I agree, but he does take long pauses and stretches his words a lot, which is just the way he does it and that's fine, but I usually speed up the video 1.25x and it makes him sound like any normal person talking. The amount of depth he puts into his analysis is still insane though, he presents a lot of examples and that's awesome.
tbf in this video the tanks are building basically fully against AD making kraken better. BotRK scales with lord dominik's unlike the true dmg. so while kraken slayer dmg gets bigger going into late game with its B-AD scaling, botrk can do the same with armorpen and damage amplification (double giantslayer passives, abbyssal,pta...)
You're right about Abyssal and PTA but I kinda doubt the armor pen on the %currenthp damage from botrk would outdo the 0.45 (post-buff) bAD scaling on Kraken Slayer
The thing is , the % burn items like liandrys are extremely good right now, they were designed for health stackers but due to the 4 second DOT they work against anyone
Especially since liandry's also has ramping penetration, making that burn damage (2.5% max hp/s for 4 seconds with a demonic embrace as well) even more effective.
3 роки тому+41
Some quick thoughts : You're talking about "current" %HP damage. The results would not be the same with total %HP damage (like, compare Divine Sunderer to Kraken Slayer). Blade of the Ruined King is a legendary item, Kraken Slayer is a mythic one. It's normal to expect the mythic one being better than the legendary (although this assumption isn't always true). You may (should ?) take into account the fact that Blade of the Ruined King will more than often be built alongside Guinsoo's Rageblade. This will multiply its on-hit damage by 4/3 (assuming packs of 3 autos). Comparing true damage with physical damage without taking into account any armor penetration will almost always result in true damage winning. If I don't have any armor penetration, I won't even try to hit a tank with Sunfire and Thornmail. I could even kill myself without the tank even needing to hit me xD But I understand the situations may vary and it's hard to modelize. What I'm taking away from your video is that current %HP damage are more efficient on champions that buy HP and true damage are more efficient on champions buying resistances (globally). Which sounds totally logical. Thanks for your videos, I always enjoy listening to your ideas. Obviously I don't always agree with you but I always take something useful back from them. I even found some broken™ builds thanks to you :) Keep going !
"What I'm taking away from your video is that current %HP damage are more efficient on champions that buy HP and true damage are more efficient on champions buying resistances (globally). Which sounds totally logical." It's a bit more nontrivial than that, and he points it out at the end. Yes, both of those things are true, but why this actually matters is because almost all tanks build more resistances than they build health (relative to their base values). If this weren't the case then % health and flat true damage would still be equally anti tank.
3 роки тому+4
Well isn't that the same sentence ? The fact that nowadays, most champions tend to build resistances more than HP only means that "champions buying resistances" (to quote myself) is the most common situation for now. Maybe it's just me but I don't like the generalisation of "anti-tank" in the video title. I prefer to consider both solutions and explain when they're the best applied :) But I totally get the point.
You are basically shooting your own argument in the foot by saying he isn't calculating stuff like Guinsoo's Rageblade since the fact is that Kraken Slayer scales with your items while BotRK doesn't. The more items you have the better Kraken Slayer becomes, don't forget this video compares an ADC with no runes (which give bonus AD) and only 1 item to a full build tank, if this were a full build adc Kraken Slayer would clearly be miles ahead of BotRK. The thing is though that there's nothing preventing you from building both. Also idk if Guinsoo's Rageblade makes Kraken Slayer proc more but if it does then you can't just ignore that interaction while drawing attention to BotRK's interaction with it.
3 роки тому
I actually discovered today that Guinsoo works with Kraken as long as your attacks are not using projectiles. So it's another specific case where you are correct when talking about said non-projectiles autos :)
3 роки тому
Quick update : this has changed with 10.24. Guinsoo won't work with Kraken anymore.
pre video thoughts: %hp is more anti tank - the true dmg on kraken slayer is 1 per 3 autos. Assuming you are free hitting the tanks, thats about 1 proc per 1.5 seconds (2 procs per 3 seconds) so about 300 true damage per 3 seconds. - divine sunderer is around 2 ezreal q's per 3 seconds - 20% max hp. Thanks have like 4k hp at around 3-4 items so thats basically 800 dmg pre armour. You are obvs going to have armour pen so maybe around 450 dmg. - bork is 6% curr hp per auto. So assuming 6aa in 3 seconds like kraken, that's also around 20% max hp. Same as sunderer - cleaver is actually insane on lucian when i think about it. Culling = 3 seconds. 25% max hp + 24% armour shred. The premium anti tank item for ad's who can quickly 6 stack
BORK is current, not max HP, so it is actually opposite of black cleaver, in that it does less damage each time you hit them (assuming they aren't sustaining). Black cleaver is missing, also not max HP, so that 25% is more effective the more HP they've lost. Meaning, if you AA 6 times with BORK, you will deal more damage than if you do with cleaver, however, cleaver will outperform BORK shortly thereafter. BORK will almost always be better vs squishy targets (if you aren't killing their ADC in 6 AAs late game, you're probably not killing them), and BC will almost always be better in extended fights vs high armor targets.
I love how this video can be summarized into like 5 mins if you don’t care to much about the numbers and just want to know how to optimize properly. But for us min max nerds, we tune in and listen to phreak. Thank you phreak for saving us all hours of time and doing math(which I hate computing). Forever a legend
Was wondering about this topic after the mini varus rework. Was thinking of trying ap varus with the changes but wasn't sure if it would shred tanks harder than ad varus with kraken slayer. Honestly the biggest thing I think adcs are missing this season is that if they commit to killing tanks via kraken slayer they miss out on the old pd passive that they could just shove into their build whenever and if they commit to shieldbow sometimes they can lack enough dmg. I feel like ap and lethality builds have more defensive options while still being able to build glasscannon.
can i get an update on what it looks like if u factor in the AD Ratio on kraken vs Bork with %arpen cz i think thats an important and realistic approach on that matter in isolation this gives a clear view but realistically i want arpen as ADC and also i would like to maybe see a comparision of pure crit + arpen vs kraken/bork but tbh i dont know how to get a realistic view cz of all those interactions with champs and their unique assets besides: great video love the mathematical view on league tyvm phreak
The example I always use is “Is Elise good at killing tanks?” We all know she’s not, even with 2 %hp spells and a void staff. It baffles me that people think Triforce on Ezreal is better against squishies than Sunderer and vice versa because if Triforce is ever better, it’s for killing tanks with the attack speed and Sunderer generally does more damage to squishies anyway.
I feel true damage is almost always more anti tank except in specific circumstances. More often than not, %health damage ends up being small in the grand scheme of things because its reduced by armor and magic resist, which means that 5% gets cut to 2.5% or less depending on what they have. Where as true damage is what it is. A flat 90 true damage is just that, and if it comes from a consistent source like Kraken Slayer, it adds up and tank defense ends up being not nearly as useful. Only in specif circumstances like Cho and Mundo is it not as good, specifically because they prioritize health over defensive stats.
It really depends on the numbers. A high flat true dmg will outscale a low %hp dmg and vice versa. It all depends how much flat true dmg we're talking about, and how much %HP dmg (and how high the target's HP is). Also, are we talking about max hp or current hp? Because dmg based on max hp is consistent, as Kraken is consistent. But current hp% gets weaker the more wounded they are. Flat/max hp stay consistent but current hp is not.
cho prioritizes defenses over health bc he already gets health from R. He will get a ton of health, so on items he only wants as much resistnces as possible
My take away from this video is just look at the armor/mr. If there is no extra resists in their build then %hp is better even on low hp characters. Armor/magic pen affects your %hp dmg too so if you're already putting that in your build then that's free dmg. When it comes to actual items you're always getting ad which scales kraken but not everyone gets pen. As in all things it just comes down to the numbers on the items. If bork was not nerfed for ranged champs that's basically 5% max hp dmg which is a huge increase for the window of champs it's effective against but in reality you're getting kraken slayer most of the time no matter what so the real question is when is bork a good buy.
To simplify Vs too much armor/mr go true damage Vs too much HP go % health damage Vs lot of HP and armor/mr go % health true damage or % health damage coupled to % armor/mr pen Vs too much armor/mr and too much hp, go Fiora, Camille or Vayne MOST of the time it works
Camille doesn’t have % max health true damage. She’s like Sett, cho’gath, Lillia, etc. where they have % max health separate from flat true damage. Having them both at the same time is extremely valuable against resistances. If you want another champion that does % max health true damage surprisingly enough Amumu does if he auto attack Ws.
@@Abyzdecannes let’s be generous here and say she hits around 300(ish) AD before the game ends. That’s only 540 true damage at max level. I’m not sure where you’re getting a thousand from. Hrm. I guess I’ll go into practice tool to see if her wiki is out of date or something. Edit: I see it does 800 with exclusively Trinity force. Thought the sheen would be added as physical damage. Divine Sunderer catches up if they have 3,000+ health.
@@AuburnInAutumn The 1000 I had in mond comes from the time where Ravenous and DD had 80 AD, but with the new Triforce and the bonus attack speed her R shreds even more, so I guess she still melts super armored tanks easily.
Phreak quick question. Ive never been 100% sure, but im fairly certain that % armor pen works with BoRK %damage procs would that push it to be the stronger tank shredding item since the main thing that makes it fall behind is the armor stacking? Would love to see what you think.
As someone with a bit of pull within the company, can you talk to them about post-quest completion gold for supports? It's brutal when you're behind. Like, even having Relic Shield proc at 50% speed after you've completed the 1000g Quest or something..
I know this is a quick vid of the basic math, so would be too much to actually test, but I wonder how much the meta may skew the numbers around. With the prevalence of AD assassin's and lethality, how much more frequently is armour being built compared to a more mage dominated meta, where there would be more incentive to stack magic resist & health items over armour & health items, which would skew the results more towards BotRK passive.
obviously the items themselves get better later. but the question would always be if you need something else more urgently than raw damage. for example if im a mage and i know that the enemy assassin will blow me up at the start of every fight, then it doesnt matter how much damage dcap would theoretically give me.
Loving the math Phreak! Keep up the good work! :D Edit: Also, I think Phreak said 98 true damage when he meant 78. 60AD + 0.3% bonus = 78 True damage every 3rd auto.
@@Phreak On the current live build, KS deals 60 + 0.3 bAD = 78 if we factor in the AD from the item. Tested in game just to make sure it's not just the tool tip. On average 26 per AA and that changes the video completely. Furthermore, this video says nothing about % hp damage vs true damage. It just compares the power level of botrk vs KS. If botrk got buffed to lets say 20 % current HP damage and KS nerfed to 10 true damage per proc, suddenly botrk is miles better item. Does that suddenly mean that % current HP is better than true damage? No, it just means botrk is a stronger item than KS and it says nothing about being or not being an anti-tank item.
For people who aren't use to the new items bork new third hit is magic dmg proc that steals movement speed. Does not change much all In all but the utility is useful to know about
Good vid. Would recommend changing how you depict the "Difference" in your sheets though. Differences of 124% representing 24% more effective damage and 92% representing 8% less effective damage is a bit counter-intuitive.
