I very much appreciate each of these uploads. I come not to reinforce my preconceived ideals but to learn alternative points of view to expand my horizons.
Bob somehow thinks there is a ruler for measuring God. God is laughing at him. A human trying to comprehend God is analogous to teaching calculus to an amoeba.
EXCELLENT!!! I was beginning to think he’d never reach a conclusion. As to the astonishing depth of evil, have we forgotten the equally rich blessings this world has to offer? Yes, for some more than others. But who are we to judge? Players on a stage....... be kind.
Yes, evil is necessary. Without evil, there can be no 'good'. It's too bad Alan Watts is no longer alive, as he would make a great CTT interviewee. If you read his book "The Book" he explains how every "thing" needs its opposite, in order to exist. Think about it, how would we know good without evil? Beauty without ugliness, etc.
ahh the old ying yang theodicy, but do we really need such excessive evils to know beauty from ugly, cold from hot, bad from good ? Further a being who lets animals suffer and babies get raped and all these injustices and mental health problems etc would you really be in love with such a being ?
The wonderings in the questions were truly insightful. The discussions Walter mentioned were thoughts not easily expressed. And does the end truly justified the means with all the sins and evils of the journey in life? Which Robert mentioned. Seemingly the host is like me still searching for the meaning in God's life on earth
Something not often noticed...Singapore has largely eliminated evil. There are three parts to her elimination of evil: 1) Super smart people managed to create a giga economy to virtually eliminate poverty that might arise from lack of work and resources 2) clever social programs that incentivise savings and increase of net worth. 3) lots of rules along the lines of so-called "broken windows" theory that prevents small problems from festering into larger problems. Outside of Asia many don't know that with regard to Singaporean rules, Japanese jokingly call Singapore "N. Korea with lights". Singapore is a creation from Confucian Chinese with input from Hindus, Christians and S. Asian Muslims.
I think the Subject is like asking one's self; what is a mature question in light of this subject, or how can one live forever by simply shifting thru time and space....the quest for answers never ends, but we must pursue and continue some things forever......a never ending pursuit...One has to see the Glory in the whole Eternal concept, respectfully....and we still won't understand; of course that's my opinion.
If evil is necessary in "God's world", then perhaps it also necessary in Heaven. If evil is not necessary in Heaven, then it shows that God can do anything he likes. He could have designed the world without evil quite easily. And God said, "Let everything be good" and everything was good and he saw that it was good !
It's like all living beings and God, we're in this good universe thing together. But some creatures are rocking our boat. You know what to do good earthlings, don't be afraid to get your hands dirty when necessary.
What an insult to our intelligence! So, Heidi Klauss, who was raped, tortured for many years by her father, his offspring with her, equally suffering. Her constantly beseeching God, yet her calls went unanswered so that what, she may have an even more special place in heaven? It's an inmoral, absolute insult.
Stupid Limiting statements. There are many more options but you need a touch of intelligence or honesty. Your loaded fallacy question are stupid. Sorry.
@@think-islam-channel There is only one option -- NATURAL REALITY. We could easily trace all kinds of evil back to its origin, and every single time we would find a perfectly natural, scientific explanation. It only becomes a problem when there is an attempt to fit the so called "perfect creator" into our utterly imperfect Universe. And this imaginary problem -- the problem of evil -- is itself a harmful side effect of an Ignorant religious mentality, it causes its supporters to engage in blaming some imaginary forces/entities/beings, to rationalize, justify or explain away the various kinds of suffering in this world, instead of acting rationally and work on eliminating as much of suffering as possible.
Is there evil in heaven? God's after life? If there is, what's the point? Why bother with an after life at all? If there isn't, what's the point of THIS realm? Why not just go direct to the after life realm in the first place and dispense from this flawed, evil realm?
What about the theory of human, evil, good compare to bullet, case, gunpowder. The good must be more powerfull to be released. Evil is bad, yet it is necessary to reach heaven if you compare its glory with the distance of the target of the bullet. You can't throw it that far.
the rabbi had one of the most lasting impressions on me, the theodicies are all pointless if they come into conflict with moral responsibility of the agent. So really the only theodicy that works is the free will theodicy, unsurprisingly it happens to be the least consoling. A theodicy is supposed to explain rationally the existence of evil, and not console us emotionally. The consolation must come from the concept of justice in an afterlife. This still doesn't sit well with me when I see unimaginable suffering and evil in the world, like starving babies, what is the point of that? There has to be more to the creation of the world than just "free will" of agents, the best answer I could find is that the world and existence in itself is the process of God creating himself out of nothing.
The problem of evil hinges on the afterlife but it still makes no sense. if i torture you on monday and give you bliss on friday does that make me all loving and good. Can you love me ? How does god compensate starving kids in the afterlife ? By giving them eternal feasts of best food ? I fail to see how this makes up for their actual pain that he let happen.
@@Yameen200 I don't know, but what I do know is that without the concept of God or something like it, we suffer even more, so it seems liek there is something to it. There are 2 problems with the POE, one is the logical issue. And that one is easy to deal with...God could require freedom simply because without freedom good and evil would be meaningless. Of course the issue now is how much freedom, and why? That's a question I haven't resolved yet. The 2nd problem is the emotional issue. Alot of the theodicies that seem to give us solace like "greater good" or "he deserved it"...etc seem to contradict the desire to stop evil, because now it is accounted for and no reason to stop it. But the idea of some kind of afterlife, some sense of divine justice seems to partially calm us down, without completely accounting for evil, which doesn't take away our moral intuition to go stop it.
@@hansfrankfurter2903 nobody disputes the logical problem coz its pointless. The world could be in a world apocalypse where whole of cilivisation has collapsed into savages and ppl would say god has good reasons for allowing this. Well theres plenty of objections to the theodicies dont know if u aware of them. None of them solve the problem. They only say well maybe theres a higher plan after all but ....
@@Yameen200 My whole point is that the theodicies don't work except the free will theodicy. That takes care mostly of the logical part. Which logically explains why evil exists. The emotional part, is taken care of by the concept of afterlife justice.
He put it so well. Theodicies should justify God, not evil… likewise, evil is irrational and carries no inherent value. It is through belief in God that we can be delivered from the evil that all of can agree does exist
God didn't create Lucifer as evil. Lucifer, became evil, because of the iniquity and rebellion in his own heart. Lucifer, was then judged as Satan by God.
@Bill Norris Right-not legitimate. There exists only potentiality, to include stabilizing, reinforcing patterns that persist through time and space. I’m so tired of the these anthropocentric views of reality!
Bill, in a purely material world, there is nothing called "good" and nothing called "bad". This is because here personalities are merely matter and matter is inherently neither good nor bad.
Big fan of the channel! I imagine it’s been explained before but I’m a bit late to the party so forgive my ignorance - why are all videos in this series 26:47 in length?
Human intention and action is implicit in the word evil. Natural disasters and illness are not evil - that should be kept in mind during these discussions.
I really can't explain this mystery. My mind performs the following steps: 1) Define what we mean by "god." 2) Assume this kind of god exists. 3) Define what we mean by evil. 4) Assume this type of evil exists. 5) Assume this kind of god creates/allows this kind of evil. 6) Press "skip" and delete steps 1-5
The "physical world/universe" exists, in large part, due to duality and the interaction and balance of these opposing forces. Light - Dark; North - South, Positive - Negative; Right - Wrong, On - Off, Yin - Yang, 1 - 0, Day - Night, Order - Disorder, Good - Evil, Up - Down, True - False, Male - Female, Hot - Cold, Wave - Particle, etc. is observed to be interwoven within the fabric of the "physical world/universe". Thus, the existence of Good would of necessity require the existence of Evil in the physical world/universe, and vice versa. Moreover, the scientifically confirmed property of duality in the physical world/universe does not preclude the existence of a Prime Observer/Cause.
You should ask in Islamic prospective. In Islam, you will find the answer because it says in our book, Quran. Or, you can meet one of our scholar like Dr. Dzakir Naik. The world before human exists, it was all in perfect conditions, without evil. So, God created Perfect Word before.
