Latin Mass and Reverent Novus Ordo | Side by Side
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- Опубліковано 21 бер 2023
- Here's a sequel that compares the 7th Sunday after Pentecost to the 7th Sunday in Ordinary time and it's a nitpicked example of one of the best NOs you can find. Fr. Chad Ripperger FSSP was assigned to the Church on the right for a time just to celebrate the TLM while the Pastor of the Church celebrated the NO.
If you want to support me: www.buymeacoffee.com/NicklasS - Ігри
The two forms should look identical. Unfortunately in most cases, they're not. I like this comparison. It's very balanced and honest.
My priest celebrates the NO much more reverently than even the NO here, for example Latin, and not facing the people even at the chair. But still I have to agree that the TLM is beautiful, after going to the TLM for a 2 years I wish it wouldn’t have been taken away.
Would love to see a comparison between the TLM and the NO at St John Cantius
That's a great idea, I love what the Canons are doing there!
"and not facing the people even at the chair"
Just wondering, does he face the people when he says "The Lord be with you" at the introductory rites and and when he invites the people to acknowledge their sins? In this instance, he is directly talking to the people, and I believe he is supposed to face them.
@@francisobi6851 Watch the video again, in the NO the priest is facing the people even for the creed.
@@CatholicNicklas Well that's probably a bit unnecessary on the priest's part but it's whatever.
@@francisobi6851 In my instance, He faces the people for the Dominus Vobiscum, and the readings. Not in other instances besides the Orate Fratres.
Tears. I cannot believe we abandoned what we had. There is no comparison.
This is exactly what I was thinking as I left my very first traditional Latin mass two weeks ago. And I was in tears.
Same. 💯
It was planned by the enemies of the church. Read the Alta Vendita, it is the masonic plan for the subversion of the Catholic church. And if you read "AA 1025" you'll see how it was possibly done.
I cannot express how much I appreciate it when priests do the NO mass almost like the Latin mass and they do it ad orientum so revereantly. However there is a deeper more important distinction between the two that people miss. There is a deeper Catholic theology that is in the Latin mass which had been taken out of the new mass. At least 80% of the prayers and words said in the Latin Kass had been removed from the New Mass. The Reverant NO mass is absolutely valid and holy, but it's still short of the Latin Mass. Now if you don't have access to a Latin mass but there is a reverant NO mass, still go and be with Christ.
I need 52 signs of the cross! 1 for each week of the month in the year :D
If communion in the hand was banned and the laity were no longer permitted to distribute communion the Novus Ordo would be much improved.The Novus Ordo can be offered with great beauty and reverence.If you watch how the new President of the USCCB Archbishop Broglio offers mass that is a good example.Many younger priests are working to offer the mass with more beauty and reverence.Sadly though such masses are still few and far between in parishes.We are still singing “On Eagles Wings” and “Gift of finest wheat”.Many churches still use guitars at mass.etc.
Keep making these videos man
One thing I think people fail to realize was before the 2nd vatican council tridentine masses were nowhere as reverently said as they are now. There is a pretty obvious reason this is because the people that go to a TLM choose to and love it, the people that sing there come for singing the mass and there is much more people so much better singing. people that go to a Novus Ordo mass half of them in america barely believe. They go there to meet up with there buddies after and barely care. The pre vatican ii tridentine mass was the same reverence as a novus ordo mass now.
Yes it took some time for me to come to that realization. I used to believe that if all the parishes in the U.S. just switched back to the TLM, then everything would be perfect... I no longer believe that. the TLM of 2024 is the most reverent form because it is placed on a pedestal. If it was the Mass that every parish had, it would be the norm and the reverence would be lost.
My parish has a good Norvus Ordo. I serve that Mass every single week as a 52 year old altar server.
That preist is still performing traditional mass with a native a tongue this is what Novus Ordus should be
Not really, read the two missals side by side, the NO is not just a translated TLM.
Can you do reverent Novus Ordo along side a reverent Episcopal, so we can see how they are almost identical?
Episcopal parishes that use the English missal will look more identical to the TLM
Do a Novus Ordo alongside a Lutheran service?
