Best Way To Store Large Amounts of Bitcoin (Multi-Sig)
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- Опубліковано 26 сер 2024
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The Best Ways To Store Small and Medium Amounts of Bitcoin:
• The Best Ways To Store...
In this video, I discuss the best way to store large amounts of Bitcoin.
Hot wallets on your phone are fine for up to a few hundred dollars. After that, you'll probably want to graduate to using a hardware wallet (single-sig) for amounts up to about $10,000.
For larger amounts of Bitcoin, my favorite storage solution is multi-sig (multi-signature, where you need multiple keys to move your Bitcoin). These keys/hardware wallets can be stored in a geographically dispersed way, which renders home attacks ineffective.
With collaborative custody multi-sig, a company like Casa or Unchained Capital holds one or more of your keys. They do not hold enough keys to move your Bitcoin on their own, but just enough to help you out in case you lose one or more keys.
With 2/3 multi-sig, you need 2 signatures to move your Bitcoin. With 3/5 multi-sig, you need 3 signatures to move your Bitcoin.
Consider using different vendors for each of your hardware wallets (Trezor, Blockstream Jade, Coldcard), in order to guard against a single-vendor attack.
Collaborative custody is great for beginners, but as you become a more serious Bitcoiner and don't want to leak privacy or compromise your personal security, it makes more sense to set up DIY multi-vendor multi-sig, which I discuss in the following 2 paid lectures:
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Not investment advice! Consult a financial advisor.
Unchained Capital multi-sig:
unchained.com/...
unchained.com/...
Casa Keys multi-sig:
keys.casa/
keys.casa/how-...
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![MultiSig is NOT the best option for most people to store their bitcoin [June 2023]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/sjS5qF65Yos/mqdefault.jpg)
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i am 14 and learning trading i am reading your book thats how i came to your channel
$40 million? I once saw a film where Einstein is explaining Relativity with great enthusiasm to this guy. Someone asked the guy if he understood Relativity. The guy replied that he is 100% certain that Einstein understands it completely. Mr Kratter, I am certain you believe that bitcoin will go to $40 mill or thereabouts. When BTC gets anywhere near that amount, I am coming over to personally thank you and bring you the best bottles of Slovenian wine! BTW, I have converted my wife and our two kids to think only in bitcoin. Many thanks! 🙏🏽
It's a deal-- I look forward to trying Slovenian wine :)
Try the orange one, which goes perfect with Bitcoin!
Orange juice for me 😊
if you use multi sig, where do you store the seed words for recovery? in two places? in the same place? if you store them in the same place then it defeats the point of multisig. if you hide them in two places, you have to trust the security of two places instead of one. sounds overly complex to me. one coldcard, with seedphrase, is completely secure and safe and easy to manage. for me this set up is preferable to multisig and i am particularly paranoid.
Great video. This is definitely a little more complicated but is necessary for me to learn. Thanks!
Isn't there government risk that both ColdCard and Jade are located in Canada? Would it not be better to regionally disperse your hardware wallets when considering multisig?
Hey Matthew,
Thanks for all these videos. I am in the process of purchasing my first Trezor wallet.
Congrats! Make sure you buy it directly from Trezor, and not a 3rd party seller or used.
If you're buying the Trezor One model which is the cheaper one make sure you get the case for an extra $12 because if you drop that Trezor accidentally like I did the screen is toast not sure about the Trezor Model T as I don't own one.
Could you please add timestamps for longer videos please? Thank you.
I was also recommended to watch that Myst video - what a classic from the 90's. That game blew my mind as a kid.
Why not just set up a passphrase so a 25th or 13th Word and describe it in a way only you know what the word is? Nobody can use your key then even if they find it
What's the difference between a 12 and 24-word seed? And what about wallets that use a passphrase on top of the seed?
I recommend reading the article "How nearly all personal hardware wallet multisig setups are insecure" before taking multisig into consideration!
GOOD MORNING MATHEW,.. I'M IN TEXAS FOR 3 WEEKS,... MUCH BETTER THAN CALIFORNIA NOW.👍
Yes, I love Texas.
For everything gained, something is lost...property taxes high in texas...😞
I don't know if multi-sig is a good idea. It's a bit too complicated for what it provides. AFAIK Microstrategy hardware wallets are not multisig, for example (I maybe wrong on that one?)
