The Great Millennium Debate | Keith Foskey Vs. Lucas Curcio - Is Revelation 19-20 Chronological?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 7 вер 2024
- This is the Great Millennium debate.
Donny Budinsky moderates this formal debate between Keith Foskey and Lucas Curcio.
Debate Topic - The Millennium
Debate Resolution - Revelation 19-20 are chronological.
Affirmative - Lucas Curcio
Negative - Keith Foskey
Moderator - Donny Budinsky
This debate is hosted by Standing For Truth Ministries.
Keith Foskey - / @conversationswithacal...
Lucas Curcio - / @methodministries
End Times Theology Debates Hosted by Standing For Truth - • Dispensationalism and ...
To Support the Ministry:
www.paypal.com...
Standing For Truth Ministries OFFICIAL Website:
standingfortru...
Support Standing For Truth:
creationistclo...
/ darwindebunked
Interviews Hosted by Standing For Truth:
• Must Watch Interviews ...
Debates hosted/moderated by Standing For Truth:
• Debates Hosted by Stan...
DISCLAIMER - The views shared by guests on Standing For Truth are not necessarily representative of the views of Donny and Standing For Truth Ministries.
The Evolution CHALLENGE:
standingfortru...
PLAYLIST: • The 2022 Evolution Deb...
End Times Theology Dawn of the Antichrist (Book by Donny Budinsky):
Black and White - www.amazon.com...
Full Colour - www.amazon.com...
The Endogenous Retrovirus Handbook (Dismantling the Best Evidence for Common Descent):
Black and White version - www.amazon.com...
Full Color Version plus Variant Cover - www.amazon.com...
Special Creation UPDATED and EXPANDED:
Black and White - www.amazon.com...
FULL COLOR - www.amazon.com...
My (Donny/SFT) 2022 Debates: • My (Donny/SFT) 2022 De...
My (Donny/SFT) 2021 Debates: • My (SFT) 2021 Debates/...
My (Donny/SFT) 2020 Debates: • My (SFT) 2020 Debates
Ancestry - standingfortru...
Refuting Arguments for Evolution and an Old Earth - standingfortru...
The Genesis Flood - standingfortru...
Biblical Creation Basics - • Biblical Creation Basics
The Independent Origins Handbook - www.amazon.com...
Thanks for having us, Donny! You're a fantastic host! Thanks to Keith as well for debating!
It seems, to be consistent, you must conclude the Kingdom that was at hand when King Jesus began His ministry (Matt 3:2; 4:17; 10:7; Mark 1:15; Luke 21:31) was also an “already, but not yet” Kingdom. However, Jesus judged the Nation of Israel for rejecting Him, and gave the Kingdom, that was given to them, to the Gentiles instead. So, how can there be a future opportunity at the Kingdom when they've already lost it to the Gentile nations (and the Nation of Israel was destroyed in 70 AD)?
Matthew 21:43 KJV
Therefore say I unto you, *_The kingdom of God shall be taken from you,_* and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Now the Kingdom Jesus gave to the Gentiles could be classified an “already but not yet”, only insofar as Jesus has not yet returned physically. So Daniel's fourth kingdom, Rome, has not been physically vanquished yet. But Daniel said Christ's Kingdom would be “set up” during the Roman Empire, and it would also consume it, and the three empires before it, and that that Kingdom (Christ's) would stand forever.
Daniel 2:44 KJV
*_And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed:_* and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but *_it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever._*
And Paul said Jesus defeated all powers and principalities on the Cross. He said the only enemy left is death. Therefore, when Christ returns, the Resurrection and Glorification of the bodies of the Saints, conquers death. How can there be another literal 1000 years of sin and death, if He conquered it all with His Coming?
Colossians 2:15 KJV
And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
The last Empire, Roman, is put down when He physically returns. The brightness of His Coming destroys the Babylonian Harlot Church of Rome and her antichrist papacy (seat of the man of sin, the son of perdition). So again, how can there be another 1000 years of original Adamic mankind, when the resurrection begins the eternal state of the redeemed, immortal human race in Christ?
From spiritual defeat to actual physical defeat:
1 Corinthians 15:24-26 KJV
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
[25] *_For he must reign,_* till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
[26] *_The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death._*
Disappointed… I was expecting you to debate each other wearing the armor 😂
⚔️
😆
HILARIOUS
Thanks!
So one isn't allowed to have scripture interpret scripture even when the passages are about the same topic? That's crazy talk. Context is key but avoiding the reat of scripture because your viewpoint falls apart is also wrong because not scripture is of any private interpretation.
Exactly - and this is especially true with the book of Revelation. The clear passages should explain the symbolic passages.
