What Actually Counts as "Doom Music"?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 9 вер 2024
- If a MIDI used for a custom Doom project is pulled from a source outside of the realm of Doom, does it count as a retroactive "Doom MIDI"? I wanted to explore this idea a little bit and see what you think. This is a short ramble video meant to follow up the poll in the Community tab referring to this topic. Here, I talk about the results of that poll and where I stand in the discussion.
♫ Thank you for watching, and please let me know what you thought about this video in the comments below! ♫
► Link to the Poll for Reference: • Post
► Subscribe to the Phobos Amphitheater: / @thephobosamphitheater
► My Gaming Channel: / @lightningboltforever
► Contact Me: raygallagherva@gmail.com
#doommusic #doomsoundtrack
Thank you all for responding and sharing your thoughts! You all made some excellent points here, and it's cool to be able to see what you guys think about stuff like this. For the record, I really don't think there is any right or wrong answer, and reading your comments got me thinking in new ways about this topic that had been on my mind for a bit. It was really fun to hear from you, and there'll definitely be more discussion-type videos like this in the future, so stay tuned!
i agree that midis from other sources shouldn't be classified as doom music. they absolutely fit doom well and i don't think people Shouldn't use them, but i think classifying them as doom midis kinda devalues the original context those midis were made in. like kevin schilder composed the heretic soundtrack specifically for that game's dark fantasy setting, lee jackson and bobby prince composed ROTT's ost to fit the game's unique tone, etc etc. lumping them in with music specifically composed to fit doom maps muddies that, and in a way it kinda devalues midi music as a medium since it implies they should Only be composed to fit doom
Tangentially related, but as a metalhead, it's slightly annoying that people now think that "doom metal" means music derived from the specific djent sound of Mick Gordon's tracks for DOOM (2016) and DOOM Eternal, when "doom metal" is already the name of one of the longest established metal subgenres tracing back to Black Sabbath, and it completely disregards the rest of the DOOM games and its family of games and the community of people that make music for them.
I think its chill for you to cover other old fps music in a smaller series, if you wanted to. Interesting topic.
I'd also enjoy seeing what makes a successful Doom tune. Like, what goes into that process to make something "Doom music", at least compared to the original soundtracks/popular fan music.
I definitely think that "Doom Music" has evolved to refer to a type of evocative, looping General MIDI music. There is some intangible set of variables that make something "Doom Music" as opposed to just MIDI music.
I still stand by my argument that if a song is used in Doom which is originally from another source, I won't count it as Doom music.
Are we talking full on covers or include referencing other songs? Because the original Doom and Doom 2 soundtrack has lots of elements that could even be considered stolen.
It needs that indeterminable quality; the one that makes you long to *rip and tear.*
I'm an outsider to the Doom community, if someone said "Doom Music" to mean 'music that sounds like Doom' vs 'music that is in Doom' I wouldn't know the difference, but I think it's important to know where a piece of music came from. For example, tracks from Sunshine and 28 Days Later were adapted for the movie Kick-Ass, it doesn't just become Kick-Ass music.
i like the thoughts and discussions; thank you! If a song was made specifically for a doom game or wad (whether bobby prince or "StewBoy" Rynn, J Paddock, etc ), I think it unequivocally is "Doom Music". Songs from elsewhere, but happening to be in a doom game/wad, well, I agree with you Ray that perhaps it might not merit a full analysis/deepdive on this youtube channel, but if the music is good, maybe a mention of it to appreciate it and its inclusion in a doom wad/game. Personally, the music that inspired the original doom music (NIN, Pantera, etc and the music/songs/artists/groups/bands that inspired Bobby Prince) I think deserves special mention at the very least and maybe could be considered as "Doom Music" cause it feels special in the inspirational role it has played in Doom music history :)
At the end of the day, this seems more like using the same term to refer to two different concepts, as opposed to an actual disagreement. "Music in Doom" and "Music in Doom, made for Doom" are both perfectly fine interpretations of the term "Doom Music". According to some definitions of the word "continent", Europe and Asia are considered separate. Others refer to a unified Eurasia. Depending on the context, one can choose one definition over the other, but neither is right or wrong.
