Drum & Cymbal Angles / Ergonomics | Season Five, Episode 5
Вставка
- Опубліковано 20 вер 2024
- This week we’re exploring several different approaches to drum and cymbal angles in a traditional setup and how they can benefit or inhibit your playing. We’ll highlight the ergonomic benefits/challenges as well as the sonic implications while keeping an open mind as to the possibilities.
PATREON:
This season is made possible by our Patreon supporters. Join us on Patreon for access to exclusive content such as Cymbal Sounds, our long awaited cymbal series, and MUCH more: sladl.ink/Patreon
PRODUCTION PARTNERS:
GIK Acoustics (sonic treatment): sladl.ink/GIK
AKG Audio (microphones): sladl.ink/AKG
Evans Drumheads: sladl.ink/Evan...
ProMark Drumsticks: sladl.ink/ProM...
Signal chain:
Mics - Focusrite Clarett 8Pre USB & OctoPre - MacPro w/Pro Tools 2022.5
Recorded at 48kHz / 24bit
Overheads: (Matched Pair in Glyn Johns - Cardioid) AKG C314 sladl.ink/C314...
Snare, Toms: AKG C518M sladl.ink/C518M
Kick Drum: AKG D12vr sladl.ink/AKGD...
Demonstrations contain post production mixing with EQ, compression, and reverb
Acoustic Treatment:
GIK 242 Acoustic Panels: sladl.ink/GIK242
GIK 4A Alpha Pro Series Diffusor/Absorber: sladl.ink/GIK4...
GIK Evolution PolyFusor Combination Sound Diffuser/Absorber: sladl.ink/GIKE...
GIK Tri-Trap Corner Bass Trap: sladl.ink/GIKT...
Drums:
Pearl Masters Maple Custom Extra + GMS maple toms w/70’s Ludwig LM400 Supraphonic
Cymbals:
22” Jesse Simpson Clone of old Zildjian A, Zildjian 15” ‘Fat Hat’ Prototype hihats
Drumheads:
Snare: Evans G1 / Snare Side 300
Toms: Evans Black Chrome / G1 Clear
Kick Drum: Evans UV EMAD / EQ3 Coated White Reso
Hosted by: Cody Rahn
Production & Consulting: Ben O'Brien Smith @ Cadence Independent Media
👂🏼👉🏼🥁
Leave your questions, comments, suggestions, requests down below and don't forget to subscribe!
*NOTE: Troll comments will be deleted. You're welcome to disagree with whatever you like but let's keep the conversation civilized and focused on drums.
--------------------------
Sounds Like a Drum is a CADENCE INDEPENDENT MEDIA production
For more information, visit www.cadenceindependent.com
Follow us on Instagram: / soundslikeadrum
Like us on Facebook: / soundslikeadrum
![“Fixing” Your Snare Sound [Step by Step] | Season Five, Episode 40](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/xosBfmxmm40/mqdefault.jpg)
The thing that worked for me (and resulted in some pretty unexpected placements and angles) was to try to "air drum" where I thought everything felt like it should be, with my eyes closed. I ended up positioning things more for how natural it felt rather than what looked "right".
I did the same thing, however, there is something to be said about aesthetics and appearance. Some drum setups just look funky to me, but I could never tell you if I wasn’t also altering my air drumming with a preconceived idea of what I wanted the set to look like. Much like the snake swallowing itself. Lol
Exactly
Weckl recommends the close your eyes and air drum thing in his school.
Don’t forget the guys like Gadd, Colaiuta , Weckl, Phillips, Sucherman, etc, who play with drums tilted toward them for reasons beyond clearing large bass drums with power toms. I believe the reasoning is to shrink the footprint by bringing the toms closer to the snare.
There is also a sound aspect to that as well. If you listen to toms straight above the head, there is like 70% more fat fundamentals to the sound than if you listen to the tom offset from the side, and with drums angled towards you, you get a lot more of these fundamentals, which is a valid reason in itself to do it. It simply sounds nicer for the player.
