Female Attraction to Psychopaths? | Did Jordan Peterson Misinterpret "A Billion Wicked Thoughts?"
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- Опубліковано 2 тра 2024
- This video answers the question: Why are some women attracted to psychopaths? I've heard this worded many different ways including: Why are some women attracted to bad boys? I've talked about this before in a collaboration video. I'm going be looking specifically at the psychopathy component and honing in on the subclinical psychopathy component. A lot of the time when we think about subclinical psychopathy, we think about the dark triad: psychopathy, narcissism, and Machiavellianism. I discuss Jordan Peterson’s interpretation of “A Billion Wicked Thoughts.”
Psychopathy:
There are two types of psychopathy: Factor 1 (primary, interpersonal affective) and Factor 2 (lifestyle, antisocial) psychopathy. Factor 1 psychopathy has characteristics like grandiosity, pathological lying, manipulation, a superficial charm, callous, unemotional, low neuroticism and lack of guilt or remorse. Factor 2 psychopathy has a parasitic lifestyle, being prone to boredom, sensation seeking, impulsivity, irresponsibility, a failure to have long term goals, poor behavioral controls, and criminal versatility.
Narcissism:
There are two types of narcissism: With grandiose narcissism we see characteristics like being extroverted, socially bold, self-confident, having a superficial charm, being resistant to criticism, and being callous and unemotional. Vulnerable narcissism is characterized by shame, anger, aggression, hypersensitivity, a tendency to be introverted, defensive, avoidant, anxious, depressed, socially awkward, and shy.
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It’s so annoying that psychopaths and narcissists don’t just stick to dating each other.
In my experience, given a long enough timeline, they do. My mom constantly got with them. My dad is one. This day in age, my mom seems happy being alone doing her own thing. My dad on the other hand, is constantly with people that are at worst psychos and at best typical borderline cases hinging in narcissism. Once people get old they either figure their shit out or get stuck that way. Date enough narcissists, eventually you’ll either spot their tricks, or you’ll have to realize you are actually attracted to those traits. My mom like guys that command attention. Maybe I’m a bit cynical, but in your mid forties, a guy who commands attentions, but literally can’t maintain a relationship, is probably a bad egg. Long story short, people that are true narcissists, eventually really will only have eachother to date. Because they won’t be self aware enough to change anything.
@@reececaldwell722 so those type of attract you too? just asking because i wanted to know that if having those type of fathers affect your attraction to other men
@@Ghost-vg6iq I’m a dude actually. But with women somewhat yes. I can tell cases of instability, and even to a point downright malevolence, and yes there sometimes is something attractive about it to me. But not in any serious way I’d actually chase anymore. I’m in a very happy relationship rn, and I know that there’s a difference between my hardwired attraction and actual love. Attraction and love are somewhat mutually exclusive I now think. One is a feeling of content, and the other excitement. It’s why I’m so cynical about hearing people talk about “only finding certain types” or whatever. Because being able to recognize that, should really spur some kind of self change. It sucks getting abused, but if all you find is abusive people, there’s something wrong with you. Plain and simple. Doesn’t mean it can’t be fixed. But sometimes I think people wind up being much bigger victims to themselves than any abuser they’d ever meet.
A plurality of psychopaths (dark triads) are rich attractive men (the three traits are positively corelated). Women desire all three categories and are on aggregate more agreeable. Women psychopaths' have multiple children and tend to be unattractive (which absolutely repulses male psychopaths') and are also outnumbered. It makes sense for male psychopaths' to date 'normal' women.
@@Multi407D Nature itself is evil. The men who should be passing genes get destroyed by the men who definitely should not.
“I’m not sure if werewolves are into pathological lying” 😂😂😂
Jane Finley-English 😂 that gave me a giggle too.
😂😂😂
Serene Artist - I don’t understand the term werewolf yet.
@@qiuwbr091 Are you asking for definition or etymology?
Something that doesn't exist cannot be into something that is possible. For example: Bigfoot isn't into Jack Links or Purple Mattresses.
Women should stay away from werewolves to avoid a possible hairy situation and avoid vampires for their biting remarks. :)
Wrong blood type could be a problem ;)
😹
@Sara Fox True!
Marsha McMillan...Cogent remark! Feelings behind the image!
Now that one I like, Marsha Mac.
You’ve got good work on UA-cam, thanks for all your hard work.
You are most welcome!
@@DrGrande Here in the west, which personality disorders (if any) do you think either stands out the most/ or are most aggravated by things in todays culture such as things like social media- things like some people being driven towards portraying their "hilight reel" online for others to see or trying to "one-up" everyone else? Do you think this has more of an effect towards bringing out those with narcissism/ narcissistic traits or driving away those with anti-personality disorders/ the socially anxious?
Thanks for your time your videos are great!
Yrs very good work
I think people who have been neglected, abandoned or sexually abused at a young age can be susceptible to superficial charm. I wonder if that's part of the analysis in the book?
I agree to dis 100%
For the people that don’t know depend on how you grow up affects your brain development and what you experience as young children from birth to your first 3 years of life.
@@moneytime1556 I think psychological imprinting occurs during the first 7 years of life.
How do we fix this lmao
@@CC-kg6vs thru medication or therapy. Once the memory in your brain it often stays. And unconsciously repeat it self.
Women (and men) who have already had experiences with that sort of person will learn to avoid those traits in mates. I can think of several crushes I had when I was young who would be repulsive to me now because I now know what to expect from certain behaviors and things that were attractive to me at one point are now very very unattractive.
Some of us, it's hard to learn from our mistakes, though. It's not so often a conscious decision for many who make the same over and over, and thus it's hard to learn from something that we don't know why we do.
@@Griselda_Puppy If you were abused getting help might give you understanding to why you are attracted to these guys.
Women are predominantly sensation seeking, not matter what
Women's fantasies aren't necessarily what we want IRL. Those 2 things are often very different.
I agree. I stan Alcide and Eric Northman, but would shoot them with silver bullets if they came to my REAL front porch. And have zero guilt. Hahaha
Tracy Thompson exactly
True, most of the stuff I like to think about I would hate IRL
I'd put it like this: what you want (biologically, culturally, ...) is not necessarily what you need. For instance: biology does not care if you are happy; it only cares that you survive (as a species). We tend to think we are no longer biologically driven... which makes us blind to when we are. Aiming for the popular guy/girl is such a time.
