Hi Matt, veteran Lutron shade installer here. The best option I have seen for terminating Sheetrock to shade pocket is manufactured by a Canadian company called Millson. They have many other products to ease the installation of Lutron shades. Well worth the time to check them out.
Perfect timing, Matt. We were just talking about how best to solve the "where do the shades go" on our west facing water view windows on our upcoming Orcas Island build. We don't want it to be left as an afterthought, and instead want to solve for integrating the shades into the timber-framing design or the window design before the plans are finalized and the windows are ordered. Still need to work out the specifics due to the complexity of our project, but glad to see we are on the right path of building this into the framing plan. We may need to create a fake hollow beam next to or below the structural curved glulam beam where we can house the shades, or build a bigger mull or box over the mull so the transition from timberframe to window looks seamless while also giving us the privacy and sun protection of shades, which is no easy feat when you have 40 feet of 12' tall custom windows & sliding doors with a double curved roofline! We will check out Lutron.
Great instruction! In a future video, could you also discuss this same concept (shade pocket) on the outside of the house? When I was in Italy, many of the homes had these cool roller shades that you could operate with a roller cord from the inside. The outside shades were more meant to shield the window from direct sunlight, but have so many uses for areas plagued by hail. Thoughts?
I'd like to see this too! If you block the sun light AFTER it gets through the window, then much of the heat also gets into the house. Where if you block the light before it gets in the house, you avoid a lot of the heat gain. Plus the exterior window protection is a nice benefit.
Don't think I can post a picture, but I have been planning that on my reno as I love the roll shutter idea, but hate the big ass bulky boxes. My local roll shutter supplier sent me one solution, which is to put the box for the roll in the eaves, and have the soffit die into the edge/bottom of the box. Looks real slick as all you see is a small slot that the roller comes out of. Like this, takes pre-planning though
@@alanjackson1015 Any chance you can provide a link in a reply that would give us an idea of what your shutter supplier suggests? I was in Italy back in the mid-1980s, and not really interested in building my own home. So, I never looked at how they mounted the outside shutters. But I live in tornado territory and wanted a way to (1) protect expensive windows against hail and/or (2) close up the home when gone. (My property is rural).
@@mountainhome5546 Unfortunately, UA-cam doesn't allow external links. Imagine the box is placed further up the wall under the eaves, and then your j-channel for your soffit butts up right against the bottom of the shutter box, and is filled just like normal. The eaves die into the box all on the same level.
That would be interesting, and it seems feasible on a 2x8 stud exterior wall. - Frame the window as normal, but add 4" to the height. - Frame a 2x4 section at the top 4" of the window, and set that out to the exterior edge of the stud wall. - Place the window in that exterior 3.5" section of the window. The section of wall interior to the 2x4 section is where the blinds live. This could probably also work with a 2x6 wall with 2" of exterior insulation where the window can sit largely in the window buck. Maybe could even work with a 2x4 wall that has 4" of exterior insulation where the window sits entirely in the window buck. The tricky part might be securing the top of the window buck to the point that it passes code.
@@dosadoodle Now we're talkin! This would be ideal as the extra 2' of shade above the window will look less than desirable. I also wonder if/how this could ever truly be a blackout shade due to the 2' above the window and it being outside the window opening.
@@TNFTAW There's a video from a few years ago on doing a super good job blocking out light with shades that may offer some ideas: search for "get hands dirty windows".
Just completed a very similar detail using MDF plywood for recessed horizontal and vertical light coves. These came out flawless but used the Lutron shade boxes for roller shades… never again. Please do a follow up on your drywall to plywood transition detail. I used elongated“L” metal to cover the plywood edge.
To doubters, Lutron has been doing shades for quite a while now. Their training in Richmond, VA used to be known as top-notch. Additionally, if they go out of business, there are more lighting projects (order of magnitude) that could have future issues, once attic stock is expired. Motorized window shades are customized (1/16”) for each window in a project. Their width can also be cut-down if a spare shade (attic stock again) down the road is too wide. Some architects require more shades to be ordered than is needed for a project.
Only done low voltage window coverings? Not easy to move a large curtain with 150+ pounds of fabric or a large vertical blinds with low voltage. I have a 12ft window and a dual function patio door (tilt & retract) that both needed 120 volts.