I’m an open handed drummer and I recently noticed that the biggest way my setup varies from cross-hand drummers is how low I set my hihat, to where it sits just a couple inches above the rim of my snare
Lol nightmare setup for me, but that’s the beauty of it
I don't understand how people play with the hi-hat any higher than that. Even with it close to my snare drum like that it's still slightly uncomfortable to play on the top of the hats rather than just the edge
@@reichelitis6468 really like that idea. Changing to open sounds like a lot of coordinational work thought
I love that A Zildjian clone-it's very mellow sounding and has that full crash, just what you'd expect from the older As. Love the ideas being put into your channel!
I've really enjoyed your videos. Every one that I've watched has made me rethink at least some aspect of my playing and or set up. Especially your videos on tuning. Thank you for the great content!
Excellent! That's our goal. Glad you're enjoying the series!
For decades I've tilted all my drums and cymbals slightly toward the center of the kit so that I can transition between them knowing I will always have the same angle of strike. Having the rims as close together as possible also allows me to avoid the dreaded hitting your stick on the next drum as you move around the kit. Some folks seem to be more into the look/ vibe of the kit, where I'm always after maximum playability. My setup allows me to switch between match grip and traditional seamlessly, though I'm generally a matched grip player. (Sometimes a strong jazz groove just pulls me back into traditional )....... As always, keep up the good work guys!! Thanks...........
My 5'4 self and 30 inch kick appreciate these videos
Loving the content of this channel. In my personal experience, I found that as my technique and ability improved, I would alter the position of my kit to accommodate. I would have preferred to have a smaller bass drum (got a 22" now) so that I could lower my toms to a flat or angled away position. When looking at photos of my kit setups over the last 25 years, I can see this evolution of tilting things away (including cymbals) to a point where being able to find the edges and centers was most efficient as my hand technique evolved over that time. I would look at wear marks and reposition drums so that I would increase the percentage of striking the center of the drums. Paying attention to these smaller details really lets you dial in your sound and style, which is what I think drummers should be all about. Finding themselves on their instruments, not others.
Some unfortunate news. Just got a Telegram scammer impersonating your channel. His ID was Sound like a Drum Johnston. The scammer was asking to cover shipping costs ($133) for an alleged prize. If anyone else receives this, please do not send any money. It's a scam.
I just played a five night run sharing a kit with another band. He brought his, so all I needed was a snare and cymbals for the change over. I got there the first day and all the drums were angled away from me. I play match grip. There's no way I'm changing his entire set up and putting it back (probably incorrectly) every night, so I'm not touching it, but I had no idea how I was going to make this work. I was ready to grin and bear it all week and try to do the best I could. Sat down to play the first night and I didn't even notice the angle after the second tune. Played the rest of the week comfortably on something that looked like it shouldn't have worked.
Video suggestion: Tips on making an acoustic set "Apartment"/"Neighbor"? Other than mesh heads & L80's, It'd be cool to see vibration isolation suggestions/setups. Thanks!
An interesting side effect of all this is our comfort levels when playing in ways we are not used to. For example, I usually play matched grip in the crossover style, and my kit is set up to work with that. If I switch to something like traditional grip or open hand playing, I’m not as comfortable in part because I don’t do those as much - but also because I’m still playing on my usual set up. It may help me to remember that my comfort level is affected by the details of the set up of the kit, not just because of how much I suck
I had some pretty intense recording sessions over the last two months and those really taught me how important thinking about ergonomics and the way you set up your drums really was for getting a great result while playing. Even millimeters of a change can make such a gigantic difference. Over the course of that time I spent an hour of every session just switching up my setup. I bought a new rack and seat, changed the angles of my drums, moved things around, raised my snare, cranked up the spring tension on my pedals,... until I was at a point where I could play everything comfortably, nothing was impeding my movement and I didn't have to reach very far or twist my arms in a weird angle to reach any part of my kit. That alone improved my playing significantly!
I'm left handed. I will say it this right away, the percussion industry has treated me right.
The only mention able issue was waiting so long for a quality DW double bass pedals setup. Reminded me of waiting for delivery for my high end Rawlings ball glove.
