Its cuz not everyone can afford HBO or wants HBO, verrry admirable
2 роки тому+373
Well, I even have HBO (Max) and I still watch in on YT, because that's where most of the stuff I watch is. It's great that the important part is here and that it can get to so many people.
My grandmother found out her grand parents had managed to obtain an Eaglehead dress when she was going through our family storage, she contacted a bunch of people about where it should be probably donated, the museums wanted to not only claim it and planned to put in storage , but were going to fine her for owning it. Keep in mind she was not trying to sell just send it where it should be, thankfully a native American Heritage association got ahold of her and had the legal power to defend their claim on it so it did not end up in a box in a bottom of a basement. It was really gorgoues. I wish I knew where it ended up only that it ended up with a heritage organizaiton.
That was likely a war trophy. The religious significance of a single eagle feather, let alone an entire war bonnet is too great for it to have been a gift, if genuine. And genuine ones are never sold or traded.
Damn Im white and it still blow my mind how we can still be sad fact only white people got some of their artefact returned from Denmark (im sure others small things got returned) as A dane who love vikings Im sad for people culture to be stolen
Fun fact about the Elgin Marbles: After the British Museum refused to return them on the grounds that Greece didn’t have a proper place to display them, they built the state of the art modern Acropolis Museum in Athens for the chief purpose of housing the Elgin Marbles. They still refuse to send them back. Also, when Lord Elgin was transporting the marbles to Britain, the ship they were on sank, and the marbles had to be salvaged from the ocean floor.
This is like a caricature. A thief pulling a sled of stolen goods that tips over and they hurriedly addresses the situation before their victims can catch them
Jesus Christ died for our sins, rose from the dead, and gives salvation to everyone who has faith in him. True faith in Jesus will have you bear good fruit and *drastically* change for the better! Those led by the Holy Spirit do not abide in wickedness. *God is ONE manifesting himself as THREE;* the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit! Bless him! *For these three are one.* As I am led by the Holy Spirit, nothing I state is a lie, but the truth of God. Anyone who tells you differently is misinformed or a liar. They do not know God, nor led by him. Anyone who *claims* to be a Christian and is against what I am doing, and where I am doing it; the Holy Spirit does not dwell within them, they lack understanding. They know not God, read his word, and their religion is in vain. Do not hear them, they will mislead you, the lost cannot guide the lost.
When you trust in God and cast your cares (worries, anxiety, depression, suicidal thoughts) upon him, they will be NO MORE! Know that there is power in the name Jesus Christ! His name casts out demons and heals! The world is wicked, evil, and of the devil. I too, was a wicked sinner of the world before I opened my heart to God. I am living proof of God's work and fruitfulness! He is an active God who hears the prayers of his! God's children are set apart (holy) and righteous. The devil is a liar that comes to steal, to kill, and to destroy; that includes your relationship with God.
One thing John didn't mention was how much more stolen art is hidden away in private collections. These people often have deeper pockets and less hesitation to acquiring art with a "dubious" ownership history.
Yep. That's how the Getty "museum" in California got its start. When I was studying Classics for my undergrad degree that place was discussed a lot because of all the artifacts and how they were acquired.
Sure, but each single private weirdo will not have anything like the collection that a single major museum like the British Museum has. It's much more practical to focus on the museums (at least for now) because they will naturally be responsive to legislation, whereas rich criminals will not. A single law could be passed & the problem of imperial loot in museums could be solved. That's not to say that we shouldn't go after those people as vigorously as possible & return their ill gotten loot to their proper homes... it's just a different problem which will be more complicated to solve.
I studied Native American Anthropology under a Cherokee professor, and one of the things she was involved with (a side hustle, you could say) was seeking to get stolen Native artifacts out of museum basements and back with the tribes. In one case, the museum was being stubborn that "you can't prove we stole this," so my professor tracked down the granddaughter of the woman who made the item (I think it was a ceremonial bead robe or shawl). This tribal elder explained the little tricks her grandmother used that literally no one could have known, things even the museum didn't notice until they inspected even closer, family trade secrets she still used and had taught to her own grandchildren. She made it more than abundantly clear, this belonged to her family. Back in the 1800s, her village was raided and her grandmother gangraped by White men. They ran off with anything they thought looked valuable. This included some of the young girls, livestock, head dresses, furs, and her beadwork outfits. So not only was it stolen, but in a really horrific manner. The museum had bought the majority of their Native American artifacts off a group of rapists. That was not the type of publicity they wanted, so they gave it back. This old lady wore her grandmother's robe at the next dance ceremony. All of this was around 20 years ago, so I hope her grandkids still wear that outfit at ceremonies.
@@placebojesus5652 "Blah blah history, blah blah both sides, blah blah blah coulda woulda shoulda, blah blah blah triggered. blah blah I'm in the power seat now, so all the back and forth before doesn't count cause the past was just a practice run, and history actually begins now with my culture on top." You're a clown and we all see you with your pants around your ankles, pretending. 😆 🤡😆🤡😆🤡😆🤡😆
@@placebojesus5652 "well we could have been worse" is a very bad excuse when talking about cultural - and actual - genocide tho also two wrongs don't make a right? yes it's horrible native americans killed some of your family, but that doesn't excuse theft, murder and gangrape and it isn't an excuse to not try to right the wrongs of the past. i mean both as a general rule. i don't think europeans are especially cruel or evil. just don't make excuses because you're uncomfortable with your ancestor's history.
One of the biggest problems with the "anyone can visit it" argument is that many of them are not meant to just be visited. Many of the idols of deities from Asian countries were stolen from active worship. They would absolutely be put back into worship the minute they were returned. Many Native dresses and artifacts are still used ceremonially. These are not "history" - they were in use in the modern day.
Another Argument, A Nigerian schoolkid learning about their country's history probably can't afford to do a Pan-european roadtrip to various museums with expensive entrance fees just to see the Benin Bronzes in their near entirety.
On top of cost there’s also visa issues. I’m not sure the situation for a Nigerian going to the UK, but it can often be very difficult for people from the Global South to even be approved for tourist visas to North America and Europe. I have a Brazilian friend who was denied a tourist visa to the US because despite being enrolled in university in Brazil, just by virtue of being a young unmarried man he was deemed to be a high risk for overstaying a visa. So even if you have the money to travel across the globe to see your country’s cultural treasures, you can still be denied a visa to even enter the country
Exactly. Although the opposite is true paradoxically ... in Italy in the Uffizi Gallery in Firenze the statue of David one admires outside is a copy, the real one, smaller is inside protected from the weather and believe me the Louvre ain't got nothing on Italian museums for tourist wait lines. The Egyptian collection in the Berlin museum to be fair goes on tour periodically ... hail Schlieimann looter of Troy. This is a digression from your very good point btw but I couldn't resist. To support your argument though, in the Toronto Museum there are several totem poles belonging the Haida which if returned would indeed be used as part of their culture of potlach and spirit animals.
your english is really bad or you can't make a point well. are they not history or WERE they in use? if they WERE in use as you said, then thats not being in use in the modern day. its like saying you used to use something then saying you use it every day. then why say used to? so same question to you, are you just not capable of speaking properly or do you not really have a point to make? either way id say your intellect is lacking to the extent that maybe you should just stfu and keep your ignorance to yourself.
This reminds me a lot of the Irish Giant Charles Byrne. He was 7' 7'' and he was so afraid of a collector or museum displaying his body when he died that he had his friends bury him at sea. Unfortunately, before his friends could follow through with their promise his corpse was stolen by a 'collector' and was eventually sold to the Royal College of Surgeons in London. It is still on display there over 200 years later despite efforts by activists for him to be buried. People with the same genetic condition as Byrne, who are from the same part of the country as him and probably share DNA have offered to donate their skeletons when they die so that Byrne can be released, but the museum has always refused.
To know that they would be so obsessive about 'collecting' him, he must have heard a bunch of super creepy comments about displaying his body while still alive.
@@zwenkwiel816 considering that it was a British man, not a Greek one, who carved out the bits of relief mentioned in the video, I’d say check yourself
Agreed rather wholeheartedly. Oh sure these bits of culture are nice to show off in museums, but we have the technology to now make highly detailed full 3d scans of the pieces and use those to make near flawless duplicates. I remember a field trip to the parthanon in Nashville in sixth grade. I. Fucking. LOVED it. I didn't care that it was all reproduction. I just loved that it was there and it was an attempt at bringing antiquity TO us in a way that was accessable. I mean. It wouldn't have had the sam effect to see a bit of this anda bitof that behind glass. Seeing a life sized recreation of the frescos and statues. To walk the length and bredth of a place and cast your mind's eye back. 'This was built.... without modern tools by a culture who had the will and knowledge to make it happen.... also a shitton of slaves ando r menials to do the grunt work.' I want more places like that. Less of the vandalism.
My daughter works at the National Museum of Scotland and worked hard to help a indigenous community from our home in Canada try to repatriate a memorial pole that was stolen from their community. She was disciplined for trying to help them. I’d love you to do a story about their struggle.
As a Canadian with an interest in museum work and my country's cultural heritage that is interesting. Thanks for sharing and good on her for trying to help
Thank you to your daughter for her efforts. This story got a fair bit of press here in Canada when the Nisga'a delegation visited the museum in August, but I assume the repatriation efforts have stalled since there have been no updates since then. Still, the fact that the museum was willing to meet and discuss the possible repatriation brings me some hope. The British Museum has another Nisga'a pole which they purchased from the same man (Marius Barbeau) who sold the pole in the National Museum of Scotland. They also have a Haida pole acquired from a different collector. Maybe Scotland can set an example that prompts the British Museum to return these two poles and other artifacts looted throughout history.
@@kestaa I very much hope The National Museum of Scotland can be a leader in reparations. It is a huge passion for my daughter. She hopes to complete her Archaeology degree.
My favorite thing I think I've ever seen in a museum is a totem pole carved by a local tribal artist. The museum used to have a looted totem pole, but they gave it back to the tribe and instead commissioned a new pole to be displayed in a section dedicated to the tribe's history and current goings-on.
I don’t know if this is where you had your experience, but I work at the Harvard Museums of Science & Culture, in Cambridge, MA, and we have that exact situation! The new totem pole has an adjoined video showing it’s creation. There are plenty of other original indigenous artifacts, but I’m at least happy that this was given back.
I used to work for the natural science museum in Houston and they did go through their exhibits and their archives and return Native American artifacts to the various nations they belonged to. Then they worked with native artists and commissioned replicas for display. I don't know why other museums can't do something similar.
Repatriation and inclusion of communities are rising themes in museums and it really seems that museums are starting to do similar things much more often.
@@seffishestopal5950 You people act like King Tut is still walking around to return his belongings to. Sending items back to their country of origin, or even thinking about just sending that country money as "reparations" isn't the answer here. You're rewarding people who didn't have anything to do with the artifacts to begin with.
@@tepidceranda3394 To people who didn't have anything to do with them? It's THEIR cultural heritage ffs. This is not about returning articats to individuals but to return them to their cultural homes so the indigenous people can enjoy their heritage. Jeez..
When I was in a museum in Cambodia, they had some empty glass cases describing an artifact that was in some other museum and when they asked for it back. Some of the cases did have items with labels when they asked for an item back and when they received it usually several years to a decade later. I think this public shaming is a clever idea and makes people more aware of the issue.
I think the stockades should make a societal comeback. If we can't penalize corporations for crimes then we should at least be able to throw 6$ genetically modified and glyphosate ridden tomatoes at their ceos, cfos, 23 vice presidents and board members. That'll be one long piece of wood. Too bad we have so few old growth forests left in existence.
"no one saw that man as significant" made me immediately cry. As a Hindu and Indian born in the US, this is a deeply painful subject, and John Oliver (as always) covered it so well. Thank you for advocating for cultures whose vocal cords have been ripped from them then called too stupid to speak up when it was happening.
@_TheGoddessinTraining_ who cares history has never been easy might makes right and thank God for the British....they stole nothing it was there's for the taking
HIs delivery was fantastic too, his facial expression, the camera zoom in, prefect execution of a very pointed question about when it's okay to put a human corpse on display for grade schoolers to gawk at or shoved in a box in a basement.
Holy shit, that sequence at the end with Kumail Nanjiani at the Payback Museum was amazing. That open question about how long someone can be dead for it to be okay to have a piece of their body is superb.
I'd say it's best to get the parts as fresh as possible. If the person is already important you might want to make sure to get to the body first. So the real question would be how long to hide it in the storage?
You know, whatever country you live in, we're all complacent victims. Art is the commodity of the Rich, and they think it's something to own another's culture for a lot of money. Am I going to get killed for saying this needs to be busted up? Art belongs to us all. You know, we stopped the Noozies from stealing everyone's Art, in a world war that one time. Are we back in the 1910s again?
I love how the quote "if we said yes to one you'd soon find the British museum empty" is literally just them going mask off and saying "we won't give any of it back because we want money"
@@mynamesnotadam nothing is ever technically free. The museum makes money somehow, otherwise it wouldn't stay open. There's got to be some sort of money incentive for them otherwise they wouldn't keep something that unnecessarily wastes funds.
@himarisuzuki5208 I'm no expert in its funding, but you can become a member and pay a membership, donate money, use its over priced cafe, some exhibitions charge I think. But it's main source I would be the goverment funding. Maybe. I don't do their finances. Either way a lot of museums are free and it's because they provide a function which is to educate and exhibit the story
I think it's about trust that artifacts will stay untouched and not in private hands. But obviously it doesn't make it ethical to limit access or even lending rights.
I had my best moment during my visit to the British Museum in one of its toilets, where I found written on one white brick: "I suppose you stole this marble too, eh?". Brilliant!
@John Capry Well, most of the museum's collection didn't impress me, the only other great thing I remember having a glimpse there was the Rosetta Stone - it was crowded around it.
@John Capry Aww, that's so sweet. Getting your feelings hurt on behalf of those poor colonizers. Surely, they would give you big hugs for defending their honor.
@John Capry I'm sure the imperialist overlords pay you well for your sniveling boot licking on their behalf. oh, your doing it for free? just a cretin, then. how sad.
That’s also why these museum will never return things, at least not on a scale that matters. These museums would go out of business if they returned all those artifacts, so they’ll never return them willingly.
Fun fact the word loot is a Hindi / Sanskrit (Indian language) word. So the British looted so much that they even took the word loot which the people cried when they were looting.
My mother inherited a piece of the Parthenon from her father that he brought home after WWll. I remember it being a doorstop growing up. She mailed it back to Greece about 15 years ago
This reminds me of an exhibition at the Nairobi National Museum. The place was empty except for placques stating what artifact should be there, which European museum has it and why the refuse to return it.
That's so sad... I think it's gonna take a long time to get to a point where most artifacts are returned to the place they were stolen from, but it's definitely worth it to keep trying. Those people deserve ownership of their own cultural heritage just as much as everyone else. It's a spit in the face to have to deal with this after colonialization as well... as if there was not enough harm done already. They really aren't even trying to do the bare minimum in order to set things right after they wronged so many (not just Britain ofc, but since they were the colonial overlords, they are definitely one of the biggest perpetrators here).
See if I was an “influencer” with money to jet around or set up a real life squid game I would be flying there to bring attention to that Or the sewage spills off the pacific coast that run 24/7 now
"The difference between archaeology and looting is 50 years." - one of my anthropology professors explaining the fucked up providence arguments of museums.
One of the most fun museums I've ever visited was filled with REPLICAS of famous sculptures, and the fact that they weren't originals truly didn't lessen the impact of the craftsmanship and artistic vision of the artist. I don't know why we can't do that with all the objects we've stolen from other countries. I'm sure that most people wouldn't be able to spot the difference even if they knew.
Or how about establishing a relationship with the country of origin to loan out artifacts to museums around the world where they can be appreciated by many more, and their owners are rightfully compensated for sharing their history?
Look up dinosaur skeletons and find out how much what you see has been replicated, also go to the shipwreck museum in key west and see how they replicate artifacts for show.
@@sircrapalot9954 Oliver addresses that near the end as a viable (and even likely) option many of these countries can take. The issue is most of these museums don’t simply want to display the treasures - they accumulate wealth by “owning” it and a loaning system prevents that.
There is a certain awe in seeing original pieces, but it should be the decision of the nation of origin. So much stuff was taken from 3rd world countries. I bet the extra revenue from loaning their historic artifacts would bring them closer to a modern world. And I'd be willing to spend extra to see an original piece, especially if I'm used to seeing the replica.
@@ascent8487 to apreciate the craftsmanship? replicas are better for disserning details since they are .. well not hundreds or thousands of years old. A replica is basically what the exhibited sculpture looked like when it was made. You can allow people to touch replicas or at least get mutch closer as they are not as valuable.
So many Nepalese deities are all over USA. The most important one is Taleju Bhagwan goddess, she graces Chicago museum right now. I am 30 years old and I have never seen the statue cause it was stolen decades ago and now the empty temple stands in heart Kathmandu waiting for the deity to return home. I spotted several of deities in Yale museum as well. It’s heartbreaking.
I met some members of the Lakota Nation a few years back. They told me that one of the leaders in the community, Mama Jules, was Crazy Horse's granddaughter, and that she had been trying for years to get his war jacket/vest back from the Smithsonian. The Smithsonian just kept delaying and giving bogus answers for why it could not be returned. All of these cases take on a greater level of frustration when you hear the personal stories of the folk the items were taken from.
First off, Mama Jules is a great name and I'm sure she's as awesome as she sounds. Secondly, imagine some institution is hanging on to your grandfathers coat for no good reason.
My favorite "argument" against doing the right thing is "well where do you draw the line, if we do this good thing, why not do MORE good things, well I never!" Always brings out the ancient rage and desperation in me...
And John had a great response to this in his Confederate statue video. "Anytime someone asks, 'Where does it stop?' The answer is always, 'Fucking somewhere!' You might let your kid have Twizzlers, but not inject black-tar heroin. You don't just go, 'Well, after the Twizzlers, where does it stop?'"
Its arguably not all always a good thing though. You can follow this train of thought to claim that turkey should hand over istanbul. Its full of ancient european artifacts and it was taken by force
As a Peruvian, I really appreciate this piece of journalism. I always read about provenance when I see Peruvian pieces in museums around the world. And I feel pain when I get the sense that the piece is original and from unclear provenance. E.g. lately, I saw just “privately funded.” Gosh, that could mean so many things. It was a beautiful silver chalice.
