Death of beatgrids, audio engineering for DJs, motorised jogs // Podcast
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- Опубліковано 2 лип 2024
- Join Phil Morse and the students of the Digital DJ Tips school, as they look at three burning topics in the world of DJing.
EPISODE NOTES
Beatgridding your music has been a necessary evil for digital DJs who want to use features like sync, loop, beat-tied effects, accurate hotcues, and so on, for many years. However, while beatgridding 2.0 improved on beatgridding 1.0 by handling songs with slightly varying BPMs a little bit better, not much has changed over the years - until now, that is - because new software is now able to use AI to basically kill manual beatgridding entirely. People, beatgridding 3.0 is here - and we talked about it in this pod, and what it might mean for DJs.
We moved on to talk about audio engineering for DJs and why it’s important for DJs to have at least a basic grasp of what audio engineering is, and how they can use it in their hobby. Whether it’s simply tidying up individual songs or making DJ mixes sound better, or going further and extracting audio from bigger pieces of work for use as a DJ, knowing your way around audio editors, audio repair software, and even audio routing software is a surefire way to improve what you’re capable of doing… way before you get to your decks.
And finally, this month we looked at motorised platters, spinning jogwheels, and asked the question: Why? They haven’t gone away, which you might expect to have happened since turntables stopped appearing in DJ booths, and - lo and behold - now even turntables are on the way back. What is the enduring appeal of having something spinning on your DJ gear? We came up with some answers.
As ever, this pod is supported 100% by the students of Digital DJ Tips, and it was recorded in a live webinar with lots of student feedback. If you enjoy it and you can, please do give us a five-star rating on Apple Podcasts. It really does make a difference.
Want to get your question answered on an episode of this podcast? Digital DJ Tips course owners get to ask questions in their student-only group. Your first step to getting involved is to buy a DJ course, so come and join our community at www.digitaldjtips.com
TIMESTAMPS
0:00 Intro
0:15 Episode overview
1:43 The death of beatgridding
16:05 Audio engineering for DJs
28:24 Motorised jogwheels
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I know the subject well since I work on beatgrid analysis for some time. Elastic beatgrids is not new and has nothing to do with AI, I worked on it 10 years ago (with MixVibes). Zplane music analyzer used by most DJ softwares also supported it for a long time. The problem was not detecting a variable beatgrid, the difficulties is to sync 2 songs with variable BPMs in realtime afterwards. Also editing a variable beatgrid is way more complex, Traktor has tried it. Considering that virtually 100% of songs has a fixed beatgrid (except if it is a mix rip or played live), it was decided not to do variable beatgrids to simplify the product. Where AI can help is to launch a beatgrid analysis on the drum stem, instead of the original track.
informative, interesting analysis… thanx for the insight…
“Virtually 100% of songs has a fixed beatgrid”
Not even remotely true.
You misunderstood me - I wasn't implying elastic beatgridding is AI. It was enabled by real-time pitch shifting as you know and also, as you say, the problem is how it is then applied to tracks on playback (personally I think Serato does this bit best as far as "beatgridding 2.0 goes").
Agreed, open format DJs play all types of music, much of which is not this way. I count myself among them.
@@digitaldjtipsRekordbox does syncing best: if you have fixed the beatgrids to perfection you can sync 2 tracks with variable beatgrids and it will take the master deck's tempo to keep the others in sync.
If it slows down or speeds up: boom. The other synced decks do to.
Serato can't do that. It straightens the playing tracks to the set sync BPM.
The analysis of Rekordbox could use some work though. And certainly the dynamic beatgrids. I do those manually.
All I can say is, thank u for this podcast… been following Digital DJ Tips for probably a yr or two and this podcast continues to be a godsend in terms of really understanding the wants and needs of the DJ community throughout the entire world… always informative, thought provoking, honest DJ equipment reviews, etc… thanx for the great content
Thank you Druck!