All of the challenge in this video is that the design calls for the shades to actually be in pockets in the ceiling. If the clearance above the window and below the ceiling isn't too tight, you could just mount the shades on the ceiling or on the wall above the window, and be done with it. Apparently here, the architect / client wanted a better aesthetic. The same goes for an exterior shade: You can just mount it on the exterior wall, above the window. If that aesthetic works for you, that's what you can do. I will point out a very important point: Make sure that there is enough clearance when the shade is retracted, for any window operation. We have an exterior share which when closed, hangs down just a bit and interferes with the window opening - to open that window we would have to push it past the resistance of the dangling end of the shade.
Does the control signaling for the shades also go over the Ethernet? Using Single Pair Ethernet (SPE) with Power over Data Line (PoDL) would allow using a single low voltage pair for both the signaling and power. You tend to see it more in industrial applications but it seems like it would be a good fit for the smart home market.
Matt, I’d really like to see more detail. I’ve never seen these before so not familiar with final look/operation. Do the boxes have a cover that opens! Seems similar to an in-ceiling home theater screen. Give the client what they want, but Pella between-the-glass shades much cleaner and likely more reliable. Tradeoffs tradeoffs.
When thinking about the level of planning and details required, are these captured in a BIM? Another thought is with a thicker wall section could a non-traditional header be used on the window openings, say inside and outside LVL, to allow for the shade pocket to be in frame?
With all due respect, that installation looks great w/windows that finish at ceiling height. We use these on our houses all the time, same Lutron Sivoia system. When we have windows finish flush to ceiling we do similar. All door installs, both lift & slide and french, as well as windows finishing below ceiling we ALWAYS use jamb fitted shade pockets. Of course it’s easier for us since our homes have 12” thick walls. Would be impossible to do with 2x4 framing, 2x6 would be difficult for doors and tall windows.
pockets look about 4" deep, why not plan to drop the ceiling 4 inches everywhere. No issues with special trusses, easier changes/repair later. Room for running other services pretty much anywhere you want. You lose those few inches of ceiling height, or pay for for taller wall all around, but the consistency in structural design seems like it would be worth it for cost, simpler construction methods/fewer mistakes. Cost may not factor in so much for a person specing lutron shades, but time always matters.
Exactly. Just drop the ceiling for so many reasons. The lighting will be easier to locate as well. If you’re doing shade boxes you have the budget to drop the ceiling.
That's what we typically do. Trusses aren't common here for fire reasons. Our Architects spec to drop the ceilings anywhere to accommodate shade pockets. Motorized shades are very expensive anyways so the only places with budgets for them are high end homes that need them and usually those homes have high enough ceilings to accommodate. Also drop ceilings are reversible as all the comment says. Any other method seems like it introduces too many possibility for error.
I’m adding blind pockets using my 2x4 service cavity inside my double stud wall. I’m building with 9’ ceilings and using 60” tall windows (like regular people, lol) so I don’t have to worry about hiding a thick material that’s 12’ long.
You can also use pockets with vents which allow the heated air between the fabric and glass to vent above the ceiling. On commercial work you’d want to ensure it is okay with code. re: plenums
Not sure if it applies to the area but typically a 30min fire rating is for ceilings and a doubt a plywood box meets that unless it is made of special plywood or coated with an incumscent paint. Drywall is cheap and provides the 30min rating with a standard thickness sheet. If a fire penetrated into the attic space it would be very bad. Any fires in a low voltage powered blinds box would also delay smoke detection. It also looks kinda odd to have blinds come all the wall down from the ceiling when the windows are not going to the ceiling. Hiding the blinds directly over the opening would look a lot cleaner and would not compromise the structure or fire rating.
Former Crestron shade dealer here, the brackets that hold the shades in the housing are made so that you can change out the shades if you want to, all you have to do is order a new shade. Typically your dealer will have the measurements on hand so it’s as easy as picking a new fabric, paying for it, and scheduling the install.
It is really nice and I’m sure this would look amazing, but what if one breaks and you can’t get the exact same model… Do you have to tear up your entire ceiling? Again I’m sure it looks amazing but this seems more headaches than it’s worth?
