Has Disney Star Wars destroyed The Force?
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- Опубліковано 11 жов 2024
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The Force was meant to provide characters a way to talk about themes of morality and principles of life. George Lucas said himself he was originally making something to help guide 12-year-old boys into adulthood.
He created the opposite
Too bad star wars isn’t for boys anymore..
Reys first movie she used advanced skills with 0 training. Darth bane had to go to school to learn his advanced skills lol
To me Midichlorians never ruined anything because they are not themselves "the force" but rather a byproduct like mold.
It would have been perfectly in line with canon for example to have a "Darth Nihilous"-like character who was actually undetectible because their count was under-reported as they fed on their own midichlorians, or perhaps just lived in a region of space they weren't propogating due to cosmic abnormalities.
I disliked it from the start. I understand that they are not the Force itself, but they confuse things and distract from the mythical nature of Star Wars.
@@StarwarsNut2 So you don’t think there should be an explanation for why some characters can use the force and others can’t? Why is Star Wars the only franchise where this is okay?
Me too I thought that the midichlorians were just a scientific way of understanding the force
Something of a term Jedi scientist use to describe it
@@emberfist8347 I think it should be like any other talent. Some people can learn the guitar better than others because they have both natural skill and devoted focus. Others just can't. We don't need an explanation for that. The Force can be like any art in that manner. Because the Force is mostly a soft magic system, treating it like artistic talent works perfectly.
@@StarwarsNut2 Except even soft magic systems like Harry Potter explain why only certain people can use magic.
What is more interesting than a magic system? The way characters use it. Their relationships with it. Magic in a story is not memorable when it’s just a bunch of powers heaped together. It has to have meaning, substance and coherence.
That's why the Force, especially in the original trilogy, is perfect. I believe in seeing more variety of abilities based on the individual Jedi but it must never be random. It must always be related to the themes of Star Wars. From what I've seen the Force is connected to the users mindset, heart, and spirit of will. It's a perfect character-based system. As you stated, it's about "the way characters use it". That is why Luke's heroes journey is connected to him learning about and growing in the Force.
I think the best example of how the Force works is in A New Hope when Luke turns off his targeting computer and uses his instincts to blow up the Death Star. The best example of Light and Dark is in the Throne Room in Return of the Jedi.
The Light is stronger than the Dark, but it's also much more subtle. Little warnings of danger, hints and intuitions, the way events play out.
A user of the Dark Side is likely one of the mightiest individuals around, as they draw power to themselves and hold it. But they are still only just that: an individual, one lone person. By opening themselves to the flow of the Force and giving themselves to the universe, a servant of the Light Side becomes much more than just an individual; they become part of the wave that is flowing against the Dark. The Force is with them, and they are with the Force. This is how they manage to defeat the users of the Dark, despite being weaker in might.
Of course, if they try to fight the users of the Dark while not fully open, then they aren't able to do this. The more the Dark Sider can confuse and distract the Light Sider's focus, with taunts, temptations, threats and other circumstances, then the more it becomes just a contest of personal power. And in that kind of fight, the Dark Sider will always win.
That's the drama of these fights. Can the Jedi remain true to themselves, or will they give in to their own dark side and lose their high ground?
George Lucas said that the dark side is selfish and creates imbalance , it gives power but then a person fears losing the power and fear leads to anger ,anger leads to hate and hate to suffering.
@@aramisone7198 ye. The servants of the Light can do something the users of the Dark can't: they can lose. The Jedi can get beaten down over and over and still stand up and win out, because they have given themselves to the universe. The Sith on the other hand must win every single fight, or they lose everything.
Yoda concentrates to lift an x-wing out of the swamp. Rey just introduced to the Force, lifts a boulder field... 😮
Its a girl boss power😅
@@aramisone7198 Rey tells Yoda, "I was once a learner. Now I am your Master."
Forget the xwing, Luke had to concentrate to lift a few relatively small rocks but Rey instantly lifts a boulder field
Hey, Thor. I'd like to expand a little bkt on what you mentioned about midichlorians. A lot of people argue that midichlorians ruin the mystery of the Force by giving it a scientific explanation, but I think that's a misreading of what they actually bring to the table. Midichlorians don't explain the Force itself; they’re just a biological link between the Force and living beings. If anything, the introduction of midichlorians adds another layer of mystery, especially when you look at how Darth Plagueis in the Darth Plagueis novel dives deep into researching them. The more he learns, the more questions he has. His experiments show that understanding midichlorians doesn’t necissarily get him closer to controlling the Force-it just opens up more unknowns.
In a way, this also ties back to how science and mysticism have been intertwined in real life. Alchemy, for example, was a precursor to modern chemistry but was still deeply influenced by mystical and religious beliefs. Alchemists didn’t just try to understand the physical world; they believed there was something divine or spiritual about the transformations they were witnessing. The more they experimented, the more their findings pointed to something greater and unknowable beyond the scientific process.
So midichlorians are kind of like that. Sure, they offer a framework for understanding how beings connect to the Force, but they don’t explain the Force itself. Instead, they enhance the idea that the Force is this vast, mystical energy field that transcends full comprehension, even as we try to study it. Just like in our world, the closer we get to understanding something scientifically, the more we realize how much we don’t know.
But that's just my own perspecrive. Ever since the prequels came out, I've always felt like the only guy who actually liked the introdiction of midichlorians. Maybe I'm off base and just trying to justify their existence to myself, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on this perspective. What do you think?
I agree that Midi-Chlorians do not explain the Force and (as far as we know) the main function they have, beyond making life possible of course, is allowing Force users to hear the Will of The Force whispered to them. I think the issue many have is that they do seem to put a number on potential. That the more you have, the more powerful you can become.
@@thorskywalkerI don't really see the issue with the last part. Clearly every force user has some cap to their power given how some are stronger than others. Just look at the Jedi council, the power levels vary greatly.
That's almost exactly how I thought of it, glad I'm finally not alone.
@@146zigzag3Yeah, I remember Kenobi having less force aptitude than his peers but he was still able to become a high council member through a lot of training and studying.
