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I have used it and I liked it, you should not be so smug and disrespectful. I always see such hive mind comments like this, popular videos told people not to like Betterhelp or Established Titles, so that's all I ever see criticized. The issue of not real doctors seems to be based on one guy, I'll give you even if it is a handful, this is a nationwide service, and even in my state there are stories every now and then of somebody operating with a faked license. This isn't unique to betterhelp. And the collecting data thing is silly, all that info is already on google or your social media, people act like it is going through the session with the therapist and now you are getting ads based on what you talked about. I just hate that this is the best thing trying to solve the problem of friction in the therapy experience. I didn't lose hours a week driving around, and the network on there and ease of switching therapist is better than what you would find locally. But things like dumb video game ads that waste your time and collect your data, other useless junk never gets critiqued, mostly because they are not as popular, and this sick human thing to tear down more important things because there is a risk of it causing more harm. But countless people need and use this service. You look it up, there is a reason why major channels are happy to work with them after those few incidents years ago. @@bosco4533
Nice video! I'm from Crete and live less than a mile away from Knossos. I always thought that the "peaceful Minoans" myth was an exageration because they were being compared to the Myceneans. If anyone of you wants to come visit Crete for its ancient past or its wanderful landscape you are always welcome! 😁
I tend to believe that the myth persists more as evidence of wishful thinking by those who hold to it despite the fact that, as Dan Davis says, no other society was peaceful in that way and if the Minoans had been that peaceful they would not have dominated trade the way they did, or even lasted.
Part of bushido is to live each day at the fullest and appreciate the smaller things in life as one dont know what the next days will bring,and in the biggest struggles,one finds peace also.
@@MrPh30bushido didn't exist in the Sengoku Jidai when most of those poems were written Bushido are modern ideals anachronistically applied to the Samurai of previous periods.
The decoration on samurai armor is unpractical, therefore, they did not use armor in warfare. It is just ritual! And because it is dumb to go to war without armor, they did not go to war. The swords, spears, axes, clubs, naginatas, bows and guns, even bombs were all ritual!
It seems so super obvious to me that the reason the Minoans were able to have such a rich and luxurious culture was a result of them having military dominance over their immediate surroundings, perhaps even the wider region
Indeed.i was born in southern Peloponeese and the amount of Minoan goods exhibited in the local museum's is staggering.found in Peloponeese,even in remote and mountain's regions.so trade and war came hand in hand
wouldn't say miilitary dominance but they were great seafarers which means traders / pirate raiders. and they had several copper mines which was one of the most valuable resources back then and they had incredible conditions for agriculture in Crete as well and deep forests. and their freaking island is like one of the premium locations of the mediterranean because basically everything is protected by the coast, so it was extremely difficult to get ON the island in one piece especially since navigating those early ships was really hard and not precise. I guess the Myceneans officially came in peace but then started a brutal ambush like they did in Troy regarding the myth.
@@BawonSamdi1 according to modern historians it happened after the volcanic explosion of Thera,modern Santorini.althowh the Minoans rebuiilded their state again the new seafarers from Pelloponeese and the rest of northern Greece of that time set foot little by little in the island.according to Illiad by the time of the Trojan war ,almost all of the Greek tribes concixested peacefully in Crete.the great majority were the Minoans Greeks, but all the others were there ,possibly as traders,mercenaries sailors ,laborers etc
@@BawonSamdi1 you seem quite confident for such a huge amount of speculation. Question: how can there be "deep forests" on a relatively small island like Crete? lol
@@Casmaniac it is true, seriously :D there are archeological records which are abit more valid than someone writing down fairytales and myths, there are also 3 mountains which are higher than 2000m which is also special for such a relatively small island. but in comparison to most mediterranean islands, Crete is a HUGE island.
To say that the Minoans didn't conduct war because there were no scenes of war in their castles is like saying the US does not because there are no scenes of war in many of the homes of rich Americans.
People who fall asleep to your videos probably do so because your narration is very consistent in tone and cadence. You sound relaxed, so when repeated consistently it relaxes others.
I am torn between the time you spend educating us on civilizations of the past and wanting you to continue writing further novels in your Gods of Bronze and Vampire immortal Knight series. Your talent is being spread so far. I love it.
Archeologists and Historians really liked interpreting ancient cultures as peaceful utopias, didn't they? The Mayans, the Cucuteni, the Minoans. You'd think they'd assume that the violence we see and read about throughout all of human history would just be a universal constant.
It's true, moderners LOVE looking for some clear-cut example of the "perfect" civ as some model to aspire to, and "if only we could get back to that, our problems would be solved!" which is just completely silly, magical thinking. Imagine if people in the 55th century looked at the bits and pieces leftover from our civilization and concluded that our society was "clearly peaceful" based on a handful of artifacts and excerpts. Make it harder: nothing we wrote down survives, or if it does it's totally without context and meaning. We're likely never going to understand the Kefti in their own language, so to assume that we "knew" them is pretty wild indeed.
19th century archeological ideas that have since been disproven long before you were even born. I think you’re being dramatic or out of touch with the new research.
Not only does this man take notice of his subscribers despite his channel's size, he picks up on a pattern and helps to guide us on what we may need, kudos to you man! On a note with the topic at hand, given how good humans are good at slapping eachother with various objects when disagreements arise, I have always been skeptical of such a successful civilization being "peaceful"...plus the Myceneans probably didn't just show up on Crete and conquer it "just because", they probably accumulated reasons from the Minoans yeeting sling rocks at them.
It could be fair to say the culture didn’t seek conflict, but weren’t going to be overcome by it either. I love the idea of a “navy” guarding the coast leaving the inland areas for societal and commerce centers. If I was in charge of Crete in the Bronze Age, I would have set it up that way. The island as a port was necessary for all the surrounding cultures. Focusing on a defensive military would be best. No need to steel land for resources, because the trade had to stop there with their cargos anyway, making an offensive military an unnecessary risk.