@Shadow Monarch not that it's NEVER about what we want. But people don't ONLY fantasize about wants.
Hope you cover male attraction to female sociopaths, like all the money and proposals Jodi Arias got, and sales of her cheap artwork.
magdalyn i think casey anthony is hot,..i might even let her babysit for me, but i would watch her very close, and dont let her babysit children under 7
I dont think men want to marry crazy women, but they will definitely sleep with them.
Lesbians exist lol
There's no comparison at all
@@haveabanana2930 men sleep with any women
Of course I can only speak for myself, but the idea of somebody not caring wether or not I live or die is definitely a turn-off.
I am glad you said “some women are attracted to psychopaths” and not “women are attracted to psychopaths.” 🙂
Lack of sensitivity and depth are a deal breaker for sure!
Thank you for another great video Dr. Grande:)
Vampire, werewolf and pirate?!? Urgh😣 - No comments there...
You'll love a psychopath when you meet one;)
Well there is at least a pretty big amount of women that is. Considering how many letters from these women serial killers get in jail.... Or how women flocked to Fifty Shades of Grey.
Psychopaths (especially factor 1) are usually very charming and charismatic they create this vipe of mystery , excitement and fun and this what socially attracts normal people in general not only women and they are unemotional so they analyze things logically which makes them good at reading people and understanding their emotional needs so they can munipulate their feelings so actually psychopaths are attractive to every one but with women it's not just an attraction it's also sexual attraction so if you meet one you will be so attached to him after a while but when you know what is inside most people gets scared
Actually...its women. We are attracted to some of the traits and how they interact. If you look into the pua attraction principles, you'll see. There are five things..leader of men, protector of women and children, and a few others. Mystery was highly intelligent and literally created a science of pickup, even going into evolutionary biology. The saying "confidence is sexy" is a thing. But yeah..there was this guy I liked. Great looking, educated, etc but we went for a walk one day with my dog. When some dog came charging up, he moved back and I moved toward the danger to protect my dog. It took me a while to figure out why my attraction to him dropped so quickly. Oh yeah and we were wandering around campus one day, and finally I said, "where are we going?" He said, i was following you. So, he was neither the leader of men or a protector of women and children which are two things, and when I realized this,I was like, "oh thwts why." I thought there was something wrong with me because thus guy seemed like a great catch "on paper." And I could have overlooked the wandering thing, but I could not get over the fact that he basically ran away when me and my "child" were in danger and there is an evolutionary reason for that.
@@indoororchidsandtropicals358 Except that PUA techniques don't. If a woman isn't physically attracted to you, you're not going to be able to make her attracted to you by manifested psychopathic behaviors. The psychopaths who attract women like Ted Bundy are always handsome.
I was diagnosed with ASPD a few years ago.
I thank you Dr.Grande for your videos. They are unbiased and objective, which is an extremely rare thing to find. I often stumble upon videos that are antagonizing - where the narrators or psychologists have clearly been scarred in the past and speak in antagonizing manner. "Evil sociopaths beware 50 ways to stay away".
Either way, I appreciate that you make videos about ASPD in such an educated, professional, well informed manner.
I have shared these videos multiple times with people I know with the same disorder. Many others to whom I have shared your videos to have also agreed on this.
I hope you keep making these videos.
Thank you so much :)
But, unfortunately, many people with APD are psychopaths or sociopaths, & do very bad things. :-( It's tragic, but sadly true.
Yeah I always found that clinical literature on the suite of ASPDs is tainted by people being disgusted or angry at the individuals. It's like they think being objective about it will absolve the criminal ones of their crimes or something.
Honestly after meeting a few in Juvy, they never scared me, they're actually kinda boring because you can't joke with them and get genuine laughs. They might pretend to fit in, but it's usually unconvincing. They're just... deadpan emotionally. It's depressing.
Unless they have a prideful reason to be good, they have no natural sense of cooperative relationships and they are usually parasitic to society like this. I read a book about ASPDs with hero complexes and I honestly think it isn't that bad. I mean, as long as the pride doesn't go too far, sure.
It's a good thing decent systems force them to be useful to others out of self interest. So they become doctors and stuff.
Yeah I always found that clinical literature on the suite of ASPDs is tainted by people being disgusted or angry at the individuals. It's like they think being objective about it will absolve the criminal ones of their crimes or something.
Honestly after meeting a few in Juvy, they never scared me, they're actually kinda boring because you can't joke with them and get genuine laughs. They might pretend to fit in, but it's usually unconvincing. They're just... deadpan emotionally. It's depressing.
Unless they have a prideful reason to be good, they have no natural sense of cooperative relationships and they are usually parasitic to society like this. I read a book about ASPDs with hero complexes and I honestly think it isn't that bad. I mean, as long as the pride doesn't go too far, sure.
It's a good thing decent systems force them to be useful to others out of self interest. So they become doctors and stuff.
@@dariankaltenbach8062 About the laughing thing. I will only speak from personal experience here, most of the jokes people crack at me are just not my sense of humor. I like more dry and offensive humor, that's when I laugh the most. If it's just some vanilla joke during chit-chat, of course I will feel compelled to laugh in order to make this other person like me more. Otherwise, people feel rejected if you don't like their jokes, it's socialization 101.
If you are talking about someone being "deadpan emotionally" you must be referring to psychopaths. Psychopaths and aspd are quite different. The line is very blurry, extremely so, due to the DSM-5 not providing a separation between the two. In medical studies, they refer to psychopaths as psychopaths, and to sociopaths as aspd. Some other studies, refer to psychopaths as "high factor 1 psychopaths" and sociopaths as "high factor 2 psychopaths".
I'm just aspd/factor 2. I wouldn't know about being completely deadpan and void, although from personal experience (and what I have seen in others) it's quite close to that in Some areas. The emotionality that Does exist for me, is kind of a deformed, crippled version of what emotionality/empathy should be. If it's there, it doesn't function for as long or as intense. And if empathy is there, it applies to maybe two or three people in my life, and even then, I know I would steal, or lie, or get verbally abusive. Relationship wise, even if I care about them, I can easily end up controlling their lives to the point of threatening them if they want to leave without my permission.
As I said, emotions are there, just a deformed and crippled version of it.