@@feenixgrrl It's also part of the mindset of the Captians of Industry. Andrew Carnegie famously said that the upper class should manage all the money for all people because they know best and what is best for the people who work for them . Entitled much? Same colonialism mindset. Wait here while I take your shit and while you're waiting could you clean up my house .
as a Peruvian you should just be happy you're not hunting tigers in the jungle right now. you're welcome for the internet, television, radio, cars, computers, cell phones and all the rest
I LIKED HOW YOU POSTED WHAT THE VIDEO SAID BUT IN A MUCH MORE GENERIC WAY!!!! I HOPE YOU GET ALL THE UPDOOTS YOU WANT! THATS WHY YOU POST GENERIC COMMENTS RIGHT?!? SO PEOPLE CLICK THUMBS UP AND YOU DONT FEEL LIKE A FAILURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My mum who is a chronic fox news watcher was still unsure after this and it only took a "imagine if the lady of lourdes statue of Mary was sawn off at the feet to be put on display in Kenya, how livid you and all of fox news would be" to get her to understand how not ok all of this is.
@@qwertyuiopzxcfgh I'd care about someone other than myself. But if I did I'd have to care about even more people in the future. Capitalism: Bad people do bad things, and when they are rich they pay people to tell everyone else it was for the good of all.
@@HighFiveTheHorizon Honestly, uncaringness and imperial atitudes aside, *some* of the removals for archiving may have even made sense at the time, but the situation *now* is more important than blame. Wherever the fault lies, the question is what can be done *now.* Even innocent motives originally, or dodging blame, doesn't have much to do with where something belongs *now.*
Someone once asked me how much time needs to pass before grave robbing becomes archaeology, and I immediately responded, "The amount of time it takes to ship it to the British Museum."
@@LeMayJoseph Why? If for example a grandpa to "Richard" had stolen a watch from your grandpa 50 years ago and then in 50 years your grandchildren knock on Richard's grandchildren's door and demand the watch to be returned to its "proper owner" that would be kind of ridiculous. if both the one the stole the stuff and the one that got their stuff stolen has long since passed its kinda dumb to argue over the ownership.
"I'm serious give me a number for how long after his death it's okay to have a part of someone's body sweating in your Museum's hot storage." Yeah this one hit me.
When Australian institutions contact British ones looking for stolen human remains, over half of the institutions refuse to even acknowledge if they have human remains or not, let alone return them. People's family members - some murdered, some the victim of grave robbing - just sitting in cupboards somewhere because of greedy arseholes. What makes it so frustrating is that if I stole some human remains from a British cemetary and put them on display somewhere, there would be outrage.
@@AndyFNQ84 Australia's a good example of why the "they won't take care of them" argument is so ridiculous. Are they really saying Australia's not capable of caring for artifacts? Now whether Australian museums are going to do the right thing with them when they get them, or just continue doing what the British ones are doing is a whole other question, but there's really no question stolen artifacts from countries like Australia, Canada, NZ etc should be returned is there!
@@laneswitched9370 Oh cool! I've always thought the skull of Lincoln & Washington would make good collectors pieces. Do you know if they're still in their graves or if they've already been dug up & it's another collector I'd need to buy them off? If I can't get them, Jackson would be a good one too, I'm thinking his is probably a cheaper purchase - that will let me set soem money aside to buy JFK's skull in 15 years time, when it joins the "available to collectors" list :)) Actually even better than JFK's skull, how about a few of his manhood bones & I can buy Marilyn Monroe's pelvis bone as well & display JFK inside her :)
@@ArashiKageTaro That's likely because they don't see themselves as connected to the crimes of their predecessors. That seems to be a common theme in all these cases of historical wrongs displayed as 'history' by the perpetrators' descendants.
@R J Meeks To be fair, I can't really blame them - if some random person knocked on my front door and said "Hey, your dining room table was stolen from us by your great-great-great-grandfather, we want it back", I would hesitate for... more than a few seconds, let's say that. Of course, these aren't just random people.
A number of years ago, our family visited the British Museum. While we were looking at the Rosetta Stone, my young son asked a guard, "Did you guys steal all this stuff?" The guard's reply was, "Well. I suppose we did."
Locals stole the contents of gravechambers and sold them. Locals didn't give a crap about the historical significance. Brits discovered ancient artefacts and collected them for science and archeology and to educate the public.
The guard didnt know. The Rosetta Stone was found by a French Soldier when Napoleon had invaded Egypt. Very few people, including the local Egyptians, would have recognized what it was. It is astonishly valuable because it had a proclamation in Egyptian hieroglyphics and also in ancient Greek. The French scholar Champillion painstakingly worked out what the hieroglyphics meant. Britain received the stone as part of a treaty.
@@granthurlburt4062 it was also used as part of wall if that solder though that he should leave it there, we would still have no clue, how to translate hieroglyphics
Greek person here: our conservation methods are actually very advanced. I attended a seminar a few years ago where a specialist actually went into detail about the methods they use to conserve and preserve the marbles. A lot of time and effort is put into researching the best ways to care for our artefacts, something that can’t be said for the British museum.
@@ILoveGrilledCheese do you mean the Acropolis? No one can walk into the Parthenon. Plus a lot of the original art is in the Acropolis Museum not outside.
@@ILoveGrilledCheese people *cant* walk right into the Parthenon. I was there this summer, and they take very good care of the ancient structures as well as artifacts
@@ILoveGrilledCheese You must be confused. You can't walk right into the Parthenon it is heavily guarded and any desegregation is very much punishable and enforced
From the british perspective, and those of other countries with stolen artifacts, the way forward ought to be fairly simple. Create replicas of each artifact to keep in your own museum, and return the originals to the countries they were stolen from.
often times they were not stolen from countries. and often times those countries cannot be trusted to take care of them. the middle east has a history of destroying artifact from antiquity because they are pagan. i think it would be best to have artifacts held by those that would take care of them
Clearly that man never understood Solomon’s story there. Solomon wasn’t saying whoever loves the baby more gets the baby, he was figuring out the true owner of it and giving it back!
And his hypothesis was that the real owner would be the one who loved it most, to the point of rather giving it up willingly than let it be put to death
You have no idea how many museums and artifacts have ended up returned because of this episode. It's so amazing what someone with a platform can actually do just by telling a true story.
In 1988, as a Belgian teenager, I visited the British Museum. I was shocked when I saw parts of temples and large statues that were sawn in blocks and have been moved to Great Britain. I asked the attendant if this wasn't all stolen from the countries where it came from and I'll never forget the answer : "I can't answer that question, I would be out of a job".
given that was only 20 years after the dissolution of "Belgisch-Kongo", that must've hit a bit hard home for ya :P but yeah kinda shocking how much of the really messed up things people still considered "business as usual" until really recently while we all think it's been like hundreds of years ago... related "fun" fact i learned (as a german): germany technically still holds territory in cuba nowadays. granted we didn't steal _that_ bit, castro just gave it to the DDR (and then during the reunification we all forgot it existed, and then a few years ago everyone just decided it was "only gifted symbolically"), but... yeah, so much for ancient colonial times :P
Thank you John so much the Benin Bronzes are my heritage and it breaks my heart when seeing them various museums all scrambled after being ripped from their home. I sent this to my father who has been fighting to bring them back and this spotlight made him so happy that there’s more attention on this. As a first generation African American, I want to know my history my home and thank you for doing something that might get that history back ❤
Such a travesty for the British not to return the records of your cultural history as it holds a deep meaning to your people; shameful arrogance to feel entitled to what is not theirs to keep.
I am very glad, that there is a movement starting in the West to repatriate these artifacts. I wish I could say the same for the 60,000 artifacts Japan stole from Korea and dared call some Koreans thieves when they forcibly repatriated 2 buddhist statues in 2012 and 2014. (Hell, even the Kizaemon Ido, officially hailed as a national treasure was a 1500s stolen Korean artifact... of a peasant bowl because Japan couldn't even make a peasant bowl, so engrossed in samurais imposing 75% tax rates to raise militaries to kill each other) And even said this "theft" is why they can't return the remaining 60,000 to Korea. Well if they were going to return it, they would have done so centuries ago, and should not have even stolen it in the first place. This is like calling the police the "thieves" when said police was just apprehending the real thief and forcibly returning his loot to the rightful owners.
I quite like what the swedish etnographical museum did. They had a totempole that had been purchased from native americans in the early 1900's and brought to Sweden. When the tribe wanted it back, they returned it in exchange for a newly made pole by the tribe. So not only did the tribe get their totempole back, the tradition of making them were kept alive and the swedish museum still had an excibit. Can add that the Kitlope people then decided that the totempole should return to moder earth and buried it to molder.
@@Royalname31 Swede here: We have a lot of fucked up ahit in our museums, several Sámi artifacts, pictures of naked sámis (they were forced) as part of "racial" studies and so much more. Whilst our country is alright, we aren't saints.
In general museums would get way more out of just loaning things out to each other because when you do that instead of stealing you actually get all of the relevant context as well. If the Benin Bronzes were returned to Nigeria then Nigerian scholars would probably be able to study them much better than someone in the UK just due to having more local knowledge and speaking the local language and then perhaps loan them back with some actual explanation of what they mean.
It was theirs to let molder to be fair. All this "who loves the baby more" stuff is really ridiculous. These things aren't babies, they aren't alive and don't have an intrinsic right to care. What people do with their own stuff does not legitimise you stealing it because you take better care of it.
@Royalname31 On the other hand Sweden has exact same problem as discussed in the video. Hundreds of stolen artwork from Prague including the priceless Codex gigas are still in Sweden’s possession with no chance of retribution
I like the idea of museums returning original objects, but also displaying reproductions. I like even better the idea of having craftspeople in the originating countries create reproductions for museums. That way it supports the continuation of the original crafts, and improves understanding of the cultural significance of the objects. But only if the craftspeople are decently paid for their work, which should go on display, not be kept in a box in storage.
there definitely need to be a industry of art reproductions, as well as international repatriation "agency" to link up with the originals and facilitate sharing and other stuff
@@PrograError I promise you, from the bottom of my heart, art reproductions of almost every type are available, particularly without the artist's consent
This sounds so condescending. Artefacts created in the past, of which the context where in they were created isn't possible to recreate, should be returned to their original people, period. They shouldn't need to do all these other things you want them to do. Go recreate your own historical artefacts if you think it's so important.
I love that you did this episode! I am an art historian and always had my intro students debate this issue at several touch points in the survey course. It was always great to watch them wrestle with the complicated history of museums and come to terms with the art trade and the social function of museums. I'm glad it is getting much broader attention.
How do you deal with the dishonesty of the topic to label all non-European artifacts in western museums as stolen? Some of the artifact might have been in fact looted, but it was done in a time, before that was a moral issue and done by everyone. Also the contemporary people demanding them back do it mostly for their own nationalist ego and because of the monetary value they present today. This isn't a debate about justice or historic fairness, its simply a fight over pride and wealth.
@@roberthartburg266 Well, arguments like this would come up from some students. The exercise wasn't about solving the problem and reaching world peace as much as it was getting students to think critically about the problem. We tackled a lot of issues at the intersection of art, history, politics, culture, economics, etc., such as whether to reconstruct the Bamiyan Buddhas. Moral relativism like "they didn't know any better back then" merely tries to brush historic wrongs under the rug rather than dealing with them. It's complex and messy, but needs to be wrestled with.
@@roberthartburg266 never in human history was it ok to steal. Any righteous mind wouldve done the right thing and given the items back. These people are literally playing with fire by thinking they can ignore justice smh
@@roberthartburg266 yes but if you're denigrating a country for not being able to provide secure storage of historical artifacts because of their poverty while making money off of their artifacts, it's like we'll then just pay me for the shi
They already do. Take for example the Sutton hoo helmet. There is a reproduction to show what it originally looked like, many people assume it is the original. The original was in pieces and incomplete when it was first discovered.
Another subject that pains me about this: Museums store a lot of artifact without studying them. For example, there are thousands of Assyrian tablets stored within museums that have never even been translated, leaving a lot of potential data out of study. If you don't study it nor display it, why should we keep it? Thanks to John Oliver and his team for talking about this issue. Cool episode! :)
I used to volunteer at a natural history museum with one of the biggest collection in the world and this is so shockingly true. Whenever i went to storage (which was in a building connected to the building where the actual museum was) they sometimes reminded me that this was just a 'small part' of the collection and that a big part was in a storage fascility x amount of km away outside of the city. The museum just doesn't have the man power to get trough studying all of their artifacts. They started digitalising their entire collection and it's a progress that is said to take over 10 years for the entomology collection alone. This just speaks to how science is treated nowadays by the state as it is of less importance to leaders to study dead animals and ancient artifacts and subsequently they underfund their institutions, aswell as it's a testiment to how we as a human race tend to over collect anything with a perceived value.
Yea I used to work in the museum world. They would rather make money off patrons and rich donors than hire historians and pay them a living wage to translate and restore artifacts.
Thats not the fault of the museums tho. I have friends in the field and work with Assyriologists and they are maniacs when it comes to translating all the unstudied material. Its just that there is so much and they are so few, as well as there not being enough funds to study all thats left unstudied. And when I say not enough funds I mean it: most of them work unpaid and in their free time because there is no money. This is (largely) not the museums fault either. So if you want to blame someone, blame the gouvernment for not allocating enough resources or funding only flashy but ultimately scientifically very limitied projects.
Why don’t they say, “We are going to return the everything to their rightful country of origin and maintain a collection of carefully crafted replicas to replace them, each paying homage to the original and the story of its return as part of the museum.”That would still allow the collection to inspire, and put them back in their rightful place. You could even document the replication as an art form of paying respect.
I’m going to answer my question by saying…. Money…. That’s why. All of those items hold huge value to the countries who own them… and they won’t let them go.
Not at all a bad idea. I want to add that in some cultures certain objects deemed sacred are not supposed to be displayed, photographed or replicated. But yes repatriation, the return of those objects, should always be the practice.
@@Justin_Leahy I get that but we aren’t talking dinosaur bones here. No one is going to make a replica of a 1000 year old book. Look what happened in Syria during the uprising. So many sculptures and artifacts were destroyed by isis from the old ages that we will never get to see again. Some countries can’t take care of these things. I’m against these museums but I understand the need sometimes.
I do wish they had touched on the problem of returning artifacts and antiquities to nation with active Islamic Fundamentalist groups destroying any and all non-Muslim artifacts. They claim they are "false idols". Should we return things from museums to countries where radicals in their population are actively destroying those things?
It is absolutely a crime to plunder societies. I have been following you for decades now, and I feel like you are speaking my thoughts on every topic you address. I can also appreciate your sense of humor, or since you're British humour!
The Acropolis Museum is absolutely gorgeous and my first contact with the issues mentioned on this video. They have the Caryatides, which are female statues that adorned one of the temples at the Acropolis (Athena I think). And they display their four statues with a gap. The gap represents the fifth statue which is, surprise, at the British Museum. The museum guide told me they have the gap representing the fifth statue's place for when she is returned home. That always stuck with me and I found it so beautiful and sad. Thanks, John, for covering this!
i think also in another museum in athens, there’s 8 statues of the muses. but there’s 9. guess where kalliope is. and the 8 muses in athens are put in a line with a missing spot for kalliope to return to her sisters. she’s all alone in the british museum
@@thanesgames9685 so why do you even care? Just go out in real life, deal with real problems and give us our ''rocks''. That's a problem solved my ignorant friend.
I was also at the Acropolis Museum (one of the best museums I've ever been to) recently and I remember that there were straight up entire relief sculptures missing, nearly all of them were either destroyed by Christians or cut straight from the marble block and taken to the British Museum.
@@thanesgames9685 I find it insulting to assume that they can't feel bad for a stolen artifact and for current living people's misfortunes, you can be empathetic and feel bad towards multiple things. Also they don't feel bad for the nonsentient rock but for the PEOPLE AND CULTURE it was STOLEN from and the museum's complete unwillingness to give back those STOLEN artifacts. But you know, criticize someone for making a comment related to this video's topic and assume they don't at all feel bad for other people's situations happening around the world without knowing much about the person. They could just as easily be doing more than you but the idea didn't cross your mind and even if that's not the case and you do do more, you were still an ass to them.
I went to a museum and saw the tiniest piece of a relief sculpture surrounded by an entire scene of replacement plaster. I always wondered how they could possibly tell what the rest of piece looked like, thinking this was the only surviving remnant. Now it makes sense.
One more infuriating thing about the "well it's on display and anyone can visit it" argument is that a lot of the artifacts were stolen from poor countries, where a trip to the UK can be prohibitively expensive. Where I am from it would cost roughly one third to one half of the median annual salary for a 1 week trip to the UK, and according to Google there are more than 100k artifacts from my country in UK museums. So the average person will likely never afford to go see them.
They mostly make the "Can't take care of it themselves" excuse with countries with a majority of people of color. 'cause gotta be racist on top of it. They aren't going to do that with France. Although doing it with Greece is a pretty bold move.
Still better that some people can see it and experts can study it than noone. Tell me what happened to Palmyra again? Or to Mosul museum and library? Tell me why most of the graves in Egypt are found empty? What happened to the thing from the graves when found by locals?
@@risharehraje793 You're comparing ancient crimes to modern looting. Not to mention, a lot of museums who want their artifacts back would gladly lend them out for study from experts. So, what about all the shit just sitting in storage getting dusty with no one looking at them or even knowing it's down there. I can't count the number of times museums have lost artifacts in their own storage only to be rediscovered decades later because no one gave a damn to look for them in the first place. But we get it, you fully believe museums are good and blah blah. Bet you complain when Confederate statues are taken down
I love that the whole point of the Solomon story is that when you truly love something you are willing to let it go to make sure it isn't harmed in the conflict of ownership. Meanwhile the British museum was very literally willing to hack the "baby" in half to get to keep a part of it. Like this is the absolutely worst story to make your case!
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I have seen the marbles in Greece and the matching parts in the British Museum. There is no reason that the British Museum cannot make duplicates and return the originals.