Couldnt you employ the same multi-sig idea to a single sig wallet? You could hold ur wallet with you, but the pin/passphrase/seed is stored at another geo location. In that scenario, it's impossible for ur attacker to get ur btc. Will they believe you dont have the pin? Again, it's the same as the multi-sig, they arent going to leave with ur btc whether they believe u or not. This wont prevent them from shooting you either, but neither will having a multi-sig. Strictly from a "you can't get my bitcoin" point of view, u could operate ur single sig that way.
Multi sig offers a diversity of risk as you can use different brands of wallets and wallet types (hot and cold)
Plus you can sleep knowing you don't have a single point of failure
If someone can get your seed, your wallet is compromised (unless you keep most funds on a passphrase protected wallet)
A passphrase is good, but where do you keep your passprase? Is it just kept in your mind? If so, what if you forget it, lose memory?
At that point, it might be easier to just go with multisig
Casa makes it easy, but some disadvantages of it are in the video
What if the 3dr party goes out of business? And you lose one of your cold wallet…? Can you replace the 3rd party by another one ???
Thank you for the great info! One question if I may? Could each of the multi-sig keys be used to as single-sig to create honey-pot wallets as means of plausible deniability?
Yes, definitely. A hardware wallet can hold BTC in single sig, while simultaneously being able to be part of a multisig quorum
alternative:
encode seed phrase in 3 parts a way that each part have 2/3 of seed phrase and 1/3 of junk phrase that only owner know it, And store them in diffrent locations
@ 08:31 this is when they take a hostage to get you do all of the traveling....
If ur choosing to do multi sig urself - I understand that ur buying 3 different hardware wallets but what I’m not understanding is are u breaking up the bitcoin u have into the 3 wallets ? Or is there a multi sig option at initial wallet setup? Thank u
The bitcoin is still whole. Remember your wallet doesn't hold the btc as it is only a digital entry on a ledger but instead holds your access to it. Using multisig and using multiple hardware wallets just means you introduce multiple steps before your private key can sign off on those btc.
Problem with this approach is that to mitigate against a home invasion, you yourself must give up ease of spending the large part of your BTC largesse. This assumes that you have no way to get 2 of 3 at any given time. Would the robber necessarily believe that as a bitcoiner you don’t have immediate access to all your btc? Seems a little counter to the BTC philosophy which for some might include immediate spend access (without geographic separation between key locations).
Yes, these are always the trade-offs: security, privacy, convenience, etc. Serious Bitcoiners like myself are all using multi-sig, and are not planning to spend any BTC in our lifetime. Criminals need to understand this.
@@Bitcoin_University …fair enough Matthew. Nonetheless, I hope the immediate access problem eventually gets solved somehow with process and/or technology because this will likely hamper adoption a little. Cheers and thanks for the awesome content you’re creating!
If you're a hodler you wouldn't want to spend often
Robbers aren't the main threat for most... the main threat is single point of failure wallets
@@HolbrookStark No worries, I can respect that. I don't judge anyone for what they do with their Bitcoin. It's freedom money.
One option which to me seems practical to more "public" figures (or people with larger friend networks who know about your coin holdings) would be to have a sacrificial wallet. It seems like a horrible option but if forced to chose between a bullet in the head and a loss of some small amount of coins, it would be the lesser-worse option.
This sounds very similar to what the Bitkey wallet by Jack Dorsey does.
I understand the benefits of a hardware wallet. Curious your thoughts on setting up a 3/5 multi-sig wallet using BlueWallet mobile app with 5 separate people in an org. Benefits: no cost vs hardware wallet, convenience of mobile access, and enhanced security via dispersed keys. Downsides?
how are you verifying receive addresses if two of your hardware wallet are at distant locations?
Can u talk about electrum multi sig solution?
Could you comment or make a video on the multi-sig solutions being offered by Muun and Blockstream?
Why do you need to make such an effort to hide your hardware wallets safely. Isn't it better to just wipe them, then restore with seed phrase when you need to access your coins?
This was a great explanation. Thanks. What is your opinión on the Nano X hardware wallet?