It's not void, as psychopaths (well, there are studies proving that even psychopaths feel basic survival-based feelings like disgust, fear, anger, and pleasure. Basically the basic feelings of any animal, alike instincts, that helps said animal's instinct work for their survival)
I think part of the appeal of werewolves is that it’s a hell of a lot easier to get your dog to listen to you than it is to get a boyfriend to pay attention
😂
LOL
With 1 nuance. Dogs are not humans. And they dont distinguish uncessary calls from reasonable ones
😂😂😂😂
"Werewolves are strong, kind of powerful creatures, that don't really have to sneak around to get the job done." Unlike those lying and manipulating vampires and pirates. #TeamWereWolf
Those damn vampires and pirates 😂😂
Werewolves are very animalistically possessive, I think that's the thing with werewolves
Dr. Grande: Have you ever considered doing a clinical profile of famous (fictional) personalities - e.g., Tony Soprano, Walter White, etc. I think a lot of viewers would enjoy seeing that type of thing. Thanks and congrats on your much-deserved success!
That would be an awesome series
yeahhhhh
Alex DeLarge from the "Clockwork Orange" film &/or book would be really great, too. :-)
He did the Grinch this year and I’m sure he is made up.
Maybe,he could PRETEND to do such a presentation! Hehe
"It's not clear what type of doctor", so immature, but this cracked me up. I just don't think that as far as the book is concerned, that it matters. A doctor is seen to have lots of money, power, influence and intelligence. Any and all doctors lol 😂😂😂😂😂
punkybrewstar83 I was giggling also as I was wondering if ‘Dr’ Todd had some invested interest in ascertaining the difference ;) Just teasing you Dr Todd I enjoy your videos!
An abortion doctor, perhaps?
Just for argument, I can think of several doctors of romantic interest that are not medical such as Doctor Indiana Jones, for instance who held his Ph.D in archeology
How about a Pediatrist? Do they count? 🤔
The average PhD doesn't make much money these days, at least not where I live. Most of them are stuck doing post-doc degrees, waiting forever for that elusive professorship to arrive. Too many PhDs admitted to grad school for not enough jobs. Same story with so many professions, like teachers and lawyers.
The Werewolf has a variant of that "Jeckyll & Hyde" thing...
Thank you very much for this comment.
Ooh yes! Good point as it might target the type of woman who feels sympathy for a creature who's full of suffering.
In literature, there’s something known as a “manic pixie dream girl” who is the female version of a psychopathic male character. Such an example would include Clementine in “Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind”.
A “manic pixie dream girl” character will be risk/adventure seeking, spontaneous, not able to be tied down into a relationship and always just out of reach (both platonic and romantic), often high in trait neuroticism, and her male counterpart in the movie almost always tries to “tame” her or get her into a solid relationship.
It’s interesting how certain personalities of both men and women seem to like novels or movies centered around these characters, because in reality the man or woman courting a “wild” man or woman as a partner almost never happens when examining healthy and long lasting relationships.
I've heard that term a lot but usually, and imho more accurately, in-relation to females with BPD. Due to the manic-esque tendencies, high neuroticism, love/hate or all/nothing relationships, spontaneous behavior and impulsivity, etc...
It is a really interesting phenomenon however.
Maybe that sort of fiction is a way for us to get an outlet for erotic ideas and feelings since (I think) those type of relationships are seen as taboo or dangerous. What I mean is: I think while some may fantasize about it, they don't actually want that, but the book/movie is a safe way to explore it. But I have been wondering if not the vast abundance of this type of fiction actually conditions us into seeking those relationships....
HYP1142 MaeLsTRom44 I worded it poorly, that’s my fault. I said “the female version of a psychopathic male character” but I didn’t mean the female character themselves were psychopathic just that the male characters on the flip side usually are. I agree with you, it always seems more like BPD especially because the women tend to change colours of hair, occupation, outfits and styles, and even personalities often (although that is a very simplistic way to portray that PD in the films imo). Thank you for pointing that out!
@@Toyon95 personally I doubt that the sexuality of most typical adult humans are malleable enough to be reconditioned to a high-enough degree to actually seek out these sorts of relationships in real life. Maybe someone that already possessed a preexisting attraction to these types of people could be influenced enough to seek it out in some cases, although even to that I'd argue that those individuals with a preexisting attraction would be likely to pursue those relationships regardless of prior exposure to it in fiction.
I could see it influencing adolescents to a slightly higher degree however.
@@lydiah8000 ah, okay that makes more sense :)
Vampire: no reflection, life’s of the blood of others, transforms in ‘daylight’
Werewolf: transforms if conditions are met, inhuman strength / behavior
Pirat: Sensation seeking, ruthless, could be considered suicidal
It’s basically the closest recollection of psychological categorization humans used in the past. I think Jordan realizes this and his description of what woman seek is more from an evolutionary standpoint, taking a way bigger timespan into account, not only modern things.
The whole “good or bad” theme is a modern invention, our society is built on rewarding good behavior, our actions aren’t motivated by morality but by perceived outcome. Woman simply choose the strongest
I choose most good looking, thank you. I don't need brute force if there's no composition in looks
Really enjoyed this video. It answered a lot of my questions of why some women go after prison inmates. Sending love letters, etc.
This really helped. Keep up the good hard work, it is much appreciated.
You're killing it with these videos
You are quite welcome :)
@@DrGrande yes, you took a bloody good stab at it doctor!
I find that society rewards men who act narcissistic, and even sociopathic. Men are allowed and even expected to have less empathy, more disregard for others' feelings, more control over their partners, less emotional sensitivity... healthy, compassionate men are not as socially rewarded. Or welcome, even. Any boy who sees those values demonstrated understandably emulates what he sees. It's very close, I think, to normalizing abusive relationships. Women have internalized a lot of that, the whole abuse means love fallacy.
Whenever fantasies are involved, relying on verbal material may limit the depth of understanding of a phenomenon such as this. I also wonder if ethnicity, race, sexual, and gender identity influence the content of these fantasies. This data represents a cohort, remains debatable and subject to change. But it sure is interesting.
Yes and with those I’d like to see if obesity, depression, anxiety, IQ, regional influences, diet, nutritional status or deficiencies, genetics, attractiveness, bone structure, gut flora and birth order may play a role. I’m sure all of these factors and many, many more will have their equal representation recognized as very strong and important influences.
@@ziggysnarfalott2252 Genetics and gut flora. Yes! Those are probably most important. Also Id like to see toxoplasmosis investigated.and a prevalence of L.rhamnosus in the intestinal biota.