A museum in my home town has plaster casts of the Elgin marbles. It was only in the last several years that I learned something about how little museums got many plaster casts--in many cases, the source was a museum that had started out with casts, but got their hands on the real thing, and no longer wanted the copies. I don't recall the details, but looting is ultimately responsible for many small museums getting quality copies. Which makes me wonder--instead of getting involved with thieves, why aren't museums choosing to obtain quality copies, and leaving the originals where it belongs? It seems to me that the museums would save an awful lot of money by doing that, and avoid immoral dealings with crooks. Why not take those stolen artifacts, make good copies, and return them to where they were stolen from? Though plaster copies normally only reproduce the shapes, they could be made to match the colors, too, where that makes a difference. Of course, things like the Elgin marbles weren't originally plain stone, and the scrubbing they got destroyed a huge amount of information--they were originally painted--so we don't know exactly what they should look like anymore.
@@TheEudaemonicPlague I would expect it has to do with their business model; the only thing museums are selling is the premise of the "real thing", presumably old or even ancient. Replacing them with replicas entirely puts them firmly in the educational category, and people are just not paying for that.
@@Lodinn this is 100% not the case. Museums offer curation. They offer context, they offer relationships, they offer interpretations, they offer a whole lot more than just "the real thing". It's not so common to see copies of paintings in museums, but it could become the norm, just like it is really common to see replicas of fossils.
My hometown of Dresden is currently negotiating returning Benin Bronzes to Nigeria. Compared to the global stage, we are a small city and need the tourism - and yet, the Bronzes will be going home to Nigeria within the next year. If an unknown Eastern German town can deal with giving the Bronzes away, I'm sure the British Museum can handle a little morality.
calling Dresden an "unknown small city" is doing it a bit of a disservice, honestly. HOWEVER, that still means that the bronzes should be returned. Dresden has more than enough of it´s own local historic artwork and architecture to not need to rely on looted artifacts for tourism.
My town is on a reservation in WY, and we have a large Arapahoe and Shohone community here. They deserve to have those items back in their possession. That segment hits home.
There are items belonging to a direct ancestor of mine in a museum in Virginia. I'm named after him. It's shitty - even if it doesn't go to me, it should belong to at least one of the branches of his family, or in the possession of the Muscogee tribe.
@@singletona082 and if they got these relicks back how long would they last how long would people care bout it . non vs thousands of visitors going home thinking bout it .
When I was a preteen, my hometown museum hosted a British Museum exhibit. It was deeply moving to witness room after room of stunning artifacts… and then I came to a huge wooden Buddha head, the plaque of which indicated that it had been removed from a statue. Somewhere out there was a headless statue, hundreds of years old and of great spiritual significance to any number of people. Who decided they could do without it? In that awful moment I realized many of the items around me had been stolen in one way or another. I’m of Greek descent so I should have known this from the start. I finished my tour of the exhibit with horrified eyes. John Oliver and team have done an excellent job once again. Love the closing skit. F U, ongoing colonialism!
The solomon's law guy is actually pretty funny. If an arbiter came in and said they will split the artifact in half and give one to the museum and one to the country the artifact rightfully belongs to, the museum would happily agree while the country would protest vehemently.
Yes! And most of these dictators crying foul about their "history" would turn around and sell those objects to the highest bidder regardless of their ability to care for the objects. These objects were considered trash until the British carefully restored and collected them.
I remember reading an article about a reservation whose totem pole was taken; like it was there and then one day it suddenly wasn't. When one of the kids grew up, they saw it in a museum along with like, a blanket their aunt made, and went to touch it (the totem pole) like they always did as a child and were told they couldn't. And they were like "...but that's my family's..." It's really messed up how much stuff is in museums because of looting. I'm all for museums sharing stuff around so that more people can see the stuff, but not for museums to completely take the heritage of other countries so that they don't even have their own anymore. And especially the stuff that isn't even on display should be returned to the rightful owners. I mean, isn't that what replicas are for? So the original stays where it belongs and other countries/museums can display replicas instead unless there's a traveling exhibit
well museums are basically our show-off placec of the items we stole from others. Small items are in themed, local museums, paintings are in art gallieries, but museums are for the things that were misplaced from their origin. Cameron was correct by saying they would be empty if the stolen loot was gave out. It's sad reality. The real qeuestion is... whe tf dont we replace originals with well made copies and give the originals back? Seriously, we need profesionals even scientists to determine if something is real and not fake, why not display only fakes of things that do not belong to you? what is the downside?
In the spirit of absolute fairness (though not excusing this example), the museum could have been simply carrying on a common policy regarding artifacts in their collections. I'm sure you know about 'finger oils', for lack of a better term, which, over time, can very effectively destroy paint, varnish, and other things that have been applied to objects, and also degrade the surface of organic materials like wood. Even though this mainly applies to paintings, if there was paint on the totem pole (or even if there wasn't), I can see a museum attendee not wanting it to be touched by anyone.
@@abercrombieblovs2042 Absolutely true, I agree. However, (and this isn't a rant at you just a spring board for my own thoughts around this😂🙌🏻) wouldn't it be 'absolutely fair' to let each country/culture practice preserving the artefacts of their own culture however they deem fit? The point is it's rightfully theirs and it was stolen. If the owners want to use it for its original use until paint wears off that's their prerogative (just like the sacred statue from Nepal) - because it's rightfully theirs. At the end of the day this is as a result of the age old Western habit fetishising anything exotic simply because they are 'exotic.' I can't think of any other word to describe the practice (and the fact that it's still ongoing) other than pure human GREED. I think humans often put way too much value into objects to be honest - but there is no denying their importance to history and history tells us about ourselves and where we came from which is incredibly significant at a generational level. So everyone should get the chance to do it their way and every country should be allowed to benefit from their OWN history. I mean I couldn't stop thinking about how much money these museums have made just off of the tourism attracted by these objects- a lot of the countries they stole from could have been benefiting economically from these themselves. And all the stuff in storage?? I can't believe the hoarding mentality is worth more to hold onto than letting a culture thrive off of heritage they have never had the privilege to lay their eyes on. Imagine how many tribes around the world have completely lost practices they don't even know about that are sitting being 'represented' in the dark.
er, chances are a native aboriginal was the one who took the items and then sold them... it's actually very common. Not that it makes the purchase okay but... maybe thin that blame a bit and make sure half goes right back to the ones who sold their own heritage.
@@jaspermartin7444 Oh yeah that's probably true as well. I wonder what that ratio would be...Stolen:Sold items? Perhaps the lack of legitimate provenance on most of these items would make the truth difficult to find.
Seeing those Eastern Shoshone and Northern Arapaho people looking at their history that has been locked away in a basement is one of the saddest things I've seen in a long time.
Isn't it kind of odd they don't have those thing themselves though? Those items are literally things their not so distant ancestors owned. Why don't they have a plethora of them?
@@princesstriceestar No one alive in any of those countries have any real connection to those artifacts. They just want them back so they can make money off of them. If they were worthless no one would give a rats ass.
I love John Oliver and I love this piece in particular. I worked on a Masters in Anthropology focused on curator mentalities around ownership of African artefacts and human remains stored in European museums, from a university in South Africa (I’m American-born but wanted to work from the other side of the conversation). One thing Oliver doesn’t really touch on here that could be a fascinating follow-up is the effect of animism and traditional beliefs on ownership concerns over “artefacts” in museum collections. One of my professors explained to me that, given animism, many objects on display in the North are viewed by communities in the South as having living souls. These are living, feeling prisoners of long-ago wars locked in glass cases or stored on industrial shelving. Others are, like the Benin Bronzes, spiritual objects related to cultural identity but kept so far from their communities that they cannot serve their purpose. That’s before you even get to actual physical human remains, which Oliver briefly touches on here without really getting into the scope of how many human bodies are stored at Northern institutions (both museums and, terrifyingly, universities). One national collection in Europe has literally thousands of skulls removed from what is now Rwanda for study, all to “prove” African skull sizes were smaller and thus that African people were less intelligent. Human remains that ought to be respectfully interred in their home soil kept in a museum ethnography collection to bolster outdated, harmful, willfully ignorant racist ideologies. There are repatriation efforts underway in this case, but they keep encountering delays. And that is merely 1 further example beyond the excellent reporting already in this piece. This is such a mess. Northern countries with a colonial past should not be leading these conversations or setting the pace. The countries and communities of origin should have that power. Repatriation moves much more quickly with public visibility. Don’t let up on the pressure!! We can effect change if we simply act.
As someone from Mexico who knows there's a _shitload_ of Prehispanic artifacts scattered around the world, it makes me happy John Oliver talked about this topic. Hopefully we'll see the day when each historical relic is placed back in their place of origin and kept safely for the years to come. Alas, I might be too optimistic.
i recently learned that my dad was partially taino (a peaceful tribe indigenous to the Caribbean that forcibly integrated with slaves and colonists because they were hunted out of their homes and enslaved) and that there is fortunately a taino tribe in Boriken (also known by its colonist name Puerto Rico) that is fighting for government recognition and keeping the language alive. recently an auction house in europe called Christie auctioned off ancestor spirit homes (zemis) for millions, calling these zemi's and cooking utensils "exotic artifacts of an extinct peoples" meanwhile the tribe was fighting to get them returned. they ended up selling almost half of it to private collectors and put the rest in storage and said that the these personal incredibly sacred pieces were "gifts" and given in "good faith".
To be fair a lot more culture was lost through the Benin's royal family's enslavement of other africans for the market in the Americas. Not an excuse for Britian stealing from them though
which honestly a) doesn't make that much sense. I mean the Great Britain has a long history in itself? I'm sure there are countless priceless artifacts from British history. and b) I'm also sure they already do exchanges with other museums (since many museums do). so they could still do these kind of exhibitions, just not a continuous ones. (also, I would imagine that if other countries (or more specifically the museums etc. in those) gained more trust (due to the European/US museums returning ancient pieces), there would probably dozens of artifacts that they could still keep on display)
@@xxxaragon Well grass is greener on the other side, artifacts of other cultures forcibly taken from their land holds more value that the older version of stuff that they already have.
One of the best programmes you ever presented John, amongst a very selective lot. Thank you ! As an art lover, this is really food for thought and could almost turn ones perceptions of art galleries and museums on its head. The truth it seems is never pleasant but it is essential for us to remain human.
Thank you for covering this. Here in Greece the marbles are called the Parthenon marbles, because they are part of the Parthenon, while in Britain they call them Elgin marbles, because they think they are part of Lord Elgin.
I, too, would like to see them go back to Athens. Religious buildings should not be dismantled piecemeal for the aesthetics of foreigners, even if hardly anyone practices the specific religion anymore. It's just not right.
The Stonehenge reveal was great. Really sold the point. So many of the art weasels in this piece could have their attitude summarized by the comment, "Yes, but then WE wouldn't have it anymore." So much of their PERSONAL and institutional prestige comes from having that thing, being in charge of that thing and boast about that thing. Their resumes and books will credit them and associate them with the thing. But I can almost guarantee another issue, finance. A lot of those museums will include those objects in their valuation, and for funding. The material value of the collection is part of what helps them get the money to keep acquiring and preserving MORE stuff. Governments don't want to pay for them, many are expected to fend for themselves. They are NOT going to want to give that stuff up, and pride, greed and fear will all play a part in that. John mentioned a really good example of a solution. Dig the stuff out of basement vaults, repatriate the stuff to its native country via a contracted loan to a tour. That tour allows MANY museums to sell tickets, draw customers and let a lot of people see and learn about the artifacts and their history. But that tour can be under the charge of the museum of the country the artifact will eventually be returned to, with a large amount of the revenue being dedicated to permanent facilities for the artifact's preservation and security IN ITS HOME COUNTRY. The stuff is put on track to get home, while museums gain a publicity boost and ticket sales from a long series of tours, which helps pay for the restoration and permanent display of the artifact. That seems like the start of a win/win deal, anyway.
As a Mexican, I would have liked to see the case of Moctezuma's headpiece at least mentioned... It's in Austria, and when asked to give it back, they always give the same response: "you cannot guarantee it will be safely transported and kept". Seems like it is the ultimate answer all museums can think about!!!
That's such a bad excuse too....If Austria is so concerned about transportation and preservation then they should make sure it is safely transported and perhaps give resources to ensure it's "kept "well.
more important than that are the codices detailing our pre columbian history. not only was our language, culture taken from us but the history of our people. though we be mixed peoples we are still native american.
You don't get to demand something that you were warned was an expensive liability, then demand the other guy foot the bill bc it turns out you can't. If you REALLY care about it, you'll leave it where it is until you're ready.
Well, they can't really guarantee that the Museum in Austria isn't ever going to be hit by a natural disaster or terrorist attack or just fire. In all honestly: any curator or restaurateur of such pieces would probably get a minor panic attack at the thought of 'their' beloved baby being taken away an on a dangerous journey to some far-away place where nobody knows about their dietary needs ... ahem, the perfect storage conditions (light, temperature, humidity ...). The problem is: 1 - It's not like museums wouldn't still transport pieces between each other for exhibitions, and if Austrian experts really has doubts about the expertise in, say, the Mexico City National Museum of Anthropology, then they can simply collaborate and send their own technicians along as advisors. 2 - more importantly: it's not "their" baby. Yes, it probably feels like it when you've been responsible for it for years, but it's not. In the end, returning it is the only ethical course of action. Just create a super-duper copy, exhibit that with a plaque that the original is now in Somewhere else, Mexico, because we decided to do the right thing. (Possibly after trying everything else.)
I lived near the British Museum in the 80s, almost every time I walked by there was some protest outside and they were all different as far as I could tell. I went back to London in the early 2000s and still there were protesters out front. It's not a secret, I heard the exact same stories from the protesters as on your show tonight. It's the accepted practice. How many traces of colonial times are there still in modern society?
I'm an archaeologist and this issue is heavily discussed amongst ourselves, in favor of repatriation and respect, (at least here in Sweden, though this problem is still present at our museums) and is one of the first things students are asked to discussed. The issue is so bad, I'd like to give an example. Last year my university was involved in a archaeological project (in collaboration with the local archaeologists) in southern Portugal in the mountain region of Monchique (our project was focused on identifying artifacts which may be evidence for a working theory about late stone age trading and interconnection). A lot has to do with tourism. The entire region is basically a giant necropolis, featuring burials and sites dating back to the stone age and later. The sites we excavated were actually revealed after the forest fires in 2019. Even then the site we worked on turned out to have been looted, several times, over time, possibly starting with the Romans 2 millennia ago, The local archaeologists also try and identify potential sites by asking the locals about what they have seen. The thing is that the locals are very hesitant, with good cause, about even mentioning anything because they fear that anything of value will be excavated and shipped off to Faro institutions (about 100km away) never to be seen again - which has definitely happened before. The region is relatively poor to the rest of Portugal, and if anyone should be making money off of tourism based archaeology it should be the locals. If rich white tourists want to gawk at least they should patronize the local economy, not another city with an international airport. Despite the appalling nature and the consensus between archaeologists (in favor of respectfully preserving archaeology at their origin), at higher levels of decision-making (often political) regarding the fate of these artifacts, the amount of money that rich douchebags offer for plunder makes it difficult for locals to dissuade these sort of actions because most of the time it's other locals that are driven by financial gain they must contend with. Some countries are better at handling this, for instance, in Italy, archaeological sites are always accompanied by a special police that search all those involved in a project at the end of each day. I don't know exactly how effective it is, but at least it's something. Ultimately it all falls on the people with lots of money putting on the demand. Large western museums are some of the largest actors in this because their financial security is predicated on having streams of new content to attract visitors. Of course, fueling it further, there is the antiquities trade alongside it - like other "fine" arts this is just a means to launder money. Money, money, cash monies. If people in our time are willing to kill, enslave and sell other people for money, then its safe to assume that nothing is safe from money. This issue is one of the many appalling symptoms of the global culture of greed and callous disrespect of cultures.
Thank you, I agree, and I am very happy to hear this is a central issue discussed among the students. It is complicated and the world we live in is sadly very driven by short term thinking and greed. But the more relevant and mainstream an issue becomes the more likely it is to be given importance and finally solved.
Several municipalities in that area have museums. All municipalities actually have at least one: the traditional Museu Municipal. Those people you talk probably never went into one. Knowing some Monchiquenses, they are probably afraid you're taking something they could sell themselves.
Talks of repatriation and better communication with indigenous tribes are becoming more common in the US, at least where I went to school. There's still a lot of room for improvement, obviously, but I think we're starting to get better. We try to have as much tribal input on every project we undertake, but it can still be a struggle.
The part I find most upsetting is that in American schools (unsure about European education), Africa’s history is constantly overlooked as though they lacked culture and society. Often as a way to excuse and justify colonialism and slavery. But the culture and societal history was either stolen or destroyed throughout the continent.
I feel so lucky that while i was in high school i took the elective called AFRICAN EXPERIENCE. Which i think is pretty progressive for the sometimes backward Pennsylvania
That version of the history of colonised African states was by design. Colonialists justified their land grab by saying that there was no "civilisation" evident and the people were "savages". So tearing down the cities, universities, castles and churches was systematic, then they simply wrote the history books. Always question history books, always ask who wrote them. By the way, Ethiopia is one country that managed to retain it's cultural heritage. When you visit there, you'll understand just how much the world has lost because of the greed of the Europeans.
@janellimarie, Why single out African history? How much South American history did you learn in high school? How much Russian history? Mexican? Canadian? You basically learn *U.S. history* in grade school, and only enough of other countries as it pertains to U.S. history.
@@leavingitblank9363hi South African here (proud BRICS supporter) we actually learn about this in grade 10 history and we go into great detail about Russia and China and Vietnam and Cuba in grade 11 and about native American and Indigenous Nordic and Australian people Edit: we learn the history of our allies and beyond almost none of which pertaining to South Africa as we learn almost all of South African history from grade 3 to 9 leaving us with room to learn about other countries. Also the word elective implies that the Original Commenter was in Uni when they learned that. And isn't America suffering with education gaps
@@firstnamelastname153 First, the OC didn't use the term "elective"-- that was the first responder to the OC. (Maybe that's what you're calling the OC. Regardless...) The OC mentioned "...in American schools (unsure about European education)...." I responded to the OP, not the first comment, which is why my comment referred to U.S. schools. Second, grade school students in the U.S. have elective options. Besides, she mentioned "when I was in high school". So, not uni. (I have to wonder how you manage to study "in great detail" the culture and history of at least 7 different groups/countries in just two years. I took several uni semesters on native North American cultures and barely scratched the surface. Knowing a little can be dangerous, because you don't know how much you don't know.)
