What is the Future of the Novus Ordo? w/ Dr. Richard DeClue
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- Опубліковано 30 чер 2024
- 📺 Full Episode: • All Your Vatican 2 Que...
Richard and Matt talk about Traditionis Custodes. What is the future of the Novus Ordo? What is the reality of the Liturgy Wars?
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I sing tenor in a Schola for the TLM. I have asked my local NO priest numerous times if I could implement Sacred Music, Chant and Polyphony to just one Mass a week. I have been stonewalled. Very disheartening. Meanwhile, innumerable amount of parishioners have been asking for the same thing.
Funny enough, at least at my Parrish, we started down a road (for about 6 months) of traditional music and some chanting but it was the older members that asked to have the contemporary music back. At least for us, it’s a generational thing that is more a matter of time in order to reverse traditions in trends than what the magisterium is pushing. Remember, a Pastor is concerned with the majority of tastes for his congregation than the few random outliers.
At my Novus Ordo mass our priest has begun incorporating latin music. He has been at the parish two or three years now. I read and announcement today that for the Feast of the Immaculate Conception there will be Greek too.
@@TexaSurvivalactually, 0% of the priest's job is catering to "tastes." His decisions are supposed to be based on what would be best for the Worship of God
I write emails to my bishop and priest on these issues all the time. My bishop can't wait for me to leave his diocese.
😂 keep writing him.
God bless you! We should ALL be doing this… even though I criticize DeClure - we are all to blame. 8:25 he talks high praise call for reverent Novus Ordo Mass… BUT “inertia” is to blame 🙄 Small persistent continued changes do NOT stifle the liberal modernists though! Without any true WILL to conserve and preserve the flame 🔥 of reverent traditions… The Mass continues to be watered down 🚿 to near scandalous Protestantism for decades. This is Exactly why conservatives LOSE and liberals WIN over the decades… they lack the WILL to change - even if it’s a “return to authentic and reverent Church tradition”.
Tell him that you won't tithe and will encourage others to not tithe.
Our former pastor said absolutely not when he was asked about getting a Latin mass, then the next pastor implemented it..
Good for your new pastor! All parishes in Lincoln, NE archdiocese have a kneeler for receiving the Eucharist! (At least one small step!)
To your point 8:25 where DeClure seems like a 🐺 in 🐑 clothing… talks high praise call for reverent N.O. Mass… BUT “inertia” is to blame 🙄 🤯 Small persistent continued changes do NOT stifle the liberal modernists though! Without any true WILL to conserve and preserve the flame 🔥 of reverent traditions… The Mass continues to be watered down 🚿 to near scandalous Protestantism for decades. This is Exactly why conservatives LOSE and liberals WIN over the decades… they lack the WILL to change - even if it’s a “return to authentic and reverent Church tradition”.
Pope Francis has done more to make me a Traditionalist than anyone and for that, I'm thankful. My territorial diocesan parish is fine, no huge abuses; it's just irreverent with bad music, people constantly talking before/after (and sometimes during Mass), deviations from the Canon, applause erupts at different times for "the choir" or some other reason. Sick of the people-centered worship. Joined our diocesan TLM 4 months ago and LOVE it! The Liturgy matters for crying out loud. The TLM actually forms me; my understanding, my mind and heart, it makes me want to be better - behave better - in my daily life. I cant imagine going back. You can keep saying "oh just have a reverent novus ordo" but that's inherently the problem; it's open to deviation, becomes about the priest or choir, etc. Anyway...pray for the Holy Father...daily.
People talking before and after mass, and being involved in the Church is a positive, what are you talking about?
Mass is done as a community for a reason. The brethren shouldn't just go to spectate worship, but participate in worship.
It's good to improve your personal prayer life, but that's just one facet of Christianity, and not the one Jesus emphasized the most.
When you pray, say: OUR Father!
@@alonsoACR well I knew that was going to raise the ire of someone. Yes, we are there as a community. The principal reason for being there is out of justice to render to God proper worship for His sake. A proper attitude of the faithful to that end would be recollection and reverent silence. I sense a greater unity with my fellow parishioners at the TLM vs at the Ordinary Form, as conversations at the latter are us-focused, generally raucous, distracting and disquieting. If you're able to maintain your inner calm amidst the storm, God bless you! You also assume that I would be "spectating" at the TLM. Nothing further from the truth. My mind and heart hasn't been so engaged in years.
@@AppealToHeaven Recollection and reverent silence being the "proper" attitute would render Early Christianity and 1st Century Judaism to be improper. The singing of Psalms is an ancient thing. Early Christians would be outraged at the removal of the Sign of Peace in the TLM. In the Early Church you wouldn't just sing together, but give a greeting or a kiss to those near you, share the Wine, share the Bread, read much more Scripture (especially Old Testament). What the TLM does have over Novus Ordo regarding music is the lack of instruments. But that's it. Gregorian Chants are medieval.
While the TLM includes the word "Traditional", it's in fact not anywhere near the Early Church in time and only partially practice.
I'm not saying Novus Ordo is closer to the Early Church, just that it has many elements of it, including the participation of the parishioners.
Wanting absolute silence and a focus on contemplation is an innovation. If anything, leaving that is a return to Tradition.
Absolutely agree. I came back to the faith about a year ago. Started going to latin mass maybe 6 months ago. I love it. I'll go to NO masses sometimes during the week but on Sunday it'll always be latin mass. I'll never change that. There's something to it, it's powerful. I'm glad others are having similar experiences. Not sure why so many people are against latin mass
@@alonsoACRhave you seen Mass of the Ages and how our Mass was absolutely gutted of pages and pages of prayers and the rituals, all deeply imbued with rich meaning? And how we pray effects and affects what we think and how we pray. I feel like I've been cheated of my patrimony.
We, collectively, need to talk about whether pastors should be moved every 4-6 years. I think they should make it 10-12 years at best. In our diocese, the two places where the pastor had been there a dozen years had huge flourishing parishes (that started from nearly closing).
I think that's up to the bishop, isn't it? My parish changed priests right before the pandemic and the previous one had been our priest since before I was born (I'm 20)
This is the choice of your Bishop. At my parish, the previous priest had been in the role for over 20 years until he retired.
If a priest you like is about to be changed you can just go ask your bishop to keep him there.
But, brother, remember that good priests that can make a parish flourish could also help make _other_ parishes flourish. I'd say the flourishing of the parishes you mention may just be because of the priest's capabilities, and good ones are good to rotate. Sometimes. It's up to the bishop.
In our diocese every priest is moved to a new diocese every 2-3 years. This is done to keep gay pedo insurance premiums lower: its supposed to prevent/ hinder grooming by preventing priests from developing any close bonds with anyone.
In England it’s common for most priests to be moved every year/2 years unless they are in charge of a large parish
there is a reoccurring pattern that neither matt nor his guests attend the novous ordo
I have worked in Catholic parishes for over 25 years. As a classically-trained musician who went back to school for a degree in liturgical music, and who invested in learning the organ and how to sing Gregorian chant, it is heartbreaking to me how few priests will stand up for good liturgy and good liturgical music. The liberty with which priests--young and old--dismiss clear rubrics from liturgical books and directives from the General Instructions is scandalizing to me. If the priest isn't already personally opposed to Latin, chant, or organ in the liturgy, there will likely be parishioners who raise a huge stink about it---seemingly often ones with deep pockets. School faculty members are also often hostile toward exposing children to traditional Catholic music because they view it as inaccessible, as if children would need dumbed-down music to entertain them more. We NEED the bishops to defend Church teachings and documents on liturgy. We NEED priests to *educate themselves*, respect, and IMPLEMENT the directives given about music and liturgy in the Church Documents, and we need them to, in turn, teach the laity who seem to think that their personal preferences should be able to dictate how the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is prayed. The culture of personal preference is causing generational schisms in music. In one family, the grandparents only want to hear Boomer music from the 70s and 80s, then the next generation only wants music from the 90s and early 2000s, then you get the millennials who almost exclusively hear Praise and Worship music at Mass and/or Eucharistic Adoration, and so on. And they can't all worship side by side without each of them roll their eyes with suffering at having to endure music that *they* don't personally enjoy that the other generation requires. If a hermeneutic of continuity exists in Catholic music, it has been utterly destroyed by Vatican II.