Hi Matthew. I’ve recently discovered that popular exchanges are no longer accepting “tainted/mixed” BTC for deposit and conversion to USD, or accepted for any of their borrowing/lending products. Are we all going to end up (effectively) converting our BTC to useless “paperweights” by coinjoining them?
I'm subscribed and so glad I found your channel. Wondering if you have any thoughts on Richard Heart and HEX and if you'd consider doing a video about it?
You never mention ledgers for wallets. Do you dislike them? What’s your opinion? Are they not good?
thanks, what do you think of cold card? heard trezor is no bueno now for some reason...thanks again!
What would be the risk of keeping a large amount of Bitcoin in a single sign cold storage?
I wish Matthew explained why a cold storage like Trezor is not good enough for a large sum
@@worldclassjud2243 Well it can get hacked for its PIN if a thief steals the physical device:
ua-cam.com/video/dT9y-KQbqi4/v-deo.html
@@butmunchass Thank you for the video link. So the reason I don't want a lot of money on a hardwallet is because some one can hack into my physical device. I'm still not sold on multisig though. I'm not exactly a tech savvy person. Id' rather setup a well-hidden self destruction box using a timer and acid bath. or something like that.
@@worldclassjud2243
Good luck!
I don't like multisig either but it does have it's use cases.
I'd suggest caution that you can shoot yourself in the foot if you get too 'exotic' with homemade 'destructive devices' solutions.
@@worldclassjud2243 Trazor wallet can be hacked.
Hi Matt...with a 24 word seed there is more security but on the otherhand isnt there a greater probability of a mishap?
Which do you think is better, 12 or 24?
24 because 12 is easier to compromise
24
Debate me
Okay I'm struggling for a while now on this topic about hardware wallets, seedphrases, passphrases, multi sig, etc. Let me lay down the advantages and disadvantages as I see it, of all these different solutions here. I'm hoping this way I start a discussion among us about everything I am or we are missing here and what would be best practice for different Bitcoiners.
I think multiple hardware wallets does not scale as I agree with Matthew that you eventually maybe have +10 hardware wallets all with relatively small funds or +10 seed phrases, making it very complicated while there is a better solution in that case which is I think Multi sig.
So I compare the following 3 as I see it (please think with me) using 1, 2 or 3 x’s (couldn’t use stars) as rating (3 is most optimal, 1 is less optimal):
1. Hardware wallet + Seed Phrase VS
2. Hardware wallet + Seedphrase + Passphrase (more possible ways to do this but I would say: Passphrase stored savely and seperately from seed phrase but easy rememberable, 1 or 2 words outside bip or short sentence storing the bulk behind passphrase and the smaller part behind seedphrase) VS
3. Hardware wallet(s) + Multi sig
My point here is, I would feel really almost as safe (maybe unrightfully, please debate me) with a hardware wallet + passphrase with way less user error and more agility compared to multi sig.
This passphrase you could in my opinion perfectly store in a bank deposit box, I think of it as like the third party in the multi sig solution. Or you could give it to trusted family member(s).
I hear some people don't worry at all about $5 wrench attack then maybe you could store the passphrase and seedphrase together and still protect yourself from brute force.
Something I have also been thinking of but probably missing out on some things here is the following: store the full seed phrase in a bank deposit box and keep the passphrase with you somewhere safe or even in multiple locations/with multiple people. This would make heritage easier. Plus you're more agile (also depending on where you want to store the hardware wallet).
And I would also like to ask all of you. What would be the risk of having a hardware wallet with one vendor like Trezor. I understand you have to be careful with malware, as you should probably be careful with that all over the internet. And I understand that there could be a danger if you are not running your own node and you're probably using that of Trezor. So what would be the exact danger of Trezor possibly becoming a bad actor in the future?
Sorry UA-cam seem to not let me post the whole text
Matthew, thank you for what is truly useful information to help us avoid making catastrophic mistakes! Question: If I use my recovery seed from a single sig h/w wallet on another manufacture's h/w wallet, will I see my BTC there? Thanks again!
PS - I bought BS Jade and Trezor's basic version both direct from the manufacturers
Yes.
Thank you Matt. What indicators are you following to get into Momentum stock trading and when do you see crypto bull run picking up again?