@@timothymacdonnell9079 The same thing
NO vs Lutheran service would be a real eye opener for a lot of people...unless you're of the opinion that it's a GOOD thing we're like our "separated breatheren".
@@williamofdallasSt Timothy Fort Worth for example
St. Peter Catholic Church in Omaha, NE is just such a parish. It's a nice blend of 1962 Era and New Mass. The Communion Rail has been restored for daily and Sunday Mass. Latin hymns prevail for the most part and I consider it a good compromise between new and old. The parishioner size has steadily increased these past ten years and it's NOT in suburbia or new neighborhoods.
I wish people would actually chant the NO, I can’t find a parish in the entire United States that goes all out. No one is chanting the cannon and using multiple deacons and chanting the readings
Just subscribed
Final match: St. John Cantius 1965 Missal vs. St. John Cantius Latin 2002 Missal
me being hispanic and not knowing either of them . XD
Same bro. Haha
Your channel is spectacular. Can you reveal your age?
If only Vatican 2 or Paul VI think about this we wouldn't have a mess to fix
@SanctusPaulus-ic5gl yes until you realized versus propulum was the actual thing recommend in Vatican 2
what is the purpose of reading the holy gospel in latin and facing the tabernacle? Who is he reading the gospel to? The gospel was given by God to its people, but here it is delivered to the wall, and also in a language that the people doesn't understand. I appreciate the tridentine mass, but in this aspect i think that the NO mass is far more appropiate.
Just the fact that you say both "facing the tabernacle" and "delivered to the wall" shows how much education catholics have lost since vatican ii. 😢
@@katepurnell1389 Yeah right... I said "delivered to the wall" because God doesn't need to be taught its own words; it's the opposite: God talks to its people. The whole purpose of the readings is that the common layman can have a proper understanding of the Scripture, that's why Saint Hieronymus translated the Bible not to classical but common latin (it's called VULGATA for a reason).
Ok, maybe then the priest reads the epistle and the gospel again in english during the homily... But what's the point of that? Damm, I even know some priests who celebrate vetus ordo but read the vernacular version of the bible; even they recognize it's more appropiate.
You don’t need the priest to face you to read out of your missal
On Sundays I usually attend a NO done in a better way than this. The TLM is still superior.
That's an opinion. The lack of Old Testament readings and the highly abbreviated lectionary is a real failing from my point of view. I go to a NO that's considerably better than this one. I'm not sure why this was picked as the alleged "exemplary one" - they've done a good job, but it is no St. John Cantius.
Unfortunately there are still female lectors, communion in the hand, etc
The worst: female acolytes, at the beginning they were not allowed
What church is to the left?
no idea because I deleted the original video, but its in Germany
Its in Saarlouis, Germany
m.ua-cam.com/video/sDnyPCwv_30/v-deo.html&pp=ygUsc2FhcmxvdWlzIGdlcm1hbnkgN3RoIHN1bmRheSBhZnRlciBwZW50ZWNvc3Q%3D
Personally, i feel like the mass should he a mix of the two. I like the chant and the great reverence and bowing along with incense at the beginning of the latin mass, but I'm not a fan of the readings in latin. I also love the gloria when it is a good version. I think some are too mild. It should be grand, but i understand if some churches can't afford massive organs and choirs.
I also dont understand standing ad orientum. Ibthinkbthe preist standing toward the congregation is fine. He's standing persona christi. I don't think christ would turn his back towards us.
The traditional Mass is, as it's in the name, formed through the passing on of the ancient liturgy. Any merging of the two might look more like the traditional Mass, but the essence of the traditional Mass will be lost. It will eventually succumb to the same problems as the current Novus Ordo.
Let it be an act of humility to learn to appreciate the aspects of the traditional Mass that you don't like at the moment.
@nathanvangoor4979 I will do what a catholic should do and assent to the magesterium and the pope and take part in the mass they have decided because they have the authority and the devine office instituted by christ. Who am I to make my own rules.