I have no trouble understanding man-made evil. I struggle with the Christian depiction of evil as personified by the devil… either way, I do believe in evil and pray that God delivers us from it
I think we need a bigger picture approach. Simply, we call bonding and order "good", and chaos and repulsion "evil". Yet they are all needed because, without chaos and repulsion you have stagnation and stultification. "Good" is just the balancing of these dynamics in our local vicinity. The universe is 13.8b years old. It will continue producing stars for another trillion years. So our reality is very young. A baby, at about 100th of its lifespan. Generally, youthful entities are more chaotic and less balanced than matured ones. So suffering is inevitable for the young. However, suffering may be either overcome or rendered manageable in the far future by "matured life" (which would be post-biological by that time). If God exists, its perspective could be summarised as, "You need to crack eggs to make an omelette".
.. Strange question! Is evil necessary? The answer is obvious is it not? Good could not exist without evil! If you have any belief that we are here for a reason then that reason is surely to be tested, (not necessarily to be judged on our performance). It wouldn't be much of a challenge if there were no negative forces to try to overcome.
I'd say, regarding the Argument from Logic, that: (1) an Entity such as an all-powerful God---who is said to have lived vastly longer than we---must be comparatively more intelligent than are we; and (2) such an Entity might have motives for doing things which are vastly different than we have for the things It undertakes to do. Accordingly, God's reasons for having allowed evil until now to exist might be God: (1a) isn't really all-powerful, or (1b) isn't all-good; (2) doesn't exist to allow or forbid it; (3) has given us the capacity to choose good from evil (rather than program us like robots to only do good); even, by extension: (4) given us free will so as to choose those whom He will ultimately enable to live in a future world wherein only those who've chosen to do good will be able to do so perfectly, w/o being programmed to do so. I, personally, like the fourth possibility. Think of it as a way of filtering out people who choose evil. (Wouldn't you do the same if you were God?) You choose which sounds best, most logical.
@@ferdinandkraft857 that's true until we have thoughts, since thoughts effect our will. But, when thoughts are stilled, we see God's will and can let go of ego
I do not believe in God and I never will. However, at one time I thought that all of humanity would be better off in the long run when we have both goodness and evil in this world. I think that all of us as a species are stronger by having this conflict. I would also prefer to re-define evil. To me, evil is limited to lifeforms that intentionally harm lifeforms. As to the difference between my definition of evil and the current standard definition of evil, I don't consider these items evil but rather lessons that we(as a species) have not learned yet. For example, a very young child dying from cancer. Most people would call this an evil. I would rather consider this a lesson that we have not learned yet. This lesson "not learned yet" would be how to put an end to cancer or how to prevent cancer.
@@dennyworthington6641 First, I don't believe in natural evil, that is to say that I believe the more accurate term would be Natural Suffering. If God created a cyclical evolving universe, one that appears to work through a process of creation and destruction then suffering is inevitable. In addition, suffering is relative, and what is excessive to one may be tolerable to another depending on many factors, such as the overall outcome or Teleology.
@@RickMacDonald19 Yes, the idea of "natural evil" is nonsensical. And I certainly can't argue against the fact of natural suffering --- since all creatures that have ever lived have suffered to some extent in one form or another. I would, however, take issue with your definition of evil as being "Any Conscious Intelligence that takes pleasure in the suffering of others." (When you say conscious intelligence I hope you're not referring to a god.) Humans are the only intelligently conscious creatures in the known universe that purposely cause injury or suffering to other creatures. You can call this evil, if you like, but it adds nothing to the discussion. The concept of good and bad (evil) is simply a human construct. It has no meaning outside of human existence. The universe (or nature) is amoral and indifferent to the plight of all living creatures. I believe that Spinoza, the great 17th century Dutch philosopher, got it right: God is the universe and there is nothing outside of the universe. This is also Einstein's god. Spinoza and Einstein, two of the greatest minds that evolution ever fashioned, came the "Closest to Truth" of anyone who's ever lived.
@@dennyworthington6641 I would call God conscious intelligence but I'm not suggesting, nor do I believe that God takes pleasure in any manner relating to the suffering of others. I also believe Spinoza's Pantheist viewpoint makes the most sense, or the Panentheist which is quite similar. Also, I think I am contributing to the conversation as I responded to the original statement claiming the problem is with the definition of evil.
You can make things so much simpler for yourself if you struggle to resolve the fact of evil, however you define that which is most likely as suffering, by simply removing god from that struggle, and stick with what you can observe. Since you cannot observe god, consider it a speculation, and therefore removable. Once you do that you will find that there is no conflict. Some problems are really that easy to resolve.
Why can't we simply dispose of the notion of God being all-knowing, all-powerful and all-good? I think we are granting too much to the creator of this world, if such a creator exists. When we ourselves are able to create simulated worlds with characters who can experience real evil themselves, they too will ask the same questions about their creator. And the answer will be mostly obvious - because we creators could do no better. And that is problem enough.
First, I want to say that this is my favorite show by far. Thank you so much for this. I must add, however, the theists here struggle to give anything more than convoluted rationalizations to defend the indéfendable. Evil, as opposed to natural bad, like natural catastrophes, involves intent-whether mislead or purposeful. It has nothing to do with the misnomer “natural evil”, which I admit, made me smile. I’m amazed at the disingenuous gymnastics exercised by theists here. There is no logical excuse to justify evil in any of the arguments put forward here, excusing an all-loving and all-powerful God. If there are any, please let me know. Fair warning, I would first check ones epistemology before offering an argument... because that will be my point of reference.
None of it makes any sense. If there's a reason for evil then how come heaven is perfect with no evil or harm? Why not just cut out the incredibly brief (compared to eternity) life on a thoroughly imperfect earth with no real assurance that any aspect of religion is actually correct so there's no guarantee of the outcome and go straight to paradise? They don't think it through these people but then their speil is not aimed at anyone who does think.
@@cliveadams7629 actually, heaven was never perfect. According to the Bible, Satan was already planing to pervert the first couple while in heaven... hence the resulting fallen Angel's later. Nobody ever exposes this, pointing out that the original sin was from humans... the serpent had intent that predates the fall of mankind. Not that I believe in any of it-but as an ex- bible teacher, I can point out the inconsistencies.
With all due respect, your comment is like a germ trying to explain to human being why it cannot exist (although the gulf between yourself and God is infinitely greater)
Firstly, there's no god. It's estimated that H. sapiens have conjured some 1000 gods over the millennia. There's no reason to believe in any of them. Secondly, I agree with you regarding the mental gymnastics of the theists -- it's actually embarrassing at times. But few people in the comments section, including yourself, seem to realize that the idea of good and bad (evil) is simply a human construct. Good and bad are meaningless qualities outside of human existence. The universe (or nature) is amoral and indifferent to the plight of all living creatures. Nature is not good, nature is not bad, nature just is. This whole idea of "natural evil" is simply nonsense. Is it evil when an earthquake kills thousands of people and animals? Of course not, the earth is a dynamic planet; stuff happens. Is it evil when the trachoma virus causes a human to go blind? Of course not. It's simply part of the virus's natural cycle, and this behavior helps it transmit its genetic material to the next generation, that's all that matters.
@@cliveadams7629Because earth is pretty much God’s way of filtering out the non believers from the true believers. If God wanted to create perfectly obedient robots then yes, earth would be pointless. Animals/ nature wasn’t enough; in his planning process before creating anything he pretty much just wanted one thing: sentient, intelligent, species with free will, that are like him, to choose him 100%. Thats why the idea of “faith” is pretty much the whole point. Believing without seeing is much more appealing to him than believing with seeing; and i dont blame him, think about it, if you were rich and you were to try to find from a group of 10 women to be your wife and 9/10 of these women knew of of your wealth but all 10 of them told you they loved you and wanted to be with you forever, who would you choose? Thats why earth is necessary, its a place where his existence is questioned because he doesn’t reveal himself physically (like you hiding your wealth from the 10 women) but thats how he gets what he’s always wanted, people that truly choose him 100%.
I'm a Thiest and a Christian but I don't bye the argument that God is totally free I think that God is constrained and limited in many ways if not creation makes no sense at all.
One issue they did not raise here is the idea of defining "evil". In other words, if there is not a God then how can we call anything "evil". If the strong kill and eat the weak, so what? By what standard is that "evil". If by genetic accident someone is born with painful defects, how can you say the is "evil"? If there is no God, whatever way the universe has happened to be (by chance) then that is simply the way things are. How could anyone say that anything including pain or suffering is "evil". So in that sense, the question of "If there is a God, how can there be evil?" becomes unanswerable without God.
