the thing that i've relied on sooo much from crafting is the future-proofing, allowing me to avoid the fomo and have a big repertoire of possible combinations and perks (perks that might get buffed or nerfed in the future, who can say?) to cater to whatever build i might think up in the future. along with just reducing the raw grind for the weapon you want at the time, crafting allows you to effectively prepare for the game to change in the future, to cater to new builds with old guns, and that's what i use it for all the time, even with just the seasonal weapons. the only exuviae rolls i can really keep are the ones that seem best at the time, maybe holding onto a few others if they seem like a compelling combo, but when i was putting together a voidlock grenade build i realized the season of the wish hand cannon is the only one in the game with demo and golden tricorn, perfect for the build, and in a few seconds it's in my hands and i can try it out, and i think that's so valuable for what i love about destiny nowadays, the diverse builds and intertwined mechanics
I had a moment like this where I instead ran into the frustrating fomo. While testing potential Ballidorse builds, I wanted to try Death's Razor. I had 4/5 of the schematics needed for it, but could no longer get any. You can't get it unless it comes from Banshee, it's not at Xur yet. So I was forced to discard the idea of running Infinite Guard+Energy Transfer. Doubtful it might have been good, but it would have been fun to try. Your alternative of being able to just snap your fingers and have what you didn't expect would be amazing but thought of in the moment and have it all click together? That's the good shit.
@harbind2 oh my god! that exact sword combo is the engine for like, two of my favorite warlock builds nowadays! (vesper of radius on solar with hellion, and boots of the assembler w/ lumina on arclock, respectively) that's such a shame you didnt manage to get it, hopefully it comes back around soon. i think there's a lot of potential for it, even worth giving up the usual heavy ammo options
I have huge appreciation for this vid. Not many people use a voice to discuss the lottery like chances of the ‘5 out of 5’ god roll. I just find it unbelievable that there is even a crafting debate. Bungie has a team of devs that theory craft and create weapons and for the most part these fantasies can never be experienced because of rng. Crafting is the only system that allows it to happen. The game is long overdue for a system that allows you to target farm with realistic probability and not with crafting. If they can do that alot of satisfaction will follow for those who have hung around
Really well put. I think we’re at a crossroads now where a choice must be made between the forceful engagement farms of fomo and RNG versus some other path of making a stable, approachable, rewarding game that rewards time and skill. We’ll see what the future holds. A shame to hear you so morose (while understandable) because making and mastering your builds injected fun into the first half of this season for me, and I’d hoped when I saw this video (but not its title) that maybe I’d have a reason to log in again. But, for similar reasons to those you’ve said, I don’t think I will.
I think ultimately the pokemon comparison works very well, since we’ve opened that door with “shinies”. Some pokemon are numerically better than others of the same type or variety, but that doesn’t stop lots of number-poor pokemon having interesting niches that only they can get, or simply people preferring the look and feel of a slightly outmatched pokemon and putting up with the deficit for their own fun. The gun chase for the game’s history has been a revolving wheel of better and better rewards making those prior obsolete. I hope perhaps someday we get to a point where the old stuff can stay for people to maybe try and get because they like how it looks, or feels, etc. For instance if I could get an Annual Skate easily, I probably would - purely because it has my favourite flavour text in the game. But also it is so numerically inferior, in the modern mindset it feels hard to justify - and in trying to get myself out of that mindset… I’ve just got myself out of the game entirely.
I will say I do recommend the Slayer's Fang build. It feels good especially with the artifact to have a weapon with high kill power + repulsor brace + felwinter's weaken. It pairs well and feels cool to pair with Strand's suspend.
You make great points and I do despise a lot of the weapons being taken away or just made overall harder to grind for, for some odd reason. Even if Annual Skate is worse than new Luna's Howl for wiping adds, wouldn't it be better to have easier access to both to allow us to play with them? Wouldn't it be better for the game if we could see a gun/try a gun and even if it's not necessarily the best, to chase a better roll of it? I like a lot of weird dumb guns for unique perks or being curiosities. It is a little fun to speculate on a gun being good and keep an odd roll of it, but I think I'd vastly prefer to be able to have the lightbulb moment and go and grab a roll from the Enclave.