If you think about it, the British Empire was ferociously militaristic - and so commercial that Napoleon called the Brits “a nation of shopkeepers” - yet the subject of much of Georgian, Victorian and Edwarian art was women. Domestic decoration in many parts of the world has traditionally been done by women: it often has a protective or invocational aspect to it. Maybe these idyllic, paradisiacal scenes were to help “make it so” in real life. I wonder if women were painting their idealised version of life around them (and proud portraits of their growing boys). Also - if a fair proportion of the men were sailors, they would be away for months at a time trading / pirating. Travel around the Med was very seasonal with direction according to current and the prevailing winds at different times of year. Women in fishing and seafaring communities do tend to organise/manage village and estate life themselves - the farming year, goods manufacture and often the retail &/or warehousing end of commerce. Places with a lot of the mature males absent are bound to be seen as an opportunity for the sailor-pirates from other places. Another reason for training boys up early.
Theres also been a noted drop in sales for violent movies and violent video games in areas with extreme violence like war zones (between states or gangs). I had a friend who lived in a middle class part of Texas but had family in Mexico and despite being very similar culturally he said the Mexican kids tended to play a lot more FIFA whereas the Mexican American kids tended to play more Call of Duty and Halo. The thinking of the study on violent media is that violence is disruptive and we grow sick of it, so we tend to start consuming more idealistic media. Even in WW2 when war films were being produced by the boatload even as the war raged were often either focused on victory and the ensuing peace or they were consumed more by those far from the front line but still invested in the war (like many families back in the US or UK) and even then alot of the war films of the time weren't true art but government propaganda. Also that bit about a nation of shop keepers really shows how important economies are to war. The US was less warlike then much of Europe and Asia during both world wars but out competed Japan and Germany by out producing them and the British were similar against napoleon. Ancient Greece was tiny by population and size but even divided they were able to go toe to toe with Persia, the largest empire on earth, and against the Egyptians because they were THE premier maritime force both in naval warfare and in shipping/trading. Wealth doesn't just mean money itself but also more/better education, engineering, and production.
Oh gawd - next thing, someone is going to translate the Harappan texts and discover those inscriptions were all blood-curdling threats and curses! Great video!
I don't fall asleep to your videos, but I do admit to enjoying listening to you. I really enjoy your well-founded, deeply researched videos. Listening to a guy who actually knows what he's talking about is very pleasant. It's the same feeling I get when I read your books.
I remember trying to write a novel from the perspective of the Minoans back in 2004 - 2006. The way I tried to approach it was that the Minoan Peace was Imperial propaganda, spread by vassal kings that stood to benefit from Minoan riches. But the actual Minoan Empire was more like Britain during the 1700s, with a powerful Navy that constantly and violently interfered with neighboring Empires, going as far as hiring Achaean "privateers" to harass the Egyptians. Perhaps I will revisit that concept.
I'm one of those that fine your videos not only informative but relaxing as well. I have used your videos for something pleasant to listen to as I drift off at night.
Thank you for not only leaving a link to the sources for your video, but especially SAYING your primary sources IN the video. Many people (myself included😅) often don't go through the trouble of actually checking the listed sources, and a lot of youtubers get away with having bad sources. No one calls them out because people hear "sources are listed" and assume that proves legitimacy by itself. So, thank you for the transparency.
Arthur Evans was an Edwardian. The Edwardians believed in Herbert Spencer, who differentiated between "militaristic" and "commercial" civilizations, with Britain as the epitome of a commercial society in contradistnction to the warlike and militaristic society of Germany. He basically projected his own world-vview on the past he dug - and falsified his finds in his publications.
It's also quite comical to label all of Germany as militaristic, when the various kingdoms and principalities within it were quite different. Aside from Hesse, Schwabia, and Preussen, most German countries/regions were known for craftsmanship and agriculture, rather than war.
No walls or fortifications only means that they felt secure and didn't feel threatened by any outside forces. Doesn't mean they were peaceful. The mythology behind the Minotaur paints them more as bullies.
@@DanDavisHistory You know, it's hard to say for sure one way or another. Agamemnon of Mycenae from the Trojan war fame hasn't been found historically. I do however think that the minoans were painted as bullies for a reason. They may not have conquered or raided, but perhaps exacted tribute or a tax of some kind from their mainland Greek neighbors.
True Sparta famously bragged that their city needed no fortifications because their army was the wall, also the mountainous topography of Lakodamia but that another story
The "Minotaur" was an Athenian political cartoon about Crete created 1,000 years after them to "justify" the mainland conquest. It has no more historical factuality than a Minoan "king Minos," which no respectable archaeologist has ever (ever) shown.
Brother you & Asha Logos are my GO TO videos for centering me and reminding me that I am a part of an unbroken line extending from the AllFather to the infinite future of my sons and their sons…your audience LOVES you!!
I took a couple of ancient history classes in college. My professors never implied that the Minoans were peaceful. If anything they more impressed that they didn't fight each other and instead went out of Crete to mess with the ancient Mycenaean. The Minoans were one of the earliest people to develop the sail, which really helped them dominate their little corner of the Mediterranean.
Excellent work, well argued. As you point out archaelogists tend to interpret sites from their own times/expereince. This does not make older interpretations "wrong" just different. After all in times to come there will be other interpretations.
Your videos helped me get through recovering from surgery where I was laid up for months, Now I am going to buy your books, Thanks for doing what you do.
Glad to see this one finally made it over the six-figure-viewcount hump! It certainly deserved it: a wonderful video, as always. Very detailed and very engaging. And hey, looks like I was lucky enough to get the five-hundredth comment, too!
*General spoiler: no ancient people was peaceful.* Good video as usual, when I see a new video from Dan Davis or from Survive the Jive it's always a good day.
It's amazing how many myths about the Minoans exist just because Arthur Evans said it was so. There's so much evidence that has been seen since then that not only did these people make weapons, they used them. Hard to have a Thalassocracy without warriors. Once again, archeology matches what we are told by the ancients.
I studied the Minoans in grad school with an expert in Bronze Age archaeology in the 90’s and all I can (still) say is until ‘we’ manage to decipher their language Linear A virtually nothing accurate or definitive can be understood about this intriguing culture - which, I can say, was asymmetrical - literally. Housing structures, painting programmes, stylistic motifs, etc, a completely asymmetrical aesthetic. That is unique. Why, I have no idea, hopefully Linear A, once we can read it, will explain a lot!