Yamaha kits put their badge on both sides of each tom.
That was super. For decades played a Tama Superstar that didn't show itself.
Not an issue today, with new updated tom hardware.
Thanks for all the work you put in to produce and present these superb technical analyses of all things drumming.
Thanks so much for taking the time to let us know! Glad you're enjoying the series.
Snare tilted slightly towards me, toms also slightly towards me (but less so than snare, so pretty close to flat), floor tom slightly towards me. My stands are pretty old and fixed so my cymbals all have like a 45 degree angle towards me. Hitting is easy enough and it follows the great Bill Bruford in terms of cymbals being higher than the shells. As he once put it while in King Crimson, the drummer has to look like they're having to reach for something or the audience won't think the drummer is doing anything much! My other percussion is all within flat arm's reach - bongos, triangles, cowbell, block, tambourine and shaker.
I prefer the term “fun sized” thank you. Playing a 90’s Tama Rockstar, I HAVE to tilt the toms towards me, and I found a short snare stand that puts the snare at a comfortable height. The advantage is that no one likes playing my drums, lol.
Ergonomics is something I spent a lot of time thinking about. For the sake of overall comfort and not having to make adjustments, I have everything in what I consider the middle-of-the-road. The snare is mostly flat, but tilted slightly to the right (I use pretty much every grip, lol - German, American, French, palm-up traditional, and handshake traditional, depending on what I'm doing). The rack tom is tilted toward me ~15-20˚ and slightly to the right, while the floor tom is pretty much flat. And cymbals are low and slightly tilted toward me, with the exception of aux hats, which are flat or tilted away slightly, depending on height. If I were doing a jazz setup with fewer cymbals, the ride cymbals would be a bit higher and more angled. Oh, and I sit quite high.
The reason for the tom angles is to reduce how high of an arc I have to make when moving from drum to drum - a flatter rack tom and/or floor tom angled to the right would require a higher arc. The angle is still a little smaller than I like for doing sweep doubles from rack tom to snare, but another consideration is that, the more you angle the rack tom, the less vertical your rebound becomes, and the less assistance from gravity you get. However, the lower and flatter the rack tom is, the further you have to reach in order to play it. So it was about finding the happy medium between all these issues.
Once nice thing about angling the snare away from you is that the rebound apex is closer to the rack tom, which makes moving back and forth easier. However, in order to keep the rim shot strike zone at about the same height, the center of the snare has to be lower, which slightly increases the hight differential between snare and rack tom. I used to angle the snare away from me, and sometimes I think I should go back to it. But I'm pretty comfortable with the mostly flat angle.
The problem with being so exacting about positions and angles is that it makes it that much harder to get comfortable behind someone else's kit.
+{UCA8aWLGqeIchPs1nZ8ZE5Sw} *A high seat is also conducive to singing at the kit, as the diaphragm has the full space to work.* Our fellow UA-camrs at +tarasimonstudio concur on the space and support a high seat provides. My eventual angles for the TAMA kit will have the rack toms slightly angled toward me, the floor toms flat, the center snare angled slightly right and away, and the side snare tilted way forward.
Since I started watching SLAD, I've been inspired by Daru Jones.
Great video here, thank you😊🙌🏻
I love watching your channel due your ability to talk about a gaggle of styles and music types rather than focused on just one.
I am constantly changing my kit around to find the 'best' set up for me. Snare drum stays pretty flat. Ride to has a small angle towards me and the floor tops are pancake flat. I also use either a floor tom or snare on the left side. It is angled somewhat to make it easier to play both rims and just to look cool.
Cymbals are angled if they used primarily to crashes in order to help keep them from dying a painful death. Primary ride is tilted a lot. I play open handed, so my primary ride is on the left side of the hi-hat.
Left (main hi-hats are low - about 1 inch above the snare and the aux hat on the right is fairly flat on the right above FT 1.
Keep up the good work. You know your stuff.