To do that you'd also have to include the AD from those items into the scaling of Kraken Slayer's true damage, so I'm guessing it wouldn't change the results. Not to mention you rarely ever see someone building %armor pen as a 2nd item so realistically there'd be at least 1 more AD item to add to Kraken Slayer's scaling true damage.
What makes me look at this question usually is that % health physical damage synergizes with % armor penetration. That combination makes more sense in my head than flat true dmg. Maybe we can run those numbers
I thought we'd be looking at kraken slayer vs eclipse and divine sunderer, which comes with % penetration as mythic passive (and you can still buy the other pen items).
You can't really compare those 'cuz there's only 2 or 3 ADCs who can go lethality and be effective as an ADC (which is what puts them above all other ADCs)
I'm not talking about ADCs using eclipse or divine sunderer. I'm talking about how better those items make their respective classes against tanks vs how much kraken does on ADCs. You can do this by comparing similar build damage of going duskblade vs eclipse and galeforce vs kraken slayer and seeing which one gives better anti tank performance. For example maybe eclipse users deal 15% more damage to tanks than duskblade while users, while kraken slayer users deal a greater or smaller amount if damage. I'm guessing kraken is better early game but at later stages that mythic passive adds up. Comparing kraken vs ruined king is moot because you can build both. The question here is whether ADC itemization is on par to other classes' in terms of relative damage increase.
@@zetachaox I 1st pick Qyiana the other day vs a full team of tanks: Built eclipse and every % armor pen item available and full build their health was still regenerating faster than I could damage them and never went under 95% hp..60% armor pen doesn't matter if 200 armor is enough to stop all your damage and the enemy has 800...
I recently thought about this one. Flat true dmg is kind of anti tank... but it is just as much anti-squishy. Due to their low health pools, flat true damage has a higher relative effect. Next up, the thing is that true damage does not scale with the other most prominent anti-tank stat: %pen. While phys/magical %dmg does. That creates inefficiency in anti-tank builds. True damage is not exactly anti-tank, its anti-everything. %max health is more focused in its role, especially because it scales with %pen. Granted, the reality is that people stack absurd amount of resistances and a comparably low amount health, which skews the numbers quite a bit. In any case, the gist of this is: Flat true damage is just as much anti-tank as it is anti-squishy. It also does not scale with a premiere tank stat, %pen. %max health however suffers from how little health tanks build compared to their massive resistances, but it naturally scales with %pen as a stat, while having very little scaling vs squishy targets. %max health is a better direction for an anti-tank item, as it scales with anti-tank stats and does not crossfire on squishies as much as flat true damage does.
I'm suprised Kraken slayer deals more damage to tanks than %max hp since one procs on all autos and one on every third. How would armor pen affect this? Against tanks you probably get armor when so would bork then be better?
armor pen is both a significant boost and _way_ less important than you might think. a last whisper's 20% alone would drop shen in this example to 268 effective armor and boosts the 50% botrk damage to 31, which still doesn't breach the projected kraken slayer damage but does almost even it out. lord dominik's with the 25% pen drops him to 251 effective armor for ~32.75 damage up to _~37.5_ damage with max giant slayer bonus ( decimals preserved since i'm not sure how league rounds 'em, if it does at all ), though of course kraken slayer's damage would also benefit from the 20 / 30 bonus ad with morde? lw drops him to 130 effective armor and boosts to ~41.75, ldr drops him to 122 and boosts to ~43.25 up to ~49.75 with giant slayer, which certainly _looks_ like an impressive boost ... but that's a boost of 13% from lw, compared to the boost of 19% it provided vs. shen. and the max ldr boost? 34% compared to the 44% boost vs. shen and just for the sake of it, vs ashe? lw to 67 effective armor for a boost to ~36.75 and ldr to ~37.75 and i'm just not gonna bother assuming you're somehow proccing giant slayer on _ashe._ boost of just 11% and 14% respectively, which actually still isn't half-bad considering it applies to _all_ physical damage you do ( like, while giant slayer applies _multiplicatively_ with this armor pen, it's still worth chewing on the fact that ldr with no giant slayer vs a target with only _averageish level 18 armor_ provides almost the same boost as the max giant slayer boost ), but here's the rub: even without calculating kraken slayer's scaling, it should be pretty clear that armor pen at least allows botrk to catch up to the projected kraken slayer damage against armor heavy targets, and amplifies it further on targets with some armor but a bunch of health. but this is assuming a case where you're up against a _full build enemy_ and you're only _just_ reaching your second item. and you're deciding that your second item should be _lord dominik's regards_. while this is just looking at the boost from the armor pen and giant slayer, let's compare ldr to pd on, say, jinx in rocket mode, since she basically doesn't gain attack speed per level and uses crit normally: the attack speed alone is a ~40% boost in dps, which already beats the boost from ldr vs anyone but shen. then the 20% crit for 175% damage is roughly a 15% boost stacking _multiplicatively_ with the attack speed - hey, look, the same as giant slayer! resulting in a boost of ~46%, which now beats ldr vs shen. oh, once you trigger the passive? the attack speed raises to 80%, which _alone_ is miles better than anything ldr gives you, but with the crit on top of that? that's a _~92%_ boost. legitimately, it almost _doubles_ your dps* of course, with the same logic, zerker's alone give ~35% boost of your dps for only 1100 gold, which should really emphasize exactly _why_ it can feel like shit to skip 'em that said, while 1% attack speed will always increase your attack speed dps multiplier by +1%, and 20% crit will always increase your crit dps multiplier by +15% ( unless you're capped or have a crit damage modifier, of course ), this _is_ assuming ldr and pd as a second item with basically no innate attack speed. zerker's and pd combined will boost your dps by ~86.25% / ~132.25% pre- / post-waltz proc, but if you compare that to zerker's alone? that's only an increase of ~27.5% / ~21% in _total_ dps, because that's an additive increase. so botrk, zerker's, ldr _would_ be superior to botrk, zerker's, pd ( esp. since ldr applies to botrk _and_ all other physical damage you deal, while pd only applies to your autos and a handful of abilities ) ... if you're up against someone with at least as much armor and hp as a level 18 morde at full build ( *i realized midway through writing this that i'm presenting this part as if this is the boost to your dps when you build pd _after_ botrk, but these numbers are just flat-out pd on a champ with 0 bonus attack speed. still, the paragraph above covers the difference between an increase in a additive multiplier vs. a total dps increase, so you can work from there. plus, even if going from 25% attack speed from botrk to 65% attack speed with botrk + pd is only an 32% increase in total dps from attack speed alone ... your dps multiplier from attack speed is still going from 25% to 65%, meaning with zerker's on top of them you're _doubling_ your pre-attack speed dps when you can sit and auto someone. total dps boosts only really have meaning when comparing options that increase your total dps in _different_ ways - they don't really tell you anything when opportunity cost between, say, attack speed vs crit vs armor pen isn't a factor ) yeah, uh, that's actually the _real_ rub. that 14% increase vs. ashe is the closest thing to the _real_ benefit you're gonna see for most of the game, only boosted a bit by people building steelcaps and a fair bit more by them building a proper armor item. your botrk damage is also gonna quite a bit lower for basically the same reasons, but because of hp instead. your kraken slayer damage _isn't_ - it's gonna be ~30 per attack regardless of the target's stats, which is gonna look a _lot_ better when your tanky targets are gonna have around the same stats as akali in this vid but with like half the health, and thus half the damage taken from botrk. it's the same deal with pd - its boost to your dps is wholly independant on your target's stats, so even if you buy it after zerker's, you have legend: alacrity and the attack speed shard, and your champ actually has an attack speed growth? you may not be getting even the full reduced dps boost of 27.5% from zerker's into pd, but you're certainly getting _more_ benefit from it than ldr the math in this vid only really means anything in a vacuum, and only really compares the overall concept of true damage vs % health damage - after all, if botrk was 5% instead of 6% on ranged, it would look a _lot_ worse than it does in this vid, but it would still show a trend towards being stronger vs. bruisers than tanks. you should absolutely still grab armor pen as a fifth or sixth item if the enemy team is stacking armor! hell, consider it even if they don't have much armor, as increasing _the entirety of your physical damage_ by 14% against even squishies tends to be a lot more than what buying more attack speed or another bf sword item would give you when you've already got four items. though, of course, that comes down to whether or not a 14% or even a 44% boost in your damage is what you actually _need_ at the moment - it often is, given your role, but you can't deal damage if you're dead or being zoned a mile away, so you still need to factor in stuff like survivability and mobility even in the games where your team picks full ad and the enemy team has malph, rammus, and taric that's one of the small little nice things about kraken slayer, really - having some extra true damage when your entire kit already does physical damage doesn't _devalue_ armor pen ( like, even with kraken slayer, you _are_ going to be dealing the vast majority of your damage through physical damage ... unless you're corki ) but it _does_ serve the overall same purpose, making it feel less bad to delay or even skip ldr entirely. if there's one takeaway from this, it's ... probably that you can just buy kraken, botrk, and ldr together without any obstacle other than the sheer gold cost, because even if % health damage is better vs hp stacking while armor pen and true damage are better vs armor stacking? tanks and smart bruisers are gonna be playing the same game of balancing _their_ stats to counter what your team is building, so since botrk and kraken tend to be built early on? they can easily pivot their build around you, but there's only so much they can do if you're sitting on every item that loudly proclaims that you do not like tanks i mean, they can just have their zed dive and obliterate you, but you're presumably _not_ picking a core build of entirely anti-tank items into a zed that won lane ( oh, yeah, and another takeaway: it takes around 333 armor for 1% of armor pen to equal 1% increased physical damage. it's not _quite_ that linear of a relationship, - 25% armor pen results in a 24% increase while 50% is _63%_ - but it's good enough for league's armor pen numbers )
I just made a mental note saying, depends on hp and armor so I was pretty much right, Ik this is in isolation but what if you take other stuff into consideration like LDR, devine, and so on into account with like 4-6 items or so?
@@xvhayu At 6:55 he says that the proc does 80 + 0.3AD, which is incorrect and is actually as Aly says. Including the AD of the item this would make the proc do an extra 18 damage for a total of 78 which when split over the 3 attacks would mean it's only actually doing 26 damage per proc not the 33 damage Phreak has.