Thank you 🙏 ( Dan Davis history) channel for sharing this informative and wonderful historical coverage video about ancient Crete peoples known as ( Minoans ) during bronze age in Mesolethic periods..
Very well done! Human beings have always been an aggressive, violent species. We kid ourselves if we think that somehow that that was not true somewhere in the past. Archaeologists also at one time believed that the ancient Mayans were a peaceful people; nothing could be further from the truth.
Boy you hit a sweet spot for me with this video. I am especially interested in neolithic Crete. I visited Crete and Knossos in the 1980s and have spent decades watching Archeological Journals and digs for current discovery. Prehistoric fauna especially fascinate me.
Considering the war like nature of present day Cretans it's hard to imagine that their ancestors were any different. In any case, rough land makes rough people.
Well the greek tribe that inhabited Crete were Dorians. Same thing in Sicily and the islands south of Peloponnese. To the present day all these regions share a very similar culture. In ancient and Roman times Crete was renowned for its excellent archers that worked as mercenaries. Those were not Minoan descendants though, they were Dorian greeks
The Romans didn't show war in their paintings very often, but they were an extremely warlike people. Martial art isn't correlated in any way to martial societies.
@@Casmaniac most of the surviving Minoan art is inside buildings that were housing. Military art in Rome is mostly on public monuments and Temples. So I was comparing Roman home art to Minoan home art. While trajans column is impressive, The overwhelming majority of Roman art falls in the styles called Roman 1, 2, 3, and 4. Which depict, marble like faux stone, gardens and fake windows, cityscapes and scenes of daily life, and scenes of nature and animals respectively. None of which focus on military things.
@@wintersking4290 Isn't that super famous fresco of Alexander in the battle of Issus an example of "home art"? The whole point here is not to draw broad conclusions based on partial evidence. Your OP was a very general statement, now you are walking it back by expanding on it. I think they call that a "motte and bailey" tactic.
Absolutely stellar shit, as usual! You're really smashing it out of the park lately, loving it. My only complaint is I'd like MORE! :D But I understand the amount of research that goes into every episode, so I can hardly complain.
I have been studying the Minoans along with the Medieval Japanese so I see a major parallel. Massive Japanese cities like Kyoto and Nara were not walled well into the Kamakura or high medieval period. I would see the Minoans as being about as violent as Japan was during the Nara and Heian periods. Occasional large rebellions as wars on the island but very peaceful for the time. Given the huge courts I would imagine most incidents of violence would be palace disputes between elites. I have no doubt though that Minoan sailors were involved in a lot of violence abroad.
The perception of the Minoans in the early to mid 20th century reminds me of how people viewed the Mayans in the same way during the same period. They were considered a group of peace loving astronomers. Then the decipherment of the Maya Code showed that this view was totally wrong and that warfare between Mayan city-states was endemic. If the Minoans had left us a huge cache of texts in Linear A (similar to the ones discovered in Hattusa in Hittite) that could be deciphered and understood today then we would probably have numerous accounts of war. I really enjoyed the video. I hope to see the Minoans covered again.
The idea that the Minoans were master sword smiths without having a standing army that would need and drive the continuous innovation of the art is... baffling. To say the least.
Yes, Dan, warfare is ubiquitous. Whether it's between competing clans or tribes (as would have been the case for my Irish ancestors), or between city states or nations, lack of depiction in art doesn't mean war didn't happen. It's certainly also true that many weapons served multiple purposes. Here in the Philippines the traditional "bolo", a machete like blade with a wooden handle, was used mainly for clearing and farming purposes, but also doubled as an effective weapon. A lot of warfare is not depicted in art. Certainly, because the Minoans were a "thallasocracy", they could not have become so without military power.
Frankly whenever I hear of this or that society as being peaceful I usually chuckle and shake my head at the naïveté. The Mediterranean was a violent place and still is today
An argument in favor of the Minoans being less militarized than what we’ve been used to in the ancient world is that the Minoans, as mentioned in the video, are a result of that first big Middle Eastern / Anatolian farmer migration into europe. We know that those people’s culture was less warlike than the later Yamnaya steppe herder culture. Another contrast between them is that the indoeuropean people’s culture and religion was surrounded by a sense of a warlord / patriarch /King being the epicenter of all people’s groups, larger or smaller. Same way as they depicted their gods too. On the other hand, those earlier middle eastern derived farmer populations did tend to revolve their cultures and beliefs around a “mother earth” goddess. Same way you’ve depicted those early people groups on your book Im currently reading, Godborn (yes, I’ve been doing my homework). So yes, the Minoans were possibly less focused on war than their successing Mycenaeans who were the first indoeuropean group in the southern Balkans. But also yes, they did have to worry about war just like everybody else. It has always been a part of human existence. Last thing I want to point out is the intriguing similarity between the Minoan’s love of the bull and how they really took pride in antagonizing them but also relating with them, with the modern Basques, who, being considered the last european people that originate from that extremely old first population of farmers in Europe (at least linguistically) they also seem to have the strongest connection to bulls than all the rest, even outshining the rest of Spain in that aspect.
King Minos didnt find prisoners for the labyrinth peacefully, lol. Dan, you said something at the end there that made me think of something. Reading the sources instead of you... Well, there is something to that, but dont sell yourself short either. I'm certain the value of a good, controlled imagination has just as much validity as the hard science, and those scientists MUST use that imagination to fill in the blanks. You do a spectacular job of bringing both of these aspects to your videos, and still has an entertainment value to boot. What you bring to the table is every bit as valid as alphabeted parchment types. When you do go out on a limb, you don't go too far, its all still quite plausible. Thanks Dan!
I use your videos to get to sleep. but not because thay are boring. On the contrary I find tham very interesting and well presented, I like them so much I brought your books.(thunder series) It'd because you have a smoothing voice and a good cadence. Helps me sleep.
not gonna lie, ive been putting off going back to school due to indecision for a while now, but because of watching videos like these - and specifically yours, like the one on Ötzi - ive finally found something that makes me want to go to college. thank you for being the catalyst that showed me i want to pursue anthropology!
very good and enjoyable program concerning peoples of much interest to me, the Neolithic Farmer folk is my top interest and any/all cultures that stemmed from their migrations, as well as any remnant cultures from their day that comes down to us now as legend etc.