I noticed the roofline was already foamed? Was that a “Pre-Foam” to allow insulation behind the shade boxes? Is there an added cost for the two mobilizations for insulation?
In Spain almost every apartment has hidden interior rolling shutters. Look at a picture of a Spanish city and look at the windows of the residential buildings.
I think structurally I'd prefer the lintel be raised slightly and the shade project from above the widow frame. Ok, not the same but altering trusses is a bit too invasive for my liking.
Funny how we are going back to curtain pelmets and indirect lighting again like the 1970’s, personally i’m glad its getting away from the glaring lights and minimalist architecture
@@ecospider5 It will certainly be a nightmare if you can't buy replacement shades in the same size. Making the boxes oversized and have a cover that can be trimmed to size and even remade might be a better option.
3D printing was supposed to fix the problem of spare parts. But I have not seen that happen in the real world. So yes finding parts in a decade would probably not be possible.
@@ecospider5 3D printed parts are never going to be stronger than parts from industrial machines. They use fiber reinforced plastics, over-molds with a metal reinforcement inside, special plastic blends, higher temperatures, and higher pressures that are better than any single filament printer could never achieve with power from a basic residential outlet.
That shade hanging in front of the door is a epic fail! It will always be in the way when down. They should have sprung for the blinds inside the glass. It would have turned out much better.
Building the structure around a specific product makes no sense. That mfr may be out of business 10 yrs from now or at least not make the same sizes, so you are just creating a future problem when the initial mechanism or material fails. You should be creating recessed boxes much larger than initial product needs with just custom covers for the particular mfr and conduit for control wiring to be re-pulled later. Always try to future-proof. Besides that, if the purpose of shades is to block sun and heat, they should go into the soffits outside, blocking the sun before it hits the window, not on the inside after the heat has entered. Even just privacy shades are better outside. Ordering custom trusses just so you can put something in the wrong place is moronic.
Hey Matt I am sick and tired of shitty Texas foam builders (custom and production) having their insulator staple BIB Mesh at patio, porch & garage demising walls and spray Open Cell to it. I see hundreds of houses a year that have moisture and vapor permeable envelope holes, some in excess of 400sqft. You should do an entire show on that. How to frame for foam correctly. I’ve worked for Cool, Garland, TruTeam Williams and I’m sick of the “Best Insulations of the world doing half ass work and everyone buys it because it cheap. Is “cheap” the standard now for a builders Thermal Envelope Professional?
I am very thankful for the ua-cam.com/users/postUgkxbnOKZBE4evMO5V2vroHeCjq6d_MV6wJO that has been a tremendous help to me in building a perfect outdoor shed. I have been facing many challenges and difficulties for a long time, but this plan has guided me to correct the mistakes during the process. I am impressed by the projects and I express my gratitude to the creator of this collection of plans.
Hi Matt, veteran Lutron shade installer here. The best option I have seen for terminating Sheetrock to shade pocket is manufactured by a Canadian company called Millson. They have many other products to ease the installation of Lutron shades. Well worth the time to check them out.
I would love to see the finished product when it's done!
Disappointed not seeing some finished products, really good way to show off your vuests work!!!
Perfect timing, Matt. We were just talking about how best to solve the "where do the shades go" on our west facing water view windows on our upcoming Orcas Island build. We don't want it to be left as an afterthought, and instead want to solve for integrating the shades into the timber-framing design or the window design before the plans are finalized and the windows are ordered. Still need to work out the specifics due to the complexity of our project, but glad to see we are on the right path of building this into the framing plan. We may need to create a fake hollow beam next to or below the structural curved glulam beam where we can house the shades, or build a bigger mull or box over the mull so the transition from timberframe to window looks seamless while also giving us the privacy and sun protection of shades, which is no easy feat when you have 40 feet of 12' tall custom windows & sliding doors with a double curved roofline! We will check out Lutron.
Great instruction! In a future video, could you also discuss this same concept (shade pocket) on the outside of the house? When I was in Italy, many of the homes had these cool roller shades that you could operate with a roller cord from the inside. The outside shades were more meant to shield the window from direct sunlight, but have so many uses for areas plagued by hail. Thoughts?