The impact of this whole piece culminating in Kumail Nanjiani's comment about Gerald Ford's ribs is profound and so understated! Well done LWT!! (Ps Kumail's delivery is masterful!)
@@user-hq8wm8giyujcg No it is not a subcontinent the continent if you want to add asia africa and europe togheter has a name it is called afroeurasia also known as the old world. There is different definitions of continent europe asia and africa classify as continents. But they also all do not classify as continents, there is a similar deal with America by the way.
“You can’t judge us in the present based on what we did in the past” ok, but in the present you are openly choosing to keep items you know are stolen, and yes, we can absolutely judge you for that
No, you cant, because you live on stolen land yourself. If you never owned it, nor your parents or grandparents never owned it, you have no claim to it. This argument of perpetuity is idiotic.
@@Skozerny I'm not sure you grasped what OP was saying. But how silly is the idea of land ownership? Imagine someone saying, "This piece of dirt is mine, and mine alone... For the span of time between my paying off the bank mortgage, and my death... And as long as I can pay the taxes on it... so about 10 years if I'm lucky..." And that's only ownership in the eyes of the state.
You make a valid point. Individuals might be granted some grace period where we won't judge them for mistakes made in the past from which they have since learned. (Well, we'll always judge them, as humans that's how we are, but some of us might forgive, or count time served as punishment.) But institutions which span centuries are (and must be) held to a different standard. Like the Museum of London can say, "Don't judge us for past mistakes," but only once they have actively rectified those mistakes. Certainly not while they are still making, and actively profiting, off of those mistakes.
The ridiculous part is, that there is a well established and functioning lease and lend economy for museums. Most countries are very, very open to lending out artworks to other countries museums to share their culture around the world, even indefinitely.
@@Kap00rwith2os I'm pretty sure that's their point. These museums could hold and display these objects ethically, they just don't bother to go through the process of returning them and then getting lending permission.
Its a weird business practice acquiring art and cultural objects through conquest or illegal trade and then making money on them not only by displaying them but also renting them out to other museums. That would be like stealing objects from your neighboring city and making money on its display and renting it out for others to display. And the sad thing is seeing people, who work for the museums, or profit from this practice, actively defend the museums claim the objects despite the obvious dubious morality of it, all in the name of profits. Every time i see someone say something so crazy or defend the indefensible i have to stop and say "Well, whos profiting from this" and once you follow the money trail, it all makes a dark sense.
the start of his routine is great too. "imagine someone stole something from you. It is not question they did, they're not even hiding it. In fact, they're doing the opposite of hiding it. They are literally putting it _on_ _display_ in their home"
"Here at the British Museum, we don't believe in erasing the mistakes of the past." "Can I return it then?" "Nice try but we don't believe in returns either."
That’s one of the most frustrating parts of this. In playing “World Heritage Curator” the British Museum and similar institutions are missing the opportunity to focus solely on their own heritage
I just lost my best fur friend last year and it was devastating as it always is. Being an adopter of older pets, ive been through this heartbreak many times. All we can do is give them the best lives possible and and pass on the love they give us. So sorry for your loss farron. So glad those two kittens landed in the right hands.
I'm an archaeology/anthropology student and, thank you so much for talking about this. It's such a huge issue. So many artefacts are just sitting in storage, in refrigerated/temp controlled rooms, in boxes and drawers, where people rarely go. I've been back into one of those rooms; I saw beautiful Clovis points, pristine sandals, baskets, and a bunch more, and all were in storage. Permanently. It's so sad, and that was just a small museum - I love museums but it's heartbreaking to know that there are so many more pieces of history hiding away, so far from home, never to be seen again. It's awful. And while I love museums, those artefacts should go home.
And then they go and they put in history books that tribal people were savages who lived hard lives trying to survive. People don't have time to make such beautiful fine works of art if they're struggling to survive. The British spent hundreds of years destroying culture around the world. And now white countries try to lie about history, when it was the white man who lived in squalor and disease, being barbaric and filthy and immoral. When they traveled outside their own lands they saw how good everybody else was living and they hated it. They were jealous. So they stole as much as they could and they tried to rule over as much as they could. But instead of gaining the knowledge of the people they tried to rule over and steal from, they did their best to destroy it. Now our world has lost so much knowledge that we used to have, and it's all because of white countries in the past wanted to steal and own everything. They were unhappy with what little they could create on their own.
Yeah it's totally unfair that Iditarod culture and items are taken. more so cuz the different Indian cultures and groups didn't resort to pillaging and looting when Victor's in conflict. luckily they didn't otherwise there might be some awful double standards going on here....
Its so gross how often they default to the age old argument that "the law," which was written by thieves to legalize their plunder, is on their side. Really feels like "we were the aggressor, we stole it fair and square, and they couldn't do anything about it" wrapped up in a prim and proper facade, and feels very pompous.
Not only that. The Acropolis museum is a pleasure to walk in with proper lighting, historical context and explanations. Beside being literally beside the Acropolis where many of the statues and reliefs resided. Conversely, the British museum is an old style museum that only masses artifacts without giving proper context. Especially the acropolis room is gloomy and really fails to convey the beauty of the group.
@@jd0604 Nobody is arguing that the museums shouldn't exist. They'll still have a lot of stuff after they've given back the stolen things, and things can be loaned from one museum to another.
@@jd0604 that’s literally the stupidest comment I’ve seen. It’s GREEK inheritance and it’s needed to be exhibited at the museum of Acropolis. Our history was stolen and Britain is just making excuses . That hideous woman is comparing the Greeks to an abusive mother? For real ? If you want to see the Greek exhibits and find out about Greek mythology save some money and visit Greece . I was crying about half an hour when I saw caryatid in LONDON. I was furious .
The whole segment reminds me of the scene from Black Panther with Erik Killmonger in the British Museum. The whole heist and him asking the museum curator " How do you think your ancestors got these?" was so powerful to watch. Great segment as always.
And he immediately showed why the artifacts had to be taken from his culture. Listen, don’t use black panther ad an example of anything. It’s a turd of a movie made by a company that wants your money. Be smarter than that
@@ILoveGrilledCheese and how did Killmonger show the vibranium tool had to be taken from Wakanda? So it would be in a museum more vulnerable to theft than a hidden nation with futuristic technology?
I was actually in a historical research methods and ethics class when Black Panther came out and I remember the first class after the release date my prof came in radiating with glee and changed the whole syllabus around to cover museum and archeological ethics.
I have taught in an MLIS Program in the United States since 1991. Throughout all of these years, I have encouraged students to read about and examine the ethics of collecting and retaining cultural items. I am adding your review of these issues to my list of required readings/viewings the next time this topic is discussed. Looking forward to part two.
@@jvillanueva2978 we would have vastly undermined our medical, and anthropological, knowledge such that the practice of modern medicine would not exist if we did not keep at least some cadavers for research. also it's A ok to keep body parts in a museum if there are no cultural or personal conflicts involved.
@@jvillanueva2978 For someone who want to get brownie points that is the right position. But you also would have to close the Nationalmuseum in Kairo and end excavations in Egypt or any anthropologic and genetic research and testing. I am sure the Neandertaler community is happy for your position.
Shout out to University of Aberdeen for looking inward and looking to repatriate items they wrongfully acquired. That is tremendous. Giving items back you shouldn't possess without being asked or the rightful owner even knowing you have them is HUGE.
It's a sad state that honesty is so highly praised. It's a kindergarten age rule, and the thing is, we all know it's so highly praised because a large chunk of the aristocracy and rulers of the world operate on a system of half truths and backdoor deals.
"Can we have our stuff back?" "I don't know. I'm not sure you can even prove it is your stuff." "Yes, I can. You put it in a display case, with a little placard VERY EXPLICITLY STATING THAT IT IS MY STUFF" The British Museum in a nutshell
It is more nuanced than that. Britain has the Rosetta stone because we took it off a French warship that we defeated in the Napoleonic wars. Napoleon had a good old loot when he was there. Also, there are some things in the museum that were sold in good faith by the governments of the time and now the modern governments want it back. I am not against it in principle but if that happens, then the French, Spanish , American etc museums plus private collections, should give their stuff back too. I am sure there are British treasures in foreign museums. The Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York has a whole 'British' floor.
Meh... not quite. One thing to note about the Benin Bronzes is that they are Benin, not Nigerian. Benin has been eaten by Nigeria but the bronzes would be returned to Nigeria, not Benin. The past is a distant shore. The owners and creators of these treasures are LONG dead. Those who happen to be born on the same ground in modern times have no more claim than those who are actually descended from the creators who were driven from their ancestral lands. Modern Egyptians are unrelated to the builders of the Pyramids. The Roman empire looted the shit out of Britain. Should modern Mexico return the art of the Incas to their few remaining descendents? All this fighting over old shit is averice and prestige and nothing more.
Lets all appreciate that HBO puts all LWT episodes in almost their entirety for free on youtube without a shitton of ads.
Its cuz not everyone can afford HBO or wants HBO, verrry admirable
Well, I even have HBO (Max) and I still watch in on YT, because that's where most of the stuff I watch is. It's great that the important part is here and that it can get to so many people.
you guys having ads?
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I’ve been saying that. It’s fantastic.
Don't put thoughts in their head ;)
I once saw that someone said that the only reason Egypt still has the pyramids is that they were too big to be moved to Britain
I saw it too😂
And the living accommodations isn’t roomy enough for American or Russian Oligarchs….
That's an excellent level of stupid lol
The tops of the pyramids were tipped with gold and i would not be surprised to find them in Britain or very possibly in the vaults of the Vatican.
Or in Turin, Italy 😅 🙊
My grandmother found out her grand parents had managed to obtain an Eaglehead dress when she was going through our family storage, she contacted a bunch of people about where it should be probably donated, the museums wanted to not only claim it and planned to put in storage , but were going to fine her for owning it. Keep in mind she was not trying to sell just send it where it should be, thankfully a native American Heritage association got ahold of her and had the legal power to defend their claim on it so it did not end up in a box in a bottom of a basement. It was really gorgoues. I wish I knew where it ended up only that it ended up with a heritage organizaiton.
I was gonna google eaglehead dress because it sounded cool, and only then realised you probably meant an eagle headdress?
That was likely a war trophy. The religious significance of a single eagle feather, let alone an entire war bonnet is too great for it to have been a gift, if genuine. And genuine ones are never sold or traded.
Damn Im white and it still blow my mind how we can still be
sad fact only white people got some of their artefact returned from Denmark (im sure others small things got returned) as A dane who love vikings Im sad for people culture to be stolen
It was probably warn and destroyed by some native on a reservation rather than preserved for future antropologists to study and learn from
Imagine being so privileged and self-centered to have the audacity to think they can find somebody for having artifacts that belongs to somebody else.
"Why do we have three of Gerald Ford's ribs? Because we couldn't get four."
Favorite line in the entire video.
Wgas?
Fun fact about the Elgin Marbles: After the British Museum refused to return them on the grounds that Greece didn’t have a proper place to display them, they built the state of the art modern Acropolis Museum in Athens for the chief purpose of housing the Elgin Marbles. They still refuse to send them back. Also, when Lord Elgin was transporting the marbles to Britain, the ship they were on sank, and the marbles had to be salvaged from the ocean floor.
This is like a caricature. A thief pulling a sled of stolen goods that tips over and they hurriedly addresses the situation before their victims can catch them
It is truly very sad
Please call them the Parthenon Marbles not "the elgin marbles". They were never his. Thank you. A greek person.
Jesus Christ died for our sins, rose from the dead, and gives salvation to everyone who has faith in him. True faith in Jesus will have you bear good fruit and *drastically* change for the better! Those led by the Holy Spirit do not abide in wickedness.
*God is ONE manifesting himself as THREE;* the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit! Bless him! *For these three are one.*
As I am led by the Holy Spirit, nothing I state is a lie, but the truth of God. Anyone who tells you differently is misinformed or a liar. They do not know God, nor led by him.
Anyone who *claims* to be a Christian and is against what I am doing, and where I am doing it; the Holy Spirit does not dwell within them, they lack understanding. They know not God, read his word, and their religion is in vain. Do not hear them, they will mislead you, the lost cannot guide the lost.
When you trust in God and cast your cares (worries, anxiety, depression, suicidal thoughts) upon him, they will be NO MORE!
Know that there is power in the name Jesus Christ! His name casts out demons and heals!
The world is wicked, evil, and of the devil.
I too, was a wicked sinner of the world before I opened my heart to God. I am living proof of God's work and fruitfulness! He is an active God who hears the prayers of his! God's children are set apart (holy) and righteous. The devil is a liar that comes to steal, to kill, and to destroy; that includes your relationship with God.
One thing John didn't mention was how much more stolen art is hidden away in private collections. These people often have deeper pockets and less hesitation to acquiring art with a "dubious" ownership history.
Yep. That's how the Getty "museum" in California got its start. When I was studying Classics for my undergrad degree that place was discussed a lot because of all the artifacts and how they were acquired.
true, but the segment is called “museums”
Exactly. Public institutions aren't sustaining the black market alone. Where there are buyers, there will be thieves.
I'm for it. Let me cry
Sure, but each single private weirdo will not have anything like the collection that a single major museum like the British Museum has. It's much more practical to focus on the museums (at least for now) because they will naturally be responsive to legislation, whereas rich criminals will not. A single law could be passed & the problem of imperial loot in museums could be solved.
That's not to say that we shouldn't go after those people as vigorously as possible & return their ill gotten loot to their proper homes... it's just a different problem which will be more complicated to solve.
I studied Native American Anthropology under a Cherokee professor, and one of the things she was involved with (a side hustle, you could say) was seeking to get stolen Native artifacts out of museum basements and back with the tribes. In one case, the museum was being stubborn that "you can't prove we stole this," so my professor tracked down the granddaughter of the woman who made the item (I think it was a ceremonial bead robe or shawl). This tribal elder explained the little tricks her grandmother used that literally no one could have known, things even the museum didn't notice until they inspected even closer, family trade secrets she still used and had taught to her own grandchildren. She made it more than abundantly clear, this belonged to her family.
Back in the 1800s, her village was raided and her grandmother gangraped by White men. They ran off with anything they thought looked valuable. This included some of the young girls, livestock, head dresses, furs, and her beadwork outfits. So not only was it stolen, but in a really horrific manner. The museum had bought the majority of their Native American artifacts off a group of rapists.
That was not the type of publicity they wanted, so they gave it back. This old lady wore her grandmother's robe at the next dance ceremony. All of this was around 20 years ago, so I hope her grandkids still wear that outfit at ceremonies.
daym...
Probably lost in a box somewhere instead of being shown to the public. What idiots the museum was
@@placebojesus5652 "Blah blah history, blah blah both sides, blah blah blah coulda woulda shoulda, blah blah blah triggered. blah blah I'm in the power seat now, so all the back and forth before doesn't count cause the past was just a practice run, and history actually begins now with my culture on top."
You're a clown and we all see you with your pants around your ankles, pretending. 😆 🤡😆🤡😆🤡😆🤡😆
@@MasterCommandCEO Don't forget the dumbasses who defend the museums and their actions.
@@placebojesus5652 "well we could have been worse" is a very bad excuse when talking about cultural - and actual - genocide tho
also two wrongs don't make a right? yes it's horrible native americans killed some of your family, but that doesn't excuse theft, murder and gangrape and it isn't an excuse to not try to right the wrongs of the past.
i mean both as a general rule. i don't think europeans are especially cruel or evil. just don't make excuses because you're uncomfortable with your ancestor's history.
One of the biggest problems with the "anyone can visit it" argument is that many of them are not meant to just be visited. Many of the idols of deities from Asian countries were stolen from active worship. They would absolutely be put back into worship the minute they were returned. Many Native dresses and artifacts are still used ceremonially. These are not "history" - they were in use in the modern day.
Another Argument, A Nigerian schoolkid learning about their country's history probably can't afford to do a Pan-european roadtrip to various museums with expensive entrance fees just to see the Benin Bronzes in their near entirety.
It's like someone stealing my rice cooker and kettle then saying "Oh but you can still seeee them just go to fucking Paris"
On top of cost there’s also visa issues. I’m not sure the situation for a Nigerian going to the UK, but it can often be very difficult for people from the Global South to even be approved for tourist visas to North America and Europe. I have a Brazilian friend who was denied a tourist visa to the US because despite being enrolled in university in Brazil, just by virtue of being a young unmarried man he was deemed to be a high risk for overstaying a visa. So even if you have the money to travel across the globe to see your country’s cultural treasures, you can still be denied a visa to even enter the country
Exactly. Although the opposite is true paradoxically ... in Italy in the Uffizi Gallery in Firenze the statue of David one admires outside is a copy, the real one, smaller is inside protected from the weather and believe me the Louvre ain't got nothing on Italian museums for tourist wait lines. The Egyptian collection in the Berlin museum to be fair goes on tour periodically ... hail Schlieimann looter of Troy. This is a digression from your very good point btw but I couldn't resist. To support your argument though, in the Toronto Museum there are several totem poles belonging the Haida which if returned would indeed be used as part of their culture of potlach and spirit animals.
your english is really bad or you can't make a point well. are they not history or WERE they in use? if they WERE in use as you said, then thats not being in use in the modern day. its like saying you used to use something then saying you use it every day. then why say used to? so same question to you, are you just not capable of speaking properly or do you not really have a point to make? either way id say your intellect is lacking to the extent that maybe you should just stfu and keep your ignorance to yourself.
This reminds me a lot of the Irish Giant Charles Byrne. He was 7' 7'' and he was so afraid of a collector or museum displaying his body when he died that he had his friends bury him at sea. Unfortunately, before his friends could follow through with their promise his corpse was stolen by a 'collector' and was eventually sold to the Royal College of Surgeons in London. It is still on display there over 200 years later despite efforts by activists for him to be buried. People with the same genetic condition as Byrne, who are from the same part of the country as him and probably share DNA have offered to donate their skeletons when they die so that Byrne can be released, but the museum has always refused.
That is seriously horrifying
That's absolutely awful & just so callous.