Great video as usual Dan. I suspect the Minoans engaged in warfare as needed, though perhaps a powerful navy gave them an excellent first layer of defence. Maybe land warfare became just stagnant and ritualistic enough that when the Mycenaeans (or Sea People) came knocking, they weren’t up to the task of defending their island. Who knows.
To build such a civilization you need order, for order you need control, for control you need force. That's just within, let alone other societies wanting a piece of the pie.
As an American, I have to say that I think the interpretation of hunting as "elite class activity" is 100% a modern European view. 99% of hunters in modern day America would certainly not be considered "elites". I really think this is holding back archaeology in the region
Lol don't be ridiculous. Ordinary Europeans today hunt too. My own working class English mother grew up hunting with her dad for the table. Working class Frenchmen love hunting boar today. It's not about the modern world. In the ancient Aegean, the boar hunt was an elite activity. "His grandfather Autolycus and his sons have helped Odysseus in achieving his honor as a boar slayer. This depiction of the mythic hunter and dangerous beast is a motif that spans the ancient Mediterranean world. Despite depictions ranging from the feeble hare to the ferocious lion in both literary accounts and artistic images across the Mediterranean, one that is often mentioned is the boar hunt. An act that spans across cultures, the wild boar is one of the most dangerous game to hunt in the ancient world. Needing courage, bravery and skill to hunt, the boar is a game that demands respect from the hunter. The Greeks knew this all too well, which shows in their inclusion of the boar in their myth as a dangerous animal that can only be pacified or slain by such great heroes as Heracles and Odysseus. Greek writers such as Xenophon have left writings on how to slay boars so that great kings of such cities as Sparta and Athens can display their grand polis’ wealth during the grand hunt." From Boar Hunting Symbolism from the Ancient Greeks to Romans by Cole Hollingsworth.
Will more of the Vampire Knight books be added to audible?? I just got to the end of the vampire heretic and theres a hole of emptiness now 😂 love you books
Great, well-researched video as always. I'm not very well versed in the military stuff, so it's alwsys good to learn something new. I didn’t realise that the peaceful Minoans myth was still considered reality by some. Btw, what’s the song playing in the background? Sounds great.
There used to be a phase where popular thinkers (not necessarily historians) would assume, that because a society was focused on commercial enterprise, they couldn't also have a military tradition. It's especially prominent when talking about societies like Carthage because they ignore the contemporary sources saying that trade actually led to a rather deep military tradition due to how risky it is. Carthage also has the issue of being compared to Rome like how the Minoans are compared to the Myceneans and therefore "have" to be opposites.
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Yeah I've heard some concerning things about their practices, maybe have a look
I have used it and I liked it, you should not be so smug and disrespectful. I always see such hive mind comments like this, popular videos told people not to like Betterhelp or Established Titles, so that's all I ever see criticized. The issue of not real doctors seems to be based on one guy, I'll give you even if it is a handful, this is a nationwide service, and even in my state there are stories every now and then of somebody operating with a faked license. This isn't unique to betterhelp. And the collecting data thing is silly, all that info is already on google or your social media, people act like it is going through the session with the therapist and now you are getting ads based on what you talked about. I just hate that this is the best thing trying to solve the problem of friction in the therapy experience. I didn't lose hours a week driving around, and the network on there and ease of switching therapist is better than what you would find locally. But things like dumb video game ads that waste your time and collect your data, other useless junk never gets critiqued, mostly because they are not as popular, and this sick human thing to tear down more important things because there is a risk of it causing more harm. But countless people need and use this service. You look it up, there is a reason why major channels are happy to work with them after those few incidents years ago. @@bosco4533
Awful company to endorse, tbh (quite appalling how they handle private customer data, please look into it)
The academics are always trying to find their ideal world of peace and communism. It has never existed and it never will.
Dan Davis im curious. When it comes to dna, modern or ancient. Which Haplogroups make up your own genetic lineage?
Nice video! I'm from Crete and live less than a mile away from Knossos. I always thought that the "peaceful Minoans" myth was an exageration because they were being compared to the Myceneans.
If anyone of you wants to come visit Crete for its ancient past or its wanderful landscape you are always welcome! 😁
Whats ur favorite booze from there? (I was going to say whats ur favorite creteish booze but im sure thats not right lol)
I tend to believe that the myth persists more as evidence of wishful thinking by those who hold to it despite the fact that, as Dan Davis says, no other society was peaceful in that way and if the Minoans had been that peaceful they would not have dominated trade the way they did, or even lasted.
Got to protect what they have made in the Big Blue sea around them👍👍 @@richardarcher7177
@@missourimongoose8858Raki
I'm pretty sure Minoans sacrificed Mycenaeans...
I never believed that minoans were bronze age peaceniks but I always appreciated their fashion sense.
Warm legs, cold chests?
BOOBS!
titties and beer... yeah!
All the greatest civilizations have appreciated a good titty
#freethenipple !
The samurai used to compose poems about the falling of a snow flake or a cherry blossom petal... Didn't make them peaceful... :)
Part of bushido is to live each day at the fullest and appreciate the smaller things in life as one dont know what the next days will bring,and in the biggest struggles,one finds peace also.
The Minoans could have been traders that supplied weapons two surrounding customers
@@doomoo5365most people who trade in things of that sort often use them.....we call them arms merchants & gun runners
@@MrPh30bushido didn't exist in the Sengoku Jidai when most of those poems were written Bushido are modern ideals anachronistically applied to the Samurai of previous periods.
The decoration on samurai armor is unpractical, therefore, they did not use armor in warfare. It is just ritual! And because it is dumb to go to war without armor, they did not go to war. The swords, spears, axes, clubs, naginatas, bows and guns, even bombs were all ritual!