@@thorskywalker I want to add that midichlorians were inspired by mitochondria, which can increase in both number and efficiency through different forms of exercise. So why couldn’t midichlorians respond similarly to specific training, allowing individuals to enhance their connection to the force over time? This would make force potential dynamic rather than fixed, explaining why someone with a lower midichlorian count could eventually surpass someone with a higher count through more focused training.
I personally don’t see how adding any amount of quantifiability undermines the story. While it’s true that midichlorians seem to put a number on potential, this doesn’t mean that the potential is solely determined by that number. Just as in creativity and exercise, some people may start with more natural ability, but everyone can cultivate and develop their skills.
The reality is that individuals have different starting points and potentials, but those who dedicate time and effort to training can surpass those with natural talent who may train less or not at all.
Rather than solely defining one’s potential, midichlorians can shed a light on how effort, training, and genetics contribute to one’s connection to the force.
The answer to pretty much every "Has Disney ruined X?" question is always "YES"
Nothing is ever that black and white
Only the Sith deal in absolutes
@@kodyshaw6991 Pure evil can only do evil stuff. Just like Disney
"That's not how the Force works."
Easily the most ironic line that perfectly sums up the way Disney handles the Force.
The Irony is strong with this one
Very meta indeed 😂
How I loathe that line and how it dates when TFA came out.
I feel like the general population's primary association with the Force leans too much into "levitation" and at that point it basically is wingardium leviosa
Yes, they saw the force unleased and decided thats what the force is.
Regarding the "scientific" explanation for the Force, I was a bit taken aback by this introduction, but it didn't bother me too much in itself. The problem is how badly it was introduced in contrast to the original trilogy's more mystical approach.
If we go back real world examples, there are many cases of event or phenomenon that was thought as mystical or magical, only to be explained by science later. The fact that Star Wars went the other direction when taking the movies in the order of their internal chronology makes little sense at first.
However, let's remember that Star Wars has incorporated many fantasy tropes into a sci-fi setting. A pretty common trope is the "lost knowledge" one, often coupled with "extinct civilization". By this standard, it _would_ have been possible to have ancient knowledge of the Force being science based, only for this to be lost and new generations considering it more as an occult power instead.
And the problem is... that there is barely a single generation gap between the first and second trilogies, with one of the main linking characters (Obiwan) having the scientific knowledge required. He was discussing midichlorian count with Qui-Gon. But with Luke he was talking about it in spiritual terms. Even the politicians of the Empire seemed to count the Force as some doubtful religion. Motti: "Your sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you..." This is pretty strange assuming that it was well established scientifically _in his lifetime._
You can say that most people might have mostly forgotten about it since the emperor did his best to frame the jedi as villains and erase them from history, but influential figures... and Old Ben Kenobi himself should know better. This is the contradiction that was introduced by the prequel trilogy.
The entire Witches of Dathomer thing is something that I didn't care for, nor the zombie crap.
Yeah, I prefer how they were portrayed in the EU. They were just Force Users split into two factions. Those on the lightside and those who turned to the darkside.
@@Deuteromisin fairness they did still use "Sith" sorcery, but it was more grounded in normal force applications.
@@Deuteromis The Nightsisters was the term used for the Dark side faction which is what we see in the Clone Wars.
If ESB was made today
"Teach you the force i will. Very quick and easy it will be"
The difference between science and magic is knowledge and wisdom. Disney has neither and have made Star Wars a parody of itself.
No it's not. The wise wizard archetype. Science is logical, magic can be faith based.
@@Thed538dhsk the real world shows us that religion can be logical and science faith based too.
Knowledge is knowing why and how something works, wisdom is knowing what a tool is and when to use it, even if you don't know how or why it works.
So in a sense if you can code you're a scientist/engineer, if you can use the resulting app you're a technician.
To uneducated folks they all look like wizards. Disney is completely staffed by uneducated folks and thus they can't distinguish between magic and the force.
they pretty much turned it into generic super power telekinesis. they made it so trivial and boring.
My gripe that no one else has picked up on is that in the Original Trilogy it seemed like each force user had a power that was their specialty. The Emperor had Force Lightning and Vader had Force Choke. Luke also had Force Choke but that was because he was Vader's son and it connected him to Vader. It was kind of like how old Kung Fu movies often had a big boss with a crazy weapon that only they used, like a silver clawed hand on a chain that they would whip at you and choke you with.
Now EVERYONE can do Force Lightning and Force Choke, so they're no longer special. I feel like they should have given Dooku a new power, like Flaming Hands or the ability to crush his opponents or an invisible blade made of the Force.
They kind of gave that to Yoda--he had like a glowy ball thing he used to absorb Dooku's lightning bolt and throw it back at him. Kinda lame, but at least it was original.
to me it was more like "i'm especially good at this thing because i trained more doing this move", so the reason why Palp had force Lightning was because he trained him self to be extra good at it and Darth Vaders force choke was a sub use of "Telekenisis" which he might have found extra use full for him
For better or for worse this has always been happening. Legends went nuts with force powers, and now been happening again with mortis, world between worlds, or is just a superpower. I do like some of the new stuff but I can’t deny it hasn’t been as spiritual since the ot.
"That's not how the force works!" became a popular meme for a reason.
When i was a kid i used to think the Midiclorian Count was Star Wars version of Power Level ( DBZ) something that meant little more than just a number to give an idea of power
Lucas Force powers worked like a mix of ESP and old school Kung Fu abilities.
By the early EU in the 90’s, they tossed some sorcery in.
By the Clone Wars cgi series, they made it like witchcraft for the Witches and Night Sisters.
Now-a-days, they just use it however. Even having characters that go from a 0 where they aren’t able to even touch the Force to a 5 where they have the confidence to use what ever Force ability as if they have had years of training and experience like Rey and Sabine.
Avada kedavra! Rey dies, problem solved.
Rey's the Disney Chosen One. She somehow lives. ;-) or is it. ;-(
“Somehow Rey Palpatine returned.”
Hey Thor, have you ever created an original character for Star Wars? If so, feel like sharing it?
He has. Years ago he started his own version of the sequel trilogy and came up with a few new characters. I'm pretty sure you cam still find the videos where he talks about them and shows concept art.
I answered this question in a recent video.