@@MaplerMeep Yeah I'm aware, it will be much better after the buffs. This is still not the data he's using though. The data he's using is just incorrect, he states that he's using 80 flat + 0.3 AD at 6:50.
my only issue with this is that this is only concidering the specific tank shred of botrk passive vs the specific flat dmg of kraken. A good example is if I buy liandrys vs a kraken slayer, how much each do they do? For example I played kaisa into double tank (mundo & leona) the other day and I did ~2500 dmg. The next game I played into a similar comp (2 tanks, amumu & naut) as a morg support. Bought liandrys and did >4k dmg. Now we are comparing a % dmg mythic to a flat true dmg mythic. Furthermore, what if the gold value for the % dmg would be say 500 for the botrk passiv, but 1000 for the kraken? wouldn't that need to change the % dmg used to compare to be doubled? I am not saying you're wrong, but this is kind of poorly presented how these 2 exact item passives can compare
Is it just me or does Kraken slayer's true damage bolt have a slower auto attack animation than your other auto attacks? Idk why but I feel like it is slow.
i think the hp-stacking fighters point you made gets somewhat negated by the fact that they often buy steraks or death dance, both of which (especially in combination) will keep the hp-bar below 50% for a long time (and dd also gives armor). so while you didn't bring an AD-bruiser as an example, i don't think that would've changed much about your point. but yeah, going into everything in full detail would be ridiculous. things like death dance not working with kraken, but delaying (and probably losing) some of the bork dmg i'm also not sure if plated steelcaps / tabis passive doesn't also decrease bork dmg then there's a ton of other effects, like amumu passive, alistar ult, giant slayer on dominiks, armpen on dominiks, all buffing/nerfing bork, but leaving kraken slayer not to forget if you get something like sudden impact, highly increasing damage against low armor targets (or medium armor targets with dominiks, this combo would greatly increase anti-fighter dmg) now if you deal with tanks, you'll probably get dominiks anyway, so bork would rapidly grow stronger so in the end, while this video is interesting, 21 mins was not enough to really prove anything. this is less of a complaint to phreak, but to all the guys complaining about the length of the video and to everyone claiming he could've cut the first 10 mins: half the comment section would be asking for stuff like that
Def True damage is more anti-tank compared to %hp edit: Yep indeed. People really underestimate resistances because resistance & true damage is harder to understand. Which is why I would agree with phreak on bringing these types of basestats more inline. edit2: @Phreak , I just noticed you're coloring cells manually? You can use conditional formatting to auto-color to red/yellow blue. So much less work
There is a slight flaw in the comparison, since all the other mythics get % MAX hp damage while BORK gets % Current HP Damage. A hypothetical tank buster mythic doing 6% Max HP damage per hit it would be much more comparable to the other % HP mythics, and would be doing DOUBLE the damage the 50% bork, and on average double the kraken slayer damage. That's what ADCs really need. I get the overall point, which is tanks build more armor than HP, but that just means we need MORE % hp damage. Flat damage will still always be flat and barely tickle a tank's thousands of hp Bork is kinda hilariously weak. It used to do 8% current hp damage on-hit and 10% max hp damage on active and heal you for the same amount, which also slowed at range. It used to have 15% more attack speed. It's a ghost of its former self.
So please explain how you build for shredding tanks with true damage.. Kraken and then what? AD for the ratio and AS for the frequency? No armor pen? Surely that's not the way. The way I see it, for anti tank options you have one mythic item only (Kraken), and then your picks between Lord Dom's, Black Cleaver and BorK. Two of those items have armor pen/shred included along with their %HP damage, making it more effective as well as just generally helping get more regular attack and ability damage through the armor. I guess my point is, are flat true damage and %HP damage ever even competing against each other? I feel like they're not.
I think it depends on how much flat true damage we're talking. 8% max health physical damage would be equivalent like say 4% or 3% max health true damage against your average 100-150 armor tanks. If that tank has about 3K HP, then you have to be doing like 90 true damage on every auto to get to that equivalence.
Update #2: this math would be true, but I see he's directly comparing BotRK and Kraken Slayer, which BotRK has *current* hp damage, and apparently it was nerfed from 8% to 6%. So all that said, BotRK's effective true damage is going to be like 1.5% for 100 armor or 0.75% for 200 armor. That would mean that Kraken Slayer only needs a 22.5 true damage on-hit to be equivalent against a 200 armor, 3K HP opponent.
you dont need a mythic that scales with how much health or resistances enemy tanks are building if you play ad carry, people could build full damage and kill tanks in 10.22, LDR is still in the game regardless- and many ad carries have on hit passives that made them very playable versus people building full tank before preseason began
One thing i need to say, is, that it is not fair to compare Kraken slayer with Botrk, since one is a mythic and the other isnt, that means, their passives aren't supposed to have the same level of impact. I still think you made your point. And I am surprised, that botrk does more dmg to our adc than the true dmg. :)
Percent health dmg is more anti tank depends on health /armor the tank has. Because you can build only Health without MR and Liandrys will shred you anyway
Great video @Phreak However, I do not understand how you just brushed away the fact that Kraken Slayer does it's true damage on every 3rd attack. Therefore you will never get these comparisons that you did with BotRK. The comparison assumes that you do the damage in the same time. (Same amount of procs/auto attacks). If we attack the same amount of times, BOTRK wins over Kraken Slayer, plain and simple. I think that's the core problem here. For your comparison to hold true you would have to divide the kraken slayer numbers by 3. Because then, every 3rd auto attack would be 1 Kraken slayer proc and be presented correctly in the analysis. Yes true damage wins over %HP but only if it can be done with the same frequency. Which with the itemization in League at this time is not possible. Or am I missing something here?
The fact that it's not factoring in the ~200 bonus AD that a full build ADC would get and it's still more anti-tank shows how bad intuition can be and how important math is. A full build ADC is getting about 2x the true damage of the numbers in this video.
To the Question which is more Anti-Tank: Tanks like Cho'gath or Bruisers, who have a lot of HP, should take more Damage from %Health Damage. Champions that use Damage Reduction like Leona, Rammus or Galio should take more damage from True Damage. I know that these Champions aren't 100% Tanks, but they still work like that. Now I will actually continue watching the Video and also TYVM Phreak for actually doing the Math and answering these questions.
I like to think Tanks as close to real life tanks as possible. True damage as an armorpiercing bullet and % hp damage as a giant axe. Giant axes does not work on RL tanks, but Armorpiercing bullets do. If we then take bruisers in the picture, which is giant muscular men, armorpiercing bullets work against them but not as good as Giant axes do. True damage is anti tank while %hp is anti brusier. I like to think LoL as a real life fact. Also ever since I started playing LoL, I’ve been hating people who call HP stacking bruisers tanks. There’s a huge diffreance between a bruisers and a tank. Another reason is that Muscular men are agile, and rl tanks are slow and tanks long time to fire their shots. Which adds to the idea that Bruisers have low cooldown and high movement speed while tanks has high cooldown and low movement speed
Flat true damage is better vs tanks and % hp is good against fighters(pre video) Edit: After the video, want to point out that, % armor pen kinda makes %hp slightly better late game, and id say this should be included and not the bonus ad scaling of true damage, coz thats just a comparison of kraken slayer(a mythic) vs bork(a non mythic) and isnt really a fair comparison. Tho the argument cant be similar for mages, coz magic resist isnt really build as often as armor, and base magic resist is quite low.
TL;DR the clear takeaway is that both are, but in different ways. %HP directly counters health, and true damage directly counters resistances. Beyond that it's just a question of balance tuning whether the items that give these effects are better than the other against the generic champion at the time.
This doesn't count for max % hp damage ofc which is probably more anti tank as you don't have to divide it by 2, also ap max hp damage is more effective etc. Same as for bruiser who get 10% and have build in armor pen so get more out of even current % health damage.
Well to be fair on current% you wouldn't be dividing by 2 as it takes them longer to get to sub 50% life, atleast in a 1v1. Also when they are 40% is when your Coup is turning on, which Kraken's passive does not benefit from.
really tho, you should look at 9% for ruined king dmg calculation and krakenslayer 3x + proc if u gonna make a fair comparison since krakenslayer proc doesnt apply on every hit while ruined king does
I think your final conclusion regarding Liandries/Demonic is wrong or atleast only partially correct (you would have to do the math again) because they deal their damage based on max health rather than current health. Would have also loved some data on 2/3 items as very few games actually go the distance. But this should probably favor flat dmg even more (since you have less total hp). Great video regrdless, keep up the good work.
Max vs. Current isn't relevant to this discussion because we're only measuring how much it changes at full build. For this video, BotRK is functionally identical to 3% max health.
Kraken slayer is 60 flat + 0.3 bonus AD, not 80 flat + 0.3 bonus AD like you say at 6:50 - you're using incorrect inputs for the maths and comparisons. Including Kraken slayer's 60 ad into account, the on hit should be 60+0.3*60 which would be 78, meaning it's 26/auto, rather than the 33 you have, which changes absolutely everything.
That would mean that you need 130 bonus ad total for the passive to hit 99 every 3 hits, and therefore 33 "per hit" like in the table. 60 comes from the item itself, so you need 70 bonus AD to reach that damage. If you are dealing with full build enemies, like in the comparison phreak does, as an ADC you for sure have 70 more AD. Either just an infinity edge, or maybe two other legendaries. So yes, if you don't consider the AD scaling with the amount of AD and ADC would surely have when dealing with full build enemies, the table is wrong. In a practical scenario, that mistake doesn't change the conclusion.
It depends on your team honestly, if you’re an adc with an Ad mid, true dmg is great. But if you’re team is primarily Ap, then you’d want %. Pretty simple
To my mind (with exceptions for bs like vayne, %MaxTD shouldn't be a thing, only %currentTD or %Max/Current Phys/Magic), True damage was always the way to kill tanks who build resistance, and %health was for taking down Fighters who want health and damage stats.
It's sorta odd that you always compare level 18 full build stats when adc don't rly get that in most games. Also not including runes makes this also redundant because Leona would get over +100 armor from Aftershock for example. There's also another factor like item builds. You don't just build the most popular build or the most effective vs one enemy. You build depending on both team's comps and game state.
I disagree with the conclusion. The values are vitally important in this comparison. Eg. if BoRK had 50% current health as dmg, it would significantly outdamage Kraken Slayer through-out the game. This really only shows that Kraken Slayer does more damage than BoRK to tanks, not that True damage is stronger than % HP. As we can't assume that the items are meant to be equal in overall strength, this comparison does not prove which is stronger. As a final note; Both stats are anti-tank and neither can be said to be 'more' anti-tank than the other.
its a pretty biased take; he sets the tanks health to 50% which reduces the botrk dmg by half. Not all damage is created equal. As the tanks health decreases, the tank loses agency -- his options to engage become more limited, and he must begin to run away. It is more valuable to have the ability to quickly reduce a full hp tank to half, as opposed to linearly reducing its hp over time. He then further reduces the efficacy of botrk by not including any armor pen, which would definitely be present in a fully build, (comparable to the 6 item tanks he is attacking). Finally, although its a small effect, he doesnt take into consideration that he is comparing a cheaper item to a more expensive one. For clarity, the Botrk on a full hp shen does 88 dmg without any armor pen, and 107 w/ arpen. ie, a lot more than the kraken's 33
This analysis doesn't actually address whether % max hp physical damage or flat true damage is "more anti-tank". It only determines that the kraken slayer passive deals more than bork passive in the scenario presented. First of all, If these items were altered this could change. Secondly, and far more importantly, it does not address how much stronger these 2 damage types are against tanks than they are against non tanks. The fact that Kraken slayer passive deals more damage than bork passive means absolutely nothing other than that the passive deals more damage to tanks. What matters is how much stronger they are against tanks as opposed to non tanks, which is not addressed in this video. Kraken slayer passive deals the exact same damage to a 10k hp 500 armor champ as it does to a 1.5k hp champ with no bonus armor. It is good against tanks, no doubt, but it is not better against tanks than it is against non tanks, so it is simply not an anti-tank effect.