It seems so super obvious to me that the reason the Minoans were able to have such a rich and luxurious culture was a result of them having military dominance over their immediate surroundings, perhaps even the wider region
Indeed.i was born in southern Peloponeese and the amount of Minoan goods exhibited in the local museum's is staggering.found in Peloponeese,even in remote and mountain's regions.so trade and war came hand in hand
wouldn't say miilitary dominance but they were great seafarers which means traders / pirate raiders. and they had several copper mines which was one of the most valuable resources back then and they had incredible conditions for agriculture in Crete as well and deep forests. and their freaking island is like one of the premium locations of the mediterranean because basically everything is protected by the coast, so it was extremely difficult to get ON the island in one piece especially since navigating those early ships was really hard and not precise. I guess the Myceneans officially came in peace but then started a brutal ambush like they did in Troy regarding the myth.
@@BawonSamdi1 according to modern historians it happened after the volcanic explosion of Thera,modern Santorini.althowh the Minoans rebuiilded their state again the new seafarers from Pelloponeese and the rest of northern Greece of that time set foot little by little in the island.according to Illiad by the time of the Trojan war ,almost all of the Greek tribes concixested peacefully in Crete.the great majority were the Minoans Greeks, but all the others were there ,possibly as traders,mercenaries sailors ,laborers etc
@@BawonSamdi1 you seem quite confident for such a huge amount of speculation. Question: how can there be "deep forests" on a relatively small island like Crete? lol
@@Casmaniac it is true, seriously :D there are archeological records which are abit more valid than someone writing down fairytales and myths, there are also 3 mountains which are higher than 2000m which is also special for such a relatively small island.
but in comparison to most mediterranean islands, Crete is a HUGE island.
To say that the Minoans didn't conduct war because there were no scenes of war in their castles is like saying the US does not because there are no scenes of war in many of the homes of rich Americans.
I was trying to think of a modern analogy.... well done!
But there are.
@@stevenobrien557yeah, and like, Tons of Gun-Saves
@@rtwfreak2012 Gun-Saves, toys, paintings, media
a lot of things in the US depict war lol
I was going to make a similar comment. Thanks for doing it.
People who fall asleep to your videos probably do so because your narration is very consistent in tone and cadence. You sound relaxed, so when repeated consistently it relaxes others.
I am torn between the time you spend educating us on civilizations of the past and wanting you to continue writing further novels in your Gods of Bronze and Vampire immortal Knight series. Your talent is being spread so far. I love it.
There is no distinction between these actually
Archeologists and Historians really liked interpreting ancient cultures as peaceful utopias, didn't they? The Mayans, the Cucuteni, the Minoans. You'd think they'd assume that the violence we see and read about throughout all of human history would just be a universal constant.
It's true, moderners LOVE looking for some clear-cut example of the "perfect" civ as some model to aspire to, and "if only we could get back to that, our problems would be solved!" which is just completely silly, magical thinking. Imagine if people in the 55th century looked at the bits and pieces leftover from our civilization and concluded that our society was "clearly peaceful" based on a handful of artifacts and excerpts. Make it harder: nothing we wrote down survives, or if it does it's totally without context and meaning. We're likely never going to understand the Kefti in their own language, so to assume that we "knew" them is pretty wild indeed.
19th century archeological ideas that have since been disproven long before you were even born. I think you’re being dramatic or out of touch with the new research.
@@pinchevulpes Hence the use of the PAST TENSE of like. As in, they did it in the past.
@pinchevulpes Yet he goes into detail of more recent research and presents plenty of evidence the Minoans weren't as peaceful as previously claimed.
What tells you this from the isolated Cucutenis?
Not only does this man take notice of his subscribers despite his channel's size, he picks up on a pattern and helps to guide us on what we may need, kudos to you man!
On a note with the topic at hand, given how good humans are good at slapping eachother with various objects when disagreements arise, I have always been skeptical of such a successful civilization being "peaceful"...plus the Myceneans probably didn't just show up on Crete and conquer it "just because", they probably accumulated reasons from the Minoans yeeting sling rocks at them.
"Malice in Wonderland" is an amazing name for that paper. Great video as always!
Yeah his papers are always creative as well as informative and on exciting, interesting subjects. He publishes a lot too. He seems to love his job.
I was just about to write the same myself. Highly chuckle-worthy. Which is the greatest accolade in academia.
It could be fair to say the culture didn’t seek conflict, but weren’t going to be overcome by it either. I love the idea of a “navy” guarding the coast leaving the inland areas for societal and commerce centers. If I was in charge of Crete in the Bronze Age, I would have set it up that way. The island as a port was necessary for all the surrounding cultures. Focusing on a defensive military would be best. No need to steel land for resources, because the trade had to stop there with their cargos anyway, making an offensive military an unnecessary risk.
If you think about it, the British Empire was ferociously militaristic - and so commercial that Napoleon called the Brits “a nation of shopkeepers” - yet the subject of much of Georgian, Victorian and Edwarian art was women.
Domestic decoration in many parts of the world has traditionally been done by women: it often has a protective or invocational aspect to it. Maybe these idyllic, paradisiacal scenes were to help “make it so” in real life. I wonder if women were painting their idealised version of life around them (and proud portraits of their growing boys).
Also - if a fair proportion of the men were sailors, they would be away for months at a time trading / pirating. Travel around the Med was very seasonal with direction according to current and the prevailing winds at different times of year. Women in fishing and seafaring communities do tend to organise/manage village and estate life themselves - the farming year, goods manufacture and often the retail &/or warehousing end of commerce.
Places with a lot of the mature males absent are bound to be seen as an opportunity for the sailor-pirates from other places. Another reason for training boys up early.
Theres also been a noted drop in sales for violent movies and violent video games in areas with extreme violence like war zones (between states or gangs). I had a friend who lived in a middle class part of Texas but had family in Mexico and despite being very similar culturally he said the Mexican kids tended to play a lot more FIFA whereas the Mexican American kids tended to play more Call of Duty and Halo. The thinking of the study on violent media is that violence is disruptive and we grow sick of it, so we tend to start consuming more idealistic media. Even in WW2 when war films were being produced by the boatload even as the war raged were often either focused on victory and the ensuing peace or they were consumed more by those far from the front line but still invested in the war (like many families back in the US or UK) and even then alot of the war films of the time weren't true art but government propaganda.