And so, you are complaining about the tail wagging the dog? I am an amateur organist whose career was in teaching. It is insanity to think one can make a living in church music (you know the kind that once anchored civilization) in today's church. Listen to the theological content of many clergy, they are the incarnations of
Barney does God. I am not surprised their understanding of our rich, divinely inspired musical heritage is non existent. As to the laity...it's THEIR CHURCH, in case you missed that. They would never tolerate the uninformed and sometimes ignorant telling them how to do their secular jobs but once on the parish council the god of surprises infuses them with an encyclopedic knowledge of how the liturgy is to be done...as long as its after 1970 and does not involve thought, only feelings. Because the clergy are no better educated than they, it is useless to protest. I remember telling everyone at a parish council meeting that I refused to market the Mass like dish soap. My only hope is that this will shorten the time loyal Catholic church musicians spend in Purgatory.
Same for any aspiring artists of any field involving anything sacred in the Church, the disregard for skilled people who have a genuine desire to apply the traditions of the Church in their own scope of action is insane, not to mention the ever looming threat of having your beautiful painstakingly made woodcarving, painting, vestments, sculpture be completely wreckovated into the nearest garbage bin!!!
So glad to hear we have traditional classical and Gregorian chant musicians… would LOVE to hear them in mass local to me!!! ❤✝️🎼
I really appreciate this conversation because you guys are actually having a dialogue, not perpetuating an echo chamber (which there is a lot of among Roman Catholic and other Christian UA-camrs). He is presenting thoughtful alternatives to the usual talking points, and all of us need more of that.
I agree on the thoughtful dialogue… however must critique 8:25 where DeClure sounds like a 🐺 in 🐑 clothing… talks high praise call for reverent Novus Ordo Mass… BUT “inertia” is to blame 🙄 Small persistent continued changes do NOT stifle the liberal modernists though! Without any true WILL to conserve and preserve the flame 🔥 of reverent traditions… The Mass continues to be watered down 🚿 to near scandalous Protestantism for decades. This is Exactly why conservatives LOSE and liberals WIN over the decades… they lack the WILL to change - even if it’s a “return to authentic and reverent Church tradition”.
"If the faith is in imminent peril, prelates ought to be accused by their subjects, even in public." - St. Thomas Aquinas
"The greatest obstacle in the apostolate of the Church is the timidity or rather the cowardice of the faithful." - Pope St. Pius X
The idea that the Holy Father needed to issue Traditionis Custodes because of these massive attacks on the recent Council is pure sophistry.
This goes much deeper.
Yes, yes, yes. I’m totally sick of it, tbh.
The more you talk about Taylor Marshall, the more people will flock to him.
Another note.
It sounds out of touch when you tell people they need to stop complaining about the Novus Ordo and that they need to attend it when you yourselves don’t even attend it.
I've seen many say people should stop complaining about the novus ordo when they don't even attend the Roman rite at all, novus ordo or tlm, so many attend eastern rites
@@Adam-fj9px what are your thoughts?
Do they attend eastern rites because they want tradition that they are not getting at the Novus Ordo?
@@beatlecristianI think its partially that, but it also means they can't get labelled an evil radtrad because they don't even attend the tlm, whilst criticising the people who do and have to suffer through this
@@Adam-fj9px that sounds duplicitous to me.
@@Adam-fj9px 8:25 DeClure seems like a 🐺 in 🐑 clothing… talks high praise call for reverent Novus Ordo Mass… BUT “inertia” is to blame 🙄 Small persistent continued changes do NOT stifle the liberal modernists though! Without any true WILL to conserve and preserve the flame 🔥 of reverent traditions… The Mass continues to be watered down 🚿 to near scandalous Protestantism for decades. This is Exactly why conservatives LOSE and liberals WIN over the decades… they lack the WILL to change - even if it’s a “return to authentic and reverent Church tradition”.
Asked my pastor, got called a heretic.
At a meeting for the "Eucharistic Revival" stuff, I planned on suggested altar rails and possibly Ad Orientem to increase reverence of God with our body language. I didn't even get the chance to suggest it, the meeting leader said "and don't mention altar rails or anything like that, it's not happening" right at the start. I have no idea what we're supposed to do if everything we suggest and try is "heretical/not in the spirit of Vatican II" but also we're not supposed to leave the parish or complain about it. The reality on the ground isn't as bad as some online trads paint it out to be, but it's way less rosy and simple than the online Catholic commentators (who don't even go to the NO) make it out to be
@@eabm1984nobody likes a smartass.
@@eabm1984 Really? Asking about celebrating our parish's 150th anniversary on its feast day with chant and a eucharistic procession is heretical? Good to know.
I'm sure we'll all be called heretics eventually.
@@LaserFace23 Yes it is bad, it just doesn't look like that yet.
It's not that the Novus Ordo isn't in Latin, it's that the whole template is surface deep and is just wrong. It's protestant, coming into the Church from the outside and going to a Novus Ordo I can't help but think, you people think God is present here and this is what you give Him? No wonder the belief in the real presence is almost gone.
Bravo!
Could not have said it any better. I have been almost converting to Orthodoxy for a long time now. I want to be catholic, but catholicism sure is making it very difficult to get into. I don't want guitars and clapping of hands and receiving communion on the hand or any of these absurd things that take place in novus ordo. This is wrong. I want a traditional, reverent liturgy, and not even my old protestant church took things so far. By now, i pretty much think there is more reverence and tradition in my protestant background than there is for most catholics nowadays, and i say that coming from a catholic country. It's horrible.
I'm not saying the people who frequent the novus ordo cannot be reverent and faithful or even saying the latin mass is the only true mass, as that is simply denying the catholicity of the church and the validity of eastern rites, for example, but not wasting any more words, i firmly believe if catholic saints from not too long ago were to see it, they would call it heretical, straight up.
@@Nich011 It's an unfortunate cross for us to carry but I'm willing to endure and remain in Christ's Church. It will be corrected one day, as it is clearly a self defeating position. It's the 1970 Hippie Mass, and will die with the generation eventually. "To be married to an age is to become a widow in the next." Tradition will overcome but we must remain faithful.
I find it interesting how bad behavior from people who attend the TLM keeps people away from TLM but you never hear them say the same about bad behavior from people who attend the Novus Ordo?
Rules for thee...
But yes. If the bad behavior of some TLM goers caused Traditionis Custodes, then what should we do with the rampant heresy, blasphemy, overall rejection of the Faith, and disobedience to the most basic precepts of Catholicism in NO communities?
I have been attending an SSPX Priory for well over a year. I have a NO parish 15 minutes from my home and our family prefers rising at 4:30AM and traveling 2.5 hours one-way to attend the High Mass in the manner most reflective of the theology of the Catholic Church. All the while, I have been on the hunt looking for all those "divisive", "rigid" and "backwardist" people that attend the TLM. I haven't found a single one. I've also been keeping a keen eye out for all those "clerical" priests. Sadly, I can't find a single one. I'm beginning to think I have to find a much more traditional society to find the REAL TLM faithful and priests. Perhaps, these SSPX faithful and priests are the real thing? (Or, maybe this modernist pope and all the revolutionary clerics post V2 have been fabricating falsities against the CC for the last 50+ years?)
You hear about it all the time, what are you talking about?
@@catholatin You haven't found a single one? Look yourself in the mirror. You are going to great lengths in order to avoid communion with a local parish which by all logic should be your parish.
Quite honestly, I value the prophetic words of our Lady of LaSalette who stated with tears in her eyes that, soon "filthy feet would be trampling on the precious body of my son." I can't imagine that taking place in any other setting than at the Novus Ordo. For that and a cringe-factor that never did leave that protestant service, I - AS A CATHOLIC - will never again endure that banal and desacralized abomination of a mass. Not even the protestants, who helped form and fashion it, will attend it. What does that tell you? @@josealzaibar5274
Excellent point at 7:50. I belong to a Carmelite parish where the Novus Ordo Masses are celebrated in just this way. And the priests take their time, which is also appreciated.
The Novus Ordo, celebrated properly of course, is extremely reverent. I attend a Novus Ordo parish with altar rails, communion received on the tongue, no altar girls, and beautiful music.
No it isnt. The NO is and remains a protestantized, gravely insufficient liturgy even when dressed up with smells and bells.