The problem of "natural evil" in the presence of a loving God can be defended by considering life as a temporary phase in a larger divine plan. If one assumes that this earthly existence is transitory, then premature death or unjust suffering could be seen as part of a broader, unfolding plan that incorporates randomness. Human free will, an integral aspect of moral freedom, allows for choices that may lead to both positive and negative consequences. Additionally, the natural laws governing physics and chemistry introduce an element of randomness, which can result in events causing suffering. From this perspective, the unpredictability in the natural order doesn't necessarily challenge God's love but rather reflects the inherent randomness in a world shaped by physical laws. The temporary nature of life implies that the suffering and injustices experienced here are part of a finite existence. In a broader context, one might argue that God's justice extends beyond this temporary realm, and individuals may find ultimate resolution or redemption in an afterlife. Ultimately, this viewpoint asserts that God's overarching plan accommodates the complexities of human free will, the randomness of natural laws, and the temporary nature of life, suggesting that a loving and just resolution may transcend the challenges faced during our earthly existence.
An interesting quote on this: "The pairs of opposites alternate and consciousness would hold to the light and annihilate the dark. But from the simultaneous standpoint of the Self in eternity the light and dark colours blend into a harmony whose total effect is so much more splendid than light, or life, or goodness known simply by themselves in the successive order, that the utterly incomparable beauty of the vision makes the most hideous evil experienced in time infinitely worth while.... In our present state of consciousness we are standing, as it were, with our eyes right against the painting, so that we only see one small meaningless patch of colour at a time. But in our eternal state we stand with the whole canvas in view. From this standpoint evil is not evil as we now know it, it is shadow harmonizing with light. We can only guess dimly at the perfection of artistry that is need to harmonize such shadows... The human mind in extremis cannot be expected to think in accord with the infinite understanding of God." The Supreme Identity by Alan Watts
God's growing actual goodness, which brings about nature and humanity created potential goodness through free will, itself grows out of God's fullness in divine being.
One distinction all of these different perspectives fail to make - though it is somewhat implied - is that there is a difference between evil and suffering. Suffering can be a result of evil but is not inherently evil in of itself. Surely, for some who do evil, it may give them (at least outwardly or on the surface) great pleasure, even as their evil actions cause great suffering to others. Likewise, suffering can be a choice (or not) that - as with Job, for example - leads to a good. In any case, it would’ve been rewarding to hear from an Eastern philosophical perspective on this topic as Buddhism, for example, has a very different approach to the topic.
Our Consciousness is aware of good and bad even if we don't believe in God or Satan and we are capable of doing both depending on our feelings and emotions like how happy or bitter and angry we are.
I'm to lazy and unmotivated to fight evil in this life, but i will wake up early and work hard over entire day in eternal afterlife, because than morals will matter and i don't think Heavens will need much maintenance efforts anyway.
It’s too much to include. This is from a western viewpoint. There are channels that take it from an eastern viewpoint that don’t include western viewpoints. Pick your poison. I think that all theistic viewpoints are nonsense. Equally.
What I find lacking in the discussion (and I must say I'm not familiar with the show before this episode) is other theological perspectives. It only looks at the Jewish/Christian view of what god is and what evil is. I find this lack limiting for a deep look into the why of evil and of god's relationship to it. I don't know how eastern religious philosophies see evil but I do believe if a complete understanding of it from a theological view is to be enlightened, it is necessary.
Without 'struggle of life', there would be NO physical and spiritual development/evolution. There would be no Ego, which is absolutely necessary for survival. The old time machine movie (1960), everybody is sitting in the garden, and a woman is drowning, nobody goes to help her, because there is no need, everything is taken care of. Paradise, no hunger, no disease, no old age, no need to work, etc... Basically, a farm for meat, which is what it was( A perfect example of why socialism or communism, does not work)
If the absence of struggle is to be seen as a negative then what is one to make of heaven (where, presumably, the notion of soul building thru struggle would be absent [especially when newborns 'die' and get into heaven scot-free])?
@@doplardom ask Nietzsche about that question: if evil is necessary for god. Nietzsche was "beyond good and evil", he brought us higher health and good for the price or costs of destruction. So he knew about himself, that he is the most terrible person and same time most charitary person. The higher good is bound to destruction. If "god" would arrive today, everything would be "burned". ✌️
I struggle to reconcile the Genesis account with the science of evolution. Genesis says that all was paradise until man sinned. The evidence says, There was never a paradise.
@@randomblueguy I don't know. In fact, I can't deny or verify that Zeus is right now, or ever did, control all thunder across the globe ( or across the street ). Are you a big fan of Zeus?
My hypothesis is that when modern consciousness emerged around 70k years ago we first perceived our animalistic behavior and thus became man. This also coincides with a bottleneck in human populations worldwide where our species was nearly wiped out. My belief is that the extreme survival behaviors we had to adopt (cannibalism, incest, etc.) to survive permanently changed us. The pressures of extreme survival led to development of a mind that can rationalize itself and justify its actions. We have a genetic form of ptsd and it is the reason we are the way we are.
Evil is an actual existence which shows at least evil is possible. But possible things are not have to be actualized. Things could been otherwise. So back to this question, why evil after all in this world?By a byproduct for preserving human freedom?So permits evil. Or by God's intention for actualizing evil in order to some further purposes? So intents and requires evil. What kind of further purposes? The meaning of Evil just like we talk about the meaning of suffering? Maybe we learn a lot from suffering. Or suffering is just a indicator of our lack of freedom as buddhist believe? We suffer because we made it without freedom.
I don’t know. Since there is no god and there can’t possibly be one-the very idea of god is an absurdity-it’s impossible to answer the question-in fact, the question is non-sensible
This universe is awesome a perfect space in every respect, if not for four riders of apocalypse representing everything that is wrong with it. Imagine a life where you can't ever get old, sick, crippled or die, evil would became meaningless, perhaps only slightly annoying concept. There are also evil things done right in this existence, like why we can't transmute elements at will, control infinite amounts of energy, time travel or travel without movement, so anybody could shape this universe any way he like, but what would be the fun in that? Worst evil of all is we can't became like God, if he exist, he should treat his pets better.
Evil is absolutely unintended and unnecessary. Although God created everything that is a creation, which evil is not, he does not rule over an evil world or a world of evil. Someone else does. God will remove all evil in the very near future after and when important universal issues involving spirits and mankind are settled.
The physical world / universe exists, in large part, due to duality and the interaction and balance of these opposing / complementary forces. Light - Dark; North - South, Positive - Negative; Right - Wrong, On - Off, Yin - Yang, 1 - 0, Day - Night, Order - Disorder, Good - Evil, Up - Down, True - False, Hot - Cold, Wave - Particle, etc. is observed to be interwoven within the fabric of the "physical world/universe". Thus, the existence of Good would of necessity require the existence of Evil in the physical world / universe, and vice versa. Moreover, the scientifically confirmed property of duality in the physical world / universe would seem to indicate, through the inherent laws that govern it, the existence of a Prime Observer / Cause."
i think life is circle of events and actions , evil and goodness are part of this circle and both are relative things , meaning what is evil for me can benefit you and vice versa so eliminating any one of them will disturb the flow of this circle so disturbing whole life and the whole point of creating a life . it is like existence of both of them is a must for life to go on .
I like your statement. How can there be only good without evil to differentiate it from. I'm not very religious. But i do believe in God. And i think God works in mysterious ways. Which are most likely not meant to be u derstood.
Another theodicy: If one accepts the common belief that God is omnipotent, then one must accept that God must have intimate first hand knowledge of all possible outcomes leading from Alpha to Omega, to fulfill the definition of omnipotence.
God does not permit evil, for it us humans who permit evil in the world. God gave us free will, rather than being created as robots. It was our choice whether to sin or not to. You and me have told lies knowing it was wrong yet we decided to still do it. So why blame God then rather accepting our own actions. Why do we say “I am a good person.” When you should ask yourself how many lies have you told? Did you ever steal? Why use Gods name in vain? To the creator that gave you your mother, your father and your siblings to live happy moments with them.
"If I had been good rather than evil, I necessarily would not have been willing to force the inevitability of a world that is evil. It was not necessary that I do it." ~ GOD
The greatest gift a creator can bestow upon its creations is free will. If you give free will to creatures, they are going to screw up. EVERBODY makes mistakes. Evil is a value judgment. Mistakes are made by everyone, that's how we learn. This sounds whiny to me.