They can also be useful for thermal insulation during the winter (in cold climates).
I'd like to see this too! If you block the sun light AFTER it gets through the window, then much of the heat also gets into the house. Where if you block the light before it gets in the house, you avoid a lot of the heat gain.
Plus the exterior window protection is a nice benefit.
Don't think I can post a picture, but I have been planning that on my reno as I love the roll shutter idea, but hate the big ass bulky boxes. My local roll shutter supplier sent me one solution, which is to put the box for the roll in the eaves, and have the soffit die into the edge/bottom of the box. Looks real slick as all you see is a small slot that the roller comes out of. Like this, takes pre-planning though
@@alanjackson1015 Any chance you can provide a link in a reply that would give us an idea of what your shutter supplier suggests? I was in Italy back in the mid-1980s, and not really interested in building my own home. So, I never looked at how they mounted the outside shutters. But I live in tornado territory and wanted a way to (1) protect expensive windows against hail and/or (2) close up the home when gone. (My property is rural).
@@mountainhome5546 Unfortunately, UA-cam doesn't allow external links.
Imagine the box is placed further up the wall under the eaves, and then your j-channel for your soffit butts up right against the bottom of the shutter box, and is filled just like normal. The eaves die into the box all on the same level.
Is it possible to do this in the top of the window opening rather than the ceiling so it's actually hidden?
That would be interesting, and it seems feasible on a 2x8 stud exterior wall.
- Frame the window as normal, but add 4" to the height.
- Frame a 2x4 section at the top 4" of the window, and set that out to the exterior edge of the stud wall.
- Place the window in that exterior 3.5" section of the window. The section of wall interior to the 2x4 section is where the blinds live.
This could probably also work with a 2x6 wall with 2" of exterior insulation where the window can sit largely in the window buck. Maybe could even work with a 2x4 wall that has 4" of exterior insulation where the window sits entirely in the window buck. The tricky part might be securing the top of the window buck to the point that it passes code.
@@dosadoodle Now we're talkin! This would be ideal as the extra 2' of shade above the window will look less than desirable. I also wonder if/how this could ever truly be a blackout shade due to the 2' above the window and it being outside the window opening.
@@TNFTAW There's a video from a few years ago on doing a super good job blocking out light with shades that may offer some ideas: search for "get hands dirty windows".
Wish a FINISHED and operational shade pocket was included.
Just completed a very similar detail using MDF plywood for recessed horizontal and vertical light coves. These came out flawless but used the Lutron shade boxes for roller shades… never again.
Please do a follow up on your drywall to plywood transition detail. I used elongated“L” metal to cover the plywood edge.
To doubters, Lutron has been doing shades for quite a while now. Their training in Richmond, VA used to be known as top-notch. Additionally, if they go out of business, there are more lighting projects (order of magnitude) that could have future issues, once attic stock is expired. Motorized window shades are customized (1/16”) for each window in a project. Their width can also be cut-down if a spare shade (attic stock again) down the road is too wide. Some architects require more shades to be ordered than is needed for a project.
Only done low voltage window coverings? Not easy to move a large curtain with 150+ pounds of fabric or a large vertical blinds with low voltage. I have a 12ft window and a dual function patio door (tilt & retract) that both needed 120 volts.
Are shades on the outside of the windows as big of a challenge? Budget and planning challenges?
All of the challenge in this video is that the design calls for the shades to actually be in pockets in the ceiling. If the clearance above the window and below the ceiling isn't too tight, you could just mount the shades on the ceiling or on the wall above the window, and be done with it. Apparently here, the architect / client wanted a better aesthetic.
The same goes for an exterior shade: You can just mount it on the exterior wall, above the window. If that aesthetic works for you, that's what you can do.
I will point out a very important point: Make sure that there is enough clearance when the shade is retracted, for any window operation. We have an exterior share which when closed, hangs down just a bit and interferes with the window opening - to open that window we would have to push it past the resistance of the dangling end of the shade.
Does the control signaling for the shades also go over the Ethernet? Using Single Pair Ethernet (SPE) with Power over Data Line (PoDL) would allow using a single low voltage pair for both the signaling and power. You tend to see it more in industrial applications but it seems like it would be a good fit for the smart home market.
