I like how harmonic the Dragon Wing was, legitimately 👀Like, I'd deal with the noise (loudness) if it sounded that good.~ I'm glad the fanfan at least did decently for a good joke fan. Little bugger made me happy.
I'd love to see what the dragonwing could do if it was produced with the process - and tiny gap between fan blades and side wall - as the A12x25. As it stands, I don't think it's sufficiently faster for the increased noise level. It sure comes close to beating the A12x25 than anything else, though.
Or even better, have not only the factory-molded A12X25 as a goal poast, but also a *PLA-printed* A12X25 version (maybe even a resin-printed version as well). That way you could compare how *any* fan would do if it was resin-printed (assuming that the layer lines cause similar losses among all fans).
@@sirmonkey1985 just like that one from a year ago or so that was never confirmed if it was Thomas's design or not. I can't recall the brand that used it though. Almost want to sat thermaltake.
@@sirmonkey1985 At this point where the fan is shown on video pretty clearly, it would be easy for a good engineer to just screendump and reverse engineer the dimensions of the fan in cad.
Wow, is this the first time the A12 got beaten? I know it's not really a fair fight since Noctua also optimizes for noise, but that's still impressive.
The tesla Turbine is missing allot of its key components. like the external shroud that directs the air over the ''blades'' the entire thing is supposed to be enclosed with a valve on one end and it blasting air out of the other.
I think you all are missing one important thing here, IT'S NOT A FAN, it's designed to be pushed by pressure to generate movement, not to be rotated to move air.
@@YOEL_44 go read the patent... and whats its current only commercial application? as a pump. i guess the rotary engine aka wankel is designed to be pushed by pressure too? at which end? the rotor? or the shaft? felix originally designed it as, guess what? a pump... yknow, ALL engines are just glorified air compressors? and then theres the whole issue about pressure, velocity, and bernoullis... "new principle of operation". its not a pressure aka reaction turbine. its not an impulse turbine. its a fluid friction turbine. pressure doesnt push anything. it simply tries to reach equilibrium.
Tom’s Dragon Wing fan is insane! Well done, mate!! We need to have a special fan episode where we take all the best parts of of the featured fans over the years, and combine them into an ultimate fankenfan! Imagine the Dragon Wing in a Cheater shroud for instance!
Well if it was made of the special material it might still be noisy, but since Noctua said they made the material (something crystalline they said) not to warp under temperatures or age, then the fan get closer to the frame have even more performance and probably even noisier. But you could also run the fan slower or not as often because of how performant it is.
@@pr0xZen His recordings though are not in a proper sound chamber, so they are higher than the true value. So it's only comparable to other fans on the list in that room. Your own personal room and setup will differ. The fan db in a proper sound chamber is only 22.5 db. That's also at full speed, and my fans never reach full speed, since it's not needed. So I never really hear the ten fans, even when gaming for hours. The pump makes more noise.
@@ScytheNoire If you never run fana at 100%, then comparing fans by manufacturer or lab rating performance metrics is pointless, and seriously misleading at best. At that point, the results and metrics of these "fsn showdown" tests are arguably more representative of deployment in relateable usecase than any of the 1st or typical independ lab party figures.
I'm now a big fan of the small fanfan because the creator was able to think outside the box and put the fanfan inside the box. A truely creative way to reinvent the wheel while keeping the wheel exactly the same as before it was reinvented.
I bet everyone thought of it already, but I'm the only one who did it. But I bet some serious fan showdowners might have done it and didn't want to submit it because they wanna make "good fans" that are "actually productive". It also seems really low effort (and it kinda was). Just take the fan, scale it down to fit in the fan, scale up the blades to touch the walls, add the hub template, hollow it out, done. The better thing would have been for me to do some cylindrical scaling to make the fans stretch to accommodate the larger hub, but even noctua's mini fans have about the same blade proportions as their big fans.
I like silent and quiet computers when they're in the same room that I'm in. Having some turbine whine clearly audible unless I'm ramping speakers and headphones up to ear-damaging levels is annoying. That said, if it was something in a rack in its own shed or basement or something, it can go right ahead and scream.
I would really love a sound based series where the dba and potentially a subjective "how nice to listen to" score are the focus. Could make use of the resin printer more and then rank all the fans based on fpm ratio Maybe normalizing with power or so the rpm of each fan is the same?
Honestly the hard angle on the Dragon Wing has a smooth but more steep curve to it than the original Noctua fan blades. But Noctua's new fan blades yet to be released on their updated 140mm design, also, has a steeper curve; it's more abrupt/jagged of a curve though.
