Your explanation is not correct. The E61 has a built in preinfusion system which works by lifting the lever up all the way. There is a third valve that reduces the pressure on the coffee puck until it’s fully closed. Using the half way position of the lever is not a design feature as far as I know.
Hey Majos, I've pinned your comment so that this discussion is more visible. First, to clarify: The manual pre-infusion step is an intentionally designed function of the E61 group head. The cam is made to have a resting point that allows the brew valve to be open without the lever activating the pump switch. This is a big part of what makes E61 groups so wonderful, as you get to manually control pre-infusion if you wish by using line pressure. The crux of the issue here is defining what pre-infusion truly is. Something as simple as a flow restrictor (like the gicleur in an E61 group head) could be considered a form of pre-infusion since there will always be an air gap above the puck that takes time to fill with water. Most wouldn't consider a flow restrictor a form of pre-infusion since its effects are rather minor and every machine has some form of flow restriction. We could consider the other end of the spectrum to be fully manual flow control like on a La Marzocco GS3 MP. The pre-infusion chamber on an E61 group certainly falls somewhere between those two and can certainly be referred to as a form of pre-infusion. Considering how mild its effect is we don't think it matches up with what baristas popularly define as pre-infusion today. Hope that clears up our intention with this video, glad to chat more. - Charles
@@clivecoffeeYou are right, that water is incompressible. Thats why there is a chamber to which the water can go first. There is a schematic representation of the E61 group head on this site: www.coffeeitalia.de/blog/E61Gruppe. It shows the preinfusion valve and the preinfusion chamber. When the lever is pulled all the way up the preinfusion chamber is filled with water, reducing the pressure on the coffee until it is fully filled. Only then the full pressure is reached. This is the preinfusion mechanism I was referring to.
You can also see this by monitoring the brew pressure, in case the machine has an indicator for this. The pressure will remain at about 4 bar for a while and then go up to 10 bar. It is described in the original patent by Ernesto Valente patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/d1/85/b9/89f160b54199f9/US3230974.pdf "When the pres sure in the chamber 14 reaches (in the case in question) 1.5 atms. this pressure overcomes the power of the spring 8 and the sealing device 7 becomes detached from the Seat. But in the supposition in question, the sealing device 10 remains in off position. As the hot water still arrives in 14, this water, little by little, fills the cavity 9. After this filling, the pressure in 14 and above the coffee powder contained in the filter, rapidly increases under the action of the pressure in 3, and then the infusion is distributed"
@@majos I'm 99% sure you're wrong. The manual for both the profitec 700 and synchronika which uses E61 says preinfusion is done by partially elevating the brew lever.
@@tommos1 But the fact is, that the original patent by the inventor of the E61 does not mention this at all but only describes the pre-infusion chamber as mentioned above. patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/d1/85/b9/89f160b54199f9/US3230974.pdf My Quickmill machine with E61 has a half-way resting position which does not do anything. When I lift it a little bit further, water comes out of the group head, while the pump button is not pressed yet. But it is not in the resting position and does not feel like a design feature. There is a lot of discussion around on the internet whether this position has a designed purpose or not and many argue that flowing water in the resting position is due to a misalignment of the cam. I am sure that some manufacturers (profitec and ecm are the same german manufacturer) see this as a feature but I stick with my point: it is not mentioned in the technical design by the inventor Ernesto Valente.
I use a variable fan switch with my machine to achieve this and it works great (it also gives me the ability to pressure profile my shots). I'm not an espresso expert but in my experience it brews a shot that isn't harsh or sour. It's very balanced and it helped me learn to taste for sweetness in espresso. I'm trying to keep my coffee setup cheap so I'm thinking of getting a Flair next.
@@pete9894 thanks for the tip. I'm debating between the Flair and a LaPavoni Europiccola. The difference being that the LaPavoni had a boiler. It'll cost at least $600 but I won't have to worry about heating up all the parts of the Flair each. Still weighing my options.