I remember listening to Jordan say this as well and I think that he got A Thousand Wicked Thoughts mixed-up with some other published research that I'd heard him talk about previously, which covered female preferences in erotic-literature specifically.
Agree. Doing so much reading tou are going to mix things up or merge them sometimes. Was this pre or post him getting covid. I didn't see the lecture/talk. He’s usually spot on.
Personally I think this was very ride of Grande to stick Petersen’s picture on the video and point this out, its a very small thing and a bit academically anal of him. He’s dressing it up like it’s a serious correction but I can see it’s a dig which to me seems a bit pointless. It’d hardly a huge error.
It looks misleading too like Petersen might be a psychopath because when Im looking on my phone I don’t get the full video title. I’m not part of the ‘Petersen fan club’ btw incase anyone is thinking that!
Thanks for these videos. Been subbed a couple weeks now & I've been enjoying every upload. Keep it up my man
You are quite welcome :)
Dr Grande is so prolific and I Stan! Keep grinding! ❤️
I LOL at the title of the video...I agree with what you're saying. The craziness comes from the fact that women may think that a quiet introvert, shy sort of guy/man is the odd one, although it's more apt to be the outgoing, sweet, attentive, over sugary ones that could potentially be more of a problem in a relationship. JMHO
Why is a list of the top 10 occupations of romance novel heroes being used to infer anything about what kind of men heterosexual women are attracted to? I haven't read the book, but dang - that's some bad science right there.
Not all people who read romance novels are women (16% are men), the majority are between the ages of 18-44 (53%), with 81% of their readers being white. And all of these folks that Nielsen BookScan surveyed are in the US. Add to that only 42% of Americans read fiction, and that's an awful lot of extrapolation to get to "These are the types of men heterosexual women find attractive", let alone analyze the occupations for psychopathic traits.
All a "Top 10" of Harlequin romance heroes can tell you is "Of the subset of people that read fiction in America, and of that subset, the ones who read romance novels, and of that subset, the ones that read the Harlequin brand of romance novels, *those* mostly youngish, white women purchase books with these top 10 occupations for the male heroes."
That's it.
If there was a cross-cultural, socio-economic, sexuality-inclusive, peer-reviewed study on what people in the US find attractive in this day and age, and how that's changed as social norms have changed, I would definitely be interested in hearing about that. I just can't abide junk science like this.
References: www.nielsen.com/us/en/insights/news/2016/romance-readers-by-the-numbers.html
www.theguardian.com/books/2018/sep/17/us-losing-appetite-for-reading-fiction-research-finds
I mentioned this in another reply, you can't make sweeping generalisations about this based on subsets of romance readers and porn viewers! (then on top of it interpreted by very specific demographics of men)
Thanks for looking up the demographics though I asked for this in my other comment also. There are very particular types of women who are attracted to the things based on those 'studies' and although we can presume Dr Todd was addressing those types of women some of the commenters seem to assume that all women are like this.
Cynically Hopeful I’m in agreement. This topic should be addressed by a stand up comedian, not a man of science. I find it trivial and insulting despite the “some” women disclaimer.
Beautiful comment.
And even if those reading preferences were statistically true across all heterosexual females (or, more broadly, females attracted to males) from any demographics, that still wouldn't mean those archetypes are actually the types of men women are attracted to in real life! There's a big difference between fantasizing about something and wanting it to actually happen to you. Just because you like roller coasters doesn't mean you want to be in a car crash someday.
My personal theory is that the most relevant factor Dr. Grande puts forward is the fantasy of reforming a man through your love. I think a lot of women are actually a little bit frightened of men, especially if they are exposed to a lot of macho posturing and misogyny, so it's fun to imagine that no matter how though and dangerous the guy acts, YOU can change him and be perfectly safe in a relationship that fulfills you emotionally. I don't know if this has been studied in a scientific context, but I have a serious hunch about this.
Ah yes, it’s hard to resist pathological werewolf-pirate-billionaire-surgeons 😂
So true, but you can fall in love with a rich werewolve as easily as a poor one
.... I'm still laughing! 😂🤣💦
Don't forget vampire 🦇
Yarrwoof$$$appendectomy.
He's talking about the women that will pen pall murders doing life in prison and actually bang them when they make parole.
I know I'm almost a year late, but I want to add something: I feel like the attraction to apparent "psychopaths" isn't about the psychopathic traits per say, but instead they are attracted to people who show signs of subclinical psychopathy EXCEPT in cases relating to the love interest. Like, the fantasy is that there is a man who is calm, successful, psychically/socially powerful, "dark" and brooding, or even Machiavellian, but they CHANGE when around the love interest is involved. In some circles, it's called the "gap", when a person usually acts one way, save in specific circumstances (usually around the love interest) where they are another, or even opposite. Like, someone who is calm and collected becoming flustered around the person they like. The vampires and werewolves are an extension of that gap--both are usually considered inherently violent (there's been a shift in werewolves where they aren't really violent, but more like big dumb dogs. Himbos are also adored by women)--and vampires especially usually have an aura of Machiavellian-ism to them, but then when you make them romantic and good, it creates that gap. And this isn't just for straight women; I'm a lesbian, so I'm only attracted to girls, but even I have had fantasies of a partner (female, not male) who is "brooding" and powerful and maybe even a bit manipulative, but they act differently around me. It's the gap and being the cause of that gap, I think, is what makes so women attracted to "psychopaths".
Only so often that gap is imaginary if you date that type of person in reality.
I think it's a tremendous leap to equate 10 romance heroes with attraction to psychopathy. These heroes are tropes for masculinity and financial success and independence. It can equally be said the women value security, both in terms of resources and personal safety. I.e. is he going to be a good provider.
I think what's wrong with these women is that they want to be saved.
This thought is what makes them vulnerable to abuse.
They cannot get out of the drama triangle unless they step up and accept taking responsibility for themselves.
The reason that's holding them back needs addressing.
Often women abused as children find abusive men (and visa versa). It is what they are used to. Therapy can help.
Could you make a video on the differences about psychopathy 1 and 2, antisocial personality disorder and spciopathy? I get really confused because I find information that is inconsistent. Great video as always!
Dear Dr Grande,
I could listen to you for hours & hours, what a magnificent mind! Flawless presentation! Thank you Dr Grande for your awesome channel
Kindest regards
Aaia :)
I look forward to your videos. You are a great educator and a very interesting speaker.
