When I was 16 I also couldn’t afford my back then ‚dream system“ (with some Denon mono blocks etc), so I bought NOTHING. Then I forgot about Hifi completely because there where many other things way more important … until I rediscovered Hifi when I was about 31. Then I started to build a good system and in the beginning with some help of my Hifi-dealer who called me up when he got in interesting (HighEnd) USED gear back in from some rich guys who got bored with it, I step by step built my real dream system myself within about a decade. This hobby is a JOURNEY, not a plug in and play one box fits all kind of thing…! That is truly my experience.
Your way of thinking is a bit unruly, when your way of thinking should really be much more flexible and linear, that's why years ago I personally went to the Finnish genelec collections of active speakers (the market leader in studio speakers), which already have the room repair option inside the speakers and almost limitless customization options sound with the joint functions of the room and your ears, or using a visual grade report how your room really behaves. With certain aes/ebu connections, you can get sound quality at its purest and with cheap xlr 110 ohm cables already. In this way, the sound solution models are more flexible and the overall sound quality gives you the dream that everyone pursues in one way or another. The road is either very long and expensive, or it is short and smart and even reasonably priced.
About a year ago out of curiosity about "new tech" I picked up a Daniel Hertz Maria 50 amp, slightly used for under 10k. Ended up replacing much more expensive separates like dac, reclocker, preamp, amp, interconnects. Big upgrade, never thought about upgrading those since.
The real golden age of HighEnd gear regarding build quality and sound quality…was in the 2000‘s ! Generally speaking. Some brands had their peak already in the 80s …thinking of Mark Levinson for example.
Hey there ! Another very interesting discussion ..you mentioned critical subjects and have an eye on the future 🔮 To be honest , the recent videos you have uploaded from the exhibition ,are perhaps the only that i have enjoyed in my life from hifi events (and i have seen so many )...Congratulations !
We liked it so much , furthermore because you discussed the current situation , thinking and analyzing the trends and how things maybe are going to change in the future ! And all these (including the interviews )in a nice and simple way ! Don't forget to mention : You're a a fantastic duo!.. also trio-quartet,etc with the rest of the people in the studio ! Thanks 🙏
Still, I think something needs to be done to get young people into hi-fi. Because if you look around in Munich you only see gray and balding people. (which I belong to) And that starts by keeping it financially feasible for the starting hi-fi enthusiast. Grtz Phil
Moving on to genelec active speakers, the 8330/40/50 models already sound at a very high level, even when the digital is connected. And you get a tight, stable, clean and emotional sound at an affordable price. You can still kick the bottom end with the subbar and the integration in the genelec subbar is an unbeatable combination.
I think bluetooth speakers (or active speakers) are relatively new though. Makes good sound handy and affordable. Mostly, it translate good enough the emotion of the music. Also: it's easy to work with: it sounds great out of the box. Any 2 speaker system is stepping in from minus 10 points because of the room it needs; and wrong placing of the speakers of system pairing can makes can make it even sound worse then the easy 1 box system. In the end: a voice from the human next to you doesn't come from 2 (speakers) sources anyway, right? Maybe, we make it all a bit to complex for regular music lover ;-) One other point though, relating concerns about hifi in general. In The Netherlands we tend to live in houses that are becoming smaller. When walking in Munich I wonder what houses can give enough space where the audio comes to live. Yet, small rooms in The Netherlands might be too small to house any good hifi system? Would you say there is a minimum measurement of room needed for good hifi?
Bluetooth speakers are active. But not all active speakers are Bluetooth speakers. We were pointing in the direction of ATC active series. Or Genelec, PMC, et cetera.
the HiFi industry has the same problem as many other industries: prices are getting up and up, but quality wise we do not gain anything. I think for many people, including myself, the DIY world for HiFi is quite interesting and still some affordable. Hypex is a very good example I think.
It's smarter to go directly to the Finnish genelec ones 83xx/12xx or master speakers and connect a coax/aes/ebu connector from one of the steemers directly with digital sound to the Genelec speakers, then the sound goes directly in the purest form as digital almost to the elements. And you don't have to worry about any specially priced cables or other low-quality amplifiers anymore. GLM room repair is also included. Passive loud speakers are so ridiculously underdeveloped versions in the human mind when it comes to the audio sound solution compared to these.
They were 7.000 Euro for a pair. Not cheap and around in a tough competition, but sounded very very natural. In autumn the epicore will be released. Also had a great conversation with the Dali stuff and they said, they stick to the prices of the last Rubicon series because it's important for them to stay down to earth
The chinees companies have claimed the entry level gear together with schiit when talking about electronics. The speaker market is a bit more open with KEF and Klipsch.