I am all for more crafting. And I am fine with it being more expensive with dungeon loot for example compared to seasonal loot. Alternatively, we should be able to merge weapon rolls or something like it. Combining our 3/5, 2/5 drops to upgrade to a 4/5 for example
I've found that there's two kinds of Destiny players: the ones who see the chase as the game, and when they don't have anything left to chase, their interest wanes. And then there are the players for whom getting the pieces of a build together means that the game has finally started. I'm definitely in the latter camp. I don't want the carrot on a stick, I want to have fun playing with the toys in the sandbox. RNG is a dark pattern, so I'm always for crafting or some other way to earn RNG mitigation. I want to see the "level up" notification on a gun I really like.
It baffles me that they genuinely thought that removing crafting is a good ideia. I also never understood the hype behind the feeling of "finally getting that godroll that you have been grinding for ages".
At this point, no crafting should only be acceptable if the random drops we're getting have multiple rows. One row of rolls is dreadful in this day and age
After getting weapon crafting, I could not be bothered with RNG. I cant have fun when my time is being disrespected with non-fun pulls of the slot machine. Gambling and losing feels shit...is that what our fun gaming time at home is meant for? Great video Harbin. Glad to see you back
I have open 110 martyrs retribution and still no heal clip/ incandescent roll. Not a one. And I only need the two perk I don’t even care about the other Columns. 110 drops!!!
I resonate with you. I've been trying to get Icebreaker for the past few months. I've done what I can to increase the drop rate and it has not dropped. I've done the Master Version and collected the notes. Not good enough for the solo run, so that's where I stopped. Still haven't gotten it. Still haven't gotten that Scavenger's Fate when Demo Destab Rounds so I can complete that NBP build I saw one day. My time feels like it's not being rewarded when it comes to RNG. That's why I prefer crafting. But even RNG can be rewarding for me as well. But when it's in a time crunch, or when it gives you "one week per character", it just feels like a chore. And I don't know about you, I don't feel like doing the same thing over and over again and not getting the thing that I desire. I can forgive a few drops where I don't get what I want, but when it gets to the point where I'm months or years to get the weapon I want (it has taken me up until Pantheon to get Touch of Malice. Let that sink in. May have been my fault since I didn't do the triumphs to increase the drop chance, but my point still stands.) that's where it gets frustrating. That makes me resent the game more. "Go play something else" you may say. But I already tried that. It still doesn't change the fact that you are still tied to this "one week per character" and low drop chance of what stuff that you want schtick. That's why I prefer crafting more than RNG because if I don't get the drop that I want, at least I can get those 5 red border weapons and get it that way. It is an alternative method if one method doesn't work out. I don't know why Bungie thought crafting was a bad idea, and then cane along with this Tonic system which, apparently, didn't even drop the weapon you wanted after you popped one. Both can live together in harmony, but only if Bungie finds that middle ground between the two. Really hope they do, cause I'm sick of doing the same thing over and over again when I just want to move on.
i do agree there should be more sources for crafting. however I propose you with an issue I have with crafting, and it's specifically for raids. I've had this feeling that ever since crafting was added to raids in vow, the incentive to play them fades away, however the difference between raids and seasonal/dungeon weapons, is that you don't play raids nearly as much as seasons. And while the loot aspect is definitely better with crafting, how do you make raids replayable outside of getting a seal and getting your red borders? I love deep stone crypt as a raid but i find myself not wanting to play it anymore simply because I have no incentive to run it; i've gotten the seal, gotten my flawless and crafted every weapon. so how do you give raids more replayability without taking away crafting? what reason do you have to play if you have your builds but nowhere to use it? i think most people can agree that raids are the best content destiny has but without something bringing you to these raids there really isn't a point to them, and unlike seasonal weapons, they will never get sunset, but also most likely never get refreshed post crafting. I would really like to know your insight on this. (also i do think im fine with older raids like last wish and garden being craftable, since they're older raids and it can allow them to get new value)
i also think the problem that i have with crafting is not in the guns but that the system is very boring to engage with, its just rng with pity, get 5 red borders a week and dump cores onto it, that's it. Imagine instead of 5 red borders you just had to get 1, and it could use the same pity multiplier they use for raid weapons, but after you get that 1 red border, you now have to gather a bunch of rolls of that weapon to get all its perk pool, so if i get trench barrel on the red border shotgun and dismantled it, i can now put that perk into the gun i crafted. and instead of leveling up the weapon you level up the perk by proccing it or something. It's a way better system and feels more rewarding and respectful of the player's time while also encouraging mastery over the weapon
I think raids do need crafting in their current state in part because we have a very crowded game and raids are always a very small portion of the playerbase. On top of that, Salvation's Edge weapons have 7 perks in the 3&4 column. If they were more akin to the original Last Wish weapons where they had 4 in 3&4, I think it might be easier to justify. But we've also kind of ruined the idea of farming for a specific weapon with the onset of focusing weapons at the end of a raid. Turning raid weapon farming into farming spoils and then dunking stacks in order to hopefully get the roll also doesn't seem like an engaging system. I think if there was an additional step to crafting raid weapons, (perhaps do this or that on master, or do all the challenges) it might be more interesting. I do feel the adept weapons having multi perks when you've finished crafting is an excellent way to better farm for personal multipurpose godrolls.