Thanks for this. My take is, as I understand it historically, it's within the rights of the Church to institute a new rite. For example in the slavic world a vernacular rite was instituted at the time of Cyril and Methodius, I think. But, 2 things about the NO; first, I think the suppression of the Latin Rite is not withinthe Church's rights; Second, comparing the above example of the slavic vernacular, I have the impression that there has to be a proportionate cause to promote a new Rite. It seems as if there was no cause and therefore Latin Mass was forcibly suppressed because the masterminds of the project saw that the normal Catholic raised with the Latin Mass would naturally reject the NO; there was no natural reason for him to adopt it
@SanctusPaulus-ic5gl I am aware of the removal of prayers, (I almost only go to Latin Mass now and after following along with the Priest for a few years, I am starting to gain a deep appreciation for it.) I think, however, to say that the motive was to please the protestants is a guess. Unfortunately motives are hard to deduce and when a group collaborates there are often mixed motives, both bad and good. Maybe some of those involved wanted the laity to be holier, and others wanted to please the protestants, and others wanted to revile God? I don't know but I am trying not to pretend to know what I don't.
@@jasonbernard5468 Now they (the harlot) will show the novus ordo sectarian rite imitating the Roman Rite Mass, because their people do not care to understand if they are valid priests or not. Remember... Satan always fails trying to imitate God.
@@jasonbernard5468 We don't need to understand everything, just open your eyes and look at the fruits, you will see what is from God and what is against God.
+JMJ While this NO may be reverent, the problem is that the next priest that comes in can jettison the reverence in favor of "Mary Did You Know?" and all that goes with that. A reverent NO is a rare phenomenon indeed. Sadly the rotten fruit includes Catholic ignorance of the Real Presence, sacrilegious handling of the Most Blessed Sacrament, nonexistent infant baptisms and an endangered holy priesthood. May Our Mother of the Catholic Priesthood inspire these courageous servants of our Blessed Lord.
It's hard to compare what the novus ordo is capable of with how it's usually done.
The entrance, offertory, and communion propers should be done rather than hymns, and ideally chanted/sung. Alternatively, the offertory can also be done silently
The Responsorial Psalm (or the alleluia tract or gradual psalm) and the Creed can also be chanted/sung in a more traditional way as well as the Eucharistic prayer.
Lay readers are definitely not a strong suit of the novus ordo, but I can only think it to be an improvement that the readings are in the vernacular in addition to the laity being more actively involved in participating. With chant and allotted times for quiet in the Eucharistic prayer and after communion I think priests can easily foster a spirit of contemplation comparable to the TLM.
That's just my two cents. I think the future is going to be a novus ordo done according strictly to the ideals of the rubrics. The whole idea that we're going to return to the Latin mass exclusively isn't realistic or useful. Even if you think the Latin mass is in some way superior, that doesn't mean that the novus ordo doesn't have its strengths and hasn't worked for bringing the faith to people of different backgrounds.
It's good that a video like this tries to be fair instead of finding the absolute worst example of novus ordo and comparing it to a done-up TLM. I am convinced a lot of TLM-only goers simply haven't seen a very well done novus ordo.
FYI.At the TLM the priest reads the epistle and gospel in the vernacular before the homily after he makes the announcements. Active participation...so misconceived by the modern church.
+JMJ The wide ranging optionality of the NO makes your suggestions impossible. Control of the liturgy remains with the presider. Moreover, the NO eliminated 87% of the beautiful orations of the TLM. If the Church were to eliminate the optionality it should solve the problem by simply reverting to the TLM. The NO is way to susceptible to manipulation for convenience or laziness and abuse. It is counterproductive to have girl altar servers. They cannot be priests. Why are not boys encouraged to serve? The receipt of Holy Communion is sacrilegious in many churches thanks to the permissive NO. Another common abuse is men wearing flip flops and shorts to holy Mass. That is an insult, sacrilege and blasphemy as if the Mass were all about our 21st century whims, comfort and convenience. NO to the NO. Return to the Mass of the Ages. O Virgin Mother of God, we fly to your protection and beg your intercession against the darkness and sin which ever more envelop the world and menace the Church.
Novus ordo can be great!
Wonderful
It can be celebrated well but a point I was trying to make with this is that's it's still missing the prayers at the foot of the altar, the last gospel etc.
Also instead of the priest facing God and praying to him, in the New Mass he keeps facing the people from his chair.
@Nicklas you do realize it's more ancient to not have the prayers u mentioned right?