@@Darklake_Noble Yeah, all I know is that humans don't need anesthesia during brain surgery (after the skin is penetrated [not sure why it doesn't still hurt]).
Natural evil was caused by the fall. We don't realize how evil our disobedience to God is. We all deserve hell and any disaster we face on earth pales in comparison to that people will face in hell
The "physical world/universe" exists, in large part, due to duality and the interaction and balance of these opposing forces. Light - Dark; North - South, Positive - Negative; Right - Wrong, On - Off, Yin - Yang, 1 - 0, Day - Night, Order - Disorder, Good - Evil, Up - Down, True - False, Male - Female, Hot - Cold, Wave - Particle, etc. is observed to be interwoven within the fabric of the "physical world/universe". Thus, the existence of Good would of necessity require the existence of Evil in the physical world/universe, and vice versa. Moreover, the scientifically confirmed property of duality in the physical world/universe does not preclude the existence of a Prime Observer/Cause.
Of course I'm not sure. I used to be religious myself, and have always sought answers, but I am not willing to not question everything. I am curious if theres a possibility of god creating the universe because that's what god does while simultaneously fully understanding the probabilities. Just like we create because that's our nature. Just like our actions and decisions have an endless amount of probabilities, so does the universe which may be in accordance with the nature of god, and has an endless amount of probabilities as well. So evil is a natural probability within the spectrum of human possibilities base on human decision, and is a natural consequence of creating something with probabilities. As far as natural disasters, that may be another possibility within the probabilities incurred when creating a universe. So the intention may be for good in that our nature is to do good, but we have the possibility of being bad because our nature and its probabilities are set in motion. This kind of is along the lines of deism, but why would a being want to make you so dependent that you cant walk on your own 2 feet.
In one way which may be naive is looking back in history at warfare which concerns horror, and evil yet that evil is responsible for most, or at least many technological advances, which have created good
God is LOVE; and LOVE ❤️ requires free will. 1 John 4:8 He will not forever tolerate wickedness out of LOVE for those who LOVE Him!! The true Armageddon is close Revelation 16:16, 2TIMOTHY 3:1-5
I'm an atheist, and I am on the internet. I also enjoy philosophy. However, I definitely know the type of atheist you are referring to because they constantly claim I am a closet theist when I disagree with them. They are often as irrational as a flat-Earther.
LD Saunders glad to hear that. Really, I don’t want to convince anyone, I just want to have a nice discussion about these topics. (I’m a classical theist, no religion).
@@Darksaga28 I also enjoy intelligent discussions, but it's hard to have one on social media, since people seem overly concerned with being popular within a group. While I am an atheist, I am not an anti-theist and understand there are a number of valid reasons why a person may be religious and/or a theist --- like trying to find meaning in life.
@@johnbrzykcy3076 Thanks for your comment. There is nothing wrong with being a questioning Christian. I think the problems start when people no longer have questions.
Yes evil is necessary. It is part of the reason the universe was created. The alternative is heaven full of angels which existed anyway. There is a purpose to this world. The only question is why this universe was created.
God did not create evil. God does not desire that conscious personalities suffer torture. However, the conscious personalities themselves fall into matter (out of their own free will) becoming attracted to matter and neglecting God which makes them forget their own indestructible, eternal, blissful natures and yearn for union, as it were, with matter. And it is this union with matter of the conscious personality that produces pain and affliction in the latter (alongwith of course pleasure). Devotion to God makes us realize our own divine, blissful nature and provides unlimited joy and is the only way out of the sorrow of material existence. Once the path of pure joyful devotion to God is embraced by the conscious personality, he, in due course, becomes enlightened and, after death, never again falls into painful matter. This is because his consciousness has now become (permanently) rooted in the spiritual rather than the material.
In any case, we all believe that Jesus had free will. He could have robbed a bank or murdered his noisy neighbour. He didn't want to do those things, because he was a nice guy. God could have made us all nice, just like Jesus.
@@godofleverege1829 If you value something, don't turn it into an artificial limiting factor (currency). Gold is meant to be used in electronics, and diamonds are used to make tools. Don't rob them of their intended purpose. docs.google.com/document/d/15VwP5w9hmJcleB4pdHbRtaY9vFQ7C8eAH5qyiGYZe5k/edit?usp=drivesdk Money is an extension of the bartering mentality, the mentality that no matter how much someone has, they can't give it without something from the receiver. Giving money to suppliers communicates demand which then is communicated to farmers, etc. But money is not needed to communicate this. Simply documenting how much of the supply is taken communicates demand which can then be communicated to farmers, etc.
If God is benevolent, that implies that either there is not an ever-present risk of God committing evil, or that there is, but God chooses not to. Either case, it entails God does not commit evil. Now, does God have free will? If God can have free will without ever committing evil, that entails that the incorporation of such traits is logically valid. Which implies, either he couldn’t create humans with such traits, therefore he isn’t omnipotent. Or, he could have created humans with such traits but chose not to, therefore he is not benevolent because he could have utilized other ways to achieve the same goal (free will) without condoning evil but instead chose to allow it. If you claim God doesn’t have free will, and that every single quality of God is superior to anything else in the universe (which is a reasonable presumption to make) then we can deduce the fact free will while having an ever-present risk of committing evil is actually inferior to the ability of never being able to commit evil. Thus, it would make more sense for God to create us with the superior and more valuable quality, as we are created in his image - yet he doesn’t. Either because he can’t, or because he chooses not to. If you don’t assert that every single trait of God is superior, then why worship a being whom you may possess better qualities than him?
Without evil how could you know good? An argument for free will, God gives people morals and ethics observed by your consciousness and allows choice by individuals. How you are judged by God and yourself.
I very much appreciate each of these uploads. I come not to reinforce my preconceived ideals but to learn alternative points of view to expand my horizons.
Best way for God to get rid of evil problem would be to create evil and suffering as a pleasurable and rewarding experience.
I created light and form darkness, I create good and form evil, I God do all these things. Isaiah 45:7
Bob somehow thinks there is a ruler for measuring God. God is laughing at him. A human trying to comprehend God is analogous to teaching calculus to an amoeba.
Circumstances in life or according to where we were born or what culture we grew up in, help shape/ causes our reality and decisions.
There is no Good...
There is no Evil....
What is evil for one , is good for other...
There is only Chance..
God made it necessary so he can come and play the hero.
EXCELLENT!!! I was beginning to think he’d never reach a conclusion. As to the astonishing depth of evil, have we forgotten the equally rich blessings this world has to offer? Yes, for some more than others. But who are we to judge? Players on a stage....... be kind.
Yes, evil is necessary. Without evil, there can be no 'good'. It's too bad Alan Watts is no longer alive, as he would make a great CTT interviewee. If you read his book "The Book" he explains how every "thing" needs its opposite, in order to exist. Think about it, how would we know good without evil? Beauty without ugliness, etc.
ahh the old ying yang theodicy, but do we really need such excessive evils to know beauty from ugly, cold from hot, bad from good ?
Further a being who lets animals suffer and babies get raped and all these injustices and mental health problems etc would you really be in love with such a being ?
The wonderings in the questions were truly insightful. The discussions Walter mentioned were thoughts not easily expressed. And does the end truly justified the means with all the sins and evils of the journey in life? Which Robert mentioned. Seemingly the host is like me still searching for the meaning in God's life on earth
I love closer to truth.
One thing I know :
Man can't do good without knowing what's evil.
So without evil, good wouldn't exist.
Something not often noticed...Singapore has largely eliminated evil. There are three parts to her elimination of evil:
1) Super smart people managed to create a giga economy to virtually eliminate poverty that might arise from lack of work and resources 2) clever social programs that incentivise savings and increase of net worth. 3) lots of rules along the lines of so-called "broken windows" theory that prevents small problems from festering into larger problems. Outside of Asia many don't know that with regard to Singaporean rules, Japanese jokingly call Singapore "N. Korea with lights".
Singapore is a creation from Confucian Chinese with input from Hindus, Christians and S. Asian Muslims.
I think the Subject is like asking one's self; what is a mature question in light of this subject, or how can one live forever by simply shifting thru time and space....the quest for answers never ends, but we must pursue and continue some things forever......a never ending pursuit...One has to see the Glory in the whole Eternal concept, respectfully....and we still won't understand; of course that's my opinion.
"Is Evil Necessary in God's World?"
That is easy: Evil is only necessary in an evil god's world.
If evil is necessary in "God's world", then perhaps it also necessary in Heaven.