I think having a more cohesive ability to strip perks and "build" your godroll would be cooler, yeah. Crafting does feel like an intermediate step towards a more comprehensive system where it might have been more of a journey and better as a pity timer source. I'm more fine with it for seasonal weapons, especially since those tend to be guns you're less likely to actively use unless you spot some that interest you. (And especially because those get taken away at the end of the year.)
@@harbind2 yeah, I think crafting is a necessity for weapons that get sunset by the end of the year. One set of weapons that I've always thought should be craftable are the event weapons, like compass rose, horror story and such, since they're only up for like 3 weeks in 1 year.
Implement a vendor who can change out perks with a currency but make it so it can only be done once or twice on each item? Not sure why this hasn't been implemented already. Make that 3/4 of 5 a 5/5. Baffles me.
When you factor in that they got caught weighting perks (cheating). Which I personally Believe still exists. They had no reason to remove crafting. Crafting was removed because no lifer content creators and streamers complained that the game is too easy. It is actually ridiculous
the thing that i've relied on sooo much from crafting is the future-proofing, allowing me to avoid the fomo and have a big repertoire of possible combinations and perks (perks that might get buffed or nerfed in the future, who can say?) to cater to whatever build i might think up in the future. along with just reducing the raw grind for the weapon you want at the time, crafting allows you to effectively prepare for the game to change in the future, to cater to new builds with old guns, and that's what i use it for all the time, even with just the seasonal weapons. the only exuviae rolls i can really keep are the ones that seem best at the time, maybe holding onto a few others if they seem like a compelling combo, but when i was putting together a voidlock grenade build i realized the season of the wish hand cannon is the only one in the game with demo and golden tricorn, perfect for the build, and in a few seconds it's in my hands and i can try it out, and i think that's so valuable for what i love about destiny nowadays, the diverse builds and intertwined mechanics
I had a moment like this where I instead ran into the frustrating fomo. While testing potential Ballidorse builds, I wanted to try Death's Razor. I had 4/5 of the schematics needed for it, but could no longer get any. You can't get it unless it comes from Banshee, it's not at Xur yet. So I was forced to discard the idea of running Infinite Guard+Energy Transfer. Doubtful it might have been good, but it would have been fun to try.
Your alternative of being able to just snap your fingers and have what you didn't expect would be amazing but thought of in the moment and have it all click together? That's the good shit.
@harbind2 oh my god! that exact sword combo is the engine for like, two of my favorite warlock builds nowadays! (vesper of radius on solar with hellion, and boots of the assembler w/ lumina on arclock, respectively) that's such a shame you didnt manage to get it, hopefully it comes back around soon. i think there's a lot of potential for it, even worth giving up the usual heavy ammo options
I have huge appreciation for this vid. Not many people use a voice to discuss the lottery like chances of the ‘5 out of 5’ god roll. I just find it unbelievable that there is even a crafting debate. Bungie has a team of devs that theory craft and create weapons and for the most part these fantasies can never be experienced because of rng. Crafting is the only system that allows it to happen. The game is long overdue for a system that allows you to target farm with realistic probability and not with crafting. If they can do that alot of satisfaction will follow for those who have hung around
Really well put. I think we’re at a crossroads now where a choice must be made between the forceful engagement farms of fomo and RNG versus some other path of making a stable, approachable, rewarding game that rewards time and skill.
We’ll see what the future holds. A shame to hear you so morose (while understandable) because making and mastering your builds injected fun into the first half of this season for me, and I’d hoped when I saw this video (but not its title) that maybe I’d have a reason to log in again. But, for similar reasons to those you’ve said, I don’t think I will.