It all depends on the Fed, at this point. I'm watching Fed tea leaves, not chart indicators for this.
Thanks! Very great info as always!!
I know you advise against a ledger; however, my brother got me one earlier this year and it has been used as my first HWW. Would you say it's fine to have as one of the three multi-sig wallets in a 2/3 set-up that you discuss? Thanks for the video and insight.
Probably too late to answer but for future people who look at my reply to this comment, it is much better not to risk it. Dont use ledger for your multi-sig.
what are your thoughts on the bitbox?
Great video - whats the difference between shamir and multi sig Matt?
Does it make a difference using 3 coldcards
Thank you for sharing your knowledge
Thank You for this information. Great vid.
There is such a demand for someone who understands all of this and who can teach it to people a well as the military trains its soldiers. They can teach dumb and smart alike.
Multi-Sig doesn't make sense to me. Now I have to secure three seeds, which increases the chance of losing one. And yes, if I lose one, I can still recover with the other two. But what if I lose two? And if I use a collaborative multi-sig with a company, then I still have to secure two seeds. I prefer multi-sig for poor people: 12 words + passphrase. I can store 12 words somewhere secure and remember them at the same time. Much harder with two or three seeds. Also, I can choose my passphrase, which makes it practically unbreakable with enough entropy, and I can remember it easily because I choose it. Just my two sats
Multisig is better for $5 wrench attacks. I'm probably a more public Bitcoiner than you, so this is something that I have to worry about. Otherwise, I agree with much of your comment.
@@Bitcoin_University fair enough 👍🏽 for companies it also makes a lot of sense
When do you think you'll convert to a taproot multisig?
Hey Matthew also maybe you can do a review of the arduous cold storage? It seems like it’s maybe a multi component option to use in your multi Sigg lineup?
Can Bitcoin price go negative on an exchange just as oil did last year ?
The thing about multi sig is that your are still requiring trust... meaning you need a third party to move your bitcoin. Yes I understand the benefit but doesn't it defeat the purpose? We want independence from a third party permission to use our bitcoin or so I thought.
Under collaborative custody, you are still holding 2 out of 3 keys, and so can move your BTC without their permission. Their key is more of a backup for you. In DIY, you control all 3 keys.
What do you think of the ngrave zero
To alleviate the paranoia (rightfully so but just to alleviate it), do not try to solve tomorrow's problem with today's technology. If and when Bitcoin actually goes to say $100k or more, there are bound to be better technology to help with the protection of the private keys or at the least other custodian technologies to help out in a multisig scenario.
Hi Matt any experience with exodus lightning wallet?
With a company like Casa do they only hold one of the three sets of keys?
My future self will watch this video when he has this problem.
I guess it's time to learn how to code, so I can code my own node and wallet.
Do you get a certificate for the courses on Trader University?
it would be nice if this is edited for newcomers..
Cheers matt for exposing yourself in the name of helping people 🙏
think in gonna checkout Unchained! thanks Matt...
Hello Matthew and all, if using a multisig collaborative custody host such as unchained, what advantage is there in depositing bitcoin into the wallet set up with the host, as opposed to using one of the h/w wallets within the user's possession?
What I mean is if I possessed two of the h/w wallets and use unchained as the 3rd wallet: why would I put the funds in the unchained wallet, for them to see, vs. depositing to one of the h/w wallets? Or is this the only way multisig hosting works?
Question- Setting up multisig Vault asks me to log in to my hardware device to "export my PUBLIC key." If I'm logged into my hardware device (entered the pin), how do I know there's no ledger back door, so to speak, where I unwittingly export my 24-word seedphrase? Did you do it this way too or find another way to get the custodian to have your public key?
Exporting your public key is fine, but I wouldn't use a Ledger at all, because their firmware is still closed source
@@Bitcoin_University You wouldn't even trust to use it as 1 of 2 keys (other being a trezor) you control along with custodian? I really don't want to waste the money I spent on the stupid thing
Hi Matthew - thanks for this helpful video again!
Can I ask if there is a reason you haven't mentioned Ledger Nano S/X hardware wallets?
Thanks in advance!