My wedding was a very reverent NO mass. The problem is that the NO is too much of a free for all. Some masses are wonderful, some are outright blasphemous, there should not be that much variance.
The Novus Ordo celebrated "properly" is still an artifice of the priest as much as a clown Novus Ordo. The Novus Ordo was meant to remove all things "reverent" from its very inception. There is no future for the Novus Ordo other than being a springboard into the Traditional Latin Mass.
The problem is that a reverent Novus Ordo is the exception not the rule
@@sergesavard636 not only that, but the intention was to make it not reverent. A "reform of the reform" NO was not what the creators of the NO intended.
Speaking bluntly, I don't know about this whole "reverent Novus Ordo" line of argumentation, it basically seems like hunting for a unicorn. Sure, I'm happy to grant that they exist, somewhere. But throw a dart at a map of the United States and go to the nearest Novus Ordo parish (let's make the odds even better, pick a nearby NO parish that has steady, healthy attendance, not a totally random one that's dying), and you have a near guarantee of:
-Folk music that was written in the 1970s, or contemporary praise and worship music that likely wasn't even written by Catholics
-More altar girls than altar boys
-A lame/out-of-touch/recycled/possibly heretical homily
-The Body of Christ is handed out, into the hand, by an inordinate amount of Extraordinary Ministers, most of whom are women. If you receive on your knees or on the tongue, you're in the extreme minority, and you will be strongly encouraged against receiving from the priest if his line is deemed too long by the ushers
These things don't INVALIDATE a NO Mass, but they're all indicative of larger problems that aren't being addressed. Especially when the argument is "Reverent Novus Ordo will win in the end! Oh me? No, I don't attend it, I'm Byzantine/Latin Mass, just like all the other prominent Catholics who try to take their faith seriously."
This is exactly it. The biggest problem with the Novus Ordo is the amount of options the priest has within the GIRM. When given the option, most use the worst.
You’re more likely to find this in the Omaha archdiocese than the Lincoln diocese except for maybe the music might not always be okay in Lincoln depending on parish. Lincoln Diocese is strictly no altar girls. And both cities have an FSSP Latin mass. I was very uncomfortable when I would go to my sister’s parish, because they use altar girls and up until I believe a year ago, they were NEVER ringing a bell at consecration at all! Plus, I always ended up with the female EMHC that was shorter than me and I prefer to receive on the tongue as I don’t like receiving in the hand. Now that I go to the TLM I stay away far from my sister’s parish.
I'm Latin American and the situation is very different here.
My country is very Catholic so I attended dozens of parishes throughout my life just in my city alone. All Novus Ordo.
- I've never heard new music. It's always the same lyrics, mandated by the Bishopric and were the same for centuries (except that they got translated). Our equivalent of Folk music is notable for being acoustic guitar alone, maybe some percussion, I've heard it a few times during the past decade. I hated it, because it sounds too casual, but it's never irreverent. My biggest issue is that the rhythm changes slightly and makes it really hard for us brethren to chant along as we often do.
- I've never seen an altar girl. I think they're banned here. Altar boys are very rare, though, It's usually a deacon who helps.
- Bad homilies are a centuries-old problem. It's not a matter of liturgy. Most of my complaints, though, are that they are sometimes not as well prepared as I'd like. One of the priests in my nearest parish likes to start with an anecdote and it very often feels unnecessary and makes the homily last forever. Which, again, has absolutely nothing to do with liturgy.
The only issue I've seen is the excess of Extraordinary ministers. But the biggest concern in my country is that we severely lack priests. Extraordinary ministers are necessary, unfortunately.
The parish I frequent has 5 masses a day and it fills up to the point that it has speakers in the front door because many have to remain standing outside. It simultaneously offers extra Sunday masses in a nearby park(!)
We absolutely lack priests. If there were no Extraordinary ministers the line would last half an hour at the least. The mass in the park doesn't need ministers though, but it's odd in its own sense with an altar on the grass and people sitting on plastic chairs (which also run out and many remain standing).
All of this has also nothing to do with liturgy. TLM won't spawn extra priests.
@alonso19989 Statistics show that traditional parishes have a larger number of vocations per capita than NO parishes.
LaserFace you seem so judgemental. I attend an Novus Ordo parish. Inordinate amount of Eucharistic ministers? what's wrong with that, you assume the homilies are heretical, the music is folk rock, our music is beautiful, we are one church in Christ, Latin or Novus ordo, you prefer hearing the mass in Latin which most people don't even understand, I don't get that. The minority your in is because it's not in English. I don't understand why traditional catholics are so critical of their own brothers & sisters in Christ. If you want others to be persuaded to the Latin rite than lead them by love not by criticism. The protestants are looking at us & shaking their heads, the world is laughing at us. We are in Christ, but the trads & the far right are dividing the church. By the way I think any restrictions Pope Francis puts on Latin masses is so wrong, let people choose their mass preferences, but let us still be one in Jesus.
This is great conversation, thank you both! My friend is a diocesan priest who used to occasionally celebrate the TLM, but now cannot celebrate it at all--particularly because in a responsa ad dubiam, it was said that the priest cannot celebrate both forms in the same day.. and of course he always has a normal daily NOM :\ and even if he could change one of the daily NOM's to a TLM, it still isn't permitted in the parish church. I know this isn't universally true, but personally/locally, I've only seen sadness and pain resulting from TC
I am fortunate that my diocese has not restricted the TLM in the diocese in its current state. However, the diocese did say no new Latin Masses. But they left us alone. And I believe that is because we always maintained a good relationship with the diocese.
Matt, I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment about ad orientum and altar rails. I would love to see these changes in my hometown. One more suggestion: a complete ban on "On Eagles Wings". I haven't heard it for years, but you cant be to careful... haha
We told several pastors and, yes, the bishop ….we hit a brick wall at every effort !
As a priest in Australia, it seems pretty certain that if I started offering Mass ad orientem with latin etc, I'd be "corrected" and possibly removed as pastor quick smart.
You would get cancelled, but you would grow increasingly closer to Our Lord. Perhaps it’s a question can I do more good flying under the radar for the salvation of souls? Or should I lead them forward on this journey that may be objectively better? Maybe both are good but one is better???
So you're abandoning the Truth for a comfortable position? That's what most bishops and priests do, and that's the reason for this whole issue. Better look up to our Martyrs who preferred to die rather than deny the Truth. That's the attitude we expect from the clergy, not complacency and docility.
Do yourself a favour and go to confession. You've judged someone and a situation you have no idea about. I offer the TLM and travel hundreds of kilometres each week to provide the Sacraments for people who largely don't appreciate it, and yet you accuse me of abandoning the truth for a comfortable life. Mine is a most uncomfortable life. I was simply pointing out how vehemently against Tradition most of the laity in Australia are, and the bishops as well. Many good priests are wasting away caught in terrible situations.
@@kyrieeleison1243 Well, you said that, not me - basically "if I did the right thing, I would be removed". BTW, if more priests took that risk, nobody would even dare to remove anyone... But it's not a Christian virtue to care about the consequences of doing the right thing. Suffering is the ultimate witness. Even Jesus didn't want to suffer, but he did obey the Father nonetheless.
I'm not saying I'm a better Christian than you, absolutely not! But I'm just fed up seeing people who allegedly left everything behind for our Lord, stopping somewhere in the middle and looking back. Really I'd rather have one brave holy priest, than a 100 "nice guys" that fill our local churches today...
If the witness of the Church doesn't radically change (or rather reappear), you will end up jobless anyway, because no one will be attending your churches anymore. The time of the "feel good" fake Christianity is over. Either we become radical like the Early Church, or we go extinct!
@@kyrieeleison1243 oh how i wish you are my priest! May the Lord grant you strength and perseverance. Its slow but the tide will turn.
I did enjoy this discussion and I agree with everything that Dr. DeClue said with the exception of the last part about contacting our priests and clergy about the problems we are seeing. I used to go to a men's conference sponsored by our diocese and that conference has gotten better over the years. A few years ago one of the guest speakers was a priest who gave an excellent talk against pornography and abortion and the LGBTQ agenda. When it came time for the Q&A an attendee stood up and complimented him on his talk and then asked why we do not hear that from the pulpit. The priest responded with the answer that Dr. DeClue gave of let your clergy know and speak up. And he literally did say don't vent on social media but bring it up to them personally. Nobody at the conference bought it and after that every question was a man saying that they do bring things up with their priests and they are ignored. But besides that, it is not the duty of the clergy to be led by the laity but the laity who should be led by the clergy. It is their sacred duty to lead their flock to salvation not to preach on what they think their congregation will want them to.