@@thorskywalker Oh I know about those for your Sequels. These were more like growing up as a kid if you ever did.
That's my fault for not being specific.
Whether it’s a soft or hard magic system doesn’t bother me as much. I think the biggest issue for me is treating the Force like it has no rules. I don’t mind it being mysterious or having some explanations like Midi-chlorians. But keep it consistent.
To me the Force has both soft and hard sides. The hard is anything they can use or understand about the soft side of the spectrum. The Force as a soft system has themes, not direct rules; things like nature, instinct, will, and morality. The hard has rules for specific powers. I personally want to see different abilities unique to individual Jedi to expand on the mystery and to reintroduce the question of what it can do. We have become too comfortable with the videogame rules of telepathy, precognition, and telekinesis. The most important point that must never be changed, though, are the themes that Star Wars conveys.
@@StarwarsNut2 I would say that the force is indeed both soft and hard. An example of extremes for each side is Lord of the Rings for soft and Mistborn for hard. Star Wars falls neatly between those two. One important aspect of it is to think of what an application of the force is for. Soft is better for building mystique, hard for allowing the heroes to use it for problem solving and there are other aspects as well. In Disney's case, the main use seems to be "whatever fits the current scene the best" which is very short sighted.
Awesome video. In a video recently the super knowledgeable star wars UA-camr said of the witches of dathomir that "they aren't using the force. Its just magic." To me that was kinda world shattering. The force should be the only unknown special influence out there. Magic is just so contrived and easily excusable. The force should have more depth and have better rules.
Personally in the EU I always saw it as special weaving of applied force abilities, like we would program a computer with console commands, at the core everything is on/off but but through applications we achieve so much more obscure uses.
They call it magiks. It’s both the light and dark side of the force and it’s just another way force users use the force. It’s the same thing just under a different name.
As the Force was originally presented, my understanding was that it was the natural way of things, to which most people remained oblivious. And mastery of it was simply learning to understand it, to connect with it, and to abide accordingly. Comparatively, I see "magic" as trying to manipulate the natural way of things with no real respect for it, connection to it, or understanding of how it works. There's an immaturity to it, and it's not hard to see how redefining the Force as "magic" would appeal to Disney.
@@BarefootPeasant Agreed. The Light Side is consensual use and the Dark Side is use against the Force's will. The most important aspect to me is not weather there are new abilities but how they relate to the themes of the Force and Star Wars. Things like will, mindset, heart, and connection to nature for example. The Acolyte completely cuts itself off from Star Wars altogether.
Hey Thor, I have never seen Midichlorians as the cause of people's force powers but rather as an indicator for them. Like they're just bacteria that feed off a person's connection to the force and therefore force sensitive people have more of them in their blood.
I'm just curious to what you think the prequels wanted to convey with the midichlorians as well as to what would be the more interesting interpretation for the story.
I did not say they were the cause. I did not say they are the Force. I said they seem to quantify Force potential. Period.
It amazes me that we still have people who think that midichlorians are the force. 🤦🏾
Brandon Sanderson fantasy author wrote 3 Laws of Magic
1 An author's ability to solve conflict with magic is directly proportional to how well the reader understands said magic.[20]
2 Weaknesses, limits and costs are more interesting than powers.[21][82]
3 The author should expand on what is already a part of the magic system before something entirely new is added, as this may otherwise entirely change how the magic system fits into the fictional world.
All of these rights were ignored for the sequel trilogy.
Force is now reminiscent of Superman in the Silver Age where he kept getting new powers out of nowhere and it was one of the reasons DC rebbotted the entire universe
If you want to develop a magic system, I would recommend you learn Brandon Sanderson's three rules of magic. Knowing them tells you a lot of what's wrong with Disney's application of the force and also makes it easier to explain the problem.
The introduction of generic magic is where they are going. Been talking about it for a long time. It's downright sad.
One other thing we “learned” about The Force. Its powers include Vulcan style mind melds and years of Jedi training can be downloaded through a mind meld so the recipient can go from novice to Jedi Master in a matter of hours. Lame.
I think that the force in interpreted through the cultural lens of the people trying to describe it. The Jedi see it as something the flows through and around you, while the Dathomiri witches see it as a green goo. I thought the Acotlyte coven was cool that they interpret it as a thread. While the Sith see it as something to dominate and wield through the strong emotions of Hate and Anger.
I definitely agree with the commenter that the force has become a deus ex machinna to rescue poor writing -- even in the Mandalorian with some of Grogu's timely interventions. However, what concerns and annoys me more is the superpowerification of the force, as you mentioned briefly.
Part of the charm of the force for me has always been that it wasn’t all that powerful, and when it was shown to be most powerful it wasn’t the telekinetic or overtly physical element, but the internal effect on instinct and perception, such as with Luke making the shot to destroy the Death Star. That force powers weren't god-like, weren't beyond the realm of mere mortals to counter and defeat with discipline and/or skill, made force users more interesting characters, more grounded in and impacted by the world around them. Palpatine couldn't bludgeon his way into power with force lightning and spinny lightsaber moves, he had to spend decades carefully manipulating and shaping the Republic in all its complex aspects, of course using force powers of persuasion, disguise, and so on along the way, but also just with old fashioned charisma and guile. His story is all the more compelling because the force isn't an overwhelming, well, force.
Further, if the only thing that can regularly threaten a character is a specific tool or skillset that is beyond most people to ever hope to attain, you've created a kryptonite problem as well -- to create a sense of real danger and conflict that the character struggles to overcome, you are forced to make this counter-power increasingly common and thus not as exclusive, creating a discreet class of superheroes and supervillians which all but moot the struggles and abilities of the non-superpowered people and world. This makes both of these groups more boring at best, obnoxious and absurd at worst
I get that some people, and some directors, love the spectacle of excessive powers like this, but aside from undermining the thematic elements of the force, turning it into a superpower ultimately undermines the variety and tone of Star Wars itself. If a skilled bounty hunter, a Mandalorian or Echani warrior, or, say, a cunning politician can equal or surpass a force user without the force, even with as powerful and useful as it is without being turned up to eleven, you have not only better antagonists, but a more compelling world of people and factions with unique abilities and attributes worth investigating -- and you don’t lose the uniqueness and power of the force to do it, either.