Pretty sure those distributors don't really do anything besides smooth out the top of the coffee, it's not evenly compacted or distributed all the way through, the best way to do that is either by poking / stirring up the coffee especially if you got a clumpy grinder or distributed all the coffee to one side, but I find what works for me if I do it carefully, is with my tamper, I do a nutation motion circling around the edges in the basket like using a joystick, then I make sure the tamper is level and do the tamp. The most important part is just tamping the coffee straight and not at an angle.
My ecm synchronika is a E61 machine. I was told that when I use reservoir, there's no in-fusion fuction as I lift the handle half way up. Only I use in-line water. The pressure of in-line water will kick in the infusion. As I only use reservoir, it is true that I cannot implement in-fusion technique in my shot. Because when I lift the handle halfway, there's no water coming out from the group head.
Wether or not it is good or bad (I love it), my Rocket R58 does not release water at the 45 degree point. You have to go higher, maybe 60 degrees up. I had to back the switch up into the machine so that the pump doesn’t turn on too early. It took me some time, but now it preinfuses perfectly. Just FYI about the 45 degrees - I guess not all machines release house pressure water at that angle.
Wow great vid guys really helpful I have a German machine that is lacking English instructions lol So trying to work out what best setting for pre infusion would be it’s sitting around 6 seconds currently. My friends slayer machine is 30sec that’s too long but may increase mine to see if I get a better shot Well explained thank you
They do, but this is more like a slower pre- pre infusion lol :D Also I found it doesn't automatically start dripping when half way, you need to carefully go a bit further just before the pump engages it will start dripping just from brew boiler pressure, it works on a non plumbed machine and I believe most plumbed ones work similarly, maybe some work the way they demonstrated here where half-way starts the flow, but I've seen other videos (and my own E61 machine) does not work that way.
Hey! Start with the FC paddle fully closed, lift the brew lever up all the way to start your shot, and then move the FC paddle slightly to the right. You will get the hang of this the more you use it.
If a shot recipe is for a 30second shot time, assuming you start the timer when you hit the button/pull the leaver (not when you see the first drips of espresso). Would you include the pre-infusion time in the 30s or not?
I have a direct plumbed E61 machine fed thru a filter and pressure regulator. I just guessed at a line pressure of 3 bar which I use to pre infuse until the first drops start to fall; (about 5 sec.) then full (8 bar) pump pressure. This has helped my consistency and I am getting great results. Is there any recommendations on pre infusion pressure or is it just trial and error?
Great point of view, thank you for your works. However, you could mislead viewers whether your thought or not. Please read comments by Clive coffee right under the movie clip for better and clear understanding. T.T Great work, thank you.
what are your thoughts on freezing beans? I order my coffee in bulk and freeze it immediately in air-tight containers. I thaw it as needed. Seems to work reasonably well but I'm also not taking every measure possible to ensure consistency of every pull.
My machine (BZ10) is not directly plumbed. However, I noticed that when I press the brew switch half-way, it opens the solenoid without engaging the pump. Some water does flow out of the head due to a bit of residual pressure. Do you think that would be adequate for a good pre-infusion? Or put another way, how many grams of water does a puck need to absorb in order to be saturated enough?
Could you help me select high-end espresso machine for home + small party? Budget can go as high as Linea Mini, which I am considering, as well as Elektra Microcasa Semiautomatica. Pre-infusion seems quite important but not sure mentioned machines have the feature.
The Linea Mini does have a short 2-second automatic pre-infusion, whether it's used with the internal reservoir or on a water line. While you can't really go wrong with the Linea Mini, I highly recommend getting in touch with our team of coffee experts either by phone, email, or chat. They'll gladly help you find the machine that best fits your needs. clivecoffee.com/pages/contact - Charles
Love these videos! Quality and great explanations! Thank you! I got a question, that has me very confused, when I pull out my shots I start counting the seconds including pre-infusion... I have a Profitec 300 and as soon as I start the shot the PID starts counting the time, when I’m at around 25-27 seconds it gives me 38 grams of coffee (18 grams of coffee in the ports filter).... am I doing correct? Or should I start counting the shot time as soon as the first drop is out and I ignore pre-infusion? Thank you very much!