2:24 Very true. My grandfather (One of the first Anglican Use Catholic priests, way back before the creation of the Ordinariate) always told me that people who hate the Novus Ordo right now would not say that if they had been around in the 70s and 80s. And he was a very high mass kind of guy. He said that things got so much better in the 90s that you can't seriously look at most Novus Ordo masses today and call them irreverent.
And I have to agree with him even though I wasn't alive to witness the liturgical atrocities he has seen. I've been to Novus Ordo masses around the country, and maybe only one or two I could've called genuinely irreverent. Typically, if I have any criticisms, it's more about being bland than being truly irreverent.
That being said, though, I haven't travelled much in Yankeeland or California, and so I admit that I probably have not seen the worst there is to be seen.
And yet there is SOOOOO much innovation. SC is not implemented
Its wild because I've been to mass in 4 countries and over 40 US States. Ive been to many NO masses in English, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, French and maybe 3 or 4 other languages.
And the only masses ive ever been to where the Priest Faced Ad Orientum were Latin Masses, Ordinariate Mass and Byzantine Catholic DL.
Ive never seen a NO done Ad Or.
Ive seen litergical dancing, ive seen women give homilies, ive seen woman standing up next to the priest at the alter. Ive had priests invite the teens to come stand and hold hands in a circle around the alter.
Ive been to exactly a single NO parish in the US with alter rails. That litergy was pretty decent, almost there but they still had alter girls and faced the wrong way.
Growing up i was an alter server at a parish we drove past 4 parishes on the way to because the priests at those parishes were whack. As in, one time a priest gave a homily on how the gospel was about christ going on a vision quest and discovering he was God, and guess what, you can too.
Ive been Orthodox for a few years and the "worst done" Divine litergy ive been to so far would be in the top 20% of best NO Masses Ive been to.
My Parents are still Catholic and their Bishop just banned Latin Hymns in his Cathedral, shipped the tradishionalish priest to a middle of nowwhere parish after moved the tabernacle to the middle of the church and fired the Organist and hired a new Music Director who doesn't play organ, only guitar.
Its wild. And respectfully, im relieved to be rid of the NO except when attending weddings.
This is a very compelling testimony… thank you for sharing! ✝️❤️
I want to be a charitable as possible… but I get the sense this DeClure guy is full of himself, a cunning fox or wolf in sheep’s clothing. He praises reverence, but doesn’t attend TLM - wants to establish “cred” as a traditionalist… yet “inertia” of the N.O. Mass is just too much to overcome!?! Where these unicorn 🦄 reverent N.O. Masses exist… never seen them!?!
I remember years ago when I was an ordained Baptist I attended a Catholic Mass because my niece was going to be baptized. The whole time I was thinking it was like being in a Baptist Church. I didn’t know anything at this time about Catholicism or Orthodoxy. Is it what seems irrelevant liturgy that bothers traditional Catholics?
Not irrelevant, but certainly irreverent.
At this point, my attitude towards Vatican II is one largely of indifference, though with a slight mix of suspicion and contempt. And yes, I have read MOST of the documents and find nothing particularly offensive (then again, I'm also just a catechist and not a trained theologian). People who are more studied than I am have noted that councils have been invalidated before. If a century or two from now, this were to happen to Vatican II, I would not be upset at all.
For one thing, the post-conciliar Church is absolutely obsessed with itself, in my opinion. I think moreso than many Vatican II defenders are willing to admit. They think us trads are lacking in humility, but have any checks been placed on them? In the time since I have attended the Latin Mass, I've heard more admonitions of TLM attendees by priests to stop looking at and treating NO with contempt and derision than I have from NO on TLM.
For another, I think we are beyond "poor implementation" at this point. Way too much damage has been done and too many souls lost because of the fruits that have come from Vatican II. Too many people on each side are still pointing at VII and saying "everything's great!" By comparison, we are in a warm shed in a blizzard, but the doors and windows are broken and no one is fixing them. I say shut the whole thing down and take away any ammo from the heretics and innovators. If Vatican II says the same things that the Church had said for centuries prior, then who cares otherwise?
I'd even be happy with a Bishop Schneider-style line item veto.
As someone who has been wrestling with and coming up against both sides of this debate, thank you. This was a well-needed discussion and it has really provided some necessary clarity for me personally.
I can tell you as for traditional Novus Ordo being the trend; it is definitely NOT the majority
If my pastor or bishop ever wrote me back, I'd die from the shock.
😂
Re his claim that no one is going to their pastors or bishops- this is flat out wrong. Committees, meetings, begging, pleading, letters. Nothing is done.
I have been in ugly Latin mass church buildings and somehow it still felt holy against all odds. I grew up in a hallway of a NO church and it almost drove me from the faith. NO needs literally the shiniest most beautiful churches in the world and to be halfway mimicking the TLM to come close to feeling holy. Its sad, my uncle who is very religious belongs to that really small sect of lutheranism that still somehow has a communion rail. He says his barrier to tlm is that he thinks it should be in vernacular but he also knows he can get a "more conservative sermon vs NO" if he goes to his church. I told him the homily is only supposed to be scripture-based (so not political; obviously this is a problem with diocesan tlm on conservative side [altman/heilman] and the heretical churches on the liberal side [all those heretical churches in the Chicago Diocese]) and the TLM if you follow in the missal or have prayer intentions is in the vernacular whether in you mind as prayer in English or on the English side of the missal as you read.
God Bless this guy, but he is out of touch. Its false that people havent talked to thier pastors about these issues. Matt is right that most people get stonewalled.
I would attend that 7am Mass. But given the prayers in the TLM, I would be drawn to that Mass.
I asked Priest to simply allow kneeling during Covid. He said we can no longer kneel. After Covid we are back kneeling
I'm pretty sure he would be violating Canon Law by denying communion to someone kneeling.
If Richard had a button in front of him that he could press and the Second Vatican Council was completely abrogated, nobody would know it ever happened, I bet he would press it. It was a disaster, when Frank goes to his eternal reward, the Vatican needs to review and abrogate Vatican II.
One of the reasons I wanted to leave my Orthodox Church is because it’s in a different language that I can’t understand. The novo mass is easy to understand and finally understand what this faith is about. BUT I despise those who make the mass a joke
Cardinals Malcolm Ranjith has stated that the novus Ordo mass will be a footnote in the history of the Catholic Church. He gave it 50 years at most.
At my local parish we have a reverent NO Mass with the Gloria in Latin, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei. 75% of the parish kneeling for communion… we also have about 15 altar BOYS, (not girls). It’s very beautiful. We are the only church in our diocese I know that has it this way.
Most other parishes I know make sure they meet the VII quota for plants in the sanctuary.
I think the big question is what makes a Novus Ordo Mass “better”? The answer is it changing to being closer to the Traditional Latin Mass. So why not just drop the experiment and start transitioning to only TLM Masses. Start by one on Sunday in every parish. Then two on Sunday the next year, etc. Go slow, but we need to understand that no Mass reform was needed. What needed reformed was the hearts of men. I know we will lose many nominal Catholics, which is sad, but were they already lost?? Also, it will wake up the lukewarm. (Almost like the reason excommunication is used. Wake up the one on the wrong path.) I’m confident the beauty of the ancient rite will convert the world.
I agree with Dr. DeClue, the vaste majority of people are not going to their pastor or Bishops but are outraged publicly.
I've tried to reach my bishop. I've written letters. The one response I received was mockery and derision. Next argument.
I tried this and was constantly stonewalled in my diocese.
@@PK2Productions I completely understand that side of this as well and I agree that there are folks who have tried and have been stonewalled like that as well. I was simply agreeing with the sentament that many people are simply complaining about a situation rather than trying to reach out to discuss these things with anyone who, "in theory" "COULD do something". I am not saying this is everyone but I know firsthand, when I would hear people talking about these issues and actually asked them if they reached out to their Bishop, "Ah no, why bother?" Well, I understand reaching out and not being heard. That's one thing.... but not reaching out to the Church at all is a bigger problem than not.