Focusing mainly on music made *for* Doom seems to be most in the spirit of the channel, but I think videos about music not originally from Doom could be interesting too. Sometimes a piece of music becomes strongly identified with media it wasn't originally written for. As a tired non-Doom example, Also Sprach Zarathustra may not be film music per se, but you can still analyse its usage in 2001: A Space Odyssey.
I like the way you describe "Music in Doom" and "Music in Doom, made for Doom" , super good points! I agree that focusing mainly on music made for Doom seems to be most in the spirit of the channel, but I think videos about music not originally from Doom could be interesting too.
The thing is, Doom community has been, for most of its lifespan, an online community and online communities typically do not share the same values as commercial game studios. It exists because DOOM and because some people stuck with DOOM to varying degrees and didn't abandon it completely for more advanced games, unlike what 90s naysayers said.
I believe it is very valuable to document and shine spotlight on free things people made in their spare time for each other. Though it is OK to make an exception now and then- like Rise of The Triad! I really want to see a more learned musician and their comment section finally break down those tracks for me.
A wise choice! For the record, association is a very strong thing, and there are definitely songs from other games or sources that I associate much more strongly with Doom than their original appearances (like pretty much anything from Hexen or Heretic). Especially among other 90s FPS games, there's a distinct overlap - these games are family in many ways. In that regard, I wouldn't fuss about someone putting music from all kinds of different sources under the "Doom Music" umbrella.
But songs from professionally-released games have their own audiences outside of Doom, and they can be appreciated anywhere. Community-made Doom midis are most likely going to remain within the community, because they have no non-Doom original work for people to make associations to, so when curating a channel based on appreciation for "Doom Community midis", it makes the most sense to cover the truly community-created stuff - the stuff you can't find anywhere else. :)
Good luck on future videos!
Instantly recognized your voice! Big fan of your Jedi Knight playthroughs.
I think if the music sounds like it should be in DOOM then it counts as "DOOM Music". MIDI is just writing on a digital music sheet. The instruments applied to the MIDI make it sound like one game or another depending on what instruments are used. Now when talking about "how" the original DOOM music was made and comparing it to how modders make DOOM music, the end result is in fact still DOOM music but you could say one is Analog and the other is Digital.
Nice to see a fellow JK fan here!
@@ThePhobosAmphitheater I could talk about JK forever! Still play it online from time to time. All the hours spent diving deep into the Star Wars EU because of that game! God I love it.
If I hear SC-55, I hear doom.
I think context is king, really. Some of this music sits well in Doom, but then, so do midis of the Terminator theme or Mars Bringer Of War I've found, those tracks just "fit" for playing Doom.
So the question really becomes, what is the commonality across all the music? What is it about certain tracks that they immediately 'hit right' when used in a Doom WAD?
Going through the original soundtrack, some songs are pretty much perfect examples of early 90s thrash metal, while others are more somber, melancholic tones.
So by sound alone it wouldn't be possible to define a genre.
@@HappyBeezerStudios I have to agree to this. It'd require some fascinating analysis to figure out what fits. In large part because we have action tracks and ominus tracks which you generally can't do both (at the same time) effectively.
To give some points to the yes side of the question: using MIDI or MIDIfied music from other sources has been a standard since the early and mid 90s, where a lot of PWADs used Marilyn Manson or Nirvana MIDIs because people would like to hear something other than At Doom's Gate or Running From Evil every time they load a new level, so I don't see why we should now not consider that Doom music, especially since that tactic has lead to inspired choices like Scythe 2 MAP20 (Compression of Time, originally from Final Fantasy 8) or Swim With The Whales MAP03 (Water World, originally from Donkey Country 3)
While I understanding highlighting community-made effort, I think scouring other games and medias to bring a more eclectic taste to a WAD's sound can heighten the quality of its experience, so I believe that no matter from where, if you brought a song that has enhanced the experience of a level for anyone that plays it, that should be considered Doom music
i like your super good points especially in how the role such musics has played in influencing doom music selection/composition styles/characteristics!
Good news, if you hold the hard line and start running out of ideas you have a wealth of untapped material for later :)
I think reference or clip shows might be a good way to touch on the "not written for Doom" content without the detailed analysis you've put into previous episodes.
Whatever you choose, I'm here for it!