To know that they would be so obsessive about 'collecting' him, he must have heard a bunch of super creepy comments about displaying his body while still alive.
that's just horrible
This is fucked up
As a Greek person I am glad someone with a large audience like John Oliver is taking about this
Just stop abusing your statues man XD
@@zwenkwiel816 considering that it was a British man, not a Greek one, who carved out the bits of relief mentioned in the video, I’d say check yourself
@@jordinagel1184 hey I'm not the one having sex with statues here
@@zwenkwiel816 riiiight… Forgive me for having taken you at all seriously
Agreed rather wholeheartedly. Oh sure these bits of culture are nice to show off in museums, but we have the technology to now make highly detailed full 3d scans of the pieces and use those to make near flawless duplicates.
I remember a field trip to the parthanon in Nashville in sixth grade.
I. Fucking. LOVED it. I didn't care that it was all reproduction. I just loved that it was there and it was an attempt at bringing antiquity TO us in a way that was accessable. I mean. It wouldn't have had the sam effect to see a bit of this anda bitof that behind glass. Seeing a life sized recreation of the frescos and statues. To walk the length and bredth of a place and cast your mind's eye back. 'This was built.... without modern tools by a culture who had the will and knowledge to make it happen.... also a shitton of slaves ando r menials to do the grunt work.'
I want more places like that. Less of the vandalism.
My daughter works at the National Museum of Scotland and worked hard to help a indigenous community from our home in Canada try to repatriate a memorial pole that was stolen from their community. She was disciplined for trying to help them. I’d love you to do a story about their struggle.
As a Canadian with an interest in museum work and my country's cultural heritage that is interesting. Thanks for sharing and good on her for trying to help
Thank you to your daughter for her efforts. This story got a fair bit of press here in Canada when the Nisga'a delegation visited the museum in August, but I assume the repatriation efforts have stalled since there have been no updates since then.
Still, the fact that the museum was willing to meet and discuss the possible repatriation brings me some hope. The British Museum has another Nisga'a pole which they purchased from the same man (Marius Barbeau) who sold the pole in the National Museum of Scotland. They also have a Haida pole acquired from a different collector. Maybe Scotland can set an example that prompts the British Museum to return these two poles and other artifacts looted throughout history.
@@kestaa I very much hope The National Museum of Scotland can be a leader in reparations. It is a huge passion for my daughter. She hopes to complete her Archaeology degree.
What is wrong with sccotland?
Not only Scotland, but Scottish People are different from English. More open. They felt in their skins the evil from Britain...
Kumail absolutely crushed his bit in this, what a flawless performance 👏
We followed all the laws.
@@wjrasmussen666 All the "lows." (That was the best bit.)
I liked it a lot, verging on sinister
"Seriously, give me a number"
My favorite thing I think I've ever seen in a museum is a totem pole carved by a local tribal artist. The museum used to have a looted totem pole, but they gave it back to the tribe and instead commissioned a new pole to be displayed in a section dedicated to the tribe's history and current goings-on.
With our modern technology, exhibits could include videos of them making the items, which I think is infinitely more valuable.
That’s beautiful! I would love to see that.
😭that’s so beautiful! Now we just need to do this nation wide
Was this in the R.O.M?
I don’t know if this is where you had your experience, but I work at the Harvard Museums of Science & Culture, in Cambridge, MA, and we have that exact situation! The new totem pole has an adjoined video showing it’s creation. There are plenty of other original indigenous artifacts, but I’m at least happy that this was given back.
I used to work for the natural science museum in Houston and they did go through their exhibits and their archives and return Native American artifacts to the various nations they belonged to. Then they worked with native artists and commissioned replicas for display. I don't know why other museums can't do something similar.
It is sad that other museums don’t do that
Repatriation and inclusion of communities are rising themes in museums and it really seems that museums are starting to do similar things much more often.
Replicas are the most obvious answer
@@seffishestopal5950 You people act like King Tut is still walking around to return his belongings to. Sending items back to their country of origin, or even thinking about just sending that country money as "reparations" isn't the answer here. You're rewarding people who didn't have anything to do with the artifacts to begin with.
@@tepidceranda3394 To people who didn't have anything to do with them? It's THEIR cultural heritage ffs. This is not about returning articats to individuals but to return them to their cultural homes so the indigenous people can enjoy their heritage. Jeez..
When I was in a museum in Cambodia, they had some empty glass cases describing an artifact that was in some other museum and when they asked for it back. Some of the cases did have items with labels when they asked for an item back and when they received it usually several years to a decade later. I think this public shaming is a clever idea and makes people more aware of the issue.
It's exactly the same in the Akropolis museum in Athens
I think the stockades should make a societal comeback. If we can't penalize corporations for crimes then we should at least be able to throw 6$ genetically modified and glyphosate ridden tomatoes at their ceos, cfos, 23 vice presidents and board members. That'll be one long piece of wood. Too bad we have so few old growth forests left in existence.
"no one saw that man as significant" made me immediately cry. As a Hindu and Indian born in the US, this is a deeply painful subject, and John Oliver (as always) covered it so well. Thank you for advocating for cultures whose vocal cords have been ripped from them then called too stupid to speak up when it was happening.
Oh boo hoo....
@@GeorgeWashington283 equally sad for you.
@_TheGoddessinTraining_ who cares history has never been easy might makes right and thank God for the British....they stole nothing it was there's for the taking
@@GeorgeWashington283 post your address let's see if you're as brave in person
@@GeorgeWashington283you’re such an butthole
That open question about how long someone can be dead for it to be okay to have a piece of their body is superb.
I mean abortion has been taking people out of their own mothers for a while now so
10 second rule right?
HIs delivery was fantastic too, his facial expression, the camera zoom in, prefect execution of a very pointed question about when it's okay to put a human corpse on display for grade schoolers to gawk at or shoved in a box in a basement.
@@KahlevN the perfectly timed eyebrow waggle with unwavering gaze...
How long does someone have to be dead for it to be Archeology and not grave robbing
Holy shit, that sequence at the end with Kumail Nanjiani at the Payback Museum was amazing. That open question about how long someone can be dead for it to be okay to have a piece of their body is superb.
I'd say it's best to get the parts as fresh as possible. If the person is already important you might want to make sure to get to the body first. So the real question would be how long to hide it in the storage?
In Poland just after the paperwork is finished. Organ donation does not require consent of neither the (deceased) donor nor their family.
33:00 was intimidating as hell
You know, whatever country you live in, we're all complacent victims. Art is the commodity of the Rich, and they think it's something to own another's culture for a lot of money. Am I going to get killed for saying this needs to be busted up? Art belongs to us all. You know, we stopped the Noozies from stealing everyone's Art, in a world war that one time. Are we back in the 1910s again?
ok
I love how the quote "if we said yes to one you'd soon find the British museum empty" is literally just them going mask off and saying "we won't give any of it back because we want money"
It's a free museum. I don't think anyone who works there is particularly wealthy. It continues through donations.
@mynamesnotadam but a lot of people visit London just to visit the British museum. It brings in a lot of money through tourism
@@mynamesnotadam nothing is ever technically free. The museum makes money somehow, otherwise it wouldn't stay open. There's got to be some sort of money incentive for them otherwise they wouldn't keep something that unnecessarily wastes funds.
@himarisuzuki5208 I'm no expert in its funding, but you can become a member and pay a membership, donate money, use its over priced cafe, some exhibitions charge I think. But it's main source I would be the goverment funding. Maybe. I don't do their finances. Either way a lot of museums are free and it's because they provide a function which is to educate and exhibit the story
I think it's about trust that artifacts will stay untouched and not in private hands. But obviously it doesn't make it ethical to limit access or even lending rights.
I had my best moment during my visit to the British Museum in one of its toilets, where I found written on one white brick: "I suppose you stole this marble too, eh?". Brilliant!
@John Capry Well, most of the museum's collection didn't impress me, the only other great thing I remember having a glimpse there was the Rosetta Stone - it was crowded around it.
@John Capry Just spreading the sunshine, aren't you?
@John Capry Aww, that's so sweet. Getting your feelings hurt on behalf of those poor colonizers. Surely, they would give you big hugs for defending their honor.
@John Capry You seem to be a moment away from spewing something daft. Go for it.
@John Capry I'm sure the imperialist overlords pay you well for your sniveling boot licking on their behalf. oh, your doing it for free? just a cretin, then. how sad.
"If you say yes to one, you would suddenly find the British Museum is empty."
That's kinda the point.
That’s also why these museum will never return things, at least not on a scale that matters. These museums would go out of business if they returned all those artifacts, so they’ll never return them willingly.
When enough time passes I think stolen goods become part of the cultural heritage of the country that stole that stuff.
@@bencilsharpie7567 Let me know when you go on vacation for like a week. I'd like to test your theory when it's YOUR shit that's stolen.
OR OR. Even better. YOU COULD MAKE REPLICAS. Damn pretentious bastards.
@@bencilsharpie7567 tell that horse shit to yourself.
Fun fact the word loot is a Hindi / Sanskrit (Indian language) word. So the British looted so much that they even took the word loot which the people cried when they were looting.
Wow I didn’t know this! So messed up!
Thanks for sharing!
True like; Lootpaat, Lootmaar, Lootera, Lootere, Loot lena, Loot Liya.....
Fascinating
Queen Victoria named a dog (the first Pekingese in England) stolen from a Chinese palace "Looty"
My mother inherited a piece of the Parthenon from her father that he brought home after WWll. I remember it being a doorstop growing up. She mailed it back to Greece about 15 years ago
This reminds me of an exhibition at the Nairobi National Museum. The place was empty except for placques stating what artifact should be there, which European museum has it and why the refuse to return it.
That's so sad... I think it's gonna take a long time to get to a point where most artifacts are returned to the place they were stolen from, but it's definitely worth it to keep trying. Those people deserve ownership of their own cultural heritage just as much as everyone else. It's a spit in the face to have to deal with this after colonialization as well... as if there was not enough harm done already. They really aren't even trying to do the bare minimum in order to set things right after they wronged so many (not just Britain ofc, but since they were the colonial overlords, they are definitely one of the biggest perpetrators here).
@@xXBlacky77Xx
The French carved up huge swathes of Africa too.
@@GTAVictor9128 and put them in the Quai Branly yea
Powerful
See if I was an “influencer” with money to jet around or set up a real life squid game I would be flying there to bring attention to that
Or the sewage spills off the pacific coast that run 24/7 now
"The difference between archaeology and looting is 50 years." - one of my anthropology professors explaining the fucked up providence arguments of museums.
Ahem. Per John Oliver, the looting is still going on. 😐
But what about dinosaurs
@@youtubeuserandchef471 that's paleontology.
Lyndon B. Johnson died just under 50 years ago, and I've been waiting to sell his ribs for foreverrrrrrrrr
anthropology is just cannibals licking bones.
One of the most fun museums I've ever visited was filled with REPLICAS of famous sculptures, and the fact that they weren't originals truly didn't lessen the impact of the craftsmanship and artistic vision of the artist. I don't know why we can't do that with all the objects we've stolen from other countries. I'm sure that most people wouldn't be able to spot the difference even if they knew.
Or how about establishing a relationship with the country of origin to loan out artifacts to museums around the world where they can be appreciated by many more, and their owners are rightfully compensated for sharing their history?
Look up dinosaur skeletons and find out how much what you see has been replicated, also go to the shipwreck museum in key west and see how they replicate artifacts for show.
@@sircrapalot9954 Oliver addresses that near the end as a viable (and even likely) option many of these countries can take. The issue is most of these museums don’t simply want to display the treasures - they accumulate wealth by “owning” it and a loaning system prevents that.
There is a certain awe in seeing original pieces, but it should be the decision of the nation of origin. So much stuff was taken from 3rd world countries. I bet the extra revenue from loaning their historic artifacts would bring them closer to a modern world. And I'd be willing to spend extra to see an original piece, especially if I'm used to seeing the replica.
@@ascent8487 to apreciate the craftsmanship? replicas are better for disserning details since they are .. well not hundreds or thousands of years old. A replica is basically what the exhibited sculpture looked like when it was made. You can allow people to touch replicas or at least get mutch closer as they are not as valuable.
So many Nepalese deities are all over USA. The most important one is Taleju Bhagwan goddess, she graces Chicago museum right now. I am 30 years old and I have never seen the statue cause it was stolen decades ago and now the empty temple stands in heart Kathmandu waiting for the deity to return home. I spotted several of deities in Yale museum as well. It’s heartbreaking.
I met some members of the Lakota Nation a few years back. They told me that one of the leaders in the community, Mama Jules, was Crazy Horse's granddaughter, and that she had been trying for years to get his war jacket/vest back from the Smithsonian. The Smithsonian just kept delaying and giving bogus answers for why it could not be returned. All of these cases take on a greater level of frustration when you hear the personal stories of the folk the items were taken from.
What im hearing is we need to oceans eleven the Smithsonian in order to return the artifacts to their rightful owners
mama julz is a gift to this world.
@@Furry-ousNews im in
@@Furry-ousNews I am also in
First off, Mama Jules is a great name and I'm sure she's as awesome as she sounds.
Secondly, imagine some institution is hanging on to your grandfathers coat for no good reason.
My favorite "argument" against doing the right thing is "well where do you draw the line, if we do this good thing, why not do MORE good things, well I never!" Always brings out the ancient rage and desperation in me...
The only way you could have drawn that conclusion is if you’re mentally handicapped.
Ugh steering the conversation away from the point. It's not a logical argument. They can at least come up with a better one.
And John had a great response to this in his Confederate statue video.
"Anytime someone asks, 'Where does it stop?' The answer is always, 'Fucking somewhere!' You might let your kid have Twizzlers, but not inject black-tar heroin. You don't just go, 'Well, after the Twizzlers, where does it stop?'"
Its arguably not all always a good thing though. You can follow this train of thought to claim that turkey should hand over istanbul. Its full of ancient european artifacts and it was taken by force
@@Freekymoho What's wrong with that?
As a Peruvian, I really appreciate this piece of journalism. I always read about provenance when I see Peruvian pieces in museums around the world. And I feel pain when I get the sense that the piece is original and from unclear provenance. E.g. lately, I saw just “privately funded.” Gosh, that could mean so many things. It was a beautiful silver chalice.
Same. It's also a continuation of the colonial mindset, that we're all children that need to be told how to preserve our culture.
@@feenixgrrl It's also part of the mindset of the Captians of Industry. Andrew Carnegie famously said that the upper class should manage all the money for all people because they know best and what is best for the people who work for them . Entitled much? Same colonialism mindset. Wait here while I take your shit and while you're waiting could you clean up my house .
as a Peruvian you should just be happy you're not hunting tigers in the jungle right now. you're welcome for the internet, television, radio, cars, computers, cell phones and all the rest
Though, I wonder how long before
the 'Anti-Woke' Police come after J.O.
(John Oliver)? . . . Or, at least, his 'Remains' ("💩")? . . . 🤭😆😂😒
Once again, J.O. hits it outta
the park. . . . Aaand, . . .
the bit with Kumail Nanjaini
really brought it home! 😂🤣
I love the payback museum. I also note that the thieves simply write laws that call their actions legal, then seem surprised at their victims anger.
I LIKED HOW YOU POSTED WHAT THE VIDEO SAID BUT IN A MUCH MORE GENERIC WAY!!!! I HOPE YOU GET ALL THE UPDOOTS YOU WANT! THATS WHY YOU POST GENERIC COMMENTS RIGHT?!? SO PEOPLE CLICK THUMBS UP AND YOU DONT FEEL LIKE A FAILURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
calm dawn m'nigga@@itchiegames
@@itchiegamesu k?
My mum who is a chronic fox news watcher was still unsure after this and it only took a "imagine if the lady of lourdes statue of Mary was sawn off at the feet to be put on display in Kenya, how livid you and all of fox news would be" to get her to understand how not ok all of this is.
Karen sounds like a real treat to be around
@@theultimaterental We don't choose the quality of our own family unfortunately, but we can decide the quality of their retirement home.
@@galaktoast lmao!
Hypocrites
@@galaktoast LOL! I love this.
"We can't do the right thing now, or else we'd have to do the right thing again in the future" - the British Museum.
That exact logic is how the Brits managed to invent Capitalism.
@@Praisethesunson I thought the idea behind capitalism was "if everyone only cares about themselves, everyone is cared for".
@@qwertyuiopzxcfgh I'd care about someone other than myself. But if I did I'd have to care about even more people in the future.
Capitalism: Bad people do bad things, and when they are rich they pay people to tell everyone else it was for the good of all.
If we admit fault now, we'd have to admit fault for everything...and I mean everything. And we can't have that, now, can we?
@@HighFiveTheHorizon Honestly, uncaringness and imperial atitudes aside, *some* of the removals for archiving may have even made sense at the time, but the situation *now* is more important than blame. Wherever the fault lies, the question is what can be done *now.* Even innocent motives originally, or dodging blame, doesn't have much to do with where something belongs *now.*
Someone once asked me how much time needs to pass before grave robbing becomes archaeology, and I immediately responded, "The amount of time it takes to ship it to the British Museum."
ok
ok
I think when enough time passes the loot becomes part of the cultural heritage of the country that stole it.
@@bencilsharpie7567 I think that’s the hottest fucking take I’ll hear all day, holy shit that’s dumb.
@@LeMayJoseph Why? If for example a grandpa to "Richard" had stolen a watch from your grandpa 50 years ago and then in 50 years your grandchildren knock on Richard's grandchildren's door and demand the watch to be returned to its "proper owner" that would be kind of ridiculous.
if both the one the stole the stuff and the one that got their stuff stolen has long since passed its kinda dumb to argue over the ownership.
Shout out to my history teacher for showing the whole class this video! I have never laughed and also been so angry at the same time.
"I'm serious give me a number for how long after his death it's okay to have a part of someone's body sweating in your Museum's hot storage." Yeah this one hit me.
When Australian institutions contact British ones looking for stolen human remains, over half of the institutions refuse to even acknowledge if they have human remains or not, let alone return them. People's family members - some murdered, some the victim of grave robbing - just sitting in cupboards somewhere because of greedy arseholes. What makes it so frustrating is that if I stole some human remains from a British cemetary and put them on display somewhere, there would be outrage.