If evil is not necessary in Heaven, then it shows that God can do anything he likes.
He could have designed the world without evil quite easily.
And God said, "Let everything be good" and everything was good and he saw that it was good !
In some ways the more we search for the truth, we become further from the truth!✌😎
It's like all living beings and God, we're in this good universe thing together. But some creatures are rocking our boat. You know what to do good earthlings, don't be afraid to get your hands dirty when necessary.
What an insult to our intelligence! So, Heidi Klauss, who was raped, tortured for many years by her father, his offspring with her, equally suffering. Her constantly beseeching God, yet her calls went unanswered so that what, she may have an even more special place in heaven? It's an inmoral, absolute insult.
Stupid Limiting statements.
There are many more options but you need a touch of intelligence or honesty.
Your loaded fallacy question are stupid. Sorry.
@@think-islam-channel
There is only one option -- NATURAL REALITY.
We could easily trace all kinds of evil back to its origin, and every single time we would find a perfectly natural, scientific explanation.
It only becomes a problem when there is an attempt to fit the so called "perfect creator" into our utterly imperfect Universe. And this imaginary problem -- the problem of evil -- is itself a harmful side effect of an Ignorant religious mentality, it causes its supporters to engage in blaming some imaginary forces/entities/beings, to rationalize, justify or explain away the various kinds of suffering in this world, instead of acting rationally and work on eliminating as much of suffering as possible.
@@ezbody
Shallow rambling
Don’t overestimate our significance in the universe…
When bad things happen to good people Rabbi Harold Kushner
Is there evil in heaven? God's after life? If there is, what's the point? Why bother with an after life at all? If there isn't, what's the point of THIS realm? Why not just go direct to the after life realm in the first place and dispense from this flawed, evil realm?
What about the theory of human, evil, good compare to bullet, case, gunpowder. The good must be more powerfull to be released. Evil is bad, yet it is necessary to reach heaven if you compare its glory with the distance of the target of the bullet. You can't throw it that far.
@@agroforestryconsultancyroz3157 No idea what you said but nice theory.
the rabbi had one of the most lasting impressions on me, the theodicies are all pointless if they come into conflict with moral responsibility of the agent. So really the only theodicy that works is the free will theodicy, unsurprisingly it happens to be the least consoling. A theodicy is supposed to explain rationally the existence of evil, and not console us emotionally. The consolation must come from the concept of justice in an afterlife. This still doesn't sit well with me when I see unimaginable suffering and evil in the world, like starving babies, what is the point of that? There has to be more to the creation of the world than just "free will" of agents, the best answer I could find is that the world and existence in itself is the process of God creating himself out of nothing.
The problem of evil hinges on the afterlife but it still makes no sense. if i torture you on monday and give you bliss on friday does that make me all loving and good. Can you love me ? How does god compensate starving kids in the afterlife ? By giving them eternal feasts of best food ? I fail to see how this makes up for their actual pain that he let happen.
@@Yameen200 I don't know, but what I do know is that without the concept of God or something like it, we suffer even more, so it seems liek there is something to it.
There are 2 problems with the POE, one is the logical issue. And that one is easy to deal with...God could require freedom simply because without freedom good and evil would be meaningless. Of course the issue now is how much freedom, and why? That's a question I haven't resolved yet.
The 2nd problem is the emotional issue. Alot of the theodicies that seem to give us solace like "greater good" or "he deserved it"...etc seem to contradict the desire to stop evil, because now it is accounted for and no reason to stop it. But the idea of some kind of afterlife, some sense of divine justice seems to partially calm us down, without completely accounting for evil, which doesn't take away our moral intuition to go stop it.
@@hansfrankfurter2903 nobody disputes the logical problem coz its pointless. The world could be in a world apocalypse where whole of cilivisation has collapsed into savages and ppl would say god has good reasons for allowing this.
Well theres plenty of objections to the theodicies dont know if u aware of them. None of them solve the problem. They only say well maybe theres a higher plan after all but ....
@@Yameen200 My whole point is that the theodicies don't work except the free will theodicy. That takes care mostly of the logical part. Which logically explains why evil exists.
The emotional part, is taken care of by the concept of afterlife justice.
He put it so well. Theodicies should justify God, not evil… likewise, evil is irrational and carries no inherent value. It is through belief in God that we can be delivered from the evil that all of can agree does exist
God didn't create Lucifer as evil. Lucifer, became evil, because of the iniquity and rebellion in his own heart. Lucifer, was then judged as Satan by God.
When evils became powerful, god needs to do the actions
But I think humans also have a responsibility ( moral duty? ) to fight evil when we see it.
Just like light and darkness, truth and lies we have good and evil. God and evil is the way you carry yourself in life.
Is the concept of Good Vs evil a legitimate one in the natural world??
@Bill Norris Right-not legitimate. There exists only potentiality, to include stabilizing, reinforcing patterns that persist through time and space. I’m so tired of the these anthropocentric views of reality!
@Bill Norris. That is a much more interesting question.
Theism is the most bankrupt idea humans ever came up with anyway..
Are you presupposing a purely material world?
Bill, in a purely material world, there is nothing called "good" and nothing called "bad". This is because here personalities are merely matter and matter is inherently neither good nor bad.
@@think-islam-channel Philosophical NATURALISM is the assumption friend.
Big fan of the channel!
I imagine it’s been explained before but I’m a bit late to the party so forgive my ignorance - why are all videos in this series 26:47 in length?
Human intention and action is implicit in the word evil. Natural disasters and illness are not evil - that should be kept in mind during these discussions.
I really can't explain this mystery. My mind performs the following steps: 1) Define what we mean by "god." 2) Assume this kind of god exists. 3) Define what we mean by evil. 4) Assume this type of evil exists. 5) Assume this kind of god creates/allows this kind of evil. 6) Press "skip" and delete steps 1-5
The "physical world/universe" exists, in large part, due to duality and the interaction and balance of these opposing forces. Light - Dark; North - South, Positive - Negative; Right - Wrong, On - Off, Yin - Yang, 1 - 0, Day - Night, Order - Disorder, Good - Evil, Up - Down, True - False, Male - Female, Hot - Cold, Wave - Particle, etc. is observed to be interwoven within the fabric of the "physical world/universe". Thus, the existence of Good would of necessity require the existence of Evil in the physical world/universe, and vice versa. Moreover, the scientifically confirmed property of duality in the physical world/universe does not preclude the existence of a Prime Observer/Cause.
The Uncaused/Unmoved Mover is the Source of all.
I love this man bcz he's a deep thinker
No, he thinks he is.
He is a one of the deepest thinkers.
You should ask in Islamic prospective. In Islam, you will find the answer because it says in our book, Quran. Or, you can meet one of our scholar like Dr. Dzakir Naik. The world before human exists, it was all in perfect conditions, without evil. So, God created Perfect Word before.
I have no trouble understanding man-made evil. I struggle with the Christian depiction of evil as personified by the devil… either way, I do believe in evil and pray that God delivers us from it
Yin and yang. One is not without the other.
Evil is by definition a test of faith in order to create a world that MUST RELY ON FAITH AND LOVE(GOD).
Thank you!
I think we need a bigger picture approach.
Simply, we call bonding and order "good", and chaos and repulsion "evil". Yet they are all needed because, without chaos and repulsion you have stagnation and stultification. "Good" is just the balancing of these dynamics in our local vicinity.
The universe is 13.8b years old. It will continue producing stars for another trillion years. So our reality is very young. A baby, at about 100th of its lifespan.
Generally, youthful entities are more chaotic and less balanced than matured ones. So suffering is inevitable for the young. However, suffering may be either overcome or rendered manageable in the far future by "matured life" (which would be post-biological by that time).
If God exists, its perspective could be summarised as, "You need to crack eggs to make an omelette".
.. Strange question! Is evil necessary? The answer is obvious is it not? Good could not exist without evil!
If you have any belief that we are here for a reason then that reason is surely to be tested, (not necessarily to be judged
on our performance). It wouldn't be much of a challenge if there were no negative forces to try to overcome.
That's depressing.
I'd say, regarding the Argument from Logic, that:
(1) an Entity such as an all-powerful God---who is said to have lived vastly longer than we---must be comparatively more intelligent than are we; and
(2) such an Entity might have motives for doing things which are vastly different than we have for the things It undertakes to do.