High End audio is about 'attainment'. That is why I don't have a problem with the existence of the super high priced product, as long as the super rich have found a reason to spend their money on them and they are indeed selling. The knowledgeable hi-fi buyer knows that there are other alternatives to the ultra-luxe products that may have less extreme luxury finishes and accoutrements but still deliver objectively excellent technical specs and performance. Hypex has finally found its groove in the price range between $1000 and $5000 with their perfectly-linear power amplifiers, and in the same price bracket there are a lot of objectively, technically perfect transports, streamers, DACs, and source components, and I don't even need to say anything about the plethora of exceptionally good speakers in that price range. The high end products just expand the limits of scale/size, luxury finishes, high end buying experience, and artisanship in the set of design choices. To play at the top level, there is a threshold of expertise, branding, marketing, and salesmanship that a manufacturer must cross, and that is what makes those products desirable to the 'rest of us' as well, albeit unreachably so.
I fully agree with the assertion that high end audio is necessary for innovation and no compromise development. we do less and less see it trickle down in affordable series of the big brands.
It's smarter to go directly to the Finnish genelec ones 83xx/12xx or master speakers and connect a coax/aes/ebu connector from one of the steemers directly with digital sound to the Genelec speakers, then the sound goes directly in the purest form as digital almost to the elements. And you don't have to worry about any specially priced cables or other low-quality amplifiers anymore. GLM room repair is also included. Passive loud speakers are so ridiculously underdeveloped versions in the human mind when it comes to the audio sound solution compared to these.
The industry doesn't seem to be able to think of much at the moment other than releasing MK2 products with EVEN better DAC chips (cheap cent items as the central selling point) and putting a display on everything that has a straight front. But none of this will save them or make them more relevant. But HighEnd (you are at a HighEnd trade fair) is definitely a luxury product where, in addition to the sound, the outer shell also counts and that's ok. I also don't see that revolutionary products came onto the market every year in the 70s. The emotion we attribute to these devices is based on a nostalgic look back. Otherwise, hi-fi is technically far too simple to produce technical revolutions that can be sold. Perhaps one could include calibration systems or devices like the Naim Uniti Atom. I myself have a Marantz from the 70s and I also like retro-looking devices, but these are often just an expression of the fact that they can't think of anything new to arouse emotions. In any case, they are definitely not DACs...But in order to reach a younger audience, it makes no sense to sell a Homepod with the Burmester logo. The market is there (Apple, JBL, Marshall, Sonos...). But no one forbids manufacturers from making products simpler and of higher quality. The beginner doesn't want to hear that good sound can only be achieved by packing every button and every fuse into a separate housing. They should just start selling real added value and maybe build more modular devices, like some are already doing (e.g. NAD) and finally stop selling nonsensical Mk2, Mk3-Like products as if they would make the best even better...
Parallel with the quest for innovative companies it might be interesting to seek what the state of the art in psycho acoustics is. Improving the emotional transfer with hifi has to be based on knowledge of what to strive for to achieve this emotional connection, isn't it? You guys have proven your point with cables, where next? Have fun .
There are still good options in the affordable range. They're just not as hyped. It's true chifi is becoming really good and with good prices (in every price range). They're still not in the speaker business but i think it's a matter of time. Iem chifi market is HUGE! Also there are a lot of stores with demo/ used/ b-stock gear that is more affordable. This can also be an alternative to increasing prices.
And I think it’s why I like what rega is currently doing, and why I think it’s a pity what’s happening with Naim. 5si was 1200€and a great amplifier. Now it’s 2000€, and it looks like naim loose interest in doing cost efficient product and instead put the money in The marketing
The prices of high end will probably continue to go up as long there's people ready to pay. And it's probably quicker and easier for the hifi manufacturer as well. Selling 20 overpriced amplifiers or cables will bring in soo much more money than what the affordable hifi products does.
Living in Asia, there is every opportunity to assemble a good HiFi for what you deem affordable. The choice is significant, good quality with the current choice to buy direct and save further. Chinese brands will work up the value, margin chain in time and become dominant, just as Chinese companies have done in various industries. In turn, driving many western companies to close due to non competitiveness. Cheers, Jon
Rotel Michi does NOT even update the software of their amplifiers after two years. Instead, they replace it with a Series 2 version without any improvements!
@@TheAlphaAudio yes, sure. But there are always people who buy new … because they want to be first owners, they are early adopters, wanna have full warranty, can‘t wait for the item to appear on the used market, don’t want to drive more than necessary etc. Yes, it requires patience and attention to get the gear you want on the second hand market.