Also that bit about a nation of shop keepers really shows how important economies are to war. The US was less warlike then much of Europe and Asia during both world wars but out competed Japan and Germany by out producing them and the British were similar against napoleon. Ancient Greece was tiny by population and size but even divided they were able to go toe to toe with Persia, the largest empire on earth, and against the Egyptians because they were THE premier maritime force both in naval warfare and in shipping/trading. Wealth doesn't just mean money itself but also more/better education, engineering, and production.
@@arthas640Amazing comment! Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
Oh gawd - next thing, someone is going to translate the Harappan texts and discover those inscriptions were all blood-curdling threats and curses!
Great video!
That or "Cow for sale, 3 bronze bars or best offer"
@@Replicaateor “You sold me poor quality copper ingots!”
@@alexanderren1097 Followed by blood curdling threats and curses for those shoddy ingots
I don't fall asleep to your videos, but I do admit to enjoying listening to you. I really enjoy your well-founded, deeply researched videos. Listening to a guy who actually knows what he's talking about is very pleasant. It's the same feeling I get when I read your books.
I fall asleep to his videos, but then I have to go back and watch again to pick up what I missed.
"Exquisite" is the word indeed. Enchanting also. If I could go back in time, that's where I'd be headed
I remember trying to write a novel from the perspective of the Minoans back in 2004 - 2006. The way I tried to approach it was that the Minoan Peace was Imperial propaganda, spread by vassal kings that stood to benefit from Minoan riches. But the actual Minoan Empire was more like Britain during the 1700s, with a powerful Navy that constantly and violently interfered with neighboring Empires, going as far as hiring Achaean "privateers" to harass the Egyptians.
Perhaps I will revisit that concept.
This is the best channel in all of UA-cam.
I see a Dan Davis video drop, I watch. Don't always comment :) But I need to remember to say thanks - so thanks man, great work as always.
I'm one of those that fine your videos not only informative but relaxing as well. I have used your videos for something pleasant to listen to as I drift off at night.
Thank you for not only leaving a link to the sources for your video, but especially SAYING your primary sources IN the video.
Many people (myself included😅) often don't go through the trouble of actually checking the listed sources, and a lot of youtubers get away with having bad sources. No one calls them out because people hear "sources are listed" and assume that proves legitimacy by itself.
So, thank you for the transparency.
Arthur Evans was an Edwardian. The Edwardians believed in Herbert Spencer, who differentiated between "militaristic" and "commercial" civilizations, with Britain as the epitome of a commercial society in contradistnction to the warlike and militaristic society of Germany. He basically projected his own world-vview on the past he dug - and falsified his finds in his publications.
Sadly, this attitude of projecting ones world view onto past societies persists to this day
It's also quite comical to label all of Germany as militaristic, when the various kingdoms and principalities within it were quite different. Aside from Hesse, Schwabia, and Preussen, most German countries/regions were known for craftsmanship and agriculture, rather than war.
The idea that anyone can see Britain as not militaristic is WILD
I never knew Britain got that vast colonial empire just by means of trade and diplomacy.
And Britain was a peaceful empire that grew just through trade… 🙄
Excellent video!!! I only have one criticism, it wasn't long enough (lol). Seriously, it was really done so well. Thanks for making it.
No walls or fortifications only means that they felt secure and didn't feel threatened by any outside forces. Doesn't mean they were peaceful. The mythology behind the Minotaur paints them more as bullies.
Some believe Minos, if he existed, was a ruler of post Mycenaean conquest Knossos, and so was a "Mycenaean" himself.
@@DanDavisHistory You know, it's hard to say for sure one way or another. Agamemnon of Mycenae from the Trojan war fame hasn't been found historically.
I do however think that the minoans were painted as bullies for a reason. They may not have conquered or raided, but perhaps exacted tribute or a tax of some kind from their mainland Greek neighbors.
True Sparta famously bragged that their city needed no fortifications because their army was the wall, also the mountainous topography of Lakodamia but that another story
The "Minotaur" was an Athenian political cartoon about Crete created 1,000 years after them to "justify" the mainland conquest. It has no more historical factuality than a Minoan "king Minos," which no respectable archaeologist has ever (ever) shown.
@@DanDavisHistory And some believe in flying horses.
Brother you & Asha Logos are my GO TO videos for centering me and reminding me that I am a part of an unbroken line extending from the AllFather to the infinite future of my sons and their sons…your audience LOVES you!!
😳
You always do such great documentaries.
I took a couple of ancient history classes in college. My professors never implied that the Minoans were peaceful. If anything they more impressed that they didn't fight each other and instead went out of Crete to mess with the ancient Mycenaean. The Minoans were one of the earliest people to develop the sail, which really helped them dominate their little corner of the Mediterranean.
Excellent work, well argued. As you point out archaelogists tend to interpret sites from their own times/expereince. This does not make older interpretations "wrong" just different. After all in times to come there will be other interpretations.
Bro! I love your work. You are also a great writer. Much love from across the pond!
Haven't read the study, but "Malice in Wonderland" is a great title.
Your videos helped me get through recovering from surgery where I was laid up for months, Now I am going to buy your books, Thanks for doing what you do.
Glad to see this one finally made it over the six-figure-viewcount hump! It certainly deserved it: a wonderful video, as always. Very detailed and very engaging. And hey, looks like I was lucky enough to get the five-hundredth comment, too!
Dear Mr. Dan Davis -- you are simply the BEST, and I never fall asleep enjoying your execellent WORK !!!
*General spoiler: no ancient people was peaceful.*
Good video as usual, when I see a new video from Dan Davis or from Survive the Jive it's always a good day.
It's amazing how many myths about the Minoans exist just because Arthur Evans said it was so. There's so much evidence that has been seen since then that not only did these people make weapons, they used them. Hard to have a Thalassocracy without warriors. Once again, archeology matches what we are told by the ancients.