The graphic is a little misleading because he is comparing a single instance of BotRK dmg vs a single instance of Kraken Slayer dmg. during a fight when (ideally all) of your autos are going into the enemy champion you are going to get 3 times the number of BotRK instances (for example with the Shen row in the 3 autos it takes to proc the 33 true dmg Kraken slayer, BotRK will have done 78 dmg over that time not just 26). Comparing these items by single instances will always favor the item that is harder to get that instance bc the difficulty to achieve that instance is considered in the item's design.
some flaws of this video have been pointed out, but there is one BIG flaw. BRK is a legendary item, and it has been nerfed, it's 6% but used to be 8%. this is to shift power into mythics, which are supposed to be stronger items. on the other hand, kraken slayer ratio was 30% bonus ad and got buffed to 45%, for the same reason : put more power into mythics. so this anwser the question "is kraken slayer passive more anti tank than BRK passive on their current state", not "True Damage vs %Health Damage: Which is Anti-Tank?". because of course if you put the %health to 30% (yes i exagerate to show my point) it would win, and 2% it would lose, and if you put true dmg to 150 instead of the 33 it would win, and 15 it would lose. if kraken slayer was legendary and BRK was mythic, the numbers would be different, and the outcome would be the opposite.
There is one thing this video doesn't address, is flat true damage anti tank, or anti-everything? If the flat damage was reduced and BotRK style %HP scaling was added wouldn't that make the item more specialized vs tanks? Right now, the answer seems to be "If you want more damage vs basically anything build kracken slayer" I wonder if that was intended for the anti-tank item.
@@bray-7597 hard disagree, the counter to true damage is health and tanks can get a lot of health. ADDITIONALLY they have items that have health AND resistances.
Question. Is true damage or percent health damage more anti-tank? Answer. True damage is more anti-tank. Percent maximum health true damage is the most anti-tank. Opinion! Phreak, I think many people say Kraken Slayer sucks because the passive abilities are difficult to use optimally. "10% bonus attack speed" and "At 2 stacks, the next basic attack consumes all stacks on-attack to deal 60 (+ 30% bonus AD) bonus true damage on-hit." I believe this item has a huge disparity between good, optimal gameplay and poor gameplay, making crit. marksman more difficult than before to balance. To rant slightly...for fun I play a lot of Sivir bottom and, alongside the weaker early game for crit adc, Samira causes a lot of problems for having fun playing marksman in the bottom lane. I foresee difficulty balancing basic attack champions and fear undue compensation while Samira is strong, due to destroying projectiles, and generally a disruptive early game champion. If Samira is picked, I feel like I must pick a counter Senna, Jhin, or Miss Fortune. Often marksman gameplay isn't very fun if not playing Jhin, similar range utility marksman, Vayne, Samira, or moving lanes. I'd love to see an analysis by you for Wind Wall and Blade Whirl about what makes them so powerful. By somewhat of a stretch, maybe Braum's Unbreakable and Pantheon's Aegis Assault, because these abilities appear to me to be meta-defining in bottom lane meta when these champions are picked.
Of course.The more HP the enemy buys, the more your item stays efficient. Flat bonus damage is only good against squishies. That's why Blade of the Ruined King has always been seen as the tank buster item.
Before watching, i would guess true damage is better vs tanks with resistances, and %health is better vs low resistances but high HP. Anyway, Vayne has both B)
I like your videos Phreak, but I think in this one you simplified the scenario too much to a point that you can no longer draw any useful conclusion out of it. There is also the fact that the damage for krakken slayer is wrong even with the self ratio counted in. Here are a bunch of factors that skew this discussion considerably: - Comparing %current health muddles things a bit. Halving it is a decent approximation, but I'm not sure the item is balanced under that assumption. - Not considering armor pen. We all know % armor pen is insanely valuable and will be in any game for an adc and will change these results dramatically. - Comparing a legendary to a mythic item, which might have different power budget associated with the effect (mythic items tend to be more powerful). - Comparing full build champions without considering other scalings the user might have (like rageblade not affecting krakken). - Comparing an instance of damage that comes out of 3 attacks vs one that comes out of 1. I know you are trying to only compare the effect but that's part of the power budget as well. If for some reason botrk was changed to triple damage once every 3 attacks, this would again be very different. Seems to me that in any real world scenario, even with game factors being very tuned to Krakken effect being good, Botrk effect would be a bigger increase in damage and more reliable on top of that.
the more penetration you have, the less effect the true damage have. The true damage is every 3rd attack, meaning the 2 other attacks still have low value. So you not suppose to build penetration then just for the true damage to have value? Also the problem with tanks, is just as much shielding and healing and well as hp. True damage every 3rd attack, won't solve that much as people think. It's not like that one true damage hit is what killed the tank. Imh, killing tanks you need ap damage dealer aka cassiopeia, and an auto attack damage dealer aka vayne, which have physical damage, crit and armor penetration. Then support boost your damage even more with items and kit, and then your tank maybe have black cleaver or abyssal mask to help damage even further. It's teamplay! But can you teamplay in solo queue?`no.
why does tank exists then why does armor and mr does even if bork there i can easily die from an aa from cait with 3 item while i am 6k hp sion full items and 300 armor
Hey i really like your videos, but i think you made some mistakes. I checked the numbers on a 3800 hp / 340 armor dummy in practise tool (to compare with the Shen data) (patch 10.23) 1. Kraken Slayer base dmg is 60. The tooltip in the league client displays the wrong number (it also shows 60ad, but gives 65). With no bonus ad and only Kraken Slay in Inventory, my true dmg is 79 (so per hit it should be around 26/27 dmg) 2. The BotRK on-hit dmg was higher in my test. Against this dummy, my BotRK dealt 60 dmg more than just a normal aa with 40 bonus ad (BotRK gives you also 40 bonus ad), thus "50% BotRK" should be around 30 dmg Taking that in consideration, i get to the conclusion that BotRK deals more on-hit dmg than Kraken Slayer.
It would have been funny if Phreak started with saying "This is going to be a fairly quick video" and then we just saw him in practice tool doing what you just said for like a few seconds and then the video ends.
@@Pulo747 you are right. I made a mistake and had cut down equiped, wich amplifies the BotRK on-Hit dmg, but not the Kraken Slayer passive. The 15% bonus dmg of the Lord Dominiks has the same interaction.
@@rainbowpaw1806 I think that is because damage modifiers like cut down or exhaust don't affect true damage. Maybe that favors botrk a little more in the comparison, since damage amplification is a little more common than damage reduction (at least on top of my mind).
I see the numbers, and the message they portray. But in practice, it's champ design that makes them both kinda worthless. A lot of adcs aren't meant to auto attack a whole lot, and the adcs that do auto A LOT aren't super duper popular rn, except vayne, because she has %max hp dmg and true dmg. %max hp dmg>true dmg>%hp dmg. So I'd say the complaint other people are getting at is, even if the true dmg is "good" the champs that would use it aren't so the items still worthless. Plus like you said, you omitted a lot. You gave kraken it's ad, but if you gave bork it's slow utility plus it being slightly cheaper. It would seem favorable to give up some random small percentage dmg. Especially since 6 items isn't what people build for, at 6 items you would in fact have the armor pen to make the numbers normal again. All this to say, it doesn't matter lol. The ranged adcs that this item is meant to synergize with aren't meta rn. And bork is far more popular top, in tool and the argument becomes completely different. If if your argument is true dmg is more anti tank FOR ADC'S. Then sure, but on the whole it isn't. If you account for how many champs, have %hp/% max hp vs true dmg. The true dmg is often on massive cooldowns or is an execute, almost as if it's an admittance of how generally weak true dmg HAS to be to be in the game at all. Whereas, %hp can safely be tuned because the enemy can always build against it. But that fine tuning I'd what makes %hp better. Yi Is like a perfect case study. Hes so strong because he can get so much true dmg off so quickly, but his passive and ult and even Q all work around FACILITATING that. Many popular ADC'S rn either build ap, or are pokey/lethality/spell blade champs. Straight auto attackers can't compete with other ads bot usually because of the raw dmg. Vayne rolls up on a Jhin. She ult, q autos two or 3 time. Jhin Auto, W Q's autos. Vaynes dead. She isn't rewarded for being anti tank against another ad. Like you said against Jhin bork and kraken are the same meaning, bork which gives more utility is better. Like I said though, "purely antitank" has to do with which lanes perspective we talk from. Top doesn't have too much true dmg. If vayne and fi's true dmg was flat and not %max hp. They would suck, I think that answers the question for me. If vayne w was physical dmg it would still be useful in lane, and by the time you got to fighting tanks it would probably not matter a ton, if you built properly. Same for fi. That's just my lowly opinion though
"Is true damage or %hp more anti-tank"
Fiora & Vayne: Yes
They have both so year they are truely anti tank.
@@UnseenThresh wow you figured out the joke, you're a genius.
Camille with divine sunderer
Yes
Except despite that fiora is generally bad vs tanks because of bramble vest and does much better in carry vs carry matchups.
Shields and attack speed reduction: I am about to end this women's whole career.
"actually fairly quick"- checks vid length - 21minutes....lol we running on Phreak time
Phreak does not see time the way we mere mortals do
well the last "quick video" was 46 minutes. So I guess this is indeed short in Phreaks terms :D
True
absolute vayne moment
Fiora moment also
Vayne is the true queen only adc worth a shit
Vayne with kraken slayer lethal tempo guinsoos and yuumi is fun
Anyone complaining about the length of this video has clearly never done an actual research project in their life... perfect video length Phreak.
I agree, but he does take long pauses and stretches his words a lot, which is just the way he does it and that's fine, but I usually speed up the video 1.25x and it makes him sound like any normal person talking.
The amount of depth he puts into his analysis is still insane though, he presents a lot of examples and that's awesome.
true, he is generally slower paced. i think this is good in more academic settings and not as good for youtube haha
There's also the issue that Kraken Slayer does NOT interact with Runaan's and Rageblade while Botrk does and other on-hit items as well.
It doesnt?
@@LiveErrors Yea. They specifically made it that way
Mani Katti are you certain of this? Wiki says otherwise. Ofc wiki is not the most reliable source.
@@elijahp7899 I tried it in practice tool. But if you want to be sure, you can always try it yourself^^
@@elijahp7899 yeah it dosent. Iirc kraken slayer says on every 3rd attack, not on hit. So rageblade wouldnt proc it because its not an on hit.
tbf in this video the tanks are building basically fully against AD making kraken better.
BotRK scales with lord dominik's unlike the true dmg. so while kraken slayer dmg gets bigger going into late game with its B-AD scaling, botrk can do the same with armorpen and damage amplification (double giantslayer passives, abbyssal,pta...)
You're right about Abyssal and PTA but I kinda doubt the armor pen on the %currenthp damage from botrk would outdo the 0.45 (post-buff) bAD scaling on Kraken Slayer
The thing is , the % burn items like liandrys are extremely good right now, they were designed for health stackers but due to the 4 second DOT they work against anyone
Especially since liandry's also has ramping penetration, making that burn damage (2.5% max hp/s for 4 seconds with a demonic embrace as well) even more effective.
Some quick thoughts :
You're talking about "current" %HP damage. The results would not be the same with total %HP damage (like, compare Divine Sunderer to Kraken Slayer).
Blade of the Ruined King is a legendary item, Kraken Slayer is a mythic one. It's normal to expect the mythic one being better than the legendary (although this assumption isn't always true).