I love the leveraging of AI to lower the overhead associated with using digital software to dj. I would welcome being able to reduce the time required to find ideal transitions. It takes hours and as a busy parent and worker I don’t really have the time. Being able to pick up some new tunes and then point it to a specific crate and find potential mixes with my older tunes sounds wonderful. I’ve started doing this with my cue points I just name them after the track that works best. Sometimes 2-3 cue points on the same spot but for three different songs. I forget so it makes it easier for me to remember if I step away for a few weeks (very common for me). BUT it takes me hours of playing to do so. More AI dj copilot. I’m here for it.
Love this expression of the need here - thanks for sharing.
Audacity is one of the best music programs ever made!!! Love that you always shout it out.
Well, we use it all the time here!
Great talk DDJT...as to mororized jogs, I recently switched to a REV 7 and its just so much more fun than static jogs. You do have to aquire a few new skills (but a little practice makes perfect) and I'd never thought of scratching before I got the REV 7. Now I am well into it and its makes my (house/nu-disco) sets far more interesting to perform and to watch. NO need to "dance" behind the decks now, just mess around with the platters like a "real DJ". A simple babyscratch/drop scratch combo here and there and your blends become nore "edgy".
I agree with: a DJ will not be replaced by AI, DJ'S will be replaced by DJ's knowing how to use AI.
It's just changing.
I had a discussion with a DJ that was mad over the Rekordbox suggest tracks feature. "Why not just ditch the DJ then?!"
Oh boy. That was a run.... 😆
I love the sync it gives me more time for fx, and it's great for fast mixing in DnB
We mixed perfectly well, even fast mixing, in the days of Vinyl. No need for 'sync' if you are a proper DJ 🙂
I just finished going through all my tracks for the week, one by one, checking the beat grids in Traktor. 😂😂
Been going through 20,000 tracks. Deleted about half, shazaming and renaming unknowns. All details, genres, years ect. Starting to see light at the end of the tunnel
It's a good exercise anyway, anything that gets you engaging with your music is good!
You are 100% right. DJs who leverage AI will be the future.
My goal is to find 100 new-to-me songs a quarter. Not all of them make it into my core collection - but these are 100 tracks that I want to seriously consider playing out. I have outsourced HOURS of crate digging with the "you might also like" feature of Spotify, iTunes, etc. I still dig...but the suggestions are getting good. About 25-35% of the suggestions are good-for-my-audiences songs. This is a HUGE improvement over the more random methods I used to search for new music that were 0-10% effective. This has roughly doubled the number of new-to-me songs I find each quarter.
This will only improve further, probably pretty rapidly.
@@digitaldjtips I think the real power of this kind of AI assistance is that you can build multiple seed playlists for each major element of a wedding - Dinner Music, Kids Party Music, Old School R&B, Hip-Hop, Juke Box Love Songs, etc...and get GOOD suggestions targeted for each category.
I also DJ for professional dance competitions...and that is a TINY niche market, so there is not a ton of user selections to help train the AI. The usable suggestions for waltz, cha-cha, swing, etc still leave a bit to be desired...but they are still MUCH better than they were 5 years ago. I can build playlists of music that is appropriate for each dance, and get 10-15% good suggestions. That is still a HUGE improvement over general crate diving.
About the motorized platters: as a DJ who comes from vinyl and actually likes to do some scratching and a little bit of turntablism, motorized platters just feel better to me..... The "pulling" makes just more sense in my head because the platter moves together with the audio and I don't have to look at my screen all the time .... After some years of not djing I used a regular (not motorized) controller and it felt like walking on raw eggs all the time... Meanwhile I had a Numark NS7 and use a Rane One now.... For me it's really funny that DJs that usually use jog wheels find it harder to spin on motorized ones... To everyone his/her own but I would never go back to a not motorized option and I recommend it to everybody to give motorized platters a try
Yeah exactly, you're the classic case of a vinyl DJ wanting the same feel. Remember though all CDJs aren't motorised, so pro DJs as well are extremely used to not using motorised platers.