@@anthonybui4622 This false antiquarianism you espouse was directly condemned by Pius XII. Tradition granted us a missal of incomparable beauty and majesty. We do not know exactly what an ancient liturgy looked like and we could never possibly reconstruct it, neither should we desire to for the Holy Spirit granted us a missal that is truly ineffable.
@@JoeMode213 exactly!!! all of the Novus ordites are constantly saying "this is more traditional" with absolutely no proof whatsoever
@@CatholicNicklas Because a jewish meal prayer and a botched epiklesis are certainly more "historical".
Buena tarde yo y mi esposita somos católicos tradicionalistas, respetamos mucho a los hermanos católicos de la misa novos ordos, mi abuela paterna paterna católica tradicional, acudir todos los domingos a nuestra santa misa tridentina la misa de siempre llena de tanta espiritualidad una conexión con el centro de la celebración nuestro señor Jesucristo, los sacerdotes y seminaristas con un profundo respeto entorno a la santa eucaristía, recibir a nuestro señor Jesucristo de rodillas con profunda devoción y amor, Dios nuestro señor Jesucristo 🙏 conserve por siempre nuestra santa misa tridentina❤
Too bad versus populum, vernacular, common hymns, and total lay participation is what the current regime wants from the liturgy. The traditional NO is a pipe dream
Pius XII was the pope who allowed vernacular hymns in the first place. There is nothing wrong with versus populum and the increased active participation of the laity.
@@francisobi6851 There is something wrong with versus populum and the 60s idea of active participation of the laity. Versus Populum is foreign to all historic, apostolic liturgies. It carries much theological significance. “Active participation” is something foreign to the the theology of the liturgy as well.
@@gch8810Jesus himself celebrated the first Mass versus populum. Ad orientum worship is still good though and was used for most of the church’s history.
@@francisobi6851 Agree
@@gch8810 That's not true
I don’t see any issue with the right side. It’s truly a hermeneutic of continuity but the Canons of Saint John Cantius would’ve been a more fair comparison.
What would have happened to the Roman Catholic Church had Vatican II and the Novus Ordo not been implemented? Would vocations have gone down, Mass attendance declined, obedience to Catholic precepts diminished? Can we argue that part of the reason why the Church is stronger than ever is because of the Novus Ordo?
i wouldn't say that the hurch is stronger than ever
While I do sympathize with the Tridentine Rite, and I attend it from time to time, I am inclined to believe that the Mass according the liturgical books promulgated by Paul VI are spiritually superior. To the people who believe that Pius XII (of blessed memory) was some ultra-conservative Pontiff, let me just say he extensively opened the door to the reform. Was he wrong to promulgate a new Holy Week Rite which is based on the restoration of ancient forms? Was he wrong in allowing laypeople to read the Epistle AND Gospel in the vernacular while the Priest read them quietly in Latin? Was he wrong in allowing vernacular hymns during Low Masses? You cannot read Mediator Dei and think Pius XII was not open to liturgical reform, as throughout his Pontificate, he emphasized the new Liturgical movement as a sign of the Holy Spirit in our times.
The Mass on the right is very beautiful and my parish also does very beautiful Novus Ordos with Gregorian Chant. Time and time again the Church, even after the Second Vatican Council, has called for celebrating the liturgy with due reverence. Examples of this may be the GIRM, Musicam Sacram (1967), Redemptionis Sacramentum, Liturgiam Authenticam, Desiderio Desideravi, the list goes on.
Also what's with all the name calling? "NO attendees" "Novus Ordites" how does this help anything?
The Novus Ordo is not spiritually superior.
Reverent Novus Ordo masses with Latin and Chant are few and far between.
Everything good in this Novus Ordo was copied from the Latin Mass, and there was still a lot wrong in it.
The novos ordo mass, no matter how reverend they claim it to be, is to is still a protestantized mass and therefore still falls short of a true Catholic Mass.
What's this bs about "while the Pastor of the Church..." if this is a Catholic mass there is NO pastor whatsoever - this tends to call the whole thing into question.
That may or may not be an American thing, we may have a couple priest assigned to a parish and they're both parish priest but one will be "pastor" of the parish and another "associate pastor" or something to that affect.