You may (should ?) take into account the fact that Blade of the Ruined King will more than often be built alongside Guinsoo's Rageblade. This will multiply its on-hit damage by 4/3 (assuming packs of 3 autos).
Comparing true damage with physical damage without taking into account any armor penetration will almost always result in true damage winning. If I don't have any armor penetration, I won't even try to hit a tank with Sunfire and Thornmail. I could even kill myself without the tank even needing to hit me xD But I understand the situations may vary and it's hard to modelize.
What I'm taking away from your video is that current %HP damage are more efficient on champions that buy HP and true damage are more efficient on champions buying resistances (globally). Which sounds totally logical.
Thanks for your videos, I always enjoy listening to your ideas.
Obviously I don't always agree with you but I always take something useful back from them. I even found some broken™ builds thanks to you :)
Keep going !
"What I'm taking away from your video is that current %HP damage are more efficient on champions that buy HP and true damage are more efficient on champions buying resistances (globally). Which sounds totally logical."
It's a bit more nontrivial than that, and he points it out at the end. Yes, both of those things are true, but why this actually matters is because almost all tanks build more resistances than they build health (relative to their base values). If this weren't the case then % health and flat true damage would still be equally anti tank.
Well isn't that the same sentence ?
The fact that nowadays, most champions tend to build resistances more than HP only means that "champions buying resistances" (to quote myself) is the most common situation for now.
Maybe it's just me but I don't like the generalisation of "anti-tank" in the video title. I prefer to consider both solutions and explain when they're the best applied :)
But I totally get the point.
You are basically shooting your own argument in the foot by saying he isn't calculating stuff like Guinsoo's Rageblade since the fact is that Kraken Slayer scales with your items while BotRK doesn't. The more items you have the better Kraken Slayer becomes, don't forget this video compares an ADC with no runes (which give bonus AD) and only 1 item to a full build tank, if this were a full build adc Kraken Slayer would clearly be miles ahead of BotRK. The thing is though that there's nothing preventing you from building both. Also idk if Guinsoo's Rageblade makes Kraken Slayer proc more but if it does then you can't just ignore that interaction while drawing attention to BotRK's interaction with it.
I actually discovered today that Guinsoo works with Kraken as long as your attacks are not using projectiles.
So it's another specific case where you are correct when talking about said non-projectiles autos :)
Quick update : this has changed with 10.24.
Guinsoo won't work with Kraken anymore.
I like this style. Asking the simple questions and doing the math so we can come up with better answers game by game.
pre video thoughts:
%hp is more anti tank
- the true dmg on kraken slayer is 1 per 3 autos. Assuming you are free hitting the tanks, thats about 1 proc per 1.5 seconds (2 procs per 3 seconds) so about 300 true damage per 3 seconds.
- divine sunderer is around 2 ezreal q's per 3 seconds - 20% max hp. Thanks have like 4k hp at around 3-4 items so thats basically 800 dmg pre armour. You are obvs going to have armour pen so maybe around 450 dmg.
- bork is 6% curr hp per auto. So assuming 6aa in 3 seconds like kraken, that's also around 20% max hp. Same as sunderer
- cleaver is actually insane on lucian when i think about it. Culling = 3 seconds. 25% max hp + 24% armour shred. The premium anti tank item for ad's who can quickly 6 stack
BORK is current, not max HP, so it is actually opposite of black cleaver, in that it does less damage each time you hit them (assuming they aren't sustaining). Black cleaver is missing, also not max HP, so that 25% is more effective the more HP they've lost. Meaning, if you AA 6 times with BORK, you will deal more damage than if you do with cleaver, however, cleaver will outperform BORK shortly thereafter. BORK will almost always be better vs squishy targets (if you aren't killing their ADC in 6 AAs late game, you're probably not killing them), and BC will almost always be better in extended fights vs high armor targets.
phreak i found your content about a month ago. i love it and you. thX
I love how this video can be summarized into like 5 mins if you don’t care to much about the numbers and just want to know how to optimize properly. But for us min max nerds, we tune in and listen to phreak. Thank you phreak for saving us all hours of time and doing math(which I hate computing). Forever a legend
Was wondering about this topic after the mini varus rework. Was thinking of trying ap varus with the changes but wasn't sure if it would shred tanks harder than ad varus with kraken slayer. Honestly the biggest thing I think adcs are missing this season is that if they commit to killing tanks via kraken slayer they miss out on the old pd passive that they could just shove into their build whenever and if they commit to shieldbow sometimes they can lack enough dmg. I feel like ap and lethality builds have more defensive options while still being able to build glasscannon.
can i get an update on what it looks like if u factor in the AD Ratio on kraken vs Bork with %arpen cz i think thats an important and realistic approach on that matter
in isolation this gives a clear view but realistically i want arpen as ADC and also i would like to maybe see a comparision of pure crit + arpen vs kraken/bork but tbh i dont know how to get a realistic view cz of all those interactions with champs and their unique assets
besides: great video love the mathematical view on league tyvm phreak
The example I always use is “Is Elise good at killing tanks?”
We all know she’s not, even with 2 %hp spells and a void staff.
It baffles me that people think Triforce on Ezreal is better against squishies than Sunderer and vice versa because if Triforce is ever better, it’s for killing tanks with the attack speed and Sunderer generally does more damage to squishies anyway.
I'm loving the vids Phreak
I feel true damage is almost always more anti tank except in specific circumstances. More often than not, %health damage ends up being small in the grand scheme of things because its reduced by armor and magic resist, which means that 5% gets cut to 2.5% or less depending on what they have. Where as true damage is what it is. A flat 90 true damage is just that, and if it comes from a consistent source like Kraken Slayer, it adds up and tank defense ends up being not nearly as useful. Only in specif circumstances like Cho and Mundo is it not as good, specifically because they prioritize health over defensive stats.
It really depends on the numbers. A high flat true dmg will outscale a low %hp dmg and vice versa. It all depends how much flat true dmg we're talking about, and how much %HP dmg (and how high the target's HP is). Also, are we talking about max hp or current hp? Because dmg based on max hp is consistent, as Kraken is consistent. But current hp% gets weaker the more wounded they are. Flat/max hp stay consistent but current hp is not.
@@kitten1591 not to forget riot is BUFFING Kraken 60 to 65 ad and ratio from 30 to 45%
cho prioritizes defenses over health bc he already gets health from R. He will get a ton of health, so on items he only wants as much resistnces as possible
My take away from this video is just look at the armor/mr. If there is no extra resists in their build then %hp is better even on low hp characters. Armor/magic pen affects your %hp dmg too so if you're already putting that in your build then that's free dmg. When it comes to actual items you're always getting ad which scales kraken but not everyone gets pen. As in all things it just comes down to the numbers on the items. If bork was not nerfed for ranged champs that's basically 5% max hp dmg which is a huge increase for the window of champs it's effective against but in reality you're getting kraken slayer most of the time no matter what so the real question is when is bork a good buy.
To simplify
Vs too much armor/mr go true damage
Vs too much HP go % health damage
Vs lot of HP and armor/mr go % health true damage or % health damage coupled to % armor/mr pen
Vs too much armor/mr and too much hp, go Fiora, Camille or Vayne
MOST of the time it works
Camille doesn’t have % max health true damage. She’s like Sett, cho’gath, Lillia, etc. where they have % max health separate from flat true damage. Having them both at the same time is extremely valuable against resistances. If you want another champion that does % max health true damage surprisingly enough Amumu does if he auto attack Ws.
@@AuburnInAutumn Camille can do 1000 true damage every 3 sec on late game, she destroys tanks fast enough dw, and her R is % magic damage
@@Abyzdecannes let’s be generous here and say she hits around 300(ish) AD before the game ends. That’s only 540 true damage at max level. I’m not sure where you’re getting a thousand from. Hrm. I guess I’ll go into practice tool to see if her wiki is out of date or something.
Edit: I see it does 800 with exclusively Trinity force. Thought the sheen would be added as physical damage. Divine Sunderer catches up if they have 3,000+ health.
@@AuburnInAutumn The 1000 I had in mond comes from the time where Ravenous and DD had 80 AD, but with the new Triforce and the bonus attack speed her R shreds even more, so I guess she still melts super armored tanks easily.
@@Abyzdecannes ah I see. Before the item rework.
Phreak quick question. Ive never been 100% sure, but im fairly certain that % armor pen works with BoRK %damage procs would that push it to be the stronger tank shredding item since the main thing that makes it fall behind is the armor stacking? Would love to see what you think.
love your vids phreak !
As someone with a bit of pull within the company, can you talk to them about post-quest completion gold for supports? It's brutal when you're behind. Like, even having Relic Shield proc at 50% speed after you've completed the 1000g Quest or something..
I know this is a quick vid of the basic math, so would be too much to actually test, but I wonder how much the meta may skew the numbers around. With the prevalence of AD assassin's and lethality, how much more frequently is armour being built compared to a more mage dominated meta, where there would be more incentive to stack magic resist & health items over armour & health items, which would skew the results more towards BotRK passive.
Let the man live with his lengthy videos.
Its fine having long videos but ngl the first 10min could have been cut out imo.
the movement speed steal on blade of the ruined king seems like a legendary item
Hey Phreak, is it better to get items like Rabadons Deathcap and Infinity Edge early or later in your build?
obviously the items themselves get better later. but the question would always be if you need something else more urgently than raw damage. for example if im a mage and i know that the enemy assassin will blow me up at the start of every fight, then it doesnt matter how much damage dcap would theoretically give me.
Loving the math Phreak! Keep up the good work! :D
Edit: Also, I think Phreak said 98 true damage when he meant 78.
60AD + 0.3% bonus = 78 True damage every 3rd auto.
@thomasqwerty101 leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Kraken_Slayer It's 60, not 80.
Kraken Slayer is 80 base damage. 80 + 60*.3 = 98.
@@Phreak On the current live build, KS deals 60 + 0.3 bAD = 78 if we factor in the AD from the item. Tested in game just to make sure it's not just the tool tip. On average 26 per AA and that changes the video completely. Furthermore, this video says nothing about % hp damage vs true damage. It just compares the power level of botrk vs KS. If botrk got buffed to lets say 20 % current HP damage and KS nerfed to 10 true damage per proc, suddenly botrk is miles better item. Does that suddenly mean that % current HP is better than true damage? No, it just means botrk is a stronger item than KS and it says nothing about being or not being an anti-tank item.
@@michaelsykes911 this man says what we all think but cant articulate
@@michaelsykes911 Very true.
For people who aren't use to the new items bork new third hit is magic dmg proc that steals movement speed.
Does not change much all In all but the utility is useful to know about
Good vid.
Would recommend changing how you depict the "Difference" in your sheets though.
Differences of 124% representing 24% more effective damage and 92% representing 8% less effective damage is a bit counter-intuitive.
I think doing the same thing with armor pen on Top would have eben more realistic
To do that you'd also have to include the AD from those items into the scaling of Kraken Slayer's true damage, so I'm guessing it wouldn't change the results. Not to mention you rarely ever see someone building %armor pen as a 2nd item so realistically there'd be at least 1 more AD item to add to Kraken Slayer's scaling true damage.
What makes me look at this question usually is that % health physical damage synergizes with % armor penetration.