"Doom music" to me will always be the original soundtrack plus community-created stuff and putting music from other games under the umbrella strikes me as pretty odd. Like there's no reason (artistically speaking) why music from other games can't be used - many WADs have done so to great effect, and specifically for this channel that's not even something I think you need to actively avoid*, but, it's not "Doom music", and I think counting it as such either complicates the term or loses its meaning, because at this point the list of classic video game soundtracks that HAVEN'T ever appeared in Doom at some point in the last 30 years is probably very short.
* While I understand it's outside the channel's current scope I could totally see an episode discussing music from another source and comparing how it was used originally vs how Doom map(s) have reinterpreted it
The Andrew Hulschult arrangements of the original soundtrack are amazing.
If you haven't, check out Supplice's OST (just play it really) , mostly composed by Jimmy and arranged/produced by Essel.
I'm not sure how to answer that question. However, one thing I'm sure is that I wouldn't mind at all if you included "external source" Doom midis in your analysis. Maybe it would be a bit strange if you did an entire video about a single midi of this category, but those where you explain music theory and use midis as examples, I think it would be perfectly fine, specially if you think it's a useful or interesting example.
Also, selecting midis to fit your map is a skill of its own, I think. Recently, I played a wad called Vae Victus II and it had such an awesome music selection, from other games and such.
So I guess my opinion is that those external midis do count. They are already part of Doom's history, in a way, although music made by the Doom community should be valued more. Makes sense?
good arguments and I think they make sense and "external" midi's are in a way "doom music"!
Original Doom OSTs should be counted as Doom music, but those that take inspiration from other songs outright copy them should be listed as such
Awesome stuff! (Would love for you to investigate other 90s fps soundtracks COUGH COUGH Blood) 😉
Personally I would say that a song that comes from somewhere else and gets used in a wad doesn't stop being from that other source.
Which doesn't mean they shouldn't be in Doom. If they fit, they fit, so go ahead.
But a proper "Doom" song is one either fully created for Doom, or at least highly edited and/or redone for Doom, in a fashion that this tune is clearly and exclusively in Doom.
But as James Rolfe said in his AVGN Doom port episode about a port with no music at all: "I call it Silent Doom, so just put on some Slayer"
I don't think there's such a thing as Doom music, because it depends what the mappers intend but rather how high effort are they willing to go.
Doom 1 and 2 were pretty chill generally, particularly Doom 2's soundtrack was extremely relaxed and chilled. You were killing demons but you also could be strolling a supermarket. There is also a difference between "mixtape" DoomWads, that often borrow from a great deal of sources and the soundtracks of say, Elementalism, BTXS or Eviternity, that are both given fully bestow tracks by their artists (though the former isn't midi, it's just what immediately came to mind) that evoke every emotion from hard core action, to heavy suspense punctuated by combat. But I wouldn't say that a WAD that had a mixtape approach was any less inferior beyond sharing a music library with it's fellow hobbyists, since there's so many great tracks out there that composing a musical selection that compliments the mood you are going for.
Though for me? What makes Doom music is listening to a midi or soundtrack and *immediately* connecting it to a map. Floating Islands immediately comes to mind as a joyful Doom midi that immediately empathises the action you have to do. You have to move and fight fast and furious while grooving around the opposition, then explore and fight some more. Neato is also an iconic midi, as is Trial aNd Terror and Sea Bats immediately bring those maps to mind. Varian and God Parasite, Echo's Edge, Heath of the Feathered Seperant are all Doom to me, despite hardly even being the same game and not even a Midi because it evokes strong feeling of places and the action connected to it. Same with Ancient Aliens which is an entirely different beast entirely but has one of the most whimsical soundtracks in memory. Illuminate Revealed is *magnificant.*
Which probably wasn't what this video was about at all, but I hadn't played most of these other games that Doom wadders often borrow from, so I heard it here first.
This is my opinion, do with it what you will. I was 14 when Doom 2 came out and that was my intro to the sires, I'm not going to pretend to be an expert. To me, "Doom Music" is a subgenre of Metal. Drawing inspiration from 80s and 90s metal bands including but not limited to; Metallica, Anthrax, Megadeth as well as 90's FPS shooters, especially the titular Doom, Shadow Warrior, Hexen and many others. The one requirement is that it be written in and played on a midi device, use of specific wavetables increases the validity of the clime to "Doom Music."