Well said👏
A lot of franchises fail this way, it isn't just Star Wars. Harry Potter did it with hard rules in the first few movies, but then people end up just whipping spells at each other in the later ones with no words. The Last Airbender does this with Korra turning bending and "spirit bending" into a soft magic system from the hard rules set out in the original cartoon.
I actually got a lot of hate on the Star Wars Reddit for making a post about how I actually like midi-chlorians because they are a kind of “potential meter“ and what separates our regular citizen and a Jedi is Simply effort and purity of the “soul“ I’d like to imagine that this is how Chirrut Îmwe is able to use the force despite not being Jedi or a magick wielder
Hey Thor,
I am constantly wondering about the discrepancy in the two things being mentioned in the prequels, or rather about the prequels. George Lucas said that in the prequels the Jedi are at the height of their power, yet in the prequels council members say the Dark Side diminishes the Jedi‘s ability to use the Force multiple times, either directly or indirectly.
My question then is, what are your thoughts on this? What was Lucas telling us when he said “height of their power” but then put “we can’t use the force as well” in his movies?
Love your videos, keep ‘em coming 😊
The lightning bolts erupting from the Emperor's finger were always the most powerful and dramatic manifestation of the Force. It was a Dark Side power used by the most powerful Sith in the galaxy. Now a days, Force Ghosts can manifest themselves and easily use it to affect the material world, Rey is all the Jedi and she can resurrect people. The more diverse and powerful the Force becomes in each iteration of Star Wars, the less sense and continuity it makes in regard to the original. The more the Force can do anything, the less special it becomes.
Force lightning wasn’t the most powerful manifestation of the force. It’s just a weapon. The Mind Trick is far more powerful in that it can end fights before they start. It is said to work only on the weak minded, but I suspect two force users locked in a duel are attempting to not only read each other’s next moves but also to influence then similar to The Mind Trick.
It can also be argued that Palpy was using his powers on a grand scale, affecting the entire galaxy, or at least the Imperial armed forces.
I remember when The Force Unleashed came out, I thought it was amazing. Pulling a Star Destroyer out of the sky? F ya! And then I found out it was added to the EU canon... I was so disappointed. It was a lot of fun but it was just a random video game so it didn't matter that IMO it took some liberties with The Force, until it wasn't just a random video game anymore.
Lucas said only HE really understands The Force, and Disney has been phukkn it up in that interview from the Spring.
I think it makes a lot of sense that a highly Advanced society would develop some kind of Science to measure this crazy Force. They had that device in the Jedi Academy Trilogy was it? And regardless: Anakin had WAY more Midichlorians than Obi-Wan, but he still lost when they matched Sabres/Force powers.
“It doesn't stop being magic just because you know how it works.”
Idk if they've "ruined" the force, so much as they've made it something that's not special, uninteresting. But they've done that to more than the force, it's the whole franchise.
Yes. In addition to your examples they've been trying to make lightsabers into magic wands essentially making them the equivalent of Harry Potter wands with the Kyber crystals.
Hey Thor, I was wondering what your opinion is on the Dawn of the Jedi comics in the old EU. I wonder what you think of how it inaccurately portrayed balance in the force and how it explained the Jedi began, and how they left out what canonically took place right afterwards where they realized what true balance is and ended up in a Civil War between the light siders and dark siders. I am also curious how you think Disney will handle the upcoming Dawn of the Jedi movie and how you think they should handle the upcoming Dawn of the Jedi movie.
@@djcody492 I am certain the series was cancelled before it got to the point of the Force Wars which would make balance clear still I saw idiots act like the Je’daii are what the modern Order should be.
It would be great if new things we learn about the force didn't contradict what we knew before.
The force has always been a kind of magic especially the darkside
Personally, I believe Lucas’ decision to create midichlorians was driven by trying to find a way to convey Anakin’s power in the Force. Sure, he could have said something like “I feel he has a strong presence in the Force,” but the usage of a quantity and subsequent comparison to Yoda, a known master of the Force, delivers that point more clearly.
@@GGBlaster There is that and he needed an explanation for why the force can only be used by certain people.
The force will always be microscopic bacteria talking to people,...ALWAYS!!!
I tend to agree with kaleiohulee6693. My preference is for the Force to be a "spiritual part of nature," mostly unknown, where we have to fill in the blanks ourselves. But I also agree with you that if Star Wars is going to be a continuing saga they have to eventually give us more details on this foundational aspect of the story. If nothing else, slowly filling in the blanks makes it possible to come up with ideas and characters for new stories. Like Chirrut Îmwe and the Force Monks of Rogue One. Without the idea of midichlorians from the prequels, we wouldn't have the concept of different degrees of Force sensitivity, and the idea that someone could devote their life to the Force but only perceive it in the most basic way. It's a detail that makes the world richer and more complex.
But as you said, adding to the Force can be problematic. The biggest problem (one that they've definitely fallen into) is power creep. Making Jedis more and more powerful makes it harder to write stories where they have relatable conflicts. Back in the prequels both Yoda and Palpatine had trouble throwing the "senate pods" at each other. I think that's about as powerful as Jedis should get for now.
The second problem is getting too detailed and esoteric, giving so much information that the Force becomes just another magic system from a fantasy novel. The stuff with the Force Gods threatens to go in this direction, but we still know so little about them it isn't a problem yet.
Why keep the force "weak" if the Light is supposed to defeat the Dark?
If Dark Siders like Nihilius can devour all life on the planet, or Vader is confident the power of the death star is "insignificant compared to the force", how can the light possibly overcome the dark?
Surely Luke, or any Jedi, needs the physical strength to at least keep up with these dark side users, even if he doesnt use overtly big displays of power.
I'm not saying there needs to be a focus on "powerscaling" , the force is more than a superpower, but if the Light must overcome the Dark then the Light must match the Dark if not surpass its power. In a way thats narratively satisfying of course and not just a "beam struggle" seen in most anime.
@@socialaccount0000 The way the light surpasses the dark side is simple. Under Lucas before you had planet scale powers, the Sith sought the secrets to live forever. The Light Side was the only way you could live after death as the Jedi ironically aren’t clinging to life or seeking immortality so they get it while the Sith who want it find it is out of their grasp due to their greed.
