game's board state and opponent's interaction as well. WE COULD NOT PLAY EVERYTHING FROM OUR LIBRARY AT ALL TIMES, or even if we have the good cards at the moment, its not guaranteed to be resolved (ie. limited mana, sorcery speed, counter/stifle/fizzled, hexproof/indestructible, cannot play/cast, discarded, politics, etc). Simply as that.
In other words, just play a deck "enough to interact" with your opponents and lets you "enjoy" the game.
This is subjective and ranges from heavy to none depending on your objective (ie. competitive or casual).
My deck is literally just removal, it still isn’t enough…
The big issue I see with running too many removals : using mana & cards to handle threats doesn't usually advance your gameplan. That's why people try to find a good balance. If you can manage the whole board with removals but do nothing, it's not exacly a good plan either. That's why people tend to play threats as well and use politics as a deflecting tool.
This is a thoughtful episode. I am going to tune up my underused Memnarch deck, and instead of playing more removal to keep up with the EDH power creep I will steal more.
17:10 very good comment! Playing sport all my life, most of it in a social theme and having to deal with that person that plays too hard, and inevitably hurting themeselves or others. And the commander parallel that its a game that ideally everyone should be getting enjoyment out of. We may like to win, but the main goal is enjoyment and fun. Getting to do cool and fun things!
Have a great day anyone that reads this❤
Tarnished Citadel is mvp in Darien King of Kjeldor, a mono-color deck, even though it's really bad everywhere else. The deck gets a lot of utility off of being able to damage itself every turn in a land slot.
It might also be personal and group preference. I think that decks made in the way that was discussed in the video as 'playing for content' decks is inherently more fun (a little removal, mostly focus on moving game forward). I find that it kinda takes the fun out of playing when there is constant spot removal, followed by a board removal later in the game. It is more fun to me to let people's decks "do the thing," as long as the thing isn't "auto-win". Also, I find that people advocating for more removal usually get really upset when you remove their stuff!
some people tend to forget the goal is more to enjoy their game than it is to win. is winning nice? sure. is it always necessary? no. sometimes it's more fun to get your weird combo off and get lots of laughs.
I got a deck with NO removal or interaction whatsoever and I love it.
It's all curses and defensive mechanics (pollow fort/goad/etc...) to survive until the curses do their thing. :D
This conversation is great unless you’re playing horobi, deaths wail where everything is a kill spell/boardwipe. Then you have all the removal you want.
I am 5 minutes in the episode and it is already great 😂
As to the mention of the "commander bucket list" I've had one situation that I've been able to pull off once in my commander career. I managed to get 280+ counters on my Kyler, Sigardian Emissary with a ton of tokens after a call the coppercoats targeting an opponent who had resolved a storm herd twice. I used a swords to plowshares on one of my tokens to dodge lethal damage from flyers I couldn't block but then topdecked a Rishkar's Expertise and just started giggling like a school girl. I had spent most of the game talking about how I like commander because it lets me do big, dumb, stupid things, so I cast the Rishkar's Expertise and tried to draw 280 cards and decked myself. Still the most memorable game of commander I've ever had!
Great conversation. Thanks.
What about Upping the Average of "Azusa, Lost but Seeking".
Here for the dad jokes, staying for the commander action 😁
Here i am
On the road again
There i am
Up on the stage
There i go
Playing the star again
There i go
Jim LaPage
The conversation about people running more removal isn't just about a single deck. But more about all 4 decks in any given pod. So the numbers that you mention (9 vs. 10 removal spells) should honestly be multiplied by three. Commander is a highly political format. Most times when there is a threat of this level on the table the other three players agree that threat needs to go. In my experience, I am the one answering those threats with no back up. Using my card advantage on 1 for 1 interactions allowing the rest of the table to get ahead.
My favorite playstyle is control. So, naturally, I run an appropriate amount of removal. But nothing absurd. 6-8 single target removal 2-3 board wipes and 2-3 multitarget removal. Depending on the deck. But often times, when playing at my local card shop. I feel like the fun police. I constantly have answers for the big game winning/game breaking threats on the board. But if I don't get a card draw engine going, my resources run dry and someone runs away with the game because no one else has enough removal to answer the major threats. This has happened during sooo many games where I can confidently say that the average player (in my card shop meta) is simply not running enough single target removal.
All this being said, I do agree with the majority of your points about the timing and context with which people are regurgitating the term.
Any time I hear “play more removal” I immediately know the person I’m talking to doesn’t understand the format at all
Same individuals that say “play more removal” are the first to complain about getting targeted. Having their win cons counters or removed, gets them fired up quite quickly.
This is a great message that more players need to hear. Thank you. For me, it is becoming harder to play for the experience and memories without having to optimize more just to have a place at the table.
You know, this was a very insightful podcast! Thanks for sharing! So many insightful thoughts! My only comment I would add is: Just play more removal.
;)
Feel like conflating interaction with removal is a little reductive. I would like to see interaction be discussed as more than just whatever kills this thing i need gone. My play group and I always try to build highly interactive decks because we believe it makes for more enjoyable games, and playing 100% of the time is going to be better than only playing 25% of the time. Some of the best experiences i get out of edh are when the stack gets massive and everyone is responding to triggers with spells and abilities.