It's always best to start your timer the moment water comes into contact with coffee because that's when extraction truly begins, so you're doing everything right. Further, your recipe sounds solid! That's approximately a 1:2 ratio of coffee to water which is the ratio of choice for about half of us here. The rest prefer a more concentrated ratio of 1:1.5 or less. If you're happy with the flavors you're getting, stick to it! If you want to experiment with your coffee I'd try fining up your grind so that you get a little less espresso (say 30 grams) in that same 26 seconds. You might find entirely new flavors hidden inside. Glad to hear you're enjoying the videos! - Charles
Oh woow Charles! A million thanks for your super prompt reply! I appreciate it, cheers :) ok, so looks like I’m in the right path and I will keep counting those 26 seconds including pre-infusion time.... now, I am using a coffee that’s around 75% Arabica & 25% Robusta! As mentioned, on those 26 seconds I get around 38 grams out (18 grams In portafilter) but I find the espresso quite strong and intense flavor! What should I do to make it less “intense/strong” in flavor? Longer shots? Less grams as you suggested? Any advice on this! Thank you again, very kind!
@@leonelsarmiento7 The key is to first determine whether the coffee is too strong or if it is over-extracted. You can test this by pulling a shot with the same 18 gram dose and 38 gram output, but pulling it in a shorter timeframe. I would try pulling a shot in 23 seconds and comparing that to a shot with the same parameters but pulled for 26 seconds. You may find that the flavors are more balanced with the quicker, less extracted shot. This would indicate that your original recipe was over-extracting and pulling negative flavors from the coffee. To do this you'll need to do a bit of dialing in with your grinder, adjusting a bit coarser to increase the flow rate. If this doesn't help, I would simply try diluting the shot. While I like espresso I prefer an "Italiano" or an espresso with a few ounces of hot water. I feel that sometimes the sheer strength of espresso can get in the way of being able to fully experience the flavors of the coffee. You've given me an idea for a future video so thank you and good luck! - Charles
Thank you very much! I will experiment a bit with the advice you have giving me :) and making a video for this issue could be amazing because there is none out there that explain it plain simple and you are good with that :) cheers
Hey there! That's not a machine we carry, so we can't speak to it's specs and features. I would reach out to your original vendor for detailed information about your machine.
Some E61 machines with a brew lever will be able to release a little water without pressure when you lift the lever a little more than half way up but it's inconsistent and unpredictable. For pre-infusion time, we recommend experimenting but a good place to start it pre-infuse until first drop.
I have a profitec 600 which has a water reservoir. I THOUGHT I saw saw a video that used the pre-infusion technique you first outlined, so I have been doing it at home. I tried to find the video again, but I could not...now that I have watched yours, I bet it was for a Profitec 700 that was plumbed in. 🙁 sad that I can't preinfuse. Just to be sure...what I have been doing with the 600 does not pre-infuse the puck at all?
Unfortunately, you're correct. Since the 600 uses an E61 group head and can't be plumbed in it is incapable of pre-infusion. If you'd still like to find ways to improve the consistency of your extractions I'd recommend focusing on distribution and tamping technique. The Saint Anthony distributor tool I mention in the video is a great tool for just that! - Charles
Don't know if you'll see this comment, so long after video. I have a Bezzera BZ13 machine, which has a reservoir. Do you know if this machine is capable of preinfusion?
Try it without a portafilter on and find out... if it's an E61 machine it probably will work, but you basically need to find the point just before the pump turns on, it should drip slowly out due to slight pressure from the boiler.
I just purchased a Lucca 53 mini from clive coffee. Everything is fine except it makes soupy pucks. Is this normal for a 53mm portafilter? The whole world uses 58mm portafilters - there must be a reason. Am I stuck with a soupy puck forever?