@@aprildoucette9552Because they know it's not going to work. I tried too, multiple times, without success.
Changes for the worse happen over night; changes for the better are not made for fear.
Thank you.
Good job on the pushback Matt. I think this fellow failed the test. He was uncomfortable answering this question honestly, you could tell. I lost all Latin masses at my normal parish almost immediately after the Motu Proprio. My pastor was the model of obedience and fostering healthy attitudes towards the Novus Ordo and the Church. And yet we are all punished for other people's crimes, only driving people further towards those very small but extreme elements within the TLM. There's no two minds about it when the disparity between the irreverent Novus Ordo masses and reverent ones is so large. People abusing authority will push and push until a few under their foot lash out, and those are the ones who get netpicked and made an example of, while the abuse is ignored.
I think its possible to find reverent expressions if the NO mass in large population countries. Where i live in Europe, its impossible
Interesting. I was pleasantly surprised when I visited Portugal recently that most masses, even in rural areas, are celebrated more reverently than the parishes I've been to in N. America. At the same time, I felt no real dichotomy between 'liberal' and 'conservative' churches. The US is probably the only country where this is a major issue.
here in ireland its a huge problem.@@alepine1986
@@alepine1986 As a South American, I see so many people online talk about irreverent Novus Ordo but, honestly, I don't even know what they're talking about. I've some complaints, but they're very minor. Like how some attendants don't pay too much attention, the homilies may not be as well-prepared as I'd like, or the music's rhythm being a little different/innovative (which makes it really hard for us to sing along, I've never had the lyrics changing tho). Many of us also got kinda mad that our Bishop started allowing people to receive the Eucharist with their hands back in Covid times.
But nothing outright _irreverent._ Very weird. Must be due to your bishops? I heard Americans don't like leaders with iron fists, but a bishop does need an iron fist (just my opinion).
I think you’re reading your own take into DeClue’s response. He answered the push back well and didn’t strike me as uncomfortable.
WE SPEAK OUT TO THE PRIEST CONSTANTLY!
Some so called traditionalists won't even go to a mass presided by their local bishop. They'll look down upon it. Their schismatic bend is clear to anyone who has eyes.
Please! Seek out a Latin Mass and find the CATHOLIC CHURCH!
I plan on staying away from Novus Ordo for many years because they are so cringe and run by feminists.
I was out of town for work and went to a spanish mass (I being an english speaker) because that's all that I could make it to. That's when I realized what the novas ordo did was not bring us together but segregate us by the language our mass is offered in. All masses should be offered reverently period, but I don't see anything the novus ordo brings to the table other than division and a continual slide to irreverence. So people say "Make it reverent!" you mean like the Latin Mass? We can only make it so much like the Latin Mass before it becomes the Latin Mass. As Catholics we need to vote with our seat, where we go to mass every day. Get to a reverent mass and fight for it as long as you can.
Amen my brother in Christ! So true
So I'm curious what was the difference in the Spanish mass?
@@cruznature7545 sorry, not said as specifically in the comment I realize. What was different is that I couldn't understand the spanish, the spanish speakers can't understand the english mass. I am beginning to understand most of the latin mass and could understand it wherever it is offered around the world.
What I have witnessed in reverent NvOr masses:
-Folk type music from the 70's
- Chaos during 'the peace hug' and just before communion
-Focus in the mass as if it were a supper (the sacrificial aspect is mentioned once)
-Just 2-3 genuflections
-Almost no silence to concentrate.
A Letter to Confused Catholics and They Have Uncrowned Him explain the brutal realities that well intended Catholics who lack the courage to face, continue to deny.
Bishop Strickland is a prime example.
Well said 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽
There’s no TLM near us! I’m tired of seeing everyone talk about how great it is and I can’t even go to one. So I feel like I’m missing out spiritually
I think getting stuck in cannon law instead of vocalizing the truth in an effort to fix the Bridegroom, is the same mistake the ancient Jews made.
In Wichita KS, we largely have reverent NO masses. Not a lot of chant yet, but I see it coming. We’ve had Latin Mass parts during Advent and Lent for years. Our good Bishop Kemme is pushing for these things and in particular antiphons being sung -Introit, communion, offertory.
Ad orientum is done at the Cathedral and other parishes (a few)
I love going to these kind of masses (reverent, more traditional NO)
BUT, this is still not a substitute for TLM. The liturgy is substantially different- more prayers, more time in silence at the TLM. These things and others (particularly an altar rail) are why I will still choose TLM for as long as it is available. My relationship with God is more important than a shorter mass.
That’s wonderful to hear at least some reverence brought back to the N.O. And hopefully it can lead more to the TLM! ❤✝️
Im greatful this helped me into orthodoxy again. But im so hurt that so many truly devout catholics be victims of being villains. It feels like theres a little sister constantly getting the big brother in trouble with lies. I admire TLM catholics so much for their fervour sincerity and humility.
So you chose schism over waiting out an octogenarian bad Pope in poor health? Doesn't seem like a wise decision.
@@cfban no. I didn't choose to wait for a bad pope to end. I chose to not need a bishop that can ignore council. I chose because orthodoxy is the Catholic way. Catholicism is a sports team. I have so much in common with Catholics especially TLM, but what they have in common with each other. That is not something I can worship in.
I am in RCIA and I don't understand why Pope Francis is so against TLM. But I don't know much and who am I to criticise?
Both of you left, but you want us to stay? One example of why I had to flee to the Latin Mass after 50 years …. It’s the visual, folks, right in front of our faces …. a Sunday mass in the crypt, Sacred Heart Basilica, Notre Dame, being said for my father-in-law 100th birthday, mid summer, folk duo with guitar and tambourine in pajamas on the altar, most in pews in pajamas, not students, looking like they had just rolled out of bed, assorted summer clothes, flip flops, one of the laypeople at the entrance door seeking anyone who might be able to assist with Eucharistic ministry … dare I go on. It was a horror show. The argument the modernists bay about meeting people where they are is tripe. We are supposed to meet God worthily not the other way around. The priest as well. He flourishes ad orientem. The impact of the Latin Mass on its clergy is notable as they model to us, the laity, together. obeyance to our God, Lord Jesus Christ. NO is a chaotic environment, the bare minimum for our souls, not ordered, and lends itself not only to a dumbing down of the laity and our priests (our poor priests, I pray for them, what they are subjected to) as we accept sub standard catechesis and liturgy and over time the subsequent desert, depression, sin, and corruption of haboob proportion that has permeated The Church. It should be left in the dust where it belongs.
The Ordinariate speaks to the culture more clearly.
My home parish has 5 masses on Sunday. The 10:30 is Novus Ordo Latin. Ad Orientem with Gregorian Chant and Incense.
There is typically incense used at the 9 and the 12:30 too. Even though those are vernacular and versus populum.
The mass is actually not that crowded compared to the other masses. I live in a diocese where you don't have to travel far for reverent liturgies. And we have been doing the Sunday Latin NO for probably 15 years now.
Some of (not all, and not even most) of the people that attend that mass don't belong to the parish and the parishioners that attend that mass usually split their time between that mass and the 9 or 12 because of large families or volunteering as usher, lector, altar boy, Knights of Columbus, etc.
I'd say it depends on the parish. I do not think a NO Latin mass would explode at every parish nor in every diocese. 15 years at our parish and while it was crowded at first its about half full now. People just want reverent liturgies. And at our parish they are all very reverent.
I agree. The NO Latin Mass did not explode at my parish and the Mass that had those things became less and less attended. Another parish in our diocese also went the more traditional route and it became a mess where the parishioners became pitted against the priest and the bishop was brought in because of the contention. I do agree that people want more reverent liturgies, but that does not necessarily mean Latin Mass NO Masses.
Popularity isn't a good measure of the merits of a Mass
@@DoctorDewgong Yet, TLM Catholic always point out that their Mass are always full and this is used to bludgeon NO Catholics over the head.
@@DoctorDewgong I agree. But Matt uses it as a metric oftentimes when discussing TLM or NO Latin. By saying "look how crowded they are." I was merely saying that people don't seem to obviously prefer Latin NO over vernacular NO so long as both are reverent. Most parishes that provide the Latin NO in my area offer reverent liturgies in all of their masses. Each mass is equally crowded.