It is indeed irksome that people say "interaction" when they really mean removal. Especially annoying when people want more "stack interaction" when really they mean counterspells. Red has redirection/copy effects, and even white and green basically have "counter target spell or ability targeting my thing" spells that just don't explicitly say it, giving hexproof or protection instead.
The only times I've told someone to run more removal is when they outright cry about a card being too good and needing a ban. I think as the commander format picked up in popularity and attracted new players there has been an influx of people constantly complaining and demanding more bannings about every single card that makes an impact verse critically thinking about how to improve their decks to deal with these threats. The generic "add more removal" is usually a reply to the generic "ban this card". Rephrasing the question to be more specific will always receive a more specific answer.
I think the truth is a bit more nuanceed: You want to play the game, and want your opponents to play the game, but that requires having things to answer specific cards that get played regularly (i.e. drannith magistrate, collector ouphe, blind obedience etc.)
This is why I play Teysa, Orzhov Scion.
My commander IS my removal
Removal/interction is the diference in commander and CEDH so if any commander game becoames a mexican standoff and evrybody is holding intecation to try to win a endless stack war casual games are over.
Adding a few pieces of interaction = the same amount of effort as a basketball bootcamp.
Good, that's all I had to hear.
I really love Jim and his knowledge of why they do the things they do!
Jim has a point about White beinf subtractive, however, both Swords and Path give your opponent something in return for their loss. 😅
I'm actually kind of surprised anyone wants Orcish Bowmasters banned? It doesn't at all stop anyone from playing the game
Yeah, maybe its really good in cEDH, but in regular its good, but,.. theres a commander deck worth of cards make for less fun gameplay patterns. I cast it on a casual table and it killed one 1/1 and other than that it was a Lazotep Reaver.
Barbenheimer: Dad Joke Edition
One time I cast Deny the Witch and killed someone. I don’t think I’ll ever top that.
Loved this episode! Love Jim!
I could’ve removed a Winter Orb the other night. But it helped me more than everyone else!
I find it humorous that you mention not seeing Deadeye Navigator on a table for years, I played a game against it last night, and it was part of the win condition.
Lol that’s the darkest joke I’ve heard in a good time. Bravo Dana
A Challenge the stat: Riftsweeper in Myrkul, lord of bones decks. Allows you to return exiled cards to your library including itself when it dies cause of it ETB trigger and how Myrkul, lord of bones first puts the card into exile before the token enters. " It dies to removal" can be counter with it also "dies to player removal"
I think Tarnished Citadel has this niche: you want access to all colors of mana for some other purpose but you're in 2 colors and it functions as a colorless land for you in most cases and that's ok. I play this in my Glissa deck. It's almost all artifacts so Citadel taps for colorless almost all the time. But I also play Etched Oracle because it's an insanely good when you can recur it; but it needs 4 colors of mana and Citadel helps get that for it. I can also see it being good in a deck like Sen Triplets (ick) or other decks where you're taking cards from opponents and still want to be able to activate abilities of colors you don't play.
If you play Elesh mom then I play Merieke lol that’s how that works.
The best part about "play more removal" in response to Orcish Bowmasters existing, is that Oricish Bowmasters IS more removal!
Best comment ever... "I'd rather lose a good game than win a bad one". Unless you're playing competitively, the goal is fun, not winning.
This was a really good discussion!
This show isn’t actually bad. Thanks for the info
Playing more removal is correct, but it's also about about knowing what to remove and when. I think the biggest thing is 'acceptence'. If you don't like playing against Twrgrid you can accept that she could dominate the table and still run your deck. You can still choose to play and have fun or you can choose to try and remove her. There is a saying that says 'no one MAKES you angry you are responding to a thing, but how you respond is still your choice. What I mean is if you sign up to sit down and play with a Twrgrid at the table with Twrgrid you've already accepted to play that game. Just play and have fun when and how you can. Accept that sometimes you are gonna win, sometimes your gonna lose. Sometimes you get the one up, sometimes your opponent does. Just accept what happens and have as much fun as you can.
Dana addressed this comment when he spoke on Chulane and Jim when he mentioned the ‘Kaalia effect’. You are basically saying you are OK with the game being rock, paper, scissors. You have the answer or you do not. If we both match, there is a game played that can be fun (this is where there is some back and forth interaction where both have repeatedly offsetting powerful actions aside from removal). If I just have enough removal, you don’t get to play the game and have fun. If I don’t have enough removal, I don’t get to play the game and have fun. For many players, they would prefer that everyone playing enjoy the game more than 1/3 of the time.
For me I don't run a lot of 1 for 1 removal anymore unless it is versatile like generous gift/beast within/unmaking or hyper efficient like swords/path.
I think a lot of feelings about removal come down to how its used. Like people will fire it off to be mana efficient instead of to actually interact meaningfully with an opponent. With cards like Sheoldred's Edict and Soul Shatter there are options now that turn removal into card advantage as well, which makes it easier to just use them mindlessly and now you're floundering when an actual threat is in play.
I feel this. I built a ghyrson starn kelermorph deck just to enter in my play group's meta. One of our players used to run a game store and multiple decks worth over $500 a piece and has nasty win Conditions. Playing a pre con basically meant you'd never win. I played this new deck (and while i understand...) the entire group is now actively targeting me. And going from no one caring that i was there to everyone at the table trying to remove my commander at every waking moment is jarring. And it took awhile to accept it.