1:51:34 Death is swallowed up in victory at Christ's return FOR BELIEVERS WHO ARE GLORIFIED WITH HIM, but death continues for the ones who were not partakers of the resurrection of the righteous.
In fact, on one level, death was already thwarted for believers alone : we are "alive from the dead" (Ro 6). How, if death had already had us? In Christ, death is thwarted.
"Already, but not yet" : "The path of the righteous is as the shining sun, which gets brighter and brighter until full noon day."
Death will be defeated FOR THOSE IN CHRIST, but not for the rest, just as it is already the case.
"Tomorrow will be as today, only moreso."
Exegesis INCLUDES other passages where the subject is discussed. Revelation is not a stand alone letter. Lucas does not believe in exegesis.
@@TheDisqualifiedPreacher *Revelation.
@@methodministries fixed. Thanks.
I smell a contradiction…
Wouldn’t spiritual resurrection require spiritual death? If we’re always alive in Christ after salvation(even after physical death), when does the spiritual death take place?
Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Read the whole chapter and you will see how you died spiritually
This is a topic I'm not fully persuaded on. I lean heavily to pre mil though but there's a few niggles I need to dive deeper with. I'm thinking that only saints go into the millennium perhaps 🤔. But then that brings different niggles.
I do think we need to go back to garden of Eden conditions though for the 1000 years to fully complete God's original plan.
I'm just going to keep praying and learning until I'm settled in this subject.
Great debate guys thank you! And thank you as always SFT for hosting. God bless all from England 🏴 🇬🇧 🙏 🙌 ❤️
The comments people biased against premillennialism
Just a heads up, some of us A-mil are partial preterist. Which position totally answers your issues with the resurrection.
Great debate! Thanks!
Love how Keith Foskey responds two questions about all the passages that contradict Amillennialism...
"I'm not going to exegate that passage"
That is airtight proof that any Calvinist or a millennialist does not submit to the scriptures, but rather they stand over the scriptures and dictate to them.
The prophecies mean nothing to them. That's why Keith foskey is sitting there with a poster on his wall celebrating the murder by Simon and Levi of the people of Shechem.
Israel cursed their anger, but Keith celebrates it, like a good Calvinist.
Hmmm. Another instance where a premil guy says that Jesus isn't reigning because things subjectively look bad to him at this point in history, as if our modern era is some kind of benchmark from which to compare other historical periods. Meanwhile, Scripture affirms that Jesus is enthroned at God's right with all power in heaven and earth reigning until all enemies are under His feet. I'll go with Jesus, thank you.
God is always reigning, but 1 Cor 15:24-25 can certainly be in agreement with the pre-mil position of a physical kingdom of Christ on earth for 1,000 years.
@@ProjectCould there has never been a time when God, who is King of the universe, hasn't reigned. The issue is with mankind as God's vice-regent, who was created to be the physical manifestation of God's reign in the earth that God created (Gen. 1:26-28; Psalm 8). What humanity was created to be but failed to be because of sin and rebellion, was restored in the person and work of Jesus--truly God and truly human as God incarnate. As a faithful covenant partner, the man Jesus was obedient unto death, and was raised as the first man of the new creation. Being exalted and enthroned at God's right hand, the man Jesus fulfills God's original calling for humanity as God's vice-regent over all the earth.
Jesus, as the true human, has been reigning for about the last 2000 years. That isn't to say that Jesus, as God, didn't reign before. As mentioned, God has always reigned, but mankind has not, at least not in the way God designed. Mankind, as the image of the invisible God--God's living statue, is restored and renewed in Jesus: the last Adam and the first man of the new creation, who now sits at God's right hand having all power in heaven AND earth.
@@PreachingPolitics We both live in a world full of sin. Jesus still reigns, but for simplicity it’s a reign of forbearance of the wicked, and of rounding up the elect.
The reign premillennialists see spoken of in the Bible is of a physical man sitting on a literal physical throne in Jerusalem, reigning over the nations in righteousness, when the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as waters cover the sea.
@@ProjectCould I'm familiar with the presupposition that the character Christ's reign now will be different in a future millennium. I used to hold a premil position. I just don't think it holds up to scrutiny, nor do I share your presupposition that the reign of Christ is EITHER for forbearance of the wicked OR for the King to rule in righteousness, demarked by different time periods.
It is now, not some future time, that the gospel is going out to the nations. It is now that Jesus is physically enthroned at God's right hand from Zion--the heavenly Jerusalem. It is now the Lord reigns in righteousness, and that our righteousness is of the Lord (see Isa. 32; Jer. 23:4-6; 33:14-16; Isa. 45:24-25; 54:13-17: Rom. 3:21-22; I Cor. 1:30; 2 Cor. 5:21). It's absurd to think that He is NOT reigning in righteousness. It is now that the temple of the Lord is not in one singular location, but instead is all over the earth with every believer individually and corporately being the Temple of God and part of Christ's body.