@@digitaldjtips 100% true.... I have the privilege, that I can/could bring my gear to all my gigs so far and I have to admit that CDJs or other regular jogwheel-gear would limit what I do a lot... Keep up the great work, love the channel
Fabulous show.. thanks for posting ❤. DJ from the 80s . Johannesburg
Glad you enjoyed it
Asked a question to Mix Master G when he had Pulse from Pioneer on his show a week or 2 ago about Rekordbox's woeful automatic Beatgridding when compared to DJpro. He explained that DJpro uses AI already to Beatgrid properly on the fly so its always bang on and Pulse commented that while he doesn't think Rekordbox is too bad at Beatgridding they are aware and are looking at other options to improve things on that department but hey who really knows when so. Just thought i would share :)
I think there is sometimes limited value in interviewing company people as their hands are tied on what they can say.
@@digitaldjtips Fair point.
Jeremy healy was the original Dj who played teen spirit in a dj set. Was big signature mix for him:)
Yeah at Renaissance I recall once :)
Actually, just to let you know the latest update in virtual DJ allows for variable beat griding and songs where the BPM changes.... And it's unbelievably accurate....
As a test, I have a song that starts at 103 BPM but then transitions up to 127 halfway through.... When I enabled the variable beat grid it properly labeled the spots where the BPM changes and it was spot on.
Wow, when did that update happen?
I’m a newish DJ. Started during Covid on a ddj400, so sync and stuff are natural to me.
However, once the software suggests the next song, set the mix point, perform the mix, add FXs, scratches for us, etc…what else is left for the DJ to do? Our sole job is just to make sure that the next song is right? The art of DJing would be reduced to that? I’m having a hard time wrapping my head around that.
I get that it’s the only thing that really matters to the crowd…but it doesn’t sound very fun for the DJ
Really enjoy the podcast
You don't HAVE to use the tools that are offered if you don't want to... plus we are a long way from what you describe.
I love my Denon SC5000M, I started on vinyl and the motorized platter feel is just perfect. The problem is, if I want to play out with all my skills I need to drag along all my equipment since no one runs anything but Pioneer. If your wanting to do anything more than bedroom djing or lugging along equipment to every show, motorized controller and laptop at minimum, I think your wasting time as a new dj learning skills on motorized decks that won't directly translate to what your going to play on 99% of the time. Unless your a specifically a scratch dj playing at shows with the proper setup. This is from a dj that has supported everyone from Numark, Rane, Denon and even Gemini, they all can make excellent gear that you will rarely see at a show that isn't specifically promoted by them.
...which is why the top DJs have riders where they can specify what they want. For everyone else, yes, you're right!
excellent exposition - not just nostalgia or looking good - or hipster - maybe analogue feels in a digital world - but faux feels perhaps - you and many others are very curteous - you could be like gettoutta here with your analogue feels and no chops
I'm currently dabbling with DJ.Studio and I think it does quite well suggesting what to mix next. No, it won't replace the DJ but it is meant to AUGMENT what you already have. IMHO, it's another tool in the toolbelt. It also has capability to separate instruments and whatnot (stems). That to me is a big time game changer. With all of that, you can more or less remix a track on the fly. I tried the "AI" beatgrid capability on 1970's disco tracks and it does very well with that as well. It's not 100% perfect but it's getting there pretty quick.
Yes - as we say, AI can be useful for quickly getting you 80% of the way there.
"I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that"
Daisy, Daisy,
Give me your answer, do!
I'm half crazy,
All for the love of you!
It won't be a stylish marriage,
I can't afford a carriage,
But you'll look sweet upon the seat
Of a bicycle built for two!
you've got me there.
Funny thing I was in a grocery store and this robot was checking the shelves giving feedback and it had electronic eyes.Soon it will read the room raise its arms and make the mix, get on the mic and say party people make some noise! lol
Blimey, where was that?
Where I see AI really being a step forward is more in music production, but not in the ways of writing songs.
I could see it being used as a tool to analyze a sound; and providing specifics of what instrument or VST you are using, it can suggest all of the settings on that device to get a similar sound.