To me it's not about "music that has at some point been included in a random Doom wad"
It's that Duke Nukem 3D, Heretic, etc. practically ARE fancy Doom clones? And they released at around the same time, inhabit the same culture, with very similar technical limitations, and even with shared composers
I mean, before the term "first person shooter" became popular, those games were all "Doom clones"
So Quake is a Doom Clone, CoD is a Doom Clone, Battlefield is a Doom Clone, Counter-Strike is a Doom Clone.....
Doom Music is this - music composed specifically for official Doom (Bobby Prince's compositions for Doom and Doom II), as well as music that are composed specifically for use custom in Doom .wads, either by the very .wad authors or those hired to compose for such.
Doom music isnt the following - standalone compositions and transcriptions made by a community member unless they state it explicitly for use in doom projects, nor made for other games whether or not said games may use Doom's source code or any of the myriad of source ports (which in the case of Total Conversions its only Doom-in-name-only)
I think for the most part, no, but there are some exceptions. I mean, technically it's very cut and dry, but in a less literal sense I can think of 2 examples off the top of my head that are not originally from doom but I would consider doom music. One is the ROTT track "You Suck". Passed around between highly important wads like AV, scythe, and hell revealed, but most importantly was remixed by Lee Jackson himself for the Alien Vendetta midi pack, "You Really Suck". The fact that the track runs through numerous top 10 wads and maps combined with the fact Lee Jackson made a successor for doom and not any kind of ROTT community project or rerelease makes me consider both the original and the remix doom music. Another is Bjorn Lynn'es tracks in lost civilization. Maybe a bit more of a personal bias on this one, but it's hard to think of those tracks separated from lost civ, and vice versa. Simpler examples, like using blood or duke midi, guile's theme from SF2, megaman, whatever else, I don't think usually have as deep a connection to doom and have much stronger correlation with their sources. It's not an exact science, but I do think it's a case by case basis. Regardless, I would be open to hearing about other midis from other sources, albeit in a less frequent and less deliberate fashion perhaps.
I agree with you. I feel like including music not originally for Doom mods as Doom music cheapens both the original context of the music as well as the ample original music in the Doom community. I’m not saying they shouldn’t be used, but they don’t seem particularly interesting to talk about in the context of Doom. If you wanted to talk about non-Doom music, I’d be all for that, as ROTT and Duke Nukem 3D and other games have some very cool soundtracks. I just feel like the context matters.
SHIT, about time LBF finally addresses the question I have been having ever since all of the MIDI's and The Phobos Amphitheater started question 🙃
Some Doom Midis that weren’t specifically written for the WAD do certainly feel at home as a midi. You Suck especially fits this.
Well, if you're going to talk about music from other games that gets included in Doom wads, that means "Central Park Loader" is on the table.
Almost any music can be ported to played by Doom. So if practically all music is (potentially) "doom music" then the category is meaningless, and nothing is "doom music".
Personally I would only count the original .mus as "doom music". But I won't even use such genre, it's mainly Chiptune Thrash/Groove Metal anyway.
For the people who think yes to that poll is correct answer. I ask these questions: Define what is not "doom music". How do you know that some piece of music is not "doom music" based on that definition?
Bobby Prince
i would still say that if track has been used in PWAD it doesn't make it inherently Doom Music, look at Bjorn Lynne's tracks used in Lost Civilization, You can't straight up say its "doom music" it's just so different, "doom music" is a style, not use case
This is a baffling discussion. PWADS don't add to what counts as "Doom music," and I have absolutely no idea why anyone would think they do. They're mods, they're not Doom itself. Doom is a video game, mods are mods, anyone can make a mod for Doom, like literally anyone, it's kind of the whole reason Doom's modding community is so huge and unkillable. So when you start counting mods as being part of the main game, then all the sudden the Simpsons are Doom, Batman is Doom, Mario is Doom, everything is Doom.
I've been seeing this a tiny bit and I haven't thought much of it but the more I see it the more confused I get. Y'all... do understand that Doom, the video game, is not a series of fan-produced non-commercial wads, right? Like y'all do know that this distinction exists? Not saying Doom isn't everyone's game that is open to the people who keep it alive, but when you talk aboot the game itself definitively in such a way that you've completely ignored the actual thing that IS Doom... you've completely lost the plot. And that's fine if you're not interested in that plot, I mean people can never have touched an IWAD in their lives or only ever play Brutal Doom or w/e and if that's what people like then go for it... but that is NOT Doom. Doom is a video game developed in 1993 by id Software, it is not the midis from Dwango, it is not Alien Vanguard, and it is not Brutal Doom. Those things are part of Doom's sphere of influence and community, but they are not Doom itself, and they cannot replace that.