Because liturgy is just one of the elements. Latin itself won't do the trick, it's not magic. The whole modernist theology is what led the Church to this change, so this is what needs to be dealt with first and foremost. The correct traditional Catholic teaching would push both clergy and laity towards deep reverence and the TLM would quickly become the preferred option. But how is it possible if the Pope and most bishops go in the opposite direction? And they do everything they can to shape next generations of priests in the same anti-Catholic way.
Can. 1373- A person who publicly incites hatred or animosity against the Apostolic See or the Ordinary because of some act of ecclesiastical office or duty, or who provokes disobedience against them, is to be punished by interdict or other just penalties.
Here is the canon Dr. DeClure mentioned.
At 8 minutes I agree but it’s more then that, even the priests don’t know Latin they have very little formation in it, you missed 1 thing a high altar most parishes don’t have a high altar it makes a huge difference
Where in the world is he living? All the NO masses close to me are all cringe.
Sounds like a fantasy land in his mind… I have no idea. His perception of reality is completely foreign.
8:25 he also seems like a 🐺 in 🐑 clothing… talks high praise & call for reverent Novus Ordo Mass… BUT “inertia” is to blame 🙄 Small persistent continued changes do NOT stifle the liberal modernists though! Without any true WILL to conserve and preserve the flame 🔥 of reverent traditions… The Mass continues to be watered down 🚿 to near scandalous Protestantism for decades. This is Exactly why conservatives LOSE and liberals WIN over the decades… they lack the WILL to change - even if it’s a “return to authentic and reverent Church tradition”.
I’m very sorry that the show isn’t to your liking. It’s however not about you it is about God.
That is really sad. I am lucky to live in a Catholic city, the worst that has happened here is a guitar mass. Of course everywhere receiving communion in the hand (although a sizable minority receives on the tongue) but it is by and large reverent and has our Lord as the focus
The mass I go to is a Novus Ordo where the priest faces the altar, Agnes Dei is said in Latin during, kneelers are provided up front for people to kneel if they want to, and then as we end we say the St. Michael prayer. Of course this Church does also offer a TLM, but having been to both I prefer the Novus Ordo there better. It's basically the same as TLM with more English, which is what I want. Understanding AND reverence.
Given this I wish people would just petition their priests to do that, rather than this kind of horrifying attitude that "Id rather skip mass than go to Novus Ordo."
@@fij715the NO is a show, designed not to communicate the mysteries of Faith, but entertain like Protestant services. Saying otherwise is the ultimate gaslighting.
The Novus Ordo celebrated "reverently" is still an artifice of the priest as much as a clown Novus Ordo. The Novus Ordo was meant to remove all things "reverent" from its very inception. The "reform of the reform" is doomed to fail. Most importantly, it's completely unnecessary when the Traditional Latin Mass exists and it's perfectly valid. Why settle for a "reform of the reform" when we can simply go back to the Traditional Latin Mass? The only argument for the "reform of the reform" boils down to basically a sunk cost fallacy.
There is no future for the Novus Ordo other than being a springboard into the Traditional Latin Mass.
@@David-lb3tp incorporating reverent features from the TLM into the NO, such as long pauses of silence, prayers at the foot of the altar, incense, chant, etc, is as much an elected choice of the priest offering the Mass, as tambourines and 1970s music are a choice. That's the problem with the reverent NO Mass: it's as much a creation of the individual priest, as an horrendous clown Mass.
And why bother doing all of that when the Traditional Latin Mass exists?
I think the "Low Mass" should be banned if there is a congregation. Now for a "private, devotion Mass" OK.
@@DominicMazoch wow. That's a terrible take.
Sadly, the TLM is likely to go away. But the NO is just as good, even better in some respects. It is better to cultivate our love for the NO than to think that only the TLM is good and the NO is horrible. I agree that the TLM is beautiful, but the NO can be beautiful as well.
Also, the irreverent NO masses are irreverent primarily because the priest goes the rubrics/instruction. The thing about the TLM is that all the priests who celebrate it celebrate it because they love it and won't go off the actual liturgy. If we have more priests that truly love the liturgy, we wouldn't be experiencing liturgical abuses in the NO.
The TLM is not a perfect liturgy, and incorporating more traditional elements isn't putting features from the TLM in a totally foreign liturgy. It was never the intention to create a new rite, in the strict of the word. It was always the intention to reform the existing rite. Saying that anything bad in the Novus Ordo, even if explicitly condemned by the rubrics, is due to some deficiency in the Novus Ordo itself, while saying anything good, allowed or encouraged by the Novus Ordo, is void because it originally comes from the TLM, is the equivalent of saying "Heads I win, Tails you lose". In other words, its self-contradictory.
Dr DeClue needs to get a “clue”.
My local parish (the next one to my town) is very reverent its NO and its got a very strong priest. I wish i could go to TLM but there isnt one near me
This guy clearly doesn't want to ruffle any feathers. He reminds me of many of the bishops and priests. When you pushed back regarding the altar rail and ad orientum, he stuttered for a bit and realized if he said the wrong thing against V2, he might get push back from many colleagues or even his bishop or priest. He's playing it safe like most modernists do. In charity, he seems like a nice guy and seems to know the V2 documents. As great as that is, I don't see him as someone who wants to protect Tradition. He knows full well the consequences if he says the wrong thing. I will NEVER understand how anyone can go to the Traditional Latin Mass and then later (because of moving or not), attend the Novus Ordo. I have two different churches within 4 minutes of me... one is TLM only and the other NO and they are vastly different. One parish is ALL older people and the TLM only chapel are people of all ages, especially younger families with many children. One is dying out and the other is growing by the week. One looks like Catholicism and the other, not so much.
I am investigating the RCC and will join soon. I am new to all this controversy. Please help me understand. Regarding the NO, I usually hear that it’s valid and hopefully you can find a reverent NO mass. I have never heard the words rich or meaningful used to describe it. Only that it’s valid. Do the Eastern rite Catholic Churches use the NO mass?
I haven’t heard that they do.
If not, why are they not required to change the mass? Thank you for your time.
I do hope to welcome you in to the Church established by Christ on earth.
I'm not an expert by any means. It really depends on how you experience sacredness or if you even value it.
Some people prefer the more contemplative style and others don't. If you resonate with Latin, or an Eastern Catholic rite, then go for that. All the forms are valid I.e. you shouldn't feel like it's sinning to attend the type of mass that brings you closer to Christ.
@@alisterrebelo9013 thank you!
@@Jerome42001 As an experiment, try saying the Rosary in Latin and see how you feel. There are people online who can teach you the pronunciation of words. I was spiritually drawn to learn Latin via the Rosary.
I don't have access to a Latin mass but the Rosary suffices.
@@alisterrebelo9013 I will try that.
@@Jerome42001 The type of Liturgy matters 0% when it comes to salvation. The Bible and the Magisterium cannot be clearer on that. The controversy is regarding tastes.
The Latin mass is focused more on contemplation, silence and strict adherence to rubric, while Novus Ordo includes elements where the Brethren can participate and is overall much less restrictive on the specifics. Novus Ordo also has more scripture reading, more music, and very often it isn't Ad Orientem (which is when the priests turns his back on the congregation, it's an Early Church tradition based on Jewish custom, it symbolizes the priest "leading" the people to God)
It's a matter of taste. Some people think that Novus Ordo is irreverent, but where I'm from I've never seen an irreverent Novus Ordo. Anyone who tells you that you _have_ to choose is misinformed.
Try them both and see what you like. Or go East, I guess. Choose what nurtures your soul most, both in liturgy and fellow attendants. Personally, I'm Latin, so I go Latin, and Novus Ordo because I like singing worship and psalms with my brothers and sisters. I choose parishes based on the music and the homilies. I'm in the minority on this channel but the fact is, it doesn't matter.
Welcome to the Church!
If only the novus ordo masses could educate their congregations, that the vestibule area is for dropping off their worldly concerns, and shutting up into silence for the whole duration of the mass.
Also, stay silent after receiving holy communion for at least 10 minutes.
Reverence!
I like how both of talk about the Novus Ordo.....when neither on you go to the novus ordo lol
What if the pope outright denied the divinity of Christ? There have to be limits on the pontiff’s power.