That is the problem with making Star Wars cartoons. These new directors see nothing wrong with "Bugs Bunny in space", and make the ridiculous "force wolves" a part of live action, and Princess Leia able to exist in a vacuum without a serious case of the bends and suffocating. Science Fiction is not the same as Fantasy, and not ignored just because some director wants to bring Wile E. Coyote into the movie. The human body should not fly like Superman and Capt. Marvel from solar system to solar system instantly while being exposed to a vacuum. The rules about what a future spacecraft can do must be established, and any skill that present day humans are incapable of should be established by at least recognizing the fact that something has taken place that altered their abilities.
The Force exists, independent of what Disney does or doesn't do. There is a guiding force in the universe. It speaks to each of us in a still, low voice; when we quiet our own minds and egos enough to let us listen. The great sages of the past understood it, when it spoke also to them. It is the source of light and goodness in our life. Do you feel it move through you? and with you?
i never found the sentiment that Midicloriens destroy the force, it's a lot more just an explanation of why someone is force sensitive and someone who's not, the Force in it self is still wary spiritual of a concept since seemingly it acts thrue people differently depending on their morality
Fantasy settings utilise 'magic' systems in many different ways and they're usually built along the rules the author used to structure his vision. Lucas SW definitely had a premise for how the Force and force sensitives worked. This is why the EU worked so well, most of the stories were built within the context of the boundaries that George Lucas himself had set up.
On the other hand, you have disney sw. It pays no heed to context and setting, because; I've had a couple a couple zoom calls, some warped world views and played the D&D tutorial and you know what, lets mash all that together and write a story about my life, politics and agenda and get paid $300+ million to visualize that.
Oh, disney does not care about lore, continuity or anything else that matters. They care about your ever compliant wallet.
Just magic. Exactly. Total misconception by people not knowing Star Wars.
Honestly, this year may have been the worst year for Star Wars since its conception.
I found zero issue with Rey's ability to lift rocks to free her friends. They were in the heat of battle and her friends were trapped. We also weren't aware of Rey's power level, which is borderline Palpatine. That said, there have been situations where people have been so overrun with adrenaline in life or death situations where they gain hysterical strength to lift the corner of a car. The force hasn't been broken in the Disney era. 😂
Is this even a question at this point? Of course they have.
Hey Thor. Yes.
The mot stupid thing is still the "space face-time calls". If force users could just pop-up when you showered or were on the toilet. Why did the Jedi use comlinks in the clone wars?
And if you could fight someone, without being in the same place. Why didn't Jedi just jump in through the force and helping others. It is so stupid that it makes everything, at least after TFA completely uninteresting to watch. Everytime there is some problem coming up there is a new forcepower to solve it
The Farce Engorged
Been saying this for SO LONG! 100% agree, it's way too much and becomes too much out of reach...the force original felt "doable" somehow, which was a big appeal...the new stuff is crazy.
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For the last time. The prequels didn't turn the Force into science. The midichlorians are a gateway between life and the Force, not the Force itself. The midichlorians are basically the Star Wars equivalent of chi pathways.
@@vetarlittorf1807 I will never understand the hate for the MidiChlorians. It’s a fun Star Wars idea. It feels similar to power levels from DBZ.
@@Steel-101 The primary problem in the fanbase regarding midichlorians is that the idea takes away from the mystery around who will have the potential to become a Jedi. Particularly when it comes to Palpatine's purge. Rather than having to wait and see if someone will demonstrate any Force ability (Anakin's piloting skills, Ahsoka's communion with animals, etc.), you can just run a blood test and get a midichlorian count!
The problem is compounded from the Clone Wars and Rebels series both having storylines involving the Jedi compiling secret lists of possible children to be recruited as younglings. Rather than having to rely on bounty hunters or Inquisitors stealing the lists, Palpatine could have simply maneuvered the Senate to mandate blood testing for all children within the Republic and secretly received the results for midichlorians.
No, the force isn't chi. And midochlorians are microbiological aka science fiction. They stop the force from being spiritual into being a physiological phenomena
@@Steel-101star wars isn't DBZ. The moment they both are similar, star wars has ceased to be star wars. DBZ is just anime Superman.
@@Thed538dhsk Too late man, it already had some slight similarities with the midichlorian & crazy force powers from the old canon. I still remember people loving it years ago. So many gamer groups played Force Unleashed nonstop. They went nuts and yet there were still some limitations to the Jedi. And well look at that, Star Wars didn’t disappear. It was still Star Wars. Still fun.
I like the introduction of other names, interpretations, even belief systems around The Force. That would at least allow them to keep the air of mystery while exploring what the Force "could be" and not what it precisely "is." Right now we got a lot of information about what the Force "is." The Force "is" midichlorians. The Force "is" the Mortis Gods. The Force "is" The World Between Worlds. The Force "is" levitating rocks. I want less science & facts, more mysticism & religion.
As a Christian I've never seen how the midichlorians contradicts the more spiritual presentation in the ot. I believe the there is both a physical and metaphysical aspect to life. The fact we can observe things like biology doesn't take away the mystery of the soul. The midichlorians are just the way the Force manifests in the physical world.
Literally what I wanted to comment.
The soul has not been a biological measured microorganism. The force also isn't exclusively the soul.
Your religious choices are irrelevant.
@@Thed538dhskI was just using the soul as an example.
Irrelevant to what, my opinion? I made it clear it was. @@Zarie_Rose
The power creep in the EU and even clone wars always bothered me.
It's just another example of how badly Disney/Lucasfilm has handled Star Wars. The writers don't know the canon and/or don't care; they just write whatever they want in the moment.
Hey Thor, what are your thoughts on how Thrawn was portrayed in Ahsoka? I’ve read all but one of the Thrawn books, currently Thrawn: Alliances, and in Ahsoka, he’s a mere dim shadow of who he is in the books. In Ahsoka, he was weak and stupid but in the EU, he’s anything but. Thanks!
He wasn’t too keen on it.
I just ignore the whole Midichlorian thing. I also try to ignore the sequel trilogy as much as I can.