@@pietervg5541 Lumina is also produced in China... and there are many more... Maybe Aida is not produced in China, but all the 'affordable' models are.
:( to bad more chinese products... some companies here in the west should fix there dumb prices a bit and think smart instead of expensive. and make a few things in house instead of out sourcing eveything but still keep the prices high. be less greedy ! might be a good start. problem is that marketing think it has to be expensive and luxury.... thats what we consumers want, pay waaay to much. because its only about what other people think about YOU, and your expensive set or watch
Of course, the Wilsons have a good sound in passive loud speakers, but they don't compare to active loud speakers, i.e. the Finnish wonders of Iisalmi. People often get intoxicated by the high-end drug on the market, which advertising brands insidiously mold you and many others into thinking about things you don't yet know about. In any case, that world is still badly unfinished in terms of technology. Even the most expensive passive solutions are lagging behind technology compared to active loudspeakers due to digital and dsp room repair solutions.
@@TheAlphaAudio yes true. I like your channel a lot. I am an audiophile and a physicist so appreciate the combination of measurements and listening. Thank you.
Thank you so much for your videos in general but especially today for you High End Munich talks.
Welcome!
Great video, you guys have the best audio channel on UA-cam.
Very nicely said.
When I was 16 I also couldn’t afford my back then ‚dream system“ (with some Denon mono blocks etc), so I bought NOTHING.
Then I forgot about Hifi completely because there where many other things way more important … until I rediscovered Hifi when I was about 31. Then I started to build a good system and in the beginning with some help of my Hifi-dealer who called me up when he got in interesting (HighEnd) USED gear back in from some rich guys who got bored with it, I step by step built my real dream system myself within about a decade. This hobby is a JOURNEY, not a plug in and play one box fits all kind of thing…! That is truly my experience.
Agree
Your way of thinking is a bit unruly, when your way of thinking should really be much more flexible and linear, that's why years ago I personally went to the Finnish genelec collections of active speakers (the market leader in studio speakers), which already have the room repair option inside the speakers and almost limitless customization options sound with the joint functions of the room and your ears, or using a visual grade report how your room really behaves. With certain aes/ebu connections, you can get sound quality at its purest and with cheap xlr 110 ohm cables already.
In this way, the sound solution models are more flexible and the overall sound quality gives you the dream that everyone pursues in one way or another. The road is either very long and expensive, or it is short and smart and even reasonably priced.
Thanks for this, it was much more interesting than endless gear porn. Look forward to your interviews with producers.
About a year ago out of curiosity about "new tech" I picked up a Daniel Hertz Maria 50 amp, slightly used for under 10k. Ended up replacing much more expensive separates like dac, reclocker, preamp, amp, interconnects. Big upgrade, never thought about upgrading those since.
Congrats!
You are Simply Great Guys!
Down to earth 😊👏🙏
The real golden age of HighEnd gear regarding build quality and sound quality…was in the 2000‘s ! Generally speaking. Some brands had their peak already in the 80s …thinking of Mark Levinson for example.
Enjoyed this poetic overview thx!
Hey there ! Another very interesting discussion ..you mentioned critical subjects and have an eye on the future 🔮 To be honest , the recent videos you have uploaded from the exhibition ,are perhaps the only that i have enjoyed in my life from hifi events (and i have seen so many )...Congratulations !
Well, thank you very much for your kind words! Frankly, we didn't expect this much approval and useful contributions to the topic. Thanks again.
We liked it so much , furthermore because you discussed the current situation , thinking and analyzing the trends and how things maybe are going to change in the future ! And all these (including the interviews )in a nice and simple way !
Don't forget to mention : You're a a fantastic duo!.. also trio-quartet,etc with the rest of the people in the studio !
Thanks 🙏
Still, I think something needs to be done to get young people into hi-fi.
Because if you look around in Munich you only see gray and balding people. (which I belong to)
And that starts by keeping it financially feasible for the starting hi-fi enthusiast.
Grtz Phil
Hi Phil, that's why we are seriously considering going to Warsaw in November. This audio/video show seems to be attracting a new, young audience.
Moving on to genelec active speakers, the 8330/40/50 models already sound at a very high level, even when the digital is connected. And you get a tight, stable, clean and emotional sound at an affordable price. You can still kick the bottom end with the subbar and the integration in the genelec subbar is an unbeatable combination.