I'm sorry excuse me... A fan just DESTROYED the Noctua A12X25 and every other fan on the chart and you just like... End the video on that bombshell? Wow. Back to the studio. 😂
I've been a long time fan of the fan showdown. The thing with the a12x25 is its supposed to work in a lot of different configurations. Case fan, heatsink fan, radiator fan. It always does good. Is it the best for anything? not so much but its a great compromise between all kinds of fans. So just pure airflow is not a great way to compare fans. We need to take into account airspeed, CFM, static pressure, lifetime and efficiency.
Not sure the cost of that dissolvable support filament, but there is a cheap and easy way to get easily removable supports for prints: Use a different filament type. If you are printing in PLA, use PETG supports, and if in PETG, use PLA supports. It makes them very easy to remove, and PLA and PETG are usually materials you already have around.
@@jttech44 Depending on where you live, PVA filament can cost a far chunk. Right now just looking at general lists, it costs about the same as a full 1kg spool of PLA for a 250g-500g spool of PVA. An while I don't expect people will use it exactly 1:1, that is still not 'cheap' in a price difference for something that only functions as a support material.
@@jttech44 Which is what the majority of people who 3D print as a hobby will mostly buy. Which is why PVA filament is considered expensive, as really the price per kg even for more expensive PLA is better than you can for PVA.
@@DuribunWolf Tbh, most people who are 3D printing don't have dual extruders so, PVA filament isn't something they'd buy. Once you've bought into dual extruder printing, you've figured out that cheap filament prints like crap, and nicer PLA+ makes alot of sense in terms of actual material needed and wasted material.At which point PVA isn't really cost prohibitive.
Noctua has a new fan on the way, and during their interview with GN about it and the R&D process that took a few years, they stated that their fan isn't optimized for pushing air through a radiator or for raw CFM. They strive for a sort of hybrid between the two styles. They want their fan to work really good as a case fan, and equally as good as an AIO fan. That being said, BY DESIGN, they are beatable with a more specialized design. It SHOULD be beaten in these tests. However, it SHOULD NOT be beaten across both open air and resistant (through radiator) CFM with a single design. I'd love to see how the Dragon Wing would fair against it for open CFM. It would be really cool to see Noctua beaten at their own thing
The dragon wing outperforming the A12x25, even within it's form factor is a big thing even if it is louder. I'm curious, would a softer material like PETg decrease noise?
You'd probably want to go even stiffer actually. Some of the noise is from the blade tips vibrating, and a stiffer material would "flap" less. Also, softer materials will likely expand more under the centripetal force of high-RPM tests, meaning you have to design with less efficient larger gaps around the edges.
Hey! I watched all of the seasons. It would be rather nice to add a noise normalize section in the chart, since many many of want our pc's to perform, but quiet! I think somewhere between 38-45 dba should be fine, I'll let you be the decider on that. I know this is a lot of work, if you should retest a lot of designs, but hey! Free video. Thanks for your hard work!
Can we see a fan speed vs sheer airflow graph for the A12x25 fan versus the Dragon Wing? It'd be interesting to see its possible use in variable fan speed situations!
*@Major Hardware* 7:44 I'm SO GLAD that you added that acrylic sheet to mount the fans on, otherwise this test would have looked like garbage, but now it's actually great :D
Interesting Tom achieved higher performance by making noisier fan. I'd expect less energy spent making noise = more energy spent moving air. But good job either way, he beat Noctua without making bits that stick out.
The Dragon wing is kind of cool but sadly you won't know that once it's spinning. Also there are obviously more dimensions to fan design than cfm/rpm Even noise isn't just noise as there are types of noise that are perceived more quietly. A low frequency hum can be the same dB as a high-mid squeal but the hum will sound quieter. And if both are at low volume to begin with, the difference will be even greater. So it's a doubly good idea to try and get your fan to emit only low frequencies.
For a solution that is cheaper than PVA, when the application allows. When printing with PLA use PETG for support material & vice versa. The 2 materials will not bond to eachother at all, so the supports just fall away.
hey man, are you red/green colorblind? that fan is purple , not blue... at least it appears that way on the video.... sorry, not trying to be an asshole, im just curious
I wonder about the tesla turbine, I bet you there's at least something you could do to make something like that move air, see if you're going off of the original design it's designed to take from the center out, what if you reversed that idea, you're using it in reverse so see if there's a way to take that idea and do just that.