That combination makes more sense in my head than flat true dmg. Maybe we can run those numbers
I thought we'd be looking at kraken slayer vs eclipse and divine sunderer, which comes with % penetration as mythic passive (and you can still buy the other pen items).
You can't really compare those 'cuz there's only 2 or 3 ADCs who can go lethality and be effective as an ADC (which is what puts them above all other ADCs)
I'm not talking about ADCs using eclipse or divine sunderer. I'm talking about how better those items make their respective classes against tanks vs how much kraken does on ADCs. You can do this by comparing similar build damage of going duskblade vs eclipse and galeforce vs kraken slayer and seeing which one gives better anti tank performance. For example maybe eclipse users deal 15% more damage to tanks than duskblade while users, while kraken slayer users deal a greater or smaller amount if damage. I'm guessing kraken is better early game but at later stages that mythic passive adds up. Comparing kraken vs ruined king is moot because you can build both. The question here is whether ADC itemization is on par to other classes' in terms of relative damage increase.
@@zetachaox I 1st pick Qyiana the other day vs a full team of tanks: Built eclipse and every % armor pen item available and full build their health was still regenerating faster than I could damage them and never went under 95% hp..60% armor pen doesn't matter if 200 armor is enough to stop all your damage and the enemy has 800...
@@poncio2632 well, we know Tanks are just way too strong right now. I guess true damage is better with the level of armor available right now.
I recently thought about this one.
Flat true dmg is kind of anti tank... but it is just as much anti-squishy. Due to their low health pools, flat true damage has a higher relative effect.
Next up, the thing is that true damage does not scale with the other most prominent anti-tank stat: %pen. While phys/magical %dmg does. That creates inefficiency in anti-tank builds.
True damage is not exactly anti-tank, its anti-everything. %max health is more focused in its role, especially because it scales with %pen. Granted, the reality is that people stack absurd amount of resistances and a comparably low amount health, which skews the numbers quite a bit.
In any case, the gist of this is:
Flat true damage is just as much anti-tank as it is anti-squishy. It also does not scale with a premiere tank stat, %pen.
%max health however suffers from how little health tanks build compared to their massive resistances, but it naturally scales with %pen as a stat, while having very little scaling vs squishy targets.
%max health is a better direction for an anti-tank item, as it scales with anti-tank stats and does not crossfire on squishies as much as flat true damage does.
I'm suprised Kraken slayer deals more damage to tanks than %max hp since one procs on all autos and one on every third. How would armor pen affect this? Against tanks you probably get armor when so would bork then be better?
armor pen is both a significant boost and _way_ less important than you might think. a last whisper's 20% alone would drop shen in this example to 268 effective armor and boosts the 50% botrk damage to 31, which still doesn't breach the projected kraken slayer damage but does almost even it out. lord dominik's with the 25% pen drops him to 251 effective armor for ~32.75 damage up to _~37.5_ damage with max giant slayer bonus ( decimals preserved since i'm not sure how league rounds 'em, if it does at all ), though of course kraken slayer's damage would also benefit from the 20 / 30 bonus ad
with morde? lw drops him to 130 effective armor and boosts to ~41.75, ldr drops him to 122 and boosts to ~43.25 up to ~49.75 with giant slayer, which certainly _looks_ like an impressive boost ... but that's a boost of 13% from lw, compared to the boost of 19% it provided vs. shen. and the max ldr boost? 34% compared to the 44% boost vs. shen
and just for the sake of it, vs ashe? lw to 67 effective armor for a boost to ~36.75 and ldr to ~37.75 and i'm just not gonna bother assuming you're somehow proccing giant slayer on _ashe._ boost of just 11% and 14% respectively, which actually still isn't half-bad considering it applies to _all_ physical damage you do ( like, while giant slayer applies _multiplicatively_ with this armor pen, it's still worth chewing on the fact that ldr with no giant slayer vs a target with only _averageish level 18 armor_ provides almost the same boost as the max giant slayer boost ), but here's the rub:
even without calculating kraken slayer's scaling, it should be pretty clear that armor pen at least allows botrk to catch up to the projected kraken slayer damage against armor heavy targets, and amplifies it further on targets with some armor but a bunch of health. but this is assuming a case where you're up against a _full build enemy_ and you're only _just_ reaching your second item. and you're deciding that your second item should be _lord dominik's regards_. while this is just looking at the boost from the armor pen and giant slayer, let's compare ldr to pd on, say, jinx in rocket mode, since she basically doesn't gain attack speed per level and uses crit normally: the attack speed alone is a ~40% boost in dps, which already beats the boost from ldr vs anyone but shen. then the 20% crit for 175% damage is roughly a 15% boost stacking _multiplicatively_ with the attack speed - hey, look, the same as giant slayer! resulting in a boost of ~46%, which now beats ldr vs shen. oh, once you trigger the passive? the attack speed raises to 80%, which _alone_ is miles better than anything ldr gives you, but with the crit on top of that? that's a _~92%_ boost. legitimately, it almost _doubles_ your dps*
of course, with the same logic, zerker's alone give ~35% boost of your dps for only 1100 gold, which should really emphasize exactly _why_ it can feel like shit to skip 'em
that said, while 1% attack speed will always increase your attack speed dps multiplier by +1%, and 20% crit will always increase your crit dps multiplier by +15% ( unless you're capped or have a crit damage modifier, of course ), this _is_ assuming ldr and pd as a second item with basically no innate attack speed. zerker's and pd combined will boost your dps by ~86.25% / ~132.25% pre- / post-waltz proc, but if you compare that to zerker's alone? that's only an increase of ~27.5% / ~21% in _total_ dps, because that's an additive increase. so botrk, zerker's, ldr _would_ be superior to botrk, zerker's, pd ( esp. since ldr applies to botrk _and_ all other physical damage you deal, while pd only applies to your autos and a handful of abilities ) ... if you're up against someone with at least as much armor and hp as a level 18 morde at full build
( *i realized midway through writing this that i'm presenting this part as if this is the boost to your dps when you build pd _after_ botrk, but these numbers are just flat-out pd on a champ with 0 bonus attack speed. still, the paragraph above covers the difference between an increase in a additive multiplier vs. a total dps increase, so you can work from there. plus, even if going from 25% attack speed from botrk to 65% attack speed with botrk + pd is only an 32% increase in total dps from attack speed alone ... your dps multiplier from attack speed is still going from 25% to 65%, meaning with zerker's on top of them you're _doubling_ your pre-attack speed dps when you can sit and auto someone. total dps boosts only really have meaning when comparing options that increase your total dps in _different_ ways - they don't really tell you anything when opportunity cost between, say, attack speed vs crit vs armor pen isn't a factor )
yeah, uh, that's actually the _real_ rub. that 14% increase vs. ashe is the closest thing to the _real_ benefit you're gonna see for most of the game, only boosted a bit by people building steelcaps and a fair bit more by them building a proper armor item. your botrk damage is also gonna quite a bit lower for basically the same reasons, but because of hp instead. your kraken slayer damage _isn't_ - it's gonna be ~30 per attack regardless of the target's stats, which is gonna look a _lot_ better when your tanky targets are gonna have around the same stats as akali in this vid but with like half the health, and thus half the damage taken from botrk. it's the same deal with pd - its boost to your dps is wholly independant on your target's stats, so even if you buy it after zerker's, you have legend: alacrity and the attack speed shard, and your champ actually has an attack speed growth? you may not be getting even the full reduced dps boost of 27.5% from zerker's into pd, but you're certainly getting _more_ benefit from it than ldr
the math in this vid only really means anything in a vacuum, and only really compares the overall concept of true damage vs % health damage - after all, if botrk was 5% instead of 6% on ranged, it would look a _lot_ worse than it does in this vid, but it would still show a trend towards being stronger vs. bruisers than tanks. you should absolutely still grab armor pen as a fifth or sixth item if the enemy team is stacking armor! hell, consider it even if they don't have much armor, as increasing _the entirety of your physical damage_ by 14% against even squishies tends to be a lot more than what buying more attack speed or another bf sword item would give you when you've already got four items. though, of course, that comes down to whether or not a 14% or even a 44% boost in your damage is what you actually _need_ at the moment - it often is, given your role, but you can't deal damage if you're dead or being zoned a mile away, so you still need to factor in stuff like survivability and mobility even in the games where your team picks full ad and the enemy team has malph, rammus, and taric
that's one of the small little nice things about kraken slayer, really - having some extra true damage when your entire kit already does physical damage doesn't _devalue_ armor pen ( like, even with kraken slayer, you _are_ going to be dealing the vast majority of your damage through physical damage ... unless you're corki ) but it _does_ serve the overall same purpose, making it feel less bad to delay or even skip ldr entirely. if there's one takeaway from this, it's ... probably that you can just buy kraken, botrk, and ldr together without any obstacle other than the sheer gold cost, because even if % health damage is better vs hp stacking while armor pen and true damage are better vs armor stacking? tanks and smart bruisers are gonna be playing the same game of balancing _their_ stats to counter what your team is building, so since botrk and kraken tend to be built early on? they can easily pivot their build around you, but there's only so much they can do if you're sitting on every item that loudly proclaims that you do not like tanks
i mean, they can just have their zed dive and obliterate you, but you're presumably _not_ picking a core build of entirely anti-tank items into a zed that won lane
( oh, yeah, and another takeaway: it takes around 333 armor for 1% of armor pen to equal 1% increased physical damage. it's not _quite_ that linear of a relationship, - 25% armor pen results in a 24% increase while 50% is _63%_ - but it's good enough for league's armor pen numbers )
Well, I was not expecting that. Very interesting.
I just made a mental note saying, depends on hp and armor so I was pretty much right, Ik this is in isolation but what if you take other stuff into consideration like LDR, devine, and so on into account with like 4-6 items or so?
This isn't mentioned anywhere but is this 3 autos with BOTRK or 1 auto with BOTRK vs Krakens proc?
When I saw the title I thought we were comparing %max hp not current hp.
Also, Kraken is 80 on-hit true dmg before ratio? I thought it was 60 +0.3bAD
@@xvhayu At 6:55 he says that the proc does 80 + 0.3AD, which is incorrect and is actually as Aly says. Including the AD of the item this would make the proc do an extra 18 damage for a total of 78 which when split over the 3 attacks would mean it's only actually doing 26 damage per proc not the 33 damage Phreak has.
You're correct, Phreak is wrong here. Kraken slayer column should be 26 not 33 all the way down.
@@lilelf29 It's getting buffed to 65 ad and scaling by 0.45bAD so it calculates to 29.75 per attack which probably gets rounded to 30
@@MaplerMeep Yeah I'm aware, it will be much better after the buffs. This is still not the data he's using though. The data he's using is just incorrect, he states that he's using 80 flat + 0.3 AD at 6:50.
@@lilelf29 Yeah I know I'm just saying it's not as big a difference
my only issue with this is that this is only concidering the specific tank shred of botrk passive vs the specific flat dmg of kraken. A good example is if I buy liandrys vs a kraken slayer, how much each do they do? For example I played kaisa into double tank (mundo & leona) the other day and I did ~2500 dmg. The next game I played into a similar comp (2 tanks, amumu & naut) as a morg support. Bought liandrys and did >4k dmg. Now we are comparing a % dmg mythic to a flat true dmg mythic.