Force powers have become Deus Ex Magica
yes. and rey is a dnd warlock… all just intuitive magic, no more balancing a force on the balance or so….
Hey Thor, do you think bringing back Lumiya would be way easier than Mara Jade. You could even take the character in the different direction of redemption because there isn't that much attachment to her outcome in the Legacy of the Force. The stories are kinda similar where it concerns Luke Skywalker, but there's no baggage of marriage. (So similar in fact I wonder if Zahn didn't ripoff Lumiya)
@@Hello-bi1pm Zhan didn’t because she was firmly in the villain side and not an ally to Luke at any point or really in love with him. Zhan’s thing is sympathetic Imperials like Mara or Palleon and Lumiya lacked the necessary traits for that.
@@emberfist8347 her time as undercover agent seems pretty sympathetic, and why would she kiss Luke if she wasn't in love? Also Luke tries to redeem her. This sounds identical to Mara, and they're both redheads!
@@Hello-bi1pm Except her cover story was fake. She was an imperial spy who never loved Luke. Kissing an enemy as a spy doesn’t mean you love them.
Hey Thor I have a question are you interested in recommending other sci fi series like Warhammer 40k and the expanse series? I hope your respond back
Not necessarily. They haven't destroyed the Force itself but they have destroyed the... Characters who use it and what it takes to use it effectively and well. They have essentially handled the Force in a very bad way, Ashoka series is a good example with Sabine. Can't use the Force for the whole series basically and then suddenly gives Ezra a big push with it. It has become a token basically to earn or just use, nothing special.
Ever since I played KotOR as an early teen I've just thought that the Force can do ANYTHING! And after reading comics and books and information from Wookiepedia on stories that I haven't read myself, I figured that the Force is magic, it is a more physical form of magic but magic.
The limits to the Force isn't in the Force itself, it's in the user. From Palpatine himself we learn that the dark side ravages the body. Is it because it's the dark side, it's evil, or is it because the gain in power from the dark side is too much too quick? If it's the first, then ok, it's evil and it corrupts everything, especially the user.
If it's the latter, who's to say that that the light side wouldn't hurt the body in a way if you gained too much power too quickly but not from using the dark side or using your emotions. With the latter the limit of the user would therefore also be limit by their physical body, in a sense that you wouldn't be able to gain so much power in the Force that you could survive it.
The Jedi don't strive for power but for knowledge but knowledge is power, the more you know about the Force and understand it's pieces, the more power you have in the Force. What if that power was gained very quickly, like downloaded from a Force computer or another users brain?
Could that hurt the body if that knowledge would be too much for that particular body to handle?
I never understood the problem with midiclorians honestly. It doesn't take away any of the mystical elements of the Force. Midiclorians are building blocks, just like any atom that exists in everything, everywhere. Midiclorians are the building blocks that allows everything and everyone to have some form of connection to the Force, the more midiclorians you have, the stronger you are, or at least the easier you will in learning and perhaps even mastering the teaching of the Force. Doesn't mean that someone with a high midiclorian count is automatically the dominant person in a duel or the best Force user ever, Anakin lost plenty of times because he still had to learn how to do things.
Midiclorians are basically antennas for the Force and they have the best reception in the whole galaxy.
They are also essential to life, at least according to Darth Plagueis in the Book of Sith where he mentions that removing midiclorians from a persons body will eventually kill them.
George Lucas said once the dark side creates imbalance and corrupt, gives power and the user gains stuff but then comes the fear of losing it all and fear leads to anger , anger leads to hate and hate to suffering .
Um, it was movie magic the whole time. As well as a distillation of eastern mysticism and western mythology. Owen calls Ben a wizard in the first movie! You can call the Force a lot of things, justify it in any number of ways, but it’s just magic in space.
《Your Father's Flux Capacitor》
...honestly, i thought Lightsabers were cooler before i knew about Kyber Crystals...?
...that being said, they're still the coolest flippin' thing in the Galaxy!!!
👽 🖖 🤖
...imo, Dissney hasn't Destroyed any of their IPs, only their chances of Making Money with them...?
I like knowing more about how the force works but I still like a bit of mystery
Disney has just flat out destroyed SW as a whole.
I think I know what they could or should have done... don't "brand" everything they make as "Core Cannon Continuity" just putout stuff as "A Star Wars Legend Story" and something like "a SWL 'what-if' Story" - by not claiming that everything they make is the "final and 'real' version" they lower the stakes of each piece of media, something like The Acolyte - much as I disliked it for all the good reasons, would be A LOT less objectionable, if it were just marketed and visually tagged as being merely a "Star Wars Legend" ... and ya know, that basis worked pretty well for the whole EU for decades... don't like a book? well, for you it need never have happened, and it's existence is a non-issue. Sure you could talk about why it's "dumb" or whatever, but it's also easy to just ignore it. A new Game or Comic or Novel or whatever, can just say on the cover what Cannon Continuity it's part of. You could even have whole "sub cannons" for on-going alternates. While keeping the "Core Cannon Continuity" 'pure' and of consistent 'tone' - and yes, we can then easily... hardly an inconvenience... retroactively not DE- but RE-cannonize the sequels OUT of the "Core Cannon Continuity" and into what might be called say... "the Holdo Continuity" - and this then... allowing a Very Good Thing for LucasFilm to happen... they get to try again and make a proper sequel trilogy.
Hey Thor do you think any of the jedi from star wars and take on a space marine or a primarch from warhammer 40k
It’s a shame they treated the cast so bad in these movies daisy John and Oscar deserved better writing.
Increasing the power of your characters doesn’t make them more interesting. It’s something anime, superhero comics, and video games fail to learn at their own peril. The powers looking easy works once, but again and again it becomes impotence.
Go watch Star Wars aka A New Hope and notice the force only affects the mind, seeing the future not lifting things with the mind.
Darth Vader may be seen to choke people, but it seems he is scaring them to death with fear, again mind. I think the force is cooler this way really.
The jedi games depict the force correctly though.
I do not expect people who do not understand what the Force is, to tell stories involving it, where it is not portrayed as magic that just solves any immediate issue.