I think bluetooth speakers (or active speakers) are relatively new though. Makes good sound handy and affordable. Mostly, it translate good enough the emotion of the music. Also: it's easy to work with: it sounds great out of the box. Any 2 speaker system is stepping in from minus 10 points because of the room it needs; and wrong placing of the speakers of system pairing can makes can make it even sound worse then the easy 1 box system. In the end: a voice from the human next to you doesn't come from 2 (speakers) sources anyway, right? Maybe, we make it all a bit to complex for regular music lover ;-)
One other point though, relating concerns about hifi in general. In The Netherlands we tend to live in houses that are becoming smaller. When walking in Munich I wonder what houses can give enough space where the audio comes to live. Yet, small rooms in The Netherlands might be too small to house any good hifi system? Would you say there is a minimum measurement of room needed for good hifi?
Bluetooth speakers are active. But not all active speakers are Bluetooth speakers. We were pointing in the direction of ATC active series. Or Genelec, PMC, et cetera.
the HiFi industry has the same problem as many other industries: prices are getting up and up, but quality wise we do not gain anything.
I think for many people, including myself, the DIY world for HiFi is quite interesting and still some affordable. Hypex is a very good example I think.
It's smarter to go directly to the Finnish genelec ones 83xx/12xx or master speakers and connect a coax/aes/ebu connector from one of the steemers directly with digital sound to the Genelec speakers, then the sound goes directly in the purest form as digital almost to the elements. And you don't have to worry about any specially priced cables or other low-quality amplifiers anymore.
GLM room repair is also included. Passive loud speakers are so ridiculously underdeveloped versions in the human mind when it comes to the audio sound solution compared to these.
The new dali rubicore series is affordable and was very, very good in comparison to systems costing 10x more :) do you agree?
I haven't heard it yet... but DALI makes great speakers.
They were 7.000 Euro for a pair. Not cheap and around in a tough competition, but sounded very very natural. In autumn the epicore will be released. Also had a great conversation with the Dali stuff and they said, they stick to the prices of the last Rubicon series because it's important for them to stay down to earth
The biggest problem is poor quality recordings😢
Didnt you talk about high prices yesterday? I get it, we all hate it but lets move on to rooms that sounded great and new gear introduced.
There are a gazillion UA-cam channels out there which will give you what you need.
The chinees companies have claimed the entry level gear together with schiit when talking about electronics. The speaker market is a bit more open with KEF and Klipsch.
Isn’t Key a Chinese owned company?
That's right I forgot
High End audio is about 'attainment'. That is why I don't have a problem with the existence of the super high priced product, as long as the super rich have found a reason to spend their money on them and they are indeed selling. The knowledgeable hi-fi buyer knows that there are other alternatives to the ultra-luxe products that may have less extreme luxury finishes and accoutrements but still deliver objectively excellent technical specs and performance. Hypex has finally found its groove in the price range between $1000 and $5000 with their perfectly-linear power amplifiers, and in the same price bracket there are a lot of objectively, technically perfect transports, streamers, DACs, and source components, and I don't even need to say anything about the plethora of exceptionally good speakers in that price range. The high end products just expand the limits of scale/size, luxury finishes, high end buying experience, and artisanship in the set of design choices. To play at the top level, there is a threshold of expertise, branding, marketing, and salesmanship that a manufacturer must cross, and that is what makes those products desirable to the 'rest of us' as well, albeit unreachably so.
I fully agree with the assertion that high end audio is necessary for innovation and no compromise development. we do less and less see it trickle down in affordable series of the big brands.
It's smarter to go directly to the Finnish genelec ones 83xx/12xx or master speakers and connect a coax/aes/ebu connector from one of the steemers directly with digital sound to the Genelec speakers, then the sound goes directly in the purest form as digital almost to the elements. And you don't have to worry about any specially priced cables or other low-quality amplifiers anymore.
GLM room repair is also included. Passive loud speakers are so ridiculously underdeveloped versions in the human mind when it comes to the audio sound solution compared to these.
@@oliivioljy9700 yes, Genelec is a great brand (as are most studio brands in the league of Genelec). Price/quality ratio is very good.
The industry doesn't seem to be able to think of much at the moment other than releasing MK2 products with EVEN better DAC chips (cheap cent items as the central selling point) and putting a display on everything that has a straight front. But none of this will save them or make them more relevant. But HighEnd (you are at a HighEnd trade fair) is definitely a luxury product where, in addition to the sound, the outer shell also counts and that's ok. I also don't see that revolutionary products came onto the market every year in the 70s. The emotion we attribute to these devices is based on a nostalgic look back. Otherwise, hi-fi is technically far too simple to produce technical revolutions that can be sold. Perhaps one could include calibration systems or devices like the Naim Uniti Atom. I myself have a Marantz from the 70s and I also like retro-looking devices, but these are often just an expression of the fact that they can't think of anything new to arouse emotions. In any case, they are definitely not DACs...But in order to reach a younger audience, it makes no sense to sell a Homepod with the Burmester logo. The market is there (Apple, JBL, Marshall, Sonos...). But no one forbids manufacturers from making products simpler and of higher quality. The beginner doesn't want to hear that good sound can only be achieved by packing every button and every fuse into a separate housing. They should just start selling real added value and maybe build more modular devices, like some are already doing (e.g. NAD) and finally stop selling nonsensical Mk2, Mk3-Like products as if they would make the best even better...