Furthermore, what if the gold value for the % dmg would be say 500 for the botrk passiv, but 1000 for the kraken? wouldn't that need to change the % dmg used to compare to be doubled?
I am not saying you're wrong, but this is kind of poorly presented how these 2 exact item passives can compare
First inclination, %hp, but upon thinking about it more, true damage seems like the answer, now give me that breakdown phreak
Is it just me or does Kraken slayer's true damage bolt have a slower auto attack animation than your other auto attacks? Idk why but I feel like it is slow.
Great video
i think the hp-stacking fighters point you made gets somewhat negated by the fact that they often buy steraks or death dance, both of which (especially in combination) will keep the hp-bar below 50% for a long time (and dd also gives armor). so while you didn't bring an AD-bruiser as an example, i don't think that would've changed much about your point.
but yeah, going into everything in full detail would be ridiculous. things like death dance not working with kraken, but delaying (and probably losing) some of the bork dmg
i'm also not sure if plated steelcaps / tabis passive doesn't also decrease bork dmg
then there's a ton of other effects, like amumu passive, alistar ult, giant slayer on dominiks, armpen on dominiks, all buffing/nerfing bork, but leaving kraken slayer
not to forget if you get something like sudden impact, highly increasing damage against low armor targets (or medium armor targets with dominiks, this combo would greatly increase anti-fighter dmg)
now if you deal with tanks, you'll probably get dominiks anyway, so bork would rapidly grow stronger
so in the end, while this video is interesting, 21 mins was not enough to really prove anything. this is less of a complaint to phreak, but to all the guys complaining about the length of the video
and to everyone claiming he could've cut the first 10 mins: half the comment section would be asking for stuff like that
Def True damage is more anti-tank compared to %hp
edit: Yep indeed. People really underestimate resistances because resistance & true damage is harder to understand. Which is why I would agree with phreak on bringing these types of basestats more inline.
edit2: @Phreak , I just noticed you're coloring cells manually? You can use conditional formatting to auto-color to red/yellow blue. So much less work
7:45 wait, rewatching I realized you ran the numbers for ranged attackers. I think thats an important thing to mention.
*Laughs in Lethality + Shrelyda Grugde Jhin*
How much %armor penn would you need to get even with flat true dmg?
In this case with BORK and Krakin.
There is a slight flaw in the comparison, since all the other mythics get % MAX hp damage while BORK gets % Current HP Damage.
A hypothetical tank buster mythic doing 6% Max HP damage per hit it would be much more comparable to the other % HP mythics, and would be doing DOUBLE the damage the 50% bork, and on average double the kraken slayer damage. That's what ADCs really need. I get the overall point, which is tanks build more armor than HP, but that just means we need MORE % hp damage. Flat damage will still always be flat and barely tickle a tank's thousands of hp
Bork is kinda hilariously weak. It used to do 8% current hp damage on-hit and 10% max hp damage on active and heal you for the same amount, which also slowed at range. It used to have 15% more attack speed. It's a ghost of its former self.
So please explain how you build for shredding tanks with true damage.. Kraken and then what? AD for the ratio and AS for the frequency? No armor pen? Surely that's not the way.
The way I see it, for anti tank options you have one mythic item only (Kraken), and then your picks between Lord Dom's, Black Cleaver and BorK. Two of those items have armor pen/shred included along with their %HP damage, making it more effective as well as just generally helping get more regular attack and ability damage through the armor.
I guess my point is, are flat true damage and %HP damage ever even competing against each other? I feel like they're not.
I think it depends on how much flat true damage we're talking. 8% max health physical damage would be equivalent like say 4% or 3% max health true damage against your average 100-150 armor tanks. If that tank has about 3K HP, then you have to be doing like 90 true damage on every auto to get to that equivalence.
Update: also worth noting Kraken Slayer has nowhere near that number.
Update #2: this math would be true, but I see he's directly comparing BotRK and Kraken Slayer, which BotRK has *current* hp damage, and apparently it was nerfed from 8% to 6%. So all that said, BotRK's effective true damage is going to be like 1.5% for 100 armor or 0.75% for 200 armor. That would mean that Kraken Slayer only needs a 22.5 true damage on-hit to be equivalent against a 200 armor, 3K HP opponent.
True damage is great versus high resistances. I just dont know when which is better
You also can get both KEKW
you dont need a mythic that scales with how much health or resistances enemy tanks are building if you play ad carry, people could build full damage and kill tanks in 10.22, LDR is still in the game regardless- and many ad carries have on hit passives that made them very playable versus people building full tank before preseason began
I'd say flat, as most tanks don't stack health items... though the flat is just as or more effective against squishier targets I think.
I think it depends on how much armor the tank has since if %max health damage is physical and tank has tons of armor it's still bad
One thing i need to say, is, that it is not fair to compare Kraken slayer with Botrk, since one is a mythic and the other isnt, that means, their passives aren't supposed to have the same level of impact. I still think you made your point.
And I am surprised, that botrk does more dmg to our adc than the true dmg. :)
Percent health dmg is more anti tank depends on health /armor the tank has. Because you can build only Health without MR and Liandrys will shred you anyway
Great video @Phreak
However, I do not understand how you just brushed away the fact that Kraken Slayer does it's true damage on every 3rd attack.
Therefore you will never get these comparisons that you did with BotRK. The comparison assumes that you do the damage in the same time. (Same amount of procs/auto attacks).
If we attack the same amount of times, BOTRK wins over Kraken Slayer, plain and simple. I think that's the core problem here.
For your comparison to hold true you would have to divide the kraken slayer numbers by 3. Because then, every 3rd auto attack would be 1 Kraken slayer proc and be presented correctly in the analysis.
Yes true damage wins over %HP but only if it can be done with the same frequency. Which with the itemization in League at this time is not possible.
Or am I missing something here?
The fact that it's not factoring in the ~200 bonus AD that a full build ADC would get and it's still more anti-tank shows how bad intuition can be and how important math is. A full build ADC is getting about 2x the true damage of the numbers in this video.
You are constantly cutting off info on the right side of the capture region you use for the spreadsheet. Same thing was happening in your last video.
To the Question which is more Anti-Tank: Tanks like Cho'gath or Bruisers, who have a lot of HP, should take more Damage from %Health Damage. Champions that use Damage Reduction like Leona, Rammus or Galio should take more damage from True Damage. I know that these Champions aren't 100% Tanks, but they still work like that. Now I will actually continue watching the Video and also TYVM Phreak for actually doing the Math and answering these questions.
Just test it in a custom or practice tool. Time how long it takes to kill a certain champ with two builds on same champ.
Before watching
I THINK that it depends
Against health tanks like sion and cho %health is better against resist tanks like leona and alistar
I like to think Tanks as close to real life tanks as possible.
True damage as an armorpiercing bullet and % hp damage as a giant axe.
Giant axes does not work on RL tanks, but Armorpiercing bullets do.
If we then take bruisers in the picture, which is giant muscular men, armorpiercing bullets work against them but not as good as Giant axes do.
True damage is anti tank while %hp is anti brusier.
I like to think LoL as a real life fact. Also ever since I started playing LoL, I’ve been hating people who call HP stacking bruisers tanks. There’s a huge diffreance between a bruisers and a tank.
Another reason is that Muscular men are agile, and rl tanks are slow and tanks long time to fire their shots. Which adds to the idea that Bruisers have low cooldown and high movement speed while tanks has high cooldown and low movement speed
Felt old when I saw "Morello's" xD
Which one is best ?
Just in case make both and we call that a day ! :3
Flat true damage is better vs tanks and % hp is good against fighters(pre video)
Edit:
After the video, want to point out that, % armor pen kinda makes %hp slightly better late game, and id say this should be included and not the bonus ad scaling of true damage, coz thats just a comparison of kraken slayer(a mythic) vs bork(a non mythic) and isnt really a fair comparison.
Tho the argument cant be similar for mages, coz magic resist isnt really build as often as armor, and base magic resist is quite low.
anyone have math on kraken into IE rush with tempo for crit ADCs?
IE second will never be good for champions without inherent crit added to their kit
@@bray-7597 but is it worse than other options? i'm thinking kraken IE BT/ LDR which is why IE 2nd
TL;DR the clear takeaway is that both are, but in different ways. %HP directly counters health, and true damage directly counters resistances. Beyond that it's just a question of balance tuning whether the items that give these effects are better than the other against the generic champion at the time.
This doesn't count for max % hp damage ofc which is probably more anti tank as you don't have to divide it by 2, also ap max hp damage is more effective etc. Same as for bruiser who get 10% and have build in armor pen so get more out of even current % health damage.
Well to be fair on current% you wouldn't be dividing by 2 as it takes them longer to get to sub 50% life, atleast in a 1v1. Also when they are 40% is when your Coup is turning on, which Kraken's passive does not benefit from.
really tho, you should look at 9% for ruined king dmg calculation and krakenslayer 3x + proc if u gonna make a fair comparison since krakenslayer proc doesnt apply on every hit while ruined king does
I think your final conclusion regarding Liandries/Demonic is wrong or atleast only partially correct (you would have to do the math again) because they deal their damage based on max health rather than current health.
Would have also loved some data on 2/3 items as very few games actually go the distance. But this should probably favor flat dmg even more (since you have less total hp).
Great video regrdless, keep up the good work.
Max vs. Current isn't relevant to this discussion because we're only measuring how much it changes at full build. For this video, BotRK is functionally identical to 3% max health.
Kraken slayer is 60 flat + 0.3 bonus AD, not 80 flat + 0.3 bonus AD like you say at 6:50 - you're using incorrect inputs for the maths and comparisons.
Including Kraken slayer's 60 ad into account, the on hit should be 60+0.3*60 which would be 78, meaning it's 26/auto, rather than the 33 you have, which changes absolutely everything.
That would mean that you need 130 bonus ad total for the passive to hit 99 every 3 hits, and therefore 33 "per hit" like in the table. 60 comes from the item itself, so you need 70 bonus AD to reach that damage. If you are dealing with full build enemies, like in the comparison phreak does, as an ADC you for sure have 70 more AD. Either just an infinity edge, or maybe two other legendaries. So yes, if you don't consider the AD scaling with the amount of AD and ADC would surely have when dealing with full build enemies, the table is wrong. In a practical scenario, that mistake doesn't change the conclusion.
It depends on your team honestly, if you’re an adc with an Ad mid, true dmg is great. But if you’re team is primarily Ap, then you’d want %. Pretty simple
This assumes that the opposing team has the mental capacity to correctly itemize.
To my mind (with exceptions for bs like vayne, %MaxTD shouldn't be a thing, only %currentTD or %Max/Current Phys/Magic), True damage was always the way to kill tanks who build resistance, and %health was for taking down Fighters who want health and damage stats.
It's sorta odd that you always compare level 18 full build stats when adc don't rly get that in most games. Also not including runes makes this also redundant because Leona would get over +100 armor from Aftershock for example.
There's also another factor like item builds. You don't just build the most popular build or the most effective vs one enemy. You build depending on both team's comps and game state.
I disagree with the conclusion.