For it to work the intake ports would need to draw air in meaning each disc would need a scoop shaped like the blade of a cheese grater once the air is drawn in the disks would accelerate the air outward towards the edge of the disc then get directed by the fins along the rim of the disk. How powerful it would be is anyone's guess. I would expect it to have a fairly high static pressure though which is good for forcing air through cooling fins. But the question is how much air would be moved CFM could be very low just that the efficiency could be quite high
yeah, throw it in a duct/housing so the air that enters can only enter, and air exiting can only exit... as it is, wheres the air being flung OUT to? straight back at the intake... sort of. mmmm, rotor induced vortex... umm, as for the turbine itself? read the patent. just like parsons mentioned his turbine will operate "in reverse", as a compressor... so did tesla.
with how isolated my headset is and how noisy my AC is, I wouldn't even mind a blower cooler in my case just to cool everything/ so performance over noise for me is always a thing. if the price is right ofcourse(which is why my PC is full of arctic p12 fans)
I'd really like to see the fans set to a normalized 40db for the airflow test. Testing airflow at max rpm doesn't tell us much, since most people would be irritated by a nearly 60db fan.
I don't understand this video. Beating the A12x25 in airflow has never been a difficult challenge. Literally any super loud airflow optimized fan will beat the A12x25, hell, there are 80mm fans that will destroy the A12x25 at half speed. What makes the A12x25 special, is that it's great at everything. An airflow optimized fan will beat it at airflow and a static pressure optimized fan will beat it at static pressure, but if you try generating static pressure in the airflow fan and it won't be long before Bob is no longer you uncle.
IDK, it looks like a static pressure test in the video through a radiator. Considering the A12x25 is only 0.14 amps, be hard to beat Noctua on both. Frame design also has a significant factor on noise, ie. how the high pressure waves of the exhaust impacts the motor arms.
i would be verry interested in seeing how the air moves trough a radiator/aircooler. That way you can see if it has some actual air pressure or takes the fastest way out and slows down. And you should scale down the Dragon Wing till it hits the same noise levels and then compare. Then you can see if it actually is better on simmilar noise levels and add the pressure test.
A piece of paper really should have been put over the front of the centripetal laminar pump to keep what's probably 30% of its flow from returning to source....
could you sometime do a fan showdown episode that is just profecional fans? like test the A12x25 against hte bequiet fans and others? maybe even print them in PLA as well to test how the 3D printing process effects the preformance of each pro design
I wonder with the tesla turbine if you offset each one of the sections a few degrees if that would make a difference? Like rotating each one of the pieces by about 5-10% each, but plate by plate, first plate at Top dead center then the second plate rotated 5-10 degrees and so on? I could be talking out my but, though curiosity has me.
It's an interesting thought! My intuition is that, without any other changes to the design, an offset like that would end up decreasing air flow to the inner plates, due to the decreased effective area of the opening, and thus decrease total throughput. But I'm no aerospace engineer, just some rando who occasionally likes swearing at mechanical things until they work, so I have no idea how that would effect turbulence and air pressure. Would be an interesting thing to try! Especially if you had the appropriate housing and motor to use a Tesla turbine as a pump.
Sleeper/conversion cars are the most high roller cars There's this one guy who sells ender 3 core xy conversion kits. That's probably the most baller 3d printer possible. "Yeah I have an ender 3. Yeah it does a 7 minute benchy."
Would be awesome to see the new first place in an extra high quality resin print...
printing in resin increases numbers by 2.1% you can easily math what the results will be ua-cam.com/video/603hywgt92w/v-deo.html
Definitely
Indeed Resin please! :) make a 30mm deep version and then wow!
Exactly! We need resin prints
High quality resin print, and benchmarked against a resin A12x25
I like how harmonic the Dragon Wing was, legitimately 👀Like, I'd deal with the noise (loudness) if it sounded that good.~
I'm glad the fanfan at least did decently for a good joke fan. Little bugger made me happy.
I agree I actually thought despite how loud it was it was actually a nice sounding fan.
excellent work tom
I'd love to see what the dragonwing could do if it was produced with the process - and tiny gap between fan blades and side wall - as the A12x25. As it stands, I don't think it's sufficiently faster for the increased noise level. It sure comes close to beating the A12x25 than anything else, though.
Bet Tom is going to get an offer just like Thomas did. What is it with guys named Tom and this challenge? :P
Tesla turbine needs a redesign.
So....who's calling Tom to license his fan design?
MSI should get on that, their mascot is a freakin Dragon
@@Teajam TRUE!
msi hopefully
@@Teajam valid and true
Skip the middle man, make a company and call it "Tom's Fans" I'd buy.