Hey Mike, we haven't noticed that the A53 Mini is any more prone to this than 58mm machines. That aside, it's best not to worry about soupy pucks. We get them too from time to time, but they have almost no bearing on whether a shot will be good or bad. If you hit your target recipe, avoid channeling, and the shot tastes good what the puck looks like doesn't matter a bit. - Charles
I had the Mini Vivaldi which is very similar to yours and let me make a suggestion, try to dose more coffee on the portafilter and see if that helps giving the puck more density and dryness at the end.
Hi there! With any E61, the machine does have a built-in passive pre-infusion. When the machine is not plumbed in you are still able to gently wet the grounds to help with an even extraction. With the brew lever halfway up that line pressure between the boiler and group head will taper, so the pre-infusion length is only about 3-4 seconds. When plumbed in directly the pre-infusion is generally more consistent and continuous. Hope this helps! -Amanda
Your first explanation about pre-infusion is not correct. It is not "...before applying full desired brewing temperature...", it is before applying the full brewing PRESSURE! Very, very different things. The wedge is another tool that is wrongly explained or better said the application of a wedge is not as one really thinks. Distribution of the grounds, evenly? Not, may not happen if you use the wedge on very uneven distributed ground bed in first place and do not even the grounds before using the wedge. Just think about for a minute: The weight of the wedge (usually quite heavy) firstly pushes down the grounds as they appear in the portafilter (the same what the tamper does) and then flattens the surface only. It looks like the wedge did a great job but In fact damage done already when applied the wedge on uneven grounds, hence no difference as if one uses a normal tamper. The key is to distribute the grounds as even as possible before using any tool. And if one has done this properly a wedge becomes obsolete (can save quite some money plus get rid of one more work flow). Unfortunately you have not mentioned the real reason of using pre-infusion or not. Lets make it a given that we distribute properly and no channeling happens (it is right that pre-infusion diminishes - but not to zer - channeling). Why pre-infusion has been implemented has to do with flavor profile/taste. E.g. take a light roast and use no pre-infusion. The espresso will be likely quite high in acidity. But, pre-infuse same coffee for a certain amount of time and you will have a likely much less acidic espresso now given that all else is equal to the first espresso. The reason that flavor changes is that 9 bar pressure on a dry bed immediately squeezes out more acidity as if the bed is softened and the 9 bar pressure is applied on a wet ground, hence less acidity will be extracted. This is the basic principle of pressure profiling of the new machines. With pressure profiling it goes much further since one can influence the whole brewing time with different pressure. E.g. use a dark roast and reduce pressure at the end of brewing time. Very different outcome in taste of the espresso as if not applied (it will be less astringent, bitter). And so on. The Sanremo You is a fantastic machine to test this all. Sorry for this long explanation and outline. Just wanted to give more light into this all.
Great video! With pre-infusion, does the magic 20-30 sec extraction time start when the first drop hits the bottom of the glass, or, when you press the shot button. (referencing the Breville dual boiler here, as the timer starts on the machine when you hit start) :) thank you
Your explanation is not correct. The E61 has a built in preinfusion system which works by lifting the lever up all the way. There is a third valve that reduces the pressure on the coffee puck until it’s fully closed. Using the half way position of the lever is not a design feature as far as I know.
Hey Majos, I've pinned your comment so that this discussion is more visible.
First, to clarify: The manual pre-infusion step is an intentionally designed function of the E61 group head. The cam is made to have a resting point that allows the brew valve to be open without the lever activating the pump switch. This is a big part of what makes E61 groups so wonderful, as you get to manually control pre-infusion if you wish by using line pressure.
The crux of the issue here is defining what pre-infusion truly is. Something as simple as a flow restrictor (like the gicleur in an E61 group head) could be considered a form of pre-infusion since there will always be an air gap above the puck that takes time to fill with water. Most wouldn't consider a flow restrictor a form of pre-infusion since its effects are rather minor and every machine has some form of flow restriction. We could consider the other end of the spectrum to be fully manual flow control like on a La Marzocco GS3 MP.