The values are vitally important in this comparison. Eg. if BoRK had 50% current health as dmg, it would significantly outdamage Kraken Slayer through-out the game. This really only shows that Kraken Slayer does more damage than BoRK to tanks, not that True damage is stronger than % HP. As we can't assume that the items are meant to be equal in overall strength, this comparison does not prove which is stronger.
As a final note; Both stats are anti-tank and neither can be said to be 'more' anti-tank than the other.
its a pretty biased take; he sets the tanks health to 50% which reduces the botrk dmg by half. Not all damage is created equal. As the tanks health decreases, the tank loses agency -- his options to engage become more limited, and he must begin to run away. It is more valuable to have the ability to quickly reduce a full hp tank to half, as opposed to linearly reducing its hp over time. He then further reduces the efficacy of botrk by not including any armor pen, which would definitely be present in a fully build, (comparable to the 6 item tanks he is attacking). Finally, although its a small effect, he doesnt take into consideration that he is comparing a cheaper item to a more expensive one.
For clarity, the Botrk on a full hp shen does 88 dmg without any armor pen, and 107 w/ arpen. ie, a lot more than the kraken's 33
This analysis doesn't actually address whether % max hp physical damage or flat true damage is "more anti-tank". It only determines that the kraken slayer passive deals more than bork passive in the scenario presented. First of all, If these items were altered this could change. Secondly, and far more importantly, it does not address how much stronger these 2 damage types are against tanks than they are against non tanks. The fact that Kraken slayer passive deals more damage than bork passive means absolutely nothing other than that the passive deals more damage to tanks. What matters is how much stronger they are against tanks as opposed to non tanks, which is not addressed in this video.
Kraken slayer passive deals the exact same damage to a 10k hp 500 armor champ as it does to a 1.5k hp champ with no bonus armor. It is good against tanks, no doubt, but it is not better against tanks than it is against non tanks, so it is simply not an anti-tank effect.
The graphic is a little misleading because he is comparing a single instance of BotRK dmg vs a single instance of Kraken Slayer dmg. during a fight when (ideally all) of your autos are going into the enemy champion you are going to get 3 times the number of BotRK instances (for example with the Shen row in the 3 autos it takes to proc the 33 true dmg Kraken slayer, BotRK will have done 78 dmg over that time not just 26). Comparing these items by single instances will always favor the item that is harder to get that instance bc the difficulty to achieve that instance is considered in the item's design.
the 33 true damage is the average per auto. Kraken slayer actually does 80-100 true damage every third auto.
some flaws of this video have been pointed out, but there is one BIG flaw.
BRK is a legendary item, and it has been nerfed, it's 6% but used to be 8%. this is to shift power into mythics, which are supposed to be stronger items.
on the other hand, kraken slayer ratio was 30% bonus ad and got buffed to 45%, for the same reason : put more power into mythics.
so this anwser the question "is kraken slayer passive more anti tank than BRK passive on their current state", not "True Damage vs %Health Damage: Which is Anti-Tank?".
because of course if you put the %health to 30% (yes i exagerate to show my point) it would win, and 2% it would lose, and if you put true dmg to 150 instead of the 33 it would win, and 15 it would lose.
if kraken slayer was legendary and BRK was mythic, the numbers would be different, and the outcome would be the opposite.
There is one thing this video doesn't address, is flat true damage anti tank, or anti-everything? If the flat damage was reduced and BotRK style %HP scaling was added wouldn't that make the item more specialized vs tanks? Right now, the answer seems to be "If you want more damage vs basically anything build kracken slayer" I wonder if that was intended for the anti-tank item.
No, flat true dmg is specifically more effective vs tanks
@@bray-7597 hard disagree, the counter to true damage is health and tanks can get a lot of health. ADDITIONALLY they have items that have health AND resistances.
Question. Is true damage or percent health damage more anti-tank?
Answer. True damage is more anti-tank. Percent maximum health true damage is the most anti-tank.
Opinion! Phreak, I think many people say Kraken Slayer sucks because the passive abilities are difficult to use optimally. "10% bonus attack speed" and "At 2 stacks, the next basic attack consumes all stacks on-attack to deal 60 (+ 30% bonus AD) bonus true damage on-hit." I believe this item has a huge disparity between good, optimal gameplay and poor gameplay, making crit. marksman more difficult than before to balance. To rant slightly...for fun I play a lot of Sivir bottom and, alongside the weaker early game for crit adc, Samira causes a lot of problems for having fun playing marksman in the bottom lane. I foresee difficulty balancing basic attack champions and fear undue compensation while Samira is strong, due to destroying projectiles, and generally a disruptive early game champion. If Samira is picked, I feel like I must pick a counter Senna, Jhin, or Miss Fortune. Often marksman gameplay isn't very fun if not playing Jhin, similar range utility marksman, Vayne, Samira, or moving lanes. I'd love to see an analysis by you for Wind Wall and Blade Whirl about what makes them so powerful. By somewhat of a stretch, maybe Braum's Unbreakable and Pantheon's Aegis Assault, because these abilities appear to me to be meta-defining in bottom lane meta when these champions are picked.
Yeah but what about kraken +lord doms vs bork +lord doms
Without thinking too much about it, my instant hunch is that health % is a better tank busting item.
Of course.The more HP the enemy buys, the more your item stays efficient. Flat bonus damage is only good against squishies. That's why Blade of the Ruined King has always been seen as the tank buster item.
Depends on the tank
Awesome
@Investors109 my gf Valerie won't be happy bb, but thanks
I dunno But i think Bork might do it Better than krakenslayer, though Those two synergize
Before watching, i would guess true damage is better vs tanks with resistances, and %health is better vs low resistances but high HP. Anyway, Vayne has both B)
Vayne: why not both ?
I like your videos Phreak, but I think in this one you simplified the scenario too much to a point that you can no longer draw any useful conclusion out of it.
There is also the fact that the damage for krakken slayer is wrong even with the self ratio counted in.
Here are a bunch of factors that skew this discussion considerably:
- Comparing %current health muddles things a bit. Halving it is a decent approximation, but I'm not sure the item is balanced under that assumption.
- Not considering armor pen. We all know % armor pen is insanely valuable and will be in any game for an adc and will change these results dramatically.
- Comparing a legendary to a mythic item, which might have different power budget associated with the effect (mythic items tend to be more powerful).
- Comparing full build champions without considering other scalings the user might have (like rageblade not affecting krakken).
- Comparing an instance of damage that comes out of 3 attacks vs one that comes out of 1. I know you are trying to only compare the effect but that's part of the power budget as well. If for some reason botrk was changed to triple damage once every 3 attacks, this would again be very different.
Seems to me that in any real world scenario, even with game factors being very tuned to Krakken effect being good, Botrk effect would be a bigger increase in damage and more reliable on top of that.
the more penetration you have, the less effect the true damage have. The true damage is every 3rd attack, meaning the 2 other attacks still have low value. So you not suppose to build penetration then just for the true damage to have value? Also the problem with tanks, is just as much shielding and healing and well as hp. True damage every 3rd attack, won't solve that much as people think. It's not like that one true damage hit is what killed the tank.
Imh, killing tanks you need ap damage dealer aka cassiopeia, and an auto attack damage dealer aka vayne, which have physical damage, crit and armor penetration. Then support boost your damage even more with items and kit, and then your tank maybe have black cleaver or abyssal mask to help damage even further. It's teamplay! But can you teamplay in solo queue?`no.
why does tank exists then why does armor and mr does even if bork there i can easily die from an aa from cait with 3 item while i am 6k hp sion full items and 300 armor
Hey i really like your videos, but i think you made some mistakes. I checked the numbers on a 3800 hp / 340 armor dummy in practise tool (to compare with the Shen data) (patch 10.23)
1. Kraken Slayer base dmg is 60. The tooltip in the league client displays the wrong number (it also shows 60ad, but gives 65). With no bonus ad and only Kraken Slay in Inventory, my true dmg is 79 (so per hit it should be around 26/27 dmg)
2. The BotRK on-hit dmg was higher in my test. Against this dummy, my BotRK dealt 60 dmg more than just a normal aa with 40 bonus ad (BotRK gives you also 40 bonus ad), thus "50% BotRK" should be around 30 dmg
Taking that in consideration, i get to the conclusion that BotRK deals more on-hit dmg than Kraken Slayer.
How does the botrk damage deal a different amount of damage that what it says?
It would have been funny if Phreak started with saying "This is going to be a fairly quick video" and then we just saw him in practice tool doing what you just said for like a few seconds and then the video ends.
@@Pulo747 you are right. I made a mistake and had cut down equiped, wich amplifies the BotRK on-Hit dmg, but not the Kraken Slayer passive. The 15% bonus dmg of the Lord Dominiks has the same interaction.
@@rainbowpaw1806 I think that is because damage modifiers like cut down or exhaust don't affect true damage. Maybe that favors botrk a little more in the comparison, since damage amplification is a little more common than damage reduction (at least on top of my mind).
16:55 Here is the conclusion
I see the numbers, and the message they portray. But in practice, it's champ design that makes them both kinda worthless. A lot of adcs aren't meant to auto attack a whole lot, and the adcs that do auto A LOT aren't super duper popular rn, except vayne, because she has %max hp dmg and true dmg. %max hp dmg>true dmg>%hp dmg.
So I'd say the complaint other people are getting at is, even if the true dmg is "good" the champs that would use it aren't so the items still worthless.
Plus like you said, you omitted a lot. You gave kraken it's ad, but if you gave bork it's slow utility plus it being slightly cheaper. It would seem favorable to give up some random small percentage dmg. Especially since 6 items isn't what people build for, at 6 items you would in fact have the armor pen to make the numbers normal again.
All this to say, it doesn't matter lol. The ranged adcs that this item is meant to synergize with aren't meta rn. And bork is far more popular top, in tool and the argument becomes completely different.
If if your argument is true dmg is more anti tank FOR ADC'S. Then sure, but on the whole it isn't. If you account for how many champs, have %hp/% max hp vs true dmg. The true dmg is often on massive cooldowns or is an execute, almost as if it's an admittance of how generally weak true dmg HAS to be to be in the game at all. Whereas, %hp can safely be tuned because the enemy can always build against it. But that fine tuning I'd what makes %hp better.
Yi Is like a perfect case study. Hes so strong because he can get so much true dmg off so quickly, but his passive and ult and even Q all work around FACILITATING that. Many popular ADC'S rn either build ap, or are pokey/lethality/spell blade champs. Straight auto attackers can't compete with other ads bot usually because of the raw dmg.
Vayne rolls up on a Jhin. She ult, q autos two or 3 time. Jhin Auto, W Q's autos. Vaynes dead. She isn't rewarded for being anti tank against another ad.
Like you said against Jhin bork and kraken are the same meaning, bork which gives more utility is better.
Like I said though, "purely antitank" has to do with which lanes perspective we talk from. Top doesn't have too much true dmg.
If vayne and fi's true dmg was flat and not %max hp. They would suck, I think that answers the question for me. If vayne w was physical dmg it would still be useful in lane, and by the time you got to fighting tanks it would probably not matter a ton, if you built properly. Same for fi.
That's just my lowly opinion though
great video but why is the description sound like a cryptic threat?
How about %health true damage :)
a reply to the question above
Vayne mains:
Yes