Seeing if the Dragon Wing can be improved just by printing it in SLA would be cool.
printing in resin increases numbers by 2.1% you can easily math what the results will be ua-cam.com/video/603hywgt92w/v-deo.html
Or even better, have not only the factory-molded A12X25 as a goal poast, but also a *PLA-printed* A12X25 version (maybe even a resin-printed version as well). That way you could compare how *any* fan would do if it was resin-printed (assuming that the layer lines cause similar losses among all fans).
Also the dBA would probably go down if it had bumps like the production quality ones.
if the guy who made the dragon wing sees this comment... pls, share the stls
Yeah the dragon wing looks awesome but could definitely see a company steal it.
@@sirmonkey1985 just like that one from a year ago or so that was never confirmed if it was Thomas's design or not. I can't recall the brand that used it though. Almost want to sat thermaltake.
@@EvilCerealBoX It was RaidMax, though ThermalTake is occasionally called ThermalSteal for a reason, just not this time.
@@sirmonkey1985 At this point where the fan is shown on video pretty clearly, it would be easy for a good engineer to just screendump and reverse engineer the dimensions of the fan in cad.
On Thingiverse as "smog"
The fanfan is such a riot. I haven't laughed that hard over a fan ever.
The fanfan has always been great. *ah, this is a different fanfan. This one is nifty for different reasons.
ty bb
So you are a fanfanfan?
I'm gonna see myself out
Lol the fact that it actually worked quite well is even funnier
And it _did_ move air, unlike some other designs we've seen.
Wow, is this the first time the A12 got beaten? I know it's not really a fair fight since Noctua also optimizes for noise, but that's still impressive.
To be fair, it's Noctua's 140mm design
I was interested to see how the fans would rank if we were to value FPM and dBA equally instead of only noting dBA and ranking by pure FPM. I realized then that decibels are logarithmic, so I had to convert those values to linear before we could get a proper weighting. Also, the columns won't line up here because we can't use a monospace font in comments. But you can paste it into a text editor if you want that. Anyway, here are those rankings!
| Fan | FPM | dBA | dBA linear | FPM/dBA linear |
| ---------------- | --- | ---- | ---------- | -------------- |
| Multi Stage | 268 | 40 | 101.59 | 2.64 |
| Turbo Pump | 405 | 43.6 | 153.99 | 2.63 |
| A12x25 | 495 | 46 | 203.19 | 2.44 |
| Angel | 485 | 47.3 | 236.11 | 2.05 |
| 92120 | 464 | 47.5 | 241.63 | 1.92 |
| Simple 13 | 479 | 48.1 | 258.97 | 1.85 |
| Gear Ratio | 482 | 48.3 | 265.03 | 1.82 |
| Variable | 430 | 47.4 | 238.86 | 1.80 |
| Hollowman | 435 | 48.5 | 271.22 | 1.60 |
| Radish | 459 | 49.5 | 304.44 | 1.51 |
| Warhead | 454 | 49.5 | 304.44 | 1.49 |
| Tangent | 459 | 49.6 | 307.97 | 1.49 |
| 17 Blade | 446 | 50 | 322.54 | 1.38 |
| Circumventor | 397 | 49 | 287.35 | 1.38 |
| Dragon Wing | 528 | 52 | 406.37 | 1.30 |
| Cheater | 477 | 51.5 | 383.57 | 1.24 |
| Waterfall | 423 | 50.9 | 357.88 | 1.18 |
| Double J | 397 | 50.4 | 337.79 | 1.18 |
| SkyScoop | 423 | 51 | 362.04 | 1.17 |
| Triskelion | 353 | 50.3 | 333.91 | 1.06 |
| Involute | 327 | 51 | 362.04 | 0.90 |
| Toroidal | 286 | 50 | 322.54 | 0.89 |
| XL | 286 | 50 | 322.54 | 0.89 |
| Uruguayan | 348 | 52 | 406.37 | 0.86 |
| 7 Blade Toroidal | 263 | 50 | 322.54 | 0.82 |
| 993 | 435 | 54.5 | 542.45 | 0.80 |
| Inverted Sharrow | 337 | 53.6 | 488.88 | 0.69 |
| Mobius REV | 273 | 52.6 | 435.54 | 0.63 |
| Thoroid | 255 | 52.8 | 445.72 | 0.57 |
| A12x25 fanfan | 263 | 54.5 | 542.45 | 0.48 |
| Tesla Turbine | 0 | 48 | 256.00 | 0.00 |
Values sourced from 9:34
That's some awesome work dude
Some crazy math dude it’s awesome, surprising what ranks above all
Hell yeah! Cool idea and baller execution to show the results instead of just wishing someone did it. Good job and thank you.