"If the faith is in imminent peril, prelates ought to be accused by their subjects, even in public." - St. Thomas Aquinas
"The greatest obstacle in the apostolate of the Church is the timidity or rather the cowardice of the faithful." - Pope St. Pius X
"When lies have been accepted for some time, the truth always astounds with an air of novelty." - St. Clement of Alexandria
Canonical penalties for instigating animosity against the Holy Father? A pope loses his spiritual authority when they cut themselves off from the teaching of their predecessors. Case in point, the first pope, beginning with St Peter, in Church history not to receive sainthood was Pope Liberius, who remained silent during the Arian Heresy, however, the bishop who was excommunicated under Liberius, Athanasius, did become a saint. Pope Honorius I was solemnly anathematized, 40 years after he died, by the 6th Ecumenical Council of Constantinople. Christ, Himself, called St Peter Satan. Your first obligation, as a Catholic, is to Jesus Christ, your second obligation is to His Church, then the pope, your bishop and, finally, your priest. If any one of the last 3 divert from the traditions then you have no obligation to them, as St Teresa of Avila said "At times those who follow the pope are marching into hell." The Novus Ordo should die a quick death but the destroyers in the Vatican want it because that is what they were put there for - empty the churches, seminaries, convents. As John Cardinal Neuman said "Tolle Missae, Tolle Ecclesiam"
Seminaries are forming priests according to what the key liturgical documents actually say. Positive change is coming.
The vast majority have lost the Faith along with Rome. What can you expect?
Exactly, the spiritual discernment is gone from what I see.
All those great options in that town he lived in lol but he chose the TLM…. I love the TLM, it’s our inheritance as Catholics. Why must we be denied of something HOLY that sustained Catholics for centuries??! Did Thomas Aquinas have any issues with the TLM? (That’s a serious question)
I attend a wonder novus ordo in Spokane, WA. Bishop Daly is the head of my diocese.
Oh hogwash. Are we not allowed to call a spade a spade when it comes to the Holy Father? Is it animosity to acknowledge the truth in front of our faces?
Also, the idea that it would be horrible to "not read anything that came out of Rome since the 1950s." Did Vatican II change anything fundamental about our Catholic faith? Do we practice the same religion today as before the council? Yes? If that's the case, then why should it matter if people look to older sources?
I tried contacting with some priests and the local bishop, but none of them seems to care. They don't even care about some priests denying the reality of Christ's resurrection!
Matt, you really need to talk to the Traditional Thomist. All this seems to revolve around the SSPX and their position on the Novus Ordo. You gave us a video with John Salza, but please, please, hear out the other side. Please be open for a real dialogue, with room for real questions that explore the underpinning arguments surrounding this issue
Why is there always like these traditional moments with pints? You have these guys on that go to lengths to talk about the correct novus Ordo mass we all want to see but you all go to thē traditional mass?
No one seemed to like the Latin mass when I was a kid, but the neighborhoods liked their Italian, Polish and Spanish masses. Scott Hahn said once he wondered how many would like the LM if they always had it. Food for thought. We had one LM at our Dominican church, the noon Latin Mass was not the most attended. The 1030 mass was and the 8am was liked by some because it has no music. But then, there wasn't arguments about what was "better". A mass is a mass if done correctly. I've never seen a bad mass really.Most convents have NO and some have very simple masses without ornate things. It's internal very much also. I wish they would have LM and NO but just like some will also like one over the other, I don't want discourse over it. I agree with the music, it always can be improved. ; )
Changing the liturgy won't do a lot without proper catechesis, because people need to understand the basic theology behind it, to change their mindset. TLM with modernist theology won't work.
I want pastors to remind people, Jesus is in The Tabernacle, please take your conversations into the Narthex
STOP, STOP, STOP, Let's get real here. The Council Fathers NEVER mandated, nor recommended a "New Order of Mass! People need look no further than the council documents to understand what they actually recommended, and one thing they did mandate was "The Latin language is to be persevered", what they did recommend was that the faithful participate more fully in the mass by reciting some of the prayers in the Mass in there own language, period end of story!! What we got was something entirely different and if you know the story behind it you would understand this. With that said, we should do what Pope Benedict stated many years ago as Cardinal Ratzinger " we need a reform of the reform"! Unfortunately, when he became Pope he never did so. We should go back to the original TLM format but allow a blend of Latin and vernacular responses by the faithful.
What bugs me about discussions like this is we always find ourselves saying things like, "but, it's a reverent Novus Ordo" or, "that priest says the NO reverently." The fact that we have to go out of our way to make or find the Holy Mass reverent says something about the current state of the Mass.
It is fairly clear that the prayers of the 1970 Roman Rite have been insufficent to protect the faithful and the world from the enemy. Those who seek to abandon the current Roman Rite and return to the earlier versions are called enemies and told that they must look forward and not back, which is an argument that is to be expected. So, perhaps instead of looking to reinstate the Rite of 62 or older, we should instead call for a new Roman Rite that brings back those prayers from the older rites that are desperately needed, leads the faithful to due respect for the real presence and adds prayers to combat modernism as it has manifested itself in the church and wider western world. It is clearly time for reform and restoration.
As for "animosity" towards the Pope: Strickland, for instance, isn't doing that, he is instigating animosity towards heretical teachings coming from the Pope. Neither (or: so) is Burke. That's a HUGE difference. From 02:45: As for reverent NO masses, rest assured Francis will crush those too, or his successor - barring a miracle..
One thing I’d like to point out about the not so straightforward solution to return to ad orientum and adding altar rails is MONEY. At least in my parish we’d have to spend thousands of dollars installing rails and renovating the area where the tabernacle resides to make is suitable for holding mass ad orientum. I know this isn’t just a problem in my own church community, but people are already stretched thin financially because of the atrocity of our current administration blowing money on wars and other agendas. Not only that but a good majority of people in the Catholic church in general don’t even tithe, and I’m not here to judge them but to pretend like these solutions are as simple as a nod of the head lacks forethought about the finances of parishes spread across the US. The people who want these changes may be growing, but within individual communities it isn’t enough to foot the bill.
Mired in the mess that is the Connecticut, Hartford diocese. There is an absolute refusal to even consider requiring a traditionally reverent Mass, let alone ask for ad orientem or a railing!.
While I agree with the sentiment of enough is enough, many diocese are so far beyond that point, it is hard to not conclude that there is a schismatic end to this.
We are praying for our church. We are praying for our Pope. We are praying for clarity of direction, but in the meantime masses are becoming plain vanilla celebrations with giant TV screens and no sense of reverence, of the true presence of Christ, of the beauty that should be worship of our Lord.
Frustrated but prayerful!
New convert here. I have only attended mass at my local parish, so I have nothing to judge against, but I wanted to share my frustration with the opinion that the novis ordo is somehow invalid or less than. I left the Protestant church because the worship seemed off and after careful study, determined that the Catholic Church was the true church and offered true worship and consecrated eucharist at their masses. My frustration is that I'm being told by some within the church that it's not valid... I'm either to believe them or believe the Catholic Church. I choose to believe the Holy Spirit didn't lead me to the Catholic Church in error, but I wonder how many other new converts are confused by this. And BTW, we see this kind of preference to a certain type of worship service in the Protestant church, which leads to church hopping and church schism.
We have an FSSP community who does super psycho quick spoken mass all the time. And they talk about the reverence, and yet I find that fast way of doing mass very irreverent. For it turns something beautiful from something worth contemplating to a cantation for getting to the eucharist...
Don’t agree with alot of what he is saying. Seems like he’s being very careful on what he says
"How does one correct The Holy Father?"
I would say, Step 1 would be stay in your lane. If anyone should correct The Holy Father, it should be cardinals or bishops - and they often do! So why do we feel the need to add to the noise?
If your local parish priest has gone wrong, first speak to the deacon if you can. If your local bishop has gone wrong, first speak to your priest. It is wrong to bunnyhop all the way to The Pope! It is not your place as a layman. This is what the globalists do. They go to protest things in other nations, while their neighbors suffer in their own backyard.
There are plenty of problems in your local parish and diocese. Be humble and respond to the needs that God has put before you. Don't try to be some global superhero going all the way to the top. If God wanted you to do that, He would make you a cardinal.