Parallel with the quest for innovative companies it might be interesting to seek what the state of the art in psycho acoustics is. Improving the emotional transfer with hifi has to be based on knowledge of what to strive for to achieve this emotional connection, isn't it?
You guys have proven your point with cables, where next?
Have fun .
haha, very interesting suggestion!
Not sure if a hyped brand like eversolo will exist in 10 years. Interesting discussion.
We will see, indeed.
There are still good options in the affordable range. They're just not as hyped. It's true chifi is becoming really good and with good prices (in every price range). They're still not in the speaker business but i think it's a matter of time. Iem chifi market is HUGE! Also there are a lot of stores with demo/ used/ b-stock gear that is more affordable. This can also be an alternative to increasing prices.
And I think it’s why I like what rega is currently doing, and why I think it’s a pity what’s happening with Naim. 5si was 1200€and a great amplifier. Now it’s 2000€, and it looks like naim loose interest in doing cost efficient product and instead put the money in The marketing
The prices of high end will probably continue to go up as long there's people ready to pay.
And it's probably quicker and easier for the hifi manufacturer as well. Selling 20 overpriced amplifiers or cables will bring in soo much more money than what the affordable hifi products does.
Living in Asia, there is every opportunity to assemble a good HiFi for what you deem affordable. The choice is significant, good quality with the current choice to buy direct and save further.
Chinese brands will work up the value, margin chain in time and become dominant, just as Chinese companies have done in various industries. In turn, driving many western companies to close due to non competitiveness.
Cheers, Jon
👍🌟🌟👍
Rotel Michi does NOT even update the software of their amplifiers after two years. Instead, they replace it with a Series 2 version without any improvements!
What does that tell you? … better buy stuff second hand / used in good condition!
@@bikemike1118 The problem is: there needs to be a 2nd hand market in order to do that... if no-one buys new... You see the issue.
@@TheAlphaAudio yes, sure. But there are always people who buy new … because they want to be first owners, they are early adopters, wanna have full warranty, can‘t wait for the item to appear on the used market, don’t want to drive more than necessary etc. Yes, it requires patience and attention to get the gear you want on the second hand market.
Speaking about revolutions. Please have a look at the Arakas sound mirrors. They are a revolution.
Nice to see some common sense comments about hifi.
sonus faber are made in china and they sell them at sky high price
Not true. Only the Venere line was produced in China years ago.
@@pietervg5541 Lumina is also produced in China... and there are many more... Maybe Aida is not produced in China, but all the 'affordable' models are.
:( to bad more chinese products... some companies here in the west should fix there dumb prices a bit and think smart instead of expensive. and make a few things in house instead of out sourcing eveything but still keep the prices high. be less greedy ! might be a good start. problem is that marketing think it has to be expensive and luxury.... thats what we consumers want, pay waaay to much. because its only about what other people think about YOU, and your expensive set or watch
True!
You shouldn't complain if you buy bad quality.
@@oliivioljy9700i dont buy anything speaker related :)
i need hifi to survive
…because you are a Hifi dealer .. ?
speakers are work of art. i already listened wilson audio top of the line a big disappointment only loud no imaging. garbage!
Then the person who owned the Wilson had NO clue how to set them up correctly. Other than that …not possible!
Of course, the Wilsons have a good sound in passive loud speakers, but they don't compare to active loud speakers, i.e. the Finnish wonders of Iisalmi. People often get intoxicated by the high-end drug on the market, which advertising brands insidiously mold you and many others into thinking about things you don't yet know about. In any case, that world is still badly unfinished in terms of technology. Even the most expensive passive solutions are lagging behind technology compared to active loudspeakers due to digital and dsp room repair solutions.
I discovered your channel recently. I really like it. But videos with two guys speaking at Munich and not showing anything? No thank you.
You can skip videos...
@@TheAlphaAudio yes true. I like your channel a lot. I am an audiophile and a physicist so appreciate the combination of measurements and listening. Thank you.
@@miguelbarrio Thanks!
Bacch
ua-cam.com/video/r161zrgV1HQ/v-deo.htmlsi=V555uiSY_uMKnJSg