Indeed, it is now that the Lord forbears final judgment, as he is willing that none should perish and all come to repentance. When Christ returns and brings judgment, that's it. No second chances; no extra 1000 years for someone to think about it and change their mind. That is why there is such an emphasis on the Lord's delay in 2 Pet. 3:8-9. Now is the day of salvation. If people could continue to get saved after Christ's coming, if final judgment is not for another 1000 after that, then there is no reason for Christ to delay.
It is now that all those in Christ "know the Lord" and are all taught of God, from the least to the greatest. It is now that there is still death, marriage, sinners, sin, war, rebellion, the curse, and the salvation of God's people. When Jesus returns, raising the dead, this present wicked age will come to a close with the age to come coming in its full manifestation. In the age to come there is no more sin, death, war, Satan, marriage, childbirth, etc. (Luke 20:34-36). I think we would both agree that the millennial reign is not the perfected kingdom, which comes about after the thousand years and final judgment. The same inaugurated, mixed and imperfect kingdom that you think is the millennium is the same one I speak of. You just think that it is in the future, whereas I see it as taking place right now.
@@PreachingPolitics There’s much of what you just said that I think I can agree with. I indeed believe the Lord reigns in righteousness in heaven right now, and that now we can worship wherever we are on earth.
I would admit that one could rather easily conclude that there’s no premillennial millennium based on say parables about Christ’s future coming, the simplified eschatology of the book of John, and some broad statements in the Old Testament.
At the same time, I see complex eschatology plainly taught in the Olivet Discourse, Paul’s teaching on the end times in 1st and 2nd Thessalonians, the book of Revelation, the book of Daniel, the future of physical Israel from the prophets - and beautifully established as apostolic doctrine in Romans 11 amongst other places.
I would rather let the complex details (multiple comings, multiple judgements, abomination of desolation, rapture, Daniel’s 70th week, etc…) remain as is, and trust that the simpler eschatology statements were never meant to undo the precise detail of the more in-depth end times passages. A great example is how in John 6 we have teaching on the last day - when the dead are raised up. A temptation for the amil or post-mil view is to point this out as a simple eschatology that undoes pre-mil. But I submit to you that the Lord Jesus was plainly referring to Daniel 12:12-13 - which establishes a complex eschatology that fits in the 70th week in premillennialism.
Your issue with Christ destroying the nations vs fire from heaven is silly. Who is sending the fire from heaven? Your argument is akin to saying that the flood drowned the earth not God's judgment. God is the author.
25:15 ; 45:55
Lucas needs to quit saying "James White would tear you up for that". James has consistently shown Leighton how John 3:16 is consistent with Romans 9 and John 6.
I'm largely with you Keith but there is not A or The antichrist. The 4 usages in John are not describing an individual but the pervading spirit ie: 1 John 4:3
Wow. Lucas does not think we should go outside of Rev. 19 and 20 to explain those chapters. Really? There is a lot of similarity between dispensationalists and pre-millenialists. They chop up the Bible into bits and pieces instead of understanding it as a whole. To understand any doctrine it must be harmonious with the whole Bible.
Great debate. Foskey crushed it.
Gog and Magog isn't a war, it's the Antichrist (Gog), leading the nations (Magog) to war against the “beloved city” located all over the earth, which is the “spiritual” New Jerusalem of the New Covenant.
Old earthly Jerusalem was called the “Holy City '' not the beloved city, and it was located on only one tiny patch of land, not the whole earth. There isn't an old Jerusalem Millennium, only a war on the heavenly Jerusalem. The Millennial Kingdom is the time of the New Covenant Church.
So Chapter 19 and 20 are two recapitulations of history from two different angles. There are seven of them in Revelation. Chapter 19 ends with Christ's Return, and Chapter 20 ends with the Return and the Judgment. Then Chapter 21 is sequential to 20, and introduces the eternal state, after the Judgment.
Revelation 20:8-9 KJV
And shall go out to deceive *_the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle:_* the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
[9] And they went up on *_the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city:_* and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Does Lucas believe there is a literal pit?
Nations in greek means a people not a government. Your argument against the binding of the strong man being different falls apart.
The Parousia happened in 70ad, & that ‘s when the millennium started. Debate over 😎. -cheers, Paul
The millenium is 1000 years of peace. That has never happened
Calvinism is unbiblical...period.
Actually calvinism is another term for biblical Christianity. (Charles Spurgeon)
@@loganabbott240 I don't give 2 shits what men think. I go by scripture.
@@johnny_favorite OK, so I don't give 2 ***** what you think