Didn't know only Cardinals were ever reached by the Holy Spirit and were canonized. Don't pretend to know the plans of God, we don't. Indeed be humble as we all should be.
It's not about knowing the plans of God, it's respecting the plans he's already put in place - The Holy Spirit created the hierarchy of The Church! He made it this way for our good.
Why would God reward us with great leaders when we don't obey anyway? We want leaders that tell us what we want to hear, and never give us any burdens.
I think we in the West, especially Americans, are addicted to the spirit of rebellion. I've noticed that many Catholics who want a restoration of Christendom and Christian monarchies won't even obey their bishop on the simplest things.
Like going to a mass where the music isn't as good. I mean, come on! Is that really persecution? Or is it just being asked to carry a little tiny cross.
And once you're there, helping at your local parish, maybe you can do something to make the music better!
The problem is at the top. The clown at the top has said he wants a listening church, so let him listen. Look, the way modernists think(please see Pascendi Domenici Gregis) is that doctrine evolves by a progressive force meeting a conservation force and a new truth that is a synthesis of the two emerges. If everybody sticks their head in the sand because the progressive force is coming from the pope, by their own crazy modernist reasoning the process does not work. We owe it to the modernist pope to oppose his progressive ideas, by his own theory of how truth “evolves.” Yes, these lunatics believe truth evolves. If we don’t provide a conservation force strong enough, we will lose what was the Catholic faith entirely.
If your priest is a screw up, criticize him. If your bishop is a screw up, criticize him. And if the pope is a screw up, criticize him. Nobody in the Catholic Church, even if he is pope, has the right to bring idols into a church and lead prayers to them. And this, Bergoglio has done.
The current issues with the church are top down. in a lot of ways, you can try and fix them from the ground up, but the roof is caving in. Someone might want to attend to it. This Pope is the current reason I am leaning more towards orthodoxy on my journey back to religion.
@@Jonintheronin
The orthodox churches have their own problems. I looked into them and found they suffer from pride and end up comparing themselves to the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is the right church. Bergoglio is the wrong pope. He is at work trying to dismantle the church, but he hasn’t succeeded yet. I believe we are in what I call the Bergoglian schism. The church is fractured, but nobody wants to admit it. They think they can wait it out. My position is that unity in apostasy is worse than schism, so we should stop pretending we are unified. But, I’m sticking with the Catholic Church until they throw me out.
Im in love with the mass the world singing to my hreat and soul i feel close to the lord and it brings me to tires sometime, but i dont feel that when its in latin i just dont understand and ill probaly never learn the worlds (i have learning disability.) mass in latin would probably remove me to just doing private devotions.
I want to understand the mass and I love our priests and congregation. I don't like the sign of peace that much but no one shakes hands anymore. What I did notice though attending a Spanish speaking church once, they have a joy with the mass, the sign of peace (leave seats) and smile at you and say hello. I wish to see a 1/4 of that at most churches
Mass is not about feelings. Its about worship.
Watch Fr Robert Mcteige's Is the TLM good for priests
LOL Seriously? I am a few minutes into the video and I disagree completely with this guy that the masonic/lutheran designed novus ordo is beautiful and getting better. In practice this is the complete opposite. It is becoming more of a circus literally with priests dressing up as clowns! In my local parish alone the priest was saying we catholics need to learn how to be christian from protestants and he was quoting the homosexual advocate jesuit James Martin! That was the last straw for me, I will not take my children to that parish to be indoctrinated into sin by this priest!
Other novus ordo churches are no better, they are all into feelings and what feels good, they do not preach the truth. They teach give into your passions!
@rickcasselman7
I understand what you’re saying. I’m offering a reason why TLMers can be a bit rad about it.
Most have no clue of the history of Modernism and “Marxist social justice” that dripped into Catholicism as it was highjacked. It’s been over centuries. Esp the thinkers of the Enlightenment, the French Revolution, when communism and the Masons entered America in the late 1800s early 1900s. People in powerful positions slowly propagandizing the universities, Hollywood, etc. places of influence on the masses.
When you read the Vat II documents, you see the ambiguity of various ideas that could be taken in a few ways; whereas former documents throughout history of the popes were very solid with NO ambiguity, straight Truth. As of Vat I slight ambiguity, and at Vat II much more and you also see the liturgy of the Latin Mass was to remain and with Gregorian Chant as pride of place. It was thrown out the window. That’s why those who love the most reverent liturgy starting with Jesus and the Apostles and beautified even more over the centuries is worth defending. Although, some trade do get a bit haughty about it, but my experience, and I’ve been to many TLMs in my state & some out of state, & most are not haughty or bash N.O. Only lament others haven’t opened themselves to the TRUE liturgy with the abundant graces of order in families, respect of the clergy, increased participation in Mass and all sacraments, having big families again.
It is truly sad and has made me angry in the past. But the Lord saw where we heading and permitted it all. They say PBXVI was a surprise vote. I believe the Lord permitted that to show that the best way to worship was the liturgy of old that was stolen away.
Even Holy Communion in the hand was not supposed to be worldwide. Only for the few areas that had started it-I’m sure due to the infiltrates in the Church. Started with 2000 communists into the seminaries and of course sprinkled with masons as well.
7 out of 8 Catholics have voted on the Novus Ordo......with their feet. Have you noticed all those empty pews?
I cant watch this guy for more than the time to type this....sorry. Same for Lofton.
I am so grateful to hear that Dr. DeClue dealt with the scandalization from some Traditionalists because I have dealt with that myself. I used to appreciate the Latin Mass, but then attitudes and comments slowly turned me off from that group. When I would try and explain that to individuals, I was attacked and I was told that there was nothing wrong with the TLM group.
I would like to speak to Dr. DeClue's recommendation about making one Mass more traditional. That was done in my parish with the earliest Mass on Sundays. It had Latin, organ, and incense (due to design an altar rail could not be installed). This Mass was in place for many years and by the time the pastor left, of all four Masses on the weekend, that was one of the least attended Masses. Ironically those who pushed for a more traditional Mass, either rarely attended that Mass or left for other parishes. Lastly, at another parish in our archdiocese, the priest also tried to make it more traditional and the parishioners were so upset that there was massive conflict in the parish. The bishop had to get involved and then secular media made it worse because they wanted to stir the pot. It was a mess and in the end the more traditional priest was reassigned and now the auxiliary bishop is in charge of the parish. Sure a priest can come in and do these things, but if they are not willing to look at their parishes and find out what is best for the parish itself, making a Mass more traditional is not going change anything.
I agree with you about the attitudes being a turn off. Some of the stuff I have read from people is really alarming. I know that these comments are not representative of all people in the TLM crowd, but there is a vocal minority that do a tremendous amount of damage to their cause.
Doesn't it just say it all when there are a hundred and one podcasts discussing the church? The reality is that like the protestants, we have essentially broken into 3 denominations - the rad trad, rad progressives and the Catholic/protestant hybrids (reformed Catholics). All organizations need clear leadership that brings people together if that organization is to stay viable. Francis continues to ferment confusion every time he opens his mouth.
So in the confusion Catholics have always looked to tradition. Boomer/liberal Catholicism is not the way forward that much is clear.
I don’t have the resources to research this, but maybe you do Matt. It would be interesting to know how many theologians and “professional Catholics “intentionally seek out the Novus ordo Mass. because it seems like most of you all or perhaps all intentionally seek out the east or the Latin mass.
off the top of my head, I can’t think of a single “professional Catholic “that seeks out the Novus Ordo. I think all the famous ones on Twitter and UA-cam are Latin mass or eastern only
Dr Scott Hahn has explicitly stated his regular is the NO so thats one at least
@@d.j.p.g.b.9662 i’ve heard him say multiple times that his normal is the TLM. However, his wife Kimberly prefers the Novus Ordo. 🤷♂️
I think we all need to remember that we are receiving the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, no matter which Mass we choose to attend. Do not fall prey to the devil’s divisional tactics. There is nothing he would love more than to divide good, devout Catholics over something so insignificant. Realistically, we have a shortage of priests and we should be thankful we have Mass at all!
I have attended Mass in my diocese in which I have sincerely questioned the validity of the consecration, and skipped receiving because of it.
The TLM changed my relationship with Christ.
Its not the majority where I live