@@CatholicNicklas in Australia it's priest, and assistant priest
For me, there is no reverent Novus Ordo.
The mass on the right is more reverent because it is the ordinary form in which Jesus Christ as head of the Church prescribes the latin rite of His Church to celebrate. The one on the left, is not. Therefore it is inferior. There is no amount of latin or direction facing or incense or anything that can make a mass reverent. The only thing that can is uniting whatever we do to Jesus and nothing more closely unites our actions in the mass to Jesus than by reverently celebrating the ordinary form of the mass as it is ordained by Jesus Christ who is the head of the Church.
It's not organic development, it is a rupture from tradition. You seem to have the positivist view of obedience that came into existence under the Jesuits. It's better for souls to take the prudential position and do what is best for souls, which is why Pope Benedict freed the Latin Mass and the prudential position is also why Lefebvre did what he did. Also the Latin Mass has never been abdicated!!!
@@CatholicNicklas this view of obedience comes from St. Ignatius of Antioch who tells us to follow the bishop as Christ follows The Father. This is all throughout the Church Fathers. It is also the view of obedience *Trent itself* endorses. What is more organic than an ecumenical council called by Christ, who is the head of the Church, for liturgical reform? This isn't an emperor imposing a foreign liturgy on the Church like has been attempted in the past. This isn't rogue factions disobeying the Church. This is the spotless holy bride of Christ who is informing of the bridegroom's desire for His Church to celebrate this ordained ordinary form of the mass.
*The* Latin mass can only be described as the prescribed mass of the Latin rite. The ordinary form is The Latin mass. Variants of The Tridentine form are latin forms of the mass. But none are the prescribed ordinary form. Therefore they are inferior to the form which Jesus Christ for our good tells to celebrate ordinarily. Your heavenly Father knows exactly what you need, trust Him when His Church binds and looses.
Pope Benedict didn't free anything. He permitted for a time to allow priests to celebrate other forms of the mass. It was with full good intentions and served its purpose for a time. But this also has caused confusion as people seem to believe there are multiple ordinary forms of the mass. That is impossible. The unity of the Latin rite *is* its liturgy. That is what makes rites distinct from one another. Essentially what would've happened is the Latin rite would splinter. For us to be proper custodians of the tradition handed down to us it was essential for Pope Francis, who is the central point of unity for the Church, to bring unity to the ordinary celebration of the Latin rite of the mass. Not just restricting tridentine forms of the mass, but also ensuring everyone follows the mass as it is prescribed by Jesus Christ who is the head of the Church.
@@mikethemonsta15 Unconditional obedience was not what St. Ignatius of Antioch was describing in his letters. What you are espousing is a Jesuit mindset. The majority of the Church is not supposed to obey their superior like the Jesuits are.
@@CatholicNicklas Read Ecclesia Dei lol if you really have a positive view of Lefebvre. Here is what Paul VI had to say about disobedience to the reformed liturgy:
"And this is all the more serious, in particular, when division is introduced, precisely where congvegavit nos in unum Christi amor , in the Liturgy and in the Eucharistic Sacrifice, refusing to comply with the norms defined in the liturgical field. It is in the name of Tradition that we ask all our children, all Catholic communities, to celebrate the renewed Liturgy with dignity and fervor. The adoption of the new "Ordo Missae" is certainly not left to the discretion of the priests or the faithful: and the Instruction of June 14, 1971 provided for the celebration of the Mass in the ancient form, with the authorization of the ordinary, only for elderly or infirm priests, who offer the Divin Sacrificio sine populo . The new Ordoit was promulgated to replace the old, after mature deliberation, following the requests of the Second Vatican Council. Similarly, our holy Predecessor Pius V had made the reformed Missal obligatory under his authority, following the Council of Trent."
"It is with profound bitterness but with paternal hope that we turn once more to our confrere Monsignor Marcel Lefebvre, to his collaborators; we invite them to think of Christ's grave warnings about the unity of the Church (cf. Io . 17, 21 ss.) and about the obedience due to the legitimate Shepherd set by him in charge of the universal flock, as a sign of the obedience due to the Father and to the Son (cf. Luc . 10, 16). We await them with an open heart, with arms ready to embrace them: may they know how to rediscover the path of unity and love in humility and edification, for the joy of the People of God!"