To people who don't care/want to think about it at all, it is magic. And magic can do anything when looked at dismissively.
What i think was special about idea of the force, was that anyone could do it. With the right mentality, enough training, you have that power within you too. And you can inspire yourself to be more like a jedi in your everyday life, to work on yourself, be stronger, more compassionate, kind, even selfless.
That is also why i refuse to give a time of day to people who say that good and evil in star wars is too black and white and for it to be complex or realistic it instead needs the shades of grayness. No. Not everything is a hard choice. Not every choice has shades of gray. Some choices are just to be a little nicer to a clerk, to tell your friends and family that you appreciate them. Or to be mean to your co-worker, what he has ever done to deserve you being nice to them or to bully someone because it makes you feel stronger, bigger, more important.
Through idea of the force, acts of pure selflesness and those born of sheer selfishness are everpresent and manifest even physically.
Everyday choices. For one to take this oportunity to take advantage of someone for our benefit, when no one is looking, when no one is there to make accountable. Because it is quick, easy, more seductive. You dont know this person, why would you care, you did good, you made your day easier, why would this make you guilty. It's just this once.
And this is the way of thinking. The little ways that dark side creeps in to in yoda's words: Dominate your destiny it will and consume you.
Just dont misunderstand one thing. It is not selfish to take good care of yourself, to get good sleep, be well fed, buy yourself a gift once in a while. No. Selfishness is when in doing so you take away from other people or harm them, like the sith like darth sidious does. And i also dont mean things like achievements, getting promotion in a job or bad break up because your heart wasnt in it anymore.
And dont get me started with gray jedi, which is just for people who simply want have the cake and it eat too without baking any. So uncivilized.
And i honestly believe that the story would benefit from having a jedi character with the lowest possible midichlorian count possible for a living creature, just for comparison between them, the average and skywalkers tier.
Ultimately my point is that every single one of us has this darkness, this shadow behind our persona as presented in jung's model of psyche. Acknowledging it, accepting it as part of yourself and choosing to still do good is how the strongest people are build. And that is also the story of Luke Skywalker. He inspired entire generations so we can be as strong and good as him, if we used just a little bit of force in our everyday life.
I completely agree that good and evil are instinctively obvious most of the time. We know it when we see it. If more of us would listen to that instinct the world could be a much better place. What I disagree with is Lucas' definition of it as selfless vs selfish. Selfishness can lead to narcissism but complete evil is more than that. Also, selflessness can be taken too far so that it is no longer good. Once you start putting morality into words you quickly realize that your subconscious was doing a ton of work to understand these things. Instinct makes it feel simple so that we can act decisively.
That's part of what made the Original Trilogy work so much better than the Prequals (in my opinion), show don't tell. A picture is worth a thousand words.
Nothing will ever compare to the absurd levels of force mucking about that Vitiate did in SWTOR
You're comment on our well people would welcome all of the lore of the Force that we knew today all the way back when the OT was released reminds me of the Robot Chicken episode where Darth Vader was telling Luke everything that the audience now knows about Star Wars and Luke just walks away.
Quick version: Yes, along with many other things.
Soooo true.
I have zero desire to consume any SW media anymore. I used to go to midnight premieres, preorder games, and the stickers/tshirts/sheets/whatever else I could find. I know there are millions that feel like I do.
So if that’s destroying it, then yeah.
Magic and superhero powers. Worked much better for me when it was mysticism and spirituality.
It stopped being that in the prequel films
@@Thed538dhsktbh not really cause look at all the mystic and spiritual stuff happens in the clone wars.
@@no22295 I only saw the 1st season of clone wars and didn't enjoy it. I hear it gets better especially in season 3. But from what I know it's still space fantasy, not superhero DBZ or Superman which is more science fiction. I guess maybe DBZ is a science fantasy version of Superman kinda?
Disney Star Wars destroyed Star Wars.
Not destroyed, obliterated!
I like the Midichlorians if for no other reason than it shows how dogmatic the Jedi viewed the Force during the PT era with them attempting to quantify and box it. In that regard, Mortis, etc, does add an interesting counterbalance. In the episode where Yoda first hears Qui-Gon the majority of the council doesn't believe it and after a 24-hour (?) group meditation fest can't hear him. In fact, there are times when Qui-Gon communicates to Yoda and none of them can hear it, but Anakin is walking by and can overhear it. A subtle reminder of what Anakin is truly capable of. But when they discuss life after death, Anakin can't/won't believe in it because that's what he was told, despite communing with QUi-Gon on Mortis and Tatooine. Because that's what he was told. The Bendu doesn't bother me because he isn't around enough to really matter. The Universe is vast and all kinds of strange things can exist. But we the fans, like the Jedi try to box him too. Strange stuff in Perdia sure, as long as it's handled carefully. But I fear that with the ST it is falling too close into the generic power area. Perhaps that's because I didn't see any true changes in Rey as she grew in power, like how Luke changed and because more a well, Jedi as his powers grew.
Truth be told, I loved the crazy overpowered Jedi from the old canon. The 2003 Clone Wars, Force Unleashed(1&2), the intense battles of the old republic, Lukes crazy strength in the comics, etc. It was fun man. Plus the insane speed of the saber fights. Now(disney canon) the Jedi powers feels weak, no proper choreography, and slow saber fights. Lol 😂. The only recent Jedi that feels similar to the old canon is Cal Kestus.
And they hate him, and the game that birthed him.
@@jayferguson9968
Wait, Lucasfilm hates Cal now? When did that happen? Lol 😂
@@Steel-101
'Wait, Lucasfilm hates Cal now? When did that happen? Lol 😂' - They'd leaked it when the game first came out; how they didn't like what was happening with it, and how people liked it more than everything they'd been doing with the franchise.
They've probably backtracked since then.
@@jayferguson9968 Oh ok. I didn’t know they disliked their success at first. Well hopefully Cals finale will be good.
I don't consider the characters in the sources you describe to be overpowered. Instead, I consider the post-2014 characters to be underpowered. But when Rey, ironically, is the only character who isn't underpowered, she just looks overpowered by comparison.
Now her rate of development, on the other hand…well, that's an entirely different story.