I studied the Minoans in grad school with an expert in Bronze Age archaeology in the 90’s and all I can (still) say is until ‘we’ manage to decipher their language Linear A virtually nothing accurate or definitive can be understood about this intriguing culture - which, I can say, was asymmetrical - literally. Housing structures, painting programmes, stylistic motifs, etc, a completely asymmetrical aesthetic. That is unique. Why, I have no idea, hopefully Linear A, once we can read it, will explain a lot!
this is what I needed today, thank you
Thank you Dan for another interesting video!
Love your work! Looking forward to Gods of Bronze Book 3!
Thank you 🙏 ( Dan Davis history) channel for sharing this informative and wonderful historical coverage video about ancient Crete peoples known as ( Minoans ) during bronze age in Mesolethic periods..
Another precious piece of history, and yes you are calming and insightful
Very well done! Human beings have always been an aggressive, violent species. We kid ourselves if we think that somehow that that was not true somewhere in the past. Archaeologists also at one time believed that the ancient Mayans were a peaceful people; nothing could be further from the truth.
Your work continues to be amazing! I'm starting Vampire Khan soon BTW 😁
Great video, I can absolutely see someone going to sleep with your voice, it's very calming, no mater how gruesom the topics are.
Boy you hit a sweet spot for me with this video. I am especially interested in neolithic Crete. I visited Crete and Knossos in the 1980s and have spent decades watching Archeological Journals and digs for current discovery. Prehistoric fauna especially fascinate me.
I look forward to your videos, Dan, thanks so much for all of your hard work!
Been to waiting for a new vid and this just popped on my fyp
Well done. I really like your work and appreciate the depth of your knowledge on these periods.
A new video of Dan Davis is always a good news 😊
Considering the war like nature of present day Cretans it's hard to imagine that their ancestors were any different. In any case, rough land makes rough people.
Well the greek tribe that inhabited Crete were Dorians. Same thing in Sicily and the islands south of Peloponnese. To the present day all these regions share a very similar culture. In ancient and Roman times Crete was renowned for its excellent archers that worked as mercenaries. Those were not Minoan descendants though, they were Dorian greeks
Another fantastic presentation Dan, a true feast for the imagination and soul ❤👏👏👏 🗡
Very much enjoyed this well done presentation. Thank you.
I recognize an image from the Osprey Publishing book 'Early Aegean Warrior'. I recommend it to anyone that likes this video.
Afaik the story of Theseus states, that Greek cities had to pay tribute to the Minoans. You don't pay tribute to a peaceful neighbour.
Love it, thanks for sharing this with us Big Dog!
The Romans didn't show war in their paintings very often, but they were an extremely warlike people. Martial art isn't correlated in any way to martial societies.
Google "Trajans column" please, thank you
Having visited Pompei , I must agree with you
You seem to ignore the many many examples of frescos that show gladiators and other violent scenes, not to mention giant monuments like Trajans column
@@Casmaniac most of the surviving Minoan art is inside buildings that were housing. Military art in Rome is mostly on public monuments and Temples. So I was comparing Roman home art to Minoan home art. While trajans column is impressive, The overwhelming majority of Roman art falls in the styles called Roman 1, 2, 3, and 4. Which depict, marble like faux stone, gardens and fake windows, cityscapes and scenes of daily life, and scenes of nature and animals respectively. None of which focus on military things.
@@wintersking4290 Isn't that super famous fresco of Alexander in the battle of Issus an example of "home art"? The whole point here is not to draw broad conclusions based on partial evidence. Your OP was a very general statement, now you are walking it back by expanding on it. I think they call that a "motte and bailey" tactic.
Wonderful presentation and review of the information available.
Thanks
Always appreciate your videos and research.
Thank you, again.
Absolutely stellar shit, as usual! You're really smashing it out of the park lately, loving it. My only complaint is I'd like MORE! :D But I understand the amount of research that goes into every episode, so I can hardly complain.
Great video! Many interesting and new things - thanks!
❤Love the commercial!
Yet another great video. Thank you 😊
I have been studying the Minoans along with the Medieval Japanese so I see a major parallel. Massive Japanese cities like Kyoto and Nara were not walled well into the Kamakura or high medieval period. I would see the Minoans as being about as violent as Japan was during the Nara and Heian periods. Occasional large rebellions as wars on the island but very peaceful for the time. Given the huge courts I would imagine most incidents of violence would be palace disputes between elites. I have no doubt though that Minoan sailors were involved in a lot of violence abroad.
Great video footage of the sites, including Mycenae.
The perception of the Minoans in the early to mid 20th century reminds me of how people viewed the Mayans in the same way during the same period. They were considered a group of peace loving astronomers. Then the decipherment of the Maya Code showed that this view was totally wrong and that warfare between Mayan city-states was endemic.
If the Minoans had left us a huge cache of texts in Linear A (similar to the ones discovered in Hattusa in Hittite) that could be deciphered and understood today then we would probably have numerous accounts of war.
I really enjoyed the video. I hope to see the Minoans covered again.
Your voice is soothing!
The idea that the Minoans were master sword smiths without having a standing army that would need and drive the continuous innovation of the art is... baffling. To say the least.
Yes, Dan, warfare is ubiquitous. Whether it's between competing clans or tribes (as would have been the case for my Irish ancestors), or between city states or nations, lack of depiction in art doesn't mean war didn't happen. It's certainly also true that many weapons served multiple purposes. Here in the Philippines the traditional "bolo", a machete like blade with a wooden handle, was used mainly for clearing and farming purposes, but also doubled as an effective weapon. A lot of warfare is not depicted in art. Certainly, because the Minoans were a "thallasocracy", they could not have become so without military power.