Accordingly, God's reasons for having allowed evil until now to exist might be God:
(1a) isn't really all-powerful, or
(1b) isn't all-good;
(2) doesn't exist to allow or forbid it;
(3) has given us the capacity to choose good from evil (rather than program us like robots to only do good); even, by extension:
(4) given us free will so as to choose those whom He will ultimately enable to live in a future world wherein only those who've chosen to do good will be able to do so perfectly, w/o being programmed to do so.
I, personally, like the fourth possibility. Think of it as a way of filtering out people who choose evil. (Wouldn't you do the same if you were God?)
You choose which sounds best, most logical.
Evil is a consequence of freewill and ignorance
Giving up freewill for God's will, is final state of Nirvana
You can't give up free will. Even if you are doing somebody else's will, you're doing it at your own will. And you can stop anytime.
@@ferdinandkraft857 that's true until we have thoughts, since thoughts effect our will. But, when thoughts are stilled, we see God's will and can let go of ego
This is a fallen world.. a corrupt world.. we chose to rebel rather than trust our creator in the garden! He allows it because we chose it!
I didn't choose it.
I do not believe in God and I never will. However, at one time I thought that all of humanity would be better off in the long run when we have both goodness and evil in this world. I think that all of us as a species are stronger by having this conflict. I would also prefer to re-define evil. To me, evil is limited to lifeforms that intentionally harm lifeforms. As to the difference between my definition of evil and the current standard definition of evil, I don't consider these items evil but rather lessons that we(as a species) have not learned yet. For example, a very young child dying from cancer. Most people would call this an evil. I would rather consider this a lesson that we have not learned yet. This lesson "not learned yet" would be how to put an end to cancer or how to prevent cancer.
God hates evil, if evil is necessary it's because this life is a test ...
The basic problem here is that evil has not been defined.
Evil: Any Conscious Intelligence that takes pleasure in causing and/or witnessing the suffering of others.
@@RickMacDonald19 ....and what is natural evil?"
@@dennyworthington6641 First, I don't believe in natural evil, that is to say that I believe the more accurate term would be Natural Suffering.
If God created a cyclical evolving universe, one that appears to work through a process of creation and destruction then suffering is inevitable.
In addition, suffering is relative, and what is excessive to one may be tolerable to another depending on many factors, such as the overall outcome or Teleology.
@@RickMacDonald19 Yes, the idea of "natural evil" is nonsensical. And I certainly can't argue against the fact of natural suffering --- since all creatures that have ever lived have suffered to some extent in one form or another. I would, however, take issue with your definition of evil as being "Any Conscious Intelligence that takes pleasure in the suffering of others." (When you say conscious intelligence I hope you're not referring to a god.)
Humans are the only intelligently conscious creatures in the known universe that purposely cause injury or suffering to other creatures. You can call this evil, if you like, but it adds nothing to the discussion.
The concept of good and bad (evil) is simply a human construct. It has no meaning outside of human existence. The universe (or nature) is amoral and indifferent to the plight of all living creatures. I believe that Spinoza, the great 17th century Dutch philosopher, got it right: God is the universe and there is nothing outside of the universe. This is also Einstein's god. Spinoza and Einstein, two of the greatest minds that evolution ever fashioned, came the "Closest to Truth" of anyone who's ever lived.
@@dennyworthington6641 I would call God conscious intelligence but I'm not suggesting, nor do I believe that God takes pleasure in any manner relating to the suffering of others.
I also believe Spinoza's Pantheist viewpoint makes the most sense, or the Panentheist which is quite similar.
Also, I think I am contributing to the conversation as I responded to the original statement claiming the problem is with the definition of evil.
Why would animals suffer because of the sin of Eve? That does not make sense
For the people who strongly believe an evils, then after dead will be more important
You can make things so much simpler for yourself if you struggle to resolve the fact of evil, however you define that which is most likely as suffering, by simply removing god from that struggle, and stick with what you can observe.
Since you cannot observe god, consider it a speculation, and therefore removable. Once you do that you will find that there is no conflict. Some problems are really that easy to resolve.
Why can't we simply dispose of the notion of God being all-knowing, all-powerful and all-good? I think we are granting too much to the creator of this world, if such a creator exists. When we ourselves are able to create simulated worlds with characters who can experience real evil themselves, they too will ask the same questions about their creator. And the answer will be mostly obvious - because we creators could do no better. And that is problem enough.
First, I want to say that this is my favorite show by far. Thank you so much for this.
I must add, however, the theists here struggle to give anything more than convoluted rationalizations to defend the indéfendable.
Evil, as opposed to natural bad, like natural catastrophes, involves intent-whether mislead or purposeful. It has nothing to do with the misnomer “natural evil”, which I admit, made me smile.
I’m amazed at the disingenuous gymnastics exercised by theists here.
There is no logical excuse to justify evil in any of the arguments put forward here, excusing an all-loving and all-powerful God.
If there are any, please let me know. Fair warning, I would first check ones epistemology before offering an argument... because that will be my point of reference.
None of it makes any sense. If there's a reason for evil then how come heaven is perfect with no evil or harm? Why not just cut out the incredibly brief (compared to eternity) life on a thoroughly imperfect earth with no real assurance that any aspect of religion is actually correct so there's no guarantee of the outcome and go straight to paradise? They don't think it through these people but then their speil is not aimed at anyone who does think.
@@cliveadams7629 actually, heaven was never perfect. According to the Bible, Satan was already planing to pervert the first couple while in heaven... hence the resulting fallen Angel's later.
Nobody ever exposes this, pointing out that the original sin was from humans... the serpent had intent that predates the fall of mankind.
Not that I believe in any of it-but as an ex- bible teacher, I can point out the inconsistencies.
With all due respect, your comment is like a germ trying to explain to human being why it cannot exist (although the gulf between yourself and God is infinitely greater)
Firstly, there's no god. It's estimated that H. sapiens have conjured some 1000 gods over the millennia. There's no reason to believe in any of them.
Secondly, I agree with you regarding the mental gymnastics of the theists -- it's actually embarrassing at times. But few people in the comments section, including yourself, seem to realize that the idea of good and bad (evil) is simply a human construct. Good and bad are meaningless qualities outside of human existence. The universe (or nature) is amoral and indifferent to the plight of all living creatures. Nature is not good, nature is not bad, nature just is. This whole idea of "natural evil" is simply nonsense. Is it evil when an earthquake kills thousands of people and animals? Of course not, the earth is a dynamic planet; stuff happens. Is it evil when the trachoma virus causes a human to go blind? Of course not. It's simply part of the virus's natural cycle, and this behavior helps it transmit its genetic material to the next generation, that's all that matters.
@@cliveadams7629Because earth is pretty much God’s way of filtering out the non believers from the true believers.
If God wanted to create perfectly obedient robots then yes, earth would be pointless. Animals/ nature wasn’t enough; in his planning process before creating anything he pretty much just wanted one thing: sentient, intelligent, species with free will, that are like him, to choose him 100%.
Thats why the idea of “faith” is pretty much the whole point. Believing without seeing is much more appealing to him than believing with seeing; and i dont blame him, think about it, if you were rich and you were to try to find from a group of 10 women to be your wife and 9/10 of these women knew of of your wealth but all 10 of them told you they loved you and wanted to be with you forever, who would you choose?
Thats why earth is necessary, its a place where his existence is questioned because he doesn’t reveal himself physically (like you hiding your wealth from the 10 women) but thats how he gets what he’s always wanted, people that truly choose him 100%.
"They muddy the water, to make it seem deep." F.N.
Please do a video on NDE..
I'm a Thiest and a Christian but I don't bye the argument that God is totally free I think that God is constrained and limited in many ways if not creation makes no sense at all.
Presumably, God hasn't got free will. He cannot sin.
One issue they did not raise here is the idea of defining "evil". In other words, if there is not a God then how can we call anything "evil". If the strong kill and eat the weak, so what? By what standard is that "evil". If by genetic accident someone is born with painful defects, how can you say the is "evil"?
If there is no God, whatever way the universe has happened to be (by chance) then that is simply the way things are. How could anyone say that anything including pain or suffering is "evil".
So in that sense, the question of "If there is a God, how can there be evil?" becomes unanswerable without God.
so that just makes it worse. Are you willing to say god is evil for letting these sufferings occur ?