The question changes if you reframe things to use "Doom" as a genre, in which case if you're going to do that you're basically including everything Bobby Prince ever wrote, which to my mind isn't a particularly useful genre name but like if that's something you care aboot then whatever I guess, just be clear in what you mean when communicating that idea so you don't end up saying that a track from ROTT is "Doom music" because then you just sound like an idiot that doesn't know what they're talking aboot.
For me "doom music" is just another name for midi music. When I say "Yo, check out this doom track" instead of "Hey, listen to this midi piece" it sounds a lot cooler and recognizable.
A friend of mine is a musician and he said that when he hears the term "midi music" it's pretty weird to him, 'cause for him it's like "a template for actual thing".
Also it's pretty fun to shove in slade midis that aren't for doom, like the ones that my friend creates for music school. There man, you just created a track for this cool DOOM map "Demonic Hordes"
There is no doubt any Soundtrack or MIDI outside the source of Doom fits into Doom because if we think about about it, Doom has reached to a point now to where it is way more accessible to all of us. There is one catch though when it comes to the Outside the Source MIDIs and that is Doom should have an appropriate theme, map layouts and Gameplay to suit the particular MIDI. If not, then putting any of the MIDIs of Blood, Duke Nukem 3D, Heretic, Hexen, etc in a random map, with a random theme would not suit at all
definitely not
Duke Nukem 3D: Yes (particularly for tech bases and urban maps).
Blood: Definitely yes (while a bit different, this really fits Doom in particular).
Heretic/Hexen: Somewhat (fits Hell themed maps).
Rise of the Triad: No (but there's no arguing ROTT music is VERY based and very fun to Doom to!!).
My criteria is how well these songs mesh with the original Doom midis. At the end of the day, they are all made for first person shooters.
Of course this is subjective. Now if we're talking about what is considered community made music (which is what most people play anyways), then Rise of The Triad definitely fits.
For me, a piece of music from outside of Doom and the work of the fan composers can't be "Doom music" unless it was used memorably in a major fan-made wad, at which point it becomes "Doom music" as well as, rather than instead of, what it had been before. I'm thinking of cases like the last map of Stardate 20x6 or the first map of Sunlust. Maybe I just like Ribbiks and Dannebubinga's ears for choosing music for their wads.
I think midi music made for Doom, even it's if for a custom WAD is still "Doom music" to me. But not outside music that was converted to midi or files that are anything other than midi. With Sigil for instance, both soundtracks are great, but I wouldn't call Buckethead's soundtrack "Doom music" the same way I'd call James Paddock's. For something like Doom 2016 or Eternal sure, but not OG Doom.
I hadn't joined when you put that poll up, so I'll give my feedback here.
I think any music that belongs to one of these more retro shooters is considered Doom Music. (Of course all of the stuff that people in the Doom community have wrote after the fact counts). Which might be a bitter pill for a lot of people. I think that things made for Heretic, Hexen, and Duke Nukem 3D are far closer to the spirit that the community is evoking whenever new maps are made, and I think the barrier ends there. MIDIs from say, Lands of Lore 2 or something, and certainly non-MIDI tracks don't count, even though I love a lot of .ogg stuff used for Doom. While the latter categories I never classify as Doom music, I still think they can be very effective and wonderful when used, but as far as this channel is concerned, should definitely stick to things made bespoke by people in the Doom community, and the ones from the shooters above. However, you shouldn't be afraid to cover, for example, a bespoke MIDI that references something from Carmageddon.
I would agree that community made midis as well as the IWAD stuff are Doom MIDIs but I definitely associate a lot of music from other IPs with Doom first and foremost (think Eruyt Village from FF12 or a whole chunk of tracks from Chrono Trigger or Xenogears).
I definitely think you're on the right track only highlighting community efforts though, a lot of the Doom music I hear could easily be highlights in commercial games so they deserve all the recognition they can get