Best comment so far on the whole channel 👍 👍 👍
the song that plays with the slowmo footage of the fans never gets old. what a banger
I headbang Every. Single. Time.
Slowmo?
Are we watching the same video?
@YOEL_44 Slowmo at 7:53
@@TranceFur That is not slow motion, that is just regular speed.
Have you guys never seen a fan spinning?
@@YOEL_44He's so fast it's slowmo for him
Tom is a real one. You can’t expect to gain performance without trading off something else (such as noise) that man has the heart of a true engineer
LETS GOOO MY FAV SHOW
The tesla Turbine is missing allot of its key components. like the external shroud that directs the air over the ''blades'' the entire thing is supposed to be enclosed with a valve on one end and it blasting air out of the other.
Egor? Is that you?
Can we get another take with the missing components?
I would also like to see this fan attached to his variable voltage supply, crank those RPMs up to see if there is indeed increased efficiency.
I think you all are missing one important thing here, IT'S NOT A FAN, it's designed to be pushed by pressure to generate movement, not to be rotated to move air.
Not to mention the rpm needed to make it function even a little bit. I don't think the A12-X25 motor can hit 10k rpm.
@@YOEL_44 go read the patent...
and whats its current only commercial application?
as a pump.
i guess the rotary engine aka wankel is designed to be pushed by pressure too?
at which end? the rotor? or the shaft? felix originally designed it as, guess what? a pump...
yknow, ALL engines are just glorified air compressors?
and then theres the whole issue about pressure, velocity, and bernoullis...
"new principle of operation".
its not a pressure aka reaction turbine. its not an impulse turbine. its a fluid friction turbine.
pressure doesnt push anything. it simply tries to reach equilibrium.
Tom’s Dragon Wing fan is insane! Well done, mate!!
We need to have a special fan episode where we take all the best parts of of the featured fans over the years, and combine them into an ultimate fankenfan! Imagine the Dragon Wing in a Cheater shroud for instance!
6db louder though is pretty significant, but it might regain some of that if it was actually made out of Noctua's special material.
thats true! or mabye in resin? :))))
Well if it was made of the special material it might still be noisy, but since Noctua said they made the material (something crystalline they said) not to warp under temperatures or age, then the fan get closer to the frame have even more performance and probably even noisier. But you could also run the fan slower or not as often because of how performant it is.
The main issue with most of those printed designs is the turbulence generated by the surface not being smooth.
@@BrunodeSouzaLino resin printing or using isopropyl alch to smooth PLA.
The Noctua standard impeller would regain the CFM and more just by running it at slightly higher speed.
For me, the quietness of Noctua fans is a huge factor in why I use them, not just their performance and reliability.
and the warranty is very, very good if you ever need it.
Certainly - but 40+(++) dba isn't exactly "quiet" for higher end fans.
@@pr0xZen His recordings though are not in a proper sound chamber, so they are higher than the true value. So it's only comparable to other fans on the list in that room. Your own personal room and setup will differ. The fan db in a proper sound chamber is only 22.5 db.
That's also at full speed, and my fans never reach full speed, since it's not needed. So I never really hear the ten fans, even when gaming for hours. The pump makes more noise.
@@ScytheNoire If you never run fana at 100%, then comparing fans by manufacturer or lab rating performance metrics is pointless, and seriously misleading at best. At that point, the results and metrics of these "fsn showdown" tests are arguably more representative of deployment in relateable usecase than any of the 1st or typical independ lab party figures.
I'm now a big fan of the small fanfan because the creator was able to think outside the box and put the fanfan inside the box. A truely creative way to reinvent the wheel while keeping the wheel exactly the same as before it was reinvented.
I bet everyone thought of it already, but I'm the only one who did it.
But I bet some serious fan showdowners might have done it and didn't want to submit it because they wanna make "good fans" that are "actually productive".
It also seems really low effort (and it kinda was). Just take the fan, scale it down to fit in the fan, scale up the blades to touch the walls, add the hub template, hollow it out, done.
The better thing would have been for me to do some cylindrical scaling to make the fans stretch to accommodate the larger hub, but even noctua's mini fans have about the same blade proportions as their big fans.
Could you 3D print the Noctua fan case with clear plastic? It would be cool to see the fans spinning from the side during the smoke tests.
I will take increased performance over reduced noise most of the time. That dragon wing looks great.
Noise Performance is most important to me.
@@WeBeGood06but it is dragons wing!