The problem of "natural evil" in the presence of a loving God can be defended by considering life as a temporary phase in a larger divine plan. If one assumes that this earthly existence is transitory, then premature death or unjust suffering could be seen as part of a broader, unfolding plan that incorporates randomness. Human free will, an integral aspect of moral freedom, allows for choices that may lead to both positive and negative consequences.
Additionally, the natural laws governing physics and chemistry introduce an element of randomness, which can result in events causing suffering. From this perspective, the unpredictability in the natural order doesn't necessarily challenge God's love but rather reflects the inherent randomness in a world shaped by physical laws.
The temporary nature of life implies that the suffering and injustices experienced here are part of a finite existence. In a broader context, one might argue that God's justice extends beyond this temporary realm, and individuals may find ultimate resolution or redemption in an afterlife.
Ultimately, this viewpoint asserts that God's overarching plan accommodates the complexities of human free will, the randomness of natural laws, and the temporary nature of life, suggesting that a loving and just resolution may transcend the challenges faced during our earthly existence.
An interesting quote on this: "The pairs of opposites alternate and consciousness would hold to the light and annihilate the dark. But from the simultaneous standpoint of the Self in eternity the light and dark colours blend into a harmony whose total effect is so much more splendid than light, or life, or goodness known simply by themselves in the successive order, that the utterly incomparable beauty of the vision makes the most hideous evil experienced in time infinitely worth while.... In our present state of consciousness we are standing, as it were, with our eyes right against the painting, so that we only see one small meaningless patch of colour at a time. But in our eternal state we stand with the whole canvas in view. From this standpoint evil is not evil as we now know it, it is shadow harmonizing with light. We can only guess dimly at the perfection of artistry that is need to harmonize such shadows... The human mind in extremis cannot be expected to think in accord with the infinite understanding of God." The Supreme Identity by Alan Watts
God's growing actual goodness, which brings about nature and humanity created potential goodness through free will, itself grows out of God's fullness in divine being.
One distinction all of these different perspectives fail to make - though it is somewhat implied - is that there is a difference between evil and suffering. Suffering can be a result of evil but is not inherently evil in of itself. Surely, for some who do evil, it may give them (at least outwardly or on the surface) great pleasure, even as their evil actions cause great suffering to others. Likewise, suffering can be a choice (or not) that - as with Job, for example - leads to a good.
In any case, it would’ve been rewarding to hear from an Eastern philosophical perspective on this topic as Buddhism, for example, has a very different approach to the topic.
Our Consciousness is aware of good and bad even if we don't believe in God or Satan and we are capable of doing both depending on our feelings and emotions like how happy or bitter and angry we are.
I'm to lazy and unmotivated to fight evil in this life, but i will wake up early and work hard over entire day in eternal afterlife, because than morals will matter and i don't think Heavens will need much maintenance efforts anyway.
To complete the picture, one should include eastern philosophies - Hindu, Buddhist, etc.
True. This program is a little bit deficient in that respect.
It’s too much to include. This is from a western viewpoint. There are channels that take it from an eastern viewpoint that don’t include western viewpoints. Pick your poison.
I think that all theistic viewpoints are nonsense. Equally.
@@melgross Why so? Curious to know.
As the quest is for getting closer to the truth, and truth can lie anywhere, it is important to consider all views.
@@natmirmira8329 Absolutely. I agree completely. Very fine comment.
What I find lacking in the discussion (and I must say I'm not familiar with the show before this episode) is other theological perspectives. It only looks at the Jewish/Christian view of what god is and what evil is. I find this lack limiting for a deep look into the why of evil and of god's relationship to it. I don't know how eastern religious philosophies see evil but I do believe if a complete understanding of it from a theological view is to be enlightened, it is necessary.
Without 'struggle of life', there would be NO physical and spiritual development/evolution. There would be no Ego, which is absolutely necessary for survival. The old time machine movie (1960), everybody is sitting in the garden, and a woman is drowning, nobody goes to help her, because there is no need, everything is taken care of. Paradise, no hunger, no disease, no old age, no need to work, etc... Basically, a farm for meat, which is what it was(
A perfect example of why socialism or communism, does not work)
If the absence of struggle is to be seen as a negative then what is one to make of heaven (where, presumably, the notion of soul building thru struggle would be absent [especially when newborns 'die' and get into heaven scot-free])?
ask Nietzsche about that question, he was "beyond good and evil", where the higher good, the higher health is bound to destruction 😉
@@doplardom ask Nietzsche about that question: if evil is necessary for god. Nietzsche was "beyond good and evil", he brought us higher health and good for the price or costs of destruction. So he knew about himself, that he is the most terrible person and same time most charitary person. The higher good is bound to destruction. If "god" would arrive today, everything would be "burned". ✌️
I struggle to reconcile the Genesis account with the science of evolution.
Genesis says that all was paradise until man sinned.
The evidence says, There was never a paradise.
What evidence denies a "paradise"?
@John Brzykcy
What evidence denies that Zeus is right now controlling all thunder across the globe?
@@randomblueguy I don't know. In fact, I can't deny or verify that Zeus is right now, or ever did, control all thunder across the globe ( or across the street ). Are you a big fan of Zeus?
My hypothesis is that when modern consciousness emerged around 70k years ago we first perceived our animalistic behavior and thus became man. This also coincides with a bottleneck in human populations worldwide where our species was nearly wiped out. My belief is that the extreme survival behaviors we had to adopt (cannibalism, incest, etc.) to survive permanently changed us. The pressures of extreme survival led to development of a mind that can rationalize itself and justify its actions. We have a genetic form of ptsd and it is the reason we are the way we are.
@@norcal_faithful775 Very interesting idea.
Evil is an actual existence which shows at least evil is possible. But possible things are not have to be actualized. Things could been otherwise. So back to this question, why evil after all in this world?By a byproduct for preserving human freedom?So permits evil. Or by God's intention for actualizing evil in order to some further purposes? So intents and requires evil. What kind of further purposes? The meaning of Evil just like we talk about the meaning of suffering? Maybe we learn a lot from suffering. Or suffering is just a indicator of our lack of freedom as buddhist believe? We suffer because we made it without freedom.
I don’t know. Since there is no god and there can’t possibly be one-the very idea of god is an absurdity-it’s impossible to answer the question-in fact, the question is non-sensible
Nature is not evil, nature is a law of physics which includes random occurrences
Animals eat each other alive, why aren't they all plant eating animals
This universe is awesome a perfect space in every respect, if not for four riders of apocalypse representing everything that is wrong with it. Imagine a life where you can't ever get old, sick, crippled or die, evil would became meaningless, perhaps only slightly annoying concept.
There are also evil things done right in this existence, like why we can't transmute elements at will, control infinite amounts of energy, time travel or travel without movement, so anybody could shape this universe any way he like, but what would be the fun in that?
Worst evil of all is we can't became like God, if he exist, he should treat his pets better.
depends upon which God we are talking about
Evil is absolutely unintended and unnecessary. Although God created everything that is a creation, which evil is not, he does not rule over an evil world or a world of evil. Someone else does. God will remove all evil in the very near future after and when important universal issues involving spirits and mankind are settled.
Evil interferes Man’s Free Will i and evil influence Man’s Right and power to choose.
The physical world / universe exists, in large part, due to duality and the interaction and balance of these opposing / complementary forces. Light - Dark; North - South, Positive - Negative; Right - Wrong, On - Off, Yin - Yang, 1 - 0, Day - Night, Order - Disorder, Good - Evil, Up - Down, True - False, Hot - Cold, Wave - Particle, etc. is observed to be interwoven within the fabric of the "physical world/universe". Thus, the existence of Good would of necessity require the existence of Evil in the physical world / universe, and vice versa. Moreover, the scientifically confirmed property of duality in the physical world / universe would seem to indicate, through the inherent laws that govern it, the existence of a Prime Observer / Cause."
I ask why evil exists too, evil rips through this world like a plague.
How can God permit evil - unless he is playing both sides!
i think life is circle of events and actions , evil and goodness are part of this circle and both are relative things , meaning what is evil for me can benefit you and vice versa so eliminating any one of them will disturb the flow of this circle so disturbing whole life and the whole point of creating a life . it is like existence of both of them is a must for life to go on .
Best show on UA-cam! By the way you can't have up without down.
I like your statement.
How can there be only good without evil to differentiate it from.
I'm not very religious.
But i do believe in God.
And i think God works in mysterious ways.
Which are most likely not meant to be u derstood.