Frankly whenever I hear of this or that society as being peaceful I usually chuckle and shake my head at the naïveté. The Mediterranean was a violent place and still is today
An argument in favor of the Minoans being less militarized than what we’ve been used to in the ancient world is that the Minoans, as mentioned in the video, are a result of that first big Middle Eastern / Anatolian farmer migration into europe. We know that those people’s culture was less warlike than the later Yamnaya steppe herder culture. Another contrast between them is that the indoeuropean people’s culture and religion was surrounded by a sense of a warlord / patriarch /King being the epicenter of all people’s groups, larger or smaller. Same way as they depicted their gods too. On the other hand, those earlier middle eastern derived farmer populations did tend to revolve their cultures and beliefs around a “mother earth” goddess. Same way you’ve depicted those early people groups on your book Im currently reading, Godborn (yes, I’ve been doing my homework). So yes, the Minoans were possibly less focused on war than their successing Mycenaeans who were the first indoeuropean group in the southern Balkans. But also yes, they did have to worry about war just like everybody else. It has always been a part of human existence. Last thing I want to point out is the intriguing similarity between the Minoan’s love of the bull and how they really took pride in antagonizing them but also relating with them, with the modern Basques, who, being considered the last european people that originate from that extremely old first population of farmers in Europe (at least linguistically) they also seem to have the strongest connection to bulls than all the rest, even outshining the rest of Spain in that aspect.
King Minos didnt find prisoners for the labyrinth peacefully, lol.
Dan, you said something at the end there that made me think of something.
Reading the sources instead of you... Well, there is something to that, but dont sell yourself short either.
I'm certain the value of a good, controlled imagination has just as much validity as the hard science, and those scientists MUST use that imagination to fill in the blanks.
You do a spectacular job of bringing both of these aspects to your videos, and still has an entertainment value to boot.
What you bring to the table is every bit as valid as alphabeted parchment types. When you do go out on a limb, you don't go too far, its all still quite plausible.
Thanks Dan!
Thank you.
Outstanding! Many thanks
Warfare is what enabled the leisure the minoans seemingly enjoyed. That’s how it works across all civilizations.
Love your videos, really fascinating stuff that scratches my bronze age history itch. What is the background music from 18:53 to 21:10?
My man! Just crushing it! Dope.
Great video! - thank you.
thank you for another fantastic video 😊😊
Great job Dan. 🎉
I use your videos to get to sleep.
but not because thay are boring. On the contrary I find tham very interesting and well presented, I like them so much I brought your books.(thunder series)
It'd because you have a smoothing voice and a good cadence. Helps me sleep.
not gonna lie, ive been putting off going back to school due to indecision for a while now, but because of watching videos like these - and specifically yours, like the one on Ötzi - ive finally found something that makes me want to go to college. thank you for being the catalyst that showed me i want to pursue anthropology!
Thank you very much for watching and I'm glad to hear I've helped your interest in these subjects. I wish you all the best with your studies.
Thanks again Dan.
2:17 we aren’t depressed ; you’re voice reminds me of my father that’s why i fall asleep
Cheers thanks again for a interesting video
very good and enjoyable program concerning peoples of much interest to me, the Neolithic Farmer folk is my top interest and any/all cultures that stemmed from their migrations, as well as any remnant cultures from their day that comes down to us now as legend etc.
As a Minoan man I love ❤️ taking strolls around town always good twin peaks to look at 😮, women fashion 😮
Great video as usual Dan. I suspect the Minoans engaged in warfare as needed, though perhaps a powerful navy gave them an excellent first layer of defence. Maybe land warfare became just stagnant and ritualistic enough that when the Mycenaeans (or Sea People) came knocking, they weren’t up to the task of defending their island. Who knows.
Always quality. Can you do some on the Harappan civilization and other Indus River groups?
Thank you. Yes I plan to, have been reading about it.
Thoroughly enjoyable ❤
DNA of Minoan finds? I'd be interested.
Minoans had a mixture of G2, J2, and R1b haplogroups.
@@OrphicPolytheist Evidence? Not saying your wrong, I just like evidence.
Very well done and logical
I have been to mainland Greece but not Crete, looks like I will have to rectify that
Perfect timing! Was just watching some Troy clips
I do watch these to sleep sometimes. You caught me.
Thanks! The Most awesome content on UA-cam
Thank you very much, I appreciate it.
Just watched while substitute teaching a history class. I have notes & questions to research.... Back later
To build such a civilization you need order, for order you need control, for control you need force.
That's just within, let alone other societies wanting a piece of the pie.
As an American, I have to say that I think the interpretation of hunting as "elite class activity" is 100% a modern European view. 99% of hunters in modern day America would certainly not be considered "elites". I really think this is holding back archaeology in the region
Lol don't be ridiculous. Ordinary Europeans today hunt too. My own working class English mother grew up hunting with her dad for the table. Working class Frenchmen love hunting boar today. It's not about the modern world. In the ancient Aegean, the boar hunt was an elite activity.
"His grandfather Autolycus and his sons have helped Odysseus in achieving his honor as a boar slayer. This depiction of the mythic hunter and dangerous beast is a motif that spans the ancient Mediterranean world. Despite depictions ranging from the feeble hare to the ferocious lion in both literary accounts and artistic images across the Mediterranean, one that is often mentioned is the boar hunt. An act that spans across cultures, the wild boar is one of the most dangerous game to hunt in the ancient world. Needing courage, bravery and skill to hunt, the boar is a game that demands respect from the hunter. The Greeks knew this all too well, which shows in their inclusion of the boar in their myth as a dangerous animal that can only be pacified or slain by such great heroes as Heracles and Odysseus. Greek writers such as Xenophon have left writings on how to slay boars so that great kings of such cities as Sparta and Athens can display their grand polis’ wealth during the grand hunt." From Boar Hunting Symbolism from the Ancient Greeks to Romans by Cole Hollingsworth.
Will more of the Vampire Knight books be added to audible?? I just got to the end of the vampire heretic and theres a hole of emptiness now 😂 love you books
Great, well-researched video as always. I'm not very well versed in the military stuff, so it's alwsys good to learn something new. I didn’t realise that the peaceful Minoans myth was still considered reality by some. Btw, what’s the song playing in the background? Sounds great.
Thanks very much. There's about 12 songs in this I think, glad you like the music.
There used to be a phase where popular thinkers (not necessarily historians) would assume, that because a society was focused on commercial enterprise, they couldn't also have a military tradition.
It's especially prominent when talking about societies like Carthage because they ignore the contemporary sources saying that trade actually led to a rather deep military tradition due to how risky it is. Carthage also has the issue of being compared to Rome like how the Minoans are compared to the Myceneans and therefore "have" to be opposites.