When I'm gaming or listening to music I can't even hear my PC when it's at full throttle. I'll take increased performance every time.
shoot any day.
I like silent and quiet computers when they're in the same room that I'm in. Having some turbine whine clearly audible unless I'm ramping speakers and headphones up to ear-damaging levels is annoying.
That said, if it was something in a rack in its own shed or basement or something, it can go right ahead and scream.
Now this is a proper fan showdown episode. In hub designs that attempt competition for the original plus a wild card for the lols.
would be interesting to see this in a noise normalized comparison with the a12x25, i wonder if it could still win.
serious pc guys dont care about noise! they want it runnin cool.
@@Kdog307 thats the dumbest statement anyone has ever made.
With the fan fan initially it was "neat, someone's done a full fan and frame...oh...ooooooh"
Nonononono
Wait wait wait wait wait
Tom is like "oh, you want something better, here it is; it took me like 15 minutes to design"
I would really love a sound based series where the dba and potentially a subjective "how nice to listen to" score are the focus. Could make use of the resin printer more and then rank all the fans based on fpm ratio
Maybe normalizing with power or so the rpm of each fan is the same?
Honestly the hard angle on the Dragon Wing has a smooth but more steep curve to it than the original Noctua fan blades. But Noctua's new fan blades yet to be released on their updated 140mm design, also, has a steeper curve; it's more abrupt/jagged of a curve though.
I'm sorry excuse me... A fan just DESTROYED the Noctua A12X25 and every other fan on the chart and you just like... End the video on that bombshell? Wow. Back to the studio. 😂
Tom should get a deal with a fan company for their design. That's awesome!
I've been a long time fan of the fan showdown. The thing with the a12x25 is its supposed to work in a lot of different configurations. Case fan, heatsink fan, radiator fan. It always does good. Is it the best for anything? not so much but its a great compromise between all kinds of fans. So just pure airflow is not a great way to compare fans. We need to take into account airspeed, CFM, static pressure, lifetime and efficiency.
The Dragon wing is impressive! Nice Job!
And it's a good-looking fan, too. I'd buy it.
right, it look good in a msi build
I love the Dragon Wing's sound! It has a nice harmony to it. 52 dB isn't terrible either.
Not sure the cost of that dissolvable support filament, but there is a cheap and easy way to get easily removable supports for prints: Use a different filament type.
If you are printing in PLA, use PETG supports, and if in PETG, use PLA supports. It makes them very easy to remove, and PLA and PETG are usually materials you already have around.
PVA filament is very very cheap.
@@jttech44 Depending on where you live, PVA filament can cost a far chunk. Right now just looking at general lists, it costs about the same as a full 1kg spool of PLA for a 250g-500g spool of PVA. An while I don't expect people will use it exactly 1:1, that is still not 'cheap' in a price difference for something that only functions as a support material.
@@DuribunWolf sure, if you use the cheapest possible PLA, which is a pain to print with.
@@jttech44 Which is what the majority of people who 3D print as a hobby will mostly buy. Which is why PVA filament is considered expensive, as really the price per kg even for more expensive PLA is better than you can for PVA.
@@DuribunWolf Tbh, most people who are 3D printing don't have dual extruders so, PVA filament isn't something they'd buy. Once you've bought into dual extruder printing, you've figured out that cheap filament prints like crap, and nicer PLA+ makes alot of sense in terms of actual material needed and wasted material.At which point PVA isn't really cost prohibitive.
Noctua has a new fan on the way, and during their interview with GN about it and the R&D process that took a few years, they stated that their fan isn't optimized for pushing air through a radiator or for raw CFM. They strive for a sort of hybrid between the two styles. They want their fan to work really good as a case fan, and equally as good as an AIO fan.
That being said, BY DESIGN, they are beatable with a more specialized design. It SHOULD be beaten in these tests. However, it SHOULD NOT be beaten across both open air and resistant (through radiator) CFM with a single design.
I'd love to see how the Dragon Wing would fair against it for open CFM. It would be really cool to see Noctua beaten at their own thing
Nice score Tom! (69.696 CFM)
I was hoping someone mentioned that!
Nice.
Yo I'm a fan of fans fans
msi should use the dragon wing in their pc cases! nice.
i bet that dragon wing design could be further improved, which might help with sound. I'd replace my noctua fans with it in a heartbeat as-is though!
it would look good in an msi build
@@Kdog307 That's a really good point. MSI could easily license this and slap it on their GPUs and sell some case fans.
The dragon wing outperforming the A12x25, even within it's form factor is a big thing even if it is louder. I'm curious, would a softer material like PETg decrease noise?