The pre-infusion chamber on an E61 group certainly falls somewhere between those two and can certainly be referred to as a form of pre-infusion. Considering how mild its effect is we don't think it matches up with what baristas popularly define as pre-infusion today.
Hope that clears up our intention with this video, glad to chat more.
- Charles
@@clivecoffeeYou are right, that water is incompressible. Thats why there is a chamber to which the water can go first. There is a schematic representation of the E61 group head on this site: www.coffeeitalia.de/blog/E61Gruppe. It shows the preinfusion valve and the preinfusion chamber. When the lever is pulled all the way up the preinfusion chamber is filled with water, reducing the pressure on the coffee until it is fully filled. Only then the full pressure is reached. This is the preinfusion mechanism I was referring to.
You can also see this by monitoring the brew pressure, in case the machine has an indicator for this. The pressure will remain at about 4 bar for a while and then go up to 10 bar.
It is described in the original patent by Ernesto Valente patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/d1/85/b9/89f160b54199f9/US3230974.pdf
"When the pres
sure in the chamber 14 reaches (in the case in question) 1.5 atms. this pressure overcomes the power of the spring 8 and the sealing device 7 becomes detached from the Seat. But in the supposition in question, the sealing device 10 remains in off position. As the hot water still arrives in 14, this water, little by little, fills the cavity 9. After this filling, the pressure in 14 and above the coffee powder contained in the filter, rapidly increases under the action of the pressure in 3, and then the infusion is distributed"
@@majos I'm 99% sure you're wrong. The manual for both the profitec 700 and synchronika which uses E61 says preinfusion is done by partially elevating the brew lever.
@@tommos1
But the fact is, that the original patent by the inventor of the E61 does not mention this at all but only describes the pre-infusion chamber as mentioned above. patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/d1/85/b9/89f160b54199f9/US3230974.pdf
My Quickmill machine with E61 has a half-way resting position which does not do anything. When I lift it a little bit further, water comes out of the group head, while the pump button is not pressed yet. But it is not in the resting position and does not feel like a design feature.
There is a lot of discussion around on the internet whether this position has a designed purpose or not and many argue that flowing water in the resting position is due to a misalignment of the cam. I am sure that some manufacturers (profitec and ecm are the same german manufacturer) see this as a feature but I stick with my point: it is not mentioned in the technical design by the inventor Ernesto Valente.
I use a variable fan switch with my machine to achieve this and it works great (it also gives me the ability to pressure profile my shots). I'm not an espresso expert but in my experience it brews a shot that isn't harsh or sour. It's very balanced and it helped me learn to taste for sweetness in espresso. I'm trying to keep my coffee setup cheap so I'm thinking of getting a Flair next.
I highly recommend the flair. It brews awesome espresso and the pro model comes with a pressure guage that can be used for pressure profiling!
@@pete9894 thanks for the tip. I'm debating between the Flair and a LaPavoni Europiccola. The difference being that the LaPavoni had a boiler. It'll cost at least $600 but I won't have to worry about heating up all the parts of the Flair each. Still weighing my options.
Pretty sure those distributors don't really do anything besides smooth out the top of the coffee, it's not evenly compacted or distributed all the way through, the best way to do that is either by poking / stirring up the coffee especially if you got a clumpy grinder or distributed all the coffee to one side, but I find what works for me if I do it carefully, is with my tamper, I do a nutation motion circling around the edges in the basket like using a joystick, then I make sure the tamper is level and do the tamp. The most important part is just tamping the coffee straight and not at an angle.
My ecm synchronika is a E61 machine. I was told that when I use reservoir, there's no in-fusion fuction as I lift the handle half way up.
Only I use in-line water. The pressure of in-line water will kick in the infusion. As I only use reservoir, it is true that I cannot implement in-fusion technique in my shot. Because when I lift the handle halfway, there's no water coming out from the group head.
So is it possible to preinfuse manually if one owns a machine without this function? Nice explanation!