Jedi Order was institution during Republic era so they needed some sort of indicator who can be jedi. Midihlorians was for me never an issue but pepole think if something is mysterius you cant have way to measure it.
The main issue for me is how it has slowly devolved.
In the original series is was more mystical ability that required training and understanding of more things.
In the prequals while a lot of people do not like the first prequal movie making it a biological quirk... it was something that required training and honing one's abilities. it is why the Star Wars Clone Wars animated cartoon show that had the Jedi using the force to act like super heroes... was allowed to pass as it fit a narrative theme.
Even with Star Wars rebels it was a something in-between. A disney star wars show that had you have to learn how to use it, have moments within the narrative for it to work (sometimes hit, a couple time miss), and when you had the main kid use the Dark Side powers... it did grant more power and made things easier, but it was also unsettling as he had the storm troopers kill their own allies and then walk off the edge of the bridge making them all fall to their death.
It was powerful, but also unsettling. It had the light side being 'weaker' in a sense, but also more noble in a sense.
For the Sequals... It is magic that is granted as a quick and easy path. There is no training. No hard work or focus. You are either born with everything given to you... or you are handed everything. Any thoughts of hard work, training, or trying to improve yourself are for losers who will never achieve half of what you can do without breaking a sweat.
No seriously. Why bother using the dark side at all as it is only used by idiots who are too weak to use the force for real. The Light Side people get their powers so amped up that the dark side lightening ability feels like an apology gift to the dark side for how much weaker they are in training to train to use the dark side rather than being handed a light saber and effortlessly beating everyone without any training or effort put into it!
Rey? Learns the force exists three days ago and already beats the enemy wanabe siths who spent YEARS TRAINING with the force just to prove she is better than them. Luke tried to rush his training and lost a hand as Vader beat him senseless. Anakin lost his hand by an even better trained sith and needed Yoda to save him. Rey learned the word 'force' is also magic and then proceeds to beat every problem in her path without breaking a sweat.
Okay you might want to claim that makes Rey the exception out of the norm? Ashoka Sabine (not related to Rebels Sabine as they can be mistaken as two completely different characters from how they act) barely has any training, a low 'M-Count' so she isn't born special... and the moment she gets the force switch flipped she is able to do a bunch of force tricks without any training.
Two for two... what about that other show?
The very large flop as the dark side witches have an entire legion mind control a walking carpet and then all die when one jedi lady stops the mind control... also we have the heroes having to go out of their way to fail to ensure that the villains can win with even the male jedi lead dooming the galaxy because he didn't notice his apprentice having a different hair cut. Also the less training a person has the more likely they are able to beat someone as a lot of more well trained jedi die to a less trained padawan who flunked out... who also got another padawan to join him after he slaughtered all of her friends and family (and possible lover) by taking off his shirt and showing her his abbs and (redacted due to youtube censors).
Three for three and we still have more?
How about Obi-Wan couldn't do anything with the force, but the moment he gets his hero scene he is suddenly so super magically powerful he can easily solo Vader and save everyone... but also not kill Vader because that might make people question how canon works anymore just like how they failed to explain how killing someone doesn't kill someone (A lot of people died to only not die with no explanation).
For Disney Star Wars... you don't train. You are simply granted or born with power or your a guarantee failure.
Even Lego Star Wars required training!
Rowan Freemaker required training as he got some jedi/sith training and some training by watching how jedi countlessly murdered robot soldiers. Though of course his fight with his foe ended with her finding out where the item he was trying to hide was and got away with it. His victory over the droid boss also won due to outside intervention... and he did train in old jedi school place.
Remake the galaxy... I give it a shoulder shrug as the kid claimed he had some training, but mostly the universe got rewritten so who knows if that also affected how the force works. (technically rewritten twice, with Jedi Bob being the first universe, Sig being from the second universe (Disney Star Wars), and the third galaxy being the current universe (Darth Jar Jar Star Wars) so who knows how much of that is classic force, universe setting force, or how the force worked in the previous universe affecting them while everyone else is playing by the current universe rules?)
Overall I agree.
I do disagree somewhat on Obi-Wan. Lucas established that connection to the Force is influenced by your emotional state. Obi-Wan was in a deep depression with his guilt over failing to save Anakin, which created a mental/emotional block. It wasn't until he resolved his guilt and came to the final acceptance that Anakin was gone ("from a certain point of view") that he was able to clear that block and restore his prior strength in the Force.
Now, I'm not saying that the Obi-Wan series demonstrated this well. It didn't. But the pieces were there buried under the terrible writing and visual spectacle. The bit of Obi-Wan levitating out of the rock pile was all show, no substance, and him walking away from Vader bit was so illogical for Obi-Wan at that point that it demonstrated the writers had no idea how to actually end the story with both men believably surviving.
6:57 - Have you seen the Original Trilogy? "Strong with the Force". While the midichlorians may not have been a great idea, someone's quantity of strength with it is mentioned several times in the OT. Also, Midichlorians are not the Force. Midichlorians are not the Force. Midichlorians are not the Force. They are a go-between "living beings" and the Force, but they do not change what we know about the Force itself.
Have you seen it? Because I don't know what your point is about them saying someone is "strong with the Force" in the OT... when they're a Force user sensing it in others. Of course they're likely going to be able to sense how strong someone else is with it. Midi-Chlorians though are a whole other thing. It's heavily implied that M-Count is a good indicator for Force potential, and any individual can test for it. And I never have said or will say Midi-Chlorians are the Force...
They destroyed near enough everything lets be real.....
Midichlorians have no connection to balance it’s just numbers and science
Is the force the creator of the universe or is it created by all lifeforms?
Some believe this some believe that its very mysterious.
The Force has always been “magic.” But it worked and helped carry the story. Unfortunately, everything made since the prequels keeps introducing new lore, new monsters, and new supervillains with new superpowers. What has been overlooked is the notion that stories are about people. Not things. Not explosions. Not omnipotent and invincible supervillains. And not witches covens and patricide. The sequels are almost an homage to people-centric storytelling without actually achieving it. And that’s a problem. Lucasfilm under Iger-KK has lost its storytelling and has substituted big visuals and big budgets for it. That’s why it is so disliked.