That would be a very creative tool to have at your disposal.
I’ve studied sound design and yes it’s important to know the ins and outs, but just as AI helps with my career in computer sciences, it could do the same to help others become more creative with sound design, in turn giving us even more amazing music to dj with
"Thats really exciting because it lowers the barrier of entry to new djs"...Ya let me tell you how excited THAT makes me. Nothing like making one of the most oversaturated markets on the planet more accessible to people. If they lower the barrier of entry any further Pioneer and Serato will just start going door to door forcing people to DJ.
Pros have absolutely nothing to fear from amateurs, and there is always room at the top for the talented. Nobody has the right to be a gatekeeper, to pull up the drawbridge behind them. We love the fact that DJing is easier than ever to have fun with.
@@digitaldjtips respectfully disagree with the idea that "pros have nothing to fear from amateurs". Ive been doing this professionally for over 20 years and have seen the rates plummet drastically over that time. Years ago you could make a living at this where I live and DJs were making upwards of 1000K a night. Now the highest paying gigs in my city MIGHT give you $50 but most of them are "pay to play" where you either literally pay the venue or sell a # of tickets and play for free. Most of the talented DJs in my city have quit because there is no money in it and most of the venues just rotate through random college kids who don't know their head from their bottom. There's simply too much supply for the venue to actually care. Why on earth would a venue hire someone who actually knows what they are doing when they can just throw a cute girl up there and have the software do the mixing and build the playlist. Its not about "gatekeeping" and "closing the gate". Its about keeping the art alive by making sure the people performing actually know what they are doing and are at least minimally invested in doing the job well.
The comment on jules and is trumpet, he did that alot in early 90s. He would go it on breakdowns of tracks ect😂😂😂 was terrible but so cool at the time:)
I remember seeing him do it at Home in Manchester, wasn't the best to be honest!
The problem with editing your music is that everyone is using MP3's. You can't edit an MP3 without re-compressing it again, which lowers the audio quality.
Is Engine DJ regularly updated and do you think it will get the features you talked about in this show?
Yes, it is
Flawless "Ibiza" pronunciation ✅
Lived in Spain for many years 🇪🇸
What software takes care of the beatgrid? Rekordbox 7? I understand that it can help with hotcues, but beatgridding also?
All software has beatgridding in it, djay Pro is best.
I've been manually defining beat grids in MixMeister since 06 and have yet to find something better.
Wow, there's a step back in time!
I’m really considering exchanging my Flx 10 for the Rev 7 🤔
They're very different units indeed, just be sure why you're doing it.
what vexxes me of late (and its increasing) are the amount of tunes being released that have wonky BPMs! e.g. 130.8 ... electronic music by its nature at the production level is quantized. No producer ever sets a bpm to 130.4 and so when i grid new tunes i always get 1 or 2 out of say 30 that are wonky and need dynamic gridding. How can an electronic tune be out of time??? a live band yes, i get that, but not a drum machine!
As for AI suggesting transitions, thats very interesting indeed. As a dj i would like to think i know what to play next. I accept that the AI could suggest the next tune and this is in RB7, however from experimenting with it, its not that good at all but yeh its early days. Also the Auto-cue feature just isnt learning from the way i set cues, and its placing cues in all the wrong places even though my cue-settings are pretty rigid for every tune i prep e.g. 1st downbeat, 2nd - bassline, 3rd - breakdown etc.
Fast forward to 2050 at a wedding and the AI dj is playing, someone asks for a tune and the AI responds with 'yeh i'll play it later mate' :) or 'sorry, that tune is on my other hard-drive and i forgot to bring it' :) :)
an AI taking the requests, now that is something I could get behind! 😉
Yeah, i totally agree so far the new Auto cue Is very disappointing, I couldn’t believe were RB put its “Added Intelligent Cue Creation feature” for NWAs ‘Express Yourself’ - that song is fairly simple and rock solid for beat & layout and for me trying it this weekend it put cues in useless places. Come on Pioneer- it’s 2024
👍👍👍👍👍👍
The reason new DJs are going "backwards" is because thats where the fun was. I dont see how anyone can call "sitting in the backyard djing from a phone" fun
Oh, had some lovely evenings doing just that. Room for all ways of sharing music. I think it's more about respect for the culture, which is great to see.