In the us? About 75-100 years depending on the state. Thats the cut off point where remains are no longer considered forensic
@@AndyFNQ84 Australia's a good example of why the "they won't take care of them" argument is so ridiculous. Are they really saying Australia's not capable of caring for artifacts?
Now whether Australian museums are going to do the right thing with them when they get them, or just continue doing what the British ones are doing is a whole other question, but there's really no question stolen artifacts from countries like Australia, Canada, NZ etc should be returned is there!
@@laneswitched9370 Oh cool! I've always thought the skull of Lincoln & Washington would make good collectors pieces. Do you know if they're still in their graves or if they've already been dug up & it's another collector I'd need to buy them off? If I can't get them, Jackson would be a good one too, I'm thinking his is probably a cheaper purchase - that will let me set soem money aside to buy JFK's skull in 15 years time, when it joins the "available to collectors" list :))
Actually even better than JFK's skull, how about a few of his manhood bones & I can buy Marilyn Monroe's pelvis bone as well & display JFK inside her :)
@@mehere8038 my guy im just pointing out that this question has a legal answer. Important information for anyone looking to change the system, no?
The way that woman smiles as she patronizes, is chilling.
Wypipo have no shame when it comes to colonialism and theft of culture and arts.
The mouth sounds alone gave me goosebumps and shivers. Then I heard what she was saying and almost puked.
@@ArashiKageTaro That's likely because they don't see themselves as connected to the crimes of their predecessors. That seems to be a common theme in all these cases of historical wrongs displayed as 'history' by the perpetrators' descendants.
@R J Meeks To be fair, I can't really blame them - if some random person knocked on my front door and said "Hey, your dining room table was stolen from us by your great-great-great-grandfather, we want it back", I would hesitate for... more than a few seconds, let's say that.
Of course, these aren't just random people.
@@abercrombieblovs2042 Yeah, but being in a museum doesn't count as still in use and (hopefully) no one committed murder for the dining table.
A number of years ago, our family visited the British Museum. While we were looking at the Rosetta Stone, my young son asked a guard, "Did you guys steal all this stuff?" The guard's reply was, "Well. I suppose we did."
Locals stole the contents of gravechambers and sold them. Locals didn't give a crap about the historical significance.
Brits discovered ancient artefacts and collected them for science and archeology and to educate the public.
This didn’t happen
And then everyone clapped.
The guard didnt know. The Rosetta Stone was found by a French Soldier when Napoleon had invaded Egypt. Very few people, including the local Egyptians, would have recognized what it was. It is astonishly valuable because it had a proclamation in Egyptian hieroglyphics and also in ancient Greek. The French scholar Champillion painstakingly worked out what the hieroglyphics meant. Britain received the stone as part of a treaty.
@@granthurlburt4062 it was also used as part of wall
if that solder though that he should leave it there, we would still have no clue, how to translate hieroglyphics
Greek person here: our conservation methods are actually very advanced. I attended a seminar a few years ago where a specialist actually went into detail about the methods they use to conserve and preserve the marbles. A lot of time and effort is put into researching the best ways to care for our artefacts, something that can’t be said for the British museum.
When you stop letting people walk right into the Parthenon then you can talk about responsible conservation methods.
@@ILoveGrilledCheese do you mean the Acropolis? No one can walk into the Parthenon. Plus a lot of the original art is in the Acropolis Museum not outside.
@@ILoveGrilledCheese people *cant* walk right into the Parthenon. I was there this summer, and they take very good care of the ancient structures as well as artifacts
@@ILoveGrilledCheese do you work for a swiss museum by any chance?
@@ILoveGrilledCheese You must be confused. You can't walk right into the Parthenon it is heavily guarded and any desegregation is very much punishable and enforced
From the british perspective, and those of other countries with stolen artifacts, the way forward ought to be fairly simple. Create replicas of each artifact to keep in your own museum, and return the originals to the countries they were stolen from.
❗❗❗❗❗
Yeah, they can have the copies of the Parthenon the Greeks were forced to have.
often times they were not stolen from countries. and often times those countries cannot be trusted to take care of them. the middle east has a history of destroying artifact from antiquity because they are pagan. i think it would be best to have artifacts held by those that would take care of them
They literally already do this with treasures from Western nations, so I don't see why they can't do it for everything else.
Then we'll have someone's uncle selling relics from a tugboat.
Clearly that man never understood Solomon’s story there. Solomon wasn’t saying whoever loves the baby more gets the baby, he was figuring out the true owner of it and giving it back!
And his hypothesis was that the real owner would be the one who loved it most, to the point of rather giving it up willingly than let it be put to death
@MegaNinjaRyan, yes, I wondered why he didn't make that point.
You have no idea how many museums and artifacts have ended up returned because of this episode. It's so amazing what someone with a platform can actually do just by telling a true story.
If you don't mind, could you expand on this? I'd be really interested to know what has been returned.
@@hummusdifier Agreed, I'd really like to hear more from the OP about this.
Do you have any idea?
Zero. The number is zero.
@@FLdancer00 Well, she wasn't wrong. We _don't_ know how many artifacts were returned because of this episode.
😁
In 1988, as a Belgian teenager, I visited the British Museum. I was shocked when I saw parts of temples and large statues that were sawn in blocks and have been moved to Great Britain. I asked the attendant if this wasn't all stolen from the countries where it came from and I'll never forget the answer : "I can't answer that question, I would be out of a job".
@Chad 007 Shut up Chad
Maher bill
@Koen: An answer like that is pretty much the same as saying "Yes."
Can't even get a truthful answer out of a "Museum" attendant. Ha! That's rich🤣
given that was only 20 years after the dissolution of "Belgisch-Kongo", that must've hit a bit hard home for ya :P
but yeah kinda shocking how much of the really messed up things people still considered "business as usual" until really recently while we all think it's been like hundreds of years ago...
related "fun" fact i learned (as a german): germany technically still holds territory in cuba nowadays. granted we didn't steal _that_ bit, castro just gave it to the DDR (and then during the reunification we all forgot it existed, and then a few years ago everyone just decided it was "only gifted symbolically"), but... yeah, so much for ancient colonial times :P
Thank you John so much the Benin Bronzes are my heritage and it breaks my heart when seeing them various museums all scrambled after being ripped from their home. I sent this to my father who has been fighting to bring them back and this spotlight made him so happy that there’s more attention on this. As a first generation African American, I want to know my history my home and thank you for doing something that might get that history back ❤
Bless your father!
Such a travesty for the British not to return the records of your cultural history as it holds a deep meaning to your people; shameful arrogance to feel entitled to what is not theirs to keep.
I am very glad, that there is a movement starting in the West to repatriate these artifacts.
I wish I could say the same for the 60,000 artifacts Japan stole from Korea and dared call some Koreans thieves when they forcibly repatriated 2 buddhist statues in 2012 and 2014.
(Hell, even the Kizaemon Ido, officially hailed as a national treasure was a 1500s stolen Korean artifact... of a peasant bowl because Japan couldn't even make a peasant bowl, so engrossed in samurais imposing 75% tax rates to raise militaries to kill each other)
And even said this "theft" is why they can't return the remaining 60,000 to Korea. Well if they were going to return it, they would have done so centuries ago, and should not have even stolen it in the first place. This is like calling the police the "thieves" when said police was just apprehending the real thief and forcibly returning his loot to the rightful owners.
White people sure are good at picking and choosing which parts of African history should be remembered or forgotten.
+
One of My favorite LWT stories, I watch it all the time! It’s like a comfort video.
I quite like what the swedish etnographical museum did. They had a totempole that had been purchased from native americans in the early 1900's and brought to Sweden. When the tribe wanted it back, they returned it in exchange for a newly made pole by the tribe. So not only did the tribe get their totempole back, the tradition of making them were kept alive and the swedish museum still had an excibit.
Can add that the Kitlope people then decided that the totempole should return to moder earth and buried it to molder.
Damn, why do Sweeden people sound like the most reasonable of the world? Literally just a bit of communication, and there you go, nothing is lost
@@Royalname31 Swede here: We have a lot of fucked up ahit in our museums, several Sámi artifacts, pictures of naked sámis (they were forced) as part of "racial" studies and so much more.
Whilst our country is alright, we aren't saints.
In general museums would get way more out of just loaning things out to each other because when you do that instead of stealing you actually get all of the relevant context as well. If the Benin Bronzes were returned to Nigeria then Nigerian scholars would probably be able to study them much better than someone in the UK just due to having more local knowledge and speaking the local language and then perhaps loan them back with some actual explanation of what they mean.
It was theirs to let molder to be fair. All this "who loves the baby more" stuff is really ridiculous. These things aren't babies, they aren't alive and don't have an intrinsic right to care. What people do with their own stuff does not legitimise you stealing it because you take better care of it.
@Royalname31 On the other hand Sweden has exact same problem as discussed in the video. Hundreds of stolen artwork from Prague including the priceless Codex gigas are still in Sweden’s possession with no chance of retribution
I like the idea of museums returning original objects, but also displaying reproductions. I like even better the idea of having craftspeople in the originating countries create reproductions for museums. That way it supports the continuation of the original crafts, and improves understanding of the cultural significance of the objects. But only if the craftspeople are decently paid for their work, which should go on display, not be kept in a box in storage.
there definitely need to be a industry of art reproductions, as well as international repatriation "agency" to link up with the originals and facilitate sharing and other stuff
@@PrograError I promise you, from the bottom of my heart, art reproductions of almost every type are available, particularly without the artist's consent
You are joking, aren't you?
This sounds so condescending. Artefacts created in the past, of which the context where in they were created isn't possible to recreate, should be returned to their original people, period. They shouldn't need to do all these other things you want them to do. Go recreate your own historical artefacts if you think it's so important.
@@PawSmalls it allows the original to be returned you dip.
I love that you did this episode! I am an art historian and always had my intro students debate this issue at several touch points in the survey course. It was always great to watch them wrestle with the complicated history of museums and come to terms with the art trade and the social function of museums. I'm glad it is getting much broader attention.
How do you deal with the dishonesty of the topic to label all non-European artifacts in western museums as stolen? Some of the artifact might have been in fact looted, but it was done in a time, before that was a moral issue and done by everyone. Also the contemporary people demanding them back do it mostly for their own nationalist ego and because of the monetary value they present today. This isn't a debate about justice or historic fairness, its simply a fight over pride and wealth.
@@roberthartburg266 You obviously didn't watch the entire segment.
@@roberthartburg266 Well, arguments like this would come up from some students. The exercise wasn't about solving the problem and reaching world peace as much as it was getting students to think critically about the problem. We tackled a lot of issues at the intersection of art, history, politics, culture, economics, etc., such as whether to reconstruct the Bamiyan Buddhas. Moral relativism like "they didn't know any better back then" merely tries to brush historic wrongs under the rug rather than dealing with them. It's complex and messy, but needs to be wrestled with.
@@roberthartburg266 never in human history was it ok to steal. Any righteous mind wouldve done the right thing and given the items back. These people are literally playing with fire by thinking they can ignore justice smh
@@roberthartburg266 yes but if you're denigrating a country for not being able to provide secure storage of historical artifacts because of their poverty while making money off of their artifacts, it's like we'll then just pay me for the shi
I honestly feel like at this point, we can really just create replicas to display and send back the originals if we really want to display stuff.
Would be much funnier to send back replicas though
Yup, with 3D modeling and printers they can recreate just about anything!
We could also send the British Museum a bunch of Robert E. Lee statues. Win-win for everyone!
They already do. Take for example the Sutton hoo helmet. There is a reproduction to show what it originally looked like, many people assume it is the original. The original was in pieces and incomplete when it was first discovered.
It depends. With The Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act museums actually have to get permission from tribes to have replicas.
Another subject that pains me about this: Museums store a lot of artifact without studying them. For example, there are thousands of Assyrian tablets stored within museums that have never even been translated, leaving a lot of potential data out of study. If you don't study it nor display it, why should we keep it?
Thanks to John Oliver and his team for talking about this issue. Cool episode! :)
I have seen the famous Hamurabi's codes inscribed on a tablet in the Louver!
I used to volunteer at a natural history museum with one of the biggest collection in the world and this is so shockingly true. Whenever i went to storage (which was in a building connected to the building where the actual museum was) they sometimes reminded me that this was just a 'small part' of the collection and that a big part was in a storage fascility x amount of km away outside of the city. The museum just doesn't have the man power to get trough studying all of their artifacts. They started digitalising their entire collection and it's a progress that is said to take over 10 years for the entomology collection alone. This just speaks to how science is treated nowadays by the state as it is of less importance to leaders to study dead animals and ancient artifacts and subsequently they underfund their institutions, aswell as it's a testiment to how we as a human race tend to over collect anything with a perceived value.
@@ysorandomxp9941 museums are the ultimate hoarders.
Yea I used to work in the museum world. They would rather make money off patrons and rich donors than hire historians and pay them a living wage to translate and restore artifacts.
Thats not the fault of the museums tho. I have friends in the field and work with Assyriologists and they are maniacs when it comes to translating all the unstudied material. Its just that there is so much and they are so few, as well as there not being enough funds to study all thats left unstudied. And when I say not enough funds I mean it: most of them work unpaid and in their free time because there is no money. This is (largely) not the museums fault either. So if you want to blame someone, blame the gouvernment for not allocating enough resources or funding only flashy but ultimately scientifically very limitied projects.
Why don’t they say, “We are going to return the everything to their rightful country of origin and maintain a collection of carefully crafted replicas to replace them, each paying homage to the original and the story of its return as part of the museum.”That would still allow the collection to inspire, and put them back in their rightful place. You could even document the replication as an art form of paying respect.
I’m going to answer my question by saying…. Money…. That’s why. All of those items hold huge value to the countries who own them… and they won’t let them go.
Not at all a bad idea. I want to add that in some cultures certain objects deemed sacred are not supposed to be displayed, photographed or replicated. But yes repatriation, the return of those objects, should always be the practice.
Who wants to see replicas though?
@@jerusareem actually, a lot of private collectors put replicas on display so the genuine object can be stored more safely.
@@Justin_Leahy I get that but we aren’t talking dinosaur bones here. No one is going to make a replica of a 1000 year old book. Look what happened in Syria during the uprising. So many sculptures and artifacts were destroyed by isis from the old ages that we will never get to see again. Some countries can’t take care of these things. I’m against these museums but I understand the need sometimes.
The part about stonehenge just being left outside in the rain ... I laughed so hard
“It’s got grass and shit on it…” 🤣
Its been there for thousands of years so that's fine, it's a suitable environment 🥲
I do wish they had touched on the problem of returning artifacts and antiquities to nation with active Islamic Fundamentalist groups destroying any and all non-Muslim artifacts. They claim they are "false idols". Should we return things from museums to countries where radicals in their population are actively destroying those things?
Cleaning with wire brushes and god knows what chemicals? What'd they clean it with? Air fresheners?
ok
It is absolutely a crime to plunder societies. I have been following you for decades now, and I feel like you are speaking my thoughts on every topic you address. I can also appreciate your sense of humor, or since you're British humour!
The Acropolis Museum is absolutely gorgeous and my first contact with the issues mentioned on this video. They have the Caryatides, which are female statues that adorned one of the temples at the Acropolis (Athena I think). And they display their four statues with a gap. The gap represents the fifth statue which is, surprise, at the British Museum. The museum guide told me they have the gap representing the fifth statue's place for when she is returned home. That always stuck with me and I found it so beautiful and sad.
Thanks, John, for covering this!
i think also in another museum in athens, there’s 8 statues of the muses. but there’s 9. guess where kalliope is.
and the 8 muses in athens are put in a line with a missing spot for kalliope to return to her sisters. she’s all alone in the british museum
@@paleblood70 She a rock. She feels nothing. there are people with actual problems in the world care would probably be better expressed towards.
@@thanesgames9685 so why do you even care? Just go out in real life, deal with real problems and give us our ''rocks''. That's a problem solved my ignorant friend.
I was also at the Acropolis Museum (one of the best museums I've ever been to) recently and I remember that there were straight up entire relief sculptures missing, nearly all of them were either destroyed by Christians or cut straight from the marble block and taken to the British Museum.
@@thanesgames9685 I find it insulting to assume that they can't feel bad for a stolen artifact and for current living people's misfortunes, you can be empathetic and feel bad towards multiple things. Also they don't feel bad for the nonsentient rock but for the PEOPLE AND CULTURE it was STOLEN from and the museum's complete unwillingness to give back those STOLEN artifacts. But you know, criticize someone for making a comment related to this video's topic and assume they don't at all feel bad for other people's situations happening around the world without knowing much about the person. They could just as easily be doing more than you but the idea didn't cross your mind and even if that's not the case and you do do more, you were still an ass to them.
The motto of these Museum’s is essentially “What’s yours is mine and what’s mine is mine too. If you shake my hand better count your fingers.”
"And check your rings, watch, and wallet. Maybe look in on your wife and kids, too."
This is worse than Communism LOL
Now THAT's a motto you can set your watch to
Did not expect a reference to friggin' Megadeth in the comments section of a Last Week Tonight video.
If they were left in Africa they wouldn't exist anymore
I went to a museum and saw the tiniest piece of a relief sculpture surrounded by an entire scene of replacement plaster. I always wondered how they could possibly tell what the rest of piece looked like, thinking this was the only surviving remnant. Now it makes sense.
Totally 🤔
So true!
I love that Kumail Nanjiani and Nick Offerman do educational PSAs in this show lol
One more infuriating thing about the "well it's on display and anyone can visit it" argument is that a lot of the artifacts were stolen from poor countries, where a trip to the UK can be prohibitively expensive. Where I am from it would cost roughly one third to one half of the median annual salary for a 1 week trip to the UK, and according to Google there are more than 100k artifacts from my country in UK museums. So the average person will likely never afford to go see them.
They mostly make the "Can't take care of it themselves" excuse with countries with a majority of people of color. 'cause gotta be racist on top of it. They aren't going to do that with France. Although doing it with Greece is a pretty bold move.
Still better that some people can see it and experts can study it than noone. Tell me what happened to Palmyra again? Or to Mosul museum and library? Tell me why most of the graves in Egypt are found empty? What happened to the thing from the graves when found by locals?
Especially when you consider how much sits in storage and is not in fact actually on display.