I think ultimately the pokemon comparison works very well, since we’ve opened that door with “shinies”.
Some pokemon are numerically better than others of the same type or variety, but that doesn’t stop lots of number-poor pokemon having interesting niches that only they can get, or simply people preferring the look and feel of a slightly outmatched pokemon and putting up with the deficit for their own fun.
The gun chase for the game’s history has been a revolving wheel of better and better rewards making those prior obsolete. I hope perhaps someday we get to a point where the old stuff can stay for people to maybe try and get because they like how it looks, or feels, etc.
For instance if I could get an Annual Skate easily, I probably would - purely because it has my favourite flavour text in the game. But also it is so numerically inferior, in the modern mindset it feels hard to justify - and in trying to get myself out of that mindset… I’ve just got myself out of the game entirely.
I will say I do recommend the Slayer's Fang build. It feels good especially with the artifact to have a weapon with high kill power + repulsor brace + felwinter's weaken. It pairs well and feels cool to pair with Strand's suspend.
You make great points and I do despise a lot of the weapons being taken away or just made overall harder to grind for, for some odd reason.
Even if Annual Skate is worse than new Luna's Howl for wiping adds, wouldn't it be better to have easier access to both to allow us to play with them? Wouldn't it be better for the game if we could see a gun/try a gun and even if it's not necessarily the best, to chase a better roll of it?
I like a lot of weird dumb guns for unique perks or being curiosities. It is a little fun to speculate on a gun being good and keep an odd roll of it, but I think I'd vastly prefer to be able to have the lightbulb moment and go and grab a roll from the Enclave.
I am all for more crafting. And I am fine with it being more expensive with dungeon loot for example compared to seasonal loot.
Alternatively, we should be able to merge weapon rolls or something like it. Combining our 3/5, 2/5 drops to upgrade to a 4/5 for example
Totally agree that crafting is necessary
Such a good video, Harbin. Really wanted to hear your thoughts on this mess.
I've found that there's two kinds of Destiny players: the ones who see the chase as the game, and when they don't have anything left to chase, their interest wanes. And then there are the players for whom getting the pieces of a build together means that the game has finally started.
I'm definitely in the latter camp. I don't want the carrot on a stick, I want to have fun playing with the toys in the sandbox. RNG is a dark pattern, so I'm always for crafting or some other way to earn RNG mitigation. I want to see the "level up" notification on a gun I really like.
I honestly like both. I love a chase but then when I get the thing I want to use it!!!
It baffles me that they genuinely thought that removing crafting is a good ideia.
I also never understood the hype behind the feeling of "finally getting that godroll that you have been grinding for ages".
Top Streamers pushed for it e.g. datto , aztercross … after they dropped the game 😂😂😂😂
Exactly this! Datto is responsible for so much of what’s wrong with this game. Bungie tried to hire him they value his dopey opinion so much
Well put on the problems with drops in Destiny team taking away crafting and having such limited ways of getting drops we want.
At this point, no crafting should only be acceptable if the random drops we're getting have multiple rows. One row of rolls is dreadful in this day and age
After getting weapon crafting, I could not be bothered with RNG. I cant have fun when my time is being disrespected with non-fun pulls of the slot machine. Gambling and losing feels shit...is that what our fun gaming time at home is meant for?
Great video Harbin. Glad to see you back
I have open 110 martyrs retribution and still no heal clip/ incandescent roll. Not a one. And I only need the two perk I don’t even care about the other Columns. 110 drops!!!
I resonate with you. I've been trying to get Icebreaker for the past few months. I've done what I can to increase the drop rate and it has not dropped. I've done the Master Version and collected the notes. Not good enough for the solo run, so that's where I stopped. Still haven't gotten it. Still haven't gotten that Scavenger's Fate when Demo Destab Rounds so I can complete that NBP build I saw one day. My time feels like it's not being rewarded when it comes to RNG. That's why I prefer crafting. But even RNG can be rewarding for me as well. But when it's in a time crunch, or when it gives you "one week per character", it just feels like a chore. And I don't know about you, I don't feel like doing the same thing over and over again and not getting the thing that I desire. I can forgive a few drops where I don't get what I want, but when it gets to the point where I'm months or years to get the weapon I want (it has taken me up until Pantheon to get Touch of Malice. Let that sink in. May have been my fault since I didn't do the triumphs to increase the drop chance, but my point still stands.) that's where it gets frustrating. That makes me resent the game more. "Go play something else" you may say. But I already tried that. It still doesn't change the fact that you are still tied to this "one week per character" and low drop chance of what stuff that you want schtick. That's why I prefer crafting more than RNG because if I don't get the drop that I want, at least I can get those 5 red border weapons and get it that way. It is an alternative method if one method doesn't work out. I don't know why Bungie thought crafting was a bad idea, and then cane along with this Tonic system which, apparently, didn't even drop the weapon you wanted after you popped one. Both can live together in harmony, but only if Bungie finds that middle ground between the two. Really hope they do, cause I'm sick of doing the same thing over and over again when I just want to move on.