You'd probably want to go even stiffer actually. Some of the noise is from the blade tips vibrating, and a stiffer material would "flap" less. Also, softer materials will likely expand more under the centripetal force of high-RPM tests, meaning you have to design with less efficient larger gaps around the edges.
we got ourselves a new best, and worst in the same episode! Neat!
Hey! I watched all of the seasons. It would be rather nice to add a noise normalize section in the chart, since many many of want our pc's to perform, but quiet! I think somewhere between 38-45 dba should be fine, I'll let you be the decider on that. I know this is a lot of work, if you should retest a lot of designs, but hey! Free video.
Thanks for your hard work!
@1:00 The DragonWing in purple looks cooler...
Impressive, Tom 🙂
Does the Tesla turbine just need a cover around the outside so that air does not go back out the front?
Can we see a fan speed vs sheer airflow graph for the A12x25 fan versus the Dragon Wing? It'd be interesting to see its possible use in variable fan speed situations!
*@Major Hardware*
7:44 I'm SO GLAD that you added that acrylic sheet to mount the fans on, otherwise this test would have looked like garbage, but now it's actually great :D
Interesting Tom achieved higher performance by making noisier fan. I'd expect less energy spent making noise = more energy spent moving air. But good job either way, he beat Noctua without making bits that stick out.
The Dragon wing is kind of cool but sadly you won't know that once it's spinning.
Also there are obviously more dimensions to fan design than cfm/rpm
Even noise isn't just noise as there are types of noise that are perceived more quietly. A low frequency hum can be the same dB as a high-mid squeal but the hum will sound quieter. And if both are at low volume to begin with, the difference will be even greater.
So it's a doubly good idea to try and get your fan to emit only low frequencies.
For a solution that is cheaper than PVA, when the application allows. When printing with PLA use PETG for support material & vice versa. The 2 materials will not bond to eachother at all, so the supports just fall away.
The fans keep getting better, maybe next season we can try some noise normalized testing?🤔
Why aren't you using the resin printer for the fans? Or some vapor smoothed ABS. I guess the overall roughness degrades performance quuite a bit.
My company bid on building Kenton's new Middle School/High School today. Weird coincidence!
hey man, are you red/green colorblind? that fan is purple , not blue... at least it appears that way on the video.... sorry, not trying to be an asshole, im just curious
I wonder about the tesla turbine, I bet you there's at least something you could do to make something like that move air, see if you're going off of the original design it's designed to take from the center out, what if you reversed that idea, you're using it in reverse so see if there's a way to take that idea and do just that.
For it to work the intake ports would need to draw air in meaning each disc would need a scoop shaped like the blade of a cheese grater once the air is drawn in the disks would accelerate the air outward towards the edge of the disc then get directed by the fins along the rim of the disk. How powerful it would be is anyone's guess. I would expect it to have a fairly high static pressure though which is good for forcing air through cooling fins.
But the question is how much air would be moved CFM could be very low just that the efficiency could be quite high
yeah, throw it in a duct/housing so the air that enters can only enter, and air exiting can only exit... as it is, wheres the air being flung OUT to? straight back at the intake... sort of.
mmmm, rotor induced vortex...
umm, as for the turbine itself? read the patent. just like parsons mentioned his turbine will operate "in reverse", as a compressor... so did tesla.
Tom just walked in and flopped his magnum dong on the table.
Bravo, my dude. Great design.
if this video doesn't start "you dawg, I heard you like fans..." I'll be disappointed.
Tom is the hero we need, not the one we deserve.
Keep the fan showdown within the restraints of being used in an actual PC!
Yo dawg, I heard you like fans.
So we put a fan in your fan, so you can blow while blowing (air...).
That printer is no joke!
with how isolated my headset is and how noisy my AC is, I wouldn't even mind a blower cooler in my case just to cool everything/ so performance over noise for me is always a thing. if the price is right ofcourse(which is why my PC is full of arctic p12 fans)
Totally shuold've printed that fanfan in noctua colors. Maybe swapped?
Fan in a fan.
„Sometimes my genius,… it’s almost frightening“ - Jeremy Clarkson
I'd definitely get the dragon wing
The fanfan is absolutely stupid and i love it
Its iconic Fan showdown material, lol
While I enjoy the creative and over the top big designs, I find the ones that stick within stock fan dimensions much more interesting.
I hope someone does an owl wing for those working with long hours but still produces enough flow to cool even on a hot day
The fact that the Dragon wing's CFM is 69 repeated is just the best.