Depends on manufacturer/model but probably PoE (power over ethernet) so the Cat6 carries both power and signal.
I've seen it done with 16/4 or 18/4
Matt, I’d really like to see more detail. I’ve never seen these before so not familiar with final look/operation. Do the boxes have a cover that opens! Seems similar to an in-ceiling home theater screen.
Give the client what they want, but Pella between-the-glass shades much cleaner and likely more reliable. Tradeoffs tradeoffs.
Is there a need to finish the pocket with drywall if you use a Lutron metal shade pocket?
When thinking about the level of planning and details required, are these captured in a BIM?
Another thought is with a thicker wall section could a non-traditional header be used on the window openings, say inside and outside LVL, to allow for the shade pocket to be in frame?
With all due respect, that installation looks great w/windows that finish at ceiling height. We use these on our houses all the time, same Lutron Sivoia system. When we have windows finish flush to ceiling we do similar. All door installs, both lift & slide and french, as well as windows finishing below ceiling we ALWAYS use jamb fitted shade pockets. Of course it’s easier for us since our homes have 12” thick walls. Would be impossible to do with 2x4 framing, 2x6 would be difficult for doors and tall windows.
pockets look about 4" deep, why not plan to drop the ceiling 4 inches everywhere. No issues with special trusses, easier changes/repair later. Room for running other services pretty much anywhere you want. You lose those few inches of ceiling height, or pay for for taller wall all around, but the consistency in structural design seems like it would be worth it for cost, simpler construction methods/fewer mistakes. Cost may not factor in so much for a person specing lutron shades, but time always matters.
I was thinking the same thing. Especially considering it looks like they have 10' high ceilings. 4" won't be missed.
Exactly. Just drop the ceiling for so many reasons. The lighting will be easier to locate as well. If you’re doing shade boxes you have the budget to drop the ceiling.
Would be my choice....
That's what we typically do. Trusses aren't common here for fire reasons. Our Architects spec to drop the ceilings anywhere to accommodate shade pockets. Motorized shades are very expensive anyways so the only places with budgets for them are high end homes that need them and usually those homes have high enough ceilings to accommodate. Also drop ceilings are reversible as all the comment says. Any other method seems like it introduces too many possibility for error.
I’m adding blind pockets using my 2x4 service cavity inside my double stud wall. I’m building with 9’ ceilings and using 60” tall windows (like regular people, lol) so I don’t have to worry about hiding a thick material that’s 12’ long.
You can also use pockets with vents which allow the heated air between the fabric and glass to vent above the ceiling. On commercial work you’d want to ensure it is okay with code. re: plenums
Not sure if it applies to the area but typically a 30min fire rating is for ceilings and a doubt a plywood box meets that unless it is made of special plywood or coated with an incumscent paint. Drywall is cheap and provides the 30min rating with a standard thickness sheet. If a fire penetrated into the attic space it would be very bad. Any fires in a low voltage powered blinds box would also delay smoke detection. It also looks kinda odd to have blinds come all the wall down from the ceiling when the windows are not going to the ceiling. Hiding the blinds directly over the opening would look a lot cleaner and would not compromise the structure or fire rating.
Great to be stuck with same blind and material forever
Former Crestron shade dealer here, the brackets that hold the shades in the housing are made so that you can change out the shades if you want to, all you have to do is order a new shade. Typically your dealer will have the measurements on hand so it’s as easy as picking a new fabric, paying for it, and scheduling the install.
Makes me wonder why you don’t put the shades outside if they are getting built in. Wouldn’t that keep more heat out?
Window manufacturers should include a shade pocket option in their designs.
It is really nice and I’m sure this would look amazing, but what if one breaks and you can’t get the exact same model…
Do you have to tear up your entire ceiling? Again I’m sure it looks amazing but this seems more headaches than it’s worth?
I noticed the roofline was already foamed? Was that a “Pre-Foam” to allow insulation behind the shade boxes? Is there an added cost for the two mobilizations for insulation?
In Spain almost every apartment has hidden interior rolling shutters. Look at a picture of a Spanish city and look at the windows of the residential buildings.