Ledger has not done a good job of preventing personal data hacks, and their hardware wallet software is not open source, and so could contain malware. I would avoid Ledger at all costs.
decrypt.co/52118/hacked-ledger-database-dumped-on-raidforums
@@Bitcoin_University Oh wow didn't know that 😳 thank you so much!!!
@@Bitcoin_University
If you have a Ledger your PIN is better protected as the code is closed source.
Trezor's open source code is used by this hacker to recover the PIN from a Trezor whose owner had forgotten the PIN:
ua-cam.com/video/dT9y-KQbqi4/v-deo.html
Crap.. I hav a Ledger. Perhaps it’s still a safe option if I do multi dig?
@Bitcoin_University this comment proved to be prescient.
ways to recover your vault? if let say i have 2 out of 3 and loose 2 of them?
'Lose' 2 of your key backups (including Mult-Sig derivation path), . . . . Game Over Man
It's interesting to regret mentioning you hold bitcoin. I totally understand that, but the other side of the coin is that you regret not mentioning it. This is a regret because NOBODY gets to actually know you or your real interests if your totally absorbed into BTC like I am. I have lived 6 years "in the closet" and it's not a good place to be at all. People find I often have furrowed eyebrows.
What's wrong with ledger?
They got hacked a while back so if you had ordered from their website than the hackers got your name, email, home address, etc.
People that purchased Ledgers got threatening emails telling them to send them BTC or they would be attacked, etc.
Although if you do have a Ledger because it's closed source it's not as easy to hack for it's PIN as it the Trezor:
ua-cam.com/video/dT9y-KQbqi4/v-deo.html
I feel the same paranoia
How is a hardware wallet self custody if the hardware wallet is it's own company? Your still trusting a 3rd party ..... wtf
btc mag bro was talkin a bunch of mess about trezor, some privacy issue.
Is 3 Bitcoin a large amount?
It should be measured relative to your own net worth. So it's not a lot if you are a billionaire. If you make $60k per year and don't have a lot of savings, it's definitely a lot.
What’s wrong with keeping above $10,000 on a Trezor?
Trezor not safe . . can be hacked .
Lol telling a website how much you own.
U are genius
DIY multi-sig avoids this privacy leak.
Best way to store bitcoin profits is gold and silver.
Gold has underperformed for a decade, during a period of the most US money printing ever. It has failed to preserve even basic purchasing power.
Allocated metals can be stolen...keeping it in household can be foolish. All one big tradeoff. Nice balance of assets for sure...
Multi-sig should also mean having a couple Sig sauers to chose from, or multi-glock
ua-cam.com/video/uIWJBAcZk5E/v-deo.html
Update.. don't use Trezor or Ledger!
Dude thats drama. Go find oit trezpr is still ok its only hackable of they gain access to your physical hardware. Ledger asks you if you wanna opt into their seed backip program. Only dangerous if the gov issues a subpoena to get uses who bought ledger. Stop drama 🛑 ✋
I keep mine under my pillow I hope the Tooth Fairy doesn't take it
The problem with multi Sig is that if a company was co-opted by a government, they could just make that company not give you the other half of your signature locking you out of your wallet.
That's not how it works. If you are doing 2/3 multisig and holding 2 of the 3 keys, you can move your Bitcoin without that company's help.
Sold all my Bitcoin only
Have altcoins now
HFSP
Doesn't look like that aged well...
And this is why banks will always exist. Why the F would I do with the keys? These suggestions can all easily be exploited why too much work. Ill just buy the ETF.
My comments aren't coming through for some reason :/
This comment came through fine.
@@Bitcoin_University I think it is a UA-cam issue... could you check your Twitter DMs btw please?
Hodler is pronounced hoe-dler vs hod-ler because the true form of the word is hold, with the o pronounced like hoe. Hodl is a stupid unnecessary made-up word anyway as the words hold and holder do just fine, so there was no need to switch letters to begin with.
Cant imagine anyone has had their BTC stolen from a physical break into their house & the robber has successfully transferred the BTC out of the account? But would love to know if so! Could imagine a crazy X Girlfriend doing that though.
I mean maybe it’s because I’m in bed with Covid, but I can’t figure out for the life of me how two different cold wallets can be used together to form one signature. How do you set up multi Sigg with two different companies? Maybe that’s the piece that I’m missing