Dude the video ended too abruptly! We finally have a new King and without the funnel and shit
Wait, that filament is PURPLE not blue RIGHT?!?
1:48 "Yo dawg, I heard you like fans, so I put a fan in your fan so you can fan while you fan!"
I'd get the dragon wing. Time to watch the last 9 minutes of the video...
@8:45 it had no way to draw in the air other then its own created vacuumed pressure, which was low...
Curious how much louder the dragon wing would be pushing the same amount of air. if it's not much louder at a lower rpm then it may be worth it.
real pc guys dont care about noise.
@@Kdog307 YAWN! 🙄
dragonwing, already for the name, and it being just as good or better anyway.
I find this way more interesting than I should.
@8:55 the tesla turbine was never meant to be used drawing air like that from its side...
The dragon wing makes an interesting chord. Sounds like a car horn. which i think is like a major 3rd?
69.696 ... lets just assume the 4th one is a 9 so we got triple 69s ... nice nice nice
I'd really like to see the fans set to a normalized 40db for the airflow test. Testing airflow at max rpm doesn't tell us much, since most people would be irritated by a nearly 60db fan.
I don't understand this video. Beating the A12x25 in airflow has never been a difficult challenge. Literally any super loud airflow optimized fan will beat the A12x25, hell, there are 80mm fans that will destroy the A12x25 at half speed. What makes the A12x25 special, is that it's great at everything. An airflow optimized fan will beat it at airflow and a static pressure optimized fan will beat it at static pressure, but if you try generating static pressure in the airflow fan and it won't be long before Bob is no longer you uncle.
IDK, it looks like a static pressure test in the video through a radiator. Considering the A12x25 is only 0.14 amps, be hard to beat Noctua on both. Frame design also has a significant factor on noise, ie. how the high pressure waves of the exhaust impacts the motor arms.
i would be verry interested in seeing how the air moves trough a radiator/aircooler. That way you can see if it has some actual air pressure or takes the fastest way out and slows down.
And you should scale down the Dragon Wing till it hits the same noise levels and then compare. Then you can see if it actually is better on simmilar noise levels and add the pressure test.
as a noob to 3d modeling, i tried fusion 360, as it was recomended. IT WAS GARBO. tried blender, and it is MILES ahead of fusion 360.
👏
Fusion 3d is hard core cad and it's intended to put parts together to design machines.
Not a great 3D modeler
Ahaha I had the same idea for the fanfan, but I was going to call it OnlyFans XD
I'm glad somebody finally did it!
I'm sad I didn't think of OnlyFans
Sorry that's blue? It looks like a dark royal purple on my screen.
Blue? Welcome to the protanopia club I guess.
A piece of paper really should have been put over the front of the centripetal laminar pump to keep what's probably 30% of its flow from returning to source....
Technically correct
30% of zero airflow is zero
so the a12x25 was dethroned? well not in noise but still thats amazing
5:22 No, drugs are bad, mkay?
It's dragged.
that's a very nice cfm from the dragon wing
fan showdown the see osprey v-22 🚁🦅
could you sometime do a fan showdown episode that is just profecional fans? like test the A12x25 against hte bequiet fans and others? maybe even print them in PLA as well to test how the 3D printing process effects the preformance of each pro design
Having other frames of reference on the board would be nice to have, I'm sure a few designs are already better than some commercial brands
I think you'd have to use the Tesla turbine like a Dyson vacuum
I wonder with the tesla turbine if you offset each one of the sections a few degrees if that would make a difference? Like rotating each one of the pieces by about 5-10% each, but plate by plate, first plate at Top dead center then the second plate rotated 5-10 degrees and so on? I could be talking out my but, though curiosity has me.
It's an interesting thought! My intuition is that, without any other changes to the design, an offset like that would end up decreasing air flow to the inner plates, due to the decreased effective area of the opening, and thus decrease total throughput. But I'm no aerospace engineer, just some rando who occasionally likes swearing at mechanical things until they work, so I have no idea how that would effect turbulence and air pressure. Would be an interesting thing to try! Especially if you had the appropriate housing and motor to use a Tesla turbine as a pump.
Fanception!
I'd buy the dragonwing fan.
Yo Dawg I heard you like fans
Nice work with 2 color filament!
this dude has essentially made a game show
The fan-in-fan design is the PC tech-equivalent of Chrome Spinners on car wheels.
Sleeper/conversion cars are the most high roller cars
There's this one guy who sells ender 3 core xy conversion kits. That's probably the most baller 3d printer possible.
"Yeah I have an ender 3. Yeah it does a 7 minute benchy."