Here is Pope Benedict about Ecclesia Dei Commission:
"*But it must be stated quite clearly that it is not a matter of going backward, of returning to the times before the 1970 reform*. What is in question is instead a generous offer of the Vicar of Christ wishing, as an expression of his pastoral will, to place at the Church's disposal all the treasures of the Latin liturgy that for centuries nourished the spiritual life of so many generations of Catholic faithful. The Holy Father wishes to preserve the immense spiritual, cultural and esthetic treasure linked with the old liturgy. Recovery of these riches goes together with the no less precious riches of the Church's present liturgy."
Isn’t the whole concept of an ordinary and extraordinary form an innovation in of itself same thing with a low vs high mass ? How come the eastern rites didn’t have any of these problems until recently, all eastern rites were exclusively ad orientem and sung there was no ordinary or extraordinary form there was always a standard.
the Roman rite as it has been reformed by Paul VI is superior. gone are the out of place accretions like prayers at the foot of the altar and last gospel. restored is a fundamental unity between priest and people as together celebrating the liturgy, in which the words of Christ are spoken to everyone and not secretly, and for the edification of all the liturgy is typically in the vernacular. it's a shame that in the attempt to be "reverent" in the reformed celebration above, they are importing pointless practices like lifting up the priest's chasuble.
I’ve never met a liturgy guy that strongly prefers the new Mass… I’m honestly mind blown. But I would just push back and say you should read ‘nothing superfluous’. That book goes into why and how every little thing in the Latin Mass has profound significance.
What a regarded statement.
Paul VI replaced the offertory with a Jewish blessing before meals. You see, the traditional offertory made it clear that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass was a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins. Martin Luther hated the Catholic offertory of the Mass more than anything else and said it made the Catholic Mass worse than adultery or murder. So Luther dropped it in his Protestant service and all you lovers of the Novus Ordo are just wanna be Lutherans following in the hell bound footsteps of Martin Luther and Paul VI.
@@semperteamabo99 the "traditional" offertory is theologically misleading and out of place. it implies that the bread and wine before the words of Christ are spoken are already a sacrifice offered to God for sins. the reform was correct to remove it, and the new prayers are superior.
@@CatholicNicklas I already know about the traditionalist way of explaining how their patchwork liturgy is perfect, I don't need to read a book about it. trads will endlessly say that every repetition, every gesture has some spiritual meaning. but it's not true. the lifting up of the chasuble for the elevation, for example, comes from a time when chasubles were much heavier so they needed to be lifted to free up the arms. most of the cases where the priest repeats something the choir has already said or is saying (e.g. introit, Creed, Sanctus) come from the combination of the solitary Mass of one monk with the conventual Mass. in a time before, these parts of the liturgy were only done once; now, thanks to the reform, the original norm is restored.
even the reverent novus ordo is still terrible
It's not fair to compare it when the latin mass has a big organ and choir. Novus ordo masses that have that are fantasticly beautiful
@@alternativefactory7190 The unicorn of unicorns
No it’s not. When it is celebrated reverently it is beautiful. It fed the spiritual lives of saints like JP2 and mother Theresa so it can’t be all bad.
@@michaelryan3960 agreed. This guy is the reason why pipe francis restricted the latin mass.
@@alternativefactory7190 yes you are right. The TLM is beautiful and all of the restrictions should be lifted but it is because people are not identifying themselves just as catholic but rather "Latin Mass Catholic' and other titles that divide the church.
I am sorry..but no comparison. The words are NOT the same. Therefore, the theology is not the same.The sacrificial language has been removed. You can put lipstick on a pig...but it is still a pig.
This most reverent Novus Ordo, found nowhere in the world. This is very rare case. Why? Cause it's not taught in seminaries. The seminaries teaches clown mass. Moreover, the video on the right is ACTUALLY an abuse of Novus Ordo, because Paul VI recommend facing people all the time.
No seminary teaches clown mass, you chronically online radtrad.
Others who celebrate the Novus Ordo very well are the Heralds of the Gospel