Get out of my mind! Man, you guys really have your fingers on the pulse of synchronicity. Been trying different setups for the last few weeks. This has happened with your channel more times than I can count. Kinda freaky. Much love from NJ
I only play matched and pretty I much always have my snare tilted about 2-3 notches (depending on the snare stand) away from me.
I generally sit quite high up and enjoy how easy hitting rimshots is with the drum angled away from me. I also like how I can take away those easy rimshots by flattening the snare out for certain gigs/rooms/situations.
In 1996 I started using the Vikki Foxx (Enuff Z'nuff/ Vince Neil) set up. Low, flat, one rack, two floor toms. I did that until about 2006 where I started using a Vinnie type set up.
These days I go back and forth, but my main set up is back to the Vikki Foxx style.
I've been playing traditional grip starting around 1997, and the flat drums worked great with it. Today I sometimes tilt the snare away to the right, like Buddy.
regarding cymbals - i think i saw a video by Annika Nilles once where she said tipping her cymbals away from her allows her to place them lower in her setup without interfering with other things (toms, i'm guessing). i suspect that this is also why Sput Searight does the same.
Another AWESOME vid🔥 Thanks guys🙏🏾
Great video as always! Some of the playing in this video reminds me of the menu music of the game crazy taxi lol
I definitely play more the pop punk style set up. Pretty table top flat for the rack and floor tom, maybe slightly angled for the floor tom. And my floor and snare are the same hight, with my high tom being about a inch and a half higher. I also run my ride cymbal pretty low and tight in there where the second tom would sit. Then I run my cymbals just high enough to not interfere with anything, and all on straight stands except the ride cymbal. (Although that’s a aesthetic thing for me) I also run a side snare and it’s angled the same as my snare, but slightly away from me to the side…
So that’s basically my set up, works great for rock. And I like that it kinda helps you be able to be seen. Often times the drummer is hidden not only by the rest of the band on stage, but also his kit too.
For low flat skins and low cymbals tipped away- check out Jonathan Blake's wrist shred style. For an angle up skins and low big cymbals- Brian Blade's your man! Great post SLaD!
For blast beats/ playing with your fingers (in that way) angle the snare towards you, it's easier on the wrists.
I think my favorite example of drummers who angle their cymbals (and I suppose drums too, but to a bit lesser extent) perfectly for what and how they play are actually both German drummers, Benny Greb and Anika Nilles. Anika's left crash is tilted slightly away from her, which I copied and absolutely love, because that crash is pretty much exclusively for one-off crash hits for me. While most of Benny's setup is very flat and low which I also love the feel of, both because it's comfortable to play, as well as because I can see my band mates and the crowd so much easier.
Played low and flat on a 4 piece for a long time, lots of fun and looks cool for the audience. Now with my first "real" 5 piece kit I have added an 8'' timbale as highest tom and finding my setup looks very similar to guys I've looked up to in prog rock/metal also fusion.
As I predominantly play shared kits in rehearsal studios and gigs, I can tell there is a wide spread of what different people find comfortable. I tend to like a flat snare, flat cymbals, unless the throne height and cymbal distance prevents access. Slight angle towards me on toms, depending on size of the kick drum and the throne height the shared throne is capable of. :-) It’s funny to watch drummers sit down at someone else’s kit, they tend to look confused. Nice video, especially liked how you say this is an individual choice, each person need to find what is comfortable and efficient for them.
I've found that tipping my Toms towards me to make them easier to reach actually degrades my playing speed, if I have to play a set where the Toms are harder to reach. This lead to me preferring Toms that aren't tipped towards me to increase my overall playing speed.
Nice Daru Jones example, I'd have a hard time with that set up, but damn he grooves so well with it, Nicko McBrain has a really weird set up as well, every tom, his snare, and ride are tilted towards him almost 90 degree, awesome drummer though
Plus he's a tall pint of ale!
There’s nothing wrong with the toms being angled that’s whats more comfortable for me
What a very useful video. Thanks so much again
This was very informative!👍
Most of my favorite drummers are playing low/med and flat/ slightly flat setups. So, that's what I chose and have gotten used to.