I think structurally I'd prefer the lintel be raised slightly and the shade project from above the widow frame. Ok, not the same but altering trusses is a bit too invasive for my liking.
There's a wocket in my pocket! -Dr. Seuss
About time someone cover this. I install shades for a living and I wish more people would do this!!!
It sounds to me you first want pocket shades and 2nd to build the house around them.
show us external shades/shutters too
Big fan of exterior shades. Generally common in thick walled European homes but not so much in America
@@buildshow Hey, Matt, you and Steve have been to Europe often. Did you get any footage of the exterior shades and how they are mounted?
Funny how we are going back to curtain pelmets and indirect lighting again like the 1970’s, personally i’m glad its getting away from the glaring lights and minimalist architecture
In 10 years when the mechanism breaks... Yikes.
That’s what I was thinking. A maintenance nightmare.
@@ecospider5 It will certainly be a nightmare if you can't buy replacement shades in the same size. Making the boxes oversized and have a cover that can be trimmed to size and even remade might be a better option.
Sorry, the new blinds don't fit in this old pocket, going to be $5,000 to adjust the woodwork and drywall.
3D printing was supposed to fix the problem of spare parts. But I have not seen that happen in the real world. So yes finding parts in a decade would probably not be possible.
@@ecospider5 3D printed parts are never going to be stronger than parts from industrial machines. They use fiber reinforced plastics, over-molds with a metal reinforcement inside, special plastic blends, higher temperatures, and higher pressures that are better than any single filament printer could never achieve with power from a basic residential outlet.
Jeez, nice door guys, 10'?
What's up with UA-cam lately showing tens of thousands of Likes on new videos with far fewer views? Seems mathematically impossible.
Eeew 1980s appartaments called and want there pockets back :)
Nice execution.
Whats with all the QR codes?
Travis got some calves on him!!!!
This looks like a detail for the 1%. Why build in complexity and more points of failure to a house?
That shade hanging in front of the door is a epic fail! It will always be in the way when down. They should have sprung for the blinds inside the glass. It would have turned out much better.
just a middle class asking wtf a shade pocket is.
Uh... why are they several feet above the window?!? Such bad design.
Because it hard to put them below the lintel/header.
So unnecessary. Nees a 12' shade to cover a 5' window. So stupid 😂😂
Building the structure around a specific product makes no sense. That mfr may be out of business 10 yrs from now or at least not make the same sizes, so you are just creating a future problem when the initial mechanism or material fails. You should be creating recessed boxes much larger than initial product needs with just custom covers for the particular mfr and conduit for control wiring to be re-pulled later. Always try to future-proof. Besides that, if the purpose of shades is to block sun and heat, they should go into the soffits outside, blocking the sun before it hits the window, not on the inside after the heat has entered. Even just privacy shades are better outside. Ordering custom trusses just so you can put something in the wrong place is moronic.
Did he say run a CAT wire to a Lutron shade ??? I cannot disagree more. Run a Lutron 4 conductor wire to a Lutron Shade always always always.
Most builders would've just closed up the wall without fixing that truss mistake.
Lutron shades are hilariously overpriced
Come on guys, half the video talking before starting
These seem totally unnecessary and rife for problems. KISS
First world building problems...
First :)
cringe, lol
Hey Matt
I am sick and tired of shitty Texas foam builders (custom and production) having their insulator staple BIB Mesh at patio, porch & garage demising walls and spray Open Cell to it. I see hundreds of houses a year that have moisture and vapor permeable envelope holes, some in excess of 400sqft.
You should do an entire show on that. How to frame for foam correctly. I’ve worked for Cool, Garland, TruTeam Williams and I’m sick of the “Best Insulations of the world doing half ass work and everyone buys it because it cheap. Is “cheap” the standard now for a builders Thermal Envelope Professional?
I am very thankful for the ua-cam.com/users/postUgkxbnOKZBE4evMO5V2vroHeCjq6d_MV6wJO that has been a tremendous help to me in building a perfect outdoor shed. I have been facing many challenges and difficulties for a long time, but this plan has guided me to correct the mistakes during the process. I am impressed by the projects and I express my gratitude to the creator of this collection of plans.