Thank you :)
Thank you for this video, Dr. Grande. I wondered if it would also be helpful to talk about men attracted to women who might be considered "bad" or whatever word might be appropriate. I know you have done a video about this specific subject before and I think that, in my opinion, it might be more inclusive if the subject is widened to both sexes. Thank you again for the time and effort of creating all these videos.
As someone else commented the closest female-equivalent to this is usually termed "manic-pixie-dream-girls" because of their high-neuroticism, impulsivity, etc...
But I'd love to hear more about the psychological literature that is available on the attraction that a lot of males experience or fantasize about these types of girls ^_^
Thank you for this suggestion - I will add it to my production list!
Interesting. Thanks Dr G. Happy Thursday.
Callous, unemotional, fearless dominance, low neuroticism (calm under pressure), hard to get (woman wants to prove her value), superficial charm (until it's discovered to be superficial), manipulation (not a deliberate aim, but susceptible to it), more exciting (P gets bored easily; sensation seeking), the fantasy of taming the man, tough exterior-softer interior
Dr.Grande, i would love to see more topics about OCPD, since there is a big lack of content on youtube. Maybe talk about the subtypes of OCPD. :)
Yeah, me too!
I am waiting on a few articles on OCPD to come in through inter-library loan - when I get them, I hope to be able to make another OCPD video - thank you for the idea!
@@DrGrande thank you. :D
Same thought
What's the difference between OCD & OCPD?
Wow!! This video is so cool. Those were all things that I was actually thinking about in the past but I never really knew how to research them...thank you!!!
You are quite welcome :)
Oh and this video made me think of a question for you :)
Could you cover escapism and its relation to avoidant-behaviour, specifically I am really curious as to your take on the Norwegian psychologist Frode Stenseng's dualistic model of escapism?
Yes cover this topic please!
What is it?
Dr. Grande would you be able to do a video discussing intrusive thoughts and ways to overcome them?
See a medical professional for the proper medication.
@@r.c.miller6161 Replying to year old comments must be such a fun hobby. And with such brilliant insight too! I doubt any of us had thought of that before. 😑
@@inertchaos just ignore RC, that was really unhelpful.
I have ptsd from something that happened a few years ago and struggle with racing and intrusive thoughts about it. One of the tools I've been told to use is called "stop thought". It's line attempting to stop yourself cycling/obsessing by basically thinking "ok I'll come back to this, but right now I need to think of at least one thing that's happening right now for a fact."
Grounding myself like this really helps sometimes. Although it's a hell of a lot easier said than done. Maybe mention stop thought and CBT to your doctor or therapist bc I'm sure they'll explain it better than I am 🌻
*Nicole, my therapist helps me tremendously with my intrusive thoughts. Maybe try to find one you like that works some with CBT, as mine does, I have found that to help so much! They're not completely gone, but when I do have them they're less scary now and they definitely don't last as long. Best wishes dear!*
Suffered from this for most of my life. Found out that the technical term is ruminating. Having arguments in your head. In my case, it was a coping mechanism that I needed in my childhood and early adult life, but certainly was blocking my progress as I got older. Simply understanding where and why that coping skill was holding me back and when I catch myself doing it, I say out loud “that was the past, I choose to live in the now.” It was necessary to stop myself hundreds of times a day when I see started, but now it is rare. Ruminating. Hugs.
I love your videos, interesting stuff as always.
Thank you so much!
Great video, as always!
This is the best description of pyschopathy that have so far heard ... thumbs up professor👍
Beautifully articulated! I loved that you gave us the building blocks of what makes up psychopathy for us as you talked about this topic. I think oversimplifying certain points can cause oversight to the underlying mechanisms of an observed phenomenon. I found it super interesting that you integrated the push & pull when explaining why women may be attracted to subclinical psychopathy traits. I also agree that some women can seek partners that are tough on the outside but soft to their lovers. Great talk. Thank you!
Fascinating topic again. Thanks Dr. Grande.
I believe women like men, who are self-confident and can be a tower of strength to a woman, when needed.
Dave Jones is asking in his comment if you can do a video about the subtypes of OCPD. I also think this is an interesting topic.
Maybe you can talk once about the 5 subtypes of Theodore Millon: conscientious, bureaucratic, puritanical, parsimonius and bedeviled.
Or else a video about the problem of being a people pleaser is also very welcome.
Thank you doc 😃
Yes, I hope to be able to start a video outline on OCPD soon - I am just waiting on a few inter-library loan articles -
@@DrGrande Thank you sir. Would be great!
From my experience, surgeons are definitely psychopaths.
Aack! Remember the one in Get Out??
"From my experience" Can you elaborate please?
I am a surgery student and i am only doing it because i wanna help people..🥺
At my local hospital they have a sign in the car park saying "warning, car thieves operating". The short cuts here in the UK are terrible.
did you come accross many surgeons? If yes how?
Very, very interesting. Thankyou Dr.
It’s Disney Syndrome: Look at Belle from Beauty and the Beast... The stories we hear and watch imprint on us. Thankfully Disney/ most other media outlets have changed its formula.
Would also be curious to hear Dr. Grande on if there’s an element of Stockholm Syndrome involved in that story.
I hated Beauty and the Beast. I was horrified as a little girl that they forced Beauty with that beast.
thank you for your intersting topics so enriching
I'm obsessed with this channel!
🧠❤
I find Sandra Brown's research on this topic to be exceptionally interesting, but rarely see it referenced. I'd love to also hear your thoughts on this.
Dark and dangerous (unfortunately for many women). The bad boys. The desirability of the unavailable, unattainable or forbident. I loved watching this video. I think I need to watch it a few times. I thoroughly enjoyed it.
7:50 "but Im not really sure if warewolves are into pathological lying"
k
I've actually read all of these romance books of supernatural romance haha. It's because they have a dangerous edge to them so they can be effectively protective but also have a caring and lovingness to the girl. And it's very obvious to others hence more protection
Cracks me up, I love your dry delivery! 🤣🤣
Oh wow, this is definitely the video of yours that has made me laugh the most. You are so kind to Peterson, calling that a minor error! “Pirate” I genuinely L’dOL … bless you Dr Grande. As love how you started with “Doctor”. I see you. Lol
Your videos are very intersting, thank you!
Amusing presentation!
It's important to shed light on what those women lack to make them victims of psychopaths and narcissists.
Low self esteem, vulnerability, low sense of security, people pleasing , trusting ...
If we empower women in these fields, they would become more immune.
But I guess, no matter how high status and capable a woman becomes, she'd always prefer someone dependable and strong.
The low emotional reaction to pressure is actually viewed as a sign of strength.
Not numbness
That's why it's alurring at first.
I have this idea, that the more a woman becomes independent, the more masculine, she'd become.
Which is off putting.
It's hard to balance femininity and independence!
Oh, I forgot
The doctor's power is actually knowledge!😉
I had hoped and recommeded a while ago Many of us interested in whether you would analyze Jordan Peterson himself. He’s very fascinating. And I think you are an excellent analytical-type psychotherapist with wicked wit. We would love love love that analysis.
This is interesting from a narrative fiction perspective. Alas, the pirate is more popular than his arch rival, the ninja. And vampires are more popular than wizards, which is disappointing to me personally and does not bode well for humanity.
You're a vampire Harry
magic using is sexy
I think most people have a good side and a bad side. People do good in their real lives coz need acceptance from society. so they hide their bad sides.
But the bad side still remains. just hidden. When the bad side is acceptable (fictions), people actually like the bad side.
I like vampires! But I am a good person irl
I do notice that the collaboration video was made with a female and I haven't watched it yet. With that caveat I think that there is, similar to analyzing a different culture or period in history through the lens of our own, an inherent danger in a male analyzing female attraction. The baseline is, as in so much medicine, skewed toward using the male body and brain as a control group / point of reference. Attraction is a combination of biological, sociological, cultural, aesthetic, etc. factors and the roles of female bodies, cultural experience, etc. cannot be dismissed or inferred by a man.
What do you think of the Enneagram? Especially Helen Palmer's early book on it.
Big fan of the channel. It's not quite as glamorous, but would you consider creating a video about NLD/NVLD?
You are 100% true about what women want in a man. Which is why when met with reality they feel like men are abusers and overall just female oppressors. Which of course this isn’t true. But it has led to the new trend of hating on men for just no real reason at all.
As I have struggled in my marriage to understand how my husband loves me when it doesn’t feel like he does, I have realized that I expect him to be the way that I want him to be vs just the reality. And even when I knew not to have those expectations, it gets difficult not to. Unconsciously I did, and maybe that’s a bit narcissistic of me but that’s what happens to a lot of other people and because they don’t analyze it they end up divorcing.
Interesting video Dr Grande! Thank you 😀
Well I must admit any desire I may have had, to tame a bad boy utterly dissolved by my mid 20's! That's when I discovered earning the trusted zone of quieter deeper thinkers is where 'its' at! As they truly possess the utmost deliciousness!!! Not to mention their kinkier & way more fun!
You’re definitely a better Doctor than Peterson. You have one main focus, but you are very precise, you don’t misstate medical studies like he does frequently, and you don’t just say what your viewers want to hear. Upon finding new information you change your positions, and you handle every topic you discuss with a lot a care and very choice words.
I appreciate that you avoid being hyperbolic and sensational.
I like the way you neatly present the information rather than running in circles.
Peterson is delusional
Amazing 👏
"It's not clear what type of doctor: M.D. or Ph.D."
Ooh, I think I can answer that one.
God love him. We love him though.
LOL
I just cracked up when you listed off pirate. 😂😂
great analysis as always! hard to get applies on both ganders but psychopaths are masters at the game because they know a lot about psychology that's what makes them interesting to women because they know how to make them interested.. they know exactly when to show care and when to avoid
A common thread with these types of men, as is also found in gurus and cult leaders, is *extreme* *confidence* and, hence, an appearance of not being needy. Something similar was spelled out in Schopenhauer's excellent essay _The_ _Metaphysics_ _Of_ _Love_ .
Great video and interesting topic. As an avid reader of romance novels in my teens- (not Harlequin novels- they are in a different category of
romance novels than the plethora of them that exist and why your supposition is not complete), I can with complete competency tell you that the main male characters were indeed Pirates, Sea Captains, Plantation Owners, Confederate or Union Officers and in more recent years Vampires and Werewolves. Harlequin was but one avenue of romance novels. Janelle Taylor and a host of other authors didnt write for Harlequin. Harlequin were tame and boring stories in my opinion. So Peterson didnt make an error.
Dr Grande, what is the difference between covert narcism and someone who scores very low on Agreeableness in the five factor personality model?
Thanks Dr. Grande. A very interesting topic no doubt, especially given the precisions you are adding to Dr.Jordan Peterson's lecture. My question is:
Has there been any research on psychpath women attracting men with psychopathic traits. Vulnerable narcissists are definitely attracted to grandiose narcissists to the extent they might develop longterm dependent attachment. One of the unhealthiest and most dangerous, where all levels of abuse and manipulation are reciprocated and normalised.
From my perspective as a woman, no, just no. Be good, surround yourself with wisdom and kindness. Have a great life 💛.
Also, avoid fantasy bc life is short.
I am deff attracted to bad boys / the loner or out cast i always have been idk why but deff not attracted to psychos
You probably wont know there psycho until your already dating him.
In psychology "bad boys" , how you call them, are actually labeled psychopaths. This is just the sientific term for them. Psychopaths in this sense are not all weird people, they often appear even more normal than normal. Adhere to your own truth and be proud of who you are.
Yes good psychos can fake everything successfully
It's because the psycho pretends to be a complex individual that has standards and requires effort to flirt with, this makes them more attractive but they can't hold the mask for too long. They corrupt the traits that makes a woman choose a fatherly figure, high effort = high value. They pose as this figure until the victim is too traumatised to leave. Now I'll watch the video and see if it resonates with the scientifically informed perspective. :D
Post vid: Aaaaww yeah, nailed it!
In my opinion, it's sort of a quid pro quo. Probably coming as a consequence of having had a primary caregiver who is just narcissistic or also psychopathic. The caregiver would inadvertently or knowingly teach the child to tiptoe around him and in return get the caregiver's affection, love and protection. It's really essential for parents not to scream or yell at their children or beat them senselessly if they want to avoid this. Psychopathic parents may knowingly intimidate their children into submission.
This creates a pattern of behavior and expectations from future partners.
So, all those mentioned characters are "entrepreneurial", they constantly plot and work on improving their position in life, society. They are driven by a thirst for power and financial success, therefore they execute (anything, or anyONE for that matter, if they can ensure they will go unpunished for it) in order to accomplish goals.
They are perceived as the caregiver, they are expected to be the ultimate protectors, because they go out to win (= successfully attack), rather than just wait to win (= successfully defend).
They are thought of having the capability to provide a safe and secure environment, long-term financial and other stability and an affluent lifestyle.
Their hostility, or lack of agreeability if you will, is equated with strength and virility which in turn is equated with a perfect mate for procreation, able to produce strong, capable offspring.
Also, on a sexual side of things, they are perceived as having the potential for passionate lovemaking and a play of domination and submission, where the psychopath will be worshipped and their partner will be the worshiper and get rewarded by being "in the mercy" (and thereby on the list of protected individuals) of the psychopath.
In English the metaphor is that of a "prince charming", which superficially touches on the good-looking and well-spoken man. In my native language, the metaphor is that of a "prince on a white horse", which is more reflective of a knightly figure who is supposed to satisfy a deeper need for protection and feeling of safety.
What you said Dr. Grande - it's the expectation that he's not going to be nice to others, but will have a soft spot for the love interest, while this codependent love interest, having learned to tiptoe around the male figure in the early childhood believes they will be able to control the psychopath for their own personal gain, which is protection and a higher social and financial status that they are too weak to fight for themselves.
I think the difference between what some women want in fantasy vs what they really want in reality is important to point out. Women may be better able to differentiate between fantasy and reality than men are, I’d like Dr. Grande’s take on that, but I just feel like women are more likely to realize that what they fantasize about aren’t necessarily what they may want in real life whereas men might have a fantasy and be more likely to want to actually act out that fantasy. Just that difference alone would make it hard for a man to legitimately think he could speak on the subject of what women want. Jordan Peterson seems to think that movies like Twilight, Fifty Shades of Gray and Pirates of the Caribbean somehow reflect women’s ideal lover archetype when in reality most of us find that notion ridiculous. Also, women may be victims of psychopathic partners in relationships but it’s important to point out that women aren’t actively seeking out the psychopathic partner, the psychopathic partner actually seeks out a woman that has a high sense of empathy and other traits that the psychopathic partner innately knows how to manipulate to their own benefit. Men also are victims of psychopathic/narcissistic partners yet there doesn’t seem to be the same trope directed at men by our society. All in all what I’m trying to say is it seems like *some* men just want to believe that women love psychopathic partners and then proceed to find the evidence that this is true everywhere. Us women do not want to end up victims of psychopaths and when it does happen it is because the psychopathic person in our life didn’t present as a full on psychopath from the very beginning and we thought, ok I can fix him! No, they present themselves as close to the perfect mate as one can imagine and over time cracks in the facade begin to show. These red flags might be ignored not because we have a savior complex or a victim complex but because by the time they start showing we’re invested in the person and the relationship. And yes, most of us have been conditioned to be caring, forgiving, empathetic, etc even to the point where it’s not beneficial to ourselves. We try to save the relationship and the man because most of us have been conditioned to put others before ourselves, be loving, giving, forgiving and kind, not because we always secretly harbored the fantasy of a psychopathic partner.
Good vid!!
What do you think of Candice Delong ?
Oh I love Candace Delong. Also Dr Michael Stone!
Ive seen her cookie cutter mode process. She knows some great cookie moulds but just applies them randomly and ignores details if they dont suit her application. Im not impressed with her made for tv dramatic style either. Ive seen her be way off base far too many times.
I think women, of various kinds, are attracted to various kinds of strong-willed men.
But we should let the ladies answer this question--they know better than we do; let them enlighten us.
Hi Dr. Grande, I am a psychology student and find your videos informative and fascinating. I was wondering if you would covet gay related issues. Such as the level of sociopathy in gay male relationships? There is a lot of narcissism in gay men and I was wondering if you would cover things of this nature.
"Doctor"? I think they were referring to medical doctors not Doctors of say, Philosophy or Theology. In fact, I'm sure of it!
They (the women) are just not evolved to the next state of being. Personally I fantasize about Chomsky.
"This is a 'maybe' in terms of subclinical psychopathy. Depends if its an MD or PhD" hahaha, subtle jab
What? Werewolves aren't real? 😄💙 You've dashed my hopes and dreams against the rocks.
I think, after hearing some of the letters read that were written to Chris Watts, that the word "connection" was used a lot. It made me think that a lot of times it's about the Bonnie and Clyde fantasy.
Thank you Dr. Grande 🌹👍
Warehouses are real though.
Does Harlequin books still exists? I remember my mother used to read them. I went through them when I was about 10-11 years old, then I found them very silly and old fashioned. Yes, as I remember there was always this a bit dangerous man. Arrogant and sometimes rude, but still "noble" in one way or another. Then there was this innocent girl, young naive and unexperienced. There were some twists and turns until in the end " You silly little thing, don't you understand I love you, he touched her bowed down face by her cheek and tilted it up, her eyes still shining from tears, surprisingly but hopeful met his dark, now sparkling eyes, but I thought ... she started, hyssssshhhhh he said and put a finger over her lips and she moved as if it was electricity going through her body. But that was nothing compared to what she felt there after, when he pulled her closer and the joined in a long intensive kiss. How she had waited, and what was happened thereafter was far beyond any expectations, or phantasies she had ever imagined. THE END" So we never see the manipulation haslightning and separation followed by stalking that happens thereafter🙂. I read somewere, don't remember when or were now, that young woman, like teenagers and young adolescence tend to be drawn more to "dangerous man" and when they mature a bit for more stable and safe men. As a man to start a family with. However, some young women do start a family with those "dangerous men" and then tend to try to change him. Just remembered it. It was a scientific study, but some years since I read it.
“Werewolves are a bit more straightforward - they are strong, powerful creatures & won’t be sneaking around and won’t be a pathological liar or manipulater, lol! That is true, but there is that saying: “A wolf in sheep’s clothing” - so maybe wolves do sneak around a bit? But you were talking about werewolves, so is there a difference?
Maybe they are sneakier than I thought, lol -
Dr. Todd Grande - haha! I loved this video because this subject is very interesting to me! I used to always be attracted to the bad boys, one of them looked like a pirate too, 😂! Another one was SO angry - we went out bowling one night and he threw the bowling ball so hard every time it practically bounced down the lane!
Oh, I could tell you other stories too, I’m gladI have grown out of that phase of my life now. :-)
I see werewolves as someone who appears normal until the full moon comes out ( animal instincts, sexual desires or violence. Usually only slightly agressive to the female but violent and vicious towards the enemy, usually a rival or bad guy ). The werewolf appealed to me because he seemed pretty easy going until the full moon then he was wild and powerful. It could be any guy with his wild nature provoked or inspired. Half animal half human. Seems pretty evident.
Could you please do a video on the relationship between the male narcissist and the spouse, as they grow old together.
Thank you for saying "some".
Saying ‘jordan Peterson missed the mark because of a technicality’ is also really kind and generous way to summarise his career.
Meaning his entire career is a missed mark?
I'd love to add to the allure that male characters and males respectively, with psychopathic traits, have over women - at least from where I sit a man who is fearless, dominant and remains calm under pressure appears strong and I have to stress on the appears part because it doesn't necessarily mean that the person is strong. It's what women perceive as strength and power, because again, in my opinion, there is nothing more unappealing than a weak man. And a dominant man does in 99.99% of the cases come across as also powerful. However, I have also found that in the vast majority of those same cases it's not real strength it's simply arrogance. And I would also like to put the question - if a man exhibits subclinical psychopathic traits, does it mean that he is one for certain?
About werewolves and manipulation:
Don’t forget that werewolves
(in the classic sense, I dunno what trash romance novels have warped them into) can shapeshift between a human and a wolf form. Wether or not this transformation can be controlled by the werewolf depends on the fictional universe, but the werewolf who has no control over his transformation (the whole full moon thing) has become increasingly rare in pop literature, especially on the romance end of the spectrum. The shape shifting werewolf that is most common would pretend to be a normal human in the day and would transform into a werewolf at (some) nights to hunt people.
In that sense werewolves are manipulative and excessive liars, maybe even more so than vampires.
After all there is a reason why there is a popular party game called werewolf in which the group has to find out whom of their members have the role of werewolves through a combination of logic and the reading of body language while the people who have the werewolf role have to use manipulation to try to avert suspicion and make others look more suspicious.
While werewolves have a more direct and gory way of killing than vampires, that doesn’t make them less manipulative.
That’s at least my opinion as a hobby fiction author and regular werewolf player. I don’t know much about romance novels as I’ve never liked them much, and the same goes for porn, as I’m asexual, so the depictions of werewolves in both of those things might differ much from what I said, similar to what twilight did to vampires... (seriously, those novels almost completely ruined vampires for us horror fans, I mean sparkling skin, wtf)
REQUEST -Sir your understanding is on point. Could you please guide us exactly by your overall understanding about a. What mindset types and traits womens are attracted to b. How to he the perfect man, as we all know divorce rate is increasing drastically which all makes us as man unable to fully focus on task/career in hand.
-learned from India 🙏🏾.
"😂🤣😂😅😂", laughed the old wizened one. But then she remembered so long ago when she too caught the unicorn. Or did the unicorn enchant her? Whatever, it turned out that he was a nasty, mean mule who took her for a rough ride. And she spent the rest of her life lamenting, ruminating, wondering. How is it that the unicorn threw me on the hard ground and left hoof prints on my face? I never did get to the rainbow and after a while that unicorn really smelled awful! The unicorn disappeared and all I saw trotting off was a mule. A very stubborn, cantankerous mule.
May you do a video on the link between people who post gym selfies and psychopathy and narcissism and other personality disorders? If there are any links, if it applies to men, women, only men and so on.
Good morning and thank you for this. I have been wondering lately why we see some women (and maybe some men, don't know), writing to serial killers in prison. Even going so far as to "love" them. The groupies that show up for their trial. I am speaking to ones like Manson, Bundy, Dahmer, etc. The most heinous ones. I don't know what would ever make them do this? I guess this may be a super extreme version of what you just said? Or is a different thing altogether? I see what you are saying when women talk about Outlander, True Blood and Twilight and the fandom there is strong.
I was shocked to see that the show "You", (netflix), which is about a (I presume), pyschopath stalking a woman. I won't spoil it for anyone who may want to watch it but it is from the POV of the man who gets obsessed with a random woman and begins to manipulate, lie, and do harm. Some women were saying this was a "dream man". Even the actor spoke up and said, "NO I AM NOT. I am ______ and a _____." Because the POV was him explaining his narrative (also lying and manipulating the truth), it changed some women's perspective on him and that part was scarier than the things he did in the show.
It all sounds rather dangerous to me because none of the stranger male types would attract me in the least. There seems no logical sense in wanting someone who is possibly psychopathic just to change them and to get them to love you and only you. That won’t happen imho. It’s very interesting because I can’t relate to this, as I’m sure other women can’t either, but for those who do find themselves attracted to the types you mention, I do think they need to be aware of the danger they’re exposing themselves to. Not all that glitters is gold (my grandma says that), so girls, be careful what you wish for! Thank you very much Dr Grande. Have a great afternoon ☺️
You're welcome - have a good afternoon :)
There might also be a difference in what you like to experience and what you like to read about.
I've had two fairly bad relationships in my life. One of them was clearly somewhere in the dark triad range. He was amazingly charming at the beginning. Could hold a conversation and flirt no problem, was very attentive to physical cues, spontaneous and fairly attractive, even if not my type. No tangible hard exterior to speak of. I felt understood and supported and all the good things. But boy of boy did he turn fast. We only dated for three months and even then it wasn't a very solid thing, which was mutually agree upon.
Dude lied for no reason at all, stole from people (not sure if he stole from me, don't remember anything going missing, but I've changed the locks afterwards just to be sure), exploded because of Minute disagreements and was very manipulative.
I called him out on his BS just to have it all turned back on me. And being pretty deep in a depression at that time, it hit hard. I'm glad it didn't last long.
I think, what made him attractive at the beginning was really the act of sweet and caring combined with the ability to flirt and hold a conversation. I'm mostly attracted to intelligence, looks being rather secondary and thirsty behaviour being an instant turn off. This guy acted out all the good without any of the bad. He couldn't keep the act up for long though.
Wow, he sounds exactly like my last one!
@@ContentMadame It does seem like a "type", doesn't it? Have a friend who had very similar things happen to her in a friendship with a girl, sans the stealing. She was super sweet at the start and then did a 180 and turned super toxic. I was acquaintanced with her and while I kept my distance, due to some minor stuff that made me cautious, I didn't expect her to be that unhinged. And she had a whole bunch of people twisted around her little finger as well. It was pretty incredible to witness her do her good girl act, in a bad way of course, but still astonishing how many people she was able to puppeteer.