I had this exact experience trying to get conditonal finality. It actually was nerfed out of the meta before I was able to get it so I gave up
But Harbin, isn't this loot SPECIAL. I love that argument sooo much 😐
If it's special we should be able to craft it 😭😭😭
i do agree there should be more sources for crafting. however I propose you with an issue I have with crafting, and it's specifically for raids. I've had this feeling that ever since crafting was added to raids in vow, the incentive to play them fades away, however the difference between raids and seasonal/dungeon weapons, is that you don't play raids nearly as much as seasons. And while the loot aspect is definitely better with crafting, how do you make raids replayable outside of getting a seal and getting your red borders? I love deep stone crypt as a raid but i find myself not wanting to play it anymore simply because I have no incentive to run it; i've gotten the seal, gotten my flawless and crafted every weapon. so how do you give raids more replayability without taking away crafting? what reason do you have to play if you have your builds but nowhere to use it? i think most people can agree that raids are the best content destiny has but without something bringing you to these raids there really isn't a point to them, and unlike seasonal weapons, they will never get sunset, but also most likely never get refreshed post crafting. I would really like to know your insight on this. (also i do think im fine with older raids like last wish and garden being craftable, since they're older raids and it can allow them to get new value)
i also think the problem that i have with crafting is not in the guns but that the system is very boring to engage with, its just rng with pity, get 5 red borders a week and dump cores onto it, that's it.
Imagine instead of 5 red borders you just had to get 1, and it could use the same pity multiplier they use for raid weapons, but after you get that 1 red border, you now have to gather a bunch of rolls of that weapon to get all its perk pool, so if i get trench barrel on the red border shotgun and dismantled it, i can now put that perk into the gun i crafted.
and instead of leveling up the weapon you level up the perk by proccing it or something. It's a way better system and feels more rewarding and respectful of the player's time while also encouraging mastery over the weapon
I think raids do need crafting in their current state in part because we have a very crowded game and raids are always a very small portion of the playerbase. On top of that, Salvation's Edge weapons have 7 perks in the 3&4 column.
If they were more akin to the original Last Wish weapons where they had 4 in 3&4, I think it might be easier to justify. But we've also kind of ruined the idea of farming for a specific weapon with the onset of focusing weapons at the end of a raid. Turning raid weapon farming into farming spoils and then dunking stacks in order to hopefully get the roll also doesn't seem like an engaging system.
I think if there was an additional step to crafting raid weapons, (perhaps do this or that on master, or do all the challenges) it might be more interesting. I do feel the adept weapons having multi perks when you've finished crafting is an excellent way to better farm for personal multipurpose godrolls.
I think having a more cohesive ability to strip perks and "build" your godroll would be cooler, yeah. Crafting does feel like an intermediate step towards a more comprehensive system where it might have been more of a journey and better as a pity timer source.
I'm more fine with it for seasonal weapons, especially since those tend to be guns you're less likely to actively use unless you spot some that interest you. (And especially because those get taken away at the end of the year.)
@@harbind2 yeah, I think crafting is a necessity for weapons that get sunset by the end of the year. One set of weapons that I've always thought should be craftable are the event weapons, like compass rose, horror story and such, since they're only up for like 3 weeks in 1 year.
Implement a vendor who can change out perks with a currency but make it so it can only be done once or twice on each item?
Not sure why this hasn't been implemented already.
Make that 3/4 of 5 a 5/5.
Baffles me.
trench warfare
When you factor in that they got caught weighting perks (cheating). Which I personally Believe still exists. They had no reason to remove crafting. Crafting was removed because no lifer content creators and streamers complained that the game is too easy. It is actually ridiculous
You sound like Pedro Pascal