To anyone playing double bass drums. Buy the hi-hat to the bass drum clamp.
0:41 "coming at it from a completely different angle" Ha! Was that deliberate? 😂
I know it's basically the standard to angle toward the drummer for metal, but if you tilt the snare away from you then gravity blasts become a whole heck of a lot easier.
As a deathcore drummer, I've found my snare being completely flat and about half an inch higher than average brings out your rim shots more and makes gravity blasts smooth as butter. Tilted away from me, i hit the hoop itself more than the head
I'm hella short, hanging toms off of stands did the trick to get them lower, more comfortable to play and more importantly you can see me now😂
I consider each part of the kit to be its own separate instrument , as opposed to playing a guiltier, sure 6 strings but we also have the 4 limb independent part of the equation, no toss in angles and that’s a whole different bag of tricks!
I have a slight left tilt to mine. It works for me
I use a bass drum consolette rack tom mount and find it incredibly versatile.
Thomas Pridgen also had an interview where he said to set up your kit differently for your practice because you don’t always have your own kit or talk to set up when you’re playing on a house kit and to get used to playing uncomfortable
+soundslikeadrum *Thanks for an overview on drum and cymbal angles w/r/t ergonomics.* I tend to jack up the stool on my TAMA®/Hoshino® poplarbuilts, the better to create the space and support (to quote Tara Simon) for singing at the kit; I eventually plan on double kick and double snare for all-genres drumming, with the ø8" and ø10" rack toms on the left kick, the ø12" rack tom and a ride cymbal on the right kick, and deep center and shallow (left) side snares tilted to optimum trad-grip angles.
SLAD, as a subscriber and only a recreational Drummer at Home in retirement, I learn so much from your Videos. I dela with arthritic conditions in my spine and many joints. However, I play about 1 hour a day to My Music (at 70 YO, you know what the typical My Music is); hopefully for more time before it gets the better of me. I do have my Rak Toms tilted toward me and the snare tilted up a bit to be closer to the Toms. I think I will experient with different positions. I have seen your drum /Toms Tuning videos , but Still get my Floor toms escpecailly to sound like yours?? No big overtones that I can hear. I use EC2s Clear batter heads on the rack toms (8,10 & 12 inch) and Evans G2 Coated on the 2 Floor Toms (14 & 16 inch) for a PdP concept maple kit. Clear single ply standard reso heads on all of them. I use Gatt tape on the reso heads which helps and Evans E-Rings on all of the Toms except the 8 inch (also use the G2 coated batter head on this drum). Tuning is an Art I have come to learn. PS: I resurrected playing drums after 50 Yeas (1969). Once the beat enetrs the Blood Stream, it's hard to purge that Feeling.
As a (handshake) traditional player, I go for flat and low. My snare drum in particular is dead flat. I think this comes from years of drum corps and orchestral playing. I don't have any issues catching rim shots because I sit low. The snare playing surface is at my navel instead of just below the belt where most drummers seem to like it. I can cope with other arrangements, but this is what feels like home. Just goes to show everyone's style and body mechanics are a little different.
Talking about Iron Maiden and angles... there's Nicko McBrain's ride at the background :DDD
...true...or DC...
Something not mentioned here is to play open-handed vs closed-handed (or crossed) I play open handed for almost everything but occasionally will switch to closed/crossed for some things. I find that open handed gives you a lot more room and speed to move around the kit, but maybe loose some detail control on the hats.
I am a right-handed person too, that plays a right-handed kit.
Pleade consider a show on bearing edges on the same drum. They have gone out business now but NU'EDG made interchangeable edges. Maybe you could get them used online or loan them from a viewer.
We don’t have any sort of budget for purchasing equipment for SLaD right now. We’d love to do a whole series of comparison videos that would require lots of custom builds and offer a variety of informative, true single-variable back-to-backs but that would require some serious funding, either through a presenting sponsor or a significant increase in Patreon supporters.