@@risharehraje793 You're comparing ancient crimes to modern looting. Not to mention, a lot of museums who want their artifacts back would gladly lend them out for study from experts.
So, what about all the shit just sitting in storage getting dusty with no one looking at them or even knowing it's down there. I can't count the number of times museums have lost artifacts in their own storage only to be rediscovered decades later because no one gave a damn to look for them in the first place. But we get it, you fully believe museums are good and blah blah. Bet you complain when Confederate statues are taken down
Well said!
I love that the whole point of the Solomon story is that when you truly love something you are willing to let it go to make sure it isn't harmed in the conflict of ownership. Meanwhile the British museum was very literally willing to hack the "baby" in half to get to keep a part of it. Like this is the absolutely worst story to make your case!
Jesus Christ died for our sins, rose from the dead, and gives salvation to everyone who has faith in him. True faith in Jesus will have you bear good fruit and *drastically* change for the better! Those led by the Holy Spirit do not abide in wickedness.
*God is ONE manifesting himself as THREE;* the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit! Bless him! *For these three are one.*
As I am led by the Holy Spirit, nothing I state is a lie, but the truth of God. Anyone who tells you differently is misinformed or a liar. They do not know God, nor led by him.
Anyone who *claims* to be a Christian and is against what I am doing, and where I am doing it; the Holy Spirit does not dwell within them, they lack understanding. They know not God, read his word, and their religion is in vain. Do not hear them, they will mislead you, the lost cannot guide the lost.
When you trust in God and cast your cares (worries, anxiety, depression, suicidal thoughts) upon him, they will be NO MORE!
Know that there is power in the name Jesus Christ! His name casts out demons and heals!
The world is wicked, evil, and of the devil.
I too, was a wicked sinner of the world before I opened my heart to God. I am living proof of God's work and fruitfulness! He is an active God who hears the prayers of his! God's children are set apart (holy) and righteous. The devil is a liar that comes to steal, to kill, and to destroy; that includes your relationship with God.
It reeks of “white man’s burden”
I was thinking EXACTLY that!
@@Call_Upon_YAH Cool story bro.
I have seen the marbles in Greece and the matching parts in the British Museum. There is no reason that the British Museum cannot make duplicates and return the originals.
There are art historian sculptors who would cry tears of joy if offered the chance to create those replicas.
A museum in my home town has plaster casts of the Elgin marbles. It was only in the last several years that I learned something about how little museums got many plaster casts--in many cases, the source was a museum that had started out with casts, but got their hands on the real thing, and no longer wanted the copies. I don't recall the details, but looting is ultimately responsible for many small museums getting quality copies.
Which makes me wonder--instead of getting involved with thieves, why aren't museums choosing to obtain quality copies, and leaving the originals where it belongs? It seems to me that the museums would save an awful lot of money by doing that, and avoid immoral dealings with crooks. Why not take those stolen artifacts, make good copies, and return them to where they were stolen from? Though plaster copies normally only reproduce the shapes, they could be made to match the colors, too, where that makes a difference. Of course, things like the Elgin marbles weren't originally plain stone, and the scrubbing they got destroyed a huge amount of information--they were originally painted--so we don't know exactly what they should look like anymore.
@@lggonda not to mention scanners and 3-d printers.
@@TheEudaemonicPlague I would expect it has to do with their business model; the only thing museums are selling is the premise of the "real thing", presumably old or even ancient. Replacing them with replicas entirely puts them firmly in the educational category, and people are just not paying for that.
@@Lodinn this is 100% not the case. Museums offer curation. They offer context, they offer relationships, they offer interpretations, they offer a whole lot more than just "the real thing". It's not so common to see copies of paintings in museums, but it could become the norm, just like it is really common to see replicas of fossils.
John Oliver is a treasure in and of himself. I really appreciate this video.
He belongs in a museum!
Oh wait...
@@rheiagreenland4714 😁
My hometown of Dresden is currently negotiating returning Benin Bronzes to Nigeria. Compared to the global stage, we are a small city and need the tourism - and yet, the Bronzes will be going home to Nigeria within the next year. If an unknown Eastern German town can deal with giving the Bronzes away, I'm sure the British Museum can handle a little morality.
Since you mentioned tourism, I thought I'd throw in I'm thinking of visiting Dresden from the UK soon! Looks like a lovely town
Ya but that’s a concept that can only be taught after lobotomy.. pus%#{%
calling Dresden an "unknown small city" is doing it a bit of a disservice, honestly. HOWEVER, that still means that the bronzes should be returned. Dresden has more than enough of it´s own local historic artwork and architecture to not need to rely on looted artifacts for tourism.
@@a.mcsweeney2547 It absolutely is, but some of the people living there can be a bit... offputting. I used to live there myself.
Awesome, would be nice of them to return the Mayan codices too!
My town is on a reservation in WY, and we have a large Arapahoe and Shohone community here. They deserve to have those items back in their possession. That segment hits home.
There are items belonging to a direct ancestor of mine in a museum in Virginia. I'm named after him. It's shitty - even if it doesn't go to me, it should belong to at least one of the branches of his family, or in the possession of the Muscogee tribe.
I had to skip that part, as soon as I saw the man awkwardly letting them into that grim looking building I knew it would be too much =(
They do. It's insult to a long list of injuries they can't even have these things back.
@@singletona082 and if they got these relicks back how long would they last how long would people care bout it . non vs thousands of visitors going home thinking bout it .
@@tobiascarlsson5967 So theft then telling those people that they won't care for these thigns is perfectly OK?
We are in irreconcileable disagreement.
When I was a preteen, my hometown museum hosted a British Museum exhibit. It was deeply moving to witness room after room of stunning artifacts… and then I came to a huge wooden Buddha head, the plaque of which indicated that it had been removed from a statue. Somewhere out there was a headless statue, hundreds of years old and of great spiritual significance to any number of people. Who decided they could do without it? In that awful moment I realized many of the items around me had been stolen in one way or another. I’m of Greek descent so I should have known this from the start. I finished my tour of the exhibit with horrified eyes. John Oliver and team have done an excellent job once again. Love the closing skit. F U, ongoing colonialism!
The French museum to that guy: “you’re trying to acquire what I have rightfully stolen”.
Not really they've been returning quite a lot lately
@@murphy7801Good for them! Doesn’t make that French dude in the vid any less of an asshole tho
The solomon's law guy is actually pretty funny. If an arbiter came in and said they will split the artifact in half and give one to the museum and one to the country the artifact rightfully belongs to, the museum would happily agree while the country would protest vehemently.
Yes! And most of these dictators crying foul about their "history" would turn around and sell those objects to the highest bidder regardless of their ability to care for the objects. These objects were considered trash until the British carefully restored and collected them.
@@M123Xoxo do you have literally a single source on that? Also half the elgin marbles are already being kept in Greece (not a dictatorship)
@@firstnamelastname-oc9cq isis literally did this
@@M123Xoxo You mean all the statues in their temples were treated like "trash"? Uh huh...
Yeah, the museum will happily have it without the feet
I remember reading an article about a reservation whose totem pole was taken; like it was there and then one day it suddenly wasn't. When one of the kids grew up, they saw it in a museum along with like, a blanket their aunt made, and went to touch it (the totem pole) like they always did as a child and were told they couldn't. And they were like "...but that's my family's..."
It's really messed up how much stuff is in museums because of looting. I'm all for museums sharing stuff around so that more people can see the stuff, but not for museums to completely take the heritage of other countries so that they don't even have their own anymore. And especially the stuff that isn't even on display should be returned to the rightful owners.
I mean, isn't that what replicas are for? So the original stays where it belongs and other countries/museums can display replicas instead unless there's a traveling exhibit
well museums are basically our show-off placec of the items we stole from others. Small items are in themed, local museums, paintings are in art gallieries, but museums are for the things that were misplaced from their origin. Cameron was correct by saying they would be empty if the stolen loot was gave out.
It's sad reality.
The real qeuestion is... whe tf dont we replace originals with well made copies and give the originals back? Seriously, we need profesionals even scientists to determine if something is real and not fake, why not display only fakes of things that do not belong to you? what is the downside?
In the spirit of absolute fairness (though not excusing this example), the museum could have been simply carrying on a common policy regarding artifacts in their collections. I'm sure you know about 'finger oils', for lack of a better term, which, over time, can very effectively destroy paint, varnish, and other things that have been applied to objects, and also degrade the surface of organic materials like wood. Even though this mainly applies to paintings, if there was paint on the totem pole (or even if there wasn't), I can see a museum attendee not wanting it to be touched by anyone.
@@abercrombieblovs2042 Absolutely true, I agree.
However, (and this isn't a rant at you just a spring board for my own thoughts around this😂🙌🏻) wouldn't it be 'absolutely fair' to let each country/culture practice preserving the artefacts of their own culture however they deem fit? The point is it's rightfully theirs and it was stolen. If the owners want to use it for its original use until paint wears off that's their prerogative (just like the sacred statue from Nepal) - because it's rightfully theirs. At the end of the day this is as a result of the age old Western habit fetishising anything exotic simply because they are 'exotic.' I can't think of any other word to describe the practice (and the fact that it's still ongoing) other than pure human GREED.
I think humans often put way too much value into objects to be honest - but there is no denying their importance to history and history tells us about ourselves and where we came from which is incredibly significant at a generational level. So everyone should get the chance to do it their way and every country should be allowed to benefit from their OWN history. I mean I couldn't stop thinking about how much money these museums have made just off of the tourism attracted by these objects- a lot of the countries they stole from could have been benefiting economically from these themselves. And all the stuff in storage?? I can't believe the hoarding mentality is worth more to hold onto than letting a culture thrive off of heritage they have never had the privilege to lay their eyes on. Imagine how many tribes around the world have completely lost practices they don't even know about that are sitting being 'represented' in the dark.
er, chances are a native aboriginal was the one who took the items and then sold them... it's actually very common. Not that it makes the purchase okay but... maybe thin that blame a bit and make sure half goes right back to the ones who sold their own heritage.
@@jaspermartin7444 Oh yeah that's probably true as well. I wonder what that ratio would be...Stolen:Sold items?
Perhaps the lack of legitimate provenance on most of these items would make the truth difficult to find.
Seeing those Eastern Shoshone and Northern Arapaho people looking at their history that has been locked away in a basement is one of the saddest things I've seen in a long time.
And that shiteating grin on the guy that's showing those things to them was pretty infuriating.
Isn't it kind of odd they don't have those thing themselves though? Those items are literally things their not so distant ancestors owned. Why don't they have a plethora of them?
@Benjamin robinson If an item is scared or a family heirloom "making a new one" doesn't take away the lost memories.
@@princesstriceestar No one alive in any of those countries have any real connection to those artifacts. They just want them back so they can make money off of them. If they were worthless no one would give a rats ass.
@@benjaminrobinson9140 I bet you couldn't find your way out of a wet paper sack, even with a pickaxe.
I love John Oliver and I love this piece in particular. I worked on a Masters in Anthropology focused on curator mentalities around ownership of African artefacts and human remains stored in European museums, from a university in South Africa (I’m American-born but wanted to work from the other side of the conversation).
One thing Oliver doesn’t really touch on here that could be a fascinating follow-up is the effect of animism and traditional beliefs on ownership concerns over “artefacts” in museum collections. One of my professors explained to me that, given animism, many objects on display in the North are viewed by communities in the South as having living souls. These are living, feeling prisoners of long-ago wars locked in glass cases or stored on industrial shelving. Others are, like the Benin Bronzes, spiritual objects related to cultural identity but kept so far from their communities that they cannot serve their purpose.
That’s before you even get to actual physical human remains, which Oliver briefly touches on here without really getting into the scope of how many human bodies are stored at Northern institutions (both museums and, terrifyingly, universities). One national collection in Europe has literally thousands of skulls removed from what is now Rwanda for study, all to “prove” African skull sizes were smaller and thus that African people were less intelligent. Human remains that ought to be respectfully interred in their home soil kept in a museum ethnography collection to bolster outdated, harmful, willfully ignorant racist ideologies. There are repatriation efforts underway in this case, but they keep encountering delays. And that is merely 1 further example beyond the excellent reporting already in this piece.
This is such a mess. Northern countries with a colonial past should not be leading these conversations or setting the pace. The countries and communities of origin should have that power. Repatriation moves much more quickly with public visibility. Don’t let up on the pressure!! We can effect change if we simply act.
As someone from Mexico who knows there's a _shitload_ of Prehispanic artifacts scattered around the world, it makes me happy John Oliver talked about this topic. Hopefully we'll see the day when each historical relic is placed back in their place of origin and kept safely for the years to come. Alas, I might be too optimistic.
Costa Rican here. i feel the exact same way
@@Gurianthe I want to see all the skeletons of the people sacrificed by Mayans and Aztecs.
i recently learned that my dad was partially taino (a peaceful tribe indigenous to the Caribbean that forcibly integrated with slaves and colonists because they were hunted out of their homes and enslaved) and that there is fortunately a taino tribe in Boriken (also known by its colonist name Puerto Rico) that is fighting for government recognition and keeping the language alive. recently an auction house in europe called Christie auctioned off ancestor spirit homes (zemis) for millions, calling these zemi's and cooking utensils "exotic artifacts of an extinct peoples" meanwhile the tribe was fighting to get them returned. they ended up selling almost half of it to private collectors and put the rest in storage and said that the these personal incredibly sacred pieces were "gifts" and given in "good faith".
LOL so the cartels can destroy them in the next war?
Fuck all these weird comments except the one about the Caribbean.
"If you say yes to one you suddenly find the British museum would be empty"...this is not frustrating, this is an apt and acurate description :D
As it should be, 😂
To be fair a lot more culture was lost through the Benin's royal family's enslavement of other africans for the market in the Americas. Not an excuse for Britian stealing from them though
which honestly a) doesn't make that much sense. I mean the Great Britain has a long history in itself? I'm sure there are countless priceless artifacts from British history.
and b) I'm also sure they already do exchanges with other museums (since many museums do). so they could still do these kind of exhibitions, just not a continuous ones.
(also, I would imagine that if other countries (or more specifically the museums etc. in those) gained more trust (due to the European/US museums returning ancient pieces), there would probably dozens of artifacts that they could still keep on display)
@Muriel Torres just saying - Nigeria owes most African Americans a big apology. Have a nice day mate
@@xxxaragon Well grass is greener on the other side, artifacts of other cultures forcibly taken from their land holds more value that the older version of stuff that they already have.
I am at a loss of words to say how incredible John Oliver is .Thank you for shedding a light on these stories.
*at a loss for words
@@valeriemacphail9180 thanks
John, is this you? 😆
@@sikalindgren 👍👍
And Kumail was perfect as the curator of the Payback Museum!
I was equal parts outraged, laughing and remorseful.
One of the best programmes you ever presented John, amongst a very selective lot. Thank you ! As an art lover, this is really food for thought and could almost turn ones perceptions of art galleries and museums on its head. The truth it seems is never pleasant but it is essential for us to remain human.
Thank you for covering this.
Here in Greece the marbles are called the Parthenon marbles, because they are part of the Parthenon, while in Britain they call them Elgin marbles, because they think they are part of Lord Elgin.
Nah, we also call them as Parthenon marbles. And i personally want it to go back to Athens because it's incomplete.
I, too, would like to see them go back to Athens. Religious buildings should not be dismantled piecemeal for the aesthetics of foreigners, even if hardly anyone practices the specific religion anymore. It's just not right.
@@organicfarm5524 How about wanting for them to go back because it's the fucking right thing to do and not because it's incomplete?
The Stonehenge reveal was great. Really sold the point. So many of the art weasels in this piece could have their attitude summarized by the comment, "Yes, but then WE wouldn't have it anymore." So much of their PERSONAL and institutional prestige comes from having that thing, being in charge of that thing and boast about that thing. Their resumes and books will credit them and associate them with the thing. But I can almost guarantee another issue, finance. A lot of those museums will include those objects in their valuation, and for funding. The material value of the collection is part of what helps them get the money to keep acquiring and preserving MORE stuff. Governments don't want to pay for them, many are expected to fend for themselves. They are NOT going to want to give that stuff up, and pride, greed and fear will all play a part in that.
John mentioned a really good example of a solution. Dig the stuff out of basement vaults, repatriate the stuff to its native country via a contracted loan to a tour. That tour allows MANY museums to sell tickets, draw customers and let a lot of people see and learn about the artifacts and their history. But that tour can be under the charge of the museum of the country the artifact will eventually be returned to, with a large amount of the revenue being dedicated to permanent facilities for the artifact's preservation and security IN ITS HOME COUNTRY. The stuff is put on track to get home, while museums gain a publicity boost and ticket sales from a long series of tours, which helps pay for the restoration and permanent display of the artifact. That seems like the start of a win/win deal, anyway.
As a Mexican, I would have liked to see the case of Moctezuma's headpiece at least mentioned... It's in Austria, and when asked to give it back, they always give the same response: "you cannot guarantee it will be safely transported and kept". Seems like it is the ultimate answer all museums can think about!!!
That's such a bad excuse too....If Austria is so concerned about transportation and preservation then they should make sure it is safely transported and perhaps give resources to ensure it's "kept "well.
more important than that are the codices detailing our pre columbian history. not only was our language, culture taken from us but the history of our people. though we be mixed peoples we are still native american.
bruh... haven't them failed art school people never heard of DHL?! Dalsey,Hillblon and Lynn? CMON!
You don't get to demand something that you were warned was an expensive liability, then demand the other guy foot the bill bc it turns out you can't.
If you REALLY care about it, you'll leave it where it is until you're ready.
Well, they can't really guarantee that the Museum in Austria isn't ever going to be hit by a natural disaster or terrorist attack or just fire.
In all honestly: any curator or restaurateur of such pieces would probably get a minor panic attack at the thought of 'their' beloved baby being taken away an on a dangerous journey to some far-away place where nobody knows about their dietary needs ... ahem, the perfect storage conditions (light, temperature, humidity ...).
The problem is:
1 - It's not like museums wouldn't still transport pieces between each other for exhibitions, and if Austrian experts really has doubts about the expertise in, say, the Mexico City National Museum of Anthropology, then they can simply collaborate and send their own technicians along as advisors.
2 - more importantly: it's not "their" baby. Yes, it probably feels like it when you've been responsible for it for years, but it's not.