Wether or not it is good or bad (I love it), my Rocket R58 does not release water at the 45 degree point. You have to go higher, maybe 60 degrees up. I had to back the switch up into the machine so that the pump doesn’t turn on too early. It took me some time, but now it preinfuses perfectly. Just FYI about the 45 degrees - I guess not all machines release house pressure water at that angle.
Wow great vid guys really helpful I have a German machine that is lacking English instructions lol
So trying to work out what best setting for pre infusion would be it’s sitting around 6 seconds currently. My friends slayer machine is 30sec that’s too long but may increase mine to see if I get a better shot
Well explained thank you
I got PL82T from Lelit, aka Kate, and pre-infusion is working magnificent.
Hej Magnus
Är du fortfarande nöjd med maskinen ?
I thought E61 brewheads did preinfusion automatically?
They do, but this is more like a slower pre- pre infusion lol :D
Also I found it doesn't automatically start dripping when half way, you need to carefully go a bit further just before the pump engages it will start dripping just from brew boiler pressure, it works on a non plumbed machine and I believe most plumbed ones work similarly, maybe some work the way they demonstrated here where half-way starts the flow, but I've seen other videos (and my own E61 machine) does not work that way.
Amazing presentation, well done!
Thank you so much
Nice one, when you said temperature you mean pressure yes.
How do you pre-infuse if you have a flow control? Do u leave it totally open? Totally closed? I have the puristika
Hey! Start with the FC paddle fully closed, lift the brew lever up all the way to start your shot, and then move the FC paddle slightly to the right. You will get the hang of this the more you use it.
If a shot recipe is for a 30second shot time, assuming you start the timer when you hit the button/pull the leaver (not when you see the first drips of espresso). Would you include the pre-infusion time in the 30s or not?
Not included
I have a direct plumbed E61 machine fed thru a filter and pressure regulator. I just guessed at a line pressure of 3 bar which I use to pre infuse until the first drops start to fall; (about 5 sec.) then full (8 bar) pump pressure. This has helped my consistency and I am getting great results. Is there any recommendations on pre infusion pressure or is it just trial and error?
Is lamaazacco classic Pd also has automatic pre infusion
May I know how come I am having coffee dripping to my cup during pre infusion
baby james hoffmann in the making.
my machine has a res. Can't i just pre-infuse by dripping some water to wet/saturate the espresso?
how do you preinfuse a home machine like la scala butterfly
hello.. i would like to know, is quickmill rubino a good machine with pre- infusion?
Is pre infusion works only on lever? How about lamazoco
Great point of view, thank you for your works. However, you could mislead viewers whether your thought or not. Please read comments by Clive coffee right under the movie clip for better and clear understanding. T.T Great work, thank you.
what are your thoughts on freezing beans? I order my coffee in bulk and freeze it immediately in air-tight containers. I thaw it as needed. Seems to work reasonably well but I'm also not taking every measure possible to ensure consistency of every pull.
Thank you Brewseph Gordon-Levitt #brewception #DarkRoastKnightRises #3rdBeanFromTheSun
0:22 pressure* ?
Spot on, good catch.
- Charles
My machine (BZ10) is not directly plumbed. However, I noticed that when I press the brew switch half-way, it opens the solenoid without engaging the pump. Some water does flow out of the head due to a bit of residual pressure. Do you think that would be adequate for a good pre-infusion? Or put another way, how many grams of water does a puck need to absorb in order to be saturated enough?
Did you experiment with it? What did you find works best?
Could you help me select high-end espresso machine for home + small party? Budget can go as high as Linea Mini, which I am considering, as well as Elektra Microcasa Semiautomatica. Pre-infusion seems quite important but not sure mentioned machines have the feature.