The first rock drummer I’ve seen play with his snare SUPER tilted away from him is Mike Fuentes from the band Pierce The Veil. Being the scene kid I was in high school I tried to emulate him and realized quickly it doesn’t work for 5’7 dudes like me. The reason it works for him is because he’s like 8 feet tall lol
Back in the 70s when I had no technique and basically just hammered the drums, I had my rack toms and floor tom tilted toward me at maybe about a thirty-five degree angle. I still use matched grip, but I crave rebound now, and so I have everything mostly flat, but angled ever-so-slightly toward me, in the interest of ergonomics. A friend of mine plays EVERY backbeat as a rimshot, so he angles his snare away from him, but I don't want rimshots to be obligatory, so I have mine level.
I think the ultimate "level drum" guy would have to be Bill Bruford, and what I call his "tabletop" kit that he played in Earthworks.
You're friend should learn some dinámics. Id be deaf if i were to do that always!
Great video.... how much does the style of music being played factor in to this? And grip used? Just strickly personal preference plus ergo factor? I’d love to hear ideas and thoughts. Thanks again🥁
For cymbal angles, rule of thumb I use is if I'm only going to crash it, point it at my nipples, if I'm going to crash and ride it, point it at my belly button. At any height that'll give you the angle
...hmm...good one...
Great! Thx!
As a 12 year old I set up my 4 piece low and flat… 12 years later I still set them up that way.
you skipped one very popular and unusual snare setup - the "black metal" snare. Very low between the legs, tilted towards you. Impossible to play a rimshot, impossible to play in German grip. But I guess it makes it easier to play blast beats and skank-beat in French grip. The highhat in this case is pretty high too, almost at 9 o'clock to you.
I’m bummed he didn’t touch on the height of the ride, I started playing mine real high up and angled more towards me, most comfortable I’ve ever been playing a cymbal. Motion is like reading a newspaper, super fluid.
Because I play deep power toms, it’s physically impossible for me to play them without tilting them towards me. Otherwise all I hit is rim, because they’re just too high.
Completely understandable!
Thank you kindly for a wonderful video, as always! Just one thought: in my humble opinion, too-easy ergonomics encourages the 'nervous twitch' type drumming - where everything becomes a reflex. Having to move a bit makes you think about what you're doing, which I think is a good thing - especially in a world in which people tend to make what they've practiced determine what they play, rather than what the music is doing.
You didn’t mention snare tipped towards you.
I’ve always played with my snare tilted towards me. Flat feels a little uncomfortable and tilted away feels ridiculously uncomfortable to me.
Tipped away setups are largely dependent on how large of a Drumset you're using
Keep in mind... The angle of the dangle is directly proportional to the heat of the beat!
Oh, man, I've seen so many weird setups over the years. I'm 6'4 and I live in Japan, but I don't think it makes too much of a difference to be honest. It's just personal preference and personal drumming techniques. My best advice is to never criticize another drummer's setup. Just talk about it and ask why with sincerity. Ive made many new friends that way! Always be cool and accepting!
100%! We'd recommend this approach to just about everything in life.
.if the stick gets away from you,you do not want the stick striking you back ...an angled snare and flat Tom's help prevent that...you'll poke your eye out kid.📺
Can you get Dave Lombardo for the next video?
🤘
Pop punk flat setup for dayssssss
metlicca...dave lombardo ?
or you can just be like damon che from don caballero
Interesting I always pronounced it "bow" not "bow".
Potato vs. potato, right? 😉
Buddy Rich had his crash cymbals very flat, as well as his ride, at rack tom level, or even lower..
I like flat crashes so I hit them with just the tip accidentally less often. Nothing worse than going for a big crash and... Ping!
I'm so glad I don't live in the power tom era. I really hope it doesn't come back, either.
How many baby boomer drummers, switched to Ringo’s set up, after the 1964 Ed Sullivan Show…and bought Ludwigs.
I couldn't watch the first 15 seconds, it looks like something from a movie that an actor who has no musical experience "acts" like they're playing the drums lol
You’re too kind. Hope you enjoyed the rest of the episode. Have a lovely day.
🤘
🤘