In the end, returning it is the only ethical course of action.
Just create a super-duper copy, exhibit that with a plaque that the original is now in Somewhere else, Mexico, because we decided to do the right thing. (Possibly after trying everything else.)
As a college student studying library sciences (for rare books) and museum studies… this video made me cry.
I lived near the British Museum in the 80s, almost every time I walked by there was some protest outside and they were all different as far as I could tell. I went back to London in the early 2000s and still there were protesters out front. It's not a secret, I heard the exact same stories from the protesters as on your show tonight. It's the accepted practice. How many traces of colonial times are there still in modern society?
They are celebrating and displaying their long cultural heritage of taking other peoples stuff.
"How many traces of colonial times are there still in modern society?"
_gestures around broadly_
I’m not British but I think they should keep their stuff.
@@AWSVids i know, right? traces? Try the whole damn thing.
Modern society is wrapped in and built on colonialism.
I'm an archaeologist and this issue is heavily discussed amongst ourselves, in favor of repatriation and respect, (at least here in Sweden, though this problem is still present at our museums) and is one of the first things students are asked to discussed. The issue is so bad, I'd like to give an example.
Last year my university was involved in a archaeological project (in collaboration with the local archaeologists) in southern Portugal in the mountain region of Monchique (our project was focused on identifying artifacts which may be evidence for a working theory about late stone age trading and interconnection). A lot has to do with tourism. The entire region is basically a giant necropolis, featuring burials and sites dating back to the stone age and later. The sites we excavated were actually revealed after the forest fires in 2019. Even then the site we worked on turned out to have been looted, several times, over time, possibly starting with the Romans 2 millennia ago,
The local archaeologists also try and identify potential sites by asking the locals about what they have seen. The thing is that the locals are very hesitant, with good cause, about even mentioning anything because they fear that anything of value will be excavated and shipped off to Faro institutions (about 100km away) never to be seen again - which has definitely happened before. The region is relatively poor to the rest of Portugal, and if anyone should be making money off of tourism based archaeology it should be the locals. If rich white tourists want to gawk at least they should patronize the local economy, not another city with an international airport.
Despite the appalling nature and the consensus between archaeologists (in favor of respectfully preserving archaeology at their origin), at higher levels of decision-making (often political) regarding the fate of these artifacts, the amount of money that rich douchebags offer for plunder makes it difficult for locals to dissuade these sort of actions because most of the time it's other locals that are driven by financial gain they must contend with.
Some countries are better at handling this, for instance, in Italy, archaeological sites are always accompanied by a special police that search all those involved in a project at the end of each day. I don't know exactly how effective it is, but at least it's something.
Ultimately it all falls on the people with lots of money putting on the demand. Large western museums are some of the largest actors in this because their financial security is predicated on having streams of new content to attract visitors. Of course, fueling it further, there is the antiquities trade alongside it - like other "fine" arts this is just a means to launder money. Money, money, cash monies.
If people in our time are willing to kill, enslave and sell other people for money, then its safe to assume that nothing is safe from money. This issue is one of the many appalling symptoms of the global culture of greed and callous disrespect of cultures.
Thank you, I agree, and I am very happy to hear this is a central issue discussed among the students. It is complicated and the world we live in is sadly very driven by short term thinking and greed. But the more relevant and mainstream an issue becomes the more likely it is to be given importance and finally solved.
Several municipalities in that area have museums. All municipalities actually have at least one: the traditional Museu Municipal. Those people you talk probably never went into one. Knowing some Monchiquenses, they are probably afraid you're taking something they could sell themselves.
Talks of repatriation and better communication with indigenous tribes are becoming more common in the US, at least where I went to school. There's still a lot of room for improvement, obviously, but I think we're starting to get better. We try to have as much tribal input on every project we undertake, but it can still be a struggle.
@CABALlc1 money is destroying the world, cent by piddling cent. SMMFH.
So, what is the correct answer for the question of "How many years must pass for it to begin being 'Archeology' and stop being 'Grave Robbing'?"
love the idea of a Payback Museum
i apriciats this journalism
TimeBucks is a really very good income site
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The part I find most upsetting is that in American schools (unsure about European education), Africa’s history is constantly overlooked as though they lacked culture and society. Often as a way to excuse and justify colonialism and slavery.
But the culture and societal history was either stolen or destroyed throughout the continent.
I feel so lucky that while i was in high school i took the elective called AFRICAN EXPERIENCE. Which i think is pretty progressive for the sometimes backward Pennsylvania
That version of the history of colonised African states was by design. Colonialists justified their land grab by saying that there was no "civilisation" evident and the people were "savages". So tearing down the cities, universities, castles and churches was systematic, then they simply wrote the history books. Always question history books, always ask who wrote them. By the way, Ethiopia is one country that managed to retain it's cultural heritage. When you visit there, you'll understand just how much the world has lost because of the greed of the Europeans.
@janellimarie, Why single out African history? How much South American history did you learn in high school? How much Russian history? Mexican? Canadian? You basically learn *U.S. history* in grade school, and only enough of other countries as it pertains to U.S. history.
@@leavingitblank9363hi South African here (proud BRICS supporter) we actually learn about this in grade 10 history and we go into great detail about Russia and China and Vietnam and Cuba in grade 11 and about native American and Indigenous Nordic and Australian people
Edit: we learn the history of our allies and beyond almost none of which pertaining to South Africa as we learn almost all of South African history from grade 3 to 9 leaving us with room to learn about other countries. Also the word elective implies that the Original Commenter was in Uni when they learned that. And isn't America suffering with education gaps
@@firstnamelastname153 First, the OC didn't use the term "elective"-- that was the first responder to the OC. (Maybe that's what you're calling the OC. Regardless...) The OC mentioned "...in American schools (unsure about European education)...." I responded to the OP, not the first comment, which is why my comment referred to U.S. schools. Second, grade school students in the U.S. have elective options. Besides, she mentioned "when I was in high school". So, not uni. (I have to wonder how you manage to study "in great detail" the culture and history of at least 7 different groups/countries in just two years. I took several uni semesters on native North American cultures and barely scratched the surface. Knowing a little can be dangerous, because you don't know how much you don't know.)
The impact of this whole piece culminating in Kumail Nanjiani's comment about Gerald Ford's ribs is profound and so understated! Well done LWT!! (Ps Kumail's delivery is masterful!)
couldn't agree more.
No it's not, lol. Very few would give a fuck.
Yes of course
I was wondering if he was Taika Waititi 😅
As a South Asian, I thank John for bringing this age old issue up just in case people have forgotten about it. Our politicians surely has!
indian subcontinent not south asia, euro is also part of asia continent but they declaired there subcontinent a different continent
@@user-hq8wm8giyujcg It depends on what you mean with continent africa asia and europe is one continent or 3 depending on how you define things.
@@user-hq8wm8giyujcg As someone from the area now referred to as Europe, I would be completely fine with naming Europe "Western Asia" from now on.
@@rvdb7363 its not about naming, call ur region Europe, i dont care. Its about calling that region a continent, its not but a subcontinent
@@user-hq8wm8giyujcg No it is not a subcontinent the continent if you want to add asia africa and europe togheter has a name it is called afroeurasia also known as the old world.
There is different definitions of continent europe asia and africa classify as continents.
But they also all do not classify as continents, there is a similar deal with America by the way.
“You can’t judge us in the present based on what we did in the past” ok, but in the present you are openly choosing to keep items you know are stolen, and yes, we can absolutely judge you for that
No, you cant, because you live on stolen land yourself. If you never owned it, nor your parents or grandparents never owned it, you have no claim to it. This argument of perpetuity is idiotic.
If any of the countries complaining about looted goods had illicitly obtained western artifacts they would not in a million years return them.
@Skozerny cool story lady
@@Skozerny I'm not sure you grasped what OP was saying. But how silly is the idea of land ownership? Imagine someone saying, "This piece of dirt is mine, and mine alone... For the span of time between my paying off the bank mortgage, and my death... And as long as I can pay the taxes on it... so about 10 years if I'm lucky..." And that's only ownership in the eyes of the state.
You make a valid point. Individuals might be granted some grace period where we won't judge them for mistakes made in the past from which they have since learned. (Well, we'll always judge them, as humans that's how we are, but some of us might forgive, or count time served as punishment.) But institutions which span centuries are (and must be) held to a different standard. Like the Museum of London can say, "Don't judge us for past mistakes," but only once they have actively rectified those mistakes. Certainly not while they are still making, and actively profiting, off of those mistakes.
You know, it really speaks to the quality of this show that you can just watch episodes of it again and again. Even if there already a good bit old.
The ridiculous part is, that there is a well established and functioning lease and lend economy for museums. Most countries are very, very open to lending out artworks to other countries museums to share their culture around the world, even indefinitely.
It's fine if the countries of origin agree to that arrangement, the issue here are the objects that the countries want returned.
@@Kap00rwith2os I'm pretty sure that's their point. These museums could hold and display these objects ethically, they just don't bother to go through the process of returning them and then getting lending permission.
Its a weird business practice acquiring art and cultural objects through conquest or illegal trade and then making money on them not only by displaying them but also renting them out to other museums. That would be like stealing objects from your neighboring city and making money on its display and renting it out for others to display. And the sad thing is seeing people, who work for the museums, or profit from this practice, actively defend the museums claim the objects despite the obvious dubious morality of it, all in the name of profits. Every time i see someone say something so crazy or defend the indefensible i have to stop and say "Well, whos profiting from this" and once you follow the money trail, it all makes a dark sense.
@@Salvanas42 why would I lease what is rightfully mine?
The only time I saw the cylinder of cyrus in my country (iran) it was when the Brits had "loanded" it to us
James Acaster's take on this is beautiful. "Can we have it back? NO! We're not done looking at it yet?"
the start of his routine is great too. "imagine someone stole something from you. It is not question they did, they're not even hiding it. In fact, they're doing the opposite of hiding it. They are literally putting it _on_ _display_ in their home"
"Here at the British Museum, we don't believe in erasing the mistakes of the past."
"Can I return it then?"
"Nice try but we don't believe in returns either."
“We can’t return your art and culture because otherwise we wouldn’t have our own” is the most depressingly hilarious line I’ve ever heard.
Anglosaxon imperialistic logic right here
That’s one of the most frustrating parts of this. In playing “World Heritage Curator” the British Museum and similar institutions are missing the opportunity to focus solely on their own heritage
@@sassafrassiest or maybe they are focusing on their own heritage, their own heritage of looting and plundering the rest of the world. 🤷
No one made that claim, so you haven't heard it in the first place.
All the conservative bitching about white culture, and this is an admission they ain't got shit.
I just lost my best fur friend last year and it was devastating as it always is. Being an adopter of older pets, ive been through this heartbreak many times. All we can do is give them the best lives possible and and pass on the love they give us. So sorry for your loss farron. So glad those two kittens landed in the right hands.
I'm an archaeology/anthropology student and, thank you so much for talking about this. It's such a huge issue. So many artefacts are just sitting in storage, in refrigerated/temp controlled rooms, in boxes and drawers, where people rarely go. I've been back into one of those rooms; I saw beautiful Clovis points, pristine sandals, baskets, and a bunch more, and all were in storage. Permanently. It's so sad, and that was just a small museum - I love museums but it's heartbreaking to know that there are so many more pieces of history hiding away, so far from home, never to be seen again. It's awful. And while I love museums, those artefacts should go home.
And then they go and they put in history books that tribal people were savages who lived hard lives trying to survive. People don't have time to make such beautiful fine works of art if they're struggling to survive. The British spent hundreds of years destroying culture around the world. And now white countries try to lie about history, when it was the white man who lived in squalor and disease, being barbaric and filthy and immoral. When they traveled outside their own lands they saw how good everybody else was living and they hated it. They were jealous. So they stole as much as they could and they tried to rule over as much as they could. But instead of gaining the knowledge of the people they tried to rule over and steal from, they did their best to destroy it. Now our world has lost so much knowledge that we used to have, and it's all because of white countries in the past wanted to steal and own everything. They were unhappy with what little they could create on their own.
As an Indian this breaks my heart, the fact that the Nepali dealer will have consequences but none of the museums who bought it will 😢
Should've fought harder
"What painting? All I have is a fireplace with ash..."
This is the only way to fight. Otherwise, the theft will never end.
Yeah it's totally unfair that Iditarod culture and items are taken. more so cuz the different Indian cultures and groups didn't resort to pillaging and looting when Victor's in conflict. luckily they didn't otherwise there might be some awful double standards going on here....
@@dannydanhammer8725 Two wrongs make a right? Wow brb bout to go steal some shit from the Natural History museum!
Very true. Only guilt of the same crime or less when you’re POC
The rows of shelves in that museum basement felt like a cultural cemetery
that's exactly what they are
If they were returned, where do you think people would keep them? They would still be in boxes. That isn't the bad part.
@@TacticusPrime Completely missed the point. Who tf cares? It’s not Britain’s/America’s to steal and keep.
@@TacticusPrime nahh if you returned something that is mine i would absolutely cherish it more
ok
Its so gross how often they default to the age old argument that "the law," which was written by thieves to legalize their plunder, is on their side. Really feels like "we were the aggressor, we stole it fair and square, and they couldn't do anything about it" wrapped up in a prim and proper facade, and feels very pompous.
Libraries of law books written for this exact purpose
Have you seen the Acropolis Museum in Athens? It's a huge display of modern architecture. It's perfectly equipped to host it's own cultural history.
Not only that. The Acropolis museum is a pleasure to walk in with proper lighting, historical context and explanations. Beside being literally beside the Acropolis where many of the statues and reliefs resided. Conversely, the British museum is an old style museum that only masses artifacts without giving proper context. Especially the acropolis room is gloomy and really fails to convey the beauty of the group.
@@jd0604 racist
@@jd0604 Nobody is arguing that the museums shouldn't exist. They'll still have a lot of stuff after they've given back the stolen things, and things can be loaned from one museum to another.
@@jd0604 that’s literally the stupidest comment I’ve seen. It’s GREEK inheritance and it’s needed to be exhibited at the museum of Acropolis. Our history was stolen and Britain is just making excuses . That hideous woman is comparing the Greeks to an abusive mother? For real ? If you want to see the Greek exhibits and find out about Greek mythology save some money and visit Greece . I was crying about half an hour when I saw caryatid in LONDON. I was furious .
@@jd0604 bet the people to whose countries and histories they belong would appreciate it more than you.
The whole segment reminds me of the scene from Black Panther with Erik Killmonger in the British Museum. The whole heist and him asking the museum curator " How do you think your ancestors got these?" was so powerful to watch. Great segment as always.
and then it went south pretty fast after yhat
I was thinking of the same part throughout the entire video.
And he immediately showed why the artifacts had to be taken from his culture. Listen, don’t use black panther ad an example of anything. It’s a turd of a movie made by a company that wants your money. Be smarter than that
@@ILoveGrilledCheese and how did Killmonger show the vibranium tool had to be taken from Wakanda? So it would be in a museum more vulnerable to theft than a hidden nation with futuristic technology?
I was actually in a historical research methods and ethics class when Black Panther came out and I remember the first class after the release date my prof came in radiating with glee and changed the whole syllabus around to cover museum and archeological ethics.
I have taught in an MLIS Program in the United States since 1991. Throughout all of these years, I have encouraged students to read about and examine the ethics of collecting and retaining cultural items. I am adding your review of these issues to my list of required readings/viewings the next time this topic is discussed. Looking forward to part two.
well if you stole continents why nit pic bout the smaller things
”If I have to return the some of the stuff I stole then I might have to give it all back”
Terrible argument
“How long does someone have to be dead before it’s okay to hoard their body parts in museum storage? Really, how long?” Great, haunting question. 😢
Dumb question actually.....it is when everybody who had a emotional real live connection to you is also dead.
ok
@@karlcarlsen9664 no the answer is fucking never
@@jvillanueva2978 we would have vastly undermined our medical, and anthropological, knowledge such that the practice of modern medicine would not exist if we did not keep at least some cadavers for research. also it's A ok to keep body parts in a museum if there are no cultural or personal conflicts involved.
@@jvillanueva2978 For someone who want to get brownie points that is the right position. But you also would have to close the Nationalmuseum in Kairo and end excavations in Egypt or any anthropologic and genetic research and testing. I am sure the Neandertaler community is happy for your position.
Shout out to University of Aberdeen for looking inward and looking to repatriate items they wrongfully acquired. That is tremendous. Giving items back you shouldn't possess without being asked or the rightful owner even knowing you have them is HUGE.
It's a sad state that honesty is so highly praised. It's a kindergarten age rule, and the thing is, we all know it's so highly praised because a large chunk of the aristocracy and rulers of the world operate on a system of half truths and backdoor deals.
I prefer Scotts to Brits
@@EnviroSteward Based Chad Pro-Scottish Anti-Anglo-Saxon
"Can we have our stuff back?" "I don't know. I'm not sure you can even prove it is your stuff." "Yes, I can. You put it in a display case, with a little placard VERY EXPLICITLY STATING THAT IT IS MY STUFF"
The British Museum in a nutshell
It is more nuanced than that. Britain has the Rosetta stone because we took it off a French warship that we defeated in the Napoleonic wars. Napoleon had a good old loot when he was there. Also, there are some things in the museum that were sold in good faith by the governments of the time and now the modern governments want it back. I am not against it in principle but if that happens, then the French, Spanish , American etc museums plus private collections, should give their stuff back too. I am sure there are British treasures in foreign museums. The Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York has a whole 'British' floor.
😁
Meh... not quite. One thing to note about the Benin Bronzes is that they are Benin, not Nigerian. Benin has been eaten by Nigeria but the bronzes would be returned to Nigeria, not Benin.
The past is a distant shore. The owners and creators of these treasures are LONG dead. Those who happen to be born on the same ground in modern times have no more claim than those who are actually descended from the creators who were driven from their ancestral lands. Modern Egyptians are unrelated to the builders of the Pyramids. The Roman empire looted the shit out of Britain. Should modern Mexico return the art of the Incas to their few remaining descendents?
All this fighting over old shit is averice and prestige and nothing more.
@@AnonEyeMouse The video explained that it's far more than that, and you chose to ignore it.
"Well we can't give it back. We're still looking at it!"