The Linea Mini does have a short 2-second automatic pre-infusion, whether it's used with the internal reservoir or on a water line. While you can't really go wrong with the Linea Mini, I highly recommend getting in touch with our team of coffee experts either by phone, email, or chat. They'll gladly help you find the machine that best fits your needs.
clivecoffee.com/pages/contact
- Charles
Love these videos! Quality and great explanations! Thank you! I got a question, that has me very confused, when I pull out my shots I start counting the seconds including pre-infusion... I have a Profitec 300 and as soon as I start the shot the PID starts counting the time, when I’m at around 25-27 seconds it gives me 38 grams of coffee (18 grams of coffee in the ports filter).... am I doing correct? Or should I start counting the shot time as soon as the first drop is out and I ignore pre-infusion? Thank you very much!
It's always best to start your timer the moment water comes into contact with coffee because that's when extraction truly begins, so you're doing everything right. Further, your recipe sounds solid! That's approximately a 1:2 ratio of coffee to water which is the ratio of choice for about half of us here. The rest prefer a more concentrated ratio of 1:1.5 or less.
If you're happy with the flavors you're getting, stick to it! If you want to experiment with your coffee I'd try fining up your grind so that you get a little less espresso (say 30 grams) in that same 26 seconds. You might find entirely new flavors hidden inside.
Glad to hear you're enjoying the videos!
- Charles
Oh woow Charles! A million thanks for your super prompt reply! I appreciate it, cheers :) ok, so looks like I’m in the right path and I will keep counting those 26 seconds including pre-infusion time.... now, I am using a coffee that’s around 75% Arabica & 25% Robusta! As mentioned, on those 26 seconds I get around 38 grams out (18 grams In portafilter) but I find the espresso quite strong and intense flavor! What should I do to make it less “intense/strong” in flavor? Longer shots? Less grams as you suggested? Any advice on this! Thank you again, very kind!
@@leonelsarmiento7 The key is to first determine whether the coffee is too strong or if it is over-extracted. You can test this by pulling a shot with the same 18 gram dose and 38 gram output, but pulling it in a shorter timeframe. I would try pulling a shot in 23 seconds and comparing that to a shot with the same parameters but pulled for 26 seconds. You may find that the flavors are more balanced with the quicker, less extracted shot. This would indicate that your original recipe was over-extracting and pulling negative flavors from the coffee. To do this you'll need to do a bit of dialing in with your grinder, adjusting a bit coarser to increase the flow rate.
If this doesn't help, I would simply try diluting the shot. While I like espresso I prefer an "Italiano" or an espresso with a few ounces of hot water. I feel that sometimes the sheer strength of espresso can get in the way of being able to fully experience the flavors of the coffee.
You've given me an idea for a future video so thank you and good luck!
- Charles
Thank you very much! I will experiment a bit with the advice you have giving me :) and making a video for this issue could be amazing because there is none out there that explain it plain simple and you are good with that :) cheers
I have Oscar II, everyone say it comes pre-infusion but I really can't see the pre-infusion...
Hey there!
That's not a machine we carry, so we can't speak to it's specs and features. I would reach out to your original vendor for detailed information about your machine.
@@clivecoffee Thanks for your help!
So if you have a e61 with a tank you are wetting the puck? So how long does this wetting take to guarantee a fully saturated puck?
Some E61 machines with a brew lever will be able to release a little water without pressure when you lift the lever a little more than half way up but it's inconsistent and unpredictable.
For pre-infusion time, we recommend experimenting but a good place to start it pre-infuse until first drop.
I have a profitec 600 which has a water reservoir. I THOUGHT I saw saw a video that used the pre-infusion technique you first outlined, so I have been doing it at home. I tried to find the video again, but I could not...now that I have watched yours, I bet it was for a Profitec 700 that was plumbed in. 🙁 sad that I can't preinfuse. Just to be sure...what I have been doing with the 600 does not pre-infuse the puck at all?
Are you in southern California?
SuperOCHomes no
Unfortunately, you're correct. Since the 600 uses an E61 group head and can't be plumbed in it is incapable of pre-infusion. If you'd still like to find ways to improve the consistency of your extractions I'd recommend focusing on distribution and tamping technique. The Saint Anthony distributor tool I mention in the video is a great tool for just that!
- Charles
Do you have a link for your cups?
Don't know if you'll see this comment, so long after video. I have a Bezzera BZ13 machine, which has a reservoir. Do you know if this machine is capable of preinfusion?
Try it without a portafilter on and find out... if it's an E61 machine it probably will work, but you basically need to find the point just before the pump turns on, it should drip slowly out due to slight pressure from the boiler.
I just purchased a Lucca 53 mini from clive coffee. Everything is fine except it makes soupy pucks. Is this normal for a 53mm portafilter? The whole world uses 58mm portafilters - there must be a reason. Am I stuck with a soupy puck forever?
Hey Mike, we haven't noticed that the A53 Mini is any more prone to this than 58mm machines. That aside, it's best not to worry about soupy pucks. We get them too from time to time, but they have almost no bearing on whether a shot will be good or bad. If you hit your target recipe, avoid channeling, and the shot tastes good what the puck looks like doesn't matter a bit.
- Charles
I had the Mini Vivaldi which is very similar to yours and let me make a suggestion, try to dose more coffee on the portafilter and see if that helps giving the puck more density and dryness at the end.
So does pre-infusion works on ECM Synchronika using reservoir? (Can’t plumb)
Hi there! With any E61, the machine does have a built-in passive pre-infusion. When the machine is not plumbed in you are still able to gently wet the grounds to help with an even extraction. With the brew lever halfway up that line pressure between the boiler and group head will taper, so the pre-infusion length is only about 3-4 seconds. When plumbed in directly the pre-infusion is generally more consistent and continuous. Hope this helps!
-Amanda
"For more coffee knowledge, tamp subscribe." 😂
Your first explanation about pre-infusion is not correct. It is not "...before applying full desired brewing temperature...", it is before applying the full brewing PRESSURE! Very, very different things. The wedge is another tool that is wrongly explained or better said the application of a wedge is not as one really thinks. Distribution of the grounds, evenly? Not, may not happen if you use the wedge on very uneven distributed ground bed in first place and do not even the grounds before using the wedge. Just think about for a minute: The weight of the wedge (usually quite heavy) firstly pushes down the grounds as they appear in the portafilter (the same what the tamper does) and then flattens the surface only. It looks like the wedge did a great job but In fact damage done already when applied the wedge on uneven grounds, hence no difference as if one uses a normal tamper. The key is to distribute the grounds as even as possible before using any tool. And if one has done this properly a wedge becomes obsolete (can save quite some money plus get rid of one more work flow). Unfortunately you have not mentioned the real reason of using pre-infusion or not. Lets make it a given that we distribute properly and no channeling happens (it is right that pre-infusion diminishes - but not to zer - channeling). Why pre-infusion has been implemented has to do with flavor profile/taste. E.g. take a light roast and use no pre-infusion. The espresso will be likely quite high in acidity. But, pre-infuse same coffee for a certain amount of time and you will have a likely much less acidic espresso now given that all else is equal to the first espresso. The reason that flavor changes is that 9 bar pressure on a dry bed immediately squeezes out more acidity as if the bed is softened and the 9 bar pressure is applied on a wet ground, hence less acidity will be extracted. This is the basic principle of pressure profiling of the new machines. With pressure profiling it goes much further since one can influence the whole brewing time with different pressure. E.g. use a dark roast and reduce pressure at the end of brewing time. Very different outcome in taste of the espresso as if not applied (it will be less astringent, bitter). And so on. The Sanremo You is a fantastic machine to test this all. Sorry for this long explanation and outline. Just wanted to give more light into this all.
Maybe iron that shirt. Or at least steam it with one of those steam wands. =Þ
Great video!
With pre-infusion, does the magic 20-30 sec extraction time start when the first drop hits the bottom of the glass, or, when you press the shot button. (referencing the Breville dual boiler here, as the timer starts on the machine when you hit start) :)
thank you
Hi! Your shot time starts once pre-infusion ends and the pump fully engages. Hope this helps clarify things for you!