@SamoaVsEverybody814 I'm sure you know the true nature of reality 😁
@SamoaVsEverybody814 yes guru☺️🤣😂
Another theodicy: If one accepts the common belief that God is omnipotent, then one must accept that God must have intimate first hand knowledge of all possible outcomes leading from Alpha to Omega, to fulfill the definition of omnipotence.
Neither was evil done in the name atheism ... The question should be : Why God permits evil? Rather than was it necessary...
God permit evil because it was necessary
God does not permit evil, for it us humans who permit evil in the world. God gave us free will, rather than being created as robots. It was our choice whether to sin or not to. You and me have told lies knowing it was wrong yet we decided to still do it. So why blame God then rather accepting our own actions. Why do we say “I am a good person.” When you should ask yourself how many lies have you told? Did you ever steal? Why use Gods name in vain? To the creator that gave you your mother, your father and your siblings to live happy moments with them.
"If I had been good rather than evil, I necessarily would not have been willing to force the inevitability of a world that is evil. It was not necessary that I do it." ~ GOD
The greatest gift a creator can bestow upon its creations is free will. If you give free will to creatures, they are going to screw up. EVERBODY makes mistakes. Evil is a value judgment. Mistakes are made by everyone, that's how we learn. This sounds whiny to me.
The problem is that innocent people are subject to evil from others.
@@ferdinandkraft857 So are innocent antelope. Pick a creature, and it most likely has predators that want to rip it apart for sustenance and/or sport.
@@nothanksnoname7567 Exactly. That's why the idea of a benevolent God is contradictory.
Evil exists so, there is no God. But then, where does goodness come from?
Or may be, initially there is neither evil nor good, and humanity is created to define it?
That's an interesting idea.
Nope evil exists in gods knowledge there is always that wisdom in his mind
Thank God plants don't feel pain.
Joshua Adam Stith AKA UA-cam Librarian you don’t know that for sure because you can’t communicate with plants to confirm your assumption.
@@Darklake_Noble Yeah, all I know is that humans don't need anesthesia during brain surgery (after the skin is penetrated [not sure why it doesn't still hurt]).
Natural evil was caused by the fall. We don't realize how evil our disobedience to God is. We all deserve hell and any disaster we face on earth pales in comparison to that people will face in hell
The "physical world/universe" exists, in large part, due to duality and the interaction and balance of these opposing forces. Light - Dark; North - South, Positive - Negative; Right - Wrong, On - Off, Yin - Yang, 1 - 0, Day - Night, Order - Disorder, Good - Evil, Up - Down, True - False, Male - Female, Hot - Cold, Wave - Particle, etc. is observed to be interwoven within the fabric of the "physical world/universe". Thus, the existence of Good would of necessity require the existence of Evil in the physical world/universe, and vice versa. Moreover, the scientifically confirmed property of duality in the physical world/universe does not preclude the existence of a Prime Observer/Cause.
Of course I'm not sure. I used to be religious myself, and have always sought answers, but I am not willing to not question everything. I am curious if theres a possibility of god creating the universe because that's what god does while simultaneously fully understanding the probabilities. Just like we create because that's our nature. Just like our actions and decisions have an endless amount of probabilities, so does the universe which may be in accordance with the nature of god, and has an endless amount of probabilities as well. So evil is a natural probability within the spectrum of human possibilities base on human decision, and is a natural consequence of creating something with probabilities. As far as natural disasters, that may be another possibility within the probabilities incurred when creating a universe. So the intention may be for good in that our nature is to do good, but we have the possibility of being bad because our nature and its probabilities are set in motion. This kind of is along the lines of deism, but why would a being want to make you so dependent that you cant walk on your own 2 feet.
Without darkness all the different shades and colors of light will not appear.
Asking the wrong question. Evil and good do not exist. Its subjective and the universe doesn't care for what your opinion of evil is.
In one way which may be naive is looking back in history at warfare which concerns horror, and evil yet that evil is responsible for most, or at least many technological advances, which have created good
According to islamic philosophy, absolute evil does not exist, evil is just absense of good, evil is relative concept
God is LOVE; and LOVE ❤️ requires free will. 1 John 4:8 He will not forever tolerate wickedness out of LOVE for those who LOVE Him!! The true Armageddon is close Revelation 16:16, 2TIMOTHY 3:1-5
Leibniz’s Theodicy talks about this. I’m sure internet atheists don’t know about it, as they generally do not know anything about philosophy.
I'm an atheist, and I am on the internet. I also enjoy philosophy. However, I definitely know the type of atheist you are referring to because they constantly claim I am a closet theist when I disagree with them. They are often as irrational as a flat-Earther.
LD Saunders glad to hear that. Really, I don’t want to convince anyone, I just want to have a nice discussion about these topics. (I’m a classical theist, no religion).
@@Darksaga28 I also enjoy intelligent discussions, but it's hard to have one on social media, since people seem overly concerned with being popular within a group. While I am an atheist, I am not an anti-theist and understand there are a number of valid reasons why a person may be religious and/or a theist --- like trying to find meaning in life.
@@ldsaunders8021 I like your observations. I agree 100% although I'm a questioning christian.
@@johnbrzykcy3076 Thanks for your comment. There is nothing wrong with being a questioning Christian. I think the problems start when people no longer have questions.
Yes evil is necessary.
It is part of the reason the universe was created.
The alternative is heaven full of angels which existed anyway.
There is a purpose to this world. The only question is why this universe was created.
Evil is anything we don't like.
God could have designed us so we don't care.
Only narrow mindedly idiots will say "No! Evil is not necessary"
God did not create evil. God does not desire that conscious personalities suffer torture. However, the conscious personalities themselves fall into matter (out of their own free will) becoming attracted to matter and neglecting God which makes them forget their own indestructible, eternal, blissful natures and yearn for union, as it were, with matter. And it is this union with matter of the conscious personality that produces pain and affliction in the latter (alongwith of course pleasure). Devotion to God makes us realize our own divine, blissful nature and provides unlimited joy and is the only way out of the sorrow of material existence. Once the path of pure joyful devotion to God is embraced by the conscious personality, he, in due course, becomes enlightened and, after death, never again falls into painful matter. This is because his consciousness has now become (permanently) rooted in the spiritual rather than the material.
In any case, we all believe that Jesus had free will.
He could have robbed a bank or murdered his noisy neighbour.
He didn't want to do those things, because he was a nice guy.
God could have made us all nice, just like Jesus.
Let me say .. Money is the greatest Evil of our time. Get rid of it and we .....
Yes.
..... will prosper. Finishing your sentence.
What about gold diamond anything humans can value. Cos that will replace money and will become the new money
@@godofleverege1829 If you value something, don't turn it into an artificial limiting factor (currency). Gold is meant to be used in electronics, and diamonds are used to make tools. Don't rob them of their intended purpose.
docs.google.com/document/d/15VwP5w9hmJcleB4pdHbRtaY9vFQ7C8eAH5qyiGYZe5k/edit?usp=drivesdk
Money is an extension of the bartering mentality, the mentality that no matter how much someone has, they can't give it without something from the receiver. Giving money to suppliers communicates demand which then is communicated to farmers, etc. But money is not needed to communicate this. Simply documenting how much of the supply is taken communicates demand which can then be communicated to farmers, etc.
If God is benevolent, that implies that either there is not an ever-present risk of God committing evil, or that there is, but God chooses not to. Either case, it entails God does not commit evil.
Now, does God have free will? If God can have free will without ever committing evil, that entails that the incorporation of such traits is logically valid. Which implies, either he couldn’t create humans with such traits, therefore he isn’t omnipotent. Or, he could have created humans with such traits but chose not to, therefore he is not benevolent because he could have utilized other ways to achieve the same goal (free will) without condoning evil but instead chose to allow it.
If you claim God doesn’t have free will, and that every single quality of God is superior to anything else in the universe (which is a reasonable presumption to make) then we can deduce the fact free will while having an ever-present risk of committing evil is actually inferior to the ability of never being able to commit evil. Thus, it would make more sense for God to create us with the superior and more valuable quality, as we are created in his image - yet he doesn’t. Either because he can’t, or because he chooses not to.
If you don’t assert that every single trait of God is superior, then why worship a being whom you may possess better qualities than him?
Great video 📹 👍 evil is a product of imperfect
Without evil how could you know good? An argument for free will, God gives people morals and ethics observed by your consciousness and allows choice by individuals. How you are judged by God and yourself.