Your video in the kitchen had much clearer image. With no horrible lights reflecting off your glasses. !
Yeah we'll sort those lights out at some point. But I'm not moving my Digital DJ Tips studio to my kitchen, I can tell you that! 🤣
I treat my controller like vinyl. I work out from the first beat naturally. I know how to use cue points but don't bother. I put a D&B mix together to show case some tunes to send a mate and he swears I've set cues. I usually mix slow and like to play the tune so this threw him off I think.
This is another wise piece of advice. Most DJs probably only use 20% of what their controllers can do. Pros know this and don't care. Newbies worry that they should be using the other 80%, all the time.
@@digitaldjtips very true so many buttons can look scary. Faders and equaliser is all I need. I do loop the first few beats sometimes and walk off and come back and pick up where left off. Top channel top bloke. DDJT 👑
Al as a tool is cool but al cant feel the room so much is connecting with the crowd and being able to change the moody most of this comes from feelings, dj sandoz
Agree completely.
What might make beat gridding more AI would be if it could listen for the claps.
What makes you think it isn't?
@@digitaldjtips occasionally the grid is on beat but the claps clash with the other track.
F*** it man 🤣 2020 i started programming an AI capable of exactly this and then i did not have time to continue it to finish a full product. I planned to finish it now as i have some more time now. But now those guys were faster 😂
They have big teams working on it too
Hes callrd Timmy Trumpet. D j
You say spinning platter disadvantages are 1) weight : I see this as an advantage. It makes the whole unit more stable, and feels sturdier.
2) size : they are no bigger than a top quality none motorised platter controller, and often smaller. 3) harder to use : you mean normal controllers are too easy to use and anyone can be a DJ.
Two CDJ's and a mixer are bigger.
For manipulation, ie scratching, a motorised platter feels much more like vinyl, and thus gives a much better feeling for a scratch DJ.
You say they are more complicated and more things to go wrong, but plenty of Technics SL1200 are still going strong 30+ years old, it is a proven technology which is very reliable.
I'm 54 years old, so not a 'young' DJ, I was carting several suitcases full of vinyl for 20+ years, come on mate get a grip, it's not exactly hard work.
Why so rude?
@@digitaldjtips Rude ?
Stop being such an over sensitive little thing, it was a perfectly decent comment. Rude would have been insulting you and using abusive language.
I'm just pointing out facts, based on years of DJ-ing myself.
Oh, I use a controller too, a DDJ SX2, so it's not as if I'm some vinyl purist. I mix every genre, including HipHop and I am pointing out the truth, spinning platters are great on controllers for the very reasons I state.
Is it so wrong to have a different view to your own ?
It's not exactly hard work carrying a few record bags is it. You only have to carry them in once and carry them home lol. Maybe a superstar DJ like you can get some donkey to do it for you ?
every DJ should at least know how to gain stage a system
Agreed
As AI gets in more and more domains, people are learning less and less things, threfore, the world naturaly will have a more and more low IQ, not to use other words...
And maybe, many many years in the future, they'll wonder how we used to mix two songs, just how we wonder how some things ware made back in time, like piramids for example. 🤣
I don't know... I hope I'm wrong! 😂
I hope you’re wrong too!
@@digitaldjtips the reality is that we are not immortal and will never know. All that remains is hope... 🥺
"pyramids"
@@winstonsmith9424 I'm sure you're right and I also understand your point. The problem is that there are people who speak English natively and have more mistakes than me, and I am not a native English speaker. Anyway, I think you took it too personally... It's just a point of view thrown far into the future! 😉
Essentially Phil, the ‘DJ’ is going to end up with absolutely nothing to think about… sounds hideous.