I hate how youre always taken for a fool. You never even get an insight check to know whether or not its Orin, despite the kidnapped companion behaving absolutely nothing like their character.
In my 1st playthrough, she threatened to kill Yenna at camp because she was suspectful etc. and it was pretty on point. You had the possibility to say "Another normal evening at camp, I see." and honestly I felt that 😂
Orin is such an important character for redemption durge and makes their journey so interesting like this person who gave you brain damage, nearly killing you, is the catalyst for you to be able to learn to be your own person and show the middle finger to a god! I imagined my durge _thanking_ a confused dying Orin for everything she did for them cause in a twisted way my durge would not have found their family without Orin
Yes, this exactly! She is a horrible murderer, but she stopped us (the Dark Urge) and gave us a new life. The whole time in my (redemption) DU playthrough, I knew I had to stop her in turn, but I was endlessly grateful. I had done far worse and nevertheless gotten this incredible gift of a new life full of true friendship and love, _completely_ undeserving. In a sense, tragically, Orin would have deserved redemption more than DU, but she didn't even get that and had to die in despair... whereas DU is saved, comforted and given absolution by a god! From Orin's point of view, it's so incredibly unjust.
Which is why you should kill Orin last as the dark urge. It's just the natural conclusion to the chosen arc, and it makes withers speech to you much more impactful
I relate a lot to Orin. Not in the murderous tendencies way, but in the constantly wanting that feeling of acceptance. I was the “gifted” kid growing up. From a young age I was told that I was “more mature” or “smarter than most”. As I grew older however,what I was once praised for was now a bad thing. “You’re too mature for this.” Or “You’re too smart for your own good.” Those types of sentiments. Which led me to doing anything I could to get those positive regards back. I took on too much work,I strived to make everything I did perfect,but it only made things worse. Suddenly I “tried too hard” or was “fishing for compliments.” All the while,my own sibling was being praised for the same things. It’s that being put on a pedestal,and then falling off,but being unable to climb back on that relates me to Orin. She was a prodigy,lifted up so she stopped developing mentally,and then had all that ripped away from her and suddenly finding herself being the mistake. She had no chance of being anything more than what she was and it’s heartbreaking that I relate to her in this way. I don’t think she could’ve been redeemed in game, but she’s a prime example of villains aren’t born,they’re made. Also,this was stupid long and I apologize.
16:30 Orin can actually show up at camp as the companion she's pretending to be. But you have to rest at camp right after Gortash tells you about the imposter in your camp, and a lot of people tend to go to the sewers instead. If Orin is pretending to be Lae'zel in the camp scene, she threatens to kill Yenna, and will go through with it if you don't convince her not to.
@@PocketLeaves Also there's no guarantee that the first post-Gortash long rest will trigger the camp scene, so it might take multiple long rests to get it.
@@artificerprime4154 Yeah, on my second playthrough I fucked around to too long without going into the sewers until she eventually got bored I guess and came to camp, lol. Fun to imagine her just sitting there in her little disguise waiting by the door for you, ocassionally checking the time like "What's taking them so long??"
i actually went to the sewers, talked to nine fingers, and then rested at camp and still got the orin/laezel cutscene. this is my third playthrough as well so i’m not really sure what the benchmarks are to getting it, because i feel like i haven’t done anything different except not get a room at the inn yet. i say that because im assuming the SPOILER………… halsin and scratch scene is another one you can get after G tells you about O in your camp
It took the Dark Urge amnesia, an Illithid tadpole, multiple wisdom saves, and Jergal's own intervention to break free of Bhaal. What does Orin have going for her? Certainly not the wisdom to make any saving throws.
Second comment to say that I've told my friends that this game is about cycles of abuse, and no one illustrates that more than the Chosen. Religious abuse. Familial Abuse. Societal/Communal Abuse. Ketheric sought solace from the gods, but in the end, received nothing in return until Myrkul revived Isobel, and even then, in his moment of greatest need, Myrkul cut his loses and ran. Gortash lived in a poor family with parents that didn't foster his gifts nor temper his worst attributes. When his parents sold him to Raphael to settle their debts, he was treated like absolute dog crap, to the point where he even seems to have adopted Raphael's philosophies to the point here he agrees with Raphael's methods and ideals. He adopted the ways of the Hells because it was the only way he could survive, and upon his return, found a God who not only espoused those beliefs, but rewarded them. I'm willing to bet money that the thing that elevated Gortash to becoming Bane's chosen was betraying Karlach and then utilizing that betrayal to benefit himself. Orin's very conception was an act of abuse perpetrated by those she should have been able to call family, and it never got any easier or better from there. Lied to, dehumanized, made inferior, and then, in her eyes, seemingly mocked by being provided a *helper* of all things from the being she's been working so hard to please, the being she calls Father...
Durge playthrough completely deflates Orin's character. In a Tav playthrough Orin is scary and insane, someone you should be afraid of. In the Durge playthrough she is the annoying younger sister who is jealous of you being the favorite, and steals your toys.
@@PocketLeavesSwords bard with 1 level of War Cleric, Gloves of Archery, Titanstring Bow, and Club of Hillgiant Strength can kill Orin in 1-2 rounds on balanced as long as you get the Surprise round with Shovel.
@@emperortime4380playing durge and you *don’t* duel Orin? It’s such a cool sequence, did it on my first honor run as a roguebarian duergar (so enraged and enlarged slayer form + potion of speed)
@@DestroyerOfSouls213 I’ve played so many times at this point, I just speedrun Orin. One time I just used Surgeon’s Subjugation and paralyzed her to start combat. This video has revitalized my interest in her as a character, but I had been super over her after my third run when she kidnapped Gale. I was literally about to finish his setup with Staff of Cherished necromancy then I run into her in the sewers. I was real life mad lol
The cycle of abuse is one of the most important themes in this game, and Orin is a character that continues the cycle with no chance of leaving it. I have no sympathy for her, but no hate either, just pity.
I agree that the way Sarevok uses the term "girlish" could be interpreted as misogyny, that was my first thought too, but my second thought was it was probably a reference to her maturity. Or, rather, her immaturity. Sarevok is older (and not inbred >.>), formerly a champion of Bhaal and now serving him in death. Sarevok knows more than his grand/daughter what their Dread Progenitor wants from his offspring, and he knows that Orin is prone to the same arrogance that led to the Dark Urge's downfall. After all, look at how she treats her Butler, a gift from Bhaal himself. To him her actions are the height of thinking she knows better, and that, at this point, only her own death will teach her.
I can see that! It's hard for me to gauge just how old Orin is supposed to be, and therefore how mature/immature she is. But she does have a bit of youthfulness to her, and especially when you play as Dark Urge, she feels younger than you, like the younger sibling trying to measure up and surpass you.
@@PocketLeaves the game refers to her as a woman, so I think she's at the very least of-age. Course, they call Gortash a you man and he's easily mid-late-20's to early 30's, so who knows
I always thought she was just a young woman, but Sarevok describes Orin as the youngest prodigy of Bhaal ever, so I've honestly started wondering if Orin ingame is actually only around 19-20. I mean, maybe he was referring to the fact that Orin murdered her mother at age 7 and became Bhaal's chosen (on a Tav/non-Durge playthrough), but I do think it's interesting to imagine Orin in the present day being barely an adult (in modern sensibilities at least) or even a mere teenager. It's not very often you have an antagonist that's so young
I love Orin, she is the weird flavor of female characters who are actually cringe failures, she's annoying and not that smart and I love her for that. I think the main thing about Orin is the fact she sucks at being a bhaalist, in a similar way that Shadowheart sucks at being a sharan, she cares too much, she puts too much of herself into it, and at the end of the day the objective of Bhaal is "kill everyone" doesn't matter who, when or where. So her art n crafts view of murder its similar to SH having a pet rat and openly praising Shar, it's none consequential, some might even say good. But to the cult is a transgression, something that's distracting you from the true purpose of your god. The thing about Orin that makes me love her, it's that in her failure she saved the world, either she took out the DU and doomed the plan that otherwise would have killed most of the world (As, when you explode Gale in act 2, it tells you how most everyone died by either becoming or being eaten by a mindflayer) or she gave the DU a possibility of redemption (again, destabilizing the plan and dooming it) and it pretty well explains why she wasn't the original chosen (I think there's even some letters that say it) Orin believes she knows better than Bhaal. When in reality she's just someone who is desperate for affection and trying to prove herself to people who are incapable of caring.
Orin's character is a tangle of tragedies, but one of the major ones is that her entire identity revolves around being Bhaal's chosen, but not only was she never that (it was first her mom, then the Dark Urge), she absolutely sucks at it. Most of the things she does, she does in part because she cannot admit to herself that she isn't one of Bhaal's chosen, she's a sacrifice that got uppity. And most of said things she does just further prove how she should've just died when she was seven and let the competent people handle things. I personally think that one big reason Orin is so devoted to being a Bhaalspawn is that it's her way of coping with murdering her mom. After all, if Bhaal chose her for great things and her mom trying to kill her was just a test, then Orin wouldn't have to be upset because it's just the way things should be, and it's Bhaal showing that he cared about her in a twisted way that Orin was raised to believe was right. But if it wasn't, and Sarevok wanted her dead and the only reason she's still alive is because Bhaal didn't care about either her or her mom, that's her whole justification gone.
I came here to say this more or less. While i dont doubt the cult of Bhaal has its misogyny, i think the point was more than *nobody* likes Orin and that she actively fucked up the plan. There's a journal in her room implied to be written by the Dark Urge, that basically says Durge sees her talent but she simply doesnt get it when it comes to Bhaal. Sarevok echoes this too. Bhaal doesnt care for her or anyone else's idea of beauty, only for murder and death in droves. She has talent but refuses to learn and it costs everyone else around her. Gortash also reinforces the fact that she is far too compulsive and destructive, compared to Durge who while Bhaal's chosen, knew when to dial it back and could be worked with. Orin is the cult's equivalent to some kid who got their position in the company through no reap merit of their own and everyone below and around them has to suck it up and deal with it for the sake of their jobs, AND the kid is the embodiment of the Dunning-Krueger effect. That combined with Orin's tragedy of desperately vying for affection and love from people incapable of providing that for her makes me like her along with the other villians more than i did my first time through. She's yet another victim in the horrible cycle of abuse while still being a simply irredeemable murder hobo and it works well i think.
You have no idea how excited I am to see that you decided to analyse Orin after the companions and the emperor!!! I love her sm (Durge player here) and honestly? To me, she's such a sad character. Sure, Ketheric and Gortash have their own sob stories, but they both had some measure of choice in becoming what they are. Orin though? Never stood a chance. She was *literally* born and bred to be a tool for Bhaal. She never had a life outside the cult, like Durge did in their childhood. Orin was made to be an instrument, and if you make her doubt for just a moment when you meet her in the Bhaal temple, Bhaal just forcibly takes over. Any autonomy or agency she ever appears to have is an illusion. Its so tragic
Additional ramblings: orin and durge. oughhh tragic siblings mess me up every time. They NEVER stood a chance to get along, to truly bond. They were played up against each other from the beginning, thus is the nature of their cult upbringing. They spent their lives competing for the love of a god who only ever saw them as tools, not people :((
i love your dissection of characters- you find the human in each one and fully illustrate their arcs and motives and it’s just wonderful i love your brain thank you for making these
Sarevok has a huge redeeming journey in BG2, as your companion. Its really cool to see him grow and reject bhaal after realizing he was never going to rule and was always destined to be a pawn. Unfortunately that story is based on character decisions which generally cant be assumed to be canon, however his discoveries of bhaals manipulation happen either way. But its totally invalidated in BG3, Where Sarevok is Bhaals favorite pawn. It was a waste of a great story. Although we do see a similar journey with Minthara, rejecting Lolth and the absolute. But the biggest issue with her, is she never got enough story. Imagine getting Mintharas story but with all the more context and backstory that Sarevok has. We were so close! Also Orin is cool too. Lol sorry, i like Sarevok.
I think the misogyny resding is a misreading, on the basis that sarevok supported his daughter. I think the point she goes about killing in a far more handcrafted way is more to the point. The bhaalspawn transformation itself shows that Bhaal desires bloody carnage, not artistic display.
That, and it isn’t consistent across playthroughs. My durge is a female drow, and obviously durge doesn’t go through the same stuff Orin has to in any capacity. While you could argue that’s because they were handcrafted by Bhaal, it still wouldn’t make sense for him to handcraft a female if sexism was heavily involved in the cult.
I think one thing people don't touch on enough, is that changelings are Fey, not humanoids. And Fey in the forgotten realms have innately a very alien form of alignment. So her acting much different than her human allies would like just makes so much sense. Like her mentality is literally alien to humans. So her not having good human connections, I think has less to do with her family being shit and more to do with she literally doesn't have that innate desire for human connections. The only connection she wants is with her deity. Changelings by nature do not have the innate emotion to trust others. Their entire lives is built on lies and deceit.
I’d wager Bhaal is also in on the misogyny and playing favorites. Orin never gets a compliment from Bhaal until she dies! When you kill her in the duel as Durge, Bhaal remarks “I expected the other [Orin].” Yet at every other turn it’s clear that Durge is the favored of Bhaal, but I guess maybe spurning her all the time is a calculated move by Bhaal. It’s what drives her.
I can see the misogyny being something that Bhaal: a) Does because he is a man himself, and is incredibly self-centred. b) Favours because it allows for the creation of more Bhaalspawn since a male can sire children at a much faster rate than a female.
dunno about misogyny. pretty sure it has more to do with Orin being Sarevok's incest baby and not Bhaal's actual kid. Meanwhile Durge has no mother is and literally formed from Bhaal's own gore and vicera. Durge is the chosen child above all others as essentially a kind of clone of Bhaal's and Orin is just there.
@@TGPDrunknHickI recently finished my first Dark Urge playthrough, but I didn't know that - I thought the Dark Urge was "just" a normal Bhaal spawn. Where do we learn that they are in fact crafted by Bhaal and have no mother? I would love to know! ❤
Orin actions, attire, and nature feel like a character that is written as the neglected child. Even negative attention is attention. She draws the audience to her through any means she has access to. She can’t be enough for anyone so there is a constant pressure to keep trying harder and harder. I believe your insight to her character is how the writers intended it.
I really love Orin as a character because It's very rare nowadays especially in the last 5-10 years; to actually get an irredeemable dick head as a villain. Writers in cinema and even games to an extent constantly try to make antiheroes or sympathetic villains. Honestly I just miss full-blooded villains with no redeeming qualities someone you can actually justify wanting to hate/kill.
I heard awhile ago the voice actress for Orin talked about how she basically got into the mindset for the character that she basically expresses all her emotions through the act of murder and learned to do this since murder was all she knew being raised by sarevok and the cult of bhaal and it’s definitely fascinating to think about how Orin’s mind works
I’m someone who has only watched clips and not played the game. I think the misogyny thing for Orin in relation to the Dark Urge is kind of a stretch only because… well, the Dark Urge can also be a woman. They are fully customizable. So when Bhaal and the others favor Durge over Orin, it doesn’t really feel like it is because of gender. More so… skill issue. The gender doesn’t really matter, being an efficient killer is what Bhall prefers.
Orin is yet another character that showcases the fact that the theme of BG3 is Autonomy with a lot of character arcs revolving around utilizing their own choice for the first time. Also i like how you can find a dead Durge if you play as Tav. Looks like she won in that timeline
I love what you said at 18:22 I always say something like “We’re the most connected we’ve ever been but also the most lonely” and that’s exactly why, it’s nice to hear someone else put that into words
An excellent look at Orin, a character I had never thought deeply on. I always saw her, as you suggested, as the “unredeemed” Durge. Particularly good calls on the misogyny of her treatment and the nature vs nurture differences between Orin & Durge. My favorite criticism of Durge by Skeleritus was the horrifying tale of how Durge once gave a coin to a beggar and then spared him. I usually joke that anything is forgivable if you’re cute enough (Astarion), but in the case of Orin and Durge I’m not sure. Great take. Thanks.
Part of me thinks that Baal preferred Durge’s dependence on needing a hand. It made them more subservient, whereas Orin was very independent with her killings. Hell, she killed her butler.
This analysis has me wondering if an Orin redemption arc could be interesting to explore, maybe through a fan-interpreted mod or something. The fact that she does seem to experience genuine shock and, while maybe not remorse, then betrayal, to revealing the nature of her familial origins, did get me somewhat interested in the idea of exploring if it's possible -- in that it'd be interesting from a writing perspective -- for Orin to be given a new hand that's slightly less evil, maybe.
No, time to turn the world off for a moment. Don’t bother me. New pocket leaves video is up, I can’t be interrupted 😊 Seriously, I absolutely LOVE the deep dives you do. It’s always a good day when there’s a new upload of yours to look forward to 😁
I stretched canon a bit by making my redemption Dark Urge character Orin's twin sister. Her name was Remi and she was more calculating and less impulsive than Orin. They had a sibling rivalry from birth, both heavily competing for Bhaal's favor. Orin's murder of Helena when they were children gave her the top spot for a while, but Remi won out in adulthood by devising the Absolute project. Orin got so angry that she ended up sabotaging the plan and turning Remi into a victim of it.
Yes I think its perfectly fine to relate to some aspects of evil characters. People sometimes confuse real life with fiction and think its weird someone likes villain who does evil things bit I am always like hey just because I like them doesn’t mean I accept their actions. Sometimes its about those relatable aspects which speak to me and its usually some trauma from childhood those characters went through which I can relate to and it makes me feel seen in a way. And sometimes its that tragedy of those characters hidden under layers of lore which make me like them in the first place
I saw the butler saying that the dark urge couldn't conduct themselves properly meant that they were TOO gross and violent about their killings.... But maybe I'm wrong
While it could mean something relating to mysogyny, I don't think so. To me, it is the same as saying something is misandrist because someone said a man was acting like a boy. I think the line refers to the childish nature of her elaborate kills. Gortash even seems to communicate this when he compares the way you and Orin kill when you first meet him. Orin is like a caricature of the dark urge, whom seems to be trying too hard to impress people. And when you try too hard to impress people, that could backfire and make you look desperate.
16:20 she can actually show up in camp!! My last playthrough I didn’t get to the sewers for a while so she showed up in camp as Lae’zel and was trying to convince me that Yenna was Orin, and then I had to choose between her and the kid. Chose to kid, she revealed herself and Orin and let Yenna go.
I found her fascinating. She was definitely one of my favourite villains! You did (another) great job at explaining her complexity and motives! Thank you I’m really enjoying this series 😊
that MCR joke has me imagining sarevok listening to the black parade on like an ipod nano that would have been around when the song came out -- with the little white wired earbuds inside his big spikey helmet -- interpreting it through a bhaalist lens and kinda getting the whole thing backwards but relating so hard to it that he gets genuinely emotional and misty eyed
very cool to see the game devs come up with a reprehensibly evil character who also has a reason for why and how she became that way. it's something you don't seem too often honestly. I love Larian.
Great video! I usually like to think deep about characters like this but never expected so much depth to Oryn. I thought she was just a juxtaposition to Gortash with Gortash being proper, calculated, plays mental games, and hardly does killings himself and usually gets others to do his dirty work. While Oryn is just insane and outlandish. Such a great job looking so deep into this character and making me appreciate her on a whole other level!
You know if you play as evil dark urge if you tell orin your grandfather actually is your father bhaal tells orin I make you deserving sacrifice for my favourite child and force her become slayer
As real as it is, I don't think mysoginy is the reason she was downplayed. The question is more about "purity". Being treated so highly despite the fact she wasn't true Bhaalspawn, while the "perfect" specimen is around her at all times. She just received the taint from her blood. Durge actually seemed to cherish her, saying on his letter that Orin still needs to grow and that he admires her abilities as a shape-shifter. I'm disappointed Larian didn't seem to make the effort to create a redeemed Urge that's honestly trying to save his sister, even if it's impossible.
Orin reminds me a bit of Azula. I do feel sorry for her when you tell her the truth. Bhaal steps in takes control, and says no more, Orin. Yeah, even if you despised her, it's still a brutal way to go.
I laughed at 0:43 and I really like your flamboyant, quasi-gothic outfit. Dam, I can't imagine not being loved, even if I was most people's least favorite, I was still loved. I consider myself lucky all things considered.
It didn't occur to me the misogynistic view with Orin and now I feel so bad! I played a male Dark Urge and joked about the pre-amnesia time being “me and the boys” (Gortash, Ketheric, and my male Durge) 😅
Did anyone notice that in the normal playthrough, Orin's room has a dead, pale dragonborn next to her bed? Yup. The Dark Urge exists even in the normal route, and was betrayed by Orin , BUT they died in the process... Makes you wonder if the normal, "Tav" character is dead or unaffiliated in the adventure during the Dark Urge playthrough... 🤔
The prequel adventure "Blood in Baldur's Gate" (an online cooperative RPG played in your browser, released before BG3) has you play as Tav who is investigating murders in the city. You even meet Valeria in your investigation. Canonically, you are murdered in the sewers by a dragonborn sorcerer, the culprit behind the murders, as their fiendish butler watches with glee. So yeah, Tav is one of many dead bodies under Durge's belt in a Durge playthrough.
In BG2 Sarevok's story is about discovering himself without being a Baalspawn. So it's kinda disappointing to see him revert to being unambiguously evil.
I headcanon that, since in BG3 Sarevok states that Bhaal resurrected him, but in BG2 it is explicitly stated that Gorion's Ward and his party resurrect Sarevok without any of his Bhaalspawn blood, it was actually TWO Sarevoks. Hear me out. The Sarevok that the Ward resurrected was like a Redeemed Durge whom Withers resurrected, a man without the inherited dark urge left to make his own destiny. He went on to live a troubled life but was ultimately redeemed by the Ward. Eventually he moved back to his hometown to bury his lost love, as is said in his ending, and maybe even died since he was a mercenary or perhaps to natural causes and was taken to the Fugue Planes as he was godless. But that entire time, his Bhaalspawn blood remained in the Hells until about a century later, after Gorion's Ward was killed and the last of the Bhaalspawn were wiped out. This resurrected Bhaal (as is canon) and he went to work on his perfect child to become his Chosen and later his Avatar. Bhaal conceived the Dark Urge, his perfect spawn. He resurrected the Bhaal-blood of Sarevok from the Hells and resurrected it to serve as the master of the Murder Tribunal. The tainted blood was formed into an incarnation of Sarevok dedicated to murder, and was without any character development from his travels with the Ward, only having vague memories of that redemption. This evil Sarevok was wholly loyal to Bhaal, unlike the true Sarevok as we know him in BG1 who was only using his Bhaalist powers for his personal gain. He is more akin to an Echo like the ghosts of The Five (antagonists of BG2) whom now serve him in Bhaal's Murder Tribunal. Jaheira and Minsc have no idea that this Sarevok now is all the evil blood they originally left out when he was resurrected, so they are left to think their former redeemed ally had went back to the dark path. This, of course, is all headcanon as the truth is WotC canonized the very dodgy novels that killed off the redeemed Sarevok and then later mandated Larian to include legacy characters like Sarevok despite canonizing his death... lmao
Just wanted to say this video was really nice and feeds my current bg3 addiction well and you have such a heartwarming laugh/giggle, I just wanted to point that out
Orin is my silly murder hobo fantasy. Sometimes I’m just so tried and going apeshit is a vibe. I’m making a murder hobo oc for them to commit murder together and be sadistic. This OC is the epitome of my urges from “I make art cuz murder is wrong”
Tbh, its not Sarevok we knew. If you ask him, how the hell he is alive, he will mention that a lesser bhaalspawn summoned "Sarevoks shadow" to posess this vessel. In essence, this not exactly the og Sarevok, but unholy abomination influenced by some pricks idea of who Sarevok was.
I can’t believe I haven’t seen your videos before. Screw the algorithm. Love these in depth analyses! Going to binge this channel while I’m finishing up my HM play through. Thanks for the videos!
would you consider doing a video on sarevok, if you’ve played the first two games? larian did him so dirty. he used to be one of the best written evil characters. he was intelligent and had a very interesting backstory. he was able to have a redemption arc as well if his sibling (the player character) showed him an ounce of love and care. i adore bg3 but not how they handled sarevok unfortunately.
I'm honestly not sure! I'd like to think so? If that's the story that Larian wanted to tell, then I think it'd be possible. But I've had people tell me that since she's a changeling, morality is very different for her.
@@PocketLeaves They're wrong. Changelings do have a generally human mindset and whatever differences they have are mostly a reaction to being able to shapeshift at will.
22:40 I personally never saw it like that but I could 100% believe that there was some form of a relationship there but that both sides valued their gods over this personal attachment.
I'm here late, BUT, I have a very dumb add-on. So Orin a product of....what you said in the video. And when you are a...product, you have a higher chance of developing all sorts of health issues. I think the reason her eyes are so cloudy is because her vison isn't actually great due to a birth defect. In terms of genetics, we see this a lot in cats who have poor genes. They develop hearing and seeing issues when their gene pool is poor, and in terms of cats, this happens most often in cats with white fur. Orin is both pale and blonde (not quite albino) but she's close to it. I'm sure this might have not been intentional, but I'd like to think so.
She's a changeling, their canonical appearance is just like that (cloudy white eyes, light hair, pale skin, etc.) As far as we see, she didn't inherit any visible issues from her consanguineous parentage, unless you count her insanity, which could just be from her upbringing.
i know what it's like to love a father figure with your whole being but to never be enough for them. to never be what they actually want. i get it orin, i really do.
Hi, I had a great time listening to you here. Honestly I know Orin from Minthara's perspective only and because I love Minthara I have no compassion for Orin xd. I am on my second playthrough and planning to kill Orin without mercy again for she seems nothing more than bloody psychopath at this moment but after you video I promise to start my next run as Dark Urge and TRY to understand this lady's motivations and story without prejudice. Always great to find out something new and get deeper into the lore of this amaing game.
The theory I came up with, given my own Dirge character, was that Bhaal manipulated Helena into going after the Durge after she failed to dispose of Orin. Bhaal whispered there was another option for her, encouraging Helena to seek out & kidnap their preferred chosen. Thus forcing them into a 1-on-1 duel between Bhaalspawn. Because of the challenge right, succeeding in beating Helena awakens the Durge's Bhaal-blood, and they turn. At least partly against their own will. If you're a resist Durge, then absolutely against your will. If an embrace, then initially resistant, if only out of confusion. This also creates a bond of resentment between Orin and her "cousin", because of her complicated feelings about her mom. As for Orin, Bhaal prefers the Durge over her not because of any gender coding, but because Orin's acts of worship involve things that have no place in his church. Like you said, Orin's "projects" are offerings of love and adoration- artistic expressions- things that have nothing to do with Bhaal, and are thus tainting his offerings. Which is why Bhaal is so keen on getting their original Durge back under their control. Because Orin's attack, coupled with their own resistance and a convenient brain tadpole, allowed them to break free of Bhaal's influence.
As a person with borderline personality disorder i can see we share something in common :( and i felt so much compassion after talking to her mum's corpse. Bruh, what a fucked up family when you're always not enough
I didn't really care about the other two, but Orin just seems so damaged and hurt. You don't get that crazy from just being born. It's her whole upbringing. Most of the other evil characters became corrupted or made a choice to be evil. Orin was born into a "family" that didn't care for her and originally planned to just use her as a sacrifice. She's loyal to Bhaal the entire time, doing everything expected of her, but the whole time she was never going to be good enough. I really wish Larian made some way of reaching her, or at least making her see the reality of her situation.
Amazing work as always! however you did miss something with her impersonating your companions. I Don't know what triggers it but I know most the time I've seen the cutscene it's been in the elf song. But she will impersonate one of your companions doing something terrible to terrorize you before revealing herself. Lae'zel is threatening Yenna iirc. Minthara will say she killed another companion in self defense and that you and her are going to have to fight off the other companions because they lump you two together. Halsin will go wild and look like he hurt Scratch (he's actually okay). Gale will freak out and act like he's blowing himself up. I think Yenna kills the cat if it's her
I have finished the game 4 times, and have never seen her do that, so I wasn't aware of that until reading these comments! I really need to figure out how to get those scenes to trigger
@@PocketLeavesIf you take all companions that are Orin's potential hostages (Halsin, Gale and Lae'Zel; if Minthara is also present, the leftover companion will always be the hostage). That way, Yenna will be the hostage, and all your companions are available. As for Orin; I don't know. I don't see her as my Durge's sister, never did. I get the impression that Durge is more sibling like with Sarevok than Orin, being that both Durge and Sarevok seems created by Bhaal himself, while Orin was made in a more traditional manner if not in the most natural genetic fashion.
I saw this video a while ago but didn't look it up because I wanted to finish the game a few times. I forgot about for a time then the video pops up in my recommend and after checking this our you got style. Good on you for having your own opinions and even if I don't ship the same I at least can understand where your coming from. I enjoyed the murder art's and crafts way of explaining how Orin go about things and can totally get on bored with that take. Now I'm off to check out more from this channel now that I found it again.
I mean, saying Orin is good at what she does is a bit of a stretch. She's probably the worst changeling ever and she gets caught up in the frenzy too easily. The way Scleritas describes her murder attempt on the Durge makes it clear that she suceeded pretty much because Durge didn't think much of her to begin with. All three chosen seem like lost children without Durge. Orin is a child who cannot control herself, Gortash is literally Elon Musk and Ketheric is an old-ass LARPER.
when you said "minthara" in an orin video and that everyone loves her too if they love orin I had bo choice but to subscribeeeeeee 🧚♀That aside, great video! I loved how deep you were actually digging into her personality
One of my favorite theories for Orin is that she is unintentionally the true hero of the game, for a good run, because of her jealousy, she does what she does to Durge, and sets the motion for the failure of the Dead Three HAHAHAHA
while i personally believe the misogyny theory for orin's religious trauma adds SO MUCH depth, it is worth noting that because orin's race IS changeling, she technically is unisex and as a child probably took on *some* features from helena. changelings are generally just like genderless mannequins because of their doppelganger heritage. defo makes sense tho that she kind of leans on the helena-esque form as almost a sub-conscious way of coping.
My warlock Emrys hated fighting Orin. Both of them have similar backgrounds. Her parents intended to kill her . She's pretty much his reflection in a cracked mirror. She's trapped in the darkness. Whereas he's found the light.
As much as I feel bad for Orin's past she still scares the absolute shit out of me. Every time she shows up on screen I close my legs. tense up, and remain like that for a little bit even after she leaves. The last time a fictional character did that to me was in AtLA with Koh the Face Stealer. Also I don't see the other Bhaalspawns hating on Orin because she is a woman. I see it more as them finding any reason to hate on her because she was supposed to be the offering, not the Assassin.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Ngl, the second I heard Lae’zel say that she ran away in the sewers, I was as instantly like “You’re not Lae’zel.”
REAL! Lae'zel would never back down
I hate how youre always taken for a fool. You never even get an insight check to know whether or not its Orin, despite the kidnapped companion behaving absolutely nothing like their character.
@@fellowtraveler2251 might be caused because act 3 had to get out a bit faster than act 2 and especially 1
In my 1st playthrough, she threatened to kill Yenna at camp because she was suspectful etc. and it was pretty on point. You had the possibility to say "Another normal evening at camp, I see." and honestly I felt that 😂
I am scratching my chin when this happens, but not taking off both hands on my controller
orin is the visually artistic prodigy in a family full of athletes and bards.
Many cult predators began as cult victims. Orin is no exception.
Orin is such an important character for redemption durge and makes their journey so interesting like this person who gave you brain damage, nearly killing you, is the catalyst for you to be able to learn to be your own person and show the middle finger to a god! I imagined my durge _thanking_ a confused dying Orin for everything she did for them cause in a twisted way my durge would not have found their family without Orin
Yes, this exactly! She is a horrible murderer, but she stopped us (the Dark Urge) and gave us a new life. The whole time in my (redemption) DU playthrough, I knew I had to stop her in turn, but I was endlessly grateful. I had done far worse and nevertheless gotten this incredible gift of a new life full of true friendship and love, _completely_ undeserving.
In a sense, tragically, Orin would have deserved redemption more than DU, but she didn't even get that and had to die in despair... whereas DU is saved, comforted and given absolution by a god!
From Orin's point of view, it's so incredibly unjust.
Which is why you should kill Orin last as the dark urge. It's just the natural conclusion to the chosen arc, and it makes withers speech to you much more impactful
Orin never had a childhood, and her murders seem to take a quality in which she incorporates play in her own twisted way. Just a thought!
She definitely reminds me of Jinx from Arcane in some ways and that'd be one of them.
@@Kasiarzynka You know that’s a parallel I never considered, but now I see it. She’s evil Jinx
She’s a regular Michael Jackson
Her shortsword's description pretty much confirms this.
I relate a lot to Orin. Not in the murderous tendencies way, but in the constantly wanting that feeling of acceptance. I was the “gifted” kid growing up. From a young age I was told that I was “more mature” or “smarter than most”. As I grew older however,what I was once praised for was now a bad thing. “You’re too mature for this.” Or “You’re too smart for your own good.” Those types of sentiments. Which led me to doing anything I could to get those positive regards back. I took on too much work,I strived to make everything I did perfect,but it only made things worse. Suddenly I “tried too hard” or was “fishing for compliments.” All the while,my own sibling was being praised for the same things. It’s that being put on a pedestal,and then falling off,but being unable to climb back on that relates me to Orin. She was a prodigy,lifted up so she stopped developing mentally,and then had all that ripped away from her and suddenly finding herself being the mistake. She had no chance of being anything more than what she was and it’s heartbreaking that I relate to her in this way. I don’t think she could’ve been redeemed in game, but she’s a prime example of villains aren’t born,they’re made. Also,this was stupid long and I apologize.
I loved this
It’s a more common experience than you’d think. I relate.
don't worry, you're not alone. i wish you the best
16:30 Orin can actually show up at camp as the companion she's pretending to be. But you have to rest at camp right after Gortash tells you about the imposter in your camp, and a lot of people tend to go to the sewers instead.
If Orin is pretending to be Lae'zel in the camp scene, she threatens to kill Yenna, and will go through with it if you don't convince her not to.
Ooh! That's good to know! I'll make a point to try and find her that way next play through!
@@PocketLeaves Also there's no guarantee that the first post-Gortash long rest will trigger the camp scene, so it might take multiple long rests to get it.
@@artificerprime4154 Yeah, on my second playthrough I fucked around to too long without going into the sewers until she eventually got bored I guess and came to camp, lol. Fun to imagine her just sitting there in her little disguise waiting by the door for you, ocassionally checking the time like "What's taking them so long??"
When Halsin was holding dead Scratch at camp, but he turned out to actually be Orin during my Durge playthrough...
i actually went to the sewers, talked to nine fingers, and then rested at camp and still got the orin/laezel cutscene. this is my third playthrough as well so i’m not really sure what the benchmarks are to getting it, because i feel like i haven’t done anything different except not get a room at the inn yet. i say that because im assuming the SPOILER…………
halsin and scratch scene is another one you can get after G tells you about O in your camp
The parallel between Orin bringing an arts and crafts vibe to the cult and me in my fly ass looks living in a monastery are undeniable
The tragedy of Orin is that she never stood a chance.
It took the Dark Urge amnesia, an Illithid tadpole, multiple wisdom saves, and Jergal's own intervention to break free of Bhaal. What does Orin have going for her? Certainly not the wisdom to make any saving throws.
@@theawickward2255
Idk, she DOES have a wisdom score of 16
It's obviously a skill issue
Literally. 2 sixth level magic missiles. 2 divine smites. Down
Second comment to say that I've told my friends that this game is about cycles of abuse, and no one illustrates that more than the Chosen. Religious abuse. Familial Abuse. Societal/Communal Abuse.
Ketheric sought solace from the gods, but in the end, received nothing in return until Myrkul revived Isobel, and even then, in his moment of greatest need, Myrkul cut his loses and ran.
Gortash lived in a poor family with parents that didn't foster his gifts nor temper his worst attributes. When his parents sold him to Raphael to settle their debts, he was treated like absolute dog crap, to the point where he even seems to have adopted Raphael's philosophies to the point here he agrees with Raphael's methods and ideals. He adopted the ways of the Hells because it was the only way he could survive, and upon his return, found a God who not only espoused those beliefs, but rewarded them. I'm willing to bet money that the thing that elevated Gortash to becoming Bane's chosen was betraying Karlach and then utilizing that betrayal to benefit himself.
Orin's very conception was an act of abuse perpetrated by those she should have been able to call family, and it never got any easier or better from there. Lied to, dehumanized, made inferior, and then, in her eyes, seemingly mocked by being provided a *helper* of all things from the being she's been working so hard to please, the being she calls Father...
6:45 Oh you couldn't murder your daughter? "Skill issue"
(This shouldn't have made me laugh as much as it did)
Durge playthrough completely deflates Orin's character. In a Tav playthrough Orin is scary and insane, someone you should be afraid of. In the Durge playthrough she is the annoying younger sister who is jealous of you being the favorite, and steals your toys.
She's still pretty scary if your Durge is a bard that wasn't built to do a lot of damage on their own.
@@PocketLeavesSwords bard with 1 level of War Cleric, Gloves of Archery, Titanstring Bow, and Club of Hillgiant Strength can kill Orin in 1-2 rounds on balanced as long as you get the Surprise round with Shovel.
@@emperortime4380playing durge and you *don’t* duel Orin? It’s such a cool sequence, did it on my first honor run as a roguebarian duergar (so enraged and enlarged slayer form + potion of speed)
@@DestroyerOfSouls213 I’ve played so many times at this point, I just speedrun Orin. One time I just used Surgeon’s Subjugation and paralyzed her to start combat. This video has revitalized my interest in her as a character, but I had been super over her after my third run when she kidnapped Gale. I was literally about to finish his setup with Staff of Cherished necromancy then I run into her in the sewers. I was real life mad lol
@@DestroyerOfSouls213 I’m actually getting close to her on my first honor run. It’s the last achievement I need
The cycle of abuse is one of the most important themes in this game, and Orin is a character that continues the cycle with no chance of leaving it.
I have no sympathy for her, but no hate either, just pity.
I agree that the way Sarevok uses the term "girlish" could be interpreted as misogyny, that was my first thought too, but my second thought was it was probably a reference to her maturity. Or, rather, her immaturity. Sarevok is older (and not inbred >.>), formerly a champion of Bhaal and now serving him in death. Sarevok knows more than his grand/daughter what their Dread Progenitor wants from his offspring, and he knows that Orin is prone to the same arrogance that led to the Dark Urge's downfall. After all, look at how she treats her Butler, a gift from Bhaal himself. To him her actions are the height of thinking she knows better, and that, at this point, only her own death will teach her.
I can see that! It's hard for me to gauge just how old Orin is supposed to be, and therefore how mature/immature she is. But she does have a bit of youthfulness to her, and especially when you play as Dark Urge, she feels younger than you, like the younger sibling trying to measure up and surpass you.
@@PocketLeaves the game refers to her as a woman, so I think she's at the very least of-age. Course, they call Gortash a you man and he's easily mid-late-20's to early 30's, so who knows
I always thought she was just a young woman, but Sarevok describes Orin as the youngest prodigy of Bhaal ever, so I've honestly started wondering if Orin ingame is actually only around 19-20. I mean, maybe he was referring to the fact that Orin murdered her mother at age 7 and became Bhaal's chosen (on a Tav/non-Durge playthrough), but I do think it's interesting to imagine Orin in the present day being barely an adult (in modern sensibilities at least) or even a mere teenager. It's not very often you have an antagonist that's so young
I love Orin, she is the weird flavor of female characters who are actually cringe failures, she's annoying and not that smart and I love her for that.
I think the main thing about Orin is the fact she sucks at being a bhaalist, in a similar way that Shadowheart sucks at being a sharan, she cares too much, she puts too much of herself into it, and at the end of the day the objective of Bhaal is "kill everyone" doesn't matter who, when or where. So her art n crafts view of murder its similar to SH having a pet rat and openly praising Shar, it's none consequential, some might even say good. But to the cult is a transgression, something that's distracting you from the true purpose of your god.
The thing about Orin that makes me love her, it's that in her failure she saved the world, either she took out the DU and doomed the plan that otherwise would have killed most of the world (As, when you explode Gale in act 2, it tells you how most everyone died by either becoming or being eaten by a mindflayer) or she gave the DU a possibility of redemption (again, destabilizing the plan and dooming it) and it pretty well explains why she wasn't the original chosen (I think there's even some letters that say it) Orin believes she knows better than Bhaal. When in reality she's just someone who is desperate for affection and trying to prove herself to people who are incapable of caring.
Orin's character is a tangle of tragedies, but one of the major ones is that her entire identity revolves around being Bhaal's chosen, but not only was she never that (it was first her mom, then the Dark Urge), she absolutely sucks at it. Most of the things she does, she does in part because she cannot admit to herself that she isn't one of Bhaal's chosen, she's a sacrifice that got uppity. And most of said things she does just further prove how she should've just died when she was seven and let the competent people handle things.
I personally think that one big reason Orin is so devoted to being a Bhaalspawn is that it's her way of coping with murdering her mom. After all, if Bhaal chose her for great things and her mom trying to kill her was just a test, then Orin wouldn't have to be upset because it's just the way things should be, and it's Bhaal showing that he cared about her in a twisted way that Orin was raised to believe was right. But if it wasn't, and Sarevok wanted her dead and the only reason she's still alive is because Bhaal didn't care about either her or her mom, that's her whole justification gone.
I came here to say this more or less. While i dont doubt the cult of Bhaal has its misogyny, i think the point was more than *nobody* likes Orin and that she actively fucked up the plan. There's a journal in her room implied to be written by the Dark Urge, that basically says Durge sees her talent but she simply doesnt get it when it comes to Bhaal. Sarevok echoes this too. Bhaal doesnt care for her or anyone else's idea of beauty, only for murder and death in droves. She has talent but refuses to learn and it costs everyone else around her.
Gortash also reinforces the fact that she is far too compulsive and destructive, compared to Durge who while Bhaal's chosen, knew when to dial it back and could be worked with.
Orin is the cult's equivalent to some kid who got their position in the company through no reap merit of their own and everyone below and around them has to suck it up and deal with it for the sake of their jobs, AND the kid is the embodiment of the Dunning-Krueger effect.
That combined with Orin's tragedy of desperately vying for affection and love from people incapable of providing that for her makes me like her along with the other villians more than i did my first time through. She's yet another victim in the horrible cycle of abuse while still being a simply irredeemable murder hobo and it works well i think.
You have no idea how excited I am to see that you decided to analyse Orin after the companions and the emperor!!! I love her sm (Durge player here) and honestly? To me, she's such a sad character. Sure, Ketheric and Gortash have their own sob stories, but they both had some measure of choice in becoming what they are. Orin though? Never stood a chance. She was *literally* born and bred to be a tool for Bhaal. She never had a life outside the cult, like Durge did in their childhood. Orin was made to be an instrument, and if you make her doubt for just a moment when you meet her in the Bhaal temple, Bhaal just forcibly takes over. Any autonomy or agency she ever appears to have is an illusion. Its so tragic
Additional ramblings: orin and durge. oughhh tragic siblings mess me up every time. They NEVER stood a chance to get along, to truly bond. They were played up against each other from the beginning, thus is the nature of their cult upbringing. They spent their lives competing for the love of a god who only ever saw them as tools, not people :((
All three of the chosen of the Dead Three are characters I'm capable of feeling sorry for while also recognizing they are too far gone to be redeemed.
YES! That's what's so good about the writing in this game!
It's more about putting them out of their misery, even though none of them will ever find peace in the afterlife given that their gods own their souls
i love your dissection of characters- you find the human in each one and fully illustrate their arcs and motives and it’s just wonderful i love your brain thank you for making these
Sarevok has a huge redeeming journey in BG2, as your companion. Its really cool to see him grow and reject bhaal after realizing he was never going to rule and was always destined to be a pawn. Unfortunately that story is based on character decisions which generally cant be assumed to be canon, however his discoveries of bhaals manipulation happen either way.
But its totally invalidated in BG3, Where Sarevok is Bhaals favorite pawn.
It was a waste of a great story. Although we do see a similar journey with Minthara, rejecting Lolth and the absolute. But the biggest issue with her, is she never got enough story.
Imagine getting Mintharas story but with all the more context and backstory that Sarevok has.
We were so close!
Also Orin is cool too. Lol sorry, i like Sarevok.
I agree. I also felt the same way about Viconia, her role in BG3 goes completely against her journey up till then.
Didn’t he fuck his daughter
I think the misogyny resding is a misreading, on the basis that sarevok supported his daughter.
I think the point she goes about killing in a far more handcrafted way is more to the point. The bhaalspawn transformation itself shows that Bhaal desires bloody carnage, not artistic display.
That, and it isn’t consistent across playthroughs. My durge is a female drow, and obviously durge doesn’t go through the same stuff Orin has to in any capacity. While you could argue that’s because they were handcrafted by Bhaal, it still wouldn’t make sense for him to handcraft a female if sexism was heavily involved in the cult.
@@akatsuki3399 As far as I can recall, sexism isn't part of his character in either of the other Baldur gate games either.
In a realm of "I can fix her", she's a final boss.
Story Mode: Shadowheart
Balanced Mode: Lae'zel
Tactician: Minthara
HONOR MODE: ORIN
I think one thing people don't touch on enough, is that changelings are Fey, not humanoids. And Fey in the forgotten realms have innately a very alien form of alignment. So her acting much different than her human allies would like just makes so much sense.
Like her mentality is literally alien to humans. So her not having good human connections, I think has less to do with her family being shit and more to do with she literally doesn't have that innate desire for human connections. The only connection she wants is with her deity. Changelings by nature do not have the innate emotion to trust others. Their entire lives is built on lies and deceit.
Changelings are also native to Eberron, not the Forgotten Realms.
I’d wager Bhaal is also in on the misogyny and playing favorites. Orin never gets a compliment from Bhaal until she dies! When you kill her in the duel as Durge, Bhaal remarks “I expected the other [Orin].”
Yet at every other turn it’s clear that Durge is the favored of Bhaal, but I guess maybe spurning her all the time is a calculated move by Bhaal. It’s what drives her.
I can totally see this!!
She's a lot like Azula in that regard
I can see the misogyny being something that Bhaal:
a) Does because he is a man himself, and is incredibly self-centred.
b) Favours because it allows for the creation of more Bhaalspawn since a male can sire children at a much faster rate than a female.
dunno about misogyny. pretty sure it has more to do with Orin being Sarevok's incest baby and not Bhaal's actual kid. Meanwhile Durge has no mother is and literally formed from Bhaal's own gore and vicera. Durge is the chosen child above all others as essentially a kind of clone of Bhaal's and Orin is just there.
@@TGPDrunknHickI recently finished my first Dark Urge playthrough, but I didn't know that - I thought the Dark Urge was "just" a normal Bhaal spawn. Where do we learn that they are in fact crafted by Bhaal and have no mother? I would love to know! ❤
Orin actions, attire, and nature feel like a character that is written as the neglected child. Even negative attention is attention. She draws the audience to her through any means she has access to. She can’t be enough for anyone so there is a constant pressure to keep trying harder and harder. I believe your insight to her character is how the writers intended it.
I really love Orin as a character because It's very rare nowadays especially in the last 5-10 years; to actually get an irredeemable dick head as a villain.
Writers in cinema and even games to an extent constantly try to make antiheroes or sympathetic villains. Honestly I just miss full-blooded villains with no redeeming qualities someone you can actually justify wanting to hate/kill.
I heard awhile ago the voice actress for Orin talked about how she basically got into the mindset for the character that she basically expresses all her emotions through the act of murder and learned to do this since murder was all she knew being raised by sarevok and the cult of bhaal and it’s definitely fascinating to think about how Orin’s mind works
I’m someone who has only watched clips and not played the game. I think the misogyny thing for Orin in relation to the Dark Urge is kind of a stretch only because… well, the Dark Urge can also be a woman. They are fully customizable. So when Bhaal and the others favor Durge over Orin, it doesn’t really feel like it is because of gender. More so… skill issue. The gender doesn’t really matter, being an efficient killer is what Bhall prefers.
Orin is yet another character that showcases the fact that the theme of BG3 is Autonomy with a lot of character arcs revolving around utilizing their own choice for the first time.
Also i like how you can find a dead Durge if you play as Tav. Looks like she won in that timeline
I love what you said at 18:22 I always say something like “We’re the most connected we’ve ever been but also the most lonely” and that’s exactly why, it’s nice to hear someone else put that into words
An excellent look at Orin, a character I had never thought deeply on. I always saw her, as you suggested, as the “unredeemed” Durge. Particularly good calls on the misogyny of her treatment and the nature vs nurture differences between Orin & Durge.
My favorite criticism of Durge by Skeleritus was the horrifying tale of how Durge once gave a coin to a beggar and then spared him.
I usually joke that anything is forgivable if you’re cute enough (Astarion), but in the case of Orin and Durge I’m not sure.
Great take. Thanks.
Part of me thinks that Baal preferred Durge’s dependence on needing a hand. It made them more subservient, whereas Orin was very independent with her killings. Hell, she killed her butler.
This analysis has me wondering if an Orin redemption arc could be interesting to explore, maybe through a fan-interpreted mod or something. The fact that she does seem to experience genuine shock and, while maybe not remorse, then betrayal, to revealing the nature of her familial origins, did get me somewhat interested in the idea of exploring if it's possible -- in that it'd be interesting from a writing perspective -- for Orin to be given a new hand that's slightly less evil, maybe.
No, time to turn the world off for a moment. Don’t bother me. New pocket leaves video is up, I can’t be interrupted 😊 Seriously, I absolutely LOVE the deep dives you do. It’s always a good day when there’s a new upload of yours to look forward to 😁
I stretched canon a bit by making my redemption Dark Urge character Orin's twin sister. Her name was Remi and she was more calculating and less impulsive than Orin. They had a sibling rivalry from birth, both heavily competing for Bhaal's favor. Orin's murder of Helena when they were children gave her the top spot for a while, but Remi won out in adulthood by devising the Absolute project. Orin got so angry that she ended up sabotaging the plan and turning Remi into a victim of it.
Yes I think its perfectly fine to relate to some aspects of evil characters. People sometimes confuse real life with fiction and think its weird someone likes villain who does evil things bit I am always like hey just because I like them doesn’t mean I accept their actions. Sometimes its about those relatable aspects which speak to me and its usually some trauma from childhood those characters went through which I can relate to and it makes me feel seen in a way. And sometimes its that tragedy of those characters hidden under layers of lore which make me like them in the first place
I saw the butler saying that the dark urge couldn't conduct themselves properly meant that they were TOO gross and violent about their killings.... But maybe I'm wrong
That can be up to interpretation since it's never specified WHY Durge needed the butler's help.
I wish I could stand up for Orin as Dark Urge cause tbh I'm not that mad at her. I respect the hussle. Also I am forever weak for siblings in media.
I adore these analyses ^^
Orin never got the chance to be anything other than what she becomes, and that makes her such a tragic character.
While it could mean something relating to mysogyny, I don't think so. To me, it is the same as saying something is misandrist because someone said a man was acting like a boy.
I think the line refers to the childish nature of her elaborate kills. Gortash even seems to communicate this when he compares the way you and Orin kill when you first meet him.
Orin is like a caricature of the dark urge, whom seems to be trying too hard to impress people. And when you try too hard to impress people, that could backfire and make you look desperate.
16:20 she can actually show up in camp!! My last playthrough I didn’t get to the sewers for a while so she showed up in camp as Lae’zel and was trying to convince me that Yenna was Orin, and then I had to choose between her and the kid. Chose to kid, she revealed herself and Orin and let Yenna go.
I found her fascinating. She was definitely one of my favourite villains! You did (another) great job at explaining her complexity and motives! Thank you I’m really enjoying this series 😊
that MCR joke has me imagining sarevok listening to the black parade on like an ipod nano that would have been around when the song came out -- with the little white wired earbuds inside his big spikey helmet -- interpreting it through a bhaalist lens and kinda getting the whole thing backwards but relating so hard to it that he gets genuinely emotional and misty eyed
Orin: Nobody appreciates my artisanal murder spree.
I headcanon that Orin would idolize Lady Gaga because of her taste in fashion. Takes guts to wear pretty meat (literally)
very cool to see the game devs come up with a reprehensibly evil character who also has a reason for why and how she became that way. it's something you don't seem too often honestly. I love Larian.
Great video! I usually like to think deep about characters like this but never expected so much depth to Oryn. I thought she was just a juxtaposition to Gortash with Gortash being proper, calculated, plays mental games, and hardly does killings himself and usually gets others to do his dirty work. While Oryn is just insane and outlandish. Such a great job looking so deep into this character and making me appreciate her on a whole other level!
You know if you play as evil dark urge if you tell orin your grandfather actually is your father bhaal tells orin I make you deserving sacrifice for my favourite child and force her become slayer
As real as it is, I don't think mysoginy is the reason she was downplayed.
The question is more about "purity". Being treated so highly despite the fact she wasn't true Bhaalspawn, while the "perfect" specimen is around her at all times. She just received the taint from her blood. Durge actually seemed to cherish her, saying on his letter that Orin still needs to grow and that he admires her abilities as a shape-shifter. I'm disappointed Larian didn't seem to make the effort to create a redeemed Urge that's honestly trying to save his sister, even if it's impossible.
He must led the Murder March to Baldur’s Grave was definitely a bar
She was so quirky for that asdfasdf
Orin reminds me a bit of Azula. I do feel sorry for her when you tell her the truth. Bhaal steps in takes control, and says no more, Orin. Yeah, even if you despised her, it's still a brutal way to go.
omg yeah the Azula comparison is pretty spot on I'd say.
I laughed at 0:43 and I really like your flamboyant, quasi-gothic outfit. Dam, I can't imagine not being loved, even if I was most people's least favorite, I was still loved. I consider myself lucky all things considered.
Orin comes across as a teenager I thought. Suspended adolescence maybe?
That's possible! I'm not entirely sure how old she's supposed to be, other than just adult. I could easily see her being in her 20s or so.
It didn't occur to me the misogynistic view with Orin and now I feel so bad! I played a male Dark Urge and joked about the pre-amnesia time being “me and the boys” (Gortash, Ketheric, and my male Durge) 😅
asdasdf omg the boys taking over the world for their gods.
Sarevok did nothing in bhaal name in the past, he wanted to become the new lord of murder.
Orin is literally my favorite character next to Wyll.
Did anyone notice that in the normal playthrough, Orin's room has a dead, pale dragonborn next to her bed? Yup. The Dark Urge exists even in the normal route, and was betrayed by Orin , BUT they died in the process... Makes you wonder if the normal, "Tav" character is dead or unaffiliated in the adventure during the Dark Urge playthrough... 🤔
The prequel adventure "Blood in Baldur's Gate" (an online cooperative RPG played in your browser, released before BG3) has you play as Tav who is investigating murders in the city. You even meet Valeria in your investigation. Canonically, you are murdered in the sewers by a dragonborn sorcerer, the culprit behind the murders, as their fiendish butler watches with glee.
So yeah, Tav is one of many dead bodies under Durge's belt in a Durge playthrough.
In BG2 Sarevok's story is about discovering himself without being a Baalspawn. So it's kinda disappointing to see him revert to being unambiguously evil.
I headcanon that, since in BG3 Sarevok states that Bhaal resurrected him, but in BG2 it is explicitly stated that Gorion's Ward and his party resurrect Sarevok without any of his Bhaalspawn blood, it was actually TWO Sarevoks. Hear me out.
The Sarevok that the Ward resurrected was like a Redeemed Durge whom Withers resurrected, a man without the inherited dark urge left to make his own destiny. He went on to live a troubled life but was ultimately redeemed by the Ward. Eventually he moved back to his hometown to bury his lost love, as is said in his ending, and maybe even died since he was a mercenary or perhaps to natural causes and was taken to the Fugue Planes as he was godless.
But that entire time, his Bhaalspawn blood remained in the Hells until about a century later, after Gorion's Ward was killed and the last of the Bhaalspawn were wiped out. This resurrected Bhaal (as is canon) and he went to work on his perfect child to become his Chosen and later his Avatar. Bhaal conceived the Dark Urge, his perfect spawn. He resurrected the Bhaal-blood of Sarevok from the Hells and resurrected it to serve as the master of the Murder Tribunal. The tainted blood was formed into an incarnation of Sarevok dedicated to murder, and was without any character development from his travels with the Ward, only having vague memories of that redemption. This evil Sarevok was wholly loyal to Bhaal, unlike the true Sarevok as we know him in BG1 who was only using his Bhaalist powers for his personal gain. He is more akin to an Echo like the ghosts of The Five (antagonists of BG2) whom now serve him in Bhaal's Murder Tribunal. Jaheira and Minsc have no idea that this Sarevok now is all the evil blood they originally left out when he was resurrected, so they are left to think their former redeemed ally had went back to the dark path.
This, of course, is all headcanon as the truth is WotC canonized the very dodgy novels that killed off the redeemed Sarevok and then later mandated Larian to include legacy characters like Sarevok despite canonizing his death... lmao
Just wanted to say this video was really nice and feeds my current bg3 addiction well and you have such a heartwarming laugh/giggle, I just wanted to point that out
Orin is my silly murder hobo fantasy. Sometimes I’m just so tried and going apeshit is a vibe. I’m making a murder hobo oc for them to commit murder together and be sadistic. This OC is the epitome of my urges from “I make art cuz murder is wrong”
I find it funny when you meet Orin in the sewers you can immediatly tell it is her if you make headgear invisible
Orin is Forgetten Realms' version of Harley Quinn.
As someone who fought a lot of bhaalspawn at Saravok’s side, I was disappointed that he went full monster in BG 3
Oooh, that's so interesting. This is making me so excited to try out the older games though!
Tbh, its not Sarevok we knew. If you ask him, how the hell he is alive, he will mention that a lesser bhaalspawn summoned "Sarevoks shadow" to posess this vessel. In essence, this not exactly the og Sarevok, but unholy abomination influenced by some pricks idea of who Sarevok was.
@@fedorustimenko3057 So it's basically a persona of Sarevok, then? Kinda like in the Persona games?
I can’t believe I haven’t seen your videos before. Screw the algorithm. Love these in depth analyses! Going to binge this channel while I’m finishing up my HM play through. Thanks for the videos!
How to grant Orin the chance of redemption: 🤕🔨
would you consider doing a video on sarevok, if you’ve played the first two games? larian did him so dirty. he used to be one of the best written evil characters. he was intelligent and had a very interesting backstory. he was able to have a redemption arc as well if his sibling (the player character) showed him an ounce of love and care. i adore bg3 but not how they handled sarevok unfortunately.
You actually Can find Orin in your camp as the imposter, if you take enough Long Rests.
Orin's shapeshifting always took me by surprise, especially the one in camp...I had no idea
Do you think that Orin could have potentially had a redemption like the Dark Urge if she had been the one betrayed and tadpoled?
I'm honestly not sure! I'd like to think so? If that's the story that Larian wanted to tell, then I think it'd be possible. But I've had people tell me that since she's a changeling, morality is very different for her.
It’s not canon whatsoever,but I’m doing a redemption durge run as Orin lmao. Just for my own satisfaction.
@@PocketLeaves
They're wrong. Changelings do have a generally human mindset and whatever differences they have are mostly a reaction to being able to shapeshift at will.
Finally, A Lady Demitrescu Examination!
wait
22:40 I personally never saw it like that but I could 100% believe that there was some form of a relationship there but that both sides valued their gods over this personal attachment.
I'm here late, BUT, I have a very dumb add-on. So Orin a product of....what you said in the video. And when you are a...product, you have a higher chance of developing all sorts of health issues. I think the reason her eyes are so cloudy is because her vison isn't actually great due to a birth defect. In terms of genetics, we see this a lot in cats who have poor genes. They develop hearing and seeing issues when their gene pool is poor, and in terms of cats, this happens most often in cats with white fur. Orin is both pale and blonde (not quite albino) but she's close to it. I'm sure this might have not been intentional, but I'd like to think so.
She's a changeling, their canonical appearance is just like that (cloudy white eyes, light hair, pale skin, etc.) As far as we see, she didn't inherit any visible issues from her consanguineous parentage, unless you count her insanity, which could just be from her upbringing.
i know what it's like to love a father figure with your whole being but to never be enough for them. to never be what they actually want. i get it orin, i really do.
i genuinely live for these videos
Hi, I had a great time listening to you here. Honestly I know Orin from Minthara's perspective only and because I love Minthara I have no compassion for Orin xd. I am on my second playthrough and planning to kill Orin without mercy again for she seems nothing more than bloody psychopath at this moment but after you video I promise to start my next run as Dark Urge and TRY to understand this lady's motivations and story without prejudice. Always great to find out something new and get deeper into the lore of this amaing game.
The theory I came up with, given my own Dirge character, was that Bhaal manipulated Helena into going after the Durge after she failed to dispose of Orin. Bhaal whispered there was another option for her, encouraging Helena to seek out & kidnap their preferred chosen. Thus forcing them into a 1-on-1 duel between Bhaalspawn. Because of the challenge right, succeeding in beating Helena awakens the Durge's Bhaal-blood, and they turn. At least partly against their own will. If you're a resist Durge, then absolutely against your will. If an embrace, then initially resistant, if only out of confusion. This also creates a bond of resentment between Orin and her "cousin", because of her complicated feelings about her mom. As for Orin, Bhaal prefers the Durge over her not because of any gender coding, but because Orin's acts of worship involve things that have no place in his church. Like you said, Orin's "projects" are offerings of love and adoration- artistic expressions- things that have nothing to do with Bhaal, and are thus tainting his offerings. Which is why Bhaal is so keen on getting their original Durge back under their control. Because Orin's attack, coupled with their own resistance and a convenient brain tadpole, allowed them to break free of Bhaal's influence.
As a person with borderline personality disorder i can see we share something in common :( and i felt so much compassion after talking to her mum's corpse. Bruh, what a fucked up family when you're always not enough
I didn't really care about the other two, but Orin just seems so damaged and hurt. You don't get that crazy from just being born. It's her whole upbringing. Most of the other evil characters became corrupted or made a choice to be evil. Orin was born into a "family" that didn't care for her and originally planned to just use her as a sacrifice. She's loyal to Bhaal the entire time, doing everything expected of her, but the whole time she was never going to be good enough. I really wish Larian made some way of reaching her, or at least making her see the reality of her situation.
I've had Orin in camp as Lae'zel try to convince you to let her end yenna the orphan
Amazing work as always! however you did miss something with her impersonating your companions. I Don't know what triggers it but I know most the time I've seen the cutscene it's been in the elf song. But she will impersonate one of your companions doing something terrible to terrorize you before revealing herself. Lae'zel is threatening Yenna iirc. Minthara will say she killed another companion in self defense and that you and her are going to have to fight off the other companions because they lump you two together. Halsin will go wild and look like he hurt Scratch (he's actually okay). Gale will freak out and act like he's blowing himself up. I think Yenna kills the cat if it's her
I have finished the game 4 times, and have never seen her do that, so I wasn't aware of that until reading these comments! I really need to figure out how to get those scenes to trigger
@@PocketLeavesIf you take all companions that are Orin's potential hostages (Halsin, Gale and Lae'Zel; if Minthara is also present, the leftover companion will always be the hostage). That way, Yenna will be the hostage, and all your companions are available.
As for Orin; I don't know. I don't see her as my Durge's sister, never did. I get the impression that Durge is more sibling like with Sarevok than Orin, being that both Durge and Sarevok seems created by Bhaal himself, while Orin was made in a more traditional manner if not in the most natural genetic fashion.
I saw this video a while ago but didn't look it up because I wanted to finish the game a few times. I forgot about for a time then the video pops up in my recommend and after checking this our you got style. Good on you for having your own opinions and even if I don't ship the same I at least can understand where your coming from. I enjoyed the murder art's and crafts way of explaining how Orin go about things and can totally get on bored with that take. Now I'm off to check out more from this channel now that I found it again.
Ask yourself why "misogyny" is dismissed by a lot of gamers these days. Perhaps because it's been repeatedly misused for the last 10+ years since GG1?
I mean, saying Orin is good at what she does is a bit of a stretch. She's probably the worst changeling ever and she gets caught up in the frenzy too easily.
The way Scleritas describes her murder attempt on the Durge makes it clear that she suceeded pretty much because Durge didn't think much of her to begin with.
All three chosen seem like lost children without Durge. Orin is a child who cannot control herself, Gortash is literally Elon Musk and Ketheric is an old-ass LARPER.
Your Baldur’s gate videos are so good 😩
when you said "minthara" in an orin video and that everyone loves her too if they love orin I had bo choice but to subscribeeeeeee 🧚♀That aside, great video! I loved how deep you were actually digging into her personality
man this made me realize that if you ignore the murder part that orin is an extremely relatable character and that i might kin her
yet another amazing video
Quit giggling, it's way too adorable for me and makes me want to like you more.
Orin and bhaal’s love languages just don’t match lol
I wish there was a different, and happy ending for her and some villains (other chosens etc) too.
BABE WAKE UP NEW POCKET LEAVES VIDEO JUST DROPPED 🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️
Good video, voiced a lot of thoughts I've had about Orin as well 🙌
One of my favorite theories for Orin is that she is unintentionally the true hero of the game, for a good run, because of her jealousy, she does what she does to Durge, and sets the motion for the failure of the Dead Three HAHAHAHA
I mean, that's just true. Especially if you play as redeemed durge!
while i personally believe the misogyny theory for orin's religious trauma adds SO MUCH depth, it is worth noting that because orin's race IS changeling, she technically is unisex and as a child probably took on *some* features from helena. changelings are generally just like genderless mannequins because of their doppelganger heritage. defo makes sense tho that she kind of leans on the helena-esque form as almost a sub-conscious way of coping.
yess ive been waiting for this!!
awesome make up too omg
The tragedy is that fucking 11 hit shields holy shit
Just beat her today, I strongly agree
My warlock Emrys hated fighting Orin. Both of them have similar backgrounds. Her parents intended to kill her . She's pretty much his reflection in a cracked mirror. She's trapped in the darkness. Whereas he's found the light.
As much as I feel bad for Orin's past she still scares the absolute shit out of me. Every time she shows up on screen I close my legs. tense up, and remain like that for a little bit even after she leaves. The last time a fictional character did that to me was in AtLA with Koh the Face Stealer.
Also I don't see the other Bhaalspawns hating on Orin because she is a woman. I see it more as them finding any reason to hate on her because she was supposed to be the offering, not the Assassin.
i can fix her
You can actually meet her in camp before you know who she kidnapped. idk what triggers it but I've had it happen in more than one playthrough
Yeah, killing